China is detaining Muslims in vast numbers - The Goal: ‘Transformation’ - Where is the outrage?

[Slog]

Claimed by Pakistan, or looking to give them Azaadi

Claimed, currently a part of it azaad.

 

[Napa]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The scale and depravity of China’s war against its Uighur population is truly astonishing. <a href="https://t.co/9z0ji5jEDZ">https://t.co/9z0ji5jEDZ</a></p>— Shiraz Maher (@ShirazMaher) <a href="https://twitter.com/ShirazMaher/status/1192038936555769857?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">November 6, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Just when I think China’s oppression couldn’t get any worse, something worse comes along. Basically telling the male Uyghurs detained in the concentration camps that their wives are being forced to sleep with other men.

 

[Local.Dada]

Just when I think China’s oppression couldn’t get any worse, something worse comes along. Basically telling the male Uyghurs detained in the concentration camps that their wives are being forced to sleep with other men.

I think lineage of Ertugul and his ilk stops at Kashmir or max India, so I think Uyghurs don’t fall in that bracket.

Hey China has troops on the Indian border, how bad or evil can China be that it wants to fight the evil Hindutva and RSS regime under Nazi Hitler Modi who has a lockdown in Kashmir.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Ummah is stronger in the Whitehouse than Pakistan it seems.

The Whitehouse is stronger than both the Ummah and Pakistan, but they won't do anything about it, not their problem. Not Pakistan's either for that matter.

 

[Napa]

I think lineage of Ertugul and his ilk stops at Kashmir or max India, so I think Uyghurs don’t fall in that bracket.

Hey China has troops on the Indian border, how bad or evil can China be that it wants to fight the evil Hindutva and RSS regime under Nazi Hitler Modi who has a lockdown in Kashmir.

The contradiction has not gone unnoticed by media around the world.

Pakistani Prime Minister Imran Khan’s foreign-policy agenda carries a contradiction at its heart. Mr. Khan seeks to project himself as a global defender of Islam, but he won’t utter a peep about one of the most egregious persecutions of Muslims: China’s repression of Xinjiang’s Uighurs and its project to Sinicize Islam.

In New York last week, Mr. Khan laid out his vision in a rambling 50-minute address to the United Nations General Assembly. He defended the right of Muslim women in the West to don the hijab.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/pakistan-gives-a-pass-to-chinas-oppression-of-muslims-11570142866

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

The contradiction has not gone unnoticed by media around the world.

Around the world....

That article is written by a NRI Indian. Only they would be sitting in a foreign country publishing propaganda on behalf of the Indian govt.

 

[Napa]

Around the world....

That article is written by a NRI Indian. Only they would be sitting in a foreign country publishing propaganda on behalf of the Indian govt.

It was published in the Wall Street Journal, which is the most influential newspaper on the right in the Western world.

 

[Slog]

It was published in the Wall Street Journal, which is the most influential newspaper on the right in the Western world.

I’m glad that for once (when it suits you here) you are giving importance which they deserve to publications such as WSJ and NYTimes

If that is the respect accorded by you to WSJ then you are in for a surprise as far as their coverage of modi is concerned. Quite the choice words they have on him in first few articles:

https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/modis-legacy-may-be-instability-and-stagnation-11577400177

https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/modi-misses-again-11580775441

https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/modi-bashes-nehru-but-rejects-only-his-good-ideas-11582483855

https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/india-protests-mark-backlash-against-modis-agenda-11576693650

https://www.wsj.com/video/opinion-i...ity/70C56098-7D4B-4B2B-B467-C3E3E827F376.html

 

[Napa]

I’m glad that for once (when it suits you here) you are giving importance which they deserve to publications such as WSJ and NYTimes

If that is the respect accorded by you to WSJ then you are in for a surprise as far as their coverage of modi is concerned. Quite the choice words they have on him in first few articles:

https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/modis-legacy-may-be-instability-and-stagnation-11577400177

https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/modi-misses-again-11580775441

https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/modi-bashes-nehru-but-rejects-only-his-good-ideas-11582483855

https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/india-protests-mark-backlash-against-modis-agenda-11576693650

https://www.wsj.com/video/opinion-i...ity/70C56098-7D4B-4B2B-B467-C3E3E827F376.html

Touche

I agree there is a fair bit of criticism of Modi in WSJ, which would have liked Modi to dismantle without delay the Indian bureaucratic apparatus that holds back free enterprise.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

It was published in the Wall Street Journal, which is the most influential newspaper on the right in the Western world.

It would be worth more if you weren't publishing Indian authored articles selectively to suit your agenda.

Anyway, it's beside the point. No one other than Indians care about Imran Khan's silence on China. Non-Indians understand that Pakistan is neither rich or powerful enough to dictate Chinese policies.

 

[Napa]

It would be worth more if you weren't publishing Indian authored articles selectively to suit your agenda.

Anyway, it's beside the point. No one other than Indians care about Imran Khan's silence on China. Non-Indians understand that Pakistan is neither rich or powerful enough to dictate Chinese policies.

Most WSJ readers consider the substance of the article rather than the ethnicity of the author.

Fair enough that Pakistan cannot dictate Chinese policy. However when IK claims to be morally outraged by India's behavior in Kashmir (Nazi Modi or whatever), it rings hollow.

 

[Slog]

Most WSJ readers consider the substance of the article rather than the ethnicity of the author.

Fair enough that Pakistan cannot dictate Chinese policy. However when IK claims to be morally outraged by India's behavior in Kashmir (Nazi Modi or whatever), it rings hollow.

If you are equating Pakistan’s reaction on kashmir with to its reaction to Uighurs and then wondering why the discrepancy then I must blame your critical thinking skills here since it is a pretty simple reason.

Pakistan does not have any claim on Xinjiang and neither is that area considered disputed internationally like Kashmir is by almost every country and the UN.

Obviously there will be more interest in a region in which there is a direct stake in.

Xinjiang for Pakistan is like Chechnya, Sudan, Kosovo etc. it can never be the same as Kashmir.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Most WSJ readers consider the substance of the article rather than the ethnicity of the author.

Fair enough that Pakistan cannot dictate Chinese policy. However when IK claims to be morally outraged by India's behavior in Kashmir (Nazi Modi or whatever), it rings hollow.

Assuming WSJ readers are Indian perhaps. Otherwise why would they care?

 

[Napa]

If you are equating Pakistan’s reaction on kashmir with to its reaction to Uighurs and then wondering why the discrepancy then I must blame your critical thinking skills here since it is a pretty simple reason.

Pakistan does not have any claim on Xinjiang and neither is that area considered disputed internationally like Kashmir is by almost every country and the UN.

Obviously there will be more interest in a region in which there is a direct stake in.

Xinjiang for Pakistan is like Chechnya, Sudan, Kosovo etc. it can never be the same as Kashmir.

Moral outrage is not supposed to be circumscribed by ethnicity.

Parochial outrage fine. However the response of the rest of the world (IK's intended audience to his Modi bashing) is a collective shrug. They say "You are outraged at the situation of the Kashmiris but not Uyghurs because the Uyghurs are not your people. The Kashmiris are not our people either, so spare us these "Modi is Hitler" rants."

 

[The Viper]

Trump signs bill pressuring China over Uighur Muslim crackdown

President Donald Trump signed legislation on Wednesday calling for sanctions over the repression of China’s Uighur Muslims, as excerpts from a book by former U.S. national security adviser John Bolton alleged that Trump encouraged China’s president to continue with detention camps for the minority group.

The bill, which Congress passed with only one “no” vote, was intended to send China a strong message on human rights by mandating sanctions against those responsible for oppression of members of China’s Muslim minority.

