Countdown to Indian attack on Pakistan

[IAJ]

If you like it or not, there will be an attack on pakistani soil. Why will it happen?

Well Modi has no other option, he has said there will be a reply and he can not run away now. He needs to prove a point so he can be elected again and their film industry badly needs an attack.

Most likely they will find an easy target, could be a vacant area, field what ever, Modi just needs an excuse, but they will come for a short while and try to get out. They will probably succeed as well because Pakistan will be busy with defending the most sensitive places.

Maybe they kill a turtle or a bat but they will make a mountain out of this back home, and just wait for the reactions of the Indian PPers.

 

[KingKhanWC]

It will only be over the LOC if there is any aggressive attack.

Maybe Pak should cover the whole area with thousands of cows? It might save the lives of the turtles and bats.

 

[rhony]

There is a zero chance of India waging a military war against Pak. There is every chance of Indians changing their Kashmir policy forever. China and it's Uighur policy is a template

 

[ElRaja]

will be a bit awkward for india, the previous "surgical strikes" were carried out on the grounds of preventative action. india has made it clear it wants to send a message across, implicitly in retaliation for the supposed involvement of pakistan in the pulwama incident.

a cross border raid to harass a weakly fortified border post will be difficult to spin into equitable retribution.

im guessing given the proximity to the election, considerable sabre rattling followed by the small chance something awkward enough to generate a headline as per requirement but to be easy to bury in the election news cycle if required.

if i had to put my money on it, i think they do nothing as far as engaging Pakistan militarily.

 

[mustang]

It will only be over the LOC if there is any aggressive attack.

Maybe Pak should cover the whole area with thousands of cows? It might save the lives of the turtles and bats.

Man, this is making me think of a dark humored Monty Python type movie plot for this. Indians and Pakistanis lined up either side of LOC with medieval trebuchets. Indians load theirs with mutilated pigs and Pakistanis with mutilated cows and the war begins!! LOL

On a serious note - sh!t ain't gonna happen (I would be surprised if it does). Many of the conventional wars in this age are fought on the economic/diplomatic/policy front and only in rare cases in the military front. The more plausible situation would be India taking steps to alter demography in the long run as another poster indicated (working template from Chinese already exists).

 

[Pakistanian]

There is a zero chance of India waging a military war against Pak. There is every chance of Indians changing their Kashmir policy forever. China and it's Uighur policy is a template

So you're conceding that majority of Kashmiris don't want to be part of India?

 

[rhony]

So you're conceding that majority of Kashmiris don't want to be part of India?

What's there to concede. India doesn't want Kashmiris and Kashmiris don't want India. Both of them want Kashmir. India can just wait it out for a few generations or can make them irrelevant which they will be once 35a or 370 are abrogated.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Man, this is making me think of a dark humored Monty Python type movie plot for this. Indians and Pakistanis lined up either side of LOC with medieval trebuchets. Indians load theirs with mutilated pigs and Pakistanis with mutilated cows and the war begins!! LOL

On a serious note - sh!t ain't gonna happen (I would be surprised if it does). Many of the conventional wars in this age are fought on the economic/diplomatic/policy front and only in rare cases in the military front. The more plausible situation would be India taking steps to alter demography in the long run as another poster indicated (working template from Chinese already exists).

Pakistanis dont see Pigs as holy so will have no issue splitting Porky into a thousands pieces.

Pakistan and India are the only nuclear power nations in history to have a conventional war. 1999 was long time ago now and Pakistan was a new nuclear power. 20 years later Pakistan has more nukes than India and possibly even Israel. It's army is battle hardened having faced the biggest threat to a nation from proxy terrorists. Pakistan does not want war as it is climbing up the ladder of betterment but will not hold back at all if a war breaks out. Yes any sensible enemies will think war is foolish between two nuclear powers but these two countries think with their emtions. There will be a nuclear war one day, the bookies would make them favourites to be the first.

 

[mustang]

Pakistanis dont see Pigs as holy so will have no issue splitting Porky into a thousands pieces.

Pakistan and India are the only nuclear power nations in history to have a conventional war. 1999 was long time ago now and Pakistan was a new nuclear power. 20 years later Pakistan has more nukes than India and possibly even Israel. It's army is battle hardened having faced the biggest threat to a nation from proxy terrorists. Pakistan does not want war as it is climbing up the ladder of betterment but will not hold back at all if a war breaks out. Yes any sensible enemies will think war is foolish between two nuclear powers but these two countries think with their emtions. There will be a nuclear war one day, the bookies would make them favourites to be the first.

I think you missed the humor, it was basically 2 sides loading up with animals the other side loves/hates the most as arsenal.

Nuclear power or not, battle hardened or not, once you reach beyond a certain threshold of nuclear+military capability, wars are not directly fought in battlefields as evidenced from cold war. Soviet Union lost the cold war not due to lack of battle hardening or less nuclear arsenal or other military reasons. They simply could not keep up economically in the end.

