Congratulations! Pakistan is the Number 1 ranked team in the ICC Test rankings! [August 2016]

[Analyze1]

superb work man

 

[Syed1]

I still can't believe it, I always thought we might win an ODI or T20 WC in the coming decades, but getting the number 1 spot in tests seemed unattainable.

Mashallah, the bowys played well

 

[Abdullah719]

Updated table after South Africa vs New Zealand series.

 

[MenInG]

SA move to 5th.

 

[MenInG]

Congrats everyone!

Very Well deserved MahsAllah!!

Seems like a lifetime ago!

 

[shah_1]

Lost 7 test matches out of 8

Lost 2 test matches out of 3 against West Indies

Greatest downfall ever

 

[Mamoon]

Our mediocre team continues to get exposed. Just goes to show how flukey the two wins in England were. Flat pitches and an unsettled English top-order along with injuries to some key players. Thankfully we are not playing India any time soon, they will smash us.

 

[Sidilicious]

Lost 7 test matches out of 8

Lost 2 test matches out of 3 against West Indies

Greatest downfall ever

Only 6. When did you lose the 7th match?

If you're talking about this match, don't lose hope. Only a 100 to go now.

 

[saeed5646]

Our mediocre team continues to get exposed. Just goes to show how flukey the two wins in England were. Flat pitches and an unsettled English top-order along with injuries to some key players. Thankfully we are not playing India any time soon, they will smash us.

england also lost a test in westindies

they also get humiliated in ban test series

failed in india miserably

what else these fluke less england team would have done to pakistan in december

 

[shah_1]

Only 6. When did you lose the 7th match?

If you're talking about this match, don't lose hope. Only a 100 to go now.

This will be the 7th

It's pretty obvious now

 

[MenInG]

belated reminder

 

[Buffet]

belated reminder

Well current situation is,



Pakistan normally hangs with 100 rating points so current rating point of 93 is is lower than the normal range. I think it will go up from here.

 

[Cricfan4eva]

Well current situation is,

View attachment 75932

Pakistan normally hangs with 100 rating points so current rating point of 93 is is lower than the normal range. I think it will go up from here.

By the end of SA series I expect ranking SA to be no.1 or at least close the gap if India is competitive and doesn't just get white-washed. Our best shot in the away season that's coming up is vs NZ and England.

We just suck at SA and are definitely bound a few bad sessions which almost always gives away the series and Australia well are too good at home to lose. Our pacers aren't nearly good enough to bundle them out twice.

 

[Cuts_and_cuts_hard]

India I believe have a chance in SA. SA's batting lineup is brittle right now, and India in the last tour in 2014 with pretty much the same side did extremely well, and could have easily drawn the series 1-1.

Since then, SA have become worse and India have improved by leaps and bounds. I expect a very competitive series.

 

[LastManstanding]

India I believe have a chance in SA. SA's batting lineup is brittle right now, and India in the last tour in 2014 with pretty much the same side did extremely well, and could have easily drawn the series 1-1.

Since then, SA have become worse and India have improved by leaps and bounds. I expect a very competitive series.

India will be travelling to SA just four days before the start of the first test. Not enough time to acclimatize. We are losing the first test for sure.

 

[Sin Nombre]

India will be travelling to SA just four days before the start of the first test. Not enough time to acclimatize. We are losing the first test for sure.

No warm up match?

 

[shaz619]

Well current situation is,

View attachment 75932

Pakistan normally hangs with 100 rating points so current rating point of 93 is is lower than the normal range. I think it will go up from here.

Ah such a damn shame, we need to play more series at home like India to reach no.1; it's a bit tough drawing level in England away from home

 

[Sin Nombre]

It is also a bit tough if you barely scrape past WI at home(including losing a match) and draw with SA, SL and NZ at "home".

One drawn series away does not hide all those poor results however one much bleats about a perceived injustice.

 

[Proactive_]

India being 15 points ahead of the pack has got to be the biggest joke of all time. That's a standard which teams like the WI of the 80s and the Aus of the early 00s set, and they beat everyone everywhere without fail. I wouldn't back this Indian team to win 1 test on green mambas against SA or Aus or Eng. ICC has got to do something about generalising the FTPs. I can fully sense BCCI curtailing the upcoming SA tour to 2 tests while they hosted them for 4.

 

[CricketCartoons]

India being 15 points ahead of the pack has got to be the biggest joke of all time. That's a standard which teams like the WI of the 80s and the Aus of the early 00s set, and they beat everyone everywhere without fail. I wouldn't back this Indian team to win 1 test on green mambas against SA or Aus or Eng. ICC has got to do something about generalising the FTPs. I can fully sense BCCI curtailing the upcoming SA tour to 2 tests while they hosted them for 4.

True. And to prevent this travesty, ICC must device a new ranking system where no points are given if you win on pitches similar as yours, even if it is away. Points given only when you win under alien conditions.

 

[Proactive_]

True. And to prevent this travesty, ICC must device a new ranking system where no points are given if you win on pitches similar as yours, even if it is away. Points given only when you win under alien conditions.

Actually it has been a long standing argument as to how the away wins/draws should be given more preference towards ratings than home matches, which seems like a reasonable argument.. BUT.. we've seen instances of SA blatantly flattening out the pitches whenever India tour to try to get full 5 days of that Indian advertising money, otherwise they're more than happy to dish out 50 All out grasslands to the likes of Aus, NZ et al.

