Chokers of the game

Wattoo

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Chokers!

I guess you are talking about the South African team? Not really.

In the game of cricket, a team that is staggering before the finish line many a times involving all top teams of the world is called a choker. Surprisingly only South Africa's team comes to everyone's mind whenever cricket pundits are discussing this term. I wonder why none of the experts/analysts/statisticians dig into this matter deep to discover reality.

SA's team and management keep on denying that they are potential chokers and never admitted it publicly until the recent Champions Trophy exit (and they were right as you will also realize/accept after reading this post until the end) when their coach and ex-opener Garry Kristen accepted this fact after their defeat against England.

Last night, this thought came to my mind to have a look into this matter. That’s why I started investigating this matter. My analysis"

a) Includes three major ICC tournaments - World Cup, Champions Trophy and World Twenty20.

b) Includes only five major Test playing nations because Australia, India and West Indies have won the World Cup more than once. Moreover India & West Indies also have won the World T20.

c) Does not include minnows.

Here is the summary of Finals and Semi-Finals lost by teams in the three major ICC tournaments mentioned above:

1zr1b3o.png

Well if we see the Total column of (Finals+Semi-Finals game lost) the table, SA is at the bottom of table, proving all of the cricket pundits & fans are at the wrong end. For my surprise, Pakistan is leading the table. But this table is bit misleading. As Finals are more important games than Semi-finals, obviously carrying more weight.

So, here is separate table for No. of Finals and Semi-Finals games lost by these nations.

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Surprise na..!

Again SA is at the bottom of the table. England are leading with five big Finals losses while the Semi-Final list is dominated by Pakistan with nine losses.

Like many others, I also consider T20I a type of entertainment for people and a money making game for the ICC and cricket boards and don’t consider it a form of cricket. That’s why I have excluded the T20I format stats and a table for 50-overs formats (World Cup and Champion Trophy games) has been presented here.

214wkeh.jpg

Surprise… ! Surprise…! Surprise…!

England, New Zealand & Pakistan are on the top of the list before the South African team can makean any entry. Again, as this is a combined table and a bit misleading due to the fact discussed above, I have split the table for Finals and Semi-Finals for 50-over games.

280uxll.png



10eobxi.png

The Finals table shows that England are way ahead of other teams, while the so called chokers are at the bottom of table with no Final lost. In the Semi-Final list, the SA team has made an entry for the first time on top, but wait..not alone but with two other teams - Pakistan and New Zealand.

Did it not surprise you that the SA team are not chokers?
Well if they are not chokers, which team is?

Looking on the above tables and considering

1) Sri Lanka have won a World Cup and the Champion Trophy.
2) Pakistan have won a World Cup.
3) Both South Africa and New Zealand have won the Champions Trophy.

And

4) England have never won any final of 50-over games. They have played 5 Finals (2nd most after Australia) and 3 Semi-Finals and lost every time.

Without any doubt, ENGLAND is the real choker of the game.

What do you people think? Discuss.
 
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By chokers we mean the team being potentially stronger than the opposition in a knockout situation and makes a mess of things. England in most cases in crunch/knockout games has been a bit weaker than opposition. On the contrary Proteas fit the bill of being CHOKERS
 
By chokers we mean the team being potentially stronger than the opposition in a knockout situation and makes a mess of things. England in most cases in crunch/knockout games has been a bit weaker than opposition. On the contrary Proteas fit the bill of being CHOKERS

Barring 1979 World cup final, in all other four finals English team was not weaker than opposition.
 
I think only in 92 world cup and against WI in CT it was stronger; in rest either weaker or equal
 
I think only in 92 world cup and against WI in CT it was stronger; in rest either weaker or equal

In 1987 England team was little bit better than Australian team, while in recent champions England had a better bowling attack and almost equal batting lineup with opposition team India.

Still, this proves that England is choker by losing so many Finals & semi Finals. On the other hand South Africa have won atleast one champion trophy. Plus no of semi finals lost are equal to other nations.

Moreover no game is crunch/crucial than Semi finals and Finals. I did not look into other knock out games due to lack of time.
 
Bangladesh in tests. We always choke when an upset is in our site.

2003 vs Pakistan
2006 vs Aus
2008 vs NZ
2010 vs India
2012 vs WI
 
good thread wattoo

England followed by PAK and SA are bad performers in crunch games.
 
England are not chokers, they just suck. South Africans are because they have started most of those failed tourneys as firm favorites or top ranked ODI team yet lost when it mattered and in hilarious/embarrassing ways.
 
England are not chokers, they just suck. South Africans are because they have started most of those failed tourneys as firm favorites or top ranked ODI team yet lost when it mattered and in hilarious/embarrassing ways.

exactly I think poster doesn't understand the term chokers
 
A few correcting facts here :

1. We are comparing Eng with SA. Eng started their world cup in 1975, and 4 SF were played before 1992 WC. SA has managed to do it in less number of opportunities than Eng.

