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Christian Men Accused Of Blasphemy For Reciting Bible In Lahore

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Two Christian men identified as Haroon Masih and Salamat Masih were accused of blasphemy by a mob of Muslim men in Lahore for reciting the Holy Bible in a public place.

Activist Marvi Sirmed tweeted about the incident and called on the authorities to look into the matter.

Both men were reportedly sitting in a corner of a park in Model Town, Lahore and reciting the bible. A Muslim man overheard them and told them to stop the recitation, saying that they were committing blasphemy by preaching their religion. When they denied the blasphemy charges, he got aggressive and began to shout.

The man’s shouting grabbed the attention of other people present nearby and they surrounded the Christen men. Police were called after which one of the men was arrested, while the other one managed to escape.

Source:https://www.google.com.hk/amp/s/nay...ed-of-blasphemy-for-reciting-bible-in-lahore/
 
This is so screwed up. Even during Zia’s era of extreme right wing religiousness I don’t recall such stupid ** happening. This is terrible.
 
This is so screwed up. Even during Zia’s era of extreme right wing religiousness I don’t recall such stupid ** happening. This is terrible.

The worst is that no government official or minister ever condemns or even acknowledges such despicable actions. These sort of incident happen every week! At least once a week!
 
If the Christian men are accused of Blasphemy, they must have said that Jesus is God. Openly going against the teachings of Quran.
 
If the Christian men are accused of Blasphemy, they must have said that Jesus is God. Openly going against the teachings of Quran.

I am pretty sure if you go by the definition of blasphemy, strictly by the book, no non muslim minorities will be able to practice their faith in Pakistan. Islam extends religious protections to non Muslims in a muslim state. Some of them are debatable, such as reciting non muslim text out aloud in public is not considered part of those protections according to some schools of thought. You cannot preach your faith, or have bells and announcements of your religious places of worship, from what I remember.

Those are some of the more stricter interpretations. But I am quite sure, in this day and age, nobody is going to slap the label of blasphemy on you if you are sitting somewhere reading the bible out loud in a Muslim country. I think its ridiculous. Why are so we insecure and sensitive about this stuff? If we believe our faith and Islam is the one true religion, we should not feel threatened by such minor incidents at all.
 
I am pretty sure if you go by the definition of blasphemy, strictly by the book, no non muslim minorities will be able to practice their faith in Pakistan. Islam extends religious protections to non Muslims in a muslim state. Some of them are debatable, such as reciting non muslim text out aloud in public is not considered part of those protections according to some schools of thought. You cannot preach your faith, or have bells and announcements of your religious places of worship, from what I remember.

Those are some of the more stricter interpretations. But I am quite sure, in this day and age, nobody is going to slap the label of blasphemy on you if you are sitting somewhere reading the bible out loud in a Muslim country. I think its ridiculous. Why are so we insecure and sensitive about this stuff? If we believe our faith and Islam is the one true religion, we should not feel threatened by such minor incidents at all.

I think you have answered your own question. The last part
 
It would have been quite easy for the accusers to have taken video footage of the Christians preaching Christianity publicly ( which I assume is an offence in Pakistan) and that would have construed as evidence against the accused. I think the onus needs to be on those bringing the charges to prove their case.

This is another one of those which is an easy fix. In this day and age the law should require some form of evidence before charges are brought to prevent spurious claims which can often be driven by ulterior motives.
 
It would have been quite easy for the accusers to have taken video footage of the Christians preaching Christianity publicly ( which I assume is an offence in Pakistan) and that would have construed as evidence against the accused. I think the onus needs to be on those bringing the charges to prove their case.

This is another one of those which is an easy fix. In this day and age the law should require some form of evidence before charges are brought to prevent spurious claims which can often be driven by ulterior motives.

U can’t preach Christianity in Pakistan?
 
U can’t preach Christianity in Pakistan?

Apostasy is a crime in most Islamic countries, as is proselytism into religions other than Islam. So yes, preaching any religion other than Islam would be a crime.

Although I don't think two Christians reading the Bible among themselves amounts to any attempt at proselytism.

As for blasphemy, I thought it applied only to people who are insulting Islam or The Prophet (PBUH)?
 
