Can Pakistan team ever make Real Madrid or Manchester City like turn around?

[JaDed]

You guys probably didn't follow it but in my life time in Pakistan, Pakstan toured WI twice. Once in 87 (I think right after the word cup) and once in 1993 or 1994. I don't remember exactly. Each time their umpires saved the WI teams. They didn't use third country umpires in 1987 and in 1990s I don't remember but I think they were using at least one umpire from West Indies

Both the West Indies and the New Zealand teams of the past would have the results of their home series very different if they had independent umpires. Their umpires were notoriously patriotic and in case of WI were scared of their own crowd

It is said that even Sobers scored the record 365 he was out multiple times but the umpires were too scared to give him out.

Hence, regardless of who was or not a part of the WI team in 1971, India's victory should be appreciated because the West Indian umpires

However, it should also be noted that Pakistan took longer to win in the WI because it was dealing with not only the scared and patriotic umpires of the WI but also a far more formidable WI team

I have bowled to world class players many times. Trust you me, it's very hard them to get them out once. When you have to bowl them out two or three times in the same innings because of the patriotic umpires, it's like hell.

Neutral umpires came thanks to IK, and respect to him for that, having said that in 1987 Pakistan's famous drawn series in WI neutral umpires were used, I have discussed this multiple times but will say it again, Pakistan was definitely a formidable test side in 80s but the famous drawn series (1-1), the test Pakistan won didn't have Viv and Marshall playing..

 

[JaDed]

India's bad period 86-96 and even in that we knocked out PCT in one wc..

 

[tiger_khan]

Did your team ever go past group stage in WC then unlike Pakistan and plz read OP again, for actual time frame mentioned.

Bro you have to realize that your are interacting with a deflecting machine

First he said cricket excellence is a function of economy. upon debate he presented two more variables to the equation. Cricket interest and the size of population

he is writing and editing his own book as we interact

I bet you if you say tomorrow that everything he said is right his comeback will still contradict you

 

[tiger_khan]

Neutral umpires came thanks to IK, and respect to him for that, having said that in 1987 Pakistan's famous drawn series in WI neutral umpires were used, I have discussed this multiple times but will say it again, Pakistan was definitely a formidable test side in 80s but the famous drawn series (1-1), the test Pakistan won didn't have Viv and Marshall playing..

The link is attached. The umpires are listed for each test match. They were West Indians.

It is true that Richards and Marshal missed the first match. That team was a formidable one and didn't rely on two players. It's just like Australia winning the 2023 world cup without Shane Warne. They didn't lose a single game I think., without Shane Warne.

The patriotic umpiring issue were experienced in the second and third test matches when Richards and Marshal were playing. Imran Khan is on record saying that they would have won the series if it weren't for "patriotic" umpiring. IK is a dignified person. HE doesn't make these claims lightly and accept defeats from better teams.

You have to understand the context of things. The WI under Richards captaincy were unable to qualify for the 1987 WC semifinals. West Indies were under a lot pressure - the players. A home series defeat right after the WC debacle would have ended some players careers early. The bench those days was also very strong. Richards was notorious for putting his own country's umpires under a lot of pressure. In some cases even harassing them to get the opposition batsmen out.

Here is the link. You can check who were the umpires.

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/pakistan-tour-of-west-indies-1987-88-61494

 

[TheSultan]

To the best of my understanding, Pak team was never a force to handle before IK became captain.

Before him, the situation was very similar to what it is today. Hyped up names, who didn't gel together. They had individual greatness but could not calibrate with the team's goals.

Arguably, IK led a team with far less talent before the arrival of Wasim Akram's generation and still produced results. For example, his dream tour of England before the 1983 world cup and the Indian team's tour of Pakistan.

Unfortunately, these days our hyped up names now neither have the talent nor the personal results to justify their hype.

But all this can change if one good leader stands his ground and brings in changes.


So, absolutely YES!

Things will eventually turnaround.