The United Nations estimates that more than a million Muslims have been detained in camps in the Xinjiang region. The U.S. State Department has accused Chinese officials of subjecting Muslims to torture, abuse “and trying to basically erase their culture and their religion.”

China denies mistreatment and says the camps provide vocational training.

Trump signed the bill as Secretary of State Mike Pompeo held his first face-to-face meeting since last year with China’s top diplomat, Yang Jiechi.

Trump issued a signing statement that some of the bill’s requirements might limit his constitutional authority to conduct diplomacy so he would regard them as advisory, not mandatory.

Trump did not hold a ceremony to mark his signing, which came as newspapers published excerpts the new book by his former national security adviser, Bolton.

Among other allegations, the book says Trump sought Chinese President Xi Jinping’s help to win re-election during a closed-door 2019 meeting and that Trump said Xi should go ahead with building the camps in Xinjiang.

The White House did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

The Uighur law for the first time calls for sanctions on a member of China’s powerful Politburo, Xinjiang’s Communist Party secretary, Chen Quanguo, as responsible for “gross human rights violations.”

It also calls on U.S. companies operating in Xinjiang to take steps to ensure they do not use parts made with forced labor.

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-u...er-uighur-muslim-crackdown-idUKKBN23O3EF?il=0

 

[Romali_rotti]

Trump signs bill pressuring China over Uighur Muslim crackdown

President Donald Trump signed legislation on Wednesday calling for sanctions over the repression of China’s Uighur Muslims, as excerpts from a book by former U.S. national security adviser John Bolton alleged that Trump encouraged China’s president to continue with detention camps for the minority group.

The bill, which Congress passed with only one “no” vote, was intended to send China a strong message on human rights by mandating sanctions against those responsible for oppression of members of China’s Muslim minority.

The United Nations estimates that more than a million Muslims have been detained in camps in the Xinjiang region. The U.S. State Department has accused Chinese officials of subjecting Muslims to torture, abuse “and trying to basically erase their culture and their religion.”

China denies mistreatment and says the camps provide vocational training.

Trump signed the bill as Secretary of State Mike Pompeo held his first face-to-face meeting since last year with China’s top diplomat, Yang Jiechi.

Trump issued a signing statement that some of the bill’s requirements might limit his constitutional authority to conduct diplomacy so he would regard them as advisory, not mandatory.

Trump did not hold a ceremony to mark his signing, which came as newspapers published excerpts the new book by his former national security adviser, Bolton.

Among other allegations, the book says Trump sought Chinese President Xi Jinping’s help to win re-election during a closed-door 2019 meeting and that Trump said Xi should go ahead with building the camps in Xinjiang.

The White House did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

The Uighur law for the first time calls for sanctions on a member of China’s powerful Politburo, Xinjiang’s Communist Party secretary, Chen Quanguo, as responsible for “gross human rights violations.”

It also calls on U.S. companies operating in Xinjiang to take steps to ensure they do not use parts made with forced labor.

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-u...er-uighur-muslim-crackdown-idUKKBN23O3EF?il=0

).. Good lord...

 

[Romali_rotti]

I wonder if the Ughyur muslim treatment by China is just a sample of more such things to come in the 'future'

 

[Local.Dada]

If this was about a few 100 radical Kashmiris there would be 10000 posts with tweets and memes from every jack with a social media account and a handful of followers.

China is trying to occupy Indian territory and “investing” in Pakistan “selflessly” so maybe they should be given a pass.

Surprising though I thought brotherhood involved all issues or does it just stop at Kashmir and once in a while on Palestine? Can someone explain how it works?

 

[Local.Dada]

If you are equating Pakistan’s reaction on kashmir with to its reaction to Uighurs and then wondering why the discrepancy then I must blame your critical thinking skills here since it is a pretty simple reason.

Pakistan does not have any claim on Xinjiang and neither is that area considered disputed internationally like Kashmir is by almost every country and the UN.

Obviously there will be more interest in a region in which there is a direct stake in.

Xinjiang for Pakistan is like Chechnya, Sudan, Kosovo etc. it can never be the same as Kashmir.

If Pakistan has a claim on Kashmir, it should do something about it. The reason people bring hypocrisy is the argument never seems to be India has taken our land but Hindutva’s atrocities over Kashmir or Nazi Modi changing the “demographics” of Kashmir etc.

So if you want to play the religion card the hypocrisy will be rightfully pointed out.

I have seen Pak channels complaint about Israel and their Palestine policy too. Does Pakistan have a stake there too?

 

[Slog]

If

I have seen Pak channels complaint about Israel and their Palestine policy too. Does Pakistan have a stake there too?

Yes. Pakistani muslims have a stake in there. Jerusalem is the third most holiest site for Muslims and that is why not just Pakistani, but almost all muslim countries keep a keen eye on it.

Understand the nuances before blabbering.

 

[Local.Dada]

Yes. Pakistani muslims have a stake in there. Jerusalem is the third most holiest site for Muslims and that is why not just Pakistani, but almost all muslim countries keep a keen eye on it.

Understand the nuances before blabbering.

Ok so China is probably the biggest investor in Pakistan I guess that is not nuanced enough for you.

 

[Slog]

Ok so China is probably the biggest investor in Pakistan I guess that is not nuanced enough for you.

now you're not even making sense lol. I just gave an explanation of why Pakistani Muslims (or others even for that matter) dont care much for Uighyur Muslims or Chechnyan Muslims or Sudanese Muslims but do for Palestine and Kashmir. But you probably know that anyway.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

Ummah is stronger in the Whitehouse than Pakistan it seems.

Pakistan was not created for the ummah. It was created to protect the interests of subcontinent Muslims. Thats why in Pakistan Delhi Riots, Gujarat, and of course Kashmir gets more coverage. We are culturally very similar to North Indian Muslims, so its natural for our population to feel closer to them, and therefore the media to cover those issues. Also Palestine has our third holiest site so that also gets coverage.

While we feel bad, we are not responsible for the situation in Syria, Libya, Yemen, Checenya, Philipines, Myanmar, Darfur, or China etc. And we cant hurt Pakistan to help them.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

If this was about a few 100 radical Kashmiris there would be 10000 posts with tweets and memes from every jack with a social media account and a handful of followers.

China is trying to occupy Indian territory and “investing” in Pakistan “selflessly” so maybe they should be given a pass.

Surprising though I thought brotherhood involved all issues or does it just stop at Kashmir and once in a while on Palestine? Can someone explain how it works?

Sure. People in Pakistan feel closer first to other Pakistanis, then other subcontinent Muslims, and then other Muslims in the world. Since Kashmir, Gujarat, Delhi, etc, are part of North India, a region which we have so much in common with, when Muslims of those areas are suffering, we naturally feel worse for them. Culture and religion are both important.


Palestine has our third holiest site. So thats why it gets more coverage. And thats why Yemen, Syria, China dont.

With that said yes, people will feel bad for all other Muslims who are suffering, but we cant jeopardize our own interests for them. Same way no other Muslims from other regions are helping subcontinent Muslims if it will hurt there own interests.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

If Pakistan has a claim on Kashmir, it should do something about it. The reason people bring hypocrisy is the argument never seems to be India has taken our land but Hindutva’s atrocities over Kashmir or Nazi Modi changing the “demographics” of Kashmir etc.

So if you want to play the religion card the hypocrisy will be rightfully pointed out.

I have seen Pak channels complaint about Israel and their Palestine policy too. Does Pakistan have a stake there too?

If Indian Muslims were the majority in India, do you really think we would have any problem with India?????

 

[Romali_rotti]

Pakistan was not created for the ummah. It was created to protect the interests of subcontinent Muslims. Thats why in Pakistan Delhi Riots, Gujarat, and of course Kashmir gets more coverage. We are culturally very similar to North Indian Muslims, so its natural for our population to feel closer to them, and therefore the media to cover those issues. Also Palestine has our third holiest site so that also gets coverage.

