China vs France - Who has wronged Muslims more?

[rhony]

Yes we must congratulate China on maintaining good relations with Muslim countries despite these allegations of mistreatment highlighted repeatedly by those would like to see discord between China and other Muslim nations. Well done China.

I guess you also congratulate India for maintaining terrific relations with all the Islamic countries in the middle east.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I guess you also congratulate India for maintaining terrific relations with all the Islamic countries in the middle east.

Would love to congratulate India but it would be inappropriate. For India it is more important to follow China's lead and build diplomatic relations with those closer to home such as China, Nepal and Pakistan.

 

[rhony]

Would love to congratulate India but it would be inappropriate. For India it is more important to follow China's lead and build diplomatic relations with those closer to home such as China, Nepal and Pakistan.

Nepal is fine. China is a bad example though. They don't get along with many of their neighbors as well. Read about the south china sea and the disputes. They don't get along with India as well. Pakistan and India, well..that saga will continue

 

[KingKhanWC]

Calm down, you are simply ignorant of Chinese history and current political issues.

Have you heard of the Tibetans? Its estimated hundreds of thousands have been killed, thousands of monastries destroyed and currently thousands are imprisoned in camps/jails. FYI, they are not Muslims.

There is no debate on this topic unless one is using anti-Muslim bigotry to justify their weak arguments.

China treats all religions the same, if they look for a sepratist agenda they will be dealt with. This is the reason why MOST Muslims in China are not being targetted in any way. Meanwhile France wants to use I.D on Muslim children.

[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] Care to reply? Im surprised you havent heard of the Tibetans in China? Would you like more details?

 

[Mamoon]

[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] Care to reply? Im surprised you havent heard of the Tibetans in China? Would you like more details?

What is there to reply? I asked you why the Chinese are forcing Uyghurs to shave beards, stop them from reciting Quran and are destroying mosques, but your response is that they have been doing the same to Tibet Buddhists, so this is your justification that they treat all religions equally and do not have a problem with Islam.

But what you don’t or perhaps cannot explain is why they have to target Islam to contain the separatist movement in Xinjiang? Do you think the Chinese government is incapable of controlling these Muslim freedom fighters without blackmailing them through religion and without abusing their faith?

What does destroying mosques, banning beards and banning recitation of Quran has to do with their independence movement?

It is conclusive proof that the Chinese blame Islam of their secessionist movement and are “re-educating” them in camps.

Your point about China not having problem with Islam would have been valid if they were not abusing Islam to control Muslims in Xinjiang.

 

[Firebat]

Afghan migrant: I thought France was humane until police beat me

PARIS (Reuters) - Murtaza Khademi left his home in Afghanistan and smuggled himself into France because he thought he would be safe, but this week he encountered a different side of Europe: a police operation in which, he says, he was beaten with a truncheon.

“The police forces had no mercy. We thought they were humane people,” he said on Tuesday night near a railway station in Paris where charities were distributing food. “They are not like that at all.”

Khademi was among dozens of migrants and asylum seekers who had pitched pop-up tents on a central square in the city in an organised protest intended to attract attention to their precarious living conditions.

Police in riot gear moved in to disperse the protest on Monday night. Officers tussled with protesters as they tried to drag them out of the tents.

Interior Minister Gerard Darmanin said some of the scenes were “shocking” and that officers who behaved unacceptably would be punished. Officials said though the protest was illegal so police were within their rights to disperse it.

Khademi, 27, said he was inside his tent when the police arrived and beat him with batons. He escaped, but said he left his belongings inside the tent, so now he had nothing.

From Mazar-i-Sharif in northern Afghanistan, he said he travelled through Pakistan, Iran, and the Balkans to reach France. He previously stayed at a migrant camp on the edge of Paris, but that was dispersed last week.

Now, he said, he moves around the streets looking for a place to bed down. Many ordinary French people were supportive, he said, but the police were hostile.

“I thought that France was a good place and that its people are European, and that’s why we came here, but the immigrants were not well received,” he said, speaking in Dari, one of the languages used in Afghanistan.

