Covid-19: No one NEEDS to go to a bar, or cafe, or restaurant, or theatre, or cinema

[Yossarian]

Governments are flaffing about trying to look for ways to bring the pandemic uncle control. But no one's is prepared to say out loud the obvious. It is being said that covid-19 primary spreads indoors, especially when social distancing is not being observed. And amongst the main places that occurs is in bars, restaurants, cafes, restaurants, cinemas etc.

If so, regardless of what the government does or does not do, in terms of lock-downs, restrictions, how many can be together at a wedding, or cafe or restaurant, the fact of the matter is that the vast majority of infections are occurring because thick, gormless, morons are not taking the necessary precautions!

The govt. should not need to tell them to that. They should use their own grey matter and do it without being told to do so.

Furthermore, right now, no one NEEDS to go to a bar, or cafe, or restaurant, or theatre, or cinema. Flipping well eat and drink at home! Then socialise to your hearts content when it's all under control.

Of course there are many who are doing everything they can, but still get infected. eg The elderly in care homes.

But if the thicko morons took a little more care, then it will allow the authorities to concentrate their efforts on keep safe those that are most vulnerable.

Rant over.

 

[Donal Cozzie]

tbf, while I agree with you regarding the gormless idiots, I think it's important to factor in that people are suffering severely mentally. It is necessary to save lives ultimately, but I can absolutely understand why people in low risk groups are starting to get fed up. It is inherently selfish of course, but its been eight months now. Its an extremely long time and socialising is extremely important for mental wellbeing. It shouldnt be a surprise that some people are trying to cling to them, because the truth for many people is, without them, they don't have anything else or any other means or locations of socialising.

So I would disagree slightly. Right now it is right to close them for the time being, but as a general point I feel people do need those things you mention, because isn't life meant to be enjoyed ultimately? And those places bring a lot of joy.

1 thing I do disagree completely on is cinemas. The local ones here were abig lifeline for me for the two or so months where the virus was under control but lockdown still present. I'm a tad odd in that I absolutely love going to the cinema by myself particularly in the evenings, I find it extremely liverating in a way I can't really express lol, and I can confidently say they're arguably one of the safest places.

Routine here was as follows, go in wearing mask, wash hands, pay by card, get your stuff, take your allocated seat and enjoy the film. Booking online meant that every seat within six feet of yours was automatically kepy empty, so at no stage are you even near two meters of anyone. Film ends, leave one row at a time, walk home.

I can see why cinemas are shut but I am bitterly disappointed. It was an important lifeline for me, and I really enjoyed seeing old classics on the big screen, but now, like everything else, it's been taken away and it bloody sucks.

 

[Gayle_Force]

Putting aside the impact on mental and physical health from stopping these activities. What about the businesses? So you just let these go under for no fault of their own?

 

[HappyWarsFan]

You are right. Take out is enough from restaurants. I am completely content with sitting home and enjoying my anime and video games. People are way too dependant on this outside/social stuff. Learn to entertain yourself.

 

[Usman]

Governments are flaffing about trying to look for ways to bring the pandemic uncle control. But no one's is prepared to say out loud the obvious. It is being said that covid-19 primary spreads indoors, especially when social distancing is not being observed. And amongst the main places that occurs is in bars, restaurants, cafes, restaurants, cinemas etc.

If so, regardless of what the government does or does not do, in terms of lock-downs, restrictions, how many can be together at a wedding, or cafe or restaurant, the fact of the matter is that the vast majority of infections are occurring because thick, gormless, morons are not taking the necessary precautions!

The govt. should not need to tell them to that. They should use their own grey matter and do it without being told to do so.

Furthermore, right now, no one NEEDS to go to a bar, or cafe, or restaurant, or theatre, or cinema. Flipping well eat and drink at home! Then socialise to your hearts content when it's all under control.

Of course there are many who are doing everything they can, but still get infected. eg The elderly in care homes.

But if the thicko morons took a little more care, then it will allow the authorities to concentrate their efforts on keep safe those that are most vulnerable.

Rant over.

I agree with you and you can add arcades and shopping malls to the list too. This is coming from someone who regularly visited indoor venues all the time pre-lockdown. I find it hard to sit and do nothing but I've personally done all I can to minimise the risk to me and anyone around me by not going anywhere indoors since March. For me, whilst its annoying living like this, I am able to deal with it without getting down about it.

Having said all that, I think it's also unfair to label all people who do go out as morons. Mental health is a massive issue and just because you and me are ok sitting at home, neither of us know what's going on inside someone else's head. There are plenty of people out there for whom prolonged isolation is a severe threat to their mental wellbeing, particularly people living on their own away from family. There are others who may be out because of a toxic atmosphere in their homes with physical or mental abuse. All I'm saying is don't put everyone who goes out into the same boat. Yes there are a significant proportion of young people who simply don't care about the consequences of allowing the virus to spread, but there are also a lot of people for whom these activities are vital for them not to go into deep depression or for them not to feel insane.

 

[Savak]

I can avoid the bars, resteraunts, cafes indefinitely, but gyms being shut down, I cannot tolerate

 

[miandadrules]

Don’t fall for the government narratives.

This pandemic has been horrifically managed the world over and now they are propagating the narrative that it is the general public at fault.

Unfortunately, in a capitalist system only the few at the top have their interests catered for, the rest are here to serve them.

 

[Yossarian]

Putting aside the impact on mental and physical health from stopping these activities. What about the businesses? So you just let these go under for no fault of their own?

Depends upon what your priorities are. Saving tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of lives or saving the businesses of restaurateurs and pub (bar) owners.

I find it ludicrous to suggest that peoples mental and health is at risk unless they can go out to eat at a restaurant, or go to a bar/pub and gobble down loads of alcohol. Quite the opposite I would have thought.

 

[Itachi]

While I agree with the sentiment, it is realistically not possible. Every sector is interlinked with another one and if you stop one, it will have a drastic effect in another one and it will go on.

