Curious case of Indians and Pakistanis

[TM Riddle]

I have pretty much lived all my life in India and have never interacted with Pakistani Muslims (have a few Hindu cousins from across the border) in real life.

Many posters here though are from UK, US, Canada where I'm sure there's regular intermingling between the people of two nationalities considering the similar background and stuff.

After yesterday's controversial tweet from Afridi there seemed to have begun a majorly bitter contested cyber warfare between the Keyboard Warriors of the two Nations. Even I won't deny I felt little angry too and had to restrain myself from engaging in this futile exercise of mudslinging and what-aboutism.

My question to Overseas Pakistanis and Indians: How do you guys manage to interact with your Indian or Pakistani friends or work colleagues whenever such controversy erupts. Do you people fight in the similar fashion as many of you love to do on internet? Are punches and hurling abuses common?

Or this fake machoism and bravado is reserved for online world only and in the real world you are just like one of those pansies who only like to mind their own business and nothing else .

 

[English August]

I have pretty much lived all my life in India and have never interacted with Pakistani Muslims (have a few Hindu cousins from across the border) in real life.

Many posters here though are from UK, US, Canada where I'm sure there's regular intermingling between the people of two nationalities considering the similar background and stuff.

After yesterday's controversial tweet from Afridi there seemed to have begun a majorly bitter contested cyber warfare between the Keyboard Warriors of the two Nations. Even I won't deny I felt little angry too and had to restrain myself from engaging in this futile exercise of mudslinging and what-aboutism.

My question to Overseas Pakistanis and Indians: How do you guys manage to interact with your Indian or Pakistani friends or work colleagues whenever such controversy erupts. Do you people fight in the similar fashion as many of you love to do on internet? Are punches and hurling abuses common?

Or this fake machoism and bravado is reserved for online world only and in the real world you are just like one of those pansies who only like to mind their own business and nothing else .

Only Pakistanis I come across in NYC are Uber / taxi drivers. They generally mind their own business (not sure why you'd call them "pansies" for doing that though). Most of the time they're on their phone talking endlessly (presumably with their buddies -- which seems harmless enough thing to do).

So, yes, a lot of this faux outrage and name-calling is mostly an internet thing.

 

[Third_Umpire]

Can only speak for myself and my own experiences: some of my best friends are Indian, and they are the type of people who would laugh at this whole thing, just as I am. If you think about what's happened, Afridi tweeted something which he has every right to, and the way that the Indian media and ex-cricketers has reacted is nothing short of depraved behavior. My Indians friends would and do agree, and I accept and agree when the shoe is on the other foot.

The type of jignostic, myopic behavior that I see the majority of Indians (and some Pakistanis - yes I do firmly believe that Indians are more to be blamed in this regard than Pakistanis) is not how my Indian friends are. In fact, it is extremely rare that Pakistan or India even comes up between us...because at the end of the day, who really cares?

I stay away from the blind patriots, from India, Pakistan, or any other country in the world.

 

[TM Riddle]

Only Pakistanis I come across in NYC are Uber / taxi drivers. They generally mind their own business (not sure why you'd call them "pansies" for doing that though). Most of the time they're on their phone talking endlessly (presumably with their buddies -- which seems harmless enough thing to do).

So, yes, a lot of this faux outrage and name-calling is mostly an internet thing.

Never had any debate with them over Kashmir or in general enmity that exists between the two countries?

 

[KingKhanWC]

I grew up with Indians in the UK. Those who were born here and grew up here, dont care too much about politics in India, Modi, BJP, Kashmir etc. They see themselves as British with an Indian background.

Of course there are those who will not discuss this in the open.

 

[ManFan]

My best friend is an Indian Muslim and one of my closest co-workers/neighbors is an Indian Hindu. They are very nice and patriotic without being jingoistic. My best friend and I used to argue about who was better when we were young and naive but now we don’t even talk about it. Life is too short to worry over lines drawn on a map by colonizers 70 years ago.

 

[TM Riddle]

Can only speak for myself and my own experiences: some of my best friends are Indian, and they are the type of people who would laugh at this whole thing, just as I am. If you think about what's happened, Afridi tweeted something which he has every right to, and the way that the Indian media and ex-cricketers has reacted is nothing short of depraved behavior. My Indians friends would and do agree, and I accept and agree when the shoe is on the other foot.

The type of jignostic, myopic behavior that I see the majority of Indians (and some Pakistanis - yes I do firmly believe that Indians are more to be blamed in this regard than Pakistanis) is not how my Indian friends are. In fact, it is extremely rare that Pakistan or India even comes up between us...because at the end of the day, who really cares?

I stay away from the blind patriots, from India, Pakistan, or any other country in the world.

Good for you. Although I disagree with you when you say Indians tend to be more ultra patriotic. From my experience I have observed that people from both the sides are really emotional when it comes to defending the Izzat of their respective Nations.

