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Can Pakistan become a force in ODIs by adopting English style of Cricket?

RyanRyan10

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Possible XI

Sharjeel/Fakhar
Abdullah Shafique
Babar Azam
Haider Ali
Mohammad Hafeez
Mohammad Rizwan (wk) - floater
Imad Wasim/Faheem Ashraf
Shadab Khan
Wahab Riaz
Mohammad Amir/Hassan Ali
Shaheen Afridi

6 specialist batsmen + 2 bowling All-rounders + 2 bowlers who can slog

Great mix of Youth & experience

5 attacking batsmen in top6

Can Misbah come up with such strategy?
 
Of course, the current way isn’t working. What is there to lose?

I feel Pakistan sacked Mickey right at the time when he had just about changed the mindset of our players and they went 10 years backwards by installing Misbah
 
Possible XI

Sharjeel/Fakhar
Abdullah Shafique
Babar Azam
Haider Ali
Mohammad Hafeez
Mohammad Rizwan (wk) - floater
Imad Wasim/Faheem Ashraf
Shadab Khan
Wahab Riaz
Mohammad Amir/Hassan Ali
Shaheen Afridi

6 specialist batsmen + 2 bowling All-rounders + 2 bowlers who can slog

Great mix of Youth & experience

5 attacking batsmen in top6

Can Misbah come up with such strategy?

I think Hasan is past it....shadab is yet to prove his potential as a power hitter in ODIS......
Wahab /Rauf
Amir /Shinwari
Saheen
 
Englands way of being ultra aggressive all the way through their ODI inns worked well in UK conditions and helped them during the world cup. So yes Pakistan needs to start playing more in that manner.

However, the next world cup is scheduled to be in India where conditions will be completely different, Yes their will be small grounds and road wickets etc.. But pakistan will need to make sure they find the right way to play in those conditions in an aggressive manner.
 
Compare those names to England's 11 . England's 11 have more ability and quality. That team wouldn't compete with England.
 
Where is this guy Osama Baloch who used to bat like Virat Kohli..Is he in any of the 2nd XI team?? was really excited about him.
 
Of course, the current way isn’t working. What is there to lose?

I feel Pakistan sacked Mickey right at the time when he had just about changed the mindset of our players and they went 10 years backwards by installing Misbah

Exactly. How long was he there?

People are quick to criticize MA because they wanted their saviour Misbah to take up the role (because he such a big success in white ball cricket himself :)) )

Arthur had his flaws but the raw ingredients were in place to make a recipe of success after learning from the mistakes something Misbah is unable or willing to do.

Chalo it is what it is and we deserve mediocrity after installing mediocrity.
 
Exactly. How long was he there?

People are quick to criticize MA because they wanted their saviour Misbah to take up the role (because he such a big success in white ball cricket himself :)) )

Arthur had his flaws but the raw ingredients were in place to make a recipe of success after learning from the mistakes something Misbah is unable or willing to do.

Chalo it is what it is and we deserve mediocrity after installing mediocrity.

England didnt loose an ODI series since probably start of Baylis’ tenure in 2015 till the end of his tenure unlike Mickey who didnt won an ODI series against anyone except the lower ranked team throughout his tenure.

Mickey carried on with Malik and Hafeez in ODIs and didnt try any all rounder outside of Faheem and spon bowling all rounders. All rounders or bowers who can bat are important when a team wants to adapt all out approach from everyone as on the day it doesnt work they can provide some stability. Travis Baylis transformed the team much quickly by handpicking the players for LOIs along with selectors and Morgan. He got rid of Bell, Cook, Broad, Anderson etc. At the very start. Mickey’s transformation was slow (Even in WC 19 he kept on playing Malik over Haris in few games) and loosing test series against Srl and NZ sealed his fate.

As head coach you have to show acceptable results across the formats to remain in the position.
 
We don't have their firepower.

A more realistic model is New Zealand - they keep punching above their weight despite lacking resources of Big 3. They adapt and read conditions better than most, are a superb fielding unit and led by an astute captain who leads by example.
 