 

[Yossarian]

I agree with you and you can add arcades and shopping malls to the list too. This is coming from someone who regularly visited indoor venues all the time pre-lockdown. I find it hard to sit and do nothing but I've personally done all I can to minimise the risk to me and anyone around me by not going anywhere indoors since March. For me, whilst its annoying living like this, I am able to deal with it without getting down about it.

Having said all that, I think it's also unfair to label all people who do go out as morons. Mental health is a massive issue and just because you and me are ok sitting at home, neither of us know what's going on inside someone else's head. There are plenty of people out there for whom prolonged isolation is a severe threat to their mental wellbeing, particularly people living on their own away from family. There are others who may be out because of a toxic atmosphere in their homes with physical or mental abuse. All I'm saying is don't put everyone who goes out into the same boat. Yes there are a significant proportion of young people who simply don't care about the consequences of allowing the virus to spread, but there are also a lot of people for whom these activities are vital for them not to go into deep depression or for them not to feel insane.

I have no issues with people going out to shopping malls or meeting friends outdoors etc, as long as they take all the recommended precautions. My issues are with all these thicko gormless morons who pay no heed to social distancing, and flout the rules by holding parties, and generally taking the view "I'll be all right Jack cause I'm healthy (and/or young)", but ignoring the fact they could become infected, be asymptomatic, and then go on to infect the vulnerable, the elderly, that may include their parents, grandparents, uncles, aunts.

 

[Yossarian]

While I agree with the sentiment, it is realistically not possible. Every sector is interlinked with another one and if you stop one, it will have a drastic effect in another one and it will go on.

You completely miss the point my friend. There would be no need to 'stop' any single sector if the brainless in our midst took it upon themselves to follow the recommended good practices of hygiene, social distancing, and generally taking all the common sense precautions that will keep this virus at bay.

'Stopping' only becomes necessary when the mentally deficient ignore recommended good practice. It's not as if they're not aware of the consequences if they don't.

 

[Yossarian]

Depends upon what your priorities are. Saving tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of lives or saving the businesses of restaurateurs and pub (bar) owners.

I find it ludicrous to suggest that peoples mental and health is at risk unless they can go out to eat at a restaurant, or go to a bar/pub and gobble down loads of alcohol. Quite the opposite I would have thought.

"If they can't go out to eat..."

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Depends upon what your priorities are. Saving tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of lives or saving the businesses of restaurateurs and pub (bar) owners.

I find it ludicrous to suggest that peoples mental and health is at risk unless they can go out to eat at a restaurant, or go to a bar/pub and gobble down loads of alcohol. Quite the opposite I would have thought.

The reality is, our nation's wealth and ideology is intrinsically tied to capitalism. Closing down public shopping, socialising and entertainment venues is going to trickle down everywhere else as well, already we are talking about a major recession. I'm not sure the govt's priorities would be to save lives if it meant the treasury taking another major hit, although they are never going to say that publicly of course.

 

[Gayle_Force]

Depends upon what your priorities are. Saving tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of lives or saving the businesses of restaurateurs and pub (bar) owners.

I find it ludicrous to suggest that peoples mental and health is at risk unless they can go out to eat at a restaurant, or go to a bar/pub and gobble down loads of alcohol. Quite the opposite I would have thought.

I don’t think you fully understand the severity of what you are suggesting. Most major cities consist of tens of thousands of businesses such as restaurants, bars, cafes and gyms. These are mostly owned by small business owners and employ low wage employees who live paycheque to paycheque. If a situation is created where these all go bankrupt the damage to the economy it will cause is unspeakable.

Also, I find it ludicrous that people think completely shutting down social interaction and physical activities can be ok for mental health and physical health.

 

[Yossarian]

I don’t think you fully understand the severity of what you are suggesting. Most major cities consist of tens of thousands of businesses such as restaurants, bars, cafes and gyms. These are mostly owned by small business owners and employ low wage employees who live paycheque to paycheque. If a situation is created where these all go bankrupt the damage to the economy it will cause is unspeakable.

Also, I find it ludicrous that people think completely shutting down social interaction and physical activities can be ok for mental health and physical health.

From above.

You completely miss the point my friend. There would be no need to 'stop' any single sector if the brainless in our midst took it upon themselves to follow the recommended good practices of hygiene, social distancing, and generally taking all the common sense precautions that will keep this virus at bay.

'Stopping' only becomes necessary when the mentally deficient ignore recommended good practice. It's not as if they're not aware of the consequences if they don't.

 

[Yossarian]

The reality is, our nation's wealth and ideology is intrinsically tied to capitalism. Closing down public shopping, socialising and entertainment venues is going to trickle down everywhere else as well, already we are talking about a major recession. I'm not sure the govt's priorities would be to save lives if it meant the treasury taking another major hit, although they are never going to say that publicly of course.

I'm saying that the government forcibly closing down these venues, wholly or partially, won't make much difference unless the mentally deficient followed good sensible advice and took the necessary precautions. That's where the real problem lies. The government, politicians, celebrities, the media, and anyone/everyone else who takes the necessary precautions, should call out these mentally challenged individuals (who, fortunately, are a minority). It's the recklessness of these few that is the prime driver of this 2nd wave.

 

[Gayle_Force]

From above.

“ Furthermore, right now, no one NEEDS to go to a bar, or cafe, or restaurant, or theatre, or cinema. Flipping well eat and drink at home!” This is also the title of your thread.

Now you are suggesting that everyone should just practice good hygiene and social distancing. I don’t think anyone disagrees with that lol

 

[James]

There needs to be a balance. The problem with a hard lockdown is that it will cause untold economic damage (and this is already starting to happen), which in the long run will destroy people’s jobs, incomes and livelihoods, and in the end such mass poverty and destitution would lead to far more disease, death and general misery than the Covid virus could ever hope to.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I'm saying that the government forcibly closing down these venues, wholly or partially, won't make much difference unless the mentally deficient followed good sensible advice and took the necessary precautions. That's where the real problem lies. The government, politicians, celebrities, the media, and anyone/everyone else who takes the necessary precautions, should call out these mentally challenged individuals (who, fortunately, are a minority). It's the recklessness of these few that is the prime driver of this 2nd wave.