While we feel bad, we are not responsible for the situation in Syria, Libya, Yemen, Checenya, Philipines, Myanmar, Darfur, or China etc. And we cant hurt Pakistan to help them.

It doesn't matter what basis Pakistan was created on. You as a muslim is Ummah Bound per the Quran, or does Quran give you an option of being a part time/selective muslim ?

 

[blackanhyellow]

Sure. People in Pakistan feel closer first to other Pakistanis, then other subcontinent Muslims, and then other Muslims in the world. Since Kashmir, Gujarat, Delhi, etc, are part of North India, a region which we have so much in common with, when Muslims of those areas are suffering, we naturally feel worse for them. Culture and religion are both important.


Palestine has our third holiest site. So thats why it gets more coverage. And thats why Yemen, Syria, China dont.

With that said yes, people will feel bad for all other Muslims who are suffering, but we cant jeopardize our own interests for them. Same way no other Muslims from other regions are helping subcontinent Muslims if it will hurt there own interests.

Ummah starts at home.

Once we sort out our own situation, and kashmir, we can have the capability to worry about the wider ummah.

I mean a lot of pakistanis do care , but cant take practical steps.

Basic military strategy, secure your own home base first before expansion

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

It doesn't matter what basis Pakistan was created on. You as a muslim is Ummah Bound per the Quran, or does Quran give you an option of being a part time/selective muslim ?

Yes historically that was true, and that's why in Muslim empires the population was divided into two, the Muslims and non Muslim. And your ethnicity did not really matter.

However There is a concept in Islam called Ijtihad. Which means reasoning. So by using reasoning lets look at the concept of Ummah today.

Ummah means nation, and in 7th century the concept of a nation state did not exist, and so it was reasonable to group your population by religion. But now there are modern states, and the state has a responsibility to all its citizens. The state is the Ummah now. That doesn't mean we dont care about the other Muslims, we do, but the state and the people of the state comes first.


So to give an example by using that logic, a Pakistani Hindu is more important than an Indian Muslim for Pakistan. Or at least they are for me.

 

[Local.Dada]

now you're not even making sense lol. I just gave an explanation of why Pakistani Muslims (or others even for that matter) dont care much for Uighyur Muslims or Chechnyan Muslims or Sudanese Muslims but do for Palestine and Kashmir. But you probably know that anyway.

You are trying too hard to be a lawyer here Not sure if that’s your actual profession but I won’t comment further.

So ok you are telling me Pakistanis care. “selectively” for Muslims. Sorry tough for me to understand because look I have a strong regional identity and a national one, outside of that I don’t really care for anyone universally.

I mean I am not going to become a fan boy of Ravi Bopara or Chanderpaul even if they put a tilak on their forehead.

So let me get this straight Pakistanis only care for Kashmiri Muslims and Palestine Muslims because it is the “3rd” ranked holiest site lol.

China can re-write the Koran and feed refugees alcohol and pork but hey, they give Pakistan $$$ and more importantly they are in a conflict in India so who gives a damn as they don’t fall under a certain criteria.

Again I am not asking you to be a lawyer because there isn’t anything you are going to gain or lose by winning/losing an argument here but your posts lack basic rational thinking and common sense

 

[Local.Dada]

If Indian Muslims were the majority in India, do you really think we would have any problem with India?????

There are more Muslims in India than Pakistan and should I add more successful Muslims in India than Pakistan.

So if your problem is just that India is a Hindu Majority and by that default a secular state, then that shows more about you doesn’t it?

Also unfortunately Indian Muslims find it a stigma to be associated with Pakistan so maybe they don’t feel the same way.

 

[Local.Dada]

Also [MENTION=138463]Slog[/MENTION] Where does Ertugul and Turkish history rank in the line of preferential hierarchy

 

[MenInG]

Must say the supporters for Muslims in China really surprise me - same people dont give 2 hoots for Muslims in India but so much concern for Chinese Muslims - SubhanALLAH

 

[Local.Dada]

Must say the supporters for Muslims in China really surprise me - same people dont give 2 hoots for Muslims in India but so much concern for Chinese Muslims - SubhanALLAH

I don’t think it’s a Muslim angle here, this is bigger than that. It’s a human angle.

Forget Hindu-Muslim here but maybe to people it looks like shutting down internet is a much bigger violation than feeding someone bacon and booze, however if you apply context, it’s pretty clear what’s worse.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

There are more Muslims in India than Pakistan and should I add more successful Muslims in India than Pakistan.

So if your problem is just that India is a Hindu Majority and by that default a secular state, then that shows more about you doesn’t it?

Also unfortunately Indian Muslims find it a stigma to be associated with Pakistan so maybe they don’t feel the same way.

No issues with it being a secular state, but partition was done on the basis of religion because Muslims and Hindus could not agree on how to share power. And it was Muslims in the minority provinces who supported it more because they had more to fear than the Muslims who lived in majority.

And partition lead to the Kashmir dispute which is the source of conflict between India and Pakistan today.

So if Muslims were the majority in India then obviously there would be no partition, or if they became majority after partition, then either they would reunite, or have a US / Canada relationship.


In an ideal situation before partition Muslims and Hindus both would have been around 50% of the population. And while India is a secular state the symbols of the country reflect only the non Islamic heritage of the subcontinent. Same way they symbols of Pakistan reflect only the Muslim heritage of the subcontinent. If the population was even then we could have done a 50/50 split.

And i dont know why you think Indian Muslims are more successful. Majority of them are in a worse position that Dalits.

And as Indian Muslims were the one who led the partition movement, they have no choice but to trash Pakistan, lie and say that they are Indians by choice (when no one was supposed to migrate during partition), lie and say they never supported the Pakistan movement, and lie and say how secular they are when its actually the Pakistani and Bangladeshi Muslims who are more liberal than them (as the truly secular North Indian Muslims mostly migrated to Pakistan during partition).

 

[Local.Dada]

No issues with it being a secular state, but partition was done on the basis of religion because Muslims and Hindus could not agree on how to share power. And it was Muslims in the minority provinces who supported it more because they had more to fear than the Muslims who lived in majority.

And partition lead to the Kashmir dispute which is the source of conflict between India and Pakistan today.

So if Muslims were the majority in India then obviously there would be no partition, or if they became majority after partition, then either they would reunite, or have a US / Canada relationship.


In an ideal situation before partition Muslims and Hindus both would have been around 50% of the population. And while India is a secular state the symbols of the country reflect only the non Islamic heritage of the subcontinent. Same way they symbols of Pakistan reflect only the Muslim heritage of the subcontinent. If the population was even then we could have done a 50/50 split.

And i dont know why you think Indian Muslims are more successful. Majority of them are in a worse position that Dalits.

And as Indian Muslims were the one who led the partition movement, they have no choice but to trash Pakistan, lie and say that they are Indians by choice (when no one was supposed to migrate during partition), lie and say they never supported the Pakistan movement, and lie and say how secular they are when its actually the Pakistani and Bangladeshi Muslims who are more liberal than them (as the truly secular North Indian Muslims mostly migrated to Pakistan during partition).

Muslims being treated worse than Dalits lol. This is what happens when you get your news from housewives chatting at a kitty party.

Let’s see Muslim cricketers in India who have played may be a handful of games have done way better than even some Pakistani legends financially and in terms of future prospects

The biggest film industry in the world is dominated by Muslims. I don’t know if there is art in Pakistan but you get my point.

India’s 2nd richest man is a Muslim. His net worth alone might be more than Pakistan’s economy.

Let’s say a Muslim student goes to IIT or IIM, compare his career trajectory with a Pakistani Muslim who goes to the same level of school in Pakistan.