 

[TM Riddle]

My best friend is an Indian Muslim and one of my closest co-workers/neighbors is an Indian Hindu. They are very nice and patriotic without being jingoistic. My best friend and I used to argue about who was better when we were young and naive but now we don’t even talk about it. Life is too short to worry over lines drawn on a map by colonizers 70 years ago.

True that bro.

 

[Third_Umpire]

Good for you. Although I disagree with you when you say Indians tend to be more ultra patriotic. From my experience I have observed that people from both the sides are really emotional when it comes to defending the Izzat of their respective Nations.

May have to agree to disagree. There is an undercurrent of "wanting to belong" in the way certainly the Indian media operates, but also many Indians (online or in person). A need to receive external validation that India is modern, prosperous, powerful, in vogue, etc. And this leads to disproportionate reactions particularly when it comes to Pakistan, but also to other things. This also leads to a lack of objectivity and being able to accept wrongs, or their own shortcomings; instead you are met with a highly defensive and childish response.

Some Pakistanis may behave like this, but generally Pakistanis tend to have much more sobered response. Pakistanis have other/different issues (eg. blinding religiosity at times) that Indians may not have -- but on the particular topic of emotional response, it may be more one-sided.

 

[ManFan]

True that bro.

Not to mention, that the Indian Muslim is agnostic and my other friend is a Croatian Catholic. He makes fun of my family/background all the time but in a lighthearted manner. Growing up in Queens, the most diverse county (perhaps in the world) certainly helps to embrace different cultures. Been extremely fortunate to grow up there.

 

[Syed1]

The Indians I have met in real life are alot more rational and they agree that not everything is Mahaan in Mera Bharat, they actually are open to list all that is wrong with India, heck some of them even concede that the Indian Army's actions in Kashmir are highly questionable.



However, the Indians we see here are fed on a daily dose of uber-nationalism (we got a glimpse of your media today) which makes them think that India is on the cusp of being a superpower and there are rivers of milk and honey flowing through it.

 

[English August]

Never had any debate with them over Kashmir or in general enmity that exists between the two countries?

Never any debate. Some of them, usually in a long ride from NYC to Philly, try to start a discussion once they've confirmed that I'm from India. Their opening gambit is usually along the lines of - "we should be friends, all these politicians on both sides are terrible etc." My usual response is: "let's not blame the politicians. Indians and Pakistanis essentially don't like each other, so should stop false pretenses about friendship." That usually shuts them up. I don't go overboard myself. After all that guy is driving the car!

Once I was sitting next to a Pakistani in the long Emirates flight from JFK to DXB. This guy started off by talking about poverty in India. In response, I rattled off stats after stats re. Pakistan. He realized very quickly that I knew more about Pakistani economy than he did (he was a NRP). That shut him up for good. (Consistent with what I see in PP -- every time I get into specifics, I'm met with silence or change of subject. For example, I asked for some basic details re. CPEC, and folks here got really upset.)

 

[TM Riddle]

The Indians I have met in real life are alot more rational and they agree that not everything is Mahaan in Mera Bharat, they actually are open to list all that is wrong with India, heck some of them even concede that the Indian Army's actions in Kashmir are highly questionable.



However, the Indians we see here are fed on a daily dose of uber-nationalism (we got a glimpse of your media today) which makes them think that India is on the cusp of being a superpower and there are rivers of milk and honey flowing through it.

Syed Bhaisab No offense but that's pretty rich coming from your side. You are one of those who proactively take part in these stupid discussions and really hard to reason with not to mention the irrational hate you often exhibit.

It takes two to tango you see.

 

[babajee]

The Indians I have met are more like [MENTION=134809]sensible-indian-fan[/MENTION] than [MENTION=76058]cricketjoshila[/MENTION]

 

[GBK_Fan]

Staying in the UK, this has been my limited experience with Pakistanis.
First/second generation Pakistani non-Muslims: They are usually not patriotic to Pakistan and are keen to get the remaining remnants of their families out of Pakistan. Almost all I have met are successful and have advanced degrees.
one guy had one of his less educated cousins move to India. He managed to bribe and get an Indian passport. Now he is trying to get the rest of his family across.

Second/third generation Pakistani Muslims: most of the ones I have bumped into have been uber or mini cab drivers or involved in the restaurant business. Most of them find it difficult to speak fluently in English. Overtly religious. Like to talk about politics and finance using airy concepts without any strong reasoning.

First generation Pakistani Muslims: Generally more liberal and well educated than their UK counterparts. Make it a point to disassociate themselves from the above group. One in my department is a bacon eating, beer drinking Muslim who happily gave up his Pakistani passport despite being allowed dual citizenship.