The middle ground obviously, is to remove the authority from the hands of the home boards and have a neutral caretaker for the pitches in the case of International matches.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Actually it has been a long standing argument as to how the away wins/draws should be given more preference towards ratings than home matches, which seems like a reasonable argument.. BUT.. we've seen instances of SA blatantly flattening out the pitches whenever India tour to try to get full 5 days of that Indian advertising money, otherwise they're more than happy to dish out 50 All out grasslands to the likes of Aus, NZ et al.

The middle ground obviously, is to remove the authority from the hands of the home boards and have a neutral caretaker for the pitches in the case of International matches.

Test cricket should be reduced to 3 days, with one reserve day, and curators encouraged to make green mambas or dust bowls. Games which drag for 5 days are not good for test cricket.

 

[Proactive_]

Test cricket should be reduced to 3 days, with one reserve day, and curators encouraged to make green mambas or dust bowls. Games which drag for 5 days are not good for test cricket.

That's a fair scenario. But keep it 5 days. Any team to bat that well which takes the game to the 4th/5th days deserves a greater shot at victory tbh which might otherwise be denied by a matter of 10-15 overs. Rest is great.

 

[BreadPakoda]

India being 15 points ahead of the pack has got to be the biggest joke of all time. That's a standard which teams like the WI of the 80s and the Aus of the early 00s set, and they beat everyone everywhere without fail. I wouldn't back this Indian team to win 1 test on green mambas against SA or Aus or Eng. ICC has got to do something about generalising the FTPs. I can fully sense BCCI curtailing the upcoming SA tour to 2 tests while they hosted them for 4.

Ahemm.

Actually it has been a long standing argument as to how the away wins/draws should be given more preference towards ratings than home matches, which seems like a reasonable argument.. BUT.. we've seen instances of SA blatantly flattening out the pitches whenever India tour to try to get full 5 days of that Indian advertising money, otherwise they're more than happy to dish out 50 All out grasslands to the likes of Aus, NZ et al.

The middle ground obviously, is to remove the authority from the hands of the home boards and have a neutral caretaker for the pitches in the case of International matches.

This beauty again.

 

[Napa]

Aus of the early 00s set, and they beat everyone everywhere without fail.

Ahemm.

This beauty again.

Australia of the early 00s lost to India in 2001. Every Indian should know that given the most famous and unlikely Test win of all times courtesy Laxman and Dravid (and Tendulkar's best ever bowling performance!).

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/series/60702.html

 

[Tusker]

Australia of the early 00s lost to India in 2001. Every Indian should know that given the most famous and unlikely Test win of all times courtesy Laxman and Dravid (and Tendulkar's best ever bowling performance!).

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/series/60702.html

Nor did the WI team win the 1987 test series in India

 

[Napa]

Nor did the WI team win the 1987 test series in India

Or the two series they played before that, or the one they played after that

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/records/team/series_results.html?class=1;id=4;type=team

 

[Tusker]

Or the two series they played before that, or the one they played after that

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/records/team/series_results.html?class=1;id=4;type=team

Good stats there. Thats Damning. Ouch!! Must you always interrupt mungeri lals haseen aur rangeeley sapne ?

 

[Proactive_]

Australia of the early 00s lost to India in 2001. Every Indian should know that given the most famous and unlikely Test win of all times courtesy Laxman and Dravid (and Tendulkar's best ever bowling performance!).

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/series/60702.html

Aus. did win in 2004 though.

 

[Proactive_]

Good stats there. Thats Damning. Ouch!! Must you always interrupt mungeri lals haseen aur rangeeley sapne ?

WI didn't lose a single Test series home or away for 15 years. Kohli's team is on a pretty bad start in that regard with a 2-1 loss against arguably the worst SA side in quite some time.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/records/283960.html

This Indian team is nowhere near the Top test teams of all time.

 

[BreadPakoda]

WI didn't lose a single Test series home or away for 15 years. Kohli's team is on a pretty bad start in that regard with a 2-1 loss against arguably the worst SA side in quite some time.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/records/283960.html

This Indian team is nowhere near the Top test teams of all time.

Obviously picked and chose what you wanted to reply to.

Any thoughts on SA "preparing" flat pitches against India and "50 All out grasslands" against Ozzies?
And you didn't back this Indian team to win 1 test on green mambas against SA. What happened?

 

[Napa]

Good stats there. Thats Damning. Ouch!! Must you always interrupt mungeri lals haseen aur rangeeley sapne ?

WI didn't lose a single Test series home or away for 15 years. Kohli's team is on a pretty bad start in that regard with a 2-1 loss against arguably the worst SA side in quite some time.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/records/283960.html

This Indian team is nowhere near the Top test teams of all time.

Nice attempt at trying to change the subject. Both Tusker and my posts were in reply to your writing "they beat everyone everywhere without fail".

It is better to acknowledge you made a mistake than making a pathetic attempt to slime your way out thinking that others are stupid. You will get more respect.

 

[Proactive_]

Obviously picked and chose what you wanted to reply to.

Any thoughts on SA "preparing" flat pitches against India and "50 All out grasslands" against Ozzies?
And you didn't back this Indian team to win 1 test on green mambas against SA. What happened?

I didn't, and to be fair if Steyn was fit it would have been a pretty convincing 3-0 anyway. Still credit to India for pulling one back after finally realizing that Ajinkya Rahane is indeed a better Test option than Rohit freaking Sharma.

 

[Proactive_]

Nice attempt at trying to change the subject. Both Tusker and my posts were in reply to your writing "they beat everyone everywhere without fail".

