Corrupt but competent?

[Syed1]

We are often told that by the cult followers of corrupt toola that the corrupt but competent governments of PPP and PML-N were better than the clean but incompetent government of PTI.


Well here is a display of supreme competence exhibited by the PPP government in Sindh where they are in their third consecutive term because Bhutto refuses to die

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">October 2016<br>CCTV Cameras to be installed in Karachi<a href="https://t.co/6mK02IfZud">https://t.co/6mK02IfZud</a></p>— Ali Haider Zaidi (@AliHZaidiPTI) <a href="https://twitter.com/AliHZaidiPTI/status/1221433175349567493?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 26, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-conversation="none"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">August 2017<br>CCTV Cameras to be installed in Karachi<a href="https://t.co/77BDrdyuUy">https://t.co/77BDrdyuUy</a></p>— Ali Haider Zaidi (@AliHZaidiPTI) <a href="https://twitter.com/AliHZaidiPTI/status/1221433177530564611?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 26, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>



<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-conversation="none"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">February 2019 <br>CCTV Cameras to be installed in Karachi<a href="https://t.co/5XEoSxRWGJ">https://t.co/5XEoSxRWGJ</a></p>— Ali Haider Zaidi (@AliHZaidiPTI) <a href="https://twitter.com/AliHZaidiPTI/status/1221433179636146177?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 26, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

(Typo here by Ali Zaidi, he meant to say January 2020)
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-conversation="none"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">January 2019<br>CCTV Cameras to be installed in Karachi<a href="https://t.co/bh1Nhjoi0T">https://t.co/bh1Nhjoi0T</a></p>— Ali Haider Zaidi (@AliHZaidiPTI) <a href="https://twitter.com/AliHZaidiPTI/status/1221433181804601345?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 26, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>


<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-conversation="none"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Wouldn’t we all love to find out how many times these CCTV Cameras have been sanctioned & installed in this great city of ours...*</p>— Ali Haider Zaidi (@AliHZaidiPTI) <a href="https://twitter.com/AliHZaidiPTI/status/1221433183843110913?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 26, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>



Bhai aisi competence ka achaar dalna hai?

 

[WebGuru]

Come on Bilawal and his papa's party need more time to show competency in Sindh because 12 years of ruling Sindh is not enough...

They will finally install these CCTV cameras after the 20th failed attempt to launch Bilawal in national politics.

 

[Bigboii]

I don't think people like ppp much the case was always for pmln bieng more comptent than PTI

 

[Bewal Express]

It's interesting that when these losers are asked for examples about the competence of the corrupt , they run.

 

[WebGuru]

I don't think people like ppp much the case was always for pmln bieng more comptent than PTI

These days they have turned their hopes to Bilawal after the janaza of vote ko izat do by PMLN. Although PPP also supported that army act just like PMLN but PMLN is on receiving end for fooling the nation with vote ko izat do slogan for 3 years and thn surrendering on first available opportunity...

 

[Bigboii]

These days they have turned their hopes to Bilawal after the janaza of vote ko izat do by PMLN. Although PPP also supported that army act just like PMLN but PMLN is on receiving end for fooling the nation with vote ko izat do slogan for 3 years and thn surrendering on first available opportunity...

This action singlehandedly turned me off from pmln
I was never a ****** but appreciated some of the things they did and seeing Lahore change and it's devolpment I genuinely felt they were going in the right direction but after thier latest stunt I feel every thing they ever did was to serve thier own interests they didn't care about democracy it was just so that they can get out of prison. Yes I am one those dumb#"*@* who actually believed tham and I apologise to myself for bieng that stupid.

Saying that PTI administration is very incompetent and thier ministers are a bunch of bufoons who have no idea how to run a country remember ik can't run the whole country and his selections are really bad imo

 

[Bigboii]

This action singlehandedly turned me off from pmln
I was never a ****** but appreciated some of the things they did and seeing Lahore change and it's devolpment I genuinely felt they were going in the right direction but after thier latest stunt I feel every thing they ever did was to serve thier own interests they didn't care about democracy it was just so that they can get out of prison. Yes I am one those dumb#"*@* who actually believed tham and I apologise to myself for bieng that stupid.

Saying that PTI administration is very incompetent and thier ministers are a bunch of bufoons who have no idea how to run a country remember ik can't run the whole country and his selections are really bad imo

Fan (it wasn't a curse)

 

[WebGuru]

This action singlehandedly turned me off from pmln
I was never a ****** but appreciated some of the things they did and seeing Lahore change and it's devolpment I genuinely felt they were going in the right direction but after thier latest stunt I feel every thing they ever did was to serve thier own interests they didn't care about democracy it was just so that they can get out of prison. Yes I am one those dumb#"*@* who actually believed tham and I apologise to myself for bieng that stupid.

Saying that PTI administration is very incompetent and thier ministers are a bunch of bufoons who have no idea how to run a country remember ik can't run the whole country and his selections are really bad imo

Glad you saw the light and i agree with your pov about some' ministers.

 

[Saeed]

Since when did N League or PPP become competent? They are not even good at using Microsoft word let alone more complex things. While PPP’s stronghold speaks for its competence.

 

[Mamoon]

What PTI cult-followers like the OP fail to understand (perhaps not smart enough to understand) is that when people talk about competency, they do not refer to PPP or PMLN. Neither of those parties are competent.

However, in general, you will only drive a country forward by focusing on building competencies rather focusing on eliminating corruption.

You can hire the most honest person in the world for a job but if he doesn’t have the skills and the knowledge, he will be of no use. In this context, a highly skilled and knowledgable person would be more productive and will yield better results even if he is corrupt.

That is what PTI and its cult-followers fail to understand. Their fixation with corruption proves that they have no idea what it takes to drive a country forward. Every booming economy in the world is the result of competency rather than honesty.

Of course corruption should be minimized (it cannot be eliminated), but the the negative impact of incompetency is far greater than the negative impact of corruption.

Moreover, it is funny to see PTI cult-followers questioning the competency of PPP, when Imran Khan recruited shameless lotas like Shah Mehmood Qureshi, Pervez Khattak, Fawad Chaudhry, Firdous Awan and Hafeez Sheikh etc. from PPP, and has somehow convinced his cult-followers that he can usher an era of Naya Pakistan with the same incompetent individuals.

PTI is an extremely incompetent party because it has welcomed tried and tested lotas into the fold in order to exploit their vote banks. Now these people couldn’t care less about the dream of Madinah Riyasat where poor people are stealing from shops and apologizing at the same time because they cannot even afford basic necessities anymore.

These frauds are only interested in getting ministries and that is why they jumped on the PTI bandwagon. As a result, Imran had no choice but to give these incompetent people ministries.

That is why Imran’s revolution is a sham. There is no Naya Pakistan. It is still Purana Pakistan where the same crooks, frauds and corrupt duffers are hogging ministries under the PTI slogan. Once the PTI ship sinks, these same lotas will be absorbed by other parties.

 

[Mamoon]

Furthermore, PTI government is not clean. Maybe it is in the utopian world, but not in the actual world where we live in.

Pervez Khattak did corruption to his heart’s content during his time as KP CM, and the disastrous BRT project itself has been a major source of corruption for not only Pervez Khattak but also several local leaders, contractors and bureaucrats.