“We have no way back; we have to stay here and endure the situation because we have no other choice.”

https://www.reuters.com/article/eur...was-humane-until-police-beat-me-idUSKBN2851O8

 

[KingKhanWC]

What is there to reply? I asked you why the Chinese are forcing Uyghurs to shave beards, stop them from reciting Quran and are destroying mosques, but your response is that they have been doing the same to Tibet Buddhists, so this is your justification that they treat all religions equally and do not have a problem with Islam.

But what you don’t or perhaps cannot explain is why they have to target Islam to contain the separatist movement in Xinjiang? Do you think the Chinese government is incapable of controlling these Muslim freedom fighters without blackmailing them through religion and without abusing their faith?

What does destroying mosques, banning beards and banning recitation of Quran has to do with their independence movement?

It is conclusive proof that the Chinese blame Islam of their secessionist movement and are “re-educating” them in camps.

Your point about China not having problem with Islam would have been valid if they were not abusing Islam to control Muslims in Xinjiang.

lol. Both people are sepratists.

Ive just educated you on a movement which is common knowledge to most people proving China isnt only against Muslims, it's against anyone who wants independence ie breaking the nation which includes Tibetans and Muslims in Xinjiang.

Now you claim its different because they are not shaving beards, not knowing most Tibetans dont have beards. )

 

[Mamoon]

lol. Both people are sepratists.

Ive just educated you on a movement which is common knowledge to most people proving China isnt only against Muslims, it's against anyone who wants independence ie breaking the nation which includes Tibetans and Muslims in Xinjiang.

Now you claim its different because they are not shaving beards, not knowing most Tibetans dont have beards. )

If you stop rolling on the floor and actually read what I said, you might get my point albeit you are not the sharpest tool in the box.

I didn’t say anything about the facial hair of Tibetans. Forget the Tibetans and focus on what they are doing in Xinjiang to your fellow Muslim brothers.

Let me ask again - why does China need to ban beards, ban recitation of Quran, destroy mosques and stop people from fasting etc. to stop an independence movement?

What does practicing your religion have to do with demanding independence?

Why is the Chinese government targeting the religion of these people?

Is it impossible to contain this independence movement without abusing their religion?

 

[Slog]

context is important.

Whatever china did wrong, they are giving it away to pakistan and hence, pakistani muslims have forgiven them.

Whatever France is doing, the aid is miniscule compared to china. Hence more the outrage.

If France gives more money on the table, it will turn.

Do you think the Chinese are speaking pleasantries about the Prophet as they put Muslims in camps and are looking to ethnically cleanse their population of Muslims? Everything has a price, including religion and religious solidarity. Muslims, specially Pakistanis are showing that for the right price (China's support at the global level) they are willing to overlook their religion and fellow muslims being desecrated.

Meanwhile, let's talk about a few cartoons in France...

You clearly dont understand the issue and the emotions involved when you make such statements.

This has nothing to do with money. In any case the reaction isn’t just a Pakistani reaction. it’s a worldwide Muslim reaction on similar lines. So unless some dunces here think the Saudis and Emiratis also have the same general opinion on this comparison because of Chinese money then the logic doesn’t even make sense. And if they think Saudi and other gulf people are also dependent on Chinese aid then I have a bridge to sell them.

France endorsed someone who insulted and mocked the Prophet PBUH. France attacked the roots of the religion for ALL Muslims. China persecutes a specific sect which most Muslims haven’t ever met a person from. I know it’s perhaps messed up but the truth is that most Muslims care about any perceived insult to the Prophet rather than actual persecution of a minority they have no interaction. Any body who doesn’t understand this is an idiot who is trying to force fit a narrative.

 

[Slog]

Does France have Nazi style camps where they detain Muslims and commit unspeakable atrocities?

No, so the answer to this question is China and it is not even close.

You must surely understand that most Muslims over the world will pick France in this case and it literally has nothing to do with money. You can use that against Pakistan but surely not against Saudis and other rich states if you’re of sane mind.

The simple fact and what is hard to grasp for anyone who hasn’t lived in Muslim countries; is that many Muslims have a fanatical devotion to the Priphet PBUH (even if in real life they don’t follow much of his practices at all.) so for a large subset of these Muslims; a cartoon on the Prophet is much more insulting than actual persecution of an ethnic group which they don’t have much relation to.

