Converting Line of Control into an international border - Discussion

[Ocelot]

As Bill Clinton said in his very moving speech back in 2000 that in this modern era borders cannot be redrawn with blood, I think India and Pakistan should seriously look into converting the LoC into IB.

Pakistan cannot militarily take Indian Kashmir; it simply doesn’t have the weight of numbers and economic strength to do so. If India thinks it can take Pakistani Kashmir then it should drop such thoughts, millions of Pakistanis have visited the Northern Areas and grew an attachment to it, in case of war everyone would come out to fight. Hypothetically if India takes Pakistani Kashmir then it would face a problem on a bigger scale then what it faces in the valley. The people of Gilgit Baltistan are very fierce and won’t take any Indian yoke lightly.

Benefits for Pakistan

I think the main benefit for Pakistan would be a reduction of paranoia & obsession in the India regarding it. India being a bigger country is trying to hurt Pakistan in a million of ways and exploiting its internal fissures. With the Kashmir issue out of picture, the threat for Pakistan would decrease, both from and eastern and western borders, as well from anti-Pak global lobbies. Pakistan can decrease its defense spending and divert the resources towards economic development.

Benefits for India

The local Kashmiri population who scream independence would just shut up and stop demanding that and go on with their lives in a normal fashion. There would be fewer headaches for the Indian army. There’s also a fear in India that if it gives independence to Kashmir then more states would come forward to demand secession from the Indian union.

So how can we move forward?

 

[good guy]

first thing is nether india and pakistan cannot leave Kashmir because if leave it then Indus water treaty will be collapsed

that because there will be 3 countries[ iok ind pak] for iwt which means three countries have to reduce it share of water and i do not thing any country will reduce of his share of water especially with rising population

 

[Ocelot]

first thing is nether india and pakistan cannot leave Kashmir because if leave it then Indus water treaty will be collapsed

that because there will be 3 countries[ iok ind pak] for iwt which means three countries have to reduce it share of water and i do not thing any country will reduce of his share of water especially with rising population

There won't be any three countries, only two. India already considers its part of Kashmir as its state, Pakistan should also constitutionally make GB & AJK as its provinces.

 

[Madplayer]

Look at the arrogance of yet another indian. Deciding everything himself lol

The fate of Kashmir will be decided by Kashmiris themselves. The actual owners of the land. Not some Indians sitting in Nagpur.

 

[PakLFC]

Won't work because the Kashmiris hate India with venom! They are the only people who can decide, no one else. They will never agree to join India so it's a choice between complete freedom or merging with Pak. Complete freedom means India will keep harnessing them, common sense says a merger with Pakistan is the only solution.

 

[good guy]

Look at the arrogance of yet another indian. Deciding everything himself lol

The fate of Kashmir will be decided by Kashmiris themselves. The actual owners of the land. Not some Indians sitting in Nagpur.

first of all i am not rss agent or nationalist person

second thing let say so your Kashmir control the water rights to Indus water treaty
and say that we will not give to water to north india that means 500 hundred million people
will die for lack of water

 

[Madplayer]

first of all i am not rss agent or nationalist person

second thing let say so your Kashmir control the water rights to Indus water treaty
and say that we will not give to water to north india that means 500 hundred million people
will die for lack of water

So India wants to keep killing and torturing Kashmiris because Kashmir can control the rivers? What kind of rubbish logic is that? Its Kashmir's water and Kashmiris have the right to get compensation for the use of its waters from any country who uses it.

Why doesnt India invade China and take over the control of parts of Brahmaputra which flow from there? China can also stop Brahmaputra and deprive millions of Indians from having access to water.

 

[PakLFC]

So India wants to keep killing and torturing Kashmiris because Kashmir can control the rivers? What kind of rubbish logic is that? Its Kashmir's water and Kashmiris have the right to get compensation for the use of its waters from any country who uses it.

Why doesnt India invade China and take over the control of parts of Brahmaputra which flow from there? China can also stop Brahmaputra and deprive millions of Indians from having access to water.

India can't even dream of such a thing!!)) Not only will China stop water but give them a worse battering then 1962!!

 

[good guy]

India can't even dream of such a thing!!)) Not only will China stop water but give them a worse battering then 1962!!

you can laugh man but if ind -pak war happen over Kashmir then both of the countries can forget
about Kashmir because will we use nuclear weapons this time that means both of the countries will be destroyed for million of years

btw you laugh about war sick man

 

[good guy]

So India wants to keep killing and torturing Kashmiris because Kashmir can control the rivers? What kind of rubbish logic is that? Its Kashmir's water and Kashmiris have the right to get compensation for the use of its waters from any country who uses it.