The real question is what you and I can do to the help the turnaround as fans.

We can start calibrating with realities and stop emotionally supporting the players with Agents who have SM teams running for them - 24HR organized promotion of individual players . All we should expect from our players is their performance. We should not be interested in what they are wearing, what they are doing with their personal religious lives or if they are fluent in English or not.


Most importantly, we should start raising voices for the financial security of ALL the players who are involved in our domestic cricket. The way it used to be in the 80s and 90s. They all deserve a middle-class wage and health benefits...through permanent jobs.

Presently, there are players who are only 34 to 36 years old and had to move to US for financial reasons. They should not have to leave the country after giving two decades of their lives to Pak cricket. Needless to say, juniors also lose a potential mentor with vast experience.

If Pakistan is to survive as a top cricketing nation all the professional cricketers should have dignified compensation, not only the players representing the national team only. The way it used to be in the 80s and the 90s.

Very well put. Disagree on one point though, the current players have no individual greatness. The pre-Imran era had some very good players. They just required someone to pull them together.

Unfortunately, the current lot just don’t have that quality.

 

[saimayubera]

But India couldn't win a test series against Pakistan in its own backyard. What was the result of 2005 test series?

The last time we had a bilateral series was after 2011 WC. It was played in India, once again India was the ODI champion. It couldn't beat Pakistan on its own soil. What was the tally then? Indian batsmen including Kohli folded like a deck of cards.

India won a test series at home vs Pak in 2007.

India won an ODI series at home vs Pak in 2007 also.

Read what I said again.

In the 21st century Pakistan has not won an away test series vs India or a home ODI series vs India.

Pak's away test series in India was a 1-1 draw in 2005 and a 0-1 loss in 2007.

Their home ODI series were both losses in 2004 and 2006.

Out of the two teams, in the 21st century India is the only one that has won both ODI and test series both home and away, in all possible combinations. Pakistan hasn't.

 

[saimayubera]

Did your team ever go past group stage in WC then unlike Pakistan and plz read OP again, for actual time frame mentioned.

1. ODIs were not that important then
2. There is no award for "going past the group stage"
3. India won the WC earlier than Pakistan and has won it more times than Pakistan. This is also true of the T20WC and the CT.

 

[kron]

More like Nottingham Forrest of the old

Won 2 European cups when it was a weak era and then became irrelevant

 

[kron]

In odi Real Madrid is Australia

India are Barcelona
West Indies ac Milan

Pakistan is Nottingham Forrest or dortmund

England is benfica

In tests
In terms of legacy

West Indies is Real Madrid here
Australia is more like Bayern Munich
India would be Liverpool
South Africa is like barceolna

Pakistan is like Celtic

England is like well fc Porto

 

[Hitman]

But India couldn't win a test series against Pakistan in its own backyard. What was the result of 2005 test series?

The last time we had a bilateral series was after 2011 WC. It was played in India, once again India was the ODI champion. It couldn't beat Pakistan on its own soil. What was the tally then? Indian batsmen including Kohli folded like a deck of cards.

They did in 2007.

 

[tiger_khan]

They did in 2007.

I specifically mentioned the 2005 series, which followed the 2004 one which the OP mentioned...

 

[Sachin fan]

Did your team ever go past group stage in WC then unlike Pakistan and plz read OP again, for actual time frame mentioned.

What does going past group stage achieve? Afganistan went past group stage in 2024.

 

[Sachin fan]

I specifically mentioned the 2005 series, which followed the 2004 one which the OP mentioned...

You were talking of entire 2000s, isn't 2007 part of 2000s?

Anyways, two countries which don't regularly play each other shouldnt be used as benchmarks for each other's, their performances against other strong teams should be the benchmark

 

[Sachin fan]

What are you saying? the last ball 6 of Miandad was a fixed match? How could the entire Indian team be on fixing? or was it Cheetan Sharma alone?