Neither Pakistan nor India are like Taliban or ISIS or some other banana republic for a full fledged direct conflict to be a possibility - they are both serious powers in their own rights. If you are looking at theories of war, question you should ask is how much can Pakistan push when it comes to a protracted economic+diplomatic war (emphasis more on economic). You are correct in that both nations have evolved more since 1999 and that will actually work as a deterrent against conventional war per the famous MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) theory. So war between them has a higher chance of not being fought in direct battlefields. How strong is Pakistan's coffer, trade balance, economic might, industrial growth, demographic strength versus India's? If it is lacking now, can it at least catch up and outpace India's? Those are the right questions we should pose to envision a war scenario because I think the game has changed over the years.

 

[KingKhanWC]

I think you missed the humor, it was basically 2 sides loading up with animals the other side loves/hates the most as arsenal.

Nuclear power or not, battle hardened or not, once you reach beyond a certain threshold of nuclear+military capability, wars are not directly fought in battlefields as evidenced from cold war. Soviet Union lost the cold war not due to lack of battle hardening or less nuclear arsenal or other military reasons. They simply could not keep up economically in the end.

Neither Pakistan nor India are like Taliban or ISIS or some other banana republic for a full fledged direct conflict to be a possibility - they are both serious powers in their own rights. If you are looking at theories of war, question you should ask is how much can Pakistan push when it comes to a protracted economic+diplomatic war (emphasis more on economic). You are correct in that both nations have evolved more since 1999 and that will actually work as a deterrent against conventional war per the famous MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) theory. So war between them has a higher chance of not being fought in direct battlefields. How strong is Pakistan's coffer, trade balance, economic might, industrial growth, demographic strength versus India's? If it is lacking now, can it at least catch up and outpace India's? Those are the right questions we should pose to envision a war scenario because I think the game has changed over the years.

I dont think economics would play a huge role as it's very likely India will be the first to initiate any war, as we are hearing right now. Pakistan would be forced to defend itself and with India having better conventional military hardware, it wont take much for a war to get out of hand. We have to keep in mind these are Pakistani and Indians who can be very emotional people unlike the Soviets. Rich nations rarely go to war unless they are certain of victory, poor nations have less to lose. When a nation has been faced with a decade of bomb attacks via proxy ,the frustration of not seeing the enemy to target could come to surfrace in any war with India.

 

[Pakistanian]

What's there to concede. India doesn't want Kashmiris and Kashmiris don't want India. Both of them want Kashmir. India can just wait it out for a few generations or can make them irrelevant which they will be once 35a or 370 are abrogated.

You're literally advocating for genocide just for some land, this is disgusting.

 

[mustang]

I dont think economics would play a huge role as it's very likely India will be the first to initiate any war, as we are hearing right now. Pakistan would be forced to defend itself and with India having better conventional military hardware, it wont take much for a war to get out of hand. We have to keep in mind these are Pakistani and Indians who can be very emotional people unlike the Soviets. Rich nations rarely go to war unless they are certain of victory, poor nations have less to lose. When a nation has been faced with a decade of bomb attacks via proxy ,the frustration of not seeing the enemy to target could come to surfrace in any war with India.

Economics comes into play so long as it is not a conventional war. Your stance is that it will be a conventional war. My point is that it will not be, so we basically differ in terms of the type of war (conventional or non-conventional) but I think we can both agree that economics will come into play if it is not a conventional war.

I think the Indians have too much at stake now to risk it all for a conventional war. If anything Pakistan is the one very cornered with bad international reputation, lower diplomatic power, economy in shambles (and add all the external debt add on top of an asset already having a lower return), not having enough sophisticated industrial output (still way more commodity driven), and worst of all eroding knowledge capital (scariest of 'em all). But surprisingly and in a good way, Pakistan is showing enough restraint now in the face of saber rattling by India (maybe because they were not the ones who faced the attack+human losses, I'm not sure).

Going to India now, yeah they are making all the bombastic statements plus moving troops etc. But it could all be posturing to satisfy the masses or at best be a means to exert more control in Kashmir but not a direct aggressive move towards a nuclear armed enemy. India has too much at stake now to "risk it all" in one move. They have a fast growing economy, growing sophisticated industrial output, network of good education systems, decent maturity in their local financial markets, decent international perception ... do you think they will risk it all and go "All in" because they feel there is an invisible enemy?

Think about it - if you are India, do you risk it all and make a M-A-D nuclear move that destroys all the hard and soft progress you have made or will you take a leaf out of other plays (US victory in cold war combined with Chinese strategy in Tibet+Uighur) to stick to unconventional war for longer term? All the right wing rhetoric in India aside, it does not seem to be like a top heavy leadership (like Russia or Pakistan) where one top leader can have a huge say but it seems more like distributed leadership (like the US) when it comes to such decisions. So a strong right wing leader on top still does not mean India will risk it all.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Economics comes into play so long as it is not a conventional war. Your stance is that it will be a conventional war. My point is that it will not be, so we basically differ in terms of the type of war (conventional or non-conventional) but I think we can both agree that economics will come into play if it is not a conventional war.

I think the Indians have too much at stake now to risk it all for a conventional war. If anything Pakistan is the one very cornered with bad international reputation, lower diplomatic power, economy in shambles (and add all the external debt add on top of an asset already having a lower return), not having enough sophisticated industrial output (still way more commodity driven), and worst of all eroding knowledge capital (scariest of 'em all). But surprisingly and in a good way, Pakistan is showing enough restraint now in the face of saber rattling by India (maybe because they were not the ones who faced the attack+human losses, I'm not sure).