Why doesnt India invade China and take over the control of parts of Brahmaputra which flow from there? China can also stop Brahmaputra and deprive millions of Indians from having access to water.

so you thinking that i want occupation of kashmir because of resources then you wrong i do not
supported any occupation of any country

but i want say Kashmir get independence than Indian people will elect a guy who will take back Kashmir
because people of india very nationalist people who do not want give single piece of land to anyone

 

[PakLFC]

you can laugh man but if ind -pak war happen over Kashmir then both of the countries can forget
about Kashmir because will we use nuclear weapons this time that means both of the countries will be destroyed for million of years

btw you laugh about war sick man

Well India is not a peace loving country making trouble for all it's neighbours which is why Pak-China gang up against you. In any Indo-Pak war if one uses nukes then so will the other so yes there will be mutual destruction. That is why it is better to let Kashmiris decide their future if you want to eventually avoid a doomsday scenario. India only understands aggression.

 

[Hitman]

Funny some people still believe India will let go off Kashmir and it'll either get independence or merge with Pakistan. Forget patriotism for a moment, use your brains and tell me do you really think it will happen?

Bolne me to kuch bhi bola jaa sakta hain, even Zaid Hamid believes Pakistan will soon capture India and Bangladesh and the entire region will be named 'Greater Pakistan'. One can fantasize as much much as he/she wants. It about being practical and being real.

 

[PakLFC]

Funny some people still believe India will let go off Kashmir and it'll either get independence or merge with Pakistan. Forget patriotism for a moment, use your brains and tell me do you really think it will happen?

Bolne me to kuch bhi bola jaa sakta hain, even Zaid Hamid believes Pakistan will soon capture India and Bangladesh and the entire region will be named 'Greater Pakistan'. One can fantasize as much much as he/she wants. It about being practical and being real.

Zaid is not always right neither is he always wrong. His belief of Ghazwa-e-Hind is a Islamic prophecy that many Muslim's accept where as others reject. India will never let go of Kashmir but it can be forced to give in. In the early 1940's your ancestors also said we will never let Pakistan be formed yet it was against all odds. Same can be said about the saffron Hindu nutcases who dream of an Akhand Bharat covering Pakistan, Afghanistan, Bangladesh SriLanka, Middle East and Indonesia) A united Muslim army can easily capture Kashmir, that is what the Ghazwa-e-Hind prophecy says. It says that Pakistan will be supported by many Muslim armies in it's final battle with India, even Gandhi predicted a final Indo-Pak battle.

 

[good guy]

Well India is not a peace loving country

so please can you tell who is peaceful country in this world except Scandinavian countries
USA or Russia or UK or Pakistan

 

[PakLFC]

Well India is not a peace loving country

so please can you tell who is peaceful country in this world except Scandinavian countries
USA or Russia or UK or Pakistan

Most of the west is peaceful. The question should be why does India have so many insurgencies? Why is India always fighting with almost every neighbour? This is because it is a trouble maker trying to force itself on others.

 

[good guy]

Zaid is not always right neither is he always wrong. His belief of Ghazwa-e-Hind is a Islamic prophecy that many Muslim's accept where as others reject. India will never let go of Kashmir but it can be forced to give in. In the early 1940's your ancestors also said we will never let Pakistan be formed yet it was against all odds. Same can be said about the saffron Hindu nutcases who dream of an Akhand Bharat covering Pakistan, Afghanistan, Bangladesh SriLanka, Middle East and Indonesia) A united Muslim army can easily capture Kashmir, that is what the Ghazwa-e-Hind prophecy says. It says that Pakistan will be supported by many Muslim armies in it's final battle with India, even Gandhi predicted a final Indo-Pak battle.

A united Muslim army can easily capture Kashmir,are you kidding me

a united Muslim army still have not liberated Palestine till today you thinking they will fight india for
Kashmir

 

[Test champion]

India can't even dream of such a thing!!)) Not only will China stop water but give them a worse battering then 1962!!

stop being "chamchey" of china,its not the same india as was back those year .whole world seen china threat last year on doklam standoff how they dragged back ???.

 

[PakLFC]

A united Muslim army can easily capture Kashmir,are you kidding me

a united Muslim army still have not liberated Palestine till today you thinking they will fight india for
Kashmir

There is no united Muslim army at the moment fighting for Palestine or Kashmir. No army is fighting for the Palestinians at all, not even the Arab's never mind Pak,Turks, Iranians etc. India can't even defeat Pak in a decisive war for fear of mutual destruction for goodness sake.