Laborers, small business men etc be it India or Pakistan have the same issues however I don’t have to tell you which country a small business has a better chance of flourishing.

It’s funny that I am comparing Indian minority vs Pakistan majority don’t even want to open the Pandora’s box of comparing the minorities of both countries.

 

[Thomaskutty]

Pakistan was not created for the ummah. It was created to protect the interests of subcontinent Muslims. Thats why in Pakistan Delhi Riots, Gujarat, and of course Kashmir gets more coverage. We are culturally very similar to North Indian Muslims, so its natural for our population to feel closer to them, and therefore the media to cover those issues. Also Palestine has our third holiest site so that also gets coverage..

If Pakistan can refuse diplomatic relations with Israel for treatment of Palestinians, you should also do the same with China for Xinjiang muslims, which are geographically even closer to you.

This is just cowardice.

 

[MenInG]

If Pakistan can refuse diplomatic relations with Israel for treatment of Palestinians, you should also do the same with China for Xinjiang muslims, which are geographically even closer to you.

This is just cowardice.

I am amazed at the concern for Chinese Muslims by a lot of people who wont give 2 hoots for the rape/pillage is happening in their own backyard in Kashmir.

That is also cowardice.

 

[Mamoon]

Pakistan’s stance on China’s treatment of Muslims is where we lose whatever little credibility we had in the first place.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

If Pakistan can refuse diplomatic relations with Israel for treatment of Palestinians, you should also do the same with China for Xinjiang muslims, which are geographically even closer to you.

This is just cowardice.

Not for Palestinans, for Palestine. Do you know the Crusdaes were fought for that piece of land? So obviously its very important. Once Saudi Arabia recognizes Israel, Pakistan will do the same. Pakistan get billions of dollars in benefits from Arab countries.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

Pakistan’s stance on China’s treatment of Muslims is where we lose whatever little credibility we had in the first place.

No its not. We are not responsible for helping every Muslim region in the world.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

Muslims being treated worse than Dalits lol. This is what happens when you get your news from housewives chatting at a kitty party.

Let’s see Muslim cricketers in India who have played may be a handful of games have done way better than even some Pakistani legends financially and in terms of future prospects

The biggest film industry in the world is dominated by Muslims. I don’t know if there is art in Pakistan but you get my point.

India’s 2nd richest man is a Muslim. His net worth alone might be more than Pakistan’s economy.

Let’s say a Muslim student goes to IIT or IIM, compare his career trajectory with a Pakistani Muslim who goes to the same level of school in Pakistan.

Laborers, small business men etc be it India or Pakistan have the same issues however I don’t have to tell you which country a small business has a better chance of flourishing.

It’s funny that I am comparing Indian minority vs Pakistan majority don’t even want to open the Pandora’s box of comparing the minorities of both countries.

Minorities in Pakistan have a quota on jobs, and in parliament, and in education in line with their population. Muslims in India dont. In India it goes to Dalits, who have made tremendous progress in 70 years. Muslims in India the bulk of the have not done as well as Hindus.



https://qz.com/india/1399537/indian-muslims-have-the-least-chances-of-escaping-poverty/

This is not from a housewife, its an Indian source saying that Muslims have the least chance of leaving poverty. You only mentioned the top tier, when i only mentioned majority. The top tier Indian Muslim is certainly doing better than the top tier Pakistani Muslim. At least monetarily.

And even with all the success that Indian Muslims supposedly have, Kashmiri Muslims still want to leave India.

 

[Syed1]

Pakistan’s stance on China’s treatment of Muslims is where we lose whatever little credibility we had in the first place.

You don't decide how much credibility has or doesn't have.

 

[Thomaskutty]

I am amazed at the concern for Chinese Muslims by a lot of people who wont give 2 hoots for the rape/pillage is happening in their own backyard in Kashmir.

That is also cowardice.

What rape/pillage are you referring to and by whom ? There was one major rape incident way back (Kunan Poshspora) in 1991 by indian soldiers which was never properly dealt with and most of the anger of the local population have been derived from that incident.

 

[Thomaskutty]

Not for Palestinans, for Palestine. Do you know the Crusdaes were fought for that piece of land? So obviously its very important. Once Saudi Arabia recognizes Israel, Pakistan will do the same. Pakistan get billions of dollars in benefits from Arab countries.

Please stop with this 3rd holiest site silly excuse .. Israelis aren't going to demolish these mosques and any muslim on the planet is able to visit these holy sites.. so why exactly are you still refusing diplomatic relations? The answer is .. to show your muslim fellowship and solidarity with Palestinians, a fellowship which funnily goes missing whenever Xinjiang is mentioned.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

Please stop with this 3rd holiest site silly excuse .. Israelis aren't going to demolish these mosques and any muslim on the planet is able to visit these holy sites.. so why exactly are you still refusing diplomatic relations? The answer is .. to show your muslim fellowship and solidarity with Palestinians, a fellowship which funnily goes missing whenever Xinjiang is mentioned.

What does Pakistan do to show solidarity with Muslims of Philippines, Checenya, Yemen, Syria, Libya, Iraq, Darfur, Western Sahara? They are also fellow Muslims.

So its not only Chinese Muslims. Pakistan has to put Pakistan first.

I already said once Saudi Arabia recognizes Israel Pakistan will as well. The reason is that Pakistan gets alot of money from the Arab gulf countries, so they want to be on the same page with them when it comes to the Israel issue.

ANd the reason the public cares is because of the geographic location of the Palestinians. If Palestinans were from Brazil the public would not care.


And i agree that Israel wont destroy the mosque, but they keep on mentioning that it was built on a temple implying that Muslims destroyed it. The first Jewish temple was destroyed by the Babylonians and the second was destroyed by the Romans. It was 700 years later that the Muslims built the Dome of the Rock, and at that time the site was used as a garbage dump. I wouldn't even mind if the site is shared with all religions, but when they omit that part its hard to trust them.

 

[Local.Dada]

Please stop with this 3rd holiest site silly excuse .. Israelis aren't going to demolish these mosques and any muslim on the planet is able to visit these holy sites.. so why exactly are you still refusing diplomatic relations? The answer is .. to show your muslim fellowship and solidarity with Palestinians, a fellowship which funnily goes missing whenever Xinjiang is mentioned.

It’s ironic though, few posters are talking like lawyers and finding loopholes to defend China. I don’t think I have seen a single post name calling China or its policies from Pakistanis on here.

The brand ambassadors of crusade against Islamophobia don’t seem to think re-writing the very basic tenets of Islam as a bigger deal than the 3rd or 4th holy site for Muslims.

When you show that it’s not all dark and gloomy for Indian Muslims with examples, there will be academic level research to produce an article from the dusty archives of the internet to counter that but obviously it’s not hypocrisy when it comes to China.

I mean this whole thing writes itself

 

[Local.Dada]

What does Pakistan do to show solidarity with Muslims of Philippines, Checenya, Yemen, Syria, Libya, Iraq, Darfur, Western Sahara? They are also fellow Muslims.

So its not only Chinese Muslims. Pakistan has to put Pakistan first.

I already said once Saudi Arabia recognizes Israel Pakistan will as well. The reason is that Pakistan gets alot of money from the Arab gulf countries, so they want to be on the same page with them when it comes to the Israel issue.

ANd the reason the public cares is because of the geographic location of the Palestinians. If Palestinans were from Brazil the public would not care.


And i agree that Israel wont destroy the mosque, but they keep on mentioning that it was built on a temple implying that Muslims destroyed it. The first Jewish temple was destroyed by the Babylonians and the second was destroyed by the Romans. It was 700 years later that the Muslims built the Dome of the Rock, and at that time the site was used as a garbage dump. I wouldn't even mind if the site is shared with all religions, but when they omit that part its hard to trust them.