Did closing down everything not make a difference the first time? You can hope people will follow distancing advice, safety measures and the rest, but in reality, there's always enough people who think it doesn't apply to them. Many people I have met still think it's all a hoax. At least until it hits someone they know.

The other factor is sheer Covid-fatique. When the virus first hit, lockdown hit home and the streets were deserted when we went into lockdown. But when it becomes clear that there's no end in sight, people start to get more lax, standards start to slip and now everyone wants to be outside. I do agree that restaurants, pubs and cafes aren't really necessary for the general public, but they are very much necessary for the future of Britain, and probably most other countries in the world. You can understand why the govt wants to try to keep them going.

 

[Dios]

We must learn to live with the virus.

 

[Yossarian]

“ Furthermore, right now, no one NEEDS to go to a bar, or cafe, or restaurant, or theatre, or cinema. Flipping well eat and drink at home!” This is also the title of your thread.

Now you are suggesting that everyone should just practice good hygiene and social distancing. I don’t think anyone disagrees with that lol

well if they are not following the rules, then the only option is to force them to do so. Ensuring they cant go to pubs, restaurants etc, by shutting them, would help in that regard. I don't see why the health of the majority should be at risk just because some morons can't gobble their alcohol and food at home.

 

[Yossarian]

Did closing down everything not make a difference the first time? You can hope people will follow distancing advice, safety measures and the rest, but in reality, there's always enough people who think it doesn't apply to them. Many people I have met still think it's all a hoax. At least until it hits someone they know.

The other factor is sheer Covid-fatique. When the virus first hit, lockdown hit home and the streets were deserted when we went into lockdown. But when it becomes clear that there's no end in sight, people start to get more lax, standards start to slip and now everyone wants to be outside. I do agree that restaurants, pubs and cafes aren't really necessary for the general public, but they are very much necessary for the future of Britain, and probably most other countries in the world. You can understand why the govt wants to try to keep them going.

I do understand. But unless there is a successful vaccine, this covid-19 is not going to go away. As appears to be the case at the moment, it is going to get worse, much worse. Sure, the young and healthy will be fine, but what about everyone else? Should we just wait for them to eventually become covid-19 positive, kick the bucket, and problem solved.

In the absence of a successful vaccine, there simply is no other option other than a full lockdown. The longer that is deferred, the more will die in the meantime.

 

[Yossarian]

We must learn to live with the virus.

You only 'live with it' if you're young and healthy. Else you die because of it.

 

[Robert]

tbf, while I agree with you regarding the gormless idiots, I think it's important to factor in that people are suffering severely mentally. It is necessary to save lives ultimately, but I can absolutely understand why people in low risk groups are starting to get fed up. It is inherently selfish of course, but its been eight months now. Its an extremely long time and socialising is extremely important for mental wellbeing. It shouldnt be a surprise that some people are trying to cling to them, because the truth for many people is, without them, they don't have anything else or any other means or locations of socialising.

So I would disagree slightly. Right now it is right to close them for the time being, but as a general point I feel people do need those things you mention, because isn't life meant to be enjoyed ultimately? And those places bring a lot of joy.

I feel sorry for youngsters. They should be partying and so on at their age. Telling them to stop doing that is like telling the tide not to come in or the tree sap not to rise in spring.

I'm pretty old now and I have my cycling and my instruments and Netflix with Mrs Robert so I am fine, but I'd feel pretty low if I was still a 20something.

 

[Gayle_Force]

well if they are not following the rules, then the only option is to force them to do so. Ensuring they cant go to pubs, restaurants etc, by shutting them, would help in that regard. I don't see why the health of the majority should be at risk just because some morons can't gobble their alcohol and food at home.

Well firstly tbh I think government should be the one to blame as the it was on them to figure out a way to control the spread and increase testing and hospital capacity during the first lockdown. I don’t know specifically which region you are talking about but in Ontario we still don’t have rapid testing.

Long term lockdown cannot be the answer. The economy simply can’t survive that. I don’t know if your career has been impacted at all from the pandemic but just imagine if you are the major source of income for a family and you lose your income for no fault of your own.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Governments are flaffing about trying to look for ways to bring the pandemic uncle control. But no one's is prepared to say out loud the obvious. It is being said that covid-19 primary spreads indoors, especially when social distancing is not being observed. And amongst the main places that occurs is in bars, restaurants, cafes, restaurants, cinemas etc.

If so, regardless of what the government does or does not do, in terms of lock-downs, restrictions, how many can be together at a wedding, or cafe or restaurant, the fact of the matter is that the vast majority of infections are occurring because thick, gormless, morons are not taking the necessary precautions!

The govt. should not need to tell them to that. They should use their own grey matter and do it without being told to do so.

Furthermore, right now, no one NEEDS to go to a bar, or cafe, or restaurant, or theatre, or cinema. Flipping well eat and drink at home! Then socialise to your hearts content when it's all under control.

Of course there are many who are doing everything they can, but still get infected. eg The elderly in care homes.

But if the thicko morons took a little more care, then it will allow the authorities to concentrate their efforts on keep safe those that are most vulnerable.

Rant over.

I remember our last discussion where you were insiting Premier League football will not take place.

The pandemic has been vastly overstated and handled wrongly by most governments. Those vunerable should be given all they require, money , care, attention until some sort of long term soluation is found for them. The rest of us , should be able to live our lives. Mass job losses, mental health, suicides, increase in crime and disorder is simply not worth it.

 

[Gabbar Singh]

You only 'live with it' if you're young and healthy. Else you die because of it.

That’s not true. Over 90% of over 80s who contracted covid in the UK didn’t die from it.

https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m1327

Sure we need to protect the vulnerable but given there is no end in sight (no one can promise a date for a vaccine) the measures need to be proportionate.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

I fully sympathise with those that need to go out and socialise. I'm quite lucky in that I can just chill at home with my wife and thus managed to survive the initial lockdown on just spending time together, eating at home and going for walks in the warm weather. I'm also a bit of an introvert now the whole working from home situation suits me too.

