Countdown: Pakistan winning a series against a top ODI side - Last won in 2013, 4 years ago!

[Hawkeye]

Here's a shocker.

Pakistan last won a series against a top ODI side in November 2013. That was one historic win - against South Africa, in South Africa.

However, after that, Pakistan has not been able to win a SINGLE series against the top 5 sides:

- England
- Australia
- New Zealand
- India
- South Africa

We've only won against Sri Lanka, West Indies, Zimbabwe, Ireland -- where players like Malik and Hafeez have feasted, inflating their averages.

Both our last wins against top ODI sides were *away*, in India and South Africa.



Here's the list:

...............

If you think only Sarfraz or changing captains can solve this mess, you're deluded.

There's only one solution to this: introduce players who can play the modern game.

CRACKDOWN hard on players who just accumulate and cannot accelerate. You cannot have more than 2 strike rotators. They too should be dynamic like Babar Azam.

 

[Pete Rose]

There will be plenty of
'They were vital in the few successes we did have against top competition'
'We have to be practical there are no replacements'
Etc etc in this thread.

 

[SarfiBabarHaris]

Here's a shocker.

Pakistan last won a series against a top ODI side in November 2013. That was one historic win - against South Africa, in South Africa.

However, after that, Pakistan has not been able to win a SINGLE series against the top 5 sides:

- England
- Australia
- New Zealand
- India
- South Africa

We've only won against Sri Lanka, West Indies, Zimbabwe, Ireland -- where players like Malik and Hafeez have feasted, inflating their averages.

Both our last wins against top ODI sides were *away*, in India and South Africa.



Here's the list:

...............

If you think only Sarfraz or changing captains can solve this mess, you're deluded.

There's only one solution to this: introduce players who can play the modern game.

CRACKDOWN hard on players who just accumulate and cannot accelerate. You cannot have more than 2 strike rotators. They too should be dynamic like Babar Azam.

Making Sarfraz captain wont solve this mess but a step in right direction.
Who do you think should be odi captain of Pakistan btw?

And yes I agee that we need more dynamic batsmen as I think our bowling is shaping nicely. May be try Umar Akmal as an opener and give him license to play aerial shots.

 

[Varun]

Why aren't Sri Lanka or New Zealand considered top sides?

 

[Hawkeye]

Why aren't Sri Lanka or New Zealand considered top sides?

Sri Lanka is no better than West Indies.

New Zealand is a good side, who said they aren't? We haven't won against them whenever we played them in these years. They beat us 3 times in 3 series.

 

[Hamza_]

Why aren't Sri Lanka or New Zealand considered top sides?

In NZ, Hafeez was our top performer with Babar Azam, Don't know what OP is trying to say.

Malik was vital to success in wins against England and Australia.

 

[Hawkeye]

In NZ, Hafeez was our top performer with Babar Azam, Don't know what OP is trying to say.

Malik was vital to success in wins against England and Australia.

You cannot single out one or two performances out of a large sample, where we've been a constant failure for 4+ years, losing series after series against any decent side.

You're just repeating what [MENTION=107807]Pete Rose[/MENTION] above predicted.

 

[Hawkeye]

There will be plenty of
'They were vital in the few successes we did have against top competition'
'We have to be practical there are no replacements'
Etc etc in this thread.

We have our first above.

Your prediction was spot on. Pak cricket going nowhere until people take their heads out of sand.

 

[SarfiBabarHaris]

lol just throwing random statements that we are going nowhere wont help.

At least give some solutions/suggestions/names. Is 35 year old Kamran the solution who is good for 30/40s thats why an avg of 26?

 

[Hamza_]

lol just throwing random statements that we are going nowhere wont help.

At least give some solutions/suggestions/names. Is 35 year old Kamran the solution who is good for 30/40s thats why an avg of 26?