England didnt loose an ODI series since probably start of Baylis’ tenure in 2015 till the end of his tenure unlike Mickey who didnt won an ODI series against anyone except the lower ranked team throughout his tenure.

Mickey carried on with Malik and Hafeez in ODIs and didnt try any all rounder outside of Faheem and spon bowling all rounders. All rounders or bowers who can bat are important when a team wants to adapt all out approach from everyone as on the day it doesnt work they can provide some stability. Travis Baylis transformed the team much quickly by handpicking the players for LOIs along with selectors and Morgan. He got rid of Bell, Cook, Broad, Anderson etc. At the very start. Mickey’s transformation was slow (Even in WC 19 he kept on playing Malik over Haris in few games) and loosing test series against Srl and NZ sealed his fate.

As head coach you have to show acceptable results across the formats to remain in the position.

We have to remember that its not simply a case of dropping the likes of Hafeez and Malik, as they are powerful presence. With MA being an outsider, it was easier for these leeches to wiggle their way into the team.

Its a bit like YK barged his way into the 2015 WC squad when he wasn't good enough to play and then to top it off he constructed a send off for himself out in the UAE.

My point is anyone would be better than Misbah when it comes to formulating an LOI team, planning and strategy.
 
Dont forget Pakistan actually beat England at home during the WC. So the team is not far off but very inconsistent. They actually need to become more consistent they have already proven they can beat anyone in the last 2 years its more the consistency.
 
We have to remember that its not simply a case of dropping the likes of Hafeez and Malik, as they are powerful presence. With MA being an outsider, it was easier for these leeches to wiggle their way into the team.

Its a bit like YK barged his way into the 2015 WC squad when he wasn't good enough to play and then to top it off he constructed a send off for himself out in the UAE.

My point is anyone would be better than Misbah when it comes to formulating an LOI team, planning and strategy.

Agreed but to transform the team like Baylis did with England, you have to be strong headed and push your case which I think Mickey lacked and to be honest the transformation Baylis did was one of its kind. Misbah is no benchmark to measure against and doesnt have any past record to consider as well. I was comparing the tactics of most successful ODI coach in last 5 years and what things he did right vs Mickey.

Also I think ECB was good with clearly stating what they want to achieve and selectors along with coaches were appointed accordingly in a perfect manner. Also clear message was given to them along with the end goal.
 
Easier said than done.

England under Strauss had absolutely nothing to lose after that shambolic 2015 world cup exit. They had a clear plan in mind for the home world cup and appointed right people from coach and captain right down to the players to execute that.

I doubt Pakistan can suddenly unearth the Roys ,Bairstows, Butlers and a leader like Morgan out of the blue. They have a Root in Babar and a couple of good bowlers and okayish batsmen each so it can most likely go pear shaped.
 
It's possible. But wholesale culture change will require a lot of courage and political capital that current team management didn't have. The Prime minister will have to guide and impower them. :sa
 
We don't have their firepower.

A more realistic model is New Zealand - they keep punching above their weight despite lacking resources of Big 3. They adapt and read conditions better than most, are a superb fielding unit and led by an astute captain who leads by example.

We have everything. We just don’t have the Jigar to go for it. Our players are more worried about playing the next series instead of daring to play with the bravery required.

It was working as long as the bowlers were stepping up and saving our team’s mediocre batting performances, but now the bowlers have bailed out. They can’t swing or spin the ball like they used to up to 2017.

It was the same Stokes, Morgan, Butler, Bairstow, Chris Jordan, Adil Rashid and Moeen Ali who were part of an England side that was worse than the Pakistan side of 2015.
 
Agreed but to transform the team like Baylis did with England, you have to be strong headed and push your case which I think Mickey lacked and to be honest the transformation Baylis did was one of its kind. Misbah is no benchmark to measure against and doesnt have any past record to consider as well. I was comparing the tactics of most successful ODI coach in last 5 years and what things he did right vs Mickey.

Also I think ECB was good with clearly stating what they want to achieve and selectors along with coaches were appointed accordingly in a perfect manner. Also clear message was given to them along with the end goal.

If you can find 11 all rounders who can give it a good thump you become a great coach.
 