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U can’t preach Christianity in Pakistan?

Apostasy is a crime in most Islamic countries, as is proselytism into religions other than Islam. So yes, preaching any religion other than Islam would be a crime.

Although I don't think two Christians reading the Bible among themselves amounts to any attempt at proselytism.

As for blasphemy, I thought it applied only to people who are insulting Islam or The Prophet (PBUH)?

This is from the Pakistan constitution.

20 Freedom to profess religion and to manage religious institutions.
Subject to law, public order and morality:-
(a) every citizen shall have the right to profess, practice and propagate his religion; and
(b) every religious denomination and every sect thereof shall have the right to establish, maintain and manage its religious institutions.
 
It would have been quite easy for the accusers to have taken video footage of the Christians preaching Christianity publicly ( which I assume is an offence in Pakistan) and that would have construed as evidence against the accused. I think the onus needs to be on those bringing the charges to prove their case.

This is another one of those which is an easy fix. In this day and age the law should require some form of evidence before charges are brought to prevent spurious claims which can often be driven by ulterior motives.

Their is a proposed reform to that effect.

A Senate Special Committee on Human Rights on Tuesday recommended that perpetrators of false accusations of blasphemy be given the same punishment as set for those convicted for blasphemy.

"Anyone falsely accusing someone of blasphemy should be subjected to the same punishment as a person convicted of blasphemy," the recommendation stated.

The punishment for blasphemy in Pakistan ranges from several years in prison to a death sentence. Under existing laws, a person making a false accusation can only face proceedings under Section 182 of the Pakistan Penal Code, which entails a maximum punishment of six months, or a mere Rs1,000 fine.

The recommendation also stated that anyone looking to register a blasphemy case at a police station should have to bring two witnesses to support their accusation.



https://www.dawn.com/news/1393538
 
U can’t preach Christianity in Pakistan?

I don't know, that's why I specifically put that rider in brackets about assuming that public propagation might be an offence. I am not really well versed in Pakistani law, but maybe it's similar to some Arab countries which allow private worship but not public.
 
Their is a proposed reform to that effect.

A Senate Special Committee on Human Rights on Tuesday recommended that perpetrators of false accusations of blasphemy be given the same punishment as set for those convicted for blasphemy.

"Anyone falsely accusing someone of blasphemy should be subjected to the same punishment as a person convicted of blasphemy," the recommendation stated.

The punishment for blasphemy in Pakistan ranges from several years in prison to a death sentence. Under existing laws, a person making a false accusation can only face proceedings under Section 182 of the Pakistan Penal Code, which entails a maximum punishment of six months, or a mere Rs1,000 fine.

The recommendation also stated that anyone looking to register a blasphemy case at a police station should have to bring two witnesses to support their accusation.



https://www.dawn.com/news/1393538

These are some good steps to counter this growing issue due to extremism. The blasphemy law has been unfortunately weaponized to persecute minorities. I have always said, majority of blasphemy cases once properly investigated will show that the cause was some sort of individual enmity. If the accused was worried about being prosecuted to the fullest if found to be a lying then majority of these cases won't pop up. Ironically up until 1990 you hardly heard of these. In Islam "Bearing false witness" is a grave sin.
 
Their is a proposed reform to that effect.

A Senate Special Committee on Human Rights on Tuesday recommended that perpetrators of false accusations of blasphemy be given the same punishment as set for those convicted for blasphemy.

"Anyone falsely accusing someone of blasphemy should be subjected to the same punishment as a person convicted of blasphemy," the recommendation stated.

The punishment for blasphemy in Pakistan ranges from several years in prison to a death sentence. Under existing laws, a person making a false accusation can only face proceedings under Section 182 of the Pakistan Penal Code, which entails a maximum punishment of six months, or a mere Rs1,000 fine.

The recommendation also stated that anyone looking to register a blasphemy case at a police station should have to bring two witnesses to support their accusation.



https://www.dawn.com/news/1393538


I think that last bit about bringing two witnesses doesn't stand up to modern scrutiny. You could easily get two buddies to be 'witnesses'. This sort of accusation needs a lot more rigorous burden of proof, witnesses are of course one layer, but you would like to think witness statements would need corroboration.
 