Kami needs infinite chances. I want Hafeez out of the team, But Shezzy and Kami should go as well

 

[silentkiller187]

Instead of coming with problems how about coming out with solutions.what batsmen do we have that will score consistently against aus india or england. Which players are waiting in line to come in and grab their chance, we've seen the PSL no standout batting performances at all, we cant just wave a magic stick and throw in 2 3 youngsters who will change things around. Its a shame to say but pakistan are just not good enough to compete with these teams at the moment

 

[Pete Rose]

Instead of coming with problems how about coming out with solutions.what batsmen do we have that will score consistently against aus india or england. Which players are waiting in line to come in and grab their chance, we've seen the PSL no standout batting performances at all, we cant just wave a magic stick and throw in 2 3 youngsters who will change things around. Its a shame to say but pakistan are just not good enough to compete with these teams at the moment

The answer to these problems can never be, lets do more of the same with the mediocre lot we have.

I mean how much longer do you need to see hafeez, malik, akmal to play to realize the future with them will be no different than what they have done in the last decade.

 

[Pakpak]

Here's a shocker.

Pakistan last won a series against a top ODI side in November 2013. That was one historic win - against South Africa, in South Africa.

However, after that, Pakistan has not been able to win a SINGLE series against the top 5 sides:

- England
- Australia
- New Zealand
- India
- South Africa

We've only won against Sri Lanka, West Indies, Zimbabwe, Ireland -- where players like Malik and Hafeez have feasted, inflating their averages.

Both our last wins against top ODI sides were *away*, in India and South Africa.



Here's the list:

...............

If you think only Sarfraz or changing captains can solve this mess, you're deluded.

There's only one solution to this: introduce players who can play the modern game.

CRACKDOWN hard on players who just accumulate and cannot accelerate. You cannot have more than 2 strike rotators. They too should be dynamic like Babar Azam.

No point repeating the mantra about 'modern' players if you're going to support Kamran. A guy who's dot ball percentage is 75-90% per innings. That is anything but modern, from a 35 year old with decade of experience its downright pathetic.

 

[Arsalan Pro]

We will win the CT.

 

[Hawkeye]

Making Sarfraz captain wont solve this mess but a step in right direction.
Who do you think should be odi captain of Pakistan btw?

And yes I agee that we need more dynamic batsmen as I think our bowling is shaping nicely. May be try Umar Akmal as an opener and give him license to play aerial shots.

I'm not saying kick out Sarfraz. Just that he's not the solution. Captaincy isn't the solution.

Players are.

No point repeating the mantra about 'modern' players if you're going to support Kamran. A guy who's dot ball percentage is 75-90% per innings. That is anything but modern, from a 35 year old with decade of experience its downright pathetic.

Kami isn't great, he's just better than competition.

His competitor Ahmed Shehzad had a strike rate of 66 in this ODI series.

Kamran has a strike rate of 90.

You want to go back to Azhar Ali as an opener, or Masood, I don't. Use logic.

 

[Pakpak]

I'm not saying kick out Sarfraz. Just that he's not the solution. Captaincy isn't the solution.

Players are.



Kami isn't great, he's just better than competition.

His competitor Ahmed Shehzad had a strike rate of 66 in this ODI series.

Kamran has a strike rate of 90.

You want to go back to Azhar Ali as an opener, or Masood, I don't. Use logic.

I am against Azhar and Masood more than Kamran. You used the insanity quote ie do same thing again and again is insane and then you back Kamran. Strike rate is useless if you will not rotate strike or take singles, which IS what modern bats do. Otherwise people like Hafeez, who you criticise, are king of strike rates.

I'd rather play unknown hacks. At best they will fare well, at worse fail like Kamran. So nothing to lose really.

 

[Syed1]

I wonder who was captain during all that time. Can't seem to wrap my head around it

 

[Bilal7]

2012-2013 was a good year. Beat India in India and South Africa in South Africa. This happened because we played to our strengths and ensured that our best bowlers (Ajmal, Junaid, Irfan and perhaps Gul) played every match and bits and pieces all-rounders were not played in order to elongate the batting.

We need to do the same now and pick our best bowlers and best batsman and leave bowlers who can bat, out of the team. Not talking about Imad Wasim, who is a very useful player but rather the likes of Sohail Khan who is being touted for a comeback.