Again fairly limited experience and most I have had brief conversations with

 

[www787]

Never any debate. Some of them, usually in a long ride from NYC to Philly, try to start a discussion once they've confirmed that I'm from India. Their opening gambit is usually along the lines of - "we should be friends, all these politicians on both sides are terrible etc." My usual response is: "let's not blame the politicians. Indians and Pakistanis essentially don't like each other, so should stop false pretenses about friendship." That usually shuts them up. I don't go overboard myself. After all that guy is driving the car!

Once I was sitting next to a Pakistani in the long Emirates flight from JFK to DXB. This guy started off by talking about poverty in India. In response, I rattled off stats after stats re. Pakistan. He realized very quickly that I knew more about Pakistani economy than he did (he was a NRP). That shut him up for good. (Consistent with what I see in PP -- every time I get into specifics, I'm met with silence or change of subject. For example, I asked for some basic details re. CPEC, and folks here got really upset.)

arrogance and "I am better than you" in this post is very nauseating.

 

[Syed1]

Syed Bhaisab No offense but that's pretty rich coming from your side. You are one of those who proactively take part in these stupid discussions and really hard to reason with not to mention the irrational hate you often exhibit.

It takes two to tango you see.

I agree I do get sucked into the chest-thumping.... if you met me in real life you would find me to be alot more rational, however, I do not take well to people showing me neech a trait that is exhibited by alot of Indians on here. Case in point see the posts from English August just in this thread.

 

[TM Riddle]

I agree I do get sucked into the chest-thumping.... if you met me in real life you would find me to be alot more rational, however, I do not take well to people showing me neech a trait that is exhibited by alot of Indians on here. Case in point see the posts from English August just in this thread.

Chalo at least you admitted it. I appreciate that. And I agree Indians are no saints either. We are all at fault here.

 

[cricketjoshila]

arrogance and "I am better than you" in this post is very nauseating.

Agreed. I am not better than you, but that doesnt make me worse than you also.

 

[blue_champion]

The Pakistanis I have met in the USA especially recent migrants don’t seem to be the type who wear religion on their sleeve and they come across as if they kind of want to disassociate themselves as much as possible from Pakistan.

I don’t mean that in a mocking way

This could be due to the stigma Pakistan has in the USA in recent times.

I think recent migrants especially people who lived a chunk of their lives in Pakistan especially the educated ones just want to move forward.

These first gen Pakistanis I have met are very pleasant to talk to,funny and apart from the odd banter about cricket,one can easily forget that they are from a different country.

They enjoy the odd beer or wine(nothing wrong with that) and come across as very liberal.

What I have noticed though is the most Hijab wearing or beard/skull cap type Pakistanis are the 2nd generation ones.

That is what makes it so contradictory and confusing about Pakistanis living in the USA.

Surprisingly what I have noticed is that Indian Muslims who migrate to USA in recent times are a lot more religious than their Pakistan counterparts.

Anyway this is not a theory etched in stone. This is purely based on my observation and experiences.

 

[www787]

Agreed. I am not better than you, but that doesnt make me worse than you also.

It certainly doesn't.

 

[KingKhanWC]

The reality is those with Pakistani and Indian backgrounds in the UK get on well generally. Many have married each other, are good neighbours and good friends. We try not to discuss politics or human rights abuses 'back home'. But as I said there were conflicts in some areas such as Bham and Southall but this has stopped many years ago. I dont think this forum is a fair reflection of like/dislike between both as let's be honest, apart from rare posters like yourself many Indians come here to troll or worse insult Pakistan/Pakistani's (within the house rules).

 

[iHammad]

Totally normal. I have helped out many Indian students who are in junior years and they are very appreciative and thankful. They love hanging out with Pakistani friends and playing cricket and they themselves have told me that "you guys aren't like what we thought you were while back home."

 

[R3verse Swing]

I only have 1 Indian childhood friend, born in the UK, and he's a diamond geezer, and a few others, who laugh off events, and understand the realities. The rest of the Indians I know, born in the UK or migrated from India, are just wannabe warriors - the distinction here is Indian Hindus vs. Indian Muslims vs. Indian Sikhs.

In the past 10 years, Indians have piped up where I work and live, and just go on and on about India. I do not blame them, India has never had it so good from a global view point. Once seen as a cesspit, their arch rivals in bad light, now a growing economy. However, then you have Indian Hindus, boy oh boy, these guys just do not know when to stop. Since Modi came into power, these Indian Hindus have gone into overdrive. It is their moment after 1000 years of rule, let them have it is what I feel.

Indian Muslims, they seem to be more open minded, but they still defend India but not at all costs. They oppose BJP for example, have strong views of Pakistan and partition. Indian Sikhs, they are they only Indian demographic that hate India with a passion that I know of. On the topic of Kashmir, they hate the Indian army. They have not forgotten operation Bluestar. As a result, I get on with Indian Sikhs, more than Indian Hindus/Muslims. I still remember the day when Indian Sikhs hugged me when Pakistan won T20 WC in 2009, and when Pakistan beat India in CT17 - but ultimately religion always comes into it when chatting with Indians.