Imran Khan himself is not interested in getting his name clearing in the Foreign Funding case. He has been running for 5 years and is demanded secrecy in investigations. If he has nothing to hide, why is he demanding secrecy?

An honest person who has nothing to hide will waste no time in clearing the accusations and will publicize the proceedings because it will strengthen his position.

This is actually a great opportunity for Imran Khan - as a self-proclaimed champion of honesty, he should publicize the proceedings of the case and clear all the allegations and charges on live TV, which would further strengthen his image as an honest man and would humiliate people like Akbar Babar who have filed the charges against him.

He is not doing it because he is not honest and has skeletons in the closet.

 

[Azzurri]

What PTI cult-followers like the OP fail to understand (perhaps not smart enough to understand) is that when people talk about competency, they do not refer to PPP or PMLN. Neither of those parties are competent.

However, in general, you will only drive a country forward by focusing on building competencies rather focusing on eliminating corruption.

You can hire the most honest person in the world for a job but if he doesn’t have the skills and the knowledge, he will be of no use. In this context, a highly skilled and knowledgable person would be more productive and will yield better results even if he is corrupt.

That is what PTI and its cult-followers fail to understand. Their fixation with corruption proves that they have no idea what it takes to drive a country forward. Every booming economy in the world is the result of competency rather than honesty.

Of course corruption should be minimized (it cannot be eliminated), but the the negative impact of incompetency is far greater than the negative impact of corruption.

Moreover, it is funny to see PTI cult-followers questioning the competency of PPP, when Imran Khan recruited shameless lotas like Shah Mehmood Qureshi, Pervez Khattak, Fawad Chaudhry, Firdous Awan and Hafeez Sheikh etc. from PPP, and has somehow convinced his cult-followers that he can usher an era of Naya Pakistan with the same incompetent individuals.

PTI is an extremely incompetent party because it has welcomed tried and tested lotas into the fold in order to exploit their vote banks. Now these people couldn’t care less about the dream of Madinah Riyasat where poor people are stealing from shops and apologizing at the same time because they cannot even afford basic necessities anymore.

These frauds are only interested in getting ministries and that is why they jumped on the PTI bandwagon. As a result, Imran had no choice but to give these incompetent people ministries.

That is why Imran’s revolution is a sham. There is no Naya Pakistan. It is still Purana Pakistan where the same crooks, frauds and corrupt duffers are hogging ministries under the PTI slogan. Once the PTI ship sinks, these same lotas will be absorbed by other parties.

Having read your confused and divergent post, I am extremely curious to know the names of the corrupt but competent faces in PMLN and PP. I hope you do answer this time

 

[GoUgandaCranes]

Having read your confused and divergent post, I am extremely curious to know the names of the corrupt but competent faces in PMLN and PP. I hope you do answer this time

There are none.

This is just a smokescreen. Being corrupt automatically makes a person incompetent and that's about that. You cannot put your selfish interest above the greater good of the people in a job and claim that you are competent.

It only makes you a thieve, a self-centered person who has no values and sees their own self better than the others.

 

[proud_pakistani]

There's no point in competence when there is corruption. You will always have to sacrifice competence in some way or the other if you are corrupt. A corrupt person will have to hide his money abroad at some point in time. A corrupt person will try to amend government policies to benefit himself. So no corrupt but competent does not work. Ofcourse all of them need to have basic knowledge of what they are getting into.

 

[Bewal Express]

Having read your confused and divergent post, I am extremely curious to know the names of the corrupt but competent faces in PMLN and PP. I hope you do answer this time

I have asked this question 100s of times, i am still waiting- so get in line for any answer.

 

[last_knight]

What PTI cult-followers like the OP fail to understand (perhaps not smart enough to understand) is that when people talk about competency, they do not refer to PPP or PMLN. Neither of those parties are competent.

However, in general, you will only drive a country forward by focusing on building competencies rather focusing on eliminating corruption.

You can hire the most honest person in the world for a job but if he doesn’t have the skills and the knowledge, he will be of no use. In this context, a highly skilled and knowledgable person would be more productive and will yield better results even if he is corrupt.

That is what PTI and its cult-followers fail to understand. Their fixation with corruption proves that they have no idea what it takes to drive a country forward. Every booming economy in the world is the result of competency rather than honesty.

Of course corruption should be minimized (it cannot be eliminated), but the the negative impact of incompetency is far greater than the negative impact of corruption.

Moreover, it is funny to see PTI cult-followers questioning the competency of PPP, when Imran Khan recruited shameless lotas like Shah Mehmood Qureshi, Pervez Khattak, Fawad Chaudhry, Firdous Awan and Hafeez Sheikh etc. from PPP, and has somehow convinced his cult-followers that he can usher an era of Naya Pakistan with the same incompetent individuals.

PTI is an extremely incompetent party because it has welcomed tried and tested lotas into the fold in order to exploit their vote banks. Now these people couldn’t care less about the dream of Madinah Riyasat where poor people are stealing from shops and apologizing at the same time because they cannot even afford basic necessities anymore.

These frauds are only interested in getting ministries and that is why they jumped on the PTI bandwagon. As a result, Imran had no choice but to give these incompetent people ministries.

That is why Imran’s revolution is a sham. There is no Naya Pakistan. It is still Purana Pakistan where the same crooks, frauds and corrupt duffers are hogging ministries under the PTI slogan. Once the PTI ship sinks, these same lotas will be absorbed by other parties.

Not related to TimePass forum but going by this logic, Match/Spot fixing is a lesser crime and can be ignored if the player is scoring centuries right left and centre.

All this when the well developed countries have severe punishments for Financial Corruption.

 

[Mamoon]

Having read your confused and divergent post, I am extremely curious to know the names of the corrupt but competent faces in PMLN and PP. I hope you do answer this time

The answer to your question lies in the first paragraph of my post.

 

[Mamoon]

Not related to TimePass forum but going by this logic, Match/Spot fixing is a lesser crime and can be ignored if the player is scoring centuries right left and centre.

All this when the well developed countries have severe punishments for Financial Corruption.

Corruption should be punished, but people should be appointed based on competency and not on honesty.

If a person does not have the capability, his honesty would be useless. The goal should be to develop a culture where competent people are less inclined to do corruption.

Well-developed countries punish financial corruption but they don’t hire people for their honesty if they are not qualified.

The biggest platform for corruption in Pakistan is civil service, and the biggest reason for the corruption is that CSP officers are paid peanuts.

Getting into civil service is extremely difficult because of the competition, and in spite of clearing all the hurdles, the CSP officers are paid peanuts compared to the private sector.

To reduce the corruption, you will have to raise their salaries.

As far as the cricket analogy is concerned - who was more beneficial for Pakistan cricket? Wasim Akram or someone like Junaid Khan (assuming he is not a fixer).

In an ideal world, you would want competent and honest people. Unfortunately, in the real world, because of circumstances, you have to make a compromise.

The choice between competent/corrupt and incompetent/honest should be an easy one.

 

[Mamoon]

There are none.

This is just a smokescreen. Being corrupt automatically makes a person incompetent and that's about that. You cannot put your selfish interest above the greater good of the people in a job and claim that you are competent.

It only makes you a thieve, a self-centered person who has no values and sees their own self better than the others.

Absolutely not.

Let me explain with a basic example. You are the Chief Minister of a province and you plan to build a network of highways.