You know that there is more historical proximity and an actual border shared with the Chinese right.

I mean it’s a different thing if you think you are an expat middle easterners from the 12th century. Even then if you bring in geography here, that’s a poor argument.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Pakistan’s stance on China’s treatment of Muslims is where we lose whatever little credibility we had in the first place.

Pakistan should join forces with India and fight the Chinese to get back their credibility then!

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

You know that there is more historical proximity and an actual border shared with the Chinese right.

I mean it’s a different thing if you think you are an expat middle easterners from the 12th century. Even then if you bring in geography here, that’s a poor argument.

OK lets look at this slowly.

1 - Yemen and Syria and Libya are also in the Middle east right? They are also Arab right? Those countries get very little attention in Pakistan. So by that logic by taking interest in Palestinians should surely have nothing to do with thinking identifying with Middle East, which is a favorite accusation of Hindus.

2 - Which country does Pakistan have most historical proximity with ? Would you agree its India? If you do, i have already mentioned that Pakistan would care more for subcontinent Muslims then they would for Muslims in any other part of Planet Earth. This is why Delhi Riots, Gujarat Riots got way more coverage then Yemen and Syria ever got. I mean Pakistan has fought wars for Kashmir. It shouldn't be too hard to see which Muslims they feel closer to.

3 - China is an important ally of Pakistan would you agree? If you agree then why should Pakistan be the one Muslim country responsible to put there interests aside and antagonize an ally, for a group of Muslims who have very little in common with Pakistan. Pakistan might share a border with China, but that border has a natural boundry there is very little culturally in common with them. While we feel bad for them we are not responsible for Uighur's, and we cant put Pakistan's interests over them.

4 - No one in Pakistan or Indian Muslims considers themselves a Middle Easterner or Central Asian, or whatever. THey consider themselves to be from subcontinent, South Asia, or India. However where they differ with Hindus is, that dont consider Muslims born in the subcontinent for generations to be foreigners. So as an example Babur is foreigner for Muslims and Hindus. Aurangzeb is foreigner for right wing Hindus, for Muslims he is either a 4th or 5th generation South Asian Muslim depending on if you include Afghanistan in South Asia or not.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Pakistan should join forces with India and fight the Chinese to get back their credibility then!

Cap for a supposed neutral brit you are getting a little worked up unnecessarily

 

[Romali_rotti]

, a fellowship which funnily goes missing whenever Xinjiang is mentioned.

A little harsh, I would say Pakistan knows the consequences of pissing China off. Pakistanis may find themselves in the same detention centres which the Ughyurs are now happily residing in eating halal pork and reading the new Chinese version of the Quran...

 

[Slog]

You are trying too hard to be a lawyer here Not sure if that’s your actual profession but I won’t comment further.

So ok you are telling me Pakistanis care. “selectively” for Muslims. Sorry tough for me to understand because look I have a strong regional identity and a national one, outside of that I don’t really care for anyone universally.

I mean I am not going to become a fan boy of Ravi Bopara or Chanderpaul even if they put a tilak on their forehead.

So let me get this straight Pakistanis only care for Kashmiri Muslims and Palestine Muslims because it is the “3rd” ranked holiest site lol.

China can re-write the Koran and feed refugees alcohol and pork but hey, they give Pakistan $$$ and more importantly they are in a conflict in India so who gives a damn as they don’t fall under a certain criteria.

Again I am not asking you to be a lawyer because there isn’t anything you are going to gain or lose by winning/losing an argument here but your posts lack basic rational thinking and common sense

You are failing to understand a basic reasoning and seem to lack common sense.

I don’t care whether you care for a dotted forehead person or not. I am telling you what most Pakistani Muslims care for. I am not asking you whether you think it is right or if it makes sense to you because your approval is not required. It is simply to inform.
[MENTION=148149]Gharib Aadmi[/MENTION] gives a much clearer explanation in a few posts too

 

[Local.Dada]

A little harsh, I would say Pakistan knows the consequences of pissing China off. Pakistanis may find themselves in the same detention centres which the Ughyurs are now happily residing in eating halal pork and reading the new Chinese version of the Quran...

There were reports of young Pakistani girls being married off or sold to some Chinese perverts as well, but may be they were not abducted/ transacted on the 3rd or 4th holiest site so I guess that can get a pass as well.

Forget China or Pakistan but that should get ones blood boiling regardless were you are from.

So far you have heard legal loopholes in why Pakistan doesn’t raise oppression of Uyghur Muslims

We have heard Theological/Historical/ Philosophical perspectives on why it is no ones concern

But you won’t see a single simple statement that acknowledges Chinese treatment of Muslims. Chalo don’t have to be a religious angle here but what about a humanitarian angle?

Some Kashmiri teenager not being able to get on his tiktok seems to be a bigger issue.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Cap for a supposed neutral brit you are getting a little worked up unnecessarily

Look, you guys are having a hard time with the losses in Ladhak, that is why I am in here to rally some support and show solidarity against the Chinese. Let's stop in this thread for a while, it's a bit safer than the one dealing with the current military conflict.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

Look, you guys are having a hard time with the losses in Ladhak, that is why I am in here to rally some support and show solidarity against the Chinese. Let's stop in this thread for a while, it's a bit safer than the one dealing with the current military conflict.

The price for that is the valley. Either shared or given to Pakistan outright. If that happens Pakistanis wont even mind sending troops to fight alongside Indian soldiers against the chinese.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

There were reports of young Pakistani girls being married off or sold to some Chinese perverts as well, but may be they were not abducted/ transacted on the 3rd or 4th holiest site so I guess that can get a pass as well.

Forget China or Pakistan but that should get ones blood boiling regardless were you are from.

So far you have heard legal loopholes in why Pakistan doesn’t raise oppression of Uyghur Muslims

We have heard Theological/Historical/ Philosophical perspectives on why it is no ones concern

But you won’t see a single simple statement that acknowledges Chinese treatment of Muslims. Chalo don’t have to be a religious angle here but what about a humanitarian angle?

Some Kashmiri teenager not being able to get on his tiktok seems to be a bigger issue.

China has abused the human rights of Uighur Muslims. They have banned them from fasting, praying, sending them to reeducation camps. China has one of the worst regimes on planet Earth as far as human rights go. Are you happy now?

People in Pakistan have no love for China. However at the goverment level, we have to take care of Pakistan's interests first. This is the concept you cant understand.

If we can ever solve the Kashmir issue, people in Pakistan would be more than happy to have India replace China as there biggest ally.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

China has abused the human rights of Uighur Muslims. They have banned them from fasting, praying, sending them to reeducation camps. China has one of the worst regimes on planet Earth as far as human rights go. Are you happy now?

People in Pakistan have no love for China. However at the goverment level, we have to take care of Pakistan's interests first. This is the concept you cant understand.

If we can ever solve the Kashmir issue, people in Pakistan would be more than happy to have India replace China as there biggest ally.

Indian posters understand it very well, but the idea is to undermine Pakistan's credentials as a Muslim country, and as such the very validity of the country itself. Plus they are currently engaged in a border dispute with China so this gives two fronts for besieged Indians to fight back on with regard to both China and Pakistan. Cyber warfare is their favourite type of warfare to be honest, they can certainly fight hard with their keyboards.

 

[Mesozoic]

I don't know how to react when Pakistanis say they have no links at all to the Uyghur Muslims when you take into account that they are Turkic people and share a bloodline with the Mughals , who are revered to no end in Pakistan where people try as hard as possible to claim their ancestry.

I understand they wouldn't want to upset China at any costs but atleast give better excuses than "No Holy site" etc .