It is better to acknowledge you made a mistake than making a pathetic attempt to slime your way out thinking that others are stupid. You will get more respect.

I obviously alluded to the fact that WI beat each and every team home and away in that period. Did you really take it as me saying that WI won each and EVERY series without fail ?

 

[BreadPakoda]

I didn't, and to be fair if Steyn was fit it would have been a pretty convincing 3-0 anyway. Still credit to India for pulling one back after finally realizing that Ajinkya Rahane is indeed a better Test option than Rohit freaking Sharma.

If India won the first 2 tosses, they would have won 3-0. That's how could've would've works.

Bottom line is - India won on a pace bowler friendly pitch
Point 2 - Seems like SA did not prepare flat belters to appease BCCI, proving conspiracy theorist like you wrong

 

[Tusker]

I obviously alluded to the fact that WI beat each and every team home and away in that period. Did you really take it as me saying that WI won each and EVERY series without fail ?

From Post 179 ... see the RED part below ... tell us why the above sentence means the same as below .. pay attention to the "Without fail" part

India being 15 points ahead of the pack has got to be the biggest joke of all time. That's a standard which teams like the WI of the 80s and the Aus of the early 00s set, and they beat everyone everywhere without fail. I wouldn't back this Indian team to win 1 test on green mambas against SA or Aus or Eng. ICC has got to do something about generalising the FTPs. I can fully sense BCCI curtailing the upcoming SA tour to 2 tests while they hosted them for 4.

 

[Itachi]

I obviously alluded to the fact that WI beat each and every team home and away in that period. Did you really take it as me saying that WI won each and EVERY series without fail ?

You just ruined your reputation here by contradicting your own statement!!!!

Very unfortunate event though.

 

[Proactive_]

From Post 179 ... see the RED part below ... tell us why the above sentence means the same as below .. pay attention to the "Without fail" part

You just ruined your reputation here by contradicting your own statement!!!!

Very unfortunate event though.

Without fail was obviously as in that they beat every team home and away in that period. You guys seriously interpreted it as me saying they won each and every match and series?

 

[Tusker]

WI didn't lose a single Test series home or away for 15 years. Kohli's team is on a pretty bad start in that regard with a 2-1 loss against arguably the worst SA side in quite some time.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/records/283960.html

This Indian team is nowhere near the Top test teams of all time.

Kohli is already ahead of Lloyd at home having won same no.of tests in 5 less matches played against better opposition (Remember no SL or SA in those days ) :

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...orderby=won;team=6;template=results;type=team

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...derby=start;team=4;template=results;type=team

the Away record is still early days to judge but again WI in the 70s and 80s did not have to deal with SA and SL and Aus , NZ of 80s was nowhere as strong a team as the current teams that Kohli plays against.

 

[big_gamer007]

Kohli is already ahead of Lloyd at home having won same no.of tests in 5 less matches played against better opposition (Remember no SL or SA in those days ) :

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...orderby=won;team=6;template=results;type=team

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...derby=start;team=4;template=results;type=team

the Away record is still early days to judge but again WI in the 70s and 80s did not have to deal with SA and SL and Aus , NZ of 80s was nowhere as strong a team as the current teams that Kohli plays against.

People will always glorify past no point arguing with stats..

 

[Proactive_]

Kohli is already ahead of Lloyd at home having won same no.of tests in 5 less matches played against better opposition (Remember no SL or SA in those days ) :

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...orderby=won;team=6;template=results;type=team

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...derby=start;team=4;template=results;type=team

the Away record is still early days to judge but again WI in the 70s and 80s did not have to deal with SA and SL and Aus , NZ of 80s was nowhere as strong a team as the current teams that Kohli plays against.

SL hasn't been a good team for quite some time now. Even Bangladesh drew against them.

7 out of the 8 wins for Kohli are against SL and WI.

Please don't commit cricketing blasphemy by comparing him with C. Lloyd for god's sake Goddamnit, and his home captaincy isn't any better than Dhoni who is considered a very average Test captain.

 

[Itachi]

Without fail was obviously as in that they beat every team home and away in that period. You guys seriously interpreted it as me saying they won each and every match and series?

Meh? Beating every team "WITHOUT FAIL" means WINNING EACH MATCH AND SERIES.

 

[Tusker]

SL hasn't been a good team for quite some time now. Even Bangladesh drew against them.

7 out of the 8 wins for Kohli are against SL and WI.

Aus after Greg, Ian, Walters, Lillee and Thommo were no different. Infact Lillee played only one or two tests in WI IIRC. NZ were one man show and India had one bowler.

Please don't commit cricketing blasphemy by comparing him with C. Lloyd for god's sake Goddamnit, and his home captaincy isn't any better than Dhoni who is considered a very average Test captain.

Ohhh yeah ... why dont you start arguing based on facts instead of hurling churlish comments and then we can see where things stand ?... But if you prefer the churlish route I can quite easily do the same to a more devastating effect.

So how many series did WI win vs Pak in the 80s at home in WI ?

 

[Tusker]

People will always glorify past no point arguing with stats..

exactly ... and they all predictably run away in a hurry when people start asking difficult questions.

 

[Proactive_]

Aus after Greg, Ian, Walters, Lillee and Thommo were no different. Infact Lillee played only one or two tests in WI IIRC. NZ were one man show and India had one bowler.

And as if India bashing the likes of Ish Sodhi, Moeen Ali and Adil Rashid is some sort of a great performance at home lol. The only team which came in with half decent spin stocks was Australia against whom Kohli presided over a 333 run loss in the first match itself

Ohhh yeah ... why dont you start arguing based on facts instead of hurling churlish comments and then we can see where things stand ?... But if you prefer the churlish route I can quite easily do the same to a more devastating effect.