Dont bring one off matches, but yes, a lot of team members were reportedly fixing, which is why india underachieved in most matches, not just against Pakistan

And that last ball six is glorified so much which shows the attitude, a close match with last ball 6 is glorified way more than clinical wins. Relying on some random miracles and one off things is never great for a team.


However, the great step india did was ban fixers and shame them big time. That's the point india took a turn for the better, and decided to be more professional and results are telling. Steady but right improvement instead of looking for one off messiah and superstars.

Meanwhile pakistan went into pardoning fixers like Amir and that's the point their cricket started going backwards and became unprofessional in every aspect. Even today they don't clamp on age fixers and other cheats but glorify them instead.

 

[tiger_khan]

You were talking of entire 2000s, isn't 2007 part of 2000s?

Anyways, two countries which don't regularly play each other shouldnt be used as benchmarks for each other's, their performances against other strong teams should be the benchmark

you are misinterpreting. I don't blame you. The OP has moved the goal post too many times for his convenience by mentioning different periods in different posts

 

[Sachin fan]

you are misinterpreting. I don't blame you. The OP has moved the goal post too many times for his convenience by mentioning different periods in different posts

Fair enough.

 

[tiger_khan]

Dont bring one off matches, but yes, a lot of team members were reportedly fixing, which is why india underachieved in most matches, not just against Pakistan

And that last ball six is glorified so much which shows the attitude, a close match with last ball 6 is glorified way more than clinical wins. Relying on some random miracles and one off things is never great for a team.


However, the great step india did was ban fixers and shame them big time. That's the point india took a turn for the better, and decided to be more professional and results are telling. Steady but right improvement instead of looking for one off messiah and superstars.

Meanwhile pakistan went into pardoning fixers like Amir and that's the point their cricket started going backwards and became unprofessional in every aspect. Even today they don't clamp on age fixers and other cheats but glorify them instead.

you are joining the discussion too late. Many things have been made clear by the OP after his mention of match fixing


i agree with your treatment of the fixers. We should have banned our players too. The only thing I can say is that the Indian situation was different than ours. Most of the players India banned were at the twilight of their careers and our players still had few years left. It would have been interesting to see if India had been in a similar situation too. But I second your opinion. We should have banned our players too. Actually, letting them play has affected our cricket culture adversely


However, I don't agree with your opinion of when two teams are not playing against each other they should be assessed by their performances against their common opponents. Although theoretically you are correct but since 1990s the Australians have toured Pakistan only two or maximum three times. Same with many other countries. Same with many other countries. Pakistan had to either play these teams in their home conditions or a neutral one. The same can't be said about India. Foreign teams visited them on a regular basis even when the visitors were a stronger team. Pakistan have had a distinct disadvantage not having played the foreign countries on their home grounds.

So, no...in our case we can't compare the two countries which have not been playing against each other by their performances and results against their common opponents.

 

[Flat_Track_Bully]

Look at the current crop of U18s. You will know the future of our cricket in 5 years.

 

[Savak]

Reality is PCT is now a middling team given how cricket has evolved technically and analytically.

The way the likes of good cricketers in Aus, Eng, SA, NZ, Ind now are identified, allowed to hone their games in leagues/centers of excellence and have access to world class coaching/training etc. is far far ahead of Pakistan. PCT is still overachieving given the deficiencies it faces in these fields and decision making stability.

Just to give an example - Ishan Kishan is today ICT's 4th/5th choice keeper bat across formats and quite far from national selection. His counterpart in PCT is probably Azam Khan/Rohail Nazir.
Each meal that Ishan eats, every training session of his is logged and tracked by the performance centre in Bengaluru. If he wants focused coaching on a particular aspect - say dustbowl batting - he can request same and have a dedicated coach arrange sessions of net bowlers and simulated wkts without cost to him. Both the CoE and his IPL franchise are invested in his development and will provide him with all tools he asks for.

I do not think likes of Azam/Nazir have such access to support systems.