Going to India now, yeah they are making all the bombastic statements plus moving troops etc. But it could all be posturing to satisfy the masses or at best be a means to exert more control in Kashmir but not a direct aggressive move towards a nuclear armed enemy. India has too much at stake now to "risk it all" in one move. They have a fast growing economy, growing sophisticated industrial output, network of good education systems, decent maturity in their local financial markets, decent international perception ... do you think they will risk it all and go "All in" because they feel there is an invisible enemy?

Think about it - if you are India, do you risk it all and make a M-A-D nuclear move that destroys all the hard and soft progress you have made or will you take a leaf out of other plays (US victory in cold war combined with Chinese strategy in Tibet+Uighur) to stick to unconventional war for longer term? All the right wing rhetoric in India aside, it does not seem to be like a top heavy leadership (like Russia or Pakistan) where one top leader can have a huge say but it seems more like distributed leadership (like the US) when it comes to such decisions. So a strong right wing leader on top still does not mean India will risk it all.

I agree India has many voices but many of the strong voices are calling for military action. Even on this forum there are (Indian)posters who are saying Modi will be a nobody if he doesn't take action. I might be wrong but I think they believe a conventional war like Kargil will take place and India will come out on top because no sane person would want war if they know a nuclear war could develop. I have no idea what Indian plans are but yes I hope those sane voices are the loudest and we have a situation where they come up with another story of surgical strikes to keep the warmongers happy.

Pakistan is showing restraint because they have a Prime Minister who only wants his people to live better lives, he didn't come into politics for power so doesn't need war to give him any advantage in politics. You say maybe it's because Pakistan hasn't suffered the loss of life but Pakistan since 2008 has suffered much more than India via proxy means. India along with the CIA have been sending their terrorists over the Afghan border to attack Pakistan with tens of thousands being murdered inc classes of children. Its not Pakistan hiding this, they are currently proving it to the world in the ICJ. But Pakistan understands all out war will only bring more suffering so it has also been using it's proxies which are much stronger than the Northern Alliance to retaliate in Afghanistan.

I think one of the reasons Indians are frustrated is Pakistan has the edge in Afghanistan now. The US want a way out and are now having peace talks with the Taliban. Pakistan has said fine we will help you but stop supporting India in Afghanistan. I feel the US has agreed to this, which is why 2 days after official confirmation of peace talks a huge attack against the Afghan army took place. Without the US, India will have no influence in Afghanistan and it will be back to the days of pre-911. Imo this latest incident was a desperate move from India to re-fresh the narrative of Pakistan being a terrorist failed state but the horse has bolted, the car has started and drove on.

 

[rhony]

Pakistanis dont see Pigs as holy so will have no issue splitting Porky into a thousands pieces.

Pakistan and India are the only nuclear power nations in history to have a conventional war. 1999 was long time ago now and Pakistan was a new nuclear power. 20 years later Pakistan has more nukes than India and possibly even Israel. It's army is battle hardened having faced the biggest threat to a nation from proxy terrorists. Pakistan does not want war as it is climbing up the ladder of betterment but will not hold back at all if a war breaks out. Yes any sensible enemies will think war is foolish between two nuclear powers but these two countries think with their emtions. There will be a nuclear war one day, the bookies would make them favourites to be the first.

I hear people throwing the word 'battle hardened' around quite a bit. Beating extremists who carry substandard weapons is different from beating an enemy with weapons better than yours. The nuclear drum beat is crazy too. Entire Pakistan will be wiped out along with half of India if there is a nuclear war. As I indicated multiple times, the wars in this generation are economic.

 

[mustang]

I agree India has many voices but many of the strong voices are calling for military action. Even on this forum there are (Indian)posters who are saying Modi will be a nobody if he doesn't take action. I might be wrong but I think they believe a conventional war like Kargil will take place and India will come out on top because no sane person would want war if they know a nuclear war could develop. I have no idea what Indian plans are but yes I hope those sane voices are the loudest and we have a situation where they come up with another story of surgical strikes to keep the warmongers happy.

Pakistan is showing restraint because they have a Prime Minister who only wants his people to live better lives, he didn't come into politics for power so doesn't need war to give him any advantage in politics. You say maybe it's because Pakistan hasn't suffered the loss of life but Pakistan since 2008 has suffered much more than India via proxy means. India along with the CIA have been sending their terrorists over the Afghan border to attack Pakistan with tens of thousands being murdered inc classes of children. Its not Pakistan hiding this, they are currently proving it to the world in the ICJ. But Pakistan understands all out war will only bring more suffering so it has also been using it's proxies which are much stronger than the Northern Alliance to retaliate in Afghanistan.

I think one of the reasons Indians are frustrated is Pakistan has the edge in Afghanistan now. The US want a way out and are now having peace talks with the Taliban. Pakistan has said fine we will help you but stop supporting India in Afghanistan. I feel the US has agreed to this, which is why 2 days after official confirmation of peace talks a huge attack against the Afghan army took place. Without the US, India will have no influence in Afghanistan and it will be back to the days of pre-911. Imo this latest incident was a desperate move from India to re-fresh the narrative of Pakistan being a terrorist failed state but the horse has bolted, the car has started and drove on.