So how many series did WI win vs Pak in the 80s at home in WI ?

WI won against Pak in 77 in WI and in Pakistan in 1980. Pakistan being competitive against WI reflects highly on their competence at that time rather than negatively on WI.

 

[Tusker]

And as if India bashing the likes of Ish Sodhi, Moeen Ali and Adil Rashid is some sort of a great performance at home lol. The only team which came in with half decent spin stocks was Australia against whom Kohli presided over a 333 run loss in the first match itself

Lloyd lost more matches at home than Kohli ... and Trent Boult, Southee and Ish Sodi form a far better bowling unit than anything NZ had in the 80s. Lets not even compare the Aussie or English fast bowlers from now to the 80s lol.

WI won against Pak in 77 in WI and in Pakistan in 1980. Pakistan being competitive against WI reflects highly on their competence at that time rather than negatively on WI.

And nobody being able to beat India at home somehow reflects poorly on Kohli ? The wonders of self loathing crab mentality never cease to amaze me )

 

[Proactive_]

Lloyd lost more matches at home than Kohli ... and Trent Boult, Southee and Ish Sodi form a far better bowling unit than anything NZ had in the 80s. Lets not even compare the Aussie or English fast bowlers from now to the 80s lol.

Hadlee and Chatfield duo is miles better than any attack NZ can offer today.

And nobody being able to beat India at home somehow reflects poorly on Kohli ? The wonders of self loathing crab mentality never cease to amaze me )

It doesn't. Kohli has just maintained the status quo that Dhoni created at home except the England 2012 blip which tbh Kohli pretty much matched against Australia last year. He hasn't done anything extraordinary in that regard. On the contrary he lost 2-1 against SA while Dhoni drew his first away Test series against SA against a much stronger team.

 

[Itachi]

Hadlee and Chatfield duo is miles better than any attack NZ can offer today.





It doesn't. Kohli has just maintained the status quo that Dhoni created at home except the England 2012 blip which tbh Kohli pretty much matched against Australia last year. He hasn't done anything extraordinary in that regard. On the contrary he lost 2-1 against SA while Dhoni drew his first away Test series against SA against a much stronger team.

the greater task is to maintain rather than initiate something.

You can make a girl fall for you easily. However, maintaining a loving relationship with her for years is a different ball game.

another example, Reaching #1 is (relatively) easy. Even pakistan did it. But maintaining that status what makes a great team.

 

[Tusker]

Hadlee and Chatfield duo is miles better than any attack NZ can offer today.

Only if you go by Nostlagia influenced stories of old era fanatics .... I urge you to watch Hadlee trundle away at break neck speeds of 120 KPH ... no bowler will threaten anyone today at those speeds especially in Asia.

It doesn't. Kohli has just maintained the status quo that Dhoni created at home except the England 2012 blip which tbh Kohli pretty much matched against Australia last year. He hasn't done anything extraordinary in that regard. On the contrary he lost 2-1 against SA while Dhoni drew his first away Test series against SA against a much stronger team.

A 2-1 Loss to England in 2012 under MSD has nothing to do with a 2-1 Win vs Aus under Kohli. However i can see how you are so dissappointed that Aus did not win that series in India ...

So Its Kohli's fault that he was preceeded by MSD and Lloyd was preceeded by an ordinary captain ? )

Likewise Lloyd did nothing special against a much lowly Indian team that relied very heavily on spinners in his first Test series.

 

[Sadevdesai]

...... that was because the India’s Test with WI was totally washed out in WI !!!!!

 

[Proactive_]

Only if you go by Nostlagia influenced stories of old era fanatics .... I urge you to watch Hadlee trundle away at break neck speeds of 120 KPH ... no bowler will threaten anyone today at those speeds especially in Asia.

Oh yeah I forgot I'm talking to a guy who thinks everything before the 2000s should be discarded for some odd reason. My bad. BTW, Philander bowls 125 in 2018 and he averages in the early 20s averaging 23 in UAE and 20 in India. Another one of your asinine theories debunked. Thank me later!

A 2-1 Loss to England in 2012 under MSD has nothing to do with a 2-1 Win vs Aus under Kohli. However i can see how you are so dissappointed that Aus did not win that series in India ...

So Its Kohli's fault that he was preceeded by MSD and Lloyd was preceeded by an ordinary captain ? )

Likewise Lloyd did nothing special against a much lowly Indian team that relied very heavily on spinners in his first Test series.

Come back to me when Kohli manages to win a Test series in Aus, Eng, NZ, something which Lloyd's team did on multiple occasions while Kohli's captaincy record outside Asia excluding WI reads

1W / 3L / 1D. Win % of a mammoth 20.

 

[Tusker]

Oh yeah I forgot I'm talking to a guy who thinks everything before the 2000s should be discarded for some odd reason. My bad. BTW, Philander bowls 125 in 2018 and he averages in the early 20s averaging 23 in UAE and 20 in India. Another one of your asinine theories debunked. Thank me later!

Played only 7 tests in Asia and avg 32 at 79 sr and zero 5fers and mostly tailender wkts. I will be surprised if he played any more series in Asia.

And BTW he bowls around 130ks.

So much for "Debunking"

Come back to me when Kohli manages to win a Test series in Aus, Eng, NZ, something which Lloyd's team did on multiple occasions while Kohli's captaincy record outside Asia excluding WI reads

1W / 3L / 1D. Win % of a mammoth 20.