Many of my friends/colleagues are not so lucky. They live alone and the lockdown means they can go for weeks without any face to face interaction. You can argue that they can meet outside after work but the British weather isn't often conducive to meeting outside in the evening in autumn/winter. These people, often young professionals are going crazy cooped up at home.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I do understand. But unless there is a successful vaccine, this covid-19 is not going to go away. As appears to be the case at the moment, it is going to get worse, much worse. Sure, the young and healthy will be fine, but what about everyone else? Should we just wait for them to eventually become covid-19 positive, kick the bucket, and problem solved.

In the absence of a successful vaccine, there simply is no other option other than a full lockdown. The longer that is deferred, the more will die in the meantime.

To be brutally honest, yes. You yourself have said Covid-19 is not going to go away, so we will have to bite the bullet at some point, unless there is hope of a vaccine on the horizon.

Either that or go communist and let the state handle everything, including pay people to stay at home.

 

[Yossarian]

Governments are flaffing about trying to look for ways to bring the pandemic uncle control. But no one's is prepared to say out loud the obvious. It is being said that covid-19 primary spreads indoors, especially when social distancing is not being observed. And amongst the main places that occurs is in bars, restaurants, cafes, restaurants, cinemas etc.

If so, regardless of what the government does or does not do, in terms of lock-downs, restrictions, how many can be together at a wedding, or cafe or restaurant, the fact of the matter is that the vast majority of infections are occurring because thick, gormless, morons are not taking the necessary precautions!

The govt. should not need to tell them to that. They should use their own grey matter and do it without being told to do so.

Furthermore, right now, no one NEEDS to go to a bar, or cafe, or restaurant, or theatre, or cinema. Flipping well eat and drink at home! Then socialise to your hearts content when it's all under control.

Of course there are many who are doing everything they can, but still get infected. eg The elderly in care homes.

But if the thicko morons took a little more care, then it will allow the authorities to concentrate their efforts on keep safe those that are most vulnerable.

Rant over.

bump

 

[Yossarian]

I do understand. But unless there is a successful vaccine, this covid-19 is not going to go away. As appears to be the case at the moment, it is going to get worse, much worse. Sure, the young and healthy will be fine, but what about everyone else? Should we just wait for them to eventually become covid-19 positive, kick the bucket, and problem solved.

In the absence of a successful vaccine, there simply is no other option other than a full lockdown. The longer that is deferred, the more will die in the meantime.

It would appear that the scientists advising the government agree.

 

[Gabbar Singh]

In the absence of a successful vaccine, there simply is no other option other than a full lockdown. The longer that is deferred, the more will die in the meantime..

You want us to lockdown until a vaccine is found? Good luck with that because we could all be waiting years for a successful and safe vaccine to be found.

 

[James]

Even if a vaccine becomes available early next year, as has been mooted, it would take months and years for the full population to be vaccinated — presumably in descending stages of “most vulnerable first”. The whole world can’t just go into suspended animation for years on end.

 

[Yossarian]

Even if a vaccine becomes available early next year, as has been mooted, it would take months and years for the full population to be vaccinated — presumably in descending stages of “most vulnerable first”. The whole world can’t just go into suspended animation for years on end.

You want us to lockdown until a vaccine is found? Good luck with that because we could all be waiting years for a successful and safe vaccine to be found.

Who's talking about 'years' on end? The scientific advice regarding a full lockdown is a lockdown as a 'circuit breaker', in order to allow Track & Trace and other measures to bring it under control.
What's the alternative?
Let it go on spreading exponentially, until most of the vulnerable and elderly catch it and kick the bucket?

I'm betting that neither of you have had a friend or close relative die due to the virus. Furthermore, I'm betting that your attitude would have been completely different had you lost a friend or relative to covid-19.

 

[Gayle_Force]

Who's talking about 'years' on end? The scientific advice regarding a full lockdown is a lockdown as a 'circuit breaker', in order to allow Track & Trace and other measures to bring it under control.
What's the alternative?
Let it go on spreading exponentially, until most of the vulnerable and elderly catch it and kick the bucket?

I'm betting that neither of you have had a friend or close relative die due to the virus. Furthermore, I'm betting that your attitude would have been completely different had you lost a friend or relative to covid-19.

You still have not provided any solution for all the families that will come to streets as a result of the lockdown.

Also, I don’t understand why a full lockdown is the only answer? Why can’t you just have a targeted lockdown where only the vulnerable are locked down? and the rest of the people can go about their business, with social distancing and masks etc of course.

 

[Star_Coffee]

We have to learn to live with it and carry on with life but it does not translate into going to pubs without masks or a Pakistani kind of wedding with thousands of guests or any large gathering.

Follow the guideline, keep your distance, wear a mask, and wash your hands.

Despite all of that cases still spike up then lock down become necessary to prevent further spread.

It is a common-sense basic science.

 

[James]

Who's talking about 'years' on end? The scientific advice regarding a full lockdown is a lockdown as a 'circuit breaker', in order to allow Track & Trace and other measures to bring it under control.
What's the alternative?
Let it go on spreading exponentially, until most of the vulnerable and elderly catch it and kick the bucket?

I'm betting that neither of you have had a friend or close relative die due to the virus. Furthermore, I'm betting that your attitude would have been completely different had you lost a friend or relative to covid-19.

Nice bit of attempted emotional blackmail to close your reply there. Frankly that is not a relevant point in the context of what I’m hoping can remain a grown-up discussion.

The decisions that are made over the next 12-18 months around Covid will affect the whole world and impact upon hundreds of millions of people. These decisions have to be considered rationally and impartially, with the totality of society in mind.

Society includes the small to medium sized business owners, whose livelihoods are already being dismantled and a further full lockdown could completely destroy — and then the jobs and livelihoods of their many employees would be destroyed along with this.

What would be left?