You have the choice between a highly qualified group of engineers with vast experience and qualifications and another group that has no experience and has mediocre qualifications.

The former group, the qualified and experienced one, is corrupt. They get the job done, but they also put some of the funds in their pockets.

On the other hand, the inexperienced, mediocre engineers are honest but they are clueless.

Who would you give the project? And who is more likely to do a better job?

Yes you would try to find experienced, qualified and honest engineers but suppose they are not available.

 

[Mamoon]

If you give incompetent people a job, you will get Peshawar BRT.

Although there has been a lot of corruption, but even if there wasn’t, millions of rupees have been wasted because of the incompetence of the engineers and the contractors.

After spending building to build the tracks, they realized that it wasn’t wide enough to accommodate two trains simultaneously. Hence, they had to demolish it and start all over again.

Today, it’s completion is still not in slight in spite. PTI gave 6 deadlines and all of them have been passed with flying colors.

This what incompetence gives you.

Fawad Chaudhry claiming that Pakistan sent the Hubble telescope to space is what incompetence gives you. What will he achieve as minister of science and tech even if he doesn’t do a rupee of corruption?

Few months back, he met the strategic officer of Telenor in his Islamabad office for a meeting. The first thing he told him, in front of dozens of employees, is that people must be jealous of how beautiful his office is.

That’s what incompetence gives you.

In December 2018, the Telenor group CEO, who is also Norwegian, visited Pakistan to meet with Imran Khan.

The first thing Imran Khan asked him was if they were from Germany. The CEO was offended.

Imran Khan didn’t bother to do a 5 min research and realize that Telenor is Norwegian and the CEO that he was meeting with was also Norwegian.

This is what incompetence gives you.

 

[Bewal Express]

If you give incompetent people a job, you will get Peshawar BRT.

Although there has been a lot of corruption, but even if there wasn’t, millions of rupees have been wasted because of the incompetence of the engineers and the contractors.

After spending building to build the tracks, they realized that it wasn’t wide enough to accommodate two trains simultaneously. Hence, they had to demolish it and start all over again.

Today, it’s completion is still not in slight in spite. PTI gave 6 deadlines and all of them have been passed with flying colors.

This what incompetence gives you.

Fawad Chaudhry claiming that Pakistan sent the Hubble telescope to space is what incompetence gives you. What will he achieve as minister of science and tech even if he doesn’t do a rupee of corruption?

Few months back, he met the strategic officer of Telenor in his Islamabad office for a meeting. The first thing he told him, in front of dozens of employees, is that people must be jealous of how beautiful his office is.

That’s what incompetence gives you.

In December 2018, the Telenor group CEO, who is also Norwegian, visited Pakistan to meet with Imran Khan.

The first thing Imran Khan asked him was if they were from Germany. The CEO was offended.

Imran Khan didn’t bother to do a 5 min research and realize that Telenor is Norwegian and the CEO that he was meeting with was also Norwegian.

This is what incompetence gives you.

As you are saying the corrupt are more competent, lets see examples of when these corrupt did something even 1/2 competent. You have 30 years of govt to chose from, can you give us lets even a few examples of corrupt but competent ministers.

 

[GoUgandaCranes]

Absolutely not.

Let me explain with a basic example. You are the Chief Minister of a province and you plan to build a network of highways.

You have the choice between a highly qualified group of engineers with vast experience and qualifications and another group that has no experience and has mediocre qualifications.

The former group, the qualified and experienced one, is corrupt. They get the job done, but they also put some of the funds in their pockets.

On the other hand, the inexperienced, mediocre engineers are honest but they are clueless.

Who would you give the project? And who is more likely to do a better job?

Yes you would try to find experienced, qualified and honest engineers but suppose they are not available.

The example is flawed again. The whole premise that you have to select between an incompetent versus a competent and corrupt individual is flawed.

When you let corruption thrive by being apologetic towards it, the whole system collapses and that's the case we are having. You can train a competent person and get them to the requisite skill standard even if takes a bit of time. While corruption leads to a cyclical imbalance that only pushes talent downwards and the whole society crumbles.

To answer your question in this case, I'd do neither, I'd train the incompetent engineers while the corrupt engineers will get their punishment that's due. And to counter your argument that this isn't the ideal world and reality is different etc. this isn't an ideal world because no one is trying to make it one. There are countries even in our world that have sorted out these problems. Imagine Sweden having doctors that are corrupt but competent and incompetent but honest and people having to make a choice every time they need a surgery ...

 

[WebGuru]

The example is flawed again. The whole premise that you have to select between an incompetent versus a competent and corrupt individual is flawed.

When you let corruption thrive by being apologetic towards it, the whole system collapses and that's the case we are having. You can train a competent person and get them to the requisite skill standard even if takes a bit of time. While corruption leads to a cyclical imbalance that only pushes talent downwards and the whole society crumbles.

To answer your question in this case, I'd do neither, I'd train the incompetent engineers while the corrupt engineers will get their punishment that's due. And to counter your argument that this isn't the ideal world and reality is different etc. this isn't an ideal world because no one is trying to make it one. There are countries even in our world that have sorted out these problems. Imagine Sweden having doctors that are corrupt but competent and incompetent but honest and people having to make a choice every time they need a surgery ...

Good points I will add mega corruption destroys the institutions and society. Thn it takes decades to recover and clean the mess created by corruption.

 

[Knight_Rider]

What a daft Question to start the thread with. Being corrupt and Being incompetent are two different things altogether, which may or may not overlap (at all).

The whole British empire was built on corruption but ruled successfully by choosing competent people to run it. The ordinary british ppl in victorian Britain had a bad life, so did ordinary people in the empire’s colonies. As for Sind, PPP is a rotten and dynastic regime. Bhutto’s father was a feudal and only opted for pakistan to save his feudal estate. To this day all they (Bhuttos and now Zardari) care about is their personal interest. Google the interview of Hakim Ali Zardari.

PPP should be banned as a party and the looted wealth recovered by force. They have done nothing for anyone (other than their ethnicity based over recruitment in government jobs). For e.g. Karachi Airport feels like interior Sindh and is massively overstaffed.

 

[AdamM97]

Absolutely not.

Let me explain with a basic example. You are the Chief Minister of a province and you plan to build a network of highways.

You have the choice between a highly qualified group of engineers with vast experience and qualifications and another group that has no experience and has mediocre qualifications.

The former group, the qualified and experienced one, is corrupt. They get the job done, but they also put some of the funds in their pockets.

On the other hand, the inexperienced, mediocre engineers are honest but they are clueless.

Who would you give the project? And who is more likely to do a better job?

Yes you would try to find experienced, qualified and honest engineers but suppose they are not available.

In this case, the engineer might be experienced but certainly not competent.

PMLN and PPP have traded power for around 25 years (if we exlude Musharraf’s dictatorship). Pakistan has only gone downhill ever since.

 

[Azzurri]

The answer to your question lies in the first paragraph of my post.

Well, going by this logic of yours, we don’t have any competent albeit corrupt politicians in our political arena. Therefore, why don’t you suggest some competent people or else what’s the point of bashing PTI day in day out if you don’t have any alternate suggestions.

 

[Bewal Express]

What a daft Question to start the thread with. Being corrupt and Being incompetent are two different things altogether, which may or may not overlap (at all).