Come back here when you find A series won by WI against strong opposition like current Aus and SA.

as it stands Kohli has a better home record against better opposition.

 

[Proactive_]

Played only 7 tests in Asia and avg 32 at 79 sr and zero 5fers and mostly tailender wkts. I will be surprised if he played any more series in Asia.

And BTW he bowls around 130ks.

So much for "Debunking"

Average of 32 is hardly disastrous for a pace bowler in the subcontinent. It isn't anywhere like Lord Ashwin's performances outside Asia.

Come back here when you find A series won by WI against strong opposition like current Aus and SA.

as it stands Kohli has a better home record against better opposition.

And spinners like Ish Sodhi, Moeen Ali, Adil Rashid, Imran Tahir and even Dean Elgar are such enormous match winning spinners that India tamed in the home season?

 

[Tusker]

Average of 32 is hardly disastrous for a pace bowler in the subcontinent. It isn't anywhere like Lord Ashwin's performances outside Asia.

Look at the strike rate and the no.of tailenders lol. This guy is not even the first choice bowler in Asian conditions. If the pitch is flat he "rests"

And spinners like Ish Sodhi, Moeen Ali, Adil Rashid, Imran Tahir and even Dean Elgar are such enormous match winning spinners that India tamed in the home season?

The same applies to WI teams also but current Aus / SA fast bowlers are exceptional with Lyon, Herath being excellent .

The only credible fast bowling outfit that toured WI was Pak.

 

[Proactive_]

Look at the strike rate and the no.of tailenders lol. This guy is not even the first choice bowler in Asian conditions. If the pitch is flat he "rests"

No different from Ashwin then, except the fact that his stats in Asia are still much better than Ashwin's outside Asia.

The same applies to WI teams also but current Aus / SA fast bowlers are exceptional with Lyon, Herath being excellent .

The only credible fast bowling outfit that toured WI was Pak.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...0;spanval1=span;template=results;type=bowling


12 non WI Fast bowlers averaging below 30 in the 80s. the top two being Non WI fast bowlers. Try again.

 

[shokz1408]

Lol, nothing is permanent in life. We really should cherish such moments. Don't think we'll see pakistan number 1 in tests for several years with misbah and yk gone. And, will take even longer to become 1st in odis, which I doubt will happen in my lifetime. We'll only really compete in fun t20 cricket where it's normal to be bowled out under 200 runs.

 

[Tusker]

No different from Ashwin then, except the fact that his stats in Asia are still much better than Ashwin's outside Asia.

Whats Ashwin got to do with a discusion on Pace comparison between Philander and Hadlee ? Goalpost shift incoming as usual ?

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...0;spanval1=span;template=results;type=bowling


12 non WI Fast bowlers averaging below 30 in the 80s. the top two being Non WI fast bowlers. Try again.

Ohh yeah ... why dont you show me some video clips of these said Fast bowlers bowling like Starc, Steyn, Rabada, Hazelwood , Cummins etc ? There is hardly any such thing except for Wasim and Waqar ... You can take the stats and shove them were the sun dont shine because there is no stat out there that captures the lethal effect these bowlers have. The moment Starc got the old ball in his hand everyone knew SAF were dead.

 

[TeymurBlake]

It will be quite some time to see Pakistan No.1 in Tests let alone ODI which will also not happen anytime soon. T20I is the format where Pakistan can challenge for No.1 but for that we need hitters not Hafeez or Shehzad

 

[Proactive_]

Whats Ashwin got to do with a discusion on Pace comparison between Philander and Hadlee ? Goalpost shift incoming as usual ?

So you don't rate Ashwin as a world class spinner based on his non Asia performances or do you? It's just to expose your double standards when a fast bowler with a bowling average of 32 in Asia and near 20 overall is not a world class bowler but a spinner who is tonked at around 45-50 outside Asia (exc. WI) somehow is lol.

Ohh yeah ... why dont you show me some video clips of these said Fast bowlers bowling like Starc, Steyn, Rabada, Hazelwood , Cummins etc ? There is hardly any such thing except for Wasim and Waqar ... You can take the stats and shove them were the sun dont shine because there is no stat out there that captures the lethal effect these bowlers have. The moment Starc got the old ball in his hand everyone knew SAF were dead.

So actual stats don't matter but Starc cleaning a bunch of tailenders somehow means something? Man, this is way too nonsensical even by your standards lol.

 

[Tusker]

So you don't rate Ashwin as a world class spinner based on his non Asia performances or do you? It's just to expose your double standards when a fast bowler with a bowling average of 32 in Asia and near 20 overall is not a world class bowler but a spinner who is tonked at around 45-50 outside Asia (exc. WI) somehow is lol.

You tell me ... arent you a big bhakt of yesteryear cricketers like Dennis Lillee who did nothing in Asia and WI ? ... arent you the one constantly ridiculing Indian players based on their Away performances ? Dont like it when your own meds come back at you ehhh ?

So actual stats don't matter but Starc cleaning a bunch of tailenders somehow means something? Man, this is way too nonsensical even by your standards lol.

go ahead tell us how Wasim Akram was not much better than Kapil and that he is way inferior to Hadlee which is what your great stats that you posted in Post#215 imply

 

[Proactive_]

You tell me ... arent you a big bhakt of yesteryear cricketers like Dennis Lillee who did nothing in Asia and WI ? ... arent you the one constantly ridiculing Indian players based on their Away performances ? Dont like it when your own meds come back at you ehhh ?