Strong voices calling for military action - I'm stating the obvious on this one here - Do you really want to form opinions on huge nation based on some internet keyboard warriors and trolls? This question is for both Pakistanis and Indians here because the hardline stance and comments are from both sides.

"I might be wrong but I think they believe a conventional war like Kargil will take place and India will come out on top because no sane person would want war if they know a nuclear war could develop." - Respectfully, you are wrong to assume many Indians think this way, same way as Indians are wrong to assume majority of Pakistanis are bearded mullah/jihadists.

Your points on CIA, USA, India, Afghanistan, ICJ - These are opinions and I prefer to have less/zero comments since once we start discussing opinions, then discussion devolves into debate which then devolves into arguments. These points maybe true, or maybe false propaganda. I will say one thing though from what I observed in India (and Indian posters please correct me if I'm wrong) - India being bigger than Pakistan manifests into outlook and foreign policy as well.

Meaning - they seem to have more things to care about outside of Pakistan than vice versa. If you are a smaller adversary, your universe is more consumed by the larger adversary. For the larger adversary, there are many other issues you are dealing with that dictate your policy decisions, not just your smaller adversary. This imbalance in outlook is apparent in many adversarial relations - Pakistan:India, India:China, China:USA ... the bigger guy simply has much more crap to worry about on top of just the smaller guy.

Why is the above paragraph relevant? - Your points assume that much of India's decisions are governed by what Pakistan does in Afghanistan - it does not seem to be. India feels encircled in Sri Lanka (thanks to China), they have border issues with China to deal with (the real bogeyman per some Indians) and probably host of other geopolitic stuff. Combine this with a distributed power in the government now you have multiple stakeholders with diverse issues in foreign policy. So a larger adversary focusing so dedicatedly on a smaller opponent is just not realistic - see my point?
[MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION] : I have to say this - all of the keyboard warriors here clamoring for war (a nuclear war as a cherry on top) - I sincerely doubt if any of the saber rattlers have seen/been in an actual war. Do they have any idea what a nuclear strike means for the next 5-6 generations? Do they even have an idea what it means to be under actual gunfire? I have been in combat situation and any former soldier can attest this to you - they do not want that again given a choice (sadly soldiers never have a choice, thats a different issue). Reason I say this is because it is easy to claim all kinds of rhetoric from a remote keyboard and it is EASIER to form opinions on a large group of people based on that small minority. But reality is very different. I can guarantee you that the loudest voices here clamoring for war will sh!t their pants at the first instance of being put in one.

 

[Third_Umpire]

Now that a movie has been made on the "surgical strike", shouldn't that be enough to tickle the fragile ego of Indians? Just replay that movie on repeat, and fantasize whatever war scenario you want. Make it your war porn.

 

[Swashbuckler]

Modi is all hot air, he is a coward. He will divert attention by causing some internal strife. If you hate India, you must love Modi.

 

[PakLFC]

We can see the next attack on Pak in the upcoming "Uri 2" The need not even think on an attack on a major city unless they want a nuclear holocaust. What India will do is amass more cheap soldiers in IoK leading tio more dead soldiers and people.

 

[Bewal Express]

I hear people throwing the word 'battle hardened' around quite a bit. Beating extremists who carry substandard weapons is different from beating an enemy with weapons better than yours. The nuclear drum beat is crazy too. Entire Pakistan will be wiped out along with half of India if there is a nuclear war. As I indicated multiple times, the wars in this generation are economic.

Why only half of India? If PK goes, all of Ind will also go.

 

[proud_pakistani]

These 2 countries will continue to keep doing small scale attacks till the end of time. Nothing more.

 

[last_knight]

We should not underestimate that probability of Pulwama 2 is more than of war. Indo-Pak should be focused more on preventing Pulwama 2.

 

[PakPremi]

Apart from attacking innoenet kashmiris they can only attack Pakistani sympathisers like Mehobooba Mufti in programs such as Aap Ki Adalat, for speaking the truth.

 

[WhenSultansBowled]

Oh it's coming soon followed by a couple of 40yo botoxed Bollywood "hero" and "heroine" dance number

 

[PakLFC]

Apart from attacking innoenet kashmiris they can only attack Pakistani sympathisers like Mehobooba Mufti in programs such as Aap Ki Adalat, for speaking the truth.

They gang up on a lady to show Indian might!! Then a washed up former military man makes cheap remarks in front of a chest thumping and ignorant crowd comparing India to an elephant and Pak to a mosquito or something. We know how even elephant's Dad America has gotten it's backside handed back to it by the Afghan Taliban living in mud huts Needless to say India is no America and Pak is no Afghanistan. India's inability and reluctance to attack Pak is the biggest evidence we need that they can't do it. They are scared of being humiliated.

 

[Pakpak]

I hear people throwing the word 'battle hardened' around quite a bit. Beating extremists who carry substandard weapons is different from beating an enemy with weapons better than yours. The nuclear drum beat is crazy too. Entire Pakistan will be wiped out along with half of India if there is a nuclear war. As I indicated multiple times, the wars in this generation are economic.