 

[good guy]

Most of the west is peaceful. The question should be why does India have so many insurgencies? Why is India always fighting with almost every neighbour? This is because it is a trouble maker trying to force itself on others.

Most of the west is peaceful
really USA and UK invaded iraq for oil

Russia who butchered Chechen two times

 

[Hitman]

Zaid is not always right neither is he always wrong. His belief of Ghazwa-e-Hind is a Islamic prophecy that many Muslim's accept where as others reject. India will never let go of Kashmir but it can be forced to give in. In the early 1940's your ancestors also said we will never let Pakistan be formed yet it was against all odds. Same can be said about the saffron Hindu nutcases who dream of an Akhand Bharat covering Pakistan, Afghanistan, Bangladesh SriLanka, Middle East and Indonesia) A united Muslim army can easily capture Kashmir, that is what the Ghazwa-e-Hind prophecy says. It says that Pakistan will be supported by many Muslim armies in it's final battle with India, even Gandhi predicted a final Indo-Pak battle.

Do you think those dreaming of Akhanda Bharat aren't delusional? And how exactly can India be forced to give up Kashmir? A united Muslim army can easily capture Kashmir? Maybe. But like I said, kehne ko to kuch bhi kaha jaa sakta hain. So the entire Middle East bar Israel will suddenly team up with Pakistan in order to snatch Kashmir away from India? You can even say that India will be forced to let go off Kashmir if all the other countries team up together against India.

But what are the chances of it happening? You know it, just like the rest of the world does. If people want to be deliberately delusional and keep themselves happy in a fantasy world, fine.

 

[PakLFC]

stop being "chamchey" of china,its not the same india as was back those year .whole world seen china threat last year on doklam standoff how they dragged back ???.

Yeah just like you are the ponga's of Israel and the UN giving Netanyahu hugs and all. We will side with China coz they have always supported us. The dragon will swallow you up even today. If your army has improved then there's has a much then yours since 1962. You backed off recently not them.

 

[Hitman]

And the muslim countries don't even care to stand up for Palestine apart from some lip service these days. And every time they have tried to do so in the past, Israel has made them bite the dust. Remember the Six Day War when three Muslim nation had to surrender in front of tiny Israel? Further, instead of destroying Israel they rather lost huge areas of land to Israel.

And those countries will care about Kashmir and wedge war against India )

 

[PakLFC]

Do you think those dreaming of Akhanda Bharat aren't delusional? And how exactly can India be forced to give up Kashmir? A united Muslim army can easily capture Kashmir? Maybe. But like I said, kehne ko to kuch bhi kaha jaa sakta hain. So the entire Middle East bar Israel will suddenly team up with Pakistan in order to snatch Kashmir away from India? You can even say that India will be forced to let go off Kashmir if all the other countries team up together against India.

But what are the chances of it happening? You know it, just like the rest of the world does. If people want to be deliberately delusional and keep themselves happy in a fantasy world, fine.

Of course they are delusional with their silly fantasy. By a massive civil war in India for starters ot it being attacked by Muslim's inside and out! Not the entire Middle East but some countries are mentioned will side with Pak. It also speaks of a massive civil war in India that will lead up to it, yes I believe in it. There is no reason for non-Muslim's to take part in this war at all. Of course as a non-Muslim you will deny it not that it matters to a Muslim what you think. If the Prophet of Allah(saw) said it then that is good enough for me. What starts off as a Indo-Pak war will turn in to a religious war, the chances of it happening are as great as another Indo-Pak war.

 

[Test champion]

Yeah just like you are the ponga's of Israel and the UN giving Netanyahu hugs and all. We will side with China coz they have always supported us. The dragon will swallow you up even today. If your army has improved then there's has a much then yours since 1962. You backed off recently not them.

our realtion with all the counrty on behalf of self intrest not like some country who alway bagging with other. india buy weapons from whoever country we give then dollor. now China dn't even think mess with India only some chamchey can think of that .they know very well power of india.

 

[Pakistanian]

Hell no

 

[PakLFC]

And the muslim countries don't even care to stand up for Palestine apart from some lip service these days. And every time they have tried to do so in the past, Israel has made them bite the dust. Remember the Six Day War when three Muslim nation had to surrender in front of tiny Israel? Further, instead of destroying Israel they rather lost huge areas of land to Israel.