I never claimed Dennis Lillee to be anything. It's you who is on this tirade of discrediting everything that happened before the 90s for some odd reason, as if standards suddenly shot up from the time you wanted them to .

go ahead tell us how Wasim Akram was not much better than Kapil and that he is way inferior to Hadlee which is what your great stats that you posted in Post#215 imply

The stats are of the 80s. Duh. Every one knows Wasim's peak decade was the 90s. The chart only illustrates that Wasim's performances even in the 80s were good enough to warrant him a status of a pretty good fast bowler. But since it refutes your nonsensical argument that there were no great fast bowlers except the WI in the 80s.. you now have to try to deviate as much from the point as you can to save face. Typical.

 

[dravidthewall]

Congrates pakistan

 

[Itachi]

Congratulations.

 

[Tusker]

I never claimed Dennis Lillee to be anything. It's you who is on this tirade of discrediting everything that happened before the 90s for some odd reason, as if standards suddenly shot up from the time you wanted them to .

all backed by facts . If you are soo convinced that standards were the same then stand up and debate like a grown up instead of making juvenile statements getting bent out of shape

And you dont go around running down Indian players ? "India can do without Kohli in Tests"

The stats are of the 80s. Duh. Every one knows Wasim's peak decade was the 90s. The chart only illustrates that Wasim's performances even in the 80s were good enough to warrant him a status of a pretty good fast bowler. But since it refutes your nonsensical argument that there were no great fast bowlers except the WI in the 80s.. you now have to try to deviate as much from the point as you can to save face. Typical.

I'am aware the stats are for 80s and it is laughable to suggest that Wasim was just as good as Kapil Alderman etc even in the 80s.

 

[Tusker]

I never claimed Dennis Lillee to be anything.

More lies:

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...the-decade-of-the-1970s&p=9414059#post9414059

 

[Proactive_]

all backed by facts . If you are soo convinced that standards were the same then stand up and debate like a grown up instead of making juvenile statements getting bent out of shape

So by your logic, when standards further increase 20-30 years from now and when every club cricketer would be as good a batsman as Tendulkar, would you be fine with me discrediting Tendulkar's entire career?

NEWSFLASH: The world is evolving and so are sports. It isn't like all the evolving has suddenly stopped from the time you started rating cricket and we've reached the ultimate zenith of cricketing standards that there can be. There's a great chance that 50 years from now on every Ranji batsman but be a better batsman than the likes of Tendulkar and Dravid. Doesn't mean that you discredit the players and teams of the eras gone by who set the benchmark for future teams.

And you dont go around running down Indian players ? "India can do without Kohli in Tests"

They have. Refer to Dharamsala 2017. It's the Kohli-Shastri duo that has now ensured that NO ONE except Kohli can ever be assured of their place in the side even if they perform. Apply the same standards to Kohli and he would have been dropped at least 3-4 times by now.

I'am aware the stats are for 80s and it is laughable to suggest that Wasim was just as good as Kapil Alderman etc even in the 80s.

Then you're underselling Kapil and Alderman at their peak as compared to a young Wasim Akram in his early 20s. Your problem, not mine.

 

[Proactive_]

More lies:

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...the-decade-of-the-1970s&p=9414059#post9414059

That post was regarding the top cricketers of the 70s.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...;spanval1=span;template=results;type=allround

Lillee averaged 21 away with Tests in NZ, Eng and 1 Test in WI. His further failures came in the 80s on the tour to Pakistan and SL which went against him rating as one of the undisputed GOAT bowlers.

But obviously you'll sell it like I called Lillee the best fast bowler of all time or something . Clutching at straws like only you can do.

 

[Tusker]

That post was regarding the top cricketers of the 70s.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...;spanval1=span;template=results;type=allround

Lillee averaged 21 away with Tests in NZ, Eng and 1 Test in WI. His further failures came in the 80s on the tour to Pakistan and SL which went against him rating as one of the undisputed GOAT bowlers.

But obviously you'll sell it like I called Lillee the best fast bowler of all time or something . Clutching at straws like only you can do.

in Post#221 you said : "I never Claimed Lille to be anything" ... unless you want to tell us how being the top cricketer of the 70s still amounts to nothing I suggest you acknowledge the mistake and move on.

But knowing you ahead lies more drama more twisting more Goal post shifts and generally more bakwas incoming

 

[Proactive_]

in Post#221 you said : "I never Claimed Lille to be anything" ... unless you want to tell us how being the top cricketer of the 70s still amounts to nothing I suggest you acknowledge the mistake and move on.

But knowing you ahead lies more drama more twisting more Goal post shifts and generally more bakwas incoming

I never claimed Lillee to be "anything" related to GOAT status which obviously was something you were insinuating. You picked up a line from the 70s thread and I substantiated on it. Nice try though. Come back when you have better arguments as your last pichkari shot went phuss as well

 

[Tusker]

So by your logic, when standards further increase 20-30 years from now and when every club cricketer would be as good a batsman as Tendulkar, would you be fine with me discrediting Tendulkar's entire career?

Why dont you first show me where the discrediting happened ? My posts are generally in response to the ignorant posts from the old Era fanatics cooing about how everything was hunky dory back in the day and the todays cricketers are useless.

infact there is a thread that I posted just earlier today : http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...-9-13-2018-Match-Thread&p=9651587#post9651587

Check post#88 onwards.