Just like half of India is a myth too. Pakistan has enough nukes to make sure India is rendered inhabitable.

 

[Adijazz1706]

Apart from attacking innoenet kashmiris they can only attack Pakistani sympathisers like Mehobooba Mufti in programs such as Aap Ki Adalat, for speaking the truth.

Mehbooba has never been pro-Pak, she's always been an Indian puppet. Good to see traitors humiliated by their own )

 

[the Great Khan]

PSL in Pakistan is when they will strike. they will use ISIS (ttp) and then try and isolate us by destroying the PSL and then whats left of our cricket. Its a tried and tested formula. they may target a bus or even a police training facility. Perhaps even an airport. But they will do something to give the impression Pakistan is still not safe for investment and sport. They will also attack us on the LOC and the working boundary. Probably Sialkot. All at the same time as the PSL.

 

[Pakpak]

PSL in Pakistan is when they will strike. they will use ISIS (ttp) and then try and isolate us by destroying the PSL and then whats left of our cricket. Its a tried and tested formula. they may target a bus or even a police training facility. Perhaps even an airport. But they will do something to give the impression Pakistan is still not safe for investment and sport. They will also attack us on the LOC and the working boundary. Probably Sialkot. All at the same time as the PSL.

I have the same fear, our agencies and everyone needs to be full and high alert right now.

 

[rhony]

Why only half of India? If PK goes, all of Ind will also go.

Musharraf just addressed this a few days ago. Pak retains the first strike advantage as India doesnt fire nuclear weapons first. Unless Pak goes with 50 missiles at once, there is no chance for Pak to survive. If Pak attacks with 1, India will respond with 20 and will end the war. India's missile defence system can enable them to always strike back.

 

[rhony]

Just like half of India is a myth too. Pakistan has enough nukes to make sure India is rendered inhabitable.

Both countries have enough nukes. It's about the size and timing

 

[Bewal Express]

Musharraf just addressed this a few days ago. Pak retains the first strike advantage as India doesnt fire nuclear weapons first. Unless Pak goes with 50 missiles at once, there is no chance for Pak to survive. If Pak attacks with 1, India will respond with 20 and will end the war. India's missile defence system can enable them to always strike back.

I think you are in dream land if you think Ind will survive a nuclear attack- not that i would wish that on anyone.

 

[rhony]

I think you are in dream land if you think Ind will survive a nuclear attack- not that i would wish that on anyone.

Survive? Hell no. Nuclear attack has repercussions for generations. It's just the sheer size of India where India has an advantage over Pak in nuclear war. Missile defences kick in by the time north east and deep South come into picture.

 

[rhony]

At the end of the day, nuclear weapons are for deterrence only. There is no reason big enough to annihiliate one's own population. Do you think americans would have attacked Japan with nuclear weapons if Japan had the capability then? Russia and US fought many proxy wars but never went nuclear because of the same reason. Better sense will prevail before one unleashes death upon each other.

 

[PakPremi]

Mehbooba has never been pro-Pak, she's always been an Indian puppet. Good to see traitors humiliated by their own )

I know especially her father, but she was defending for Pak here and gave very good replies.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

PSL in Pakistan is when they will strike. they will use ISIS (ttp) and then try and isolate us by destroying the PSL and then whats left of our cricket. Its a tried and tested formula. they may target a bus or even a police training facility. Perhaps even an airport. But they will do something to give the impression Pakistan is still not safe for investment and sport. They will also attack us on the LOC and the working boundary. Probably Sialkot. All at the same time as the PSL.

You can see the logic, it would definitely hurt Pakistan, but by the same token, if Pakistan organised a counter attack on the IPL it would be devastating for India. Not a path either country should be going down.

 

[Mamoon]

If something happens in the PSL, all the blame will be dumped on our intelligence and security agencies. It will be futile to blame India for taking revenge.

Everyone in Pakistan is aware of the looming threat and the excuse that we were caught off-guard etc. will not stick. This is our military/ISI's chance to prove that they are more than just hot air or capable of doing something practical instead of running their mouths.

But then again, this is the same "intelligence" that wants us to believe that they had no clue that Osama was chilling half a mile from our military academy and was mowing his lawn on Sundays without our vigilant and competent security forces having a sniff.

Considering their goof-ups, it is entirely possible that India or some other "enemy" might find a loophole in our security arrangements and do some serious damage.

 

[slipcatch]

If something happens in the PSL, all the blame will be dumped on our intelligence and security agencies. It will be futile to blame India for taking revenge.

Everyone in Pakistan is aware of the looming threat and the excuse that we were caught off-guard etc. will not stick. This is our military/ISI's chance to prove that they are more than just hot air or capable of doing something practical instead of running their mouths.

But then again, this is the same "intelligence" that wants us to believe that they had no clue that Osama was chilling half a mile from our military academy and was mowing his lawn on Sundays without our vigilant and competent security forces having a sniff.

Considering their goof-ups, it is entirely possible that India or some other "enemy" might find a loophole in our security arrangements and do some serious damage.