However, when topics like Cricket turn up, Indian Hindus and Muslims unite. It's all out verbals. There is no problem in this, but before CT17, Indians would ramble on like they invented the game and the game exists because of India. In fact, most of them only followed Indian cricket during the mid 00s when India started winning consistently. So in-depth debate is not even possible. Yet, after CT17 final, they were humbled, and now any time cricket is discussed, they look down with a smile, and think twice before going all guns blazing.

To me, my experience in the UK is Indians think they own the world, and the world exists because of them. This is the feeling I get, be it in real life, or social media. I guess this is down to centuries of oppression and the feeling of being recognised after all this time. This is not to say all Indians are bad, not at all, a handful are genuine people who have genuine love for humanity and talk of pre-partition days/unity – but the belief that both Pakistanis and Indians blame politicians for the divide, is just that, a myth. Deep down Muslims have an opinion of Hindus, and vice versa.

Once thing I would say for certain, at work, there is something about speaking to my Indian colleagues in Hindi/Urdu. What takes someone a week trying to explain, takes me an hour. There is a certain joy about speaking in a non-English language at work!

 

[Sirris]

Most people take on a totally different persona when on internet to begin with. Irrespective of their nationality.

 

[English August]

arrogance and "I am better than you" in this post is very nauseating.

I don't know which part of the post said "I'm better than you." OP asked me a question, I replied. Rest of it is your interpretation. I can't help it.

 

[Pakistanian]

I'm not anti Indian. I have gone out with Indian-American girls, most of them are quite liberal and open-minded. It's the nationalists that annoy me.

 

[TM Riddle]

I only have 1 Indian childhood friend, born in the UK, and he's a diamond geezer, and a few others, who laugh off events, and understand the realities. The rest of the Indians I know, born in the UK or migrated from India, are just wannabe warriors - the distinction here is Indian Hindus vs. Indian Muslims vs. Indian Sikhs.

In the past 10 years, Indians have piped up where I work and live, and just go on and on about India. I do not blame them, India has never had it so good from a global view point. Once seen as a cesspit, their arch rivals in bad light, now a growing economy. However, then you have Indian Hindus, boy oh boy, these guys just do not know when to stop. Since Modi came into power, these Indian Hindus have gone into overdrive. It is their moment after 1000 years of rule, let them have it is what I feel.

Indian Muslims, they seem to be more open minded, but they still defend India but not at all costs. They oppose BJP for example, have strong views of Pakistan and partition. Indian Sikhs, they are they only Indian demographic that hate India with a passion that I know of. On the topic of Kashmir, they hate the Indian army. They have not forgotten operation Bluestar. As a result, I get on with Indian Sikhs, more than Indian Hindus/Muslims. I still remember the day when Indian Sikhs hugged me when Pakistan won T20 WC in 2009, and when Pakistan beat India in CT17 - but ultimately religion always comes into it when chatting with Indians.

However, when topics like Cricket turn up, Indian Hindus and Muslims unite. It's all out verbals. There is no problem in this, but before CT17, Indians would ramble on like they invented the game and the game exists because of India. In fact, most of them only followed Indian cricket during the mid 00s when India started winning consistently. So in-depth debate is not even possible. Yet, after CT17 final, they were humbled, and now any time cricket is discussed, they look down with a smile, and think twice before going all guns blazing.

To me, my experience in the UK is Indians think they own the world, and the world exists because of them. This is the feeling I get, be it in real life, or social media. I guess this is down to centuries of oppression and the feeling of being recognised after all this time. This is not to say all Indians are bad, not at all, a handful are genuine people who have genuine love for humanity and talk of pre-partition days/unity – but the belief that both Pakistanis and Indians blame politicians for the divide, is just that, a myth. Deep down Muslims have an opinion of Hindus, and vice versa.

Once thing I would say for certain, at work, there is something about speaking to my Indian colleagues in Hindi/Urdu. What takes someone a week trying to explain, takes me an hour. There is a certain joy about speaking in a non-English language at work!

Never Knew Sikhs in UK hated India so much. Guess you learn something new everyday.
Also I couldn't really get the centuries of opression and finally getting recognized part. Can you please elaborate on it a bit more.

 

[Nostalgic]

My own experiences in the US, first at grad school and then in the workplace, have largely been negative. I now make it a point to steer well clear of the denizens of the Humsaaya Mulk. I will interact with them only if need be, and I've learnt over the years to keep my distance.

 

[TM Riddle]

My own experiences in the US, first at grad school and then in the workplace, have largely been negative. I now make it a point to steer well clear of the denizens of the Humsaaya Mulk. I will interact with them only if need be, and I've learnt over the years to keep my distance.

STOP LYING.
We all know deep down inside you are a big bollywood and Indian Sas Bahu dramas fan.