 

[phoenix363]

I'm not saying kick out Sarfraz. Just that he's not the solution. Captaincy isn't the solution.

Players are.



Kami isn't great, he's just better than competition.

His competitor Ahmed Shehzad had a strike rate of 66 in this ODI series.

Kamran has a strike rate of 90.

You want to go back to Azhar Ali as an opener, or Masood, I don't. Use logic.

In the other thread you said he was great and I called you out on it and you ignored me. Kamran has a strike rate of 90..but an average of early 20s. I know you aren't 'interested in history' so I mean he averages that much in this series.

I am sure Awais Zia given that many chances could average 20 against West Indies at a much higher strike rate, never mind the actual promising players like Talat, Saad, Fakhar, Mukhtar. Yet Kami beat Shehzad so he is better than the competition...

But ofcourse you will like always have no reply. Mentality like yours is unfortunately shared by many people in the management and our current Chief Selector which is why we have not won a series against a top side.

 

[BD-fan]

...

There's only one solution to this: introduce players who can play the modern game.

CRACKDOWN hard on players who just accumulate and cannot accelerate. You cannot have more than 2 strike rotators. They too should be dynamic like Babar Azam.

This is not the solution because your domestic structure doesn't promote that. Most boundary seekers can't take the singles. That is a mental block should be fixed in the domestic circuit. Modern game is not practiced there. Fix that first.

Plus growing pain. What I mean is: You will be the first one to call for the heads of the coaches, selectors, and players when the results are not your way with the NEW players. It takes time to gel. They need experience before they can explode. These types of players will win big against a big team and then lose one against a lesser team. That is what growing pain is. I know that already first hand. You have to have patience.

And I have not seen very many patient Pakistanis in this board. That is not in your vocabulary.

This type of wholesale change has been done after every WC in recent past.

 

[CricFan2012]

Discredit that win, Ajmal and Hafeez were huge contributors and were chucking.

 

[hitthestump]

It's not just the captaincy, nor the approach, it's just one of those eras where there's no talent in Pakistan. Tbh the generation before us we were spoiled and on reflection they never made the most of it. The talent will return one day.

 

[dildildalwalla]

I'm confused as to who these fans are who make negative threads about Pakistan every time Pak win or break a record.

 

[Nil Dhumrojal]

Why aren't Sri Lanka or New Zealand considered top sides?

And op also omitted Bangladesh too...

 

[Nil Dhumrojal]

Why aren't Sri Lanka or New Zealand considered top sides?

Superiority complex..real world is different in odi

 

[Square Drive]

We'll win the next time we play one.

 

[Hawkeye]

I am against Azhar and Masood more than Kamran. You used the insanity quote ie do same thing again and again is insane and then you back Kamran. Strike rate is useless if you will not rotate strike or take singles, which IS what modern bats do. Otherwise people like Hafeez, who you criticise, are king of strike rates.

I'd rather play unknown hacks. At best they will fare well, at worse fail like Kamran. So nothing to lose really.

Who are the unknown hacks? You're just blindly shooting words without knowing what you want.

I'm all in for trying aggressive players, but your hypocrisy becomes clear when you end up supporting Fawad Alam or his clones.

I have a simple logic: We need players who can score fast, accelerate fast, and do this all against pace bowling. Not spin and minnow bashers.

Sharjeel was our great striker with a high dot ball percentage. He's the IDEAL bat. Forget strike rotation rubbish.

I want Sharjeel types, even if they play a lot more dot balls.

Learn to embrace the modern cricket.

 

[Hawkeye]

In the other thread you said he was great and I called you out on it and you ignored me. Kamran has a strike rate of 90..but an average of early 20s. I know you aren't 'interested in history' so I mean he averages that much in this series.

I am sure Awais Zia given that many chances could average 20 against West Indies at a much higher strike rate, never mind the actual promising players like Talat, Saad, Fakhar, Mukhtar. Yet Kami beat Shehzad so he is better than the competition...

But ofcourse you will like always have no reply. Mentality like yours is unfortunately shared by many people in the management and our current Chief Selector which is why we have not won a series against a top side.