 

[Slog]

I don't know how to react when Pakistanis say they have no links at all to the Uyghur Muslims when you take into account that they are Turkic people and share a bloodline with the Mughals , who are revered to no end in Pakistan where people try as hard as possible to claim their ancestry.

I understand they wouldn't want to upset China at any costs but atleast give better excuses than "No Holy site" etc .

Seems like you’re in denial.

Your reasoning is busted so you’re clutching onto this.

Look most aren’t denying Chinese persecution of the Uighur Muslims. But pakistan was made for subcontinental muslims so naturally there is more interest for that. And Jerusalem is one of the holiest sites and direction muslims used to pray to. Besides Kashmir literally is considered part of pakistan and even internationally is disputed territory. You’ll equate that to China now?

If you cannot still understand then either your have very poor comprehension abilities or you want to live in denial as it busts your narrative.

But go on

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

I don't know how to react when Pakistanis say they have no links at all to the Uyghur Muslims when you take into account that they are Turkic people and share a bloodline with the Mughals , who are revered to no end in Pakistan where people try as hard as possible to claim their ancestry.

I understand they wouldn't want to upset China at any costs but atleast give better excuses than "No Holy site" etc .

The Mughals and the other Turks who came to the subcontinent starting in the 10th century intermarried with locals. After the first generation they no longer would look like the central asians. Look at pictures of the sons bahadur Shah Zafar. Do they look like a Turk to you?


https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Sons_of_Bahadur_Shah_Zafar.jpg


And the hated Mughals after Akbar had rajput blood, and i believe if i understood correctly they are even descendant from lord Rama because they intermarried with kachwa rajputs. So out of hate you are branding people descendant from your own god as foreigners.

and its not just the Mughals, the lodhis, tuglughs, khijlis, etc will have all married local women. Within a couple of generation they would look as Turkish as the regular Indian.

Pakistanis view them as Subcontinent people, and admire them for their contributions to there culture such as language, cuisine, clothing, architecture, etc. They also influenced the culture of Indian Hindus who hate them out of spite.

So by all means hate them, but i dont understand the logic of branding people as foreigners who were born and bred in the subcontinent, who had mothers from the subcontinent. I mean how many generations did they have to live in India for you to accept them as locals?

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

Seems like you’re in denial.

Your reasoning is busted so you’re clutching onto this.

Look most aren’t denying Chinese persecution of the Uighur Muslims. But pakistan was made for subcontinental muslims so naturally there is more interest for that. And Jerusalem is one of the holiest sites and direction muslims used to pray to. Besides Kashmir literally is considered part of pakistan and even internationally is disputed territory. You’ll equate that to China now?

If you cannot still understand then either your have very poor comprehension abilities or you want to live in denial as it busts your narrative.

But go on

They view the Mughals, and other Muslim empires of subcontinent of Turkic origin as foreigners in perpetuity. So they cant understand the idea that those people the subcontinent there home, they intermarried with locals, they were born and bred there, are locals who would look just like them.

So they go look you identify with the Mughals, so why not Uighur. If they could accept the Mughals as subcontinent Muslims, then it would make perfect sense that Pakistanis and Indian Muslims would admire the greatest Muslim dynasty of the subcontinent. Instead they think that Mughals were just like Uighur's culturally, and so since we dont care about the Uighur's, we should not care about the Mughals.


These shameless people dont realize how much of there own culture came from the Mughals.

 

[Mesozoic]

Seems like you’re in denial.

Your reasoning is busted so you’re clutching onto this.

Look most aren’t denying Chinese persecution of the Uighur Muslims. But pakistan was made for subcontinental muslims so naturally there is more interest for that. And Jerusalem is one of the holiest sites and direction muslims used to pray to. Besides Kashmir literally is considered part of pakistan and even internationally is disputed territory. You’ll equate that to China now?

If you cannot still understand then either your have very poor comprehension abilities or you want to live in denial as it busts your narrative.

But go on

What reasoning ? This is literally my first comment on this thread. What reasoning did you get from me even before I posted a thing? And you're making fun of my comprehension abilities.

I don't care if Pakistanis are more interested in subcontinent Muslims or Palestinians or whoever for that matter. I just wanted to point out the obvious ducking for cover by Pakistanis about the treatment of Uyghurs and their faulty excuse of having no historical links with them.

 

[Mesozoic]

The Mughals and the other Turks who came to the subcontinent starting in the 10th century intermarried with locals. After the first generation they no longer would look like the central asians. Look at pictures of the sons bahadur Shah Zafar. Do they look like a Turk to you?


https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Sons_of_Bahadur_Shah_Zafar.jpg


And the hated Mughals after Akbar had rajput blood, and i believe if i understood correctly they are even descendant from lord Rama because they intermarried with kachwa rajputs. So out of hate you are branding people descendant from your own god as foreigners.

and its not just the Mughals, the lodhis, tuglughs, khijlis, etc will have all married local women. Within a couple of generation they would look as Turkish as the regular Indian.

Pakistanis view them as Subcontinent people, and admire them for their contributions to there culture such as language, cuisine, clothing, architecture, etc. They also influenced the culture of Indian Hindus who hate them out of spite.

So by all means hate them, but i dont understand the logic of branding people as foreigners who were born and bred in the subcontinent, who had mothers from the subcontinent. I mean how many generations did they have to live in India for you to accept them as locals?

Where did I say anything about anyone being foreigners ? Stop being so insecure.

And what does all of this got to do with my comment? Just answer these for me if you can.

1. Isn't it true that Mughals are of Turkic origin?

2. Aren't the Uyghur Muslims Turkic?

3. Doesn't that mean Mughals , who are idolised and adored by Pakistanis, share a bloodline and were closer in every way to the present day Uyghurs ?

4. So doesn't that mean the Pakistani claims of having "no cultural or historical links" with the Uyghurs are obsolete and are just excuses for their hypocrisy regarding the Chinese treatment of Uyghurs?

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

Where did I say anything about anyone being foreigners ? Stop being so insecure.

And what does all of this got to do with my comment? Just answer these for me if you can.

1. Isn't it true that Mughals are of Turkic origin?

2. Aren't the Uyghur Muslims Turkic?

3. Doesn't that mean Mughals , who are idolised and adored by Pakistanis, share a bloodline and were closer in every way to the present day Uyghurs ?

4. So doesn't that mean the Pakistani claims of having "no cultural or historical links" with the Uyghurs are obsolete and are just excuses for their hypocrisy regarding the Chinese treatment of Uyghurs?

Ok lets look at this slowly.

1 - Yes Mughals were of Turk origin. Same way how the Kings of England from the time of William the Conqueror to Richard III were of French origin. But that does not make those Kings French. It does not make the War of Roses a war of two French families. They eventually became English culturally. I mean if you go back far enough we are all of African origin.

2 - Yes

3 & 4 - No. The Mughals share a bloodline closer to other South Asians than Turks. The Mughals married predominantly Rajput and Persian women. The last Mughal Emperor would have like 1 % Turk blood. Shah Jahan himself was 3/4 Rajput. If you look at the pictures of the sons of Bahadur Shah Zafar which i shared earlier , i dont see how you would not think they they look South Asian. You can also look at the Shahi Imam of Delhi Masjid. To see what a person of Turkic origin who has lived in India for centuries looks like.

When you intermarry with locals for generations your culture changes. And your culture is more important than your bloodline. Millions in Latin America have indigenous blood, but that does not make them an Aztec, or Incan, or Mayan. They have a Latino culture.

So the same way the Mughals and the other Muslim empires of subcontinent had very little to do with Turkic culture. They actually adopted Persian language and culture initially. However after making the subcontinent there home they started adding Indian element to there culture. The architecture, cuisine, clothing, language, has influences from both Persian and Indian culture. The pure Turks dont have an Indian influence on there culture. So the Mughals have more in common with North Indian Muslims and Hindus then they would with any Turkic country. There culture is unique to the subcontinent.