Out of the current England squad, the following players have been around since 2011-2015 (when Pakistan played a World Cup semi final and lost to world champions India and lost to Australia in the 2015wc knockout)

1. Eoin Morgan
2. Joe Root
3. Jonny Bairstow
4. Ben Stokes
5. Jos Butler
6. Moeen Ali
7. Adil Rashid
8. Chris Woakes
9. Chris Jordan
10. Alex Hales (axed in 2018)

The only notable players missing are:

Jofra Archer (West Indies fast track)
Jason Roy (South African living in England)
Curran bros (Decent players being hyped to the moon)

The second list isn’t as relevant as the first one, as it clearly mentions names of England’s current core players barring Archer and Roy. The point is, it’s not the dissent injection of players that will turn you into a world beating side. It’s your current best who have to evolve, step up and take responsibility, and remove those who are not cut for this level anymore.
 
Easier said than done.

England under Strauss had absolutely nothing to lose after that shambolic 2015 world cup exit. They had a clear plan in mind for the home world cup and appointed right people from coach and captain right down to the players to execute that.

I doubt Pakistan can suddenly unearth the Roys ,Bairstows, Butlers and a leader like Morgan out of the blue. They have a Root in Babar and a couple of good bowlers and okayish batsmen each so it can most likely go pear shaped.
roys bairstow? lol pakistan beat them in the world cup and nearly Ko'd them before the KO stages.
English players are a tad overrated. They are good yes. In their home conditions only.
 
roys bairstow? lol pakistan beat them in the world cup and nearly Ko'd them before the KO stages.
English players are a tad overrated. They are good yes. In their home conditions only.
Yes I agree. No team is unbeatable in current
 
roys bairstow? lol pakistan beat them in the world cup and nearly Ko'd them before the KO stages.
English players are a tad overrated. They are good yes. In their home conditions only.

Even Sri Lanka beat them. That's not my point. Those Roys and Bairstows are the best ODI openers going around. Whilst Warner/Finch or Dhawan/Rohit are more consistent, they're not as deadly or impactful more often than not.
 
The english model of batting is only feasible if you have a strong and long batting lineup.
Archer is englands no. 11, they have players like woakes, curran, wood etc in their lower order and legends like buttler morgan, stokes in middle order.
Their batting model can not even be implemented by india let alone pakistan.
 
I don’t think it’ll work - PAK’s core game is different.

What transformation in English team we are watching actually is not new - this was English LO tactics even in 1960s (when the Gillette Cup started as first List A cricket). May be due to the change in playing conditions, the scoring rate is different these days, but England’s ODI combination & tactics were very similar in past, which saw them making three finals (& two SF) in first five edition of WCs and they were a very good ODI side till mid 90s. Those were the days when England used a similar combination - specialist ODI batsmen (openers), ODI all-rounders & bowlers that are suited to this game - many of whom were good to great ODI players but average Test players. Derek Pringle, Dermott Reeve, Nick Knight, Chris Lewis, Neil Fearbrother..... instantly comes to mind and I am sure I can find few more. It was in between 15-20 years surprisingly England changed their LO philosophy and went for more traditional approach, which didn’t work. 18 English Counties produced highest numbers of very good cricketers, but just a level below the top tier that Aussies were producing hence in between 1990 to 2010s, they have dominated Ashes and even in ODI as well. Yes, this is a special case where players like Butler, Roy, Hales, Stokes ... have peaked together and they are playing in 300+ per condition - their aggressive tactics is working; but even in 1980s they tried Paul Downton, later opened with WK Stuart, had Ian Botham at 5; Lamb at four & Gower played the Root role. In that regard, I’ll say England ODI under Athers, Nasser, Vaughn, Strauss & Cook were different.

PAK’s core game is not batting based and it wasn’t even when they had a batting line up of Mazid, Sadiq, Zaheer, Javed, Asif, Mushtaq, WRaja, Imran, Intekhab, Sarfraz & WBari at 11 - one has to understand cricket better to realise what sort of batting depth that was - still in 1970s, only one SF..... Imran realised it more than anyone and he assembled a team that had SOLID 50 overs, which made three WC SFs under him, winning one trophy & added that with another Final in 1985 Mini World Cup & a Neheru Cup trophy on the shoulders of basically one master batsman & a decent support hands - only a fool of highest order will think that he backed Qadir & Wasim Akram because they could bat a bit as well!!! Yes, it’ll always help if you have batsmen in class of Imran, Akram, Qadir, Saqline in your bottom half .... their bowling was added bonus, we may think.