Of course, 22 average is not great, but again, he's better than Ahmed Shehzad who averaged the same 20s with 66 strike rate.

While Kami did at 90 strike rate. See the reality?

We do need aggressive openers, who can play pace. Mukhtar, and others who truly can be good should be tried and Shehzad should be kicked out.

The reason you don't get much response from me is because you don't know what you're saying. Talat is a great prospect but he's not an opener. Should be in the team replacing other accumulators in the middle order.

The reality of who really is "aggressive" will be shown to you in the Champions Trophy. Annihilating West Indies or Zimbabwe don't mean anything.

 

[phoenix363]

Of course, 22 average is not great, but again, he's better than Ahmed Shehzad who averaged the same 20s with 66 strike rate.

While Kami did at 90 strike rate. See the reality?

We do need aggressive openers, who can play pace. Mukhtar, and others who truly can be good should be tried and Shehzad should be kicked out.

The reason you don't get much response from me is because you don't know what you're saying. Talat is a great prospect but he's not an opener. Should be in the team replacing other accumulators in the middle order.

The reality of who really is "aggressive" will be shown to you in the Champions Trophy. Annihilating West Indies or Zimbabwe don't mean anything.

You can't use Shehzad's terrible performance as an excuse to keep Kamran in. In another thread I even said, Shehzad was considerably worse than Kamran, not just for the lack of runs but by the selfiesh nature of his innings. Which at least Kamran didn't do.

Having said that, why must one of them remain? If they both don't perform, they should both be dropped.

I don't know what I am saying? It seems to be you are struggling to string together your incoherent replies which seem to have no basis in logic. Quite frankly I am surprised you replied after being owned like this, everytime I reply to you, I fully expect you to ignore it as you have no answer.

Talat has in fact opened plenty of times in domestic, in fact he played a great innings opening with Sharjeel. Which accumulators should he replace exactly? Babar, Malik and Sarfaraz? Who have all been nothing short of world class in the last few years? However I am sure you will pick faults in their performance and rate Kamran as better.

The only other person then is Hafeez, who despite being completely over the hill and out of form, performed well in this series and should be made to open.

Annihilating West Indies or Zimbabwe might not mean anything, but Kamran struggled to do even that so lets hope he is never given the chance against better opposition.

 

[Pakpak]

Who are the unknown hacks? You're just blindly shooting words without knowing what you want.

I'm all in for trying aggressive players, but your hypocrisy becomes clear when you end up supporting Fawad Alam or his clones.

I have a simple logic: We need players who can score fast, accelerate fast, and do this all against pace bowling. Not spin and minnow bashers.

Sharjeel was our great striker with a high dot ball percentage. He's the IDEAL bat. Forget strike rotation rubbish.

I want Sharjeel types, even if they play a lot more dot balls.

Learn to embrace the modern cricket.

Zia is one, who's never given the chance. Kamran averages 22 against the top teams, how worse can he do?I don't support Alam or anyone else, otherwise bring out a post saying I do so. Why do you also bring Shehzad in? Just because another failure is failing it is also okay for Kamran to do so?

Modern cricket, do you even know the meaning of modern cricket? One of the first few things you don't know the meaning off and you're shooting your mouth off. Let me educate you. This is modern cricket:

110221 141111

This is your version of modern cricket and what Kamran and Shehzad and our team plays out:

000400 000060

Hence why we are stuck at the bottom of every scoring barrel, why we cannot chase, why we cannot put pressure on any team why our score is made at an average of 4 till the end overs, why we cannot raise our runrate despite scoring a boundary regularly.

The second thing you don't know the meaning off is ''minnow bashing''. If you take out minnows then Kamran averages a beastly 22 against all teams.

I don't understand you. You:

a) criticise minnow bashers
b) criticise players who don't play 'modern cricket'
c) and repeat the mantra of ''doing the same thing again and again is insanity''

And Kamran fufills all those criteria. He is a certified basher, he's failed this series against WI and his atrocious return rate shows he's far from the 'modern' batsman and he's a certified failure yet you still support him.

Instead of telling me to embrace modern cricket, you should embrace common sense.