And those countries will care about Kashmir and wedge war against India )

Of course there is no Muslim army at this moment to stand up for the Palestinians but there will be for them and the Kashmiris. Israel is to strong for them then the Arab's have sold out themselves as well however nothing is forever. I agree that the Arab's on their own are nothing but Pak, Iran and Turkey to name a few know how to fight. They will fight with Pak when Muslim interests become one.

 

[good guy]

Of course there is no Muslim army at this moment to stand up for the Palestinians but there will be for them and the Kashmiris. Israel is to strong for them then the Arab's have sold out themselves as well however nothing is forever. I agree that the Arab's on their own are nothing but Pak, Iran and Turkey to name a few know how to fight. They will fight with Pak when Muslim interests become one.

you say iran and turkey They will fight with Pak when Muslim interests become one
i don't think so because iran is fighting proxy war with Saudi Arabia in Yemen
and turkey is fighting in Syria Kurds areas

 

[Hitman]

No! You don't understand that Congo is not Muslim. I said Islamic prophecy about a Muslim army. We are not stopping you from forming an Hindu army.

Any Hindu with a proper working brain and who is not delusional won't think along those lines. Unfortunately there are quite a few of those types here in our country as well i.e delusional.

P.S. I'm not a Hindu.

 

[PakLFC]

first of all i am atheist that do not believe these prophecy

and your prophecy remind of all those Kashmiris who are say Kashmir we be free anyday since my childhood

Remember how long it took India to be free from the Mughals and Brits. Centuries! You have only been free as long as we have.

 

[good guy]

The Ghazwa-e-Hind prophecy is not only Zaid Hamidsaying it. Many great Islamic scholars like Dr Israr Ahmed have also foretold it. Such is your obsession with Zaid Hamid you Indian people link everything with him.

dr Israr Ahmed also say in 1995
The process of the revival of Islam in different parts of the world is real. A final showdown between the Muslim world and the non-Muslim world, which has been captured by the Jews, would soon take place. The Gulf War was just a rehearsal for the coming conflict." He appealed to the Muslims of the world, including those in the US, to prepare themselves for the coming conflict
can you tell what Muslims have done since after that

 

[the Great Khan]

dr Israr Ahmed also say in 1995
The process of the revival of Islam in different parts of the world is real. A final showdown between the Muslim world and the non-Muslim world, which has been captured by the Jews, would soon take place. The Gulf War was just a rehearsal for the coming conflict." He appealed to the Muslims of the world, including those in the US, to prepare themselves for the coming conflict
can you tell what Muslims have done since after that

He was referring to end time prophecies so please keep this in context.

Moving onto the border issue. We should look to create a soft border like northern ireland and the republic of ireland have. That would be the best way to solve the problem before moving onto a referendum. Before you can do that we need to sign a peace treaty between India and Pakistan and finally address the atrocities of partition once and for all. Once we have agreed to lower the pressure within our rivalry and stick to an economic rivalry we can move ahead..

 

[OoparCut]

He was referring to end time prophecies so please keep this in context.

Moving onto the border issue. We should look to create a soft border like northern ireland and the republic of ireland have. That would be the best way to solve the problem before moving onto a referendum. Before you can do that we need to sign a peace treaty between India and Pakistan and finally address the atrocities of partition once and for all. Once we have agreed to lower the pressure within our rivalry and stick to an economic rivalry we can move ahead..

I think Soft border is a must-have, since the Kashmiris are being divided by the LOC - but the soft border can only happen once a lasting permanent deal is in place for India-Pakistan.

Like Manmohan Singh, I also dream of a day where one can have breakfast in Delhi, Lunch in Lahore and dinner in Kabul. No reason for our countries and people to fight unnecessarily and waste blood and treasure.

 

[PakLFC]

dr Israr Ahmed also say in 1995
The process of the revival of Islam in different parts of the world is real. A final showdown between the Muslim world and the non-Muslim world, which has been captured by the Jews, would soon take place. The Gulf War was just a rehearsal for the coming conflict." He appealed to the Muslims of the world, including those in the US, to prepare themselves for the coming conflict
can you tell what Muslims have done since after that

1995 is not that far back. Not all prophecy is good which is something you fail to realise. Many scholars like Dr Israr also foretold what will happen in Syria years back, it's happening today. I said some prophecies I believe in if the Prophet(saw) also foretold them like he did the Ghazwa-e-Hind. There are many that scholars say that can not be traced to the Prophet(saw). I agree that there will be a final wars with the Zionists that is Israel. There is no doubt about this as well. Things take years to change, we are at the Syria stage at this moment.