Theoretically, we can draw many scenarios and hype many talents, but I don’t think a PAK team loaded with explosive sloggers and depth with “all-rounders” is going to achieve any thing significant- they might rob ZIM statistically, but that was done with conventional cricket as well - nothing new.

May be, just for the sake of discussion, I am drawing a team with current available players for this tactics:

Fakrah, Kamran+
Haider, *Babar, Asif Ali, Sohail Akhtar, Yamin, Imad, Shadab,
Sohail Khan, Mo Amir

One can add Zeeshan, Sharjeel, Amad, Faheem, Newaz, Wahab ... in that mix

That’s a hell a f batting depth & lots of fire power all through & a decent bowling options as well ....... then think again.
 
Pakistan will never be a force in ODI cricket as long as players like sharjeel Khan are being considered by fans to be the solution
 
Our players bar Babar are not international standard. They are barely FC players and to try to play aggressively without having the talent will not end well.
 
Our players bar Babar are not international standard. They are barely FC players and to try to play aggressively without having the talent will not end well.

They do have the talent but they always looking over the shoulder and worried about getting dropped hence why they dont express themselves
 
Even Sri Lanka beat them. That's not my point. Those Roys and Bairstows are the best ODI openers going around. Whilst Warner/Finch or Dhawan/Rohit are more consistent, they're not as deadly or impactful more often than not.

they aren't. indian trio is better.

englund is good in home conditions. that's it
 
Not while Misbah is in charge. He doesn't like the power packed lineup a team like England possesses.

Instead, he favours the tactic of conserving wickets at the start and getting to something like 40/2 for the first 10 overs. Nudging the ball around during the middle overs for another 3 to 4 runs per over then trying to accelerate at the death to get to 240.

Then he wants to rely on the bowlers to defend that total but unfortunately the bowling is weaker than when he played. When it comes to chasing, you can forget anything over 280. Team has already decided it has lost.
 
I don't think its practical to emulate England. Pakistan don't have the batsman to match this approach. In England you have the likes of Morgan, Stokes and Buttler in the middle order who strike big and perform frequently. There is a dearth of modern middle order players in Pakistan, so I don't think it would work.
 
The english model of batting is only feasible if you have a strong and long batting lineup.
Archer is englands no. 11, they have players like woakes, curran, wood etc in their lower order and legends like buttler morgan, stokes in middle order.
Their batting model can not even be implemented by india let alone pakistan.

lol you guys overrated them so much. they are not that good outside England.

india will finish them in subcontinent and in bouncy conditions.

pakistam already tooled them in England.

They are not this unbeatable powerhouse.

oh Aussies beat them lol recently too.

They are good but india, Aussies are just as good overall. Pakistan can surprise them in cup competitions. Pakistan can show up and beat anyone but they lack consistency.

next world cup is in subcontinent. india and then pakistan are favourites.

Also in bouncy conditions india along with australia would be favourites not England.
 
Possible XI

Sharjeel/Fakhar
Abdullah Shafique
Babar Azam
Haider Ali
Mohammad Hafeez
Mohammad Rizwan (wk) - floater
Imad Wasim/Faheem Ashraf
Shadab Khan
Wahab Riaz
Mohammad Amir/Hassan Ali
Shaheen Afridi

There's a lot of weakness in this line up. They aren't even on the same planet as the English and you just can't compare the two.

Sharjeel and Fakhar are not good cricketers. Both have inflated intl stats from the beginning of their careers mainly acquired through pummeling minnows. Neither is reliable, especially against top drawer opposition.

How long can Hafeez continue for? He's got a year left max.

We haven't seen enough of Haider and Abdullah to know if they're truly international standard.

Wahab and Amir are inconsistent and on their last legs. Hassan Ali hasn't been on the scene for ages now.
 