NEWSFLASH: The world is evolving and so are sports. It isn't like all the evolving has suddenly stopped from the time you started rating cricket and we've reached the ultimate zenith of cricketing standards that there can be. There's a great chance that 50 years from now on every Ranji batsman but be a better batsman than the likes of Tendulkar and Dravid. Doesn't mean that you discredit the players and teams of the eras gone by who set the benchmark for future teams.

So from this I take it that you realize the futility in comparing avgs from 35 yrs ago to today ?

They have. Refer to Dharamsala 2017. It's the Kohli-Shastri duo that has now ensured that NO ONE except Kohli can ever be assured of their place in the side even if they perform. Apply the same standards to Kohli and he would have been dropped at least 3-4 times by now.

There you go again arriving at conclusions based on one or two tests ... who can ever argue with that )

Then you're underselling Kapil and Alderman at their peak as compared to a young Wasim Akram in his early 20s. Your problem, not mine.

The problem here is your shallow understanding of TestCricket ... Exhibit A is quoted just above.

 

[Proactive_]

Why dont you first show me where the discrediting happened ? My posts are generally in response to the ignorant posts from the old Era fanatics cooing about how everything was hunky dory back in the day and the todays cricketers are useless.

infact there is a thread that I posted just earlier today : http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...-9-13-2018-Match-Thread&p=9651587#post9651587

Check post#88 onwards.

LOL just a few posts back you were claiming that Hadlee couldn't have been threatening in this day and age because he bowled "120"..

Only if you go by Nostlagia influenced stories of old era fanatics .... I urge you to watch Hadlee trundle away at break neck speeds of 120 KPH ... no bowler will threaten anyone today at those speeds especially in Asia.
Read more at http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...nkings!-August-2016/page3#T3EgdixHjoDsgOwP.99

when just yesterday Vernon Philander had figures of 18-7-25-2 bowling 120-125. Don't even try to play that card that you don't actually discredit the cricket of the bygone eras especially before the 90s. It's your biggest claim to fame on this forum .

So from this I take it that you realize the futility in comparing avgs from 35 yrs ago to today ?

In theory, it shouldn't be. Since the batting and bowling standards SHOULD improve proportionately leading to similar batting and bowling averages of the top players in every era. But since there are external factors like the drastic changes in the quality of pitches, improvement in protective gear, size of bats etc etc.. the averages obviously can't be compared in a straight forward manner.

There you go again arriving at conclusions based on one or two tests ... who can ever argue with that )

Well obviously since Kohli was and would never be dropped for poor performance which.. following his and Shastri's standards he should have been on multiple occasions, we won't get a large sample size regarding that. But the Dharamsala Test more than showed that India can do pretty well without Kohli as well in the batting and especially the captaincy department

The problem here is your shallow understanding of TestCricket ... Exhibit A is quoted just above.

0/10 response. Try harder.

 

[Tusker]

LOL just a few posts back you were claiming that Hadlee couldn't have been threatening in this day and age because he bowled "120"..

when just yesterday Vernon Philander had figures of 18-7-25-2 bowling 120-125. Don't even try to play that card that you don't actually discredit the cricket of the bygone eras especially before the 90s. It's your biggest claim to fame on this forum .

Thats a statement of fact. Doesnt mean Hadlee wasnt a great of his time. The same will apply to Bradman too. But Feel free to show me a bowler trundling in at 120Ks and picking wkts for fun in India in this ERA like how Hadlee did in India ... it just aint happening.

In theory, it shouldn't be. Since the batting and bowling standards SHOULD improve proportionately leading to similar batting and bowling averages of the top players in every era. But since there are external factors like the drastic changes in the quality of pitches, improvement in protective gear, size of bats etc etc.. the averages obviously can't be compared in a straight forward manner.

Exactly but I will add that it usually takes some time for one skill to catch up to the other skill. For example in the 70s and 80s fast bowling standards went ahead and the batsmen took a while to adjust now the batsmanship is at a completely different level and bowlers are trying to catch up ... this is why stats based comparisons are meaningless for todays players. Watching a Starc or a Johnson you just know these guys would have been just as successful if not more in older ERA's.

Well obviously since Kohli was and would never be dropped for poor performance which.. following his and Shastri's standards he should have been on multiple occasions, we won't get a large sample size regarding that. But the Dharamsala Test more than showed that India can do pretty well without Kohli as well in the batting and especially the captaincy department

How does someone performing poorly get to avg in the mid 50s over 60+ Tests with 21 Hundreds and 6 double hundreds ?

0/10 response. Try harder.

Peurile

 

[Tusker]

I never claimed Lillee to be "anything" related to GOAT status which obviously was something you were insinuating.

here is what I was exactly asking :

" arent you a big bhakt of yesteryear cricketers like Dennis Lillee who did nothing in Asia and WI ? ."

Notice no reference or insinuation to GOAT.

As I had accurately predicted you will twist turn and try to shift goal posts in order to save face ....

 

[Proactive_]

Thats a statement of fact. Doesnt mean Hadlee wasnt a great of his time. The same will apply to Bradman too. But Feel free to show me a bowler trundling in at 120Ks and picking wkts for fun in India in this ERA like how Hadlee did in India ... it just aint happening.

Not a fact. A 34 year old McGrath was pretty much 125-130 territory in 2004 and he got 14 wickets at 25.42 in that series. You're being WAY too unfair to Hadlee here.

Exactly but I will add that it usually takes some time for one skill to catch up to the other skill. For example in the 70s and 80s fast bowling standards went ahead and the batsmen took a while to adjust now the batsmanship is at a completely different level and bowlers are trying to catch up ... this is why stats based comparisons are meaningless for todays players. Watching a Starc or a Johnson you just know these guys would have been just as successful if not more in older ERA's.