I think that last bit about bringing two witnesses doesn't stand up to modern scrutiny. You could easily get two buddies to be 'witnesses'. This sort of accusation needs a lot more rigorous burden of proof, witnesses are of course one layer, but you would like to think witness statements would need corroboration.

I agree that the witness thing is not good enough. However giving the false accuser of blasphemy the same punishment might deter people from making these false accusations.
 
Their is a proposed reform to that effect.

A Senate Special Committee on Human Rights on Tuesday recommended that perpetrators of false accusations of blasphemy be given the same punishment as set for those convicted for blasphemy.

"Anyone falsely accusing someone of blasphemy should be subjected to the same punishment as a person convicted of blasphemy," the recommendation stated.

The punishment for blasphemy in Pakistan ranges from several years in prison to a death sentence. Under existing laws, a person making a false accusation can only face proceedings under Section 182 of the Pakistan Penal Code, which entails a maximum punishment of six months, or a mere Rs1,000 fine.

The recommendation also stated that anyone looking to register a blasphemy case at a police station should have to bring two witnesses to support their accusation.



https://www.dawn.com/news/1393538

Why not just get rid of the law. Have a hate speech law instead. The blasphemy law is an infringement on human rights but also invites false accusations.
 
Some of us are just hate filled zealots. I won’t say the whole nation is like it but I have noticed that there is a lot of hate for the christians and we bash Hindus for caste system but we really don’t realize that we are treating the Christians like trash. We call them chooras or chootia, relegated to cleaning homes and absolute lowest of the low. No respect at all.

So when stuff like this happens, people gang up on them and believe whatever they are told. It’s a pretty terrible situation. I know Imran is doing a lot to help the minorities but I think we as a nation should really take a long hard look at ourselves as well.
 
Why not just get rid of the law. Have a hate speech law instead. The blasphemy law is an infringement on human rights but also invites false accusations.

Because it's Pakistan and their outlook is not the same as Britain or Canada. Most people there won't have caught up with concepts like hate speech or human rights, or maybe they have a different interpretation to westerners, so the way to address it would be to look for common ground to arrive at a just conclusion. Justice is a pretty universal concept so should not be impossible.
 
Why not just get rid of the law. Have a hate speech law instead. The blasphemy law is an infringement on human rights but also invites false accusations.

Its politically impossible. And if you reform it, it will be similar to a hate speech law. Basically dont insult anyone's religion. Otherwise you get punished. All religions need to be treated equal.
 
Some of us are just hate filled zealots. I won’t say the whole nation is like it but I have noticed that there is a lot of hate for the christians and we bash Hindus for caste system but we really don’t realize that we are treating the Christians like trash. We call them chooras or chootia, relegated to cleaning homes and absolute lowest of the low. No respect at all.

So when stuff like this happens, people gang up on them and believe whatever they are told. It’s a pretty terrible situation. I know Imran is doing a lot to help the minorities but I think we as a nation should really take a long hard look at ourselves as well.

Punjabi Christians were for the most part Dalits who converted to Christianity. So some people call them by their old Hindu caste name as a insult, which is wrong, and needs to be condemned.

However their is a difference between Muslims and Hindus on this issue. Muslims wont call Dalits who convert to Islam by their old caste names as an insult. However some Hindus do abuse members of their own religion who happen to be low caste.
 
Punjabi Christians were for the most part Dalits who converted to Christianity. So some people call them by their old Hindu caste name as a insult, which is wrong, and needs to be condemned.

However their is a difference between Muslims and Hindus on this issue. Muslims wont call Dalits who convert to Islam by their old caste names as an insult. However some Hindus do abuse members of their own religion who happen to be low caste.

You are wrong on the last paragraph. The low caste and Dalit/tribal Muslims of India are called Pasmanda Muslims. They are massively discriminated against by Ashraf Muslims who are mostly high caste and the ones who came from outside of India. There is a racial element in it too.
Ashrafs do not marry Pasmanda Muslims.
 