Not much progression to be gained out of permanently staying at home if people don’t have jobs to go back to, and their monthly salary packets which pay their bills and mortgages stop coming in. Leading to mass homelessness and poverty. At which point people would get much more ill and diseased anyway.

 

[Gabbar Singh]

Who's talking about 'years' on end?

You are the one who said “ In the absence of a successful vaccine, there simply is no other option other than a full lockdown.”. Well there’s going to be an absence of a vaccine for many months if not years to come.

All this talk of ‘circuit breakers’ or ‘fire breakers’ is all well a good but then what? And governments around the world have already started to extend these so called temporary lockdowns. 2 weeks becomes 4 weeks becomes 8 weeks and more.

If you really are so terrified of the current situation perhaps just lock yourself and your family down until it’s all over. Those who don’t feel like you should be given a choice about what to do. Sure socially distance, wear masks, avoid the elderly and vulnerable but a full lockdown? No thanks.

 

[Manunited18]

No way we need another national lockdown, the emotional stress and countless other issues it causes.
We need to learn to live with it.

 

[Technics 1210]

Shutting down Bars, Cinemas, Cafes etc has a parallel effect to just economics - mental well being.

Just a trip to your local Cafe can clear your head and help keep people sane during this debacle of a lockdown.

 

[Gabbar Singh]

[MENTION=4930]Yossarian[/MENTION] sorry if you’ve lost someone close to you to covid bro, it must have been horrible.

However, it sounds like you are letting your emotions get in the way of looking at this situation rationally.

 

[Gabbar Singh]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The virus is a real threat and we all have to take it seriously but we can't ignore the devastation caused by lockdowns.<br><br>This is not an argument for a fundamental shift in strategy, those debates have been had. <br><br>This article is my plea for more balance.<a href="https://t.co/Rh0lq8OpYH">https://t.co/Rh0lq8OpYH</a></p>— Professor Karol Sikora (@ProfKarolSikora) <a href="https://twitter.com/ProfKarolSikora/status/1318169748933398529?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 19, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Yossarian]

Nice bit of attempted emotional blackmail to close your reply there. Frankly that is not a relevant point in the context of what I’m hoping can remain a grown-up discussion.

Not a relevant point? Just ask those who have lost a friend or family member due to covid-19 whether it's relevant or not . Where they've not even been allowed to attend the funeral. Oh wait ... to the likes of you they're just 'collateral damage' as long as you can gulp your drink in pubs, clubs and bars. That is until your own friend or loved one dies due to covid-19, and you can't even attend their funeral. You'll change your tune pretty quick then.

 

[Rana]

Joke thread

If you want to stay at home to feel safe, do it. Don’t force others to live that life of hell and misery.

 

[James]

Not a relevant point? Just ask those who have lost a friend or family member due to covid-19 whether it's relevant or not . Where they've not even been allowed to attend the funeral. Oh wait ... to the likes of you they're just 'collateral damage' as long as you can gulp your drink in pubs, clubs and bars. That is until your own friend or loved one dies due to covid-19, and you can't even attend their funeral. You'll change your tune pretty quick then.

You seem to be stuck in a rut of selectively quoting, and basing your arguments entirely on an emotional angle, also blatantly ignoring the many pertinent points being raised by numerous posters.

We’ve already seen earlier this year how you were completely wrong in your vehement opposition to the return of the Premier League, which turned out to be entirely a safe endeavour and a huge success in general. You have yet to acknowledge that you were 100% in the wrong to oppose this move.

Process your clearly strong negative emotions and reflect. Then come back when you’re ready to have a proper discussion about this topic.

 

[Varun]

Hey Yossarian, also channel part of your anger to the dim Chinese bimbos who made this happen in the first place.

 

[Yossarian]

You seem to be stuck in a rut of selectively quoting, and basing your arguments entirely on an emotional angle, also blatantly ignoring the many pertinent points being raised by numerous posters.

We’ve already seen earlier this year how you were completely wrong in your vehement opposition to the return of the Premier League, which turned out to be entirely a safe endeavour and a huge success in general. You have yet to acknowledge that you were 100% in the wrong to oppose this move.

Process your clearly strong negative emotions and reflect. Then come back when you’re ready to have a proper discussion about this topic.

Oh gee whiz.. He's now comparing people's friends and loved one's dying due to covid-19 with the Premier League returning.

 

[Yossarian]

Hey Yossarian, also channel part of your anger to the dim Chinese bimbos who made this happen in the first place.

No one deliberately 'made' it happen. Although I do agree that keeping animals in those conditions is a recipe for disaster, animals that aren't fit for human consumption.

Having said that, note how in those countries that took tough action straight away has led to a fraction of the infections and deaths per capita compared with those that didn't.

 

[Gabbar Singh]

Public policy cannot be decided on the basis of whether or not someone has lost a loved one to covid. It’s like saying that because Boris or Trump caught Covid their opinions on public health are now more valid than a Merkel or a Macron. It’s melodramatic nonsense.

 

[James]

Public policy cannot be decided on the basis of whether or not someone has lost a loved one to covid. It’s like saying that because Boris or Trump caught Covid their opinions on public health are now more valid than a Merkel or a Macron. It’s melodramatic nonsense.

Quoted for truth.

 

[James]

Oh gee whiz.. He's now comparing people's friends and loved one's dying due to covid-19 with the Premier League returning.

You’re a sanctimonious, immature and unconvincing fool.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

I've lost two loved ones to Covid. They both had underlying health concerns and the families aren't totally convinced that they died "because of covid". Close members of my family have suffered from it and recovered also.

I think our country has handled it incredibly poorly. There has been mixed messages right from the start and we are stuck in the middle between supposedly saving the economy and saving lives, going back and forth in this loop over and over again. A full lockdown at the start would have been ideal, but it seemed like almost every organisation became a "key worker". My mates were still working in call centres selling car insurance because their managers told them NHS workers needed insurance.

From this we have been in a continuous limbo.
Our government has failed miserably and has decided to dump the blame at the feet of the ordinary punter.