 

[R3verse Swing]

Also I couldn't really get the centuries of opression and finally getting recognized part. Can you please elaborate on it a bit more.

It is simple. Indians never had anything to boast about until recently, relatively speaking. Be it Cricket, Economy, or Politics - for years Indians have always blamed past rulers for their failures and worldwide perception - or lack of. This is why SRT is viewed as a God in India, because he provided recognition to India on a global scale. In other words, Indians have been playing the victim mentality card until recently. This gives them the reason to boast at every juncture. You only have to see on PP to realise this.

All of this is of course based on my personal experience, and like I said, I do not blame them.

 

[DeadBall]

My own experiences in the US, first at grad school and then in the workplace, have largely been negative. I now make it a point to steer well clear of the denizens of the Humsaaya Mulk. I will interact with them only if need be, and I've learnt over the years to keep my distance.

Good to see you steadily but surely treading the political waters again, and that too so close to a ban.

 

[Nostalgic]

Good to see you steadily but surely treading the political waters again, and that too so close to a ban.

I Walk The Line, a la Johnny Cash.

 

[TM Riddle]

It is simple. Indians never had anything to boast about until recently, relatively speaking. Be it Cricket, Economy, or Politics - for years Indians have always blamed past rulers for their failures and worldwide perception - or lack of. This is why SRT is viewed as a God in India, because he provided recognition to India on a global scale. In other words, Indians have been playing the victim mentality card until recently. This gives them the reason to boast at every juncture. You only have to see on PP to realise this.

All of this is of course based on my personal experience, and like I said, I do not blame them.

Oh so you were basing it on India's struggles after Independence and their recovery of sorts in last two decades?
If then, why mention the centuries of opression thing?

 

[www787]

One conclusion after interacting many Indian immigrants, most had preconceived imagination of how Pakistani are. It has to do with Indian media playing a big role in molding their thoughts toward Pakistani. Indian media is always on over drive whenever it has to do with Pakistan compare that with Pakistani media. A perfect example would be a recent example on how Indian media reacted to Afridi’s tweet.
Media forced most of the players and celebrities to respond, most probably would have ignored but when created premeditated hysteria they had to stay relevant and not get accused of not being patriotic.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Never Knew Sikhs in UK hated India so much. Guess you learn something new everyday.
Also I couldn't really get the centuries of opression and finally getting recognized part. Can you please elaborate on it a bit more.

Indian sikhs hate India. Yet 20% make up the Indian Army that they hate.

 

[Pakistanian]

Indian sikhs hate India. Yet 20% make up the Indian Army that they hate.

They're probably tired of being used to fight India's wars and being romanticized as warriors when they just want to be treated as humansm

 

[TM Riddle]

Indian sikhs hate India. Yet 20% make up the Indian Army that they hate.

Chalaak Sikhs

 

[TM Riddle]

They're probably tired of being used to fight India's wars and being romanticized as warriors when they just want to be treated as humansm

Makes sense.

 

[R3verse Swing]

Oh so you were basing it on India's struggles after Independence and their recovery of sorts in last two decades?

If then, why mention the centuries of opression thing?

No. I was basing the view on India's struggles before and after independence.

Indians still go on about how the Brits pillaged India for example.

 

[cricketjoshila]

It is simple. Indians never had anything to boast about until recently, relatively speaking. Be it Cricket, Economy, or Politics - for years Indians have always blamed past rulers for their failures and worldwide perception - or lack of. This is why SRT is viewed as a God in India, because he provided recognition to India on a global scale. In other words, Indians have been playing the victim mentality card until recently. This gives them the reason to boast at every juncture. You only have to see on PP to realise this.

All of this is of course based on my personal experience, and like I said, I do not blame them.

India won a World cup way back in 1983.Enough to boast about.

India could boast about stopping a genocide, alter the map of the world and create a new country way back in 1971. Not many countries can boast of creating a new country.

India followed a economic policy of giving Indians the rein to run the economy and trade and that has served us well. Indian companies now work on a global scale. We though were 6-7 years late in opening the economy.

But India didnot play the victim card.Neither is boasting a part of Indian culture but Indians do know how to put upstart chest thumpers in their places.

Wonder if India was the first country to gave a atomic bomb outside the UN P5.

Plenty to boast if we wanted to.

 

[R3verse Swing]

Indian sikhs hate India. Yet 20% make up the Indian Army that they hate.

Indian Sikhs living abroad. At least post relevance. Why is each one of your posts so defensive? 20% is also a bogus claim.

Indian Sikhs living in the UK have utter disdain for India. You think the Indian army can wipe their families off the face of the earth and they will forget? You are dreaming.

 

[cricketjoshila]

No. I was basing the view on India's struggles before and after independence.

Indians still go on about how the Brits pillaged India for example.

British pillaged lot of countries India Pakistan Bangladesh, countries in Africa and none of them praise the British for that.