Bowlers are not trying to catch up, it's that today's protective standards have took away an entire dimension of batsmanship altogether i.e the fear of being injured from fast bowling. Not saying that injuries can't and won't happen even in today's day and age but it would be pretty wrong to think that the batsman of the 70s and 80s would have hooked and pulled with the same assurance as they do now. There are many external factors at play here as well. It's not a linear relationship on a graph type of a scenario.

How does someone performing poorly get to avg in the mid 50s over 60+ Tests with 21 Hundreds and 6 double hundreds ?

Because as per the Kohli and Shastri protocol of team selections, even if you're performing well.. you aren't guaranteed a place in the side.. and it leads to a situation where virtually no one except Kohli can get a decent run in the team and almost everyone is placing for their place when they know they can be dropped on the basis of 2-3 Tests. Based on that Kohli should have been the first one to be dropped after the WI 2011 series, England 2014 series and Australia 2017 series.

 

[Proactive_]

here is what I was exactly asking :

" arent you a big bhakt of yesteryear cricketers like Dennis Lillee who did nothing in Asia and WI ? ."

Notice no reference or insinuation to GOAT.

As I had accurately predicted you will twist turn and try to shift goal posts in order to save face ....

"big bhakt", something which you can't prove. Pot meet kettle.

 

[Tusker]

Not a fact. A 34 year old McGrath was pretty much 125-130 territory in 2004 and he got 14 wickets at 25.42 in that series. You're being WAY too unfair to Hadlee here.

wrong ... he was mostly bowling above 130K's

Bowlers are not trying to catch up, it's that today's protective standards have took away an entire dimension of batsmanship altogether i.e the fear of being injured from fast bowling. Not saying that injuries can't and won't happen even in today's day and age but it would be pretty wrong to think that the batsman of the 70s and 80s would have hooked and pulled with the same assurance as they do now. There are many external factors at play here as well. It's not a linear relationship on a graph type of a scenario.

You observe the footwork of todays batsmen versus older era players ... there is a lot of difference. Also different is the attitudes. There is no more respect for big name bowlers nor is the need to tuk-tuk. Then the fitness and professionalism. Sure helmets help but helmets were there in the 80s too. This is why a bowling avg of 30 today is not the same 30 avg

Because as per the Kohli and Shastri protocol of team selections, even if you're performing well.. you aren't guaranteed a place in the side.. and it leads to a situation where virtually no one except Kohli can get a decent run in the team and almost everyone is placing for their place when they know they can be dropped on the basis of 2-3 Tests. Based on that Kohli should have been the first one to be dropped after the WI 2011 series, England 2014 series and Australia 2017 series.

I find it absolutely hilarious that you wanted Kohli dropped after Aus 2017 series when in the Previous Series he had pillaged runs against Eng and NZ and then in the next Test vs BD he made a double hundred. What kind of nonsense is this ?

Do this ... go find ONE sane person who will agree with you that India can do away with Kohli. ONE sane person.

 

[Proactive_]

wrong ... he was mostly bowling above 130K's

Hardly. Maybe the odd effort ball touching 135 at best.

You observe the footwork of todays batsmen versus older era players ... there is a lot of difference. Also different is the attitudes. There is no more respect for big name bowlers nor is the need to tuk-tuk. Then the fitness and professionalism. Sure helmets help but helmets were there in the 80s too. This is why a bowling avg of 30 today is not the same 30 avg

So the likes of Viv Richards, Doug Walters, Zaheer Abbas, K. Srikkanth, Gordon Greenidge, I.Botham, Kapil Dev were tuk tuk batsmen? And that there are zero tuk tuk batsmen in 2018? Funny because most great test batters are still striking in the 50s, not much higher than in the 80s.

I find it absolutely hilarious that you wanted Kohli dropped after Aus 2017 series when in the Previous Series he had pillaged runs against Eng and NZ and then in the next Test vs BD he made a double hundred. What kind of nonsense is this ?

Do this ... go find ONE sane person who will agree with you that India can do away with Kohli. ONE sane person.

Read the reply again. I didn't want him dropped. I said that IF Kohli and Shastri's selection policies were applied to himself, he would have been dropped on multiple occasions and would have played many more games with the fear of being dropped, something he has instilled in the mind of the players of his team.

 

[Tusker]

"big bhakt", something which you can't prove. Pot meet kettle.

Already done ... now that you accept that I never mentioned GOAT. So unless you rate Cricketers as the best of an entire decade and yet these are the same people who claimed to be "anything" ... it is pretty clear that you have lost it and are arguing for the sake of saving face. But dont stop keep going ... dig harder deeper wider .... mucho fun

 

[Tusker]

Hardly. Maybe the odd effort ball touching 135 at best.

Go watch the 2004 Series highlights on YT and see for yourselves and see how many wkts that were in the 120K :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRSicFyQgvM&t
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3u8zvYwIqBk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wK-Cv7xKjoQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaFTqa3CxGI

 

[Proactive_]

Already done ... now that you accept that I never mentioned GOAT. So unless you rate Cricketers as the best of an entire decade and yet these are the same people who claimed to be "anything" ... it is pretty clear that you have lost it and are arguing for the sake of saving face. But dont stop keep going ... dig harder deeper wider .... mucho fun

Why don't you prove how I'm a "big bhakt" first. Then we can discuss cricket in the 70s something which you're way too keen to extrapolate to something else.