 

[Yossarian]

You’re a sanctimonious, immature and unconvincing fool.

So says the poster who compares deaths of friends and loved one's due to covid-19 (at least 44,661 thus far, with hundreds more each and every day) with the return of the Premier League.

 

[James]

So says the poster who compares deaths of friends and loved one's due to covid-19 (at least 44,661 thus far, with hundreds more each and every day) with the return of the Premier League.

There was no such comparison made.

The point was in reference to your own poor judgment in the past, and the lack of humility that you have displayed when you have turned out to be comprehensively wrong.

 

[Technics 1210]

I really wish some of you were alive/aware when the AIDS/HIV epidemic broke out in the 80s. At a time when there was no social media, no internet, no confirmed information, no idea of the virus that - it was fearmongering at another level, and the NHS was better funded, operated, and staffed - yet we survived.

C19 pandemic is a summer picnic.

 

[Yossarian]

Public policy cannot be decided on the basis of whether or not someone has lost a loved one to covid. It’s like saying that because Boris or Trump caught Covid their opinions on public health are now more valid than a Merkel or a Macron. It’s melodramatic nonsense.

A single Iranian born British Citizen under arrest in Iran on charges of spying (which may or may not be true, although I suspect they are true) can affect UK's foreign policy towards that country, but the deaths of over 44,000 due to covid-19 of its own citizens, a death toll rising by the hundreds every single day, shouldn't affect public policy? What world are you living in? How many deaths should it take?

 

[Yossarian]

I really wish some of you were alive/aware when the AIDS/HIV epidemic broke out in the 80s. At a time when there was no social media, no internet, no confirmed information, no idea of the virus that - it was fearmongering at another level, and the NHS was better funded, operated, and staffed - yet we survived.

C19 pandemic is a summer picnic.

Don't you think that the method of transmission AIDS/HIV versus Covid-19 has a lot to do with it?

 

[James]

The Excess Death Rate compiled by the European Union is currently at a stable level compared to previous years across almost all European countries.

The only period where there was a spike in this data was April 2020. That truly was the peak point of the virus.

In most cases the Excess Death Rate for Q3 & Q4 is actually below the baseline of expected excess deaths. (And wouldn’t you know it — the UK is one of these “below baseline” countries.)

In March and April, things were undoubtedly very tough. Now however, much of the talk of a second wave and a creeping terror has been overstated.

The facts, figures and data all prove this.

 

[Technics 1210]

Don't you think that the method of transmission AIDS/HIV versus Covid-19 has a lot to do with it?

At the time no one had any idea of how the AIDS/HIV virus was transmitted.

Very easy to use hindsight.

 

[Yossarian]

At the time no one had any idea of how the AIDS/HIV virus was transmitted.

Very easy to use hindsight.

I think most people had a pretty good idea as to how it was transmitted.

 

[Technics 1210]

I think most people had a pretty good idea as to how it was transmitted.

Easy to say now; back then no one knew what was going on. Hence it was classed as an Epidemic (not pandemic).

 

[IMMY69]

The Excess Death Rate compiled by the European Union is currently at a stable level compared to previous years across almost all European countries.

The only period where there was a spike in this data was April 2020. That truly was the peak point of the virus.

In most cases the Excess Death Rate for Q3 & Q4 is actually below the baseline of expected excess deaths. (And wouldn’t you know it — the UK is one of these “below baseline” countries.)

In March and April, things were undoubtedly very tough. Now however, much of the talk of a second wave and a creeping terror has been overstated.

The facts, figures and data all prove this.

How much is that down to effective medicine preventing higher mortality?

 

[Gabbar Singh]

The 2017/18 winter saw 50,100 excess deaths in England and Wales and it was put down to the influenza virus - unless it’s headline news like covid is I think we sometimes forget just how many people are dying around us each year. Yet life goes on for the majority....as it should.

 

[Yossarian]

Easy to say now; back then no one knew what was going on. Hence it was classed as an Epidemic (not pandemic).

Lets not compare something that can only be transmitted (ie HIV) by coming into contact with specific bodily fluids of someone living with the virus (e.g. blood, semen, breast milk),
as opposed to

COVID-19 is caused by the SARS-CoV-2 virus, which spreads between people, mainly when an infected person is in close contact with another person.

The virus can spread from an infected person’s mouth or nose in small liquid particles when they cough, sneeze, speak, sing or breathe heavily. These liquid particles are different sizes, ranging from larger ‘respiratory droplets’ to smaller ‘aerosols’.

Other people can catch COVID-19 when the virus gets into their mouth, nose or eyes, which is more likely to happen when people are in direct or close contact (less than 1 metre apart) with an infected person.

Current evidence suggests that the main way the virus spreads is by respiratory droplets among people who are in close contact with each other.

Aerosol transmission can occur in specific settings, particularly in indoor, crowded and inadequately ventilated spaces, where infected person(s) spend long periods of time with others, such as restaurants, choir practices, fitness classes, nightclubs, offices and/or places of worship. More studies are underway to better understand the conditions in which aerosol transmission is occurring outside of medical facilities where specific medical procedures, called aerosol generating procedures, are conducted.

The virus can also spread after infected people sneeze, cough on, or touch surfaces, or objects, such as tables, doorknobs and handrails. Other people may become infected by touching these contaminated surfaces, then touching their eyes, noses or mouths without having cleaned their hands first.

https://www.who.int/news-room/q-a-detail/coronavirus-disease-covid-19-how-is-it-transmitted

 

[Technics 1210]

Lets not compare something that can only be transmitted (ie HIV) by coming into contact with specific bodily fluids of someone living with the virus (e.g. blood, semen, breast milk),
as opposed to

I echo James comment. You clearly don't understand the difference in forming an opinion using hindsight. I bet you were,kt around in the 70s/80s either.

Go weep to WHO. These are the guys who advised world leaders on what to do, and messed up with C19. You can criticise the government, but they are not to blame for the loss of your loved one; it's the doctors and experts at WHO.

While you are at it, look up the word 'Panic'.