 

[R3verse Swing]

India won a World cup way back in 1983.Enough to boast about.

India could boast about stopping a genocide, alter the map of the world and create a new country way back in 1971. Not many countries can boast of creating a new country.

India followed a economic policy of giving Indians the rein to run the economy and trade and that has served us well. Indian companies now work on a global scale. We though were 6-7 years late in opening the economy.

But India didnot play the victim card.Neither is boasting a part of Indian culture but Indians do know how to put upstart chest thumpers in their places.

Wonder if India was the first country to gave a atomic bomb outside the UN P5.

Plenty to boast if we wanted to.

See there you go boasting again, India first country to have an atomic bomb outside the UN P5? Good for you. People like your prove my perception. I was posting my experience in the UK, doubt you have ever set foot in the UK.

If you do not agree with my experience, then tough, deal with it.

 

[TM Riddle]

No. I was basing the view on India's struggles before and after independence.

Indians still go on about how the Brits raped and pillaged India for example.

Oh so you mean from the time around 19th century then? Fair enough.
But I vehemently disagree with your notion of Indians having inferiority complex seemingly because they never had anything before.
I would say We had a pretty good run for around 2000 years . Everybody loved cozying up and doing business with us so much so that when Ottomans tried to block the land route to India to the European merchants, they set upon finding a new sea route which would take them to the fabulous country and which eventually led to discovery of the new world in the process.

And I'm quite appalled by how casually you mentioned the raping and pillaging thing by the British. FYI, the parts of modern day Pakistan had to endure the same as well. Do you read history Bhai?

 

[R3verse Swing]

British pillaged lot of countries India Pakistan Bangladesh, countries in Africa and none of them praise the British for that.

Who said any of the nations praised the British for pillaging said countries? What post are you reading? I was pointing out very clearly that Indian continue to moan about the British, not letting the past go.

 

[TM Riddle]

Who said any of the nations praised the British for pillaging said countries? What post are you reading? I was pointing out very clearly that Indian continue to moan about the British, not letting the past go.

Native Americans also continue to moan about their supposed genocide at the hands of European colonialists which took place centuries ago.
Why can't they just let the past go as well?

 

[cricketjoshila]

Indian Sikhs living abroad. At least post relevance. Why is each one of your posts so defensive? 20% is also a bogus claim.

Indian Sikhs living in the UK have utter disdain for India. You think the Indian army can wipe their families off the face of the earth and they will forget? You are dreaming.

20% is a bogus claim? Sikhs make up 20% of Indian army officers and many have served as army chief.

I see 100s of 1000s of Indian Sikhs in the Indian army. So another of your claims fall flat that Indian Sikhs hate India or Indian army.

Ofcourse i cannot speak of some brit guy.

 

[R3verse Swing]

Oh so you mean from the time around 19th century then? Fair enough.
But I vehemently disagree with your notion of Indians having inferiority complex seemingly because they never had anything before.
I would say We had a pretty good run for around 2000 years . Everybody loved cozying up and doing business with us so much so that when Ottomans tried to block the land route to India to the European merchants, they set upon finding a new sea route which would take them to the fabulous country and which eventually led to discovery of the new world in the process.

And I'm quite appalled by how casually you mentioned the raping and pillaging thing by the British. FYI, the parts of modern day Pakistan had to endure the same as well. Do you read history Bhai?

Mentioned casually? How else should I mention it? It's a metaphorical phrase. Did you think I was referring to people? No, I was referring to resources. This is precisely what I was referring to above, the victim mentality. Pick up a history book in the UK, and these are the precise words are used, some even worse. The British Empire is considered by many, evil. It's no big secret the UK exists today on the back of the spoils of wars and riches from other nations.

The point however is, Pakistanis have moved on, Africa has moved on, USA has moved on, heck almost every country has moved on from the evils of the British empire, except for India. They still go on about it!

 

[R3verse Swing]

20% is a bogus claim? Sikhs make up 20% of Indian army officers and many have served as army chief.

I see 100s of 1000s of Indian Sikhs in the Indian army. So another of your claims fall flat that Indian Sikhs hate India or Indian army.

Ofcourse i cannot speak of some brit guy.

No evidence so I am not taking your word for it. It was your claim, not mine.

Also just because Sikhs have served as Army chiefs, doesn't mean 20% of Sikhs serve in the Indian army. This is twisted and desperate logic, though why you would defend the Indian army when you should be defending the Bangladeshi army is beyond me.

 

[cricketjoshila]

See there you go boasting again, India first country to have an atomic bomb outside the UN P5? Good for you. People like your prove my perception. I was posting my experience in the UK, doubt you have ever set foot in the UK.

If you do not agree with my experience, then tough, deal with it.

I have set foot in UK quite a few times. Never had any issues.

Indians mean Indians everywhere.