 

[Thomaskutty]

France endorsed someone who insulted and mocked the Prophet PBUH. France attacked the roots of the religion for ALL Muslims. China persecutes a specific sect which most Muslims haven’t ever met a person from. I know it’s perhaps messed up but the truth is that most Muslims care about any perceived insult to the Prophet rather than actual persecution of a minority they have no interaction. Any body who doesn’t understand this is an idiot who is trying to force fit a narrative.

Why be so dishonest? There are no principles involved here .. be it perceived insult to prophet or persecution of community. If tomorrow China does the exact same thing as what France did, Imran will still not utter a word againt the Xi Jinping and his party.

 

[Mesozoic]

China "rewriting" your whole book, destroying your places of worship, calling your religion a "mental illness" is halaal...

France displaying a cartoon of your prophet is haraam....


I'm confused....

 

[Romali_rotti]

The simple fact and what is hard to grasp for anyone who hasn’t lived in Muslim countries; is that many Muslims have a fanatical devotion to the Priphet PBUH (even if in real life they don’t follow much of his practices at all.) so for a large subset of these Muslims; a cartoon on the Prophet is much more insulting than actual persecution of an ethnic group which they don’t have much relation to.

Yes, what you are saying here is true, and if I am being empathetic yes it is highly insulting to depict Mohammad in a cartoon. However what muslims need to realize is, in the west and a lot of other non muslim majority countries, no one cares about Mohammad, he is literally nothing to those people, so they will voice or express their thoughts on him. If muslims don't like it, maybe they should not be living there in the first place ? they are more than welcome to protest, however this head cutting , stabbing and other means of extreme violence endangering lives is simply NOT ON... It is impossible to stop what non muslims say or express about Mohammad. Wasn't there a painting about Jesus being bathed in Urine a few decades ago ? Barring a small protest in Australia, no one got their heads or other body parts cut off..

 

[rhony]

You clearly dont understand the issue and the emotions involved when you make such statements.

This has nothing to do with money. In any case the reaction isn’t just a Pakistani reaction. it’s a worldwide Muslim reaction on similar lines. So unless some dunces here think the Saudis and Emiratis also have the same general opinion on this comparison because of Chinese money then the logic doesn’t even make sense. And if they think Saudi and other gulf people are also dependent on Chinese aid then I have a bridge to sell them.

France endorsed someone who insulted and mocked the Prophet PBUH. France attacked the roots of the religion for ALL Muslims. China persecutes a specific sect which most Muslims haven’t ever met a person from. I know it’s perhaps messed up but the truth is that most Muslims care about any perceived insult to the Prophet rather than actual persecution of a minority they have no interaction. Any body who doesn’t understand this is an idiot who is trying to force fit a narrative.

China is the largest oil consuming country in the world. That includes exports from Saudi too. You know the rest.

So basically you are giving a clean chit to India as well. As you know, they haven't insulted the prophet. Now that people actually don't care about the "perceived" persecution of minority, all's good then.

 

[Technics 1210]

If you stop rolling on the floor and actually read what I said, you might get my point albeit you are not the sharpest tool in the box.

I didn’t say anything about the facial hair of Tibetans. Forget the Tibetans and focus on what they are doing in Xinjiang to your fellow Muslim brothers.

Let me ask again - why does China need to ban beards, ban recitation of Quran, destroy mosques and stop people from fasting etc. to stop an independence movement?

What does practicing your religion have to do with demanding independence?

Why is the Chinese government targeting the religion of these people?

Is it impossible to contain this independence movement without abusing their religion?

China also has concentration camps for Christians as another example. Google it.

China doesn't target specific religions, China targets any ideology that threatens the stability, vision, and goals of the Communist Party.

You need a break from saving all those lives from Covid19 and start reading up on the realities of the world.

 

[Slog]

Why be so dishonest? There are no principles involved here .. be it perceived insult to prophet or persecution of community. If tomorrow China does the exact same thing as what France did, Imran will still not utter a word againt the Xi Jinping and his party.

The only dishonesty is on your part where you are pathetically trying to cling to a narrative which doesn’t make sense. So you’re saying Saudis, Qataris and UAE etc don’t day anything against China for economic reasons too?