You are wrong on the last paragraph. The low caste and Dalit/tribal Muslims of India are called Pasmanda Muslims. They are massively discriminated against by Ashraf Muslims who are mostly high caste and the ones who came from outside of India. There is a racial element in it too.
Ashrafs do not marry Pasmanda Muslims.

He's talking about Pakistan not India, also Indian Hindus tend to exaggerate the so called "Muslim caste" system", it's their way of deflecting guilt and makes them feel better when they can say "It's not just us!!!!1" but there's absolutely no comparison. People around the world tend to marry people of similar social class and educational levels, that has nothing to do with a so called "Muslim caste", how can you can expected a college educated banker to marry jive with someone that never studied beyond the 3rd grade. Don't conflate social class with "caste", the former is a bigger factor in Muslim marriages than the latter.
 
He's talking about Pakistan not India, also Indian Hindus tend to exaggerate the so called "Muslim caste" system", it's their way of deflecting guilt and makes them feel better when they can say "It's not just us!!!!1" but there's absolutely no comparison. People around the world tend to marry people of similar social class and educational levels, that has nothing to do with a so called "Muslim caste", how can you can expected a college educated banker to marry jive with someone that never studied beyond the 3rd grade. Don't conflate social class with "caste", the former is a bigger factor in Muslim marriages than the latter.

80% of Muslims in India are Pasmanda Muslims. But they are the most backward people in India and extremely poor. The Ashrafs are the ruling class and make Ullu out of Pasmandas. They are treated like dirt and never mix with the low caste ones. The Low caste Muslims are not treated equals by Ashrafs . People like you not making it a big deal is the reason why majority of Indian Muslims are poor and have no political power. They are kept as vote bank by Ashrafs.

I only mentioned Pasmanda because of the Hindu - Dalit comparison that was made.
 
80% of Muslims in India are Pasmanda Muslims. But they are the most backward people in India and extremely poor. The Ashrafs are the ruling class and make Ullu out of Pasmandas. They are treated like dirt and never mix with the low caste ones. The Low caste Muslims are not treated equals by Ashrafs . People like you not making it a big deal is the reason why majority of Indian Muslims are poor and have no political power. They are kept as vote bank by Ashrafs.

I only mentioned Pasmanda because of the Hindu - Dalit comparison that was made.

I don't know what your source for those figures, seems highly exaggerated but then again that's par for the course for Hindu nationalists. Indian Muslims are poor because of India - it's a poor country with very little social mobility in addition to the fact that Muslims also face discrimination and Islamophobia in India's caste ridden society. People marry people of similar educational and financial backgrounds, people will always prefer marrying someone that had a similar upbringing as them and this hold true across different countries and religious group, it isn't a caste thing; Hindu nationalists have created this "Ashraf" boogeyman that has never existed. Most Muslims don't even know whatever tf a "Pasmaqanda" is, sounds like an italian dish.
 
Apostasy is a crime in most Islamic countries, as is proselytism into religions other than Islam. So yes, preaching any religion other than Islam would be a crime.

Although I don't think two Christians reading the Bible among themselves amounts to any attempt at proselytism.

As for blasphemy, I thought it applied only to people who are insulting Islam or The Prophet (PBUH)?

Do U agree with that Christians should not be allowed to preach
 
This is from the Pakistan constitution.

20 Freedom to profess religion and to manage religious institutions.
Subject to law, public order and morality:-
(a) every citizen shall have the right to profess, practice and propagate his religion; and
(b) every religious denomination and every sect thereof shall have the right to establish, maintain and manage its religious institutions.

I don’t know if that’s clear
 
I don't know what your source for those figures, seems highly exaggerated but then again that's par for the course for Hindu nationalists. Indian Muslims are poor because of India - it's a poor country with very little social mobility in addition to the fact that Muslims also face discrimination and Islamophobia in India's caste ridden society. People marry people of similar educational and financial backgrounds, people will always prefer marrying someone that had a similar upbringing as them and this hold true across different countries and religious group, it isn't a caste thing; Hindu nationalists have created this "Ashraf" boogeyman that has never existed. Most Muslims don't even know whatever tf a "Pasmaqanda" is, sounds like an italian dish.