The whole British empire was built on corruption but ruled successfully by choosing competent people to run it. The ordinary british ppl in victorian Britain had a bad life, so did ordinary people in the empire’s colonies. As for Sind, PPP is a rotten and dynastic regime. Bhutto’s father was a feudal and only opted for pakistan to save his feudal estate. To this day all they (Bhuttos and now Zardari) care about is their personal interest. Google the interview of Hakim Ali Zardari.

PPP should be banned as a party and the looted wealth recovered by force. They have done nothing for anyone (other than their ethnicity based over recruitment in government jobs). For e.g. Karachi Airport feels like interior Sindh and is massively overstaffed.

Oh dear, do you want to tell that [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION].

 

[WebGuru]

Oh dear, do you want to tell that [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION].

"PPP should be banned as a party and the looted wealth recovered by force" as if IK is the dictator and there are no courts. First theyuse democracy as an argument thn in next line they ask IK to act like a dictator....

damn if you do damn if you don't

 

[Knight_Rider]

Tbh, Imran Khan is a non-entity (and so are the rest of Barsaati Maindak) in his cabinet. Its the Military establishments that’s turns a blind eye from all these Mafia type Feudal parties, as long as they serve their interest.

Also i dont really think Western Style democracy is the correct governing system for a country like Pakistan (where society is easily polarized on many issues, where literacy rate is low and judicial system highly questionable). May be China is an interesting example, where ordinary people are benefiting without having a Western style democracy.

 

[Bewal Express]

"PPP should be banned as a party and the looted wealth recovered by force" as if IK is the dictator and there are no courts. First theyuse democracy as an argument thn in next line they ask IK to act like a dictator....

damn if you do damn if you don't

It was the same with some other cretin claiming that IK was a fascist dictator who is a puppet. lol

 

[WebGuru]

It was the same with some other cretin claiming that IK was a fascist dictator who is a puppet. lol

haha yea i remember that argument where IK was also claimed to be a puppet and dictator at the same time

 

[Mamoon]

Well, going by this logic of yours, we don’t have any competent albeit corrupt politicians in our political arena. Therefore, why don’t you suggest some competent people or else what’s the point of bashing PTI day in day out if you don’t have any alternate suggestions.

The point of bashing PTI is because they talk about bringing change, but then they end up doing what they criticized other parties for doing.

The ultimate, long-term solution is to get the military of out politics. That is the only way Pakistan will evolve politically and strengthen its democracy.

 

[Mamoon]

In this case, the engineer might be experienced but certainly not competent.

PMLN and PPP have traded power for around 25 years (if we exlude Musharraf’s dictatorship). Pakistan has only gone downhill ever since.

The military has been in power since Quaid-e-Azam’s death.

 

[Mamoon]

The example is flawed again. The whole premise that you have to select between an incompetent versus a competent and corrupt individual is flawed.

When you let corruption thrive by being apologetic towards it, the whole system collapses and that's the case we are having. You can train a competent person and get them to the requisite skill standard even if takes a bit of time. While corruption leads to a cyclical imbalance that only pushes talent downwards and the whole society crumbles.

To answer your question in this case, I'd do neither, I'd train the incompetent engineers while the corrupt engineers will get their punishment that's due. And to counter your argument that this isn't the ideal world and reality is different etc. this isn't an ideal world because no one is trying to make it one. There are countries even in our world that have sorted out these problems. Imagine Sweden having doctors that are corrupt but competent and incompetent but honest and people having to make a choice every time they need a surgery ...

Your answer is idealistic and based on Swedish ideals, a welfare country with high human development.

Pakistan is a third world country and corruption cannot be minimized in our society. It is how it is.

Hence, when it comes to choosing between a corrupt and honest person, you have to focus on who is more competent, i.e. who is more qualified and has the skills to do the job better.

Training incompetent people is not a practical solution. It will take a lot of time, cost a lot of money and there is no guarantee that they will develop competency.

Again, the ideal scenario is having honest and competent people. There is nothing better than that. However, you have to make a compromise.

Imran Khan’s financial advisor was the finance minister of PPP. Do you honestly think that he was unaware of the corruption that Zardari and co. were doing?

Billions and billions were leaving the country to buy properties abroad and load up Swiss accounts, but somehow, he didn’t have a clue?

There are two possibilities: he was either complicit and hence part of the corruption or he is terrible at his job.

So why did Imran hire him? Because he feels that in spite of being corrupt, he has the credentials to steer the economy in the right direction after the honest Asad Umar showed that he had no clue and was sacked by Imran after 8 months.

This whole competency vs corruption debate has been settled by Imran himself, and that’s why it is ironic to see the arguments of PTI supporters.

By choosing Hafeez Sheikh over Asad Umar, Imran Khan has proved that he values competency over corruption.

Unfortunately, everything Imran touches turns to ****, and the highly qualified Hafeez Sheikh doesn’t seem to have a grip on Pakistan’s rapidly deteriorating economy.

 

[Mamoon]

Good points I will add mega corruption destroys the institutions and society. Thn it takes decades to recover and clean the mess created by corruption.

Is that why Imran appointed Hafeez Sheikh? When he was the finance minister and Zardari was taking billions out of the country to buy properties, did he have no idea what was happening?

Did he not wonder where the billions were going? What sort of a finance minister was he?

 

[AdamM97]

The military has been in power since Quaid-e-Azam’s death.

So why blame Imran Khan if ”the military has been in power since Quaid-e-Azam’s death”?

Let’s face it, PPP and PMLN aren’t competent. Stop blaming the army for the failures of incompetent PPP and PMLN.

 

[Knight_Rider]

PPP and PML(N) have merely been the Front man (who also happened to be corrupt, thugs) and used opportunity to steal their small share. Majority of wealth is looted/wasted by the big white Elephant called Army. Go and see their luxurious facilities in Pakistan.

They are the ones, who always had the real power and have never been accountable for anything. We need someone smart like Erdogan to tame the out of control Army.

 

[Bewal Express]

The point of bashing PTI is because they talk about bringing change, but then they end up doing what they criticized other parties for doing.

The ultimate, long-term solution is to get the military of out politics. That is the only way Pakistan will evolve politically and strengthen its democracy.

Do you want to reply to my question on the Millitary and why you only mentioned it when NS started to talk about vote ki... Where was it before?

 

[Bewal Express]

PPP and PML(N) have merely been the Front man (who also happened to be corrupt, thugs) and used opportunity to steal their small share. Majority of wealth is looted/wasted by the big white Elephant called Army. Go and see their luxurious facilities in Pakistan.

They are the ones, who always had the real power and have never been accountable for anything. We need someone smart like Erdogan to tame the out of control Army.

So the PPP and the Nooras are part of the establishment. Thank you for accepting that fact.

 

[pakistanisgreat]

So the PPP and the Nooras are part of the establishment. Thank you for accepting that fact.

you have to be part of establishment in order to be in power! there is no second question or doubt about it.

 

[Bewal Express]

Is that why Imran appointed Hafeez Sheikh? When he was the finance minister and Zardari was taking billions out of the country to buy properties, did he have no idea what was happening?

Did he not wonder where the billions were going? What sort of a finance minister was he?