 

[good guy]

1995 is not that far back. Not all prophecy is good which is something you fail to realise. Many scholars like Dr Israr also foretold what will happen in Syria years back, it's happening today. I said some prophecies I believe in if the Prophet(saw) also foretold them like he did the Ghazwa-e-Hind. There are many that scholars say that can not be traced to the Prophet(saw). I agree that there will be a final wars with the Zionists that is Israel. There is no doubt about this as well. Things take years to change, we are at the Syria stage at this moment.

do you even know how Syria civil war came

the reasons are massive drought and highest food price in food price index in 2011 the year Syria civil war came

also oil production decline for many years and finally foreign intervention of armed the rebels against Assad

 

[rhony]

Ghazwa-e-Hind already happened when Moghuls invaded the greater India. The British put a kaibosh on it and that's another discussion. What unity is everyone talking about? I am of Asian descent and have been in Asia, UAE and the west. The Arabs look down on Pakistanis, Indians and Pakistanis, Indians look down upon Bangladeshis. Everybody cares a *** for African muslims. Hindus have their own issues with a gazillion castes and they evn win elections based on that. Christians have had a similar issue in the past but the economic development in the west means they don't care about it as much.

The subcontinent has lost out on the industrial revolution with their massive population and illeteracy. They didn't learn their lessons from Japan or South Korea. Atleast now, they should learn from Chine where religion is not a big deal. Nuclear powers can't defeat each other. The wars in the modern age are based on economy. India has already hurt Pakistan in that regard and will continue to do so.

Kashmir issue will never be solved because of Indus waters. It wasn't violent and wasn't even a big deal until 80s. The violence will continue and generations of Kashmiris will be victims on both sides with absolutely no resolution. The world order doesn't care about Kashmir anymore. There won't be any serious pressure from Pakistan on plebiscite because of CPEC.

I have seen marked improvement in India albeit with millions in poverty in the last decade. I've seen that only in pockets in Pakistan.

 

[rhony]

I will just give you one example that I have experienced myself. We have a chain of grocery stores in greater chicago area. Until two years ago, our basmati rice and spices were from both Pakistan and India. We get them from a local distributor here who's a Pakistani by the way. In the last 2 years, it has changed drastically. We only get Indian stuff these days to sell. He told me once that his profits are more with Indian made stuff and he changed his entire business model. The Indians are heavily subsidizing their exports to annihiliate the competetion just like CHina is doing on electronics and steel.

 

[Napa]

I will just give you one example that I have experienced myself. We have a chain of grocery stores in greater chicago area. Until two years ago, our basmati rice and spices were from both Pakistan and India. We get them from a local distributor here who's a Pakistani by the way. In the last 2 years, it has changed drastically. We only get Indian stuff these days to sell. He told me once that his profits are more with Indian made stuff and he changed his entire business model. The Indians are heavily subsidizing their exports to annihiliate the competetion just like CHina is doing on electronics and steel.

You need better evidence than your personal experience. Subsidizing rice exports also means that the price of rice rises in the local market, not something a government that wants to be re-elected would want to do.

 

[rhony]

You need better evidence than your personal experience. Subsidizing rice exports also means that the price of rice rises in the local market, not something a government that wants to be re-elected would want to do.

There you go. A simple google search showed this


https://www.thehindubusinessline.co...in-exports-farm-subsidies/article20717386.ece

 

[Napa]

There you go. A simple google search showed this


https://www.thehindubusinessline.co...in-exports-farm-subsidies/article20717386.ece

Read the article carefully. It doesn't quite support your contention.

India has been providing "support prices" to its farmers for decades. The idea is that they wish to provide farmers security by increasing the price which they are paid for their produce.

India also ensures that the consumer is able to get food at an affordable price.

Food Security Programme which offers 5 kg of subsidised foodgrain to about two-thirds of its population.

As for exports:

In a representation to the CoA, Canada has also asked India to specify how it calculates the floor price (minimum price) for wheat exports. “Reports (news) indicate that the Government of India has lowered the floor price for wheat to $260 per tonne from $300 per tonne which is lower than the price of the same quality wheat from Canada (and other countries) sold in the range of $270 to $275 per tonne,” the representation said.