So for that reason Pakistanis and Indians, regardless of religion have zero in common with Uighur's culturally and a lot of culture that comes from the Mughals, and other North Indian Muslim empires.

 

[Romali_rotti]

There were reports of young Pakistani girls being married off or sold to some Chinese perverts as well, but may be they were not abducted/ transacted on the 3rd or 4th holiest site so I guess that can get a pass as well.

Forget China or Pakistan but that should get ones blood boiling regardless were you are from.

So far you have heard legal loopholes in why Pakistan doesn’t raise oppression of Uyghur Muslims

We have heard Theological/Historical/ Philosophical perspectives on why it is no ones concern

But you won’t see a single simple statement that acknowledges Chinese treatment of Muslims. Chalo don’t have to be a religious angle here but what about a humanitarian angle?

Some Kashmiri teenager not being able to get on his tiktok seems to be a bigger issue.

LD,

I understand the dilemma facing the Pakistanis, they cannot afford to **** of the Chinese, if they do, there will be no Pakistan, I empathize with the Pakistani 'government' in this instance. However I don't agree with the Pakistani folks we see online, who will barely acknowledge the torture, organ harvesting etc of the Ughyur muslims and saying stupid things like 'oh oh we have nothing in common' with them however Ummah clearly applies to every muslim on the planet...

 

[Thunderbolt14]

Sorry tough for me to understand because look I have a strong regional identity and a national one, outside of that I don’t really care for anyone universally.

This regional jingoism is at the heart of all problems with our world right now. Love universally, spread happiness, advocate for everyone.

 

[Thunderbolt14]

LD,

I understand the dilemma facing the Pakistanis, they cannot afford to **** of the Chinese, if they do, there will be no Pakistan, I empathize with the Pakistani 'government' in this instance. However I don't agree with the Pakistani folks we see online, who will barely acknowledge the torture, organ harvesting etc of the Ughyur muslims and saying stupid things like 'oh oh we have nothing in common' with them however Ummah clearly applies to every muslim on the planet...

The people you talk to online are a subset. Most people, I think, care just as much as an American cares about Syria. The real problem is getting people to care universally.

 

[msb314]

Pakistan’s stance on China’s treatment of Muslims is where we lose whatever little credibility we had in the first place.

You clearly don’t understand how international politics works.

There is no way Pakistan would speak out against China - they are our only ally in the region...

Just like the US would never speak out against the UK or Israel nor would Canada speak out against the US. The political and economic ramifications are just too strong of forces to ignore..

This is not a religious issue but a geo-political one.

 

[Slog]

Where did I say anything about anyone being foreigners ? Stop being so insecure.

And what does all of this got to do with my comment? Just answer these for me if you can.

1. Isn't it true that Mughals are of Turkic origin?

2. Aren't the Uyghur Muslims Turkic?

3. Doesn't that mean Mughals , who are idolised and adored by Pakistanis, share a bloodline and were closer in every way to the present day Uyghurs ?

4. So doesn't that mean the Pakistani claims of having "no cultural or historical links" with the Uyghurs are obsolete and are just excuses for their hypocrisy regarding the Chinese treatment of Uyghurs?

This is literally the stupidest thing I’ve ever read.

But A for effort

 

[Slog]

This is literally the stupidest thing I’ve ever read.

But A for effort

Edit: [MENTION=148149]Gharib Aadmi[/MENTION] does a good job of tearing that post apart point by point. And clearly gave it more respect than it deserves so props to his patience.

However the issue isn’t that [MENTION=151350]Mesozoic[/MENTION] doesn’t understand what’s going on. He fully does since anyone with a few functioning brain cells should understand it. The issue is th G by acknowledging the obvious [MENTION=151350]Mesozoic[/MENTION]’s whole argument will fall apart and he will be left with egg on his face. So it’s better for him to put his head in the sand and be an ostrich.

 

[Mamoon]

You clearly don’t understand how international politics works.

There is no way Pakistan would speak out against China - they are our only ally in the region...

Just like the US would never speak out against the UK or Israel nor would Canada speak out against the US. The political and economic ramifications are just too strong of forces to ignore..

This is not a religious issue but a geo-political one.

I understand how international politics works, and that is why I can only laugh when certain Pakistanis label Kashmir a ‘humanitarian issue’ which it clearly isn’t for Pakistan.

Kashmir is purely a political tool for Pakistan and important for the balance of power in South Asia.

Pakistan will obviously not speak against China because China holds us by our balls.

That is why when Imran makes fake speeches in the UN and implores the world to take note of the humanitarian crisis in Kashmir, he does not have an ounce of credibility because a true humanitarian does not ignore atrocities for political and economic reasons, and that is what Pakistan has done as far as the Uyghurs are concerned.

So it is not really about what Pakistan should do for the Uyghurs. The point is that the public of Pakistan should at least have the courage to admit that Kashmir is not a humanitarian issue for our establishment and its civilian mouthpiece Imran Khan.

Besides, an establishment that is guilty of one of the worst genocides the region has ever seen couldn’t care less about humanitarian causes. What India is doing in Kashmir is not even comparable to what we did in East Pakistan to surpass the separatist movement.

The people of Kashmir need to realize that they are just a tool for Pakistan and our sympathy and concern is just a facade. It is purely about ego and politics.

Besides, I won’t call Pakistan an “ally” of China. It is more of a master-slave relationship.

 

[Mesozoic]

1 - Yes Mughals were of Turk origin. Same way how the Kings of England from the time of William the Conqueror to Richard III were of French origin. But that does not make those Kings French. It does not make the War of Roses a war of two French families. They eventually became English culturally. I mean if you go back far enough we are all of African origin.

But the English never claim to having no "historical ties" with the French do they ? How odd it'd have been if the English said "we have no cultural ties with the French so we don't care about them", when the Germans were blitzkrieging their way into France during ww2. Everyone and their dog would have guessed that they were just saving their rears from Nazis.

Besides, it's a false equivalence as the French were never able to influence England as much as the Mughals did on Pakistan. The Anglo-Saxons, Romans and even the Danish Vikings left a bigger imprint on them than the French. But on the other hand, I see Pakistanis claiming to be the inheritors of the erstwhile Mughal empire , who were Turkic by origin and also claim that they have no historical ties with the Uyghurs who are Turkic as well. I'm not saying that every Mughal emperor from Babur to Bahadur Shah Zafar are purely Turkic but do anyone of them have no historical ties at all
to the Turkic people of central Asia ? No right.

So, does it make any sense that Pakistanis who identify most of their culture and history with the same Mughals claim that they have no connection at all with the Turkic Uyghurs?

 

[Mesozoic]

Edit: [MENTION=148149]Gharib Aadmi[/MENTION] does a good job of tearing that post apart point by point. And clearly gave it more respect than it deserves so props to his patience.

However the issue isn’t that [MENTION=151350]Mesozoic[/MENTION] doesn’t understand what’s going on. He fully does since anyone with a few functioning brain cells should understand it. The issue is th G by acknowledging the obvious [MENTION=151350]Mesozoic[/MENTION]’s whole argument will fall apart and he will be left with egg on his face. So it’s better for him to put his head in the sand and be an ostrich.

Lol still hurt with that clueless "reasoning" comment where you assumed my "reasoning" even before I posted and ended up with an egg all over your face ?

How is your "cOmPrEhEnDiNg aBiLiTiEs' doing ? You have abused irony twice in a very short time. Just stop.

 

[Slog]

If Pakistan can refuse diplomatic relations with Israel for treatment of Palestinians, you should also do the same with China for Xinjiang muslims, which are geographically even closer to you.