Your post shows your level of ignorance. Every low caste Muslim in the states of Bihar, Uttar Pradesh and Madhya Pradesh knows what Pasmanda is. You don’t have to demean the name if you don’t know it.
 
You are wrong on the last paragraph. The low caste and Dalit/tribal Muslims of India are called Pasmanda Muslims. They are massively discriminated against by Ashraf Muslims who are mostly high caste and the ones who came from outside of India.

This concept does not exist in Pakistan. Maybe because the "Ashraf" would be a small minority. Like in Punjab and Sindh we have some people with surnames of Arab, Persian, Turkic origin. But there are way way more people with surnames of Rajput, Gujjar, Jatt, Arain, Brahmin, Baloch, pathan origin. And alot more people with various other Baradaris.

No one is doing puja or is impressed in anyway with anyone having a "foreign" surname. People are impressed with money here.

Here are some Punjabis and their baradari.

Nawaz Sharif was a Kashmir Butt - which is Brahmin oigin
Ex COAS Raheel Sharif- Rajput
Imran Khan- Pathan
COAS Qamar Bajwa- Jatt
Chief Minister Usman Buzdar - Baloch


There is a racial element in it too. Ashrafs do not marry Pasmanda Muslims.

Mughals would be Ashraf right? Look at the sons of Bahadur Shah Zafar pictures.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3d/Ghulam_Ali_Khan_017b.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/eb/AbbasM.JPG

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/27/Sons_of_Bahadur_Shah_Zafar.jpg


Do they look like they have any foreign blood at all? The so called Ashrafs are racially the same as the other Muslims. What ever foreign blood that they had was diluted through the generations.
 
Your post shows your level of ignorance. Every low caste Muslim in the states of Bihar, Uttar Pradesh and Madhya Pradesh knows what Pasmanda is. You don’t have to demean the name if you don’t know it.

My family is Urdu Speaking. In case you dont know, but in Pakistan Urdu Speaking refers to Muslims who came during partition from Delhi, UP, MP, Deccan, Bihar etc, who had Urdu as their mother tongue.

Unlike Punjabi's and Sindhi's who have a baradari we call it zaat. Its similar concept, but i have never heard anyone use the term Pasmanda in real life. I have read about it, but it might be something that poor Muslims in India use to get benefits. Like Hindu Dalits get benefits, so they might have coined the term Pasmanda in order to get free stuff.

In Karachi Urdu Speaking are the majority, so its not even a question of us assimilating into Punjabi and Sindhi culture. Karachi culture is basically UP, Delhi, Deccan, etc Muslim culture.

People in Karachi do use words like chammar, and Bhanghi as an insult. But it did not have any caste connotations. Its just a way to insult someone, and can be used against anyone. I doubt anyone knows that those are actually Hindu castes.
 
People in Karachi do use words like chammar, and Bhanghi as an insult. But it did not have any caste connotations. Its just a way to insult someone, and can be used against anyone. I doubt anyone knows that those are actually Hindu castes.

Yes, those are secular and impartial terms to insult someone. Well said.
 
Your post shows your level of ignorance. Every low caste Muslim in the states of Bihar, Uttar Pradesh and Madhya Pradesh knows what Pasmanda is. You don’t have to demean the name if you don’t know it.

Agreed.

Besides, anyone with basic knowledge of Urdu would know that "Pasmanda" is translated as backwards and "Ashraf" is elite or high class.
 
On the OP, I'd say there's no point bickering about this among the public. What would be productive is to actively introduce chapters of religious tolerance and interfaith harmony in Islamic textbooks from primary school so that the next generation of non-Muslim Pakistanis doesn't have to worry about practicing/propagating their beliefs openly.
 
This is so screwed up. Even during Zia’s era of extreme right wing religiousness I don’t recall such stupid ** happening. This is terrible.

This is not "extreme right wing religiousness".

This is blatant MUNAFIQAT to the core.

Every other haram khore, rishwat khore, liar, cheater, deceiver, wife beater, pedophile etc is ready to chop the head off of anyone who is remotely accused of "blasphemy".

Just imagine if the news is true, and there was in fact a "mob", how many Pak daaman Farishta type folks you think you could've found in that "mob" ready to beat the crap out of the two accused?
 