A "floor price" does not mean that the government is subsidizing exports. Rather it means the government is telling the exporters "you cannot export at a low price, you can only export at a price greater than the floor price". This forces the exporter to sell at home rather than abroad if the international market price is lower than the floor price. For example, if the domestic price is $240 per tonne, the international price is $275 per tonne, and the "floor price" is $300 a tonne, then the exporter would rather sell abroad at $275, but is forced to sell at home at $240. This is the opposite of an export subsidy.

As for rice exports:

Pakistan, in its representation to the CoA, has asked India to furnish details of rice exports in the last two years. It has also asked the country to clarify if all non-Basmati rice varieties were eligible for market price support. “India will get some time to reply to the questions,” the official said.

Here Pakistan is just asking for data, there is nothing in the article which says that India is subsidizing rice exports.

 

[rhony]

Thanks for the clarification. Was a bit lazy with my search. I will try to find some substantial to support my argument.

 

[TM Riddle]

Look at the arrogance of yet another indian. Deciding everything himself lol

The fate of Kashmir will be decided by Kashmiris themselves. The actual owners of the land. Not some Indians sitting in Nagpur.

Brother I can feel and understand your anger. I would have had the similar sentiments had it been me in your place but the thing is India SIMPLY cannot afford to let Kashmir go. Not it would even be a strategically disastrous but it would also set a bad precedent which could lead to various dormant secessionist movements and anti India forces becoming active to break and divide the nation further eventually leading to the complete fragmentation. That my friend is simply unacceptable to us.
Therefore let it be clear that Kashmir belongs to India , always have and always will. Only a nuclear war could change this situation. Time has come for you to join the dark side young Padawan.

 

[troodon]

Keep screaming about independence and keep dreaming about Kashmir separating from India.

It will never happen. Heck, Kashmir could not be taken away from India in 80's when India was a minnow. Now it has grown large enough to not only defend itself, but influence many countries.

For all the day dreamers, India is too strong in both military and economic front. Only major world powers like USA or Euro nations combined can put pressure on India. But why would they care about separatists in Kashmir? They are nobodies to them.
Major players in this world do business worth billions of dollars with India. Nobody want to be enemies of India.

Bottom line, just accept the fact that POK stays with Pak and Indian Kashmir stays with India. It will benefit both India and Pak. All Muslim Kashmiris can stay with India. Anyone who cannot digest it can cry and moan or can move to the land of their choice.

 

[TM Riddle]

Keep screaming about independence and keep dreaming about Kashmir separating from India.

It will never happen. Heck, Kashmir could not be taken away from India in 80's when India was a minnow. Now it has grown large enough to not only defend itself, but influence many countries.

For all the day dreamers, India is too strong in both military and economic front. Only major world powers like USA or Euro nations combined can put pressure on India. But why would they care about separatists in Kashmir? They are nobodies to them.
Major players in this world do business worth billions of dollars with India. Nobody want to be enemies of India.

Bottom line, just accept the fact that POK stays with Pak and Indian Kashmir stays with India. It will benefit both India and Pak. All Muslim Kashmiris can stay with India. Anyone who cannot digest it can cry and moan or can move to the land of their choice.

You put it more bluntly but yeah I agree with the basic premise of your post.

 

[moghul]

How about asking Kashmiris regarding their future, I'm OK whatever they want, even that include giving away Azad Kashmir.

 

[Pakistanian]

How about asking Kashmiris regarding their future, I'm OK whatever they want, even that include giving away Azad Kashmir.

Giving it away against their own wishes lol? It also makes no sense in terms of culture and language.

 

[English August]

Look at the arrogance of yet another indian. Deciding everything himself lol

The fate of Kashmir will be decided by Kashmiris themselves. The actual owners of the land. Not some Indians sitting in Nagpur.

That makes no sense at all.

Punjabis didn't get a chance to decide their fate. They were ruthlessly split into India and Pakistan.
UP wallahs didn't get a chance to decide their fate. They were asked to join India.
Bengalis didn't get a chance to decide their fate. They were ruthlessly split into India and Pakistan, and eventually Bangladesh.
Tamilians didn't get a chance to decide their fate. They were asked to join India.
Sindhis didn't get a chance to decide their fate. They were asked to join Pakistan.

So why should Kashmiris get to decide anything? What makes them so different?

 

[English August]

I will just give you one example that I have experienced myself. We have a chain of grocery stores in greater chicago area. Until two years ago, our basmati rice and spices were from both Pakistan and India. We get them from a local distributor here who's a Pakistani by the way. In the last 2 years, it has changed drastically. We only get Indian stuff these days to sell. He told me once that his profits are more with Indian made stuff and he changed his entire business model. The Indians are heavily subsidizing their exports to annihiliate the competetion just like CHina is doing on electronics and steel.