This is just cowardice.

lol this post shows how little clue youve got about the issue.

 

[Slog]

Lol still hurt with that clueless "reasoning" comment where you assumed my "reasoning" even before I posted and ended up with an egg all over your face ?

How is your "cOmPrEhEnDiNg aBiLiTiEs' doing ? You have abused irony twice in a very short time. Just stop.

Is this your way of trying to make yourself feel better?

Do you even know what you're referring to though? Good to know its not just Indian PM, but normal Indians like you who are also peddling fake narratives to make themselves feel better in these hard times )

 

[Slog]

I understand how international politics works, and that is why I can only laugh when certain Pakistanis label Kashmir a ‘humanitarian issue’ which it clearly isn’t for Pakistan.

Kashmir is purely a political tool for Pakistan and important for the balance of power in South Asia.

Pakistan will obviously not speak against China because China holds us by our balls.

That is why when Imran makes fake speeches in the UN and implores the world to take note of the humanitarian crisis in Kashmir, he does not have an ounce of credibility because a true humanitarian does not ignore atrocities for political and economic reasons, and that is what Pakistan has done as far as the Uyghurs are concerned.

So it is not really about what Pakistan should do for the Uyghurs. The point is that the public of Pakistan should at least have the courage to admit that Kashmir is not a humanitarian issue for our establishment and its civilian mouthpiece Imran Khan.

Besides, an establishment that is guilty of one of the worst genocides the region has ever seen couldn’t care less about humanitarian causes. What India is doing in Kashmir is not even comparable to what we did in East Pakistan to surpass the separatist movement.

The people of Kashmir need to realize that they are just a tool for Pakistan and our sympathy and concern is just a facade. It is purely about ego and politics.

Besides, I won’t call Pakistan an “ally” of China. It is more of a master-slave relationship.

Kashmir is a political issue for Pakistan.

Obviously it is since it is considered disputed land in the international arena. And when one country is carrying out atrocities on disputed land which you lay claim to; obviously you will point those out and say that the atrocities are a direct result of not solving the problem of the land's disputed status.

Your logic is literally filled with holes here.

 

[BreadPakoda]

I understand how international politics works, and that is why I can only laugh when certain Pakistanis label Kashmir a ‘humanitarian issue’ which it clearly isn’t for Pakistan.

Kashmir is purely a political tool for Pakistan and important for the balance of power in South Asia.

Pakistan will obviously not speak against China because China holds us by our balls.

That is why when Imran makes fake speeches in the UN and implores the world to take note of the humanitarian crisis in Kashmir, he does not have an ounce of credibility because a true humanitarian does not ignore atrocities for political and economic reasons, and that is what Pakistan has done as far as the Uyghurs are concerned.

So it is not really about what Pakistan should do for the Uyghurs. The point is that the public of Pakistan should at least have the courage to admit that Kashmir is not a humanitarian issue for our establishment and its civilian mouthpiece Imran Khan.

Besides, an establishment that is guilty of one of the worst genocides the region has ever seen couldn’t care less about humanitarian causes. What India is doing in Kashmir is not even comparable to what we did in East Pakistan to surpass the separatist movement.

The people of Kashmir need to realize that they are just a tool for Pakistan and our sympathy and concern is just a facade. It is purely about ego and politics.

Besides, I won’t call Pakistan an “ally” of China. It is more of a master-slave relationship.

Agree. Like many posters have accepted, IK should come out clean and agree that Kashmir is a political issue and shouldn’t beg for moral support in front of the world. The Kashmiris should realize this too.

 

[Local.Dada]

Kashmir is a political issue for Pakistan.

Obviously it is since it is considered disputed land in the international arena. And when one country is carrying out atrocities on disputed land which you lay claim to; obviously you will point those out and say that the atrocities are a direct result of not solving the problem of the land's disputed status.

Your logic is literally filled with holes here.

Yes Kashmir is a territorial issue. However it is made a religious issue in Pakistan. Anyways want get into the details but, having a full blown issue with India a country with the closest cultural and territorial ties is ok.

So Pakistan has issues with Israel because of the 3rd holiest site (I get a chuckle every time I see the mention of a ranking). Having issue with a country that has some of the most genius scientists and business people and a lot of pull in the developed world is justified for it.

However China perpetuates one of the worst human rights violation against fellow Muslims. Treat young Pakistani girls as commodity ( I hope it’s not because it is being said most of them are minority girls anyways) . I have seen your posts and I don’t think you are like that. That was just a dig at someone else so no hard feelings. However Pakistan has to evolve and not let this get in the way of trade and economic perks.

Sorry no matter how many law points you bring here, that looks very hypocritical no matter how you spin it.

 

[Slog]

Yes Kashmir is a territorial issue. However it is made a religious issue in Pakistan. Anyways want get into the details but, having a full blown issue with India a country with the closest cultural and territorial ties is ok.

So Pakistan has issues with Israel because of the 3rd holiest site (I get a chuckle every time I see the mention of a ranking). Having issue with a country that has some of the most genius scientists and business people and a lot of pull in the developed world is justified for it.

However China perpetuates one of the worst human rights violation against fellow Muslims. Treat young Pakistani girls as commodity ( I hope it’s not because it is being said most of them are minority girls anyways) . I have seen your posts and I don’t think you are like that. That was just a dig at someone else so no hard feelings. However Pakistan has to evolve and not let this get in the way of trade and economic perks.

Sorry no matter how many law points you bring here, that looks very hypocritical no matter how you spin it.

Look the thing is this. I criticize China as much as anyone here. I've laid the blame squarely on them for Coronavirus not being nipped in the bud due to them withholding information. If you follow my posts going back years (which I'm sure no one has time to) I have always criticized their authoritarian regime too.

However what I am trying to differentiate here is that the issue in itself is political. Every country has skeletons in closet (including Pakistan). Kashmir and Xinjiang are both issues and both humanitarian issues in my eyes. But only one is a political issue in the eyes of Pakistanis. You may not agree with it but I am sure you can appreciate that Pakistanis see Kashmir as theirs as much as Indians see Kashmir as theirs. In international circles, Kashmir IS disputed land. So for a Pakistani, Uighyur Muslims and Kashmiri Muslims can never have the same importance even if they feel the same way about mistreatment of Muslims because the average Pakistani sees Kashmiri Muslims as their countryman. It is made as a religious issue because Pakistan itself was made for religious reasons. Pakistan also laid claims to Hyderabad (Nizam actually wanted to merge with Pakistan) and Junagadh (same) but those could not be projected as political issues with religious angle which is why it never gained traction among the populace and no Pakistani even really cares about them.

Similarly it is fact that Pakistan was made as a country for Islam specifically subcontinental Muslims. Theres no running away from that fact and is why there is a keen interest in that community. That also explains interest in Jerusalem regardless of whether you chuckle at it. For a country made for Islam, the status of one of the holiest sites is important. And its not just Pakistan. Most Muslim countries do not recognise Israel or call it out. Again. I personally think recognizing Israel will have immense benefits but I am just explaining the logic behind Pakistanis caring for Palestine. Btw Indian Muslims do too and so does every other Muslim Ive met including Turks whose country actually acknowledges Israel.

Pakistanis by and large naturally have good wishes for any persecuted Muslims they may hear about but Kashmir and Palestine are different due to the reasons mentioned. You dont have to agree with them but it is the explanation.

 

[Slog]

Agree. Like many posters have accepted, IK should come out clean and agree that Kashmir is a political issue and shouldn’t beg for moral support in front of the world. The Kashmiris should realize this too.

The world knows that Kashmir is a political issue.

The whole pitch is that it has been a political issue for decades and has not yet been solved and is turning into a humanitarian crisis now.