If it is true then hiding someone who is being searched by every intelligence agency and army in plain sight for such a long time is pretty amazing for a country that you believe is a dumb of the world.

 

[Mamoon]

If it is true then hiding someone who is being searched by every intelligence agency and army in plain sight for such a long time is pretty amazing for a country that you believe is a dumb of the world.

Which is why I don't buy the "we did not know about Osama's whereabouts" story, but pro-military lobbyists will still sell that story and praise their competency at the same time.

 

[rhony]

If it is true then hiding someone who is being searched by every intelligence agency and army in plain sight for such a long time is pretty amazing for a country that you believe is a dumb of the world.

Now see how amazing it was that Americans found him and also hunted him down unilaterally.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Musharraf just addressed this a few days ago. Pak retains the first strike advantage as India doesnt fire nuclear weapons first. Unless Pak goes with 50 missiles at once, there is no chance for Pak to survive. If Pak attacks with 1, India will respond with 20 and will end the war. India's missile defence system can enable them to always strike back.

Its a misconception that India will not use nukes first.

 

[slipcatch]

Now see how amazing it was that Americans found him and also hunted him down unilaterally.

Neither you nor I know how American found him.

We will have to wait until it is all declassified .

 

[Mamoon]

Neither you nor I know how American found him.

We will have to wait until it is all declassified .

There are three possible answers:

(1) ISI was giving protection to Osama.

(2) ISI had no clue about his whereabouts before the U.S. took him out.

(3) Osama was not there in the first place. It is all a work of fiction.

Number 3, which is the least likely possibility, is the only version of events that does not make Pakistan look terrible.

 

[rhony]

There are three possible answers:

(1) ISI was giving protection to Osama.

(2) ISI had no clue about his whereabouts before the U.S. took him out.

(3) Osama was not there in the first place. It is all a work of fiction.

Number 3, which is the least likely possibility, is the only version of events that does not make Pakistan look terrible.

How does No.3 help? They've already acknowledged it

 

[Mamoon]

How does No.3 help? They've already acknowledged it

They could claim at some point in the future that they acknowledged because of pressure from the U.S.

Nevertheless, that is why I called it the least likely possibility.

 

[slipcatch]

There are three possible answers:

(1) ISI was giving protection to Osama.

(2) ISI had no clue about his whereabouts before the U.S. took him out.

(3) Osama was not there in the first place. It is all a work of fiction.

Number 3, which is the least likely possibility, is the only version of events that does not make Pakistan look terrible.

ISI knew where Osama was.

American Knew where Osama was.

Those who matter knew where Osama was.

 

[Rana]

ISI knew where Osama was.

American Knew where Osama was.

Those who matter knew where Osama was.

I would be better off arguing with some proof here but it was ISI who assisted the CIA with vital intel in their mission to take down the group of armed men in that big house near the army quarters in Abbottabad.

It all remains a mystery how this group of people that were considered to be high ranking soldiers of Al Qaida managed to get all the way to Abbotabad in the first place.

 

[rhony]

Its a misconception that India will not use nukes first.

What?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_first_use

 

[slipcatch]

I would be better off arguing with some proof here but it was ISI who assisted the CIA with vital intel in their mission to take down the group of armed men in that big house near the army quarters in Abbottabad.

It all remains a mystery how this group of people that were considered to be high ranking soldiers of Al Qaida managed to get all the way to Abbotabad in the first place.

Attacks on a cricket team isn't preventable and can evade intelligence.

But high profile person moving around and living in close proximity isn't easy to evade intelligence.

About evidence, none of us have it and none of us will have it until anything is declassified. I doubt any of us will be alive for that long.

How one use this speculated information provided by the media and government is dependent on person's intention and what they are trying to achieve.

 

[Pakpak]

Both countries have enough nukes. It's about the size and timing

Not really, all nuke facilities as far as we go are underground all over the country, even a first strike won't save India. The nuclear fallout even from one nuke would leave half the nation uninhabitable, never mind over a 100.

 

[cricketjoshila]

What?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_first_use

https://web.archive.org/web/2013012...m/NewsDetailsPage/2010/newsDetails211010n.php






The Indian nuclear doctrine also reflects this strategic culture, with its emphasis on minimal deterrence, no first use against non-nuclear weapon states

 

[cricketjoshila]

People need to look at the yields of weapon before talking about what will be the result.

 

[rhony]

Not really, all nuke facilities as far as we go are underground all over the country, even a first strike won't save India. The nuclear fallout even from one nuke would leave half the nation uninhabitable, never mind over a 100.

A nuke typically destroys a city and it's borders. Inhabitable is a secondary issue. It's the capability of annihiliating a nation before they strike back. As I said, India's defenses will kick in once the missiles are long range targetting south or north east. India has distinct advantage because of geography and size

 

[Pakpak]

A nuke typically destroys a city and it's borders. Inhabitable is a secondary issue. It's the capability of annihiliating a nation before they strike back. As I said, India's defenses will kick in once the missiles are long range targetting south or north east. India has distinct advantage because of geography and size

Yeah I am sure our military planners haven't considered that. /s

Pakistan has a first strike policy and will use it long before India considers to use theirs. India would probably use it if they are in danger of a catastrophic defeat, which isn't likely due to their numbers.