So India is winning the trade war with Pakistan? How did that happen?

Since CPEC is supposed to solve all Pakistani problems, why don't we ask the Chinese to extend the scope of CPEC to grocery stores in Chicago?

 

[English August]

If India thinks it can take Pakistani Kashmir then it should drop such thoughts, millions of Pakistanis have visited the Northern Areas and grew an attachment to it, in case of war everyone would come out to fight.

That's a myth. There is zero evidence to suggest that people are willing to make the ultimate sacrifice for this so called Kashmiri independence struggle. All we see is handful of terrorists being trained in the Pakistani camps and sent to India to wage jihad. Rest of the Kashmiris and their Pakistani friends prefer to migrate to gulf or UK and lead comfortable lives (perhaps in council houses in London as a Pakistani poster suggested?)

 

[Madplayer]

That makes no sense at all.

Punjabis didn't get a chance to decide their fate. They were ruthlessly split into India and Pakistan.
UP wallahs didn't get a chance to decide their fate. They were asked to join India.
Bengalis didn't get a chance to decide their fate. They were ruthlessly split into India and Pakistan, and eventually Bangladesh.
Tamilians didn't get a chance to decide their fate. They were asked to join India.
Sindhis didn't get a chance to decide their fate. They were asked to join Pakistan.

So why should Kashmiris get to decide anything? What makes them so different?

I wont go into details of flawed and villainous your argument is. You can ask your Chacha Nehru why Kashmir's case is different. It was India who took the dispute to UN, not anyone else.

 

[kingusama92]

Indian and Pakistani politicians have built their entire careers on the shoulders of Kashmir.

Have a political problem? Blame India/Pakistan.

Want to increase the defense budget? Blame India/Pakistan.

And so on.

The sentiment on both sides is completely negative and they'll milk this cow for a very long time. The common man is too egotistical when it comes to their arch enemy across the border and politicians fuel the fire.

 

[English August]

I wont go into details of flawed and villainous your argument is. You can ask your Chacha Nehru why Kashmir's case is different. It was India who took the dispute to UN, not anyone else.

Chacha Nehru's been dead for 50+ years. Why don't you answer the question instead of deflecting to Nehru? Probably because you don't have a good answer.

 

[TM Riddle]

I wont go into details of flawed and villainous your argument is. You can ask your Chacha Nehru why Kashmir's case is different. It was India who took the dispute to UN, not anyone else.

Chacha Nehru is long dead and nobdoy cares about his ideals or policies anymore. And no Kashmir's case was not different , not anymore at least. It is here to stay and you posting threads upon threads is not gonna do jack about it
. It's time regular Kashmiris accept it and start integrating with the mainstream Indians. Else you would see more incidents like the one recently happened in Shopian. Nobody is going to get acquited as long as AFSPA is there and innocent lives would keep getting lost.
For goodness sake India has given Kashmir a 'Special Category Status' and every scheme whether be it Centrally sponsored or Central Sector , Kashmir gets free doles. Start appreciating what you have. Heck ask Andhra Pradesh what it means to them.
And don't even get me started on Pundit exodus.

 

[TM Riddle]

Indian and Pakistani politicians have built their entire careers on the shoulders of Kashmir.

Have a political problem? Blame India/Pakistan.

Want to increase the defense budget? Blame India/Pakistan.

And so on.

The sentiment on both sides is completely negative and they'll milk this cow for a very long time. The common man is too egotistical when it comes to their arch enemy across the border and politicians fuel the fire.

It's not that simple actually. Kashmir is strategically extremely important to both India and Pakistan and not to mention the valuable resources. With China sniffing around , India would be mad to give up on Kashmir. Sure Politicians on both sides milk the issue for electoral gains but deep down inside everyone knows about the significance the Valley holds for future endeavors of both the nations.
An Independent Kashmir won't survive a week.

 

[English August]

Sure Politicians on both sides milk the issue for electoral gains but deep down inside everyone knows about the significance the Valley holds for future endeavors of both the nations.

I never understood this statement. Kashmir has zero relevance to electoral politics in India. It has always been a non-issue.

 

[TM Riddle]

I never understood this statement. Kashmir has zero relevance to electoral politics in India. It has always been a non-issue.