You are fan of Billo, so on the basis that Hafeez Sheikh is to blame for AZ looting what kind of crook is Billo? And the Omni group looting took place under NSs premiership. Do you agree that they should be hanged and the PPP banned?

 

[Bewal Express]

haha yea i remember that argument where IK was also claimed to be a puppet and dictator at the same time

Another Uturn, but any Uturn is halal Uturns from these cretins.

 

[Bewal Express]

you have to be part of establishment in order to be in power! there is no second question or doubt about it.

Fair point but why then keep saying IK is the only beneficiary. Bhutto and NS are both products of the military loin, they both served Dictators.

 

[srh]

Incompetencies of past governments cannot be used to justify incompetency of Imran Khan's government. Remember Imran Khan get into power based on promise of change. If his government is also incompetent like past governments then that means he made a fool out of Pakistan public.

 

[Mamoon]

So why blame Imran Khan if ”the military has been in power since Quaid-e-Azam’s death”?

Let’s face it, PPP and PMLN aren’t competent. Stop blaming the army for the failures of incompetent PPP and PMLN.

Because he gave people hope before taking a U-turn and making peace with the status quo.

He advertised himself as a revolutionist but eventually turned out to be another Nawaz/Zardari. He deserves more criticism than anyone else for proving himself to be a false messiah.

At least Nawaz did something that Imran will never have the courage for - charge a military dictator with treason.

 

[Mamoon]

Do you want to reply to my question on the Millitary and why you only mentioned it when NS started to talk about vote ki... Where was it before?

That is your ignorance. I have always been critical of the military as well as the mullahs. Vote ko izzat do is a recent phenomenon. Did you forget 2014 long march when I stopped supporting PTI and criticized Imran Khan for begging the umpire to raise his finger?

 

[Mamoon]

You are fan of Billo, so on the basis that Hafeez Sheikh is to blame for AZ looting what kind of crook is Billo? And the Omni group looting took place under NSs premiership. Do you agree that they should be hanged and the PPP banned?

You continue to deflect. Can you answer my question?

Why was Hafeez Sheikh quiet when Zardari taking billions out of the country? What sort of finance minister was he?

Why didn’t Imran consider his facilitation of corruption before appointing him as his advisor? Is this how he is going to end corruption in Pakistan?

Anyway, I will answer the Bilawal question. At the end of the day, Zardari is his father and PPP is his family party. He cannot betray his father or desert his party because of family corruption.

Now can you answer why Hafeez Sheikh was quiet when Zardari was looting the country? Please don’t tell me he didn’t know. I am sure even you are smart enough to not buy that excuse.

 

[Mamoon]

So why blame Imran Khan if ”the military has been in power since Quaid-e-Azam’s death”?

Let’s face it, PPP and PMLN aren’t competent. Stop blaming the army for the failures of incompetent PPP and PMLN.

PPP and PMLN should be blamed for administrative failures, but the foreign policy and strategic decisions were not in their control.

Similarly, Imran’s government is to be blamed for administrative failures as well. However, like PPP and PMLN, he has no zero influence on foreign policy.

 

[Bigboii]

PPP and PMLN should be blamed for administrative failures, but the foreign policy and strategic decisions were not in their control.

Similarly, Imran’s government is to be blamed for administrative failures as well. However, like PPP and PMLN, he has no zero influence on foreign policy.

Than why support one party if they are all incompetent just my two cents

 

[Bigboii]

Your answer is idealistic and based on Swedish ideals, a welfare country with high human development.

Pakistan is a third world country and corruption cannot be minimized in our society. It is how it is.

Hence, when it comes to choosing between a corrupt and honest person, you have to focus on who is more competent, i.e. who is more qualified and has the skills to do the job better.

Training incompetent people is not a practical solution. It will take a lot of time, cost a lot of money and there is no guarantee that they will develop competency.

Again, the ideal scenario is having honest and competent people. There is nothing better than that. However, you have to make a compromise.

Imran Khan’s financial advisor was the finance minister of PPP. Do you honestly think that he was unaware of the corruption that Zardari and co. were doing?

Billions and billions were leaving the country to buy properties abroad and load up Swiss accounts, but somehow, he didn’t have a clue?

There are two possibilities: he was either complicit and hence part of the corruption or he is terrible at his job.

So why did Imran hire him? Because he feels that in spite of being corrupt, he has the credentials to steer the economy in the right direction after the honest Asad Umar showed that he had no clue and was sacked by Imran after 8 months.

This whole competency vs corruption debate has been settled by Imran himself, and that’s why it is ironic to see the arguments of PTI supporters.

By choosing Hafeez Sheikh over Asad Umar, Imran Khan has proved that he values competency over corruption.

Unfortunately, everything Imran touches turns to ****, and the highly qualified Hafeez Sheikh doesn’t seem to have a grip on Pakistan’s rapidly deteriorating economy.

Except for scandanavian nations I don't think any other country can confidently say that they are not corrupt but I guess people have problem with mega corruption like billions of dollars getting stolen

 

[Bigboii]

PPP and PML(N) have merely been the Front man (who also happened to be corrupt, thugs) and used opportunity to steal their small share. Majority of wealth is looted/wasted by the big white Elephant called Army. Go and see their luxurious facilities in Pakistan.

They are the ones, who always had the real power and have never been accountable for anything. We need someone smart like Erdogan to tame the out of control Army.

This after pmln's latest stunt that's the conclusion I came up with

 

[cric_man]

PPP and PML(N) have merely been the Front man (who also happened to be corrupt, thugs) and used opportunity to steal their small share. Majority of wealth is looted/wasted by the big white Elephant called Army. Go and see their luxurious facilities in Pakistan.

They are the ones, who always had the real power and have never been accountable for anything. We need someone smart like Erdogan to tame the out of control Army.

Can you provide proof that the military "loots" majority of the wealth?

According to Index Mundi, Pakistan's military budget for 2018 was 4.03% of the GDP (includes both acquisiotn expenses & operational expenses). This is still high (it should not be over 2.5%) but we live in a very "hot" neighborhood. It is however not 30-40-50% that is quoted by the like of Ayesha Siddiqa or any other anti-pak lib brigade. See link :https://www.indexmundi.com/facts/pakistan/indicator/MS.MIL.XPND.GD.ZS

People do bring in Fauji Foundation/Shaheen Foundation as "proof" of military running businesses and hence doing corruption. That is a separate debate. I will be happy to provide insights on that if asked.

Your use of "luxurious facilities" as proof of corruption is flawed. "Luxurious" can be subjective. Being an AF brat, I can tell you most military facilities are very spartan.

Does corruption happen in the military - yes. Is the military some sort of corrupt behemoth that wants to pilfer each rupee from the people of Pakistan -- I don't think so.

Let's be objective, did Pak Army take over $70 Bil in foreign loans between 2009-2018 and stuff them in their offshore account and properties in London/Paris/Dubai?

Did the military stop the so called democratic governments from improving the economy in the past 10 years? Military may have control over foreign policy, but they did not interfere in government initiating tax reforms to expand tax net, land reforms, building dams.

Influence of military in Pak politics is a separate debate to be had, but there is no arguing that Pak Military aka "the establishment" has a big influence.