 

[Slog]

China is the largest oil consuming country in the world. That includes exports from Saudi too. You know the rest.

So basically you are giving a clean chit to India as well. As you know, they haven't insulted the prophet. Now that people actually don't care about the "perceived" persecution of minority, all's good then.

You’re pretty much right. India gets flak from Pakistan because the Muslims are Kashmiris who Pakistanis considered countrymen and also have historical links to. If India was some random country in Africa with no links then they would not get same criticism obv since it’s not a direct link. I thought you’d have the brains to understand that. A chinese Muslim is in the same boat as a Sudanese muslim. Whereas what France is allegedly doing is attacking the Prophet PBUH who is loved by all Muslims.

 

[Slog]

China "rewriting" your whole book, destroying your places of worship, calling your religion a "mental illness" is halaal...

France displaying a cartoon of your prophet is haraam....


I'm confused....

Not surprising you’re confused. You’re not muslim.

 

[Technics 1210]

There's a reason why China has one the worst human right's record, it's not because they target Muslims.

 

[Mesozoic]

Not surprising you’re confused. You’re not muslim.

So are you telling me that Muslims get offended if someone draws a cartoon of their prophet but not when someone destroys mosques, rewrites Qur'an and labels their religion a "mental illness"?

 

[Slog]

So are you telling me that Muslims get offended if someone draws a cartoon of their prophet but not when someone destroys mosques, rewrites Qur'an and labels their religion a "mental illness"?

Yes pretty much. Unless the issue is in a historically holy site such as Mecca, Medina or Jerusalem. I obv don’t agree with such reactions but mocking the Prophet PBUH will def draw a more pan Islamic reaction compared to persecution of an ethnic muslim minority group in China, Sudan, Russia etc.

 

[Mesozoic]

Yes pretty much. Unless the issue is in a historically holy site such as Mecca, Medina or Jerusalem. I obv don’t agree with such reactions but mocking the Prophet PBUH will def draw a more pan Islamic reaction compared to persecution of an ethnic muslim minority group in China, Sudan, Russia etc.

But persecution's not the only issue here right? They can do that without destroying places of islamic worship, tweeking the holy book by their whims and by mocking the whole ideology.

Surely that's a bigger offense than displaying caricatures right?

 

[Slog]

But persecution's not the only issue here right? They can do that without destroying places of islamic worship, tweeking the holy book by their whims and by mocking the whole ideology.

Surely that's a bigger offense than displaying caricatures right?

It’s bigger offence in my book but that does not matter here. The issue is how much people know about it and are affected by it. Hardly anyone in the Muslim world knows about what’s happening in China because neither the western media covers it nor the Middle East media. And more importantly there’s no first hand information through a diaspora. The average guy on the street doesn’t know and lot will it affect as much.

In case of France there is a huge Muslim diaspora there which maintains links with Muslim countries. So the news reaches back home as well. And due to thag and free media to top it off the average guy on the street learns about it unlike the case of China where there’s a clampdown and no diaspora link to relay first hand information. That’s the difference. Those are affecting the ethnic uighurs and not the larger Muslim community (who would get exposed to it through the diaspora and free media if that existed). These are two reasons why if something happens in France or Europe it will have a greater impact and media interest in Muslim countries.

I have tried to explain why it is how it is in good faith. Ofcourse it goes against the narrative that many Indians would like to ascribe to and You are free to believe the convenient narrative of money that you want to believe but unfortunately that’s not how it is in this case.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Yes, what you are saying here is true, and if I am being empathetic yes it is highly insulting to depict Mohammad in a cartoon. However what muslims need to realize is, in the west and a lot of other non muslim majority countries, no one cares about Mohammad, he is literally nothing to those people, so they will voice or express their thoughts on him. If muslims don't like it, maybe they should not be living there in the first place ? they are more than welcome to protest, however this head cutting , stabbing and other means of extreme violence endangering lives is simply NOT ON... It is impossible to stop what non muslims say or express about Mohammad. Wasn't there a painting about Jesus being bathed in Urine a few decades ago ? Barring a small protest in Australia, no one got their heads or other body parts cut off..

Not really sure what your point is here.