It used to in the past. But yes now a days the focus has been shifted to more Pak centric rhetoric (which isn't completely unjustifiable btw) with Kashmir rarely getting a mention. I believe the incessant firing on LOC is to be blamed.

 

[asifp]

Its the only realistic solution.

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

As a Kashmiri, no.

Many Pakistanis as well as Indians are clueless about Kashmir!

It is a diverse area.

[MENTION=131678]Madplayer[/MENTION] tell me if you agree this is likely the outcome of a UN referendum if it is held tomorrow?

GB- Pakistan win
AJK- Pakistan win
Kashmir valley- Pakistan win
Chenab valley- Pakistan win
Jammu City and south Jammu region- India win
Ladakh- India win
Kargil- Pakistan win.

The above is precisely why India wants LoC as status quo and why Pakistan will never agree to such a pathetic decision!

 

[Hitman]

Here's C. Christine Fair explaining the conditions of the Kashmir plebiscite to a Pakistani journalist -

 

[maverick85]

Sad truth of the matter is might is right. There was a window of opportunity at the time for azadi for the kashmiris. they didn't seize the moment. Their history is not of being of people who are fiercely independent. the azad kashmiris of north punjabi raja and jatt stock (river jhelum etc), the sudhantis of pashtun stock, the gilgit baltistanis stood up at the time. the valley lot were just weak. Its funny listening to indians talking about azad kashmir as if they will walk into it freely, the jatts and rajputs would tear them a new one if they try.

 

[PakLFC]

Pak is greatly lacking in diplomacy. We don't know how to talk to the world and put forward our perspective. It's beyond laughable to think that India can invade Azaad Kashmir.

 

[humzy]

Of course there is no Muslim army at this moment to stand up for the Palestinians but there will be for them and the Kashmiris. Israel is to strong for them then the Arab's have sold out themselves as well however nothing is forever. I agree that the Arab's on their own are nothing but Pak, Iran and Turkey to name a few know how to fight. They will fight with Pak when Muslim interests become one.

These are the delusions of the naive muslim living in their own country with their heads in the sand.

There is and will be no muslim alliance. The only alliance that governments have with each other are based on mutual profiteering.

The alliance based on religion is something of the past and does not work in the current modern age.

The only losers in this game are Kashmiris who have been getting played by both sides for their personal gains.

 

[humzy]

We have seen what the Pakistani military can do for its fellow muslim brothers (Bangladesh) in the past when they wanted to decide their own fate.

 

[amax]

Keep screaming about independence and keep dreaming about Kashmir separating from India.

It will never happen. Heck, Kashmir could not be taken away from India in 80's when India was a minnow. Now it has grown large enough to not only defend itself, but influence many countries.

For all the day dreamers, India is too strong in both military and economic front. Only major world powers like USA or Euro nations combined can put pressure on India. But why would they care about separatists in Kashmir? They are nobodies to them.
Major players in this world do business worth billions of dollars with India. Nobody want to be enemies of India.

Bottom line, just accept the fact that POK stays with Pak and Indian Kashmir stays with India. It will benefit both India and Pak. All Muslim Kashmiris can stay with India. Anyone who cannot digest it can cry and moan or can move to the land of their choice.

I think it is the only viable solution , soft borders even open borders can be created afterwords, also the regions Pakistan has Gilgit Baltistan and Azad Kashmir are quite different from valley Kashmir than we havb Jammu and Ladakh which is also quite different to valley just because a region was lumped under Dogra rule doesnt mean its all same.

 

[JaDed]

Look at the arrogance of yet another indian. Deciding everything himself lol

The fate of Kashmir will be decided by Kashmiris themselves. The actual owners of the land. Not some Indians sitting in Nagpur.

Yes but then do you believe every state and areas as small as Catalonia around Asia should be allowed to decide their future in that aspect?

Examples: Kashmir,Punjab,Sindh,Balochistan,FATA,Tibet,Xinjiang,Tamil Side of Lanka,Kurdistan,Hong Kong I can keep going on and on and it wont stop.

 

[PakLFC]

These are the delusions of the naive muslim living in their own country with their heads in the sand.

There is and will be no muslim alliance. The only alliance that governments have with each other are based on mutual profiteering.

The alliance based on religion is something of the past and does not work in the current modern age.

The only losers in this game are Kashmiris who have been getting played by both sides for their personal gains.

Don't be silly! Read again if you can, I have said there is no Muslim unity at this time but could be in the future. Your nonsense about the future is an opinion not divine revelation. If there can be a UN then there can be a similar Muslim unification organisation as well.