Why would you adopt English style cricket? England just lost an ODI series at home.

Pakistan also beat them in the last ODI that they played.
 
There is no need to adopt english style of cricket.going forward pcb should look to induct the likes of haider ali and zeeshan. Abdullah shafiq can open with imam ul haq with babar at 3 and haider at 4 then someone like zeeshan or muhammad haris or kushdil shah followed by Rizwan. The likes of hafeez,malik and sarfaraz should not be even considered however i am more concerned about our bowling as other than shaheen and shadab there seems to be no one. Amir isnt fit enough and wahab blows hot and cold. Hasnain and rauf should be given more chances.
 
Hafeez did well in T20s I understand but his ODI strike rate is in the 70s which is far below average for this era, to play this style of cricket you would actually have to be above average . He is not a player I would think of for aggressive batting. Apart from that the line up looks good if the openers can prove themselves. One thing that England has going for them is a deep batting line up, so Wahab is not a bad choice in that case, but I think he might be too old
 
lol you guys overrated them so much. they are not that good outside England.

india will finish them in subcontinent and in bouncy conditions.

pakistam already tooled them in England.

They are not this unbeatable powerhouse.

oh Aussies beat them lol recently too.

They are good but india, Aussies are just as good overall. Pakistan can surprise them in cup competitions. Pakistan can show up and beat anyone but they lack consistency.

next world cup is in subcontinent. india and then pakistan are favourites.

Also in bouncy conditions india along with australia would be favourites not England.

No one said they are unbeatable. You don't need to come to every thread to bash England. They have an innovative strategy in ODIs which is what is being discussed here
 
Why would you adopt English style cricket? England just lost an ODI series at home.

Pakistan also beat them in the last ODI that they played.

Not sure what people try to achieve such ludicrous comments apart from wasting everyone’s time.

They are not invincible but their new strategy has paid dividends and it should be something that struggles sides should look to replicate. One has to be complete bonkers to suggest otherwise.

The defeat to Australia was their first series defeat at home in 5 years.

Since adopting a new strategy in ODIs, they thrashed Australia a dozen times including a 4-1 win in Australia which is unthinkable for other sides. They also delivered a historic thrashing in the World Cup semifinal.

Since the 2015 World Cup, they have played 16 ODIs against Pakistan won 12.

More importantly, this strategy helped them win the World Cup in particular the must-win matches against India and New Zealand in the group stage.

Other sides would have tried to play cautiously in that situation because of fearing a collapse. However, English openers took the attack to Indian bowlers who performed formidably till that point.

How many batting lineups in that World Cup would have raced to 160/0 in 22 overs against an attack of Bumrah, Shami, Kuldeep and Chahal?

They also dismantled New Zealand bowlers which was also a must-win match.

Their strategy actually worked in the final as well. People can whine about the rules but England’s aggressive intent did help them in the end.

New Zealand batted like chickens. They had 5 wickets on hand in the last 5 overs and only added 30 runs. Yes the pitch wasn’t flat but they were happy rotating the strike without hitting big shots.

On the other hand, England were always looking for boundaries even when wickets were tumbling. Ultimately, they scored more boundaries and won the World Cup.

Now I didn’t need to repeat all of this because I am sure you have enough understanding of the game to realize what the change in strategy has given England, but sometimes you have to state the obvious to people who are either blatantly trolling or have completely lost the plot.
 
Not sure what people try to achieve such ludicrous comments apart from wasting everyone’s time.

They are not invincible but their new strategy has paid dividends and it should be something that struggles sides should look to replicate. One has to be complete bonkers to suggest otherwise.

The defeat to Australia was their first series defeat at home in 5 years.

Since adopting a new strategy in ODIs, they thrashed Australia a dozen times including a 4-1 win in Australia which is unthinkable for other sides. They also delivered a historic thrashing in the World Cup semifinal.

Since the 2015 World Cup, they have played 16 ODIs against Pakistan won 12.

More importantly, this strategy helped them win the World Cup in particular the must-win matches against India and New Zealand in the group stage.

Other sides would have tried to play cautiously in that situation because of fearing a collapse. However, English openers took the attack to Indian bowlers who performed formidably till that point.