Fact is Pakistan still produces talent - Shaheen, Naseem, Rauf, Abrar, Babar, Hurraira, Saim, Abdullah, Muqeem are all players with gifted raw skillsets and it shows in how most of them stand out from their peers (national and international) at age group level. They have also delivered in spurts high class performance in intl level also.

But the way this talent is managed and developed is far far behind the top 5 teams. Even if Pakistan were to suddenly find a new Wasim and Waqar tomorrow they wouldn't be able to sustain them at intl level beyond their first major injury issue. It would likely be BBL/CPL/Hundred that would see best of them rather than PCT

I beg to differ. The Pakistani national team players and Azam Khan have the financial resources and access to the fitness, strength, nutritionists and access to the coaching systems necessary to drastically uplift their games. It's all about hard work and work ethic. Azam Khan doesn't want to compromise on his diet.

 

[sugumarrising]

YES THEY CAN TURNAROUND LIKE REAL MADRID IN 2040.

 

[NishanKonar]

Dont bring one off matches, but yes, a lot of team members were reportedly fixing, which is why india underachieved in most matches, not just against Pakistan

And that last ball six is glorified so much which shows the attitude, a close match with last ball 6 is glorified way more than clinical wins. Relying on some random miracles and one off things is never great for a team.


However, the great step india did was ban fixers and shame them big time. That's the point india took a turn for the better, and decided to be more professional and results are telling. Steady but right improvement instead of looking for one off messiah and superstars.

Meanwhile pakistan went into pardoning fixers like Amir and that's the point their cricket started going backwards and became unprofessional in every aspect. Even today they don't clamp on age fixers and other cheats but glorify them instead.

India was a mediocre team in the 90s - bcoz we lacked talent. Just like Pakistan today. Nothing to do with match fixing

 

[NishanKonar]

I beg to differ. The Pakistani national team players and Azam Khan have the financial resources and access to the fitness, strength, nutritionists and access to the coaching systems necessary to drastically uplift their games. It's all about hard work and work ethic. Azam Khan doesn't want to compromise on his diet.

This the real problem in Pakistan cricket. Lack of hunger & drive

Look at Babar Azam. Sitting idle at home & playing golf. Not bothering to play county cricket - even though he is dropped from the NT

 

[Sachin fan]

India was a mediocre team in the 90s - bcoz we lacked talent. Just like Pakistan today. Nothing to do with match fixing

We will still have won more matches and key moments if not for the fixing

One prime example is choosing to bat second in a world cup match, after winning toss on a pitch made to detoriate in second half, when everyone from coach to curator warned the captain about batting second, and when we had won the quarter final batting first

Knowing that fixing was rampant including the captain himself and then claiming it made no difference is weird. How does that make any sense?

 

[sithb]

1. Don't have enough money to compete against the heavyweights.
2. There are other teams in football who compete against the likes of Real / Man City with lesser funds.

Money just doesn't grow on trees. You would need se

 

[sithb]

Liverpool have done that successfully and are probably the model to emulate. They can probably spend more now because of the years of being a well run football unit.

Man United are trying to do that and are failing in the process.
The intent should be to be a team like Liverpool and not a team like Man United. But the scattergun approach of the PCB makes me believe that they would become a team like United.

 

[NishanKonar]

We will still have won more matches and key moments if not for the fixing

One prime example is choosing to bat second in a world cup match, after winning toss on a pitch made to detoriate in second half, when everyone from coach to curator warned the captain about batting second, and when we had won the quarter final batting first

Knowing that fixing was rampant including the captain himself and then claiming it made no difference is weird. How does that make any sense?