I couldnot care less about your perception which has been proved to be not so correct.

 

[cricketjoshila]

No evidence so I am not taking your word for it. It was your claim, not mine.

Also just because Sikhs have served as Army chiefs, doesn't mean 20% of Sikhs serve in the Indian army. This is twisted and desperate logic, though why you would defend the Indian army when you should be defending the Bangladeshi army is beyond me.

20% of Indian army is of sikh origin not 20% of sikhs serve in Indian army. Yo can google it. There is a reason why Sikhs are called the sword of India. Only recently did Hariyanvis surpass Sikhs the number of yearly pass outs from NDA.

 

[TM Riddle]

Mentioned casually? How else should I mention it? It's a metaphorical phrase. Did you think I was referring to people? No, I was referring to resources. This is precisely what I was referring to above, the victim mentality. Pick up a history book in the UK, and these are the precise words are used, some even worse. The British Empire is considered by many, evil. It's no big secret the UK exists today on the back of the spoils of wars and riches from other nations.

The point however is, Pakistanis have moved on, Africa has moved on, USA has moved on, heck almost every country has moved on from the evils of the British empire, except for India. They still go on about it!

Africa has moved on? Yeah tell that to their newspapers who keep on printing about Cecil Rhodes, King Leopold 2, Apartheid etc.

And re US, tell that to the Native Americans.

 

[R3verse Swing]

Native Americans also continue to moan about their supposed genocide at the hands of European colonialists which took place centuries ago.
Why can't they just let the past go as well?

I cannot speak for Native Americans, and I am referring to the British Empire anyway as I am pretty sure the Spanish are to blame for what initiated in America.

 

[DeadBall]

The point however is, Pakistanis have moved on, Africa has moved on, USA has moved on, heck almost every country has moved on from the evils of the British empire, except for India. They still go on about it!

Pakistan was still India at the time of the occupation and it won't make much sense moaning now as they would have to remind themselves that they were part of India at one time or another without any political benefits. It is more practical to have a better, bigger, closer and much more compatible enemy in India.

 

[R3verse Swing]

20% of Indian army is of sikh origin not 20% of sikhs serve in Indian army. Yo can google it. There is a reason why Sikhs are called the sword of India. Only recently did Hariyanvis surpass Sikhs the number of yearly pass outs from NDA.

Still no evidence.

I love how you changed your claim now. From 20% Sikhs serving to 20% Sikh origin in the Indian army.

Indian sikhs hate India. Yet 20% make up the Indian Army that they hate.

Like I said, your claim is bogus.

Keep up the good work.

 

[TM Riddle]

I cannot speak for Native Americans, and I am referring to the British Empire anyway as I am pretty sure the Spanish are to blame for what initiated in America.

You said about Indians hanging on to atrocities committeed by the British.
I gave you the example of Native Americans to show that not every community has forgotten the ills committeed on them centuries ago even though rest of the world seemed to have moved on.

 

[R3verse Swing]

Pakistan was still India at the time of the occupation and it won't make much sense moaning now as they would have to remind themselves that they were part of India at one time or another without any political benefits. It is more practical to have a better, bigger, closer and much more compatible enemy in India.

Not really the point.

While it is true my grandfather would speak of British rule in what is modern day Pakistan, Pakistan in general has moved on. Pakistanis born after 1947 do not really talk about British rule unlike Indians. Pakistanis definitely talk about India as the enemy etc, but not British rule. Pakistanis have learned to shrug off the stigma of British rule.

 

[TM Riddle]

Still no evidence.

I love how you changed your claim now. From 20% Sikhs serving to 20% Sikh origin in the Indian army.



Like I said, your claim is bogus.

Keep up the good work.

Sikhs do form a bulk of Indian army. He isn't exaggerating, It's a well known fact.

 

[R3verse Swing]

You said about Indians hanging on to atrocities committeed by the British.
I gave you the example of Native Americans to show that not every community has forgotten the ills committeed on them centuries ago even though rest of the world seemed to have moved on.

What? Indians, NOT AMERICAN RED-INDIANS.

Also Spanish are more responsible for American Indians, not the British Empire.

Like I said, I cannot speak for Native Americans. I am only going by MY EXPERIENCE!

 

[cricketjoshila]

Sikhs do form a bulk of Indian army. He isn't exaggerating, It's a well known fact.

But Sikhs hate India bhai. Uska narrative kharab ho jaayega.

 

[TM Riddle]

What? Indians, NOT AMERICAN RED-INDIANS.

Also Spanish are more responsible for American Indians, not the British Empire.

Like I said, I cannot speak for Native Americans. I am only going by MY EXPERIENCE!

Arey mere bhai I was only trying to correlate it with the Native American issue.
They are still quite vocal about their systemic killings at the hands of Europeans even though it had been like 4 or 5 centuries.
When they can, Why can't Indians who got Independence from Britain only 70 years ago.