I do not think Bible says Jesus is God.

Very true but for all intents and purposes he is God for Christians, because he is considered to be the result of a divine union between God and a mortal.

One of the assertions of Quran and Islam in general is that we recognize the Holy books of Abrahamic faiths (that includes Torah and Bible) as Holy books and the divine word of God, but they have lost their meaning over time due to changes made to them by man. So this right here is one of the best examples of that. Bible doesn’t say Jesus is God but he is pretty much believed to be God or God-like by Christians. Whereas Muslims believe in him as a Holy Prophet and the Spirit of God. ( Isa Rooh Ullah is his title in Islam)
 
This is why you shouldn't throw stones from glass houses. As much as many Pakistanis like to believe Pakistan treats their minorities better than India, I'm not sure that is the case. Both countries have terrible treatment of minorities, but I think it's far to say there is currently more vigilante/mob violence/domestic terrorism against minorities in India, but there is more discrimination against minorities enshrined in law in Pakistan (blasphemy law being very Islam-centric, Ahmadis not being able to call themselves Muslims by law). Both countries are a mess right now, and it will take a huge cultural shift to fix these problems.
 
This is why you shouldn't throw stones from glass houses. As much as many Pakistanis like to believe Pakistan treats their minorities better than India, I'm not sure that is the case. Both countries have terrible treatment of minorities, but I think it's far to say there is currently more vigilante/mob violence/domestic terrorism against minorities in India, but there is more discrimination against minorities enshrined in law in Pakistan (blasphemy law being very Islam-centric, Ahmadis not being able to call themselves Muslims by law). Both countries are a mess right now, and it will take a huge cultural shift to fix these problems.

Yes, Pakistan has it's growing pains to deal with this problem just as India does but at least we don't have those fascists in power ruling the country like you have in India. BIG DIFFERENCE !!
 
Pakistan may not be able to discard the Blasphemy Law, but they can most probably modify to add an abuse clause.

Individuals caught using the law for nefarious, nuisance, false accusation etc purposes should be severely punished accordingly.

Just like in the West how people should be punished for falsely accusing someone of rape and ruining their lives.
 
Yes, Pakistan has it's growing pains to deal with this problem just as India does but at least we don't have those fascists in power ruling the country like you have in India. BIG DIFFERENCE !!

Fascists come and go. Can Pakistan get rid of those draconian laws against minorities?
 
Fascists come and go. Can Pakistan get rid of those draconian laws against minorities?

Law is not the problem.
The use (or abuse) of the law is the issue.

And as many have posted above. The solution is, we need to introduce a more stricter law to punish a few of those who abuse this law.

Indian fascists and religious fanatics that are in power; however, are not going anywhere.
 
Islamic republic of Pakistan

we got our own country because of our religion

That is how it should be. Laws should aim to maximise the happiness of the maximum number of people, and minimize the unhappiness of the minimum number of people.
 
Fascists come and go. Can Pakistan get rid of those draconian laws against minorities?

Pakistan won't define their laws as Draconian, so why would they want to get rid of them? A better question would be, can they implement their law religiously, or will they continue to worship Lakshmi and put self interest first?
 
Ironic isn't it?

NPR, NRC, CAA ... which one is it?

Not allowing muslims from pakistan and BD into India as refugees is minority abuse of Muslims of India? How exactly?

Secondly, what right does a Pakistani or a Bangladeshi has to demand refugee status in India?
 
Not allowing muslims from pakistan and BD into India as refugees is minority abuse of Muslims of India? How exactly?

Secondly, what right does a Pakistani or a Bangladeshi has to demand refugee status in India?

Man, you are trying hard to be ignorant but it’s not working
 
Ironic isn't it?

NPR, NRC, CAA ... which one is it?

Read about NRC before coming up with such statements. It was already implemented in assam and Muslims also supported it.

NRC isn't based upon religion.

NRC isn't under govt of India.
 
You mentioned CAA. I told you what it is. Now tell me why not allowing muslims from Pak and BD as refugees is abuse of minorities in India.

CAA doesn't disallow muslim refugees. It merely gives preference to refugees who are minorites for the waiting time. It is a pro minority law.
 
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