1. Terrorists shouldn't be terrorists...well I think we would all agree there.

2. Protesting is ok though...fine, well we've cleared that up.

If Muslims don't like it they shouldn't live there....ok, well not really sure how that would stop choppings or stabbings since those people will not really care about living anywhere by that stage.

 

[KingKhanWC]

If you stop rolling on the floor and actually read what I said, you might get my point albeit you are not the sharpest tool in the box.

I didn’t say anything about the facial hair of Tibetans. Forget the Tibetans and focus on what they are doing in Xinjiang to your fellow Muslim brothers.

Let me ask again - why does China need to ban beards, ban recitation of Quran, destroy mosques and stop people from fasting etc. to stop an independence movement?

What does practicing your religion have to do with demanding independence?

Why is the Chinese government targeting the religion of these people?

Is it impossible to contain this independence movement without abusing their religion?

LOL

I wrote earlier thousands of monasteries have been destroyed. They are holy religious buildings of Tibetans.

Please stop, im spending too much time on the floor. )

 

[Mamoon]

LOL

I wrote earlier thousands of monasteries have been destroyed. They are holy religious buildings of Tibetans.

Please stop, im spending too much time on the floor. )

Let me rephrase my question so that you can get up from the floor?

Why does China have to target religion to suppress independence movements? Why do they blame religion for it?

I know you don’t have answer but I would like to see how you defend China’s course of action.

 

[rhony]

You’re pretty much right. India gets flak from Pakistan because the Muslims are Kashmiris who Pakistanis considered countrymen and also have historical links to. If India was some random country in Africa with no links then they would not get same criticism obv since it’s not a direct link. I thought you’d have the brains to understand that. A chinese Muslim is in the same boat as a Sudanese muslim. Whereas what France is allegedly doing is attacking the Prophet PBUH who is loved by all Muslims.

What my "brains" don't comprehend is why the muslims are turning up in thousands on economic migration to these european countries if they really care for their religion. France has a brutal past with muslims in particular.

Your selective criteria is in odds with the concept of Ummah though. This precisely is why nobody cared about Imran's rhetoric about Nazi Modi etc. This duality seems to be embedded into popular culture and the hypocrisy with which you were trying to spin it is hilarious.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Not really sure what your point is here.

1. Terrorists shouldn't be terrorists...well I think we would all agree there.

2. Protesting is ok though...fine, well we've cleared that up.

If Muslims don't like it they shouldn't live there....ok, well not really sure how that would stop choppings or stabbings since those people will not really care about living anywhere by that stage.

Britstanis usually struggle to get the point on a lot of occasions CAP. I guess point is; Muslims could get isolated or who knows maybe worse, like new strict laws being introduced for muslims only, if they come to non muslim countries and start going schizophrenic when the non muslims in those countries use their freedom of expression..

I just heard about another potenial terrorist incident in Switzerland, https://www.politico.eu/article/two-injured-in-swiss-knife-attack/ The way things are going; in 10 years time the world could be a tough place for Muslims in general.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Britstanis usually struggle to get the point on a lot of occasions CAP. I guess point is; Muslims could get isolated or who knows maybe worse, like new strict laws being introduced for muslims only, if they come to non muslim countries and start going schizophrenic when the non muslims in those countries use their freedom of expression..

I just heard about another potenial terrorist incident in Switzerland, https://www.politico.eu/article/two-injured-in-swiss-knife-attack/ The way things are going; in 10 years time the world could be a tough place for Muslims in general.

Why would strict new laws be introduced for Muslims only in a secular country? I would think that when Muslims go abroad, they will do so trusting in the laws and principles are applied as according to the standards non-Muslim countries themselves set. If those get changed then the only conclusion can be that those countries don't really believe in their own principles.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Let me rephrase my question so that you can get up from the floor?

Why does China have to target religion to suppress independence movements? Why do they blame religion for it?

I know you don’t have answer but I would like to see how you defend China’s course of action.

LOL.

A weak attempt to divert. Irrelevent.

The point was China targets all people who go against the state. They changes mosques, they have destroyed thousands of religious buildings from other faiths.

Please accept you have lost this debate and move on. My advice is you are too quick to defend India and defend arguments from Indians, this will always make you look bad.