 

[Pakpak]

I've lost two loved ones to Covid. They both had underlying health concerns and the families aren't totally convinced that they died "because of covid". Close members of my family have suffered from it and recovered also.

I think our country has handled it incredibly poorly. There has been mixed messages right from the start and we are stuck in the middle between supposedly saving the economy and saving lives, going back and forth in this loop over and over again. A full lockdown at the start would have been ideal, but it seemed like almost every organisation became a "key worker". My mates were still working in call centres selling car insurance because their managers told them NHS workers needed insurance.

From this we have been in a continuous limbo.
Our government has failed miserably and has decided to dump the blame at the feet of the ordinary punter.

Spot on. I have had 2 deaths in the extended family and 3 in our social circle. 2 of them doctors too sadly. The government has handled it very poorly. There has been no consistency in any policy and Boris has been flip flopping day after day. And nor have they managed it well when it comes to properly screening migrants entering the UK. I have travelled just last week due to obligations and there was NOONE checking at the airport whether people have filled their forms or not. It's all down to the government who had no coherent policy. When Pakistan managed it reasonably well then UK had no excuse.

 

[James]

The 2017/18 winter saw 50,100 excess deaths in England and Wales and it was put down to the influenza virus - unless it’s headline news like covid is I think we sometimes forget just how many people are dying around us each year. Yet life goes on for the majority....as it should.

The critical factor is “what is being reported”.

If 50,000 excess deaths a few winters ago had been widely reported upon, all over the news, social media and the internet, and had also been the primary concern of government policy, then the general public would have all become petrified of catching the flu.

When the truth is that the vast majority of people make a full recovery from the flu. The same is statistically true of Covid as well — although the mortality rate is slightly here with Covid, >96% recovery rate is still a very good prognosis for a deadly virus.

If it started being reported on endlessly and in the most ubiquitous possible fashion every day, in each and every corner of the relentless news cycle, as to how many people were dying from flu; or even, how many people were/are dying from lifestyle & obesity-related conditions such as cancer, heart disease and diabetes — then worry and panic would rise about these conditions also.

 

[Pakpak]

The critical factor is “what is being reported”.

If 50,000 excess deaths a few winters ago had been widely reported upon, all over the news, social media and the internet, and had also been the primary concern of government policy, then the general public would have all become petrified of catching the flu.

When the truth is that the vast majority of people make a full recovery from the flu. The same is statistically true of Covid as well — although the mortality rate is slightly here with Covid, >96% recovery rate is still a very good prognosis for a deadly virus.

If it started being reported on endlessly and in the most ubiquitous possible fashion every day, in each and every corner of the relentless news cycle, as to how many people were dying from flu; or even, how many people were/are dying from lifestyle & obesity-related conditions such as cancer, heart disease and diabetes — then worry and panic would rise about these conditions also.

The reason Covid is reported is because a lot of people do recover but after intensive care only. If there wasn't mass hysteria then NHS would be overwhelmed. As an example, one ward in the North West saw 60 cases in one night in A&E requiring immediate care and only 4 doctors. This is with restrictions. If it was free for all there would be thousands needing urgent care and NHS would absolutely collapse. There simply aren't enough resources for it. The mortality rate is also an issue. For influenza it's only 0.1 Vs 3 percent for Covid. That's not slightly more. That's more by a factor of 30. There are also vaccines available for influenza and none for covid. So there is no point comparing the two. I'm a doctor btw so I'm not speaking out of my rear end.

If it's managed sensibly it's fine, Pakistan did it so I'm baffled UK isn't able to.

 

[James]

The reason Covid is reported is because a lot of people do recover but after intensive care only. If there wasn't mass hysteria then NHS would be overwhelmed. As an example, one ward in the North West saw 60 cases in one night in A&E requiring immediate care and only 4 doctors. This is with restrictions. If it was free for all there would be thousands needing urgent care and NHS would absolutely collapse. There simply aren't enough resources for it. The mortality rate is also an issue. For influenza it's only 0.1 Vs 3 percent for Covid. That's not slightly more. That's more by a factor of 30. There are also vaccines available for influenza and none for covid. So there is no point comparing the two. I'm a doctor btw so I'm not speaking out of my rear end.

If it's managed sensibly it's fine, Pakistan did it so I'm baffled UK isn't able to.

A fair and informed reply.

Good to hear from a doctor on this.

 

[Gayle_Force]

You seem to be stuck in a rut of selectively quoting, and basing your arguments entirely on an emotional angle, also blatantly ignoring the many pertinent points being raised by numerous posters.

+1

OP seems emotionally invested in this and chooses to ignore any rational discussion on the topic. He either lacks understanding of the repercussions on the economy from lockdowns or just chooses to ignore them.

There is enough evidence to show a lockdown is not the answer. There is no point arguing anymore imo.

 

[Varun]

No one deliberately 'made' it happen. Although I do agree that keeping animals in those conditions is a recipe for disaster, animals that aren't fit for human consumption.

Oh, the slit eyes certainly did make it happen. By ignoring warning signs in years and decades past and using their power over the WHO to suppress information of the spread because they are dim and thick rolled into one.

 

[Kashmirilion]

Herd immunity with self isolating for the vulnerable is the best way forward imo.

 

[Yossarian]

There simply aren't enough resources for it. The mortality rate is also an issue. For influenza it's only 0.1 Vs 3 percent for Covid. That's not slightly more. That's more by a factor of 30. There are also vaccines available for influenza and none for covid. So there is no point comparing the two. I'm a doctor btw so I'm not speaking out of my rear end.

If it's managed sensibly it's fine, Pakistan did it so I'm baffled UK isn't able to.

But, unfortunately unlike you, others are 'speaking out of their rear end'. For example, as you've pointed out, by equating influenza mortality rates to those due to covid-19 when covid is 30 x higher than influenza

 

[Yossarian]

Oh, the slit eyes certainly did make it happen. By ignoring warning signs in years and decades past and using their power over the WHO to suppress information of the spread because they are dim and thick rolled into one.