 

[rhony]

Yeah I am sure our military planners haven't considered that. /s

Pakistan has a first strike policy and will use it long before India considers to use theirs. India would probably use it if they are in danger of a catastrophic defeat, which isn't likely due to their numbers.

India has no first strike policy (Joshila says otherwise). However, their policy is to go ALL IN even if it was small tactical nuclear weapon from Pak or anyone.

 

[Syed1]

Not really, all nuke facilities as far as we go are underground all over the country, even a first strike won't save India. The nuclear fallout even from one nuke would leave half the nation uninhabitable, never mind over a 100.

Pakistan also tested nuclear launch from a submarine a couple of year ago. So in the unfortunate case of any Indian attack missiles could be flying towards India from deep inside the Indian ocean as well.

 

[Syed1]

Video from 2 years ago

 

[cricketjoshila]

A nuke typically destroys a city and it's borders. Inhabitable is a secondary issue. It's the capability of annihiliating a nation before they strike back. As I said, India's defenses will kick in once the missiles are long range targetting south or north east. India has distinct advantage because of geography and size

Pakistanis think India's NFU policy gives Pakistan the advantage of using nukes first.

But India has already qualified that NFU policy with riders.

Once war starts and if Indian satellites or any intelligence report gives even a hint of a possible Pakistan nuke strike, there is nothing that will stop India from preempting it.

Also the relatively smaller yields of Pakistani weapons makes it difficult for them to.cover a geography as vast as Indias.

Lastly, Pakistan uses proxy war as its low cost. Whats the use of this low cost prixy war if Pakistan has to go for a nuke war to save Masood Azhar and co.

 

[cricketjoshila]

India has no first strike policy (Joshila says otherwise). However, their policy is to go ALL IN even if it was small tactical nuclear weapon from Pak or anyone.

I have already provided the statement of the then NSA.

 

[Pakpak]

Pakistan also tested nuclear launch from a submarine a couple of year ago. So in the unfortunate case of any Indian attack missiles could be flying towards India from deep inside the Indian ocean as well.

Pretty much, its an Indian wet dream where Pakistan will be gone but India won't.

 

[Pakpak]

India has no first strike policy (Joshila says otherwise). However, their policy is to go ALL IN even if it was small tactical nuclear weapon from Pak or anyone.

I don't think we would ever use tactical nukes, they are to make sure India doesn't go all out. And if it comes to that we would use everything. As we know India would retaliate anyway.

One thing is for sure, I hope I never live to see that day where nukes are used.

 

[Syed1]

Pretty much, its an Indian wet dream where Pakistan will be gone but India won't.

Exactly... and India is no US, use of nuclear weapons by either country will lead to complete economic and military sanctions from world over. And in case of Indian nukes use on Pakistan don't be surprised if China steps into the game and lobs a couple of nukes as well.



As it is China has zero fear of India, heck last year they just waltzed in and occupied several kilometers of Indian territory. Only for Indian media to cry "Phir agaya dragon" ) )

 

[Manager101]

Why people are even discussing about something terrible like Nuclear War ???

Its not a game or a movie, its real life, each and every city would be destroyed, millions would die, those who survive would be living in terrible diseases more worst then death, land would be inhabitable for centuries, the poisonous smoke will be carried around the world affecting other countries aswell.

The inventor of Nuclear Bombs should have been jailed for life, but we humans never learn and multiply the disasters a million times. We are the self-destructive losers and oppressing the earth.

We humans should wake up before its too late and spread peace as much as possible. Life is short, don't spend it on useless factors like egos and anger.

 

[cricketjoshila]

So Pakistani posters think Pakistan will use nukes rather than handover the likes of Masood Azhar Hafiz Saeed etc. Whats the use of raising these expendable elements when Pakistan has to sacrifice itself to save them.

Funnily most of these posters dont live in Pakistan.

 

[Pakpak]

Why people are even discussing about something terrible like Nuclear War ???

Its not a game or a movie, its real life, each and every city would be destroyed, millions would die, those who survive would be living in terrible diseases more worst then death, land would be inhabitable for centuries, the poisonous smoke will be carried around the world affecting other countries aswell.

The inventor of Nuclear Bombs should have been jailed for life, but we humans never learn and multiply the disasters a million times. We are the self-destructive losers and oppressing the earth.

We humans should wake up before its too late and spread peace as much as possible. Life is short, don't spend it on useless factors like egos and anger.

Nukes are the only reason Pakistan and India aren't at war right now or the only reason Soviets and US never went head to head.

 

[Stalin]

Exactly... and India is no US, use of nuclear weapons by either country will lead to complete economic and military sanctions from world over. And in case of Indian nukes use on Pakistan don't be surprised if China steps into the game and lobs a couple of nukes as well.



As it is China has zero fear of India, heck last year they just waltzed in and occupied several kilometers of Indian territory. Only for Indian media to cry "Phir agaya dragon" ) )

Lol. Absolutely no way China will nuke India. All the fake friendship between China and pakistan reminds me of that little story of a Lion and a rat.

 

[Stalin]

One thing is clear. If both countries go all out nuclear over each other, then I'm sorry but there will be no Pakistan left on the world map. And of course large areas of northern India will be destroyed as well.