But the example of turkey is exactly how it needs to be. Uptil early 90s, Turkish military would unceremoniously dismiss Turkish elected governments. They even vetted and approved candidates that were deemed desirable to run in election let alone get elected.
Erdogan started off as mayor of Istanbul. He delivered results that people saw. He didn't antagonize the military. AKP came into power, built Turkish economy into a power house, slowly started to curb military role in the government over 20 years (even convicted a few generals of previous coups!). Now the Turkish military has minimal involvement. The last coup failed miserable. People laid down in front of tanks. Do you expect PML-N supporters to do the same on the streets of Lahore?

The example you brought in of Turkey is exactly how

 

[pakistanisgreat]

Can you provide proof that the military "loots" majority of the wealth?

According to Index Mundi, Pakistan's military budget for 2018 was 4.03% of the GDP (includes both acquisiotn expenses & operational expenses). This is still high (it should not be over 2.5%) but we live in a very "hot" neighborhood. It is however not 30-40-50% that is quoted by the like of Ayesha Siddiqa or any other anti-pak lib brigade. See link :https://www.indexmundi.com/facts/pakistan/indicator/MS.MIL.XPND.GD.ZS

People do bring in Fauji Foundation/Shaheen Foundation as "proof" of military running businesses and hence doing corruption. That is a separate debate. I will be happy to provide insights on that if asked.

Your use of "luxurious facilities" as proof of corruption is flawed. "Luxurious" can be subjective. Being an AF brat, I can tell you most military facilities are very spartan.

Does corruption happen in the military - yes. Is the military some sort of corrupt behemoth that wants to pilfer each rupee from the people of Pakistan -- I don't think so.

Let's be objective, did Pak Army take over $70 Bil in foreign loans between 2009-2018 and stuff them in their offshore account and properties in London/Paris/Dubai?

Did the military stop the so called democratic governments from improving the economy in the past 10 years? Military may have control over foreign policy, but they did not interfere in government initiating tax reforms to expand tax net, land reforms, building dams.

Influence of military in Pak politics is a separate debate to be had, but there is no arguing that Pak Military aka "the establishment" has a big influence.

But the example of turkey is exactly how it needs to be. Uptil early 90s, Turkish military would unceremoniously dismiss Turkish elected governments. They even vetted and approved candidates that were deemed desirable to run in election let alone get elected.
Erdogan started off as mayor of Istanbul. He delivered results that people saw. He didn't antagonize the military. AKP came into power, built Turkish economy into a power house, slowly started to curb military role in the government over 20 years (even convicted a few generals of previous coups!). Now the Turkish military has minimal involvement. The last coup failed miserable. People laid down in front of tanks. Do you expect PML-N supporters to do the same on the streets of Lahore?

The example you brought in of Turkey is exactly how

the question is how army getting all these weapons and they are testing missiles every other month? where that money coming from? To my understanding that recent loan from IMF has gone to Army.

Second my uncle got paid 750 million back in 2006 by musharraf just doing a work in sindh. My uncle was Maj General at that time. just imagine how much people got paid who were under him working and how much other people got paid who were above him.

 

[Bigboii]

Can you provide proof that the military "loots" majority of the wealth?

According to Index Mundi, Pakistan's military budget for 2018 was 4.03% of the GDP (includes both acquisiotn expenses & operational expenses). This is still high (it should not be over 2.5%) but we live in a very "hot" neighborhood. It is however not 30-40-50% that is quoted by the like of Ayesha Siddiqa or any other anti-pak lib brigade. See link :https://www.indexmundi.com/facts/pakistan/indicator/MS.MIL.XPND.GD.ZS

People do bring in Fauji Foundation/Shaheen Foundation as "proof" of military running businesses and hence doing corruption. That is a separate debate. I will be happy to provide insights on that if asked.

Your use of "luxurious facilities" as proof of corruption is flawed. "Luxurious" can be subjective. Being an AF brat, I can tell you most military facilities are very spartan.

Does corruption happen in the military - yes. Is the military some sort of corrupt behemoth that wants to pilfer each rupee from the people of Pakistan -- I don't think so.

Let's be objective, did Pak Army take over $70 Bil in foreign loans between 2009-2018 and stuff them in their offshore account and properties in London/Paris/Dubai?

Did the military stop the so called democratic governments from improving the economy in the past 10 years? Military may have control over foreign policy, but they did not interfere in government initiating tax reforms to expand tax net, land reforms, building dams.

Influence of military in Pak politics is a separate debate to be had, but there is no arguing that Pak Military aka "the establishment" has a big influence.

But the example of turkey is exactly how it needs to be. Uptil early 90s, Turkish military would unceremoniously dismiss Turkish elected governments. They even vetted and approved candidates that were deemed desirable to run in election let alone get elected.
Erdogan started off as mayor of Istanbul. He delivered results that people saw. He didn't antagonize the military. AKP came into power, built Turkish economy into a power house, slowly started to curb military role in the government over 20 years (even convicted a few generals of previous coups!). Now the Turkish military has minimal involvement. The last coup failed miserable. People laid down in front of tanks. Do you expect PML-N supporters to do the same on the streets of Lahore?

The example you brought in of Turkey is exactly how

So your point is that carruption of military is minimal compared to Pak democratic leaders and if I am comparing the carruption of the whole army in 1 year to the corruption of zardari while in gov who do you think will be making more money

 

[pakistanisgreat]

Plus where did that money go when we had earthquake back in 2005 i believe?

 

[cric_man]

the question is how army getting all these weapons and they are testing missiles every other month? where that money coming from? To my understanding that recent loan from IMF has gone to Army.

Please provide proof of IMF loan going to the Army. When PTI government took over, we did not even have money to debt service our loans let alone do anything else. IMF had put strict restriction and the money (mere 6B is monitored).

Second my uncle got paid 750 million back in 2006 by musharraf just doing a work in sindh. My uncle was Maj General at that time. just imagine how much people got paid who were under him working and how much other people got paid who were above him.

750M rupees or USD? was your uncle deputed to a civilian org or commanding a military unit?

 

[Knight_Rider]

Can you provide proof that the military "loots" majority of the wealth?

According to Index Mundi, Pakistan's military budget for 2018 was 4.03% of the GDP (includes both acquisiotn expenses & operational expenses). This is still high (it should not be over 2.5%) but we live in a very "hot" neighborhood. It is however not 30-40-50% that is quoted by the like of Ayesha Siddiqa or any other anti-pak lib brigade. See link :https://www.indexmundi.com/facts/pakistan/indicator/MS.MIL.XPND.GD.ZS

People do bring in Fauji Foundation/Shaheen Foundation as "proof" of military running businesses and hence doing corruption. That is a separate debate. I will be happy to provide insights on that if asked.

Your use of "luxurious facilities" as proof of corruption is flawed. "Luxurious" can be subjective. Being an AF brat, I can tell you most military facilities are very spartan.

Does corruption happen in the military - yes. Is the military some sort of corrupt behemoth that wants to pilfer each rupee from the people of Pakistan -- I don't think so.

Let's be objective, did Pak Army take over $70 Bil in foreign loans between 2009-2018 and stuff them in their offshore account and properties in London/Paris/Dubai?

Did the military stop the so called democratic governments from improving the economy in the past 10 years? Military may have control over foreign policy, but they did not interfere in government initiating tax reforms to expand tax net, land reforms, building dams.

Influence of military in Pak politics is a separate debate to be had, but there is no arguing that Pak Military aka "the establishment" has a big influence.