The slit eyes? Really showing your racist tendencies there.

 

[Yossarian]

+1

OP seems emotionally invested in this and chooses to ignore any rational discussion on the topic. He either lacks understanding of the repercussions on the economy from lockdowns or just chooses to ignore them.

There is enough evidence to show a lockdown is not the answer. There is no point arguing anymore imo.

I do understand the repercussions of closing bars, pubs and clubs. And it won't be a disaster if that happens (as it now seems, based upon scientific advice, a partial lockdown will happen). Besides, unlike you, I value human life far more than the right of some to gobble their alcohol in a pub, bar or club, instead of at home.

 

[Gabbar Singh]

So those calling for a lockdown value human life and those who dare to offer a different opinion don’t. Is this really the level of debate we’ve come down to?

 

[James]

So those calling for a lockdown value human life and those who dare to offer a different opinion don’t. Is this really the level of debate we’ve come down to?

Yes, pretty much.

It is no longer viewed as possible to hold a balanced opinion, which takes all of the various factors into account and reaches a rational conclusion.

This is not an age of nuance.

 

[Colorblind Genius]

Governments are flaffing about trying to look for ways to bring the pandemic uncle control. But no one's is prepared to say out loud the obvious. It is being said that covid-19 primary spreads indoors, especially when social distancing is not being observed. And amongst the main places that occurs is in bars, restaurants, cafes, restaurants, cinemas etc.

If so, regardless of what the government does or does not do, in terms of lock-downs, restrictions, how many can be together at a wedding, or cafe or restaurant, the fact of the matter is that the vast majority of infections are occurring because thick, gormless, morons are not taking the necessary precautions!

The govt. should not need to tell them to that. They should use their own grey matter and do it without being told to do so.

Furthermore, right now, no one NEEDS to go to a bar, or cafe, or restaurant, or theatre, or cinema. Flipping well eat and drink at home! Then socialise to your hearts content when it's all under control.

Of course there are many who are doing everything they can, but still get infected. eg The elderly in care homes.

But if the thicko morons took a little more care, then it will allow the authorities to concentrate their efforts on keep safe those that are most vulnerable.

Rant over.

Actually something doesn’t seem right if you look at the bigger picture.

Two things have happened simultaneously.

1. The mortality rate has decreased. And this is primarily NOT because we have found Ramdesivir but strangely enough, we simply don’t see THAT many fatally sick patients checking into ER, to begin with.
Remember how it was in the first wave?
And I know this for a fact that I have spoken to at least 5 ER physicians who somewhat agree with this notion.
We are simply (and Thankfully) not seeing that many fatally sick Covid patients checking into the ERs, as we did in the first wave.

2. Yes there are gullible idiots but there are 100 and millions who actually ARE taking good precautions, yet the infection rate (that seem to have milder symptoms now) in the second wave looks worst than the first one.

Logically, we should’ve seen a flat or slow and gradual graph going up since many are now taking good precautions with a few who don’t - but this thing is going off the charts in the second wave.

 

[Yossarian]

Actually something doesn’t seem right if you look at the bigger picture.

Two things have happened simultaneously.

1. The mortality rate has decreased. And this is primarily NOT because we have found Ramdesivir but strangely enough, we simply don’t see THAT many fatally sick patients checking into ER, to begin with.
Remember how it was in the first wave?
And I know this for a fact that I have spoken to at least 5 ER physicians who somewhat agree with this notion.
We are simply (and Thankfully) not seeing that many fatally sick Covid patients checking into the ERs, as we did in the first wave.

2. Yes there are gullible idiots but there are 100 and millions who actually ARE taking good precautions, yet the infection rate (that seem to have milder symptoms now) in the second wave looks worst than the first one.

Logically, we should’ve seen a flat or slow and gradual graph going up since many are now taking good precautions with a few who don’t - but this thing is going off the charts in the second wave.

Could it possibly be due to the fact that, in the first phase, it was affecting the public generally, the young, the old, the healthy, those with health issues etc. But due to very limited info on the virus, and the fact that the young and healthy are often asymptomatic, or only have mild symptoms, it was mainly the elderly and those with health issues that were ending up in hospitals and dying? There was also the fear factor amongst all sections of the population. In addition, there was not the same level of resistance to lockdowns as is the case currently, which eventually led to the infection rates coming down.

Now, the fear factor within the elderly and disabled is still there. And they are taking precautions. Resulting in reduced infection and death rates within these groups.

But the young and healthy now know that they are highly unlikely to get sick and die, and their fear factor has gone. They now have the mentality "I'm going to be all right Jack even if I catch it".

I don't have the figures, but I'm betting that the vast majority of current positive tests that we are seeing every day, and rising, are of those who are young and/or healthy, and they are very unlikely to end up in hospital and die. Hence they are less likely to take precautions, and more likely to resist the closing of pubs, bars and clubs. Resulting in being very keen to play down the seriousness of the infection and death rates, and very keen to jump on the bandwagon of the argument that closing down pubs, bars and clubs will have an adverse affect on the economy. Many posters on here fit that very pattern as can be seen by their posts.

All of the above, taken together, could explain the relatively low mortality rates even though the covid-19 positive tests are rising fast

 

[sa88]

OP is symptomatic of our overly risk averse society. People die. Older people die more than younger people.

Now that appears to be a very callous statement but it is true. The average age of death from Covid-19 is 82. Below the age of 40, your chances of dying from Covid are vanishingly small. Even an 80 year old has a better than 90% chance of surviving covid.

As a society we need to strike a balance between managing covid, managing other aspects of health and managing the financial future of millions of people in our country. Millions of people missing treatment for cancers, diabetes and other serious illnesses should not be sacrificed just to manage covid in isolation. Likewise, the ability of people to put a roof over their family’s head and put food on the table shouldn’t be sacrificed either.

Ultimately if we continue to view the current crisis solely through the prism of covid cases, hospitalisations etc, we will do untold damage to society. Don’t be surprised if that creates a massive political backlash and further fuels polarisation and populism in societies.