 

[Pakpak]

You can't use Shehzad's terrible performance as an excuse to keep Kamran in. In another thread I even said, Shehzad was considerably worse than Kamran, not just for the lack of runs but by the selfiesh nature of his innings. Which at least Kamran didn't do.

Having said that, why must one of them remain? If they both don't perform, they should both be dropped.

I don't know what I am saying? It seems to be you are struggling to string together your incoherent replies which seem to have no basis in logic. Quite frankly I am surprised you replied after being owned like this, everytime I reply to you, I fully expect you to ignore it as you have no answer.

Talat has in fact opened plenty of times in domestic, in fact he played a great innings opening with Sharjeel. Which accumulators should he replace exactly? Babar, Malik and Sarfaraz? Who have all been nothing short of world class in the last few years? However I am sure you will pick faults in their performance and rate Kamran as better.

The only other person then is Hafeez, who despite being completely over the hill and out of form, performed well in this series and should be made to open.

Annihilating West Indies or Zimbabwe might not mean anything, but Kamran struggled to do even that so lets hope he is never given the chance against better opposition.

You're wasting your breath. Bringing Shehzad in a discussion is a waste of time yet he does that. He's as bad if not worse than Kamran, his only saving grace is he is only 24 so he still has a chance to save his career. But just because he is bad does not excuse a 200 ODI-experience player to be as bad either. Whoever plays bad deserves to be axed, the notion that ''atleast Kami is doing better than Shehzad'' doesn't make sense.

 

[Pakpak]

Of course, 22 average is not great, but again, he's better than Ahmed Shehzad who averaged the same 20s with 66 strike rate.

While Kami did at 90 strike rate. See the reality?

We do need aggressive openers, who can play pace. Mukhtar, and others who truly can be good should be tried and Shehzad should be kicked out.

The reason you don't get much response from me is because you don't know what you're saying. Talat is a great prospect but he's not an opener. Should be in the team replacing other accumulators in the middle order.

The reality of who really is "aggressive" will be shown to you in the Champions Trophy. Annihilating West Indies or Zimbabwe don't mean anything.

And we finally agree, yes, Mukhtar should be tried. For some reason he was dropped.

 

[Hawkeye]

And Kamran fufills all those criteria. He is a certified basher, he's failed this series against WI and his atrocious return rate shows he's far from the 'modern' batsman and he's a certified failure yet you still support him.

Instead of telling me to embrace modern cricket, you should embrace common sense.

I've said it in the past - judge Kami when he fails against the top sides.

It's his comeback, so you cannot drop him. He has come off against top performances against pace bowling. And if he can replicate that in the CT or other series against top 5 sides, we need him.

His test hasn't come, you hate him for his past, so cut it. Let his chance come after his comeback.

 

[Pakpak]

I've said it in the past - judge Kami when he fails against the top sides.

It's his comeback, so you cannot drop him. He has come off against top performances against pace bowling. And if he can replicate that in the CT or other series against top 5 sides, we need him.

His test hasn't come, you hate him for his past, so cut it. Let his chance come after his comeback.

If he's failing against a border-line minnow and has a top average of 22 (the lowest out of our team btw) against better sides then I don't have much hope against the top sides.

 

[Hawkeye]

If he's failing against a border-line minnow and has a top average of 22 (the lowest out of our team btw) against better sides then I don't have much hope against the top sides.

I don't mind if you don't have any hope.

But the fair thing is to test him in a full series at least against a good side, on good tracks against pace bowlers.

Don't hate him for his past. Judge him after his comeback once we've played some matches on good surfaces.

 

[Pakpak]

I don't mind if you don't have any hope.

But the fair thing is to test him in a full series at least against a good side, on good tracks against pace bowlers.

Don't hate him for his past. Judge him after his comeback once we've played some matches on good surfaces.

I am not 'hating' on anyone, my support is for my team and my country. If someone scores I will remain happy. But history has proved me right and you wrong. Nothing would delight me if he goes on a good run and we win or do well in CT but his numbers, and countless occasions in the past, show the chances of that are low.