But the example of turkey is exactly how it needs to be. Uptil early 90s, Turkish military would unceremoniously dismiss Turkish elected governments. They even vetted and approved candidates that were deemed desirable to run in election let alone get elected.
Erdogan started off as mayor of Istanbul. He delivered results that people saw. He didn't antagonize the military. AKP came into power, built Turkish economy into a power house, slowly started to curb military role in the government over 20 years (even convicted a few generals of previous coups!). Now the Turkish military has minimal involvement. The last coup failed miserable. People laid down in front of tanks. Do you expect PML-N supporters to do the same on the streets of Lahore?

The example you brought in of Turkey is exactly how

Do you really need examples?

- Pak army lost most of the full scale wars it fought against another army. Thats what their main job is.
- Still they have Fizaia and Bahria type housing socities everywhere in the country.
- They are also operational in many more commercial ventures from cement making to Cereals. The long list is available widely on the internet.
- Kick backs and commissions on the purchases of submarines and other military equipment
- A normal army officer can easily retire by his late 30s/ 40s and is provided with generous pension + a sizeable House in a good location. Who’s paying for that?
- Generals like Raheel Sharif were ‘gifted’ prime canal side land in Lahore. Who paid for that?
- Last year i was in Abbotabad and drove past Kakul academy, the lavish gardens and residential halls were something totally different from whats available to ordinary Pakistanis.
- In most important Posts in country (from Finance Ministry to PIA’s CEO) all you find are retired army generals.

Do you want more?

 

[Bewal Express]

You continue to deflect. Can you answer my question?

Why was Hafeez Sheikh quiet when Zardari taking billions out of the country? What sort of finance minister was he?

Why didn’t Imran consider his facilitation of corruption before appointing him as his advisor? Is this how he is going to end corruption in Pakistan?

Anyway, I will answer the Bilawal question. At the end of the day, Zardari is his father and PPP is his family party. He cannot betray his father or desert his party because of family corruption.

Now can you answer why Hafeez Sheikh was quiet when Zardari was looting the country? Please don’t tell me he didn’t know. I am sure even you are smart enough to not buy that excuse.

And you continue to deflect. What kind of idiot comes up with this stupid phrase about the corrupt being competent but can't actually tell us a single corrupt person who is competent. Why don't you answer this simple question. Someone else asked the same question earlier and I told him that I have asked the same question many times. Billo like daddy is corrupt but can you tell us any achievements in Sindh in the last 12 years , SS turned a 100bn surplus left by Pervaiz Elahi into a 2 trillion deficit, can you tell us why. These crooked parties triples PK Foreign debt, tell us what we got from these crooks. Why do you run from these simple questions, be a man and stop hiding

 

[cric_man]

Plus where did that money go when we had earthquake back in 2005 i believe?

Which money? Donations collected from ordinary people?

I know PAF's order for 36 F-16 blk52 was cut down to 18 due to lack of funds after the earthquake since military's acquisition funds were diverted for rescue & recovery, re-construction done by the military.

 

[cric_man]

So your point is that carruption of military is minimal compared to Pak democratic leaders and if I am comparing the carruption of the whole army in 1 year to the corruption of zardari while in gov who do you think will be making more money

I don't get what you are trying to say? Are you saying military has pilfered from the state treasury more than Zardari? if so, please provide proof.

 

[Knight_Rider]

Please provide proof of IMF loan going to the Army. When PTI government took over, we did not even have money to debt service our loans let alone do anything else. IMF had put strict restriction and the money (mere 6B is monitored).


750M rupees or USD? was your uncle deputed to a civilian org or commanding a military unit?

So the ordinary pakistani is living hand to mouth. Inflation has gone over the roof. Ordinary mazdoors are comitting suicides.

Yet no cut in facilities provided to Army or the number of Military personnel?
Now since we have the Nuclear arsenal and a large scale conventional warfare is very unlikely, why do we need such a drain on our resources. We can use the money on normal pakistanis.

 

[pakistanisgreat]

Which money? Donations collected from ordinary people?

I know PAF's order for 36 F-16 blk52 was cut down to 18 due to lack of funds after the earthquake since military's acquisition funds were diverted for rescue & recovery, re-construction done by the military.

Would love to see that if you have any proof or pictures.

 

[pakistanisgreat]

Please provide proof of IMF loan going to the Army. When PTI government took over, we did not even have money to debt service our loans let alone do anything else. IMF had put strict restriction and the money (mere 6B is monitored).


750M rupees or USD? was your uncle deputed to a civilian org or commanding a military unit?

it was rupees. he was in military unit. Why would he get that much money beside his monthly salary? How much others has taken? this money belongs to who? army or pakistan?

 

[cric_man]

Do you really need examples?

- Pak army lost most of the full scale wars it fought against another army. Thats what their main job is.
- Still they have Fizaia and Bahria type housing socities everywhere in the country.
- They are also operational in many more commercial ventures from cement making to Cereals. The long list is available widely on the internet.
- Kick backs and commissions on the purchases of submarines and other military equipment
- A normal army officer can easily retire by his late 30s/ 40s and is provided with generous pension + a sizeable House in a good location. Who’s paying for that?
- Generals like Raheel Sharif were ‘gifted’ prime canal side land in Lahore. Who paid for that?
- Last year i was in Abbotabad and drove past Kakul academy, the lavish gardens and residential halls were something totally different from whats available to ordinary Pakistanis.
- In most important Posts in country (from Finance Ministry to PIA’s CEO) all you find are retired army generals.

Do you want more?

Again all anecdotal and blanket statements.

Army lost the wars (subjective) , so we should abolish the military and have a hostile neighbour destroy you?

I have written about ventures of Fauji/Shaheen/Bahria foundations and their impact in the past. Will find and repost.

Kakul Academy being lavish again subjective. It serves a purpose. Expenses come out of military budget.
You should look at the Governor Houses in Lahore, Karachi etc just to name a few so see how Lavish they are. Or Punjab House in Murree renovated for Mian saheb.

I have never said, corruption does not happen in the Military. I am arguing that military is not solely responsible for the woes of our country.
Adm Mansoor ul Haq was convicted of taking kickbacks (along with Zardari) for the Agosta submarines. He was extradited from Texas and arrested and monies recovered from him.
https://star.worldbank.org/corruption-cases/printpdf/18548

I get it, you have a bias against the military and will look at it from that lense. I was hoping for a more factual argument but it has all been anectodal.

 

[cric_man]

it was rupees. he was in military unit. Why would he get that much money beside his monthly salary? How much others has taken? this money belongs to who? army or pakistan?

Unless you have some sort of proof, It seems illogical. Was he ISI? and was given some sorta slush fund for something? That has happened (Mehran Bank scandal). You need to provide more context.

 

[pakistanisgreat]

Unless you have some sort of proof, It seems illogical. Was he ISI? and was given some sorta slush fund for something? That has happened (Mehran Bank scandal). You need to provide more context.

i wish i could. this is not a place to do so. But that's the one of the stories in my family. I many more because half of my family members are in army.

 

[cric_man]

i wish i could. this is not a place to do so. But that's the one of the stories in my family. I many more because half of my family members are in army.