 

[Swashbuckler]

To all the warmongers here, shame on you. Fighting wars via keyboard sitting in the comfort of your homes is all you can do, but please spare the poor soldiers on either side of the border who have families just like us and who are usually sole breadwinners from low income households. 99% of us don't know the meaning of sacrifice, we have done nothing extraordinary for others yet want some poor people to die so that we can win random internet arguments. And people discussing nukes, do they even have a functioning brain? Sorry for my harsh words but the aggression and fake toughness is too much here.

 

[Manager101]

Nukes are the only reason Pakistan and India aren't at war right now or the only reason Soviets and US never went head to head.

Never trust humans, they have done more terrible things then one could imagine. The existence of such invention is itself a massive and self-destructive time bomb.

 

[rhony]

https://pulitzercenter.org/reporting/india-and-pakistan-are-quietly-making-nuclear-war-more-likely

Excellent and very scary post. The possibilities are not solely in control of PMs in both countries apparently

 

[Pakpak]

To all the warmongers here, shame on you. Fighting wars via keyboard sitting in the comfort of your homes is all you can do, but please spare the poor soldiers on either side of the border who have families just like us and who are usually sole breadwinners from low income households. 99% of us don't know the meaning of sacrifice, we have done nothing extraordinary for others yet want some poor people to die so that we can win random internet arguments. And people discussing nukes, do they even have a functioning brain? Sorry for my harsh words but the aggression and fake toughness is too much here.

View attachment 88661

I wasn't discussing it, I was merely responding and then added I hope we never see a war.

 

[Swashbuckler]

I wasn't discussing it, I was merely responding and then added I hope we never see a war.

My post wasn't directed at you, it was a general comment.

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

To all the warmongers here, shame on you. Fighting wars via keyboard sitting in the comfort of your homes is all you can do, but please spare the poor soldiers on either side of the border who have families just like us and who are usually sole breadwinners from low income households. 99% of us don't know the meaning of sacrifice, we have done nothing extraordinary for others yet want some poor people to die so that we can win random internet arguments. And people discussing nukes, do they even have a functioning brain? Sorry for my harsh words but the aggression and fake toughness is too much here.

View attachment 88661

Good post. Also the guy in that image looks like Gambhir.

 

[Swashbuckler]

Good post. Also the guy in that image looks like Gambhir.

Yeah it was Gambhir, cropped that part out because I believe many are behaving like Gambhir in this regard, from both sides of the border and abroad.

 

[cricketworm]

India doesn't need to attack Pakistan, Pakistan will destroy itself as it has done for almost a decade. Just wait for IK to disagree with Pak. army. Or wait for another election. Many terror groups are waiting for the funding to come in to get activated. Indirectly supporting or not suppressing those group from its inception has never favoured Pakistan, India gets attacked by terror groups affects Pakistan more than any other countries. Only country that prosper with this attack is China. Only China benefits from these attacks.

 

[cricketworm]

To all the warmongers here, shame on you. Fighting wars via keyboard sitting in the comfort of your homes is all you can do, but please spare the poor soldiers on either side of the border who have families just like us and who are usually sole breadwinners from low income households. 99% of us don't know the meaning of sacrifice, we have done nothing extraordinary for others yet want some poor people to die so that we can win random internet arguments. And people discussing nukes, do they even have a functioning brain? Sorry for my harsh words but the aggression and fake toughness is too much here.

View attachment 88661

Most ppl will stop talking about war, if they have a visit to their local trauma center for an hour.

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

Yeah it was Gambhir, cropped that part out because I believe many are behaving like Gambhir in this regard, from both sides of the border and abroad.

Army Jawaans and their families from both side of the border will be the losers if war happens.

If people still want war then send all the politicians from both sides. I am sure in that scenario, common man from both sides would like to happily lose that war.

 

[Pakpak]

India doesn't need to attack Pakistan, Pakistan will destroy itself as it has done for almost a decade. Just wait for IK to disagree with Pak. army. Or wait for another election. Many terror groups are waiting for the funding to come in to get activated. Indirectly supporting or not suppressing those group from its inception has never favoured Pakistan, India gets attacked by terror groups affects Pakistan more than any other countries. Only country that prosper with this attack is China. Only China benefits from these attacks.

Sadly this dream of Indians has also ended after we got rid of all groups who had been blowing us up with your backing and since we started catching your monkey spies in our nation.

Long may it continue. You're heading down the path we were in the 90's, good luck.

 

[slipcatch]

Army Jawaans and their families from both side of the border will be the losers if war happens.

If people still want war then send all the politicians from both sides. I am sure in that scenario, common man from both sides would like to happily lose that war.

Only group of people promoting war are Bhakths, most aren't capable of carrying their own weight let alone fighting a war.

 

[Syed1]

Nobody is recommending use of nukes, but one thing is clear the only reason Pakistan exists to this day is because we have the bomb and a competent army. Otherwise our politicians would have sold us down the river a long time ago.



The nukes are a deterrent so that people like Modi do not get any ideas.

 

[thelandofthebravepeople]

It will happen close to the election, so Modi can be reelected.

Apne 40 marwadiye-