No that 1996 WC semi final was not fixing. Nobody expected the pitch to crumble. It was curator's fault. Eden Gardens pitch generally remained good throughout a ODI & at night heavy dew was expected

Arjuna Ranatunga wud have batted 2nd if he won toss. He said afterwards that he was lucky to lose toss

 

[Sachin fan]

No that 1996 WC semi final was not fixing. Nobody expected the pitch to crumble. It was curator's fault. Eden Gardens pitch generally remained good throughout a ODI & at night heavy dew was expected

Arjuna Ranatunga wud have batted 2nd if he won toss. He said afterwards that he was lucky to lose toss

Ranataunga wasnt privy to inside stuff. But both curator and management/coach had clearly informed Azhar that batting second was suicide and he should definitely not chase. This came out after the match.

World cup matches, particularly knockout stages were the prime focus of fixers, Cronje did the same. These are the most high profile matches were crores and crores were put by gamblers.

Bookies would have become really rich because of that Sri Lanka win against India, it was a way bigger upset than Australia losing to sri lanka in final on an indian pitch.

 

[sithb]

An Indian team in 2002 would have chased down the total of 250.

That said , Azhar should have batted first. I'm not saying it's matchfixing. But india got Lanka 3 down for literally nothing on the score board. They were probably afraid of srilanka batting second and chasing down like when they chased down the 270 odd target in the initial group match

 

[Mesozoic]

Pakistan can certainly "come back" if the level of interest in cricket keeps dropping in SENA as it has been for the past couple of decades. There's no other way for them to overcome the gap in skills, quality and talent pool.

I predict...in about a decade's time, India-Pak-Bangladesh will be 3 out of the top 5 sides in the world...in all formats. It's just the way things are headed.

 

[NishanKonar]

Ranataunga wasnt privy to inside stuff. But both curator and management/coach had clearly informed Azhar that batting second was suicide and he should definitely not chase. This came out after the match.

World cup matches, particularly knockout stages were the prime focus of fixers, Cronje did the same. These are the most high profile matches were crores and crores were put by gamblers.

Bookies would have become really rich because of that Sri Lanka win against India, it was a way bigger upset than Australia losing to sri lanka in final on an indian pitch.

Cronje never fixed any WC knock out game

Pls understand fixing normally happened for random bilateral ODIs. Never for a high profile WC game. No need to over exxagerate stuff just to add extra masala

 

[NishanKonar]

An Indian team in 2002 would have chased down the total of 250.

That said , Azhar should have batted first. I'm not saying it's matchfixing. But india got Lanka 3 down for literally nothing on the score board. They were probably afraid of srilanka batting second and chasing down like when they chased down the 270 odd target in the initial group match

No team could have chased 250 on that pitch. That pitch crumbled after 20 overs in the 2nd innings. It was like batting on Day 5 pitch of Kanpur test

The thing is they hosted a wedding event few days before that game. The pitch got damaged & had to hastily relaid for the game. No wonder it crumbled during the 2nd innings

ps : It was poetic justice for Sri Lanka. Wud have been very unfair on them to lose due to dodgy pitch - given how they played throughout that tournament

 

[JaDed]

The link is attached. The umpires are listed for each test match. They were West Indians.

It is true that Richards and Marshal missed the first match. That team was a formidable one and didn't rely on two players. It's just like Australia winning the 2023 world cup without Shane Warne. They didn't lose a single game I think., without Shane Warne.

The patriotic umpiring issue were experienced in the second and third test matches when Richards and Marshal were playing. Imran Khan is on record saying that they would have won the series if it weren't for "patriotic" umpiring. IK is a dignified person. HE doesn't make these claims lightly and accept defeats from better teams.

You have to understand the context of things. The WI under Richards captaincy were unable to qualify for the 1987 WC semifinals. West Indies were under a lot pressure - the players. A home series defeat right after the WC debacle would have ended some players careers early. The bench those days was also very strong. Richards was notorious for putting his own country's umpires under a lot of pressure. In some cases even harassing them to get the opposition batsmen out.

Here is the link. You can check who were the umpires.

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/pakistan-tour-of-west-indies-1987-88-61494

Thanks for the correction, appreciate the same, I somehow thought from 1987 there were neutral umpires.