2. SA has NEVER won a knockout game in WC. This is a telling effect. Eng got over the knockout stage 3 times.

3. I think for WC, we should add QF also as in 1996 and 2011, the first knockout stage was QF.

4. We have to see that in 1996 and 2011, SA topped their group while Eng was at bottom in 1996 and third in 2011. A top team from group losing to bottom team of the other group is more significant. In fact in 1996, SA topped their group without losing a single match.

Thank you.
 
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England are not chokers, they just suck. South Africans are because they have started most of those failed tourneys as firm favorites or top ranked ODI team yet lost when it mattered and in hilarious/embarrassing ways.

I think Eng was a top team till 1992 WC.. they choked in 87/92 where they were favourites.. sure in 1979, they were playing against the great team.
 
England were never good enough to be called 'chokers' in any ICC event. South Africa always enter any event as the team to beat and hence people get surprised when they get knocked out in important matches.
 
England were never good enough to be called 'chokers' in any ICC event. South Africa always enter any event as the team to beat and hence people get surprised when they get knocked out in important matches.

Ding Ding Ding :waqar
 
England were never good enough to be called 'chokers' in any ICC event. South Africa always enter any event as the team to beat and hence people get surprised when they get knocked out in important matches.

Never is too strong a word. They were favourites in 87 and 92 WC finals.
 
South Africa because of their ODI tournament history, not necessarily the ICC events alone.

We can say unfortunate in 1992 WC

Then had something called Hero cup in India. They were going pretty nicely yet managed to lose in the last over against India in the SF.

1996 WC. One of the favorites. Won all league matches dominantly, lost to a subdued WI team in QF

In the same year or next year, a Titan cup triangular series in India with India and Australia. It was a long series with 3 matches each other, SA demolished the opponents in every match they played. It was a fight between IND and AUS to the final and India sneaked through to the final. Best of 3 final and you know the result :)

1998 Champions Trophy won and the unofficial Commonwealth games cricket gold medal. Gave a feeling that finally they have shed the chokers tag.

Tag came back in 1999 WC after a terrific performance.

2000 Champions trophy, though not as choking as the above ones. Lost the SF to a strong Indian team in a gradual way.

2002 Champions Trophy, epic choke against India when all set to win.

Then comes the 2003 WC, the host and the favorites!!

I don't quite remember the rest of the history.
 
In T20 WC 2007 for example, they were all set to qualify for SF, with 2 wins already, then managed to lose to India and that too so badly that their run rate went below NZ.. :)

This is major choking despite it being the case before SF.
 
I shall reply to all in 2-3 days time, I may not be able to login due to some issues. At the moment I am login from my friend laptop. Please have patience, I shall return soon.
All of your posts need alot of time to search and reply. See you soon. :)
 
Engand aren't chokers, they've just never been good enough like NZ.

They should have won the CT though.
 
Engand aren't chokers, they've just never been good enough like NZ.

They should have won the CT though.

They have never been good enough just like NZ. I think you placed 'just' before it should have been put.
 
Bangladesh in tests. We always choke when an upset is in our site.

2003 vs Pakistan
2006 vs Aus
2008 vs NZ
2010 vs India
2012 vs WI

lol 5 games in 13 years where the team has come close to winning?

says it all...shouldn't even have test status
 
Choking isn't limited to tournaments. It refers to losing from a winning position.

We're most commonly associated with it because the term was popularised when we drew the '99 semi-final to get knocked out, after Klusener brought us back into the game and we needed 1 to win off 4 balls.
 
I shall reply to all in 2-3 days time, I may not be able to login due to some issues. At the moment I am login from my friend laptop. Please have patience, I shall return soon.
All of your posts need alot of time to search and reply. See you soon. :)

Sure, waiting for your further analysis on this. Will be interesting if you are able to bust this 'myth' about SA being the premier chokers. I like myth busters / cliche busters threads very much, though in this case, I think you have a tough task ahead.

Go for it anyway.
 
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Pakistan aren't chokers, we're mercurial, which is like choking but much much cooler.
 
"Choking" has NOTHING to do with the result. It's the manner of defeat. And that isn't quantitative.
 
I think OP misunderstood the word chokers. Choking is when a team that is good and also performs good in the tournament, all of a sudden losses the crucial match; hence south africa comes to mind.

Pakistan are never known as a strong team, neither is england. New Zealand doesn't perform good during all year around, but perform very good in ICC tournaments, but they still can't be known as chokers.

South Africa has got the best players, and is considered the best team and performs really good in ICC tornaments, until the semi finals come and they loss it
 
Just noticed that this thread is so old. Was gonna vote it for Pete!
 
England lost twice to WI of all teams despite fielding a stronger team in a CT and T20 final. They are the real chokers of the game.
 
Not that every loss is a choke.

For example, Pakistan and India lost (that's not choking) the finals in '99 and 2003 respectively. Lost to a players' group of far superior skills that didn't betray on the given days.

Spreadsheet warriors manipulating to distort the facts.
 
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