How many batting lineups in that World Cup would have raced to 160/0 in 22 overs against an attack of Bumrah, Shami, Kuldeep and Chahal?

They also dismantled New Zealand bowlers which was also a must-win match.

Their strategy actually worked in the final as well. People can whine about the rules but England’s aggressive intent did help them in the end.

New Zealand batted like chickens. They had 5 wickets on hand in the last 5 overs and only added 30 runs. Yes the pitch wasn’t flat but they were happy rotating the strike without hitting big shots.

On the other hand, England were always looking for boundaries even when wickets were tumbling. Ultimately, they scored more boundaries and won the World Cup.

Now I didn’t need to repeat all of this because I am sure you have enough understanding of the game to realize what the change in strategy has given England, but sometimes you have to state the obvious to people who are either blatantly trolling or have completely lost the plot.

Yes, correct. England's aggressive strategy and mindset has worked for them. But you also need the required resources to accomplish a plan. For example, Sri Lanka and West Indies could do well with adopting the English mindset of attacking cricket as they have an abundance of aggressive hard hitting batsmen.

But teams like Pakistan and Zimbabwe should not blindly follow the English plan as they hardly have any dynamic batsmen. Pakistan should keep following their pre- World Cup methods.
 
England's style is not foolproof. I don't think it is wise to copy it.

Pakistan have to get their own style.
 
There is no need to adopt english style of cricket.going forward pcb should look to induct the likes of haider ali and zeeshan. Abdullah shafiq can open with imam ul haq with babar at 3 and haider at 4 then someone like zeeshan or muhammad haris or kushdil shah followed by Rizwan. The likes of hafeez,malik and sarfaraz should not be even considered however i am more concerned about our bowling as other than shaheen and shadab there seems to be no one. Amir isnt fit enough and wahab blows hot and cold. Hasnain and rauf should be given more chances.


Akif javed is one to look out for but not experienced
 
Khushdil Shah smashed 35-ball 100 in the National T20 Cup. He is having a great tournament. Averages 47 in List A with a SR of 99.54.

Pakistan need to give long run to such players if they want to follow England's style of play.
 
In ODIs:

Haider, Imam, Babar, Haris, Rizwan, Khushdil, Shadab, Imad, Faheem, Rauf, Shaheen

In T20Is:

Babar, Haider, Hafeez, Abdullah, Khushdil, Shadab, Faheem, Rizwan, Imad, Rauf, Shaheen

Pakistan should try the above 11s for the Zimbabwe and NZ series and see how it goes.
 
In ODIs:

Haider, Imam, Babar, Haris, Rizwan, Khushdil, Shadab, Imad, Faheem, Rauf, Shaheen

In T20Is:

Babar, Haider, Hafeez, Abdullah, Khushdil, Shadab, Faheem, Rizwan, Imad, Rauf, Shaheen

Pakistan should try the above 11s for the Zimbabwe and NZ series and see how it goes.

Your willing to put abdullah in the t20 team but not in the odis team ?
 
In ODIs:

Haider, Imam, Babar, Haris, Rizwan, Khushdil, Shadab, Imad, Faheem, Rauf, Shaheen

In T20Is:

Babar, Haider, Hafeez, Abdullah, Khushdil, Shadab, Faheem, Rizwan, Imad, Rauf, Shaheen

Pakistan should try the above 11s for the Zimbabwe and NZ series and see how it goes.

Also hafeez should bat at 4
 
T20s against Zimbabwe
Zeeshan Malik/sharjeel
Babar
Haider
Abdullah
Zeehan Ashraf/rohail nazir
Khushdil
Shadab
Imad
Husnain
Rauf
Akif

In odis
Haider ali
Zeeshan malik
Babar
Abdullah
Rohail nazir/zeeshan malik
Khushdil
Shadab
Imad
Rauf
Akif
Husnain
 
Force and Pakistan? Absolutely not.

Unpredictable and mercurial in one off games - yes.

They are capable of upsets but not domination in any format.
They are a top side when they play at their absolute best but they will always lack consistency. this only applies to short formats though.
 
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