 

[TM Riddle]

But Sikhs hate India bhai. Uska narrative kharab ho jaayega.

Khalistan movement has been long dead. But whatever helps people sleep better at night.

 

[R3verse Swing]

Sikhs do form a bulk of Indian army. He isn't exaggerating, It's a well known fact.

He is not exaggerating, he is lying.

1.7% of the demographic making up 20% of the Army? Yeah right!

He also changed his claim midway through this thread.

He will not accept that Sikhs in the UK have utter disdain for India, and this shatters the secular/Indian unity perception he promotes. Not that India matters to him anyway.

I bet you he is still searching for evidence on Google.

 

[DeadBall]

Not really the point.

While it is true my grandfather would speak of British rule in what is modern day Pakistan, Pakistan in general has moved on. Pakistanis born after 1947 do not really talk about British rule unlike Indians. Pakistanis definitely talk about India as the enemy etc, but not British rule. Pakistanis have learned to shrug off the stigma of British rule.

That is because there was still no Pakistan at the time. Pakistan broke free and cannot in all earnest bellyache about the British. Maybe you should re read the reason I suggested again.

 

[cricketjoshila]

He is not exaggerating, he is lying.

1.7% of the demographic making up 20% of the Army? Yeah right!

He also changed his claim midway through this thread.

He will not accept that Sikhs in the UK have utter disdain for India, and this shatters the secular/Indian unity perception he promotes. Not that India matters to him anyway.

I bet you he is still searching for evidence on Google.

Sikh population is close to 21mn in India. 20% of active army of 1.3mn will be 260000 whats impossible in that?

 

[R3verse Swing]

That is because there was still no Pakistan at the time. Pakistan broke free and does cannot in all earnest bellyache about the British. Maybe you should re read the reason I suggested again.

Born after 1947 Pakistanis do not moan about the British in my experience. What does this have to do with no Pakistan pre 1947?

 

[R3verse Swing]

Khalistan movement has been long dead. But whatever helps people sleep better at night.

Not in the UK, Sikhs continue to talk about Khalistan movement.

 

[TM Riddle]

Not in the UK, Sikhs continue to talk about Khalistan movement.

Maybe a few do but I refuse to believe that each one of them is a Khalistani Sympathizer. Not a chance.

 

[R3verse Swing]

Arey mere bhai I was only trying to correlate it with the Native American issue.
They are still quite vocal about their systemic killings at the hands of Europeans even though it had been like 4 or 5 centuries.
When they can, Why can't Indians who got Independence from Britain only 70 years ago.

Why though? We are discussing Pakistan/India.

Why is it the first line of defence from an Indian something along the lines of - Oh they do it so can we?

 

[cricketjoshila]

Not in the UK, Sikhs continue to talk about Khalistan movement.

They can make Khalistan in UK. Thats not Indias concern.

What do you say [MENTION=130700]TM Riddle[/MENTION]

 

[R3verse Swing]

Maybe a few do but I refuse to believe that each one of them is a Khalistani Sympathizer. Not a chance.

It's not about each and every one of them, it about a majority.

Next time you are in London, you should visit Southall. There was also a report a few years back that some Sikh Gudwara's in the UK are promoting Khalistan movement. Why? Modi and the rise of Hindutva in India.

 

[Eagle_Eye]

Sikhs do form a bulk of Indian army. He isn't exaggerating, It's a well known fact.

Also a well known fact is that sikhs formed a good chunk of the British Indian Army..... does that mean they were all for the Raj?

 

[Third_Umpire]

Never any debate. Some of them, usually in a long ride from NYC to Philly, try to start a discussion once they've confirmed that I'm from India. Their opening gambit is usually along the lines of - "we should be friends, all these politicians on both sides are terrible etc." My usual response is: "let's not blame the politicians. Indians and Pakistanis essentially don't like each other, so should stop false pretenses about friendship." That usually shuts them up. I don't go overboard myself. After all that guy is driving the car!

Once I was sitting next to a Pakistani in the long Emirates flight from JFK to DXB. This guy started off by talking about poverty in India. In response, I rattled off stats after stats re. Pakistan. He realized very quickly that I knew more about Pakistani economy than he did (he was a NRP). That shut him up for good. (Consistent with what I see in PP -- every time I get into specifics, I'm met with silence or change of subject. For example, I asked for some basic details re. CPEC, and folks here got really upset.)

Some luck, you’ve always seemed to run into Pakistanis who want to talk politics. Usually I just shoot the sh*t with my Indian uber and taxi drivers, talking about food, music or cricket. Specially if they are from Delhi, Punjab or elsewhere in Northern India. Even with my drivers have I never talked politics. Maybe it’s a personality thing

 

[Eagle_Eye]

That is because there was still no Pakistan at the time. Pakistan broke free and cannot in all earnest bellyache about the British. Maybe you should