My father was in the AF (Air Cdre). My uncle was Army Aviation. I have 3 cousins currently active duty so I know a thing or 2 about the military.
There is always corruption esp supply units. NLC used to big source of dirty stuff. But 750 mil just given by Musharraf to a serving general just does not pass the smell test.

 

[cric_man]

Would love to see that if you have any proof or pictures.

I don't have any pictures handy per se. If there is anyone here from Balakot/Mazaffarabad area, would love to get your feedback.

 

[Knight_Rider]

Again all anecdotal and blanket statements.

Army lost the wars (subjective) , so we should abolish the military and have a hostile neighbour destroy you?

I have written about ventures of Fauji/Shaheen/Bahria foundations and their impact in the past. Will find and repost.

Kakul Academy being lavish again subjective. It serves a purpose. Expenses come out of military budget.
You should look at the Governor Houses in Lahore, Karachi etc just to name a few so see how Lavish they are. Or Punjab House in Murree renovated for Mian saheb.

I have never said, corruption does not happen in the Military. I am arguing that military is not solely responsible for the woes of our country.
Adm Mansoor ul Haq was convicted of taking kickbacks (along with Zardari) for the Agosta submarines. He was extradited from Texas and arrested and monies recovered from him.
https://star.worldbank.org/corruption-cases/printpdf/18548

I get it, you have a bias against the military and will look at it from that lense. I was hoping for a more factual argument but it has all been anectodal.

No, its not anectodal. I gave you straight examples of the ‘luxuries’ afforded by army and compared them with the ordinary civilian Pakistani. Not everyone has the courage to own up and accept the unfair situation, esp when they are the beneficiary like yourself.

The civilian governments have just been hand picked by Army, as long as they served their purpose. This is the biggest hurdle in creating a prosperous and free Pakistan. How long can it go on for?

 

[pakistanisgreat]

My father was in the AF (Air Cdre). My uncle was Army Aviation. I have 3 cousins currently active duty so I know a thing or 2 about the military.
There is always corruption esp supply units. NLC used to big source of dirty stuff. But 750 mil just given by Musharraf to a serving general just does not pass the smell test.

trust me i did not believe when i first heard. When i spoke to him in person he admitted it. He is my Mamo. There is much going on upper level we can not even imagine.

 

[cric_man]

No, its not anectodal. I gave you straight examples of the ‘luxuries’ afforded by army and compared them with the ordinary civilian Pakistani. Not everyone has the courage to own up and accept the unfair situation, esp when they are the beneficiary like yourself.

The civilian governments have just been hand picked by Army, as long as they served their purpose. This is the biggest hurdle in creating a prosperous and free Pakistan. How long can it go on for?

If that is the case, why doesn't the populance come out and protest, lay down in front of the tanks??

 

[Knight_Rider]

Tyranny only last for certain amount of time. Sooner or later it will come down to this.

Now a days people are getting more aware and better informed, so these hired politicians cant be used to fool the public for too long.

 

[cric_man]

Tyranny only last for certain amount of time. Sooner or later it will come down to this.

Now a days people are getting more aware and better informed, so these hired politicians cant be used to fool the public for too long.

Amen to that. Let our people become more aware and knowledgeable that they can make informed decisions that impact their future generations.

 

[Mamoon]

And you continue to deflect. What kind of idiot comes up with this stupid phrase about the corrupt being competent but can't actually tell us a single corrupt person who is competent. Why don't you answer this simple question. Someone else asked the same question earlier and I told him that I have asked the same question many times. Billo like daddy is corrupt but can you tell us any achievements in Sindh in the last 12 years , SS turned a 100bn surplus left by Pervaiz Elahi into a 2 trillion deficit, can you tell us why. These crooked parties triples PK Foreign debt, tell us what we got from these crooks. Why do you run from these simple questions, be a man and stop hiding

Why was Hafeez Sheikh quiet when Zardari was looting billions out of the country? What sort of finance minister was he?

Was he unaware or was he complicit? Why did Imran forego this fact when appointing him as his advisor?

 

[uberkoen]

Why was Hafeez Sheikh quiet when Zardari was looting billions out of the country? What sort of finance minister was he?

Was he unaware or was he complicit? Why did Imran forego this fact when appointing him as his advisor?

What about the link between Makhdoom Khusro Bakhtiar and Jehangir Tareen. Was Imran Khan not aware of the link between the two or chose to turn a blind eye to this and appoint him as Minister of National Food Security and Research allowing both to profit?

What about Supreme Court calling Railways the most corrupt institution of Pakistan. Was Imran Khan not aware of Shiekh Rasheed's previous tenure's as Railway Minister and the going on's during that time?

Why is no action being taken on the Malam Jabba case and the BRT case? Nothing on Ghazanfar Abbas Cheena. No one from Musharaff's era being investigated.

 

[Mamoon]

What about the link between Makhdoom Khusro Bakhtiar and Jehangir Tareen. Was Imran Khan not aware of the link between the two or chose to turn a blind eye to this and appoint him as Minister of National Food Security and Research allowing both to profit?

What about Supreme Court calling Railways the most corrupt institution of Pakistan. Was Imran Khan not aware of Shiekh Rasheed's previous tenure's as Railway Minister and the going on's during that time?

Why is no action being taken on the Malam Jabba case and the BRT case? Nothing on Ghazanfar Abbas Cheena. No one from Musharaff's era being investigated.

You won’t get an answer to this. Expect deflection on the lines of current account deficit.

 

[Bewal Express]

Why was Hafeez Sheikh quiet when Zardari was looting billions out of the country? What sort of finance minister was he?

Was he unaware or was he complicit? Why did Imran forego this fact when appointing him as his advisor?

You jabber on all day about the competent corrupt, so name names. Another humiliation because once again you are running.

 

[Mamoon]

You jabber on all day about the competent corrupt, so name names. Another humiliation because once again you are running.

They are none because we have not focused on building competencies. Political parties are not allowed any breathing space because of military interference.

That is why we need to focus on competency and not corruption and get the military out of politics. That is the only solution for Pakistan’s long-term prosperity.

Now can we get back to Hafeez Sheikh. I know you worship Imran and you don’t have the guts to call spade a spade, but I will ask you once again:

Why was Hafeez Sheikh quiet when Zardari was looting billions and buying properties abroad?

Was he complicit and thus “beneficiary of corruption” (your favorite slogan) or was he clueless and ignorant (which is even worse)?

I know you will deflect the question again and run, but I am still hoping you will finally give a straight answer.

 

[uberkoen]

You jabber on all day about the competent corrupt, so name names. Another humiliation because once again you are running.

You're like the king of deflection. Always trying to side line discussions with meaningless questions.

Why don't you step out of your PTI fandomship for once and assess everything with a neutral perspective only then will you be able to have an educated and informed discussion. Right now all I see you doing on every thread is deflecting the discussion and not commenting on the topic being addressed.

 

[Bewal Express]

You're like the king of deflection. Always trying to side line discussions with meaningless questions.

Why don't you step out of your PTI fandomship for once and assess everything with a neutral perspective only then will you be able to have an educated and informed discussion. Right now all I see you doing on every thread is deflecting the discussion and not commenting on the topic being addressed.

Its meaningless to Nooras because i have nailed you on a number of occasions- remember MR and the links with the Sharifs? And if someone says the corrupt are competent, then they must have 1000s of examples because we have had looting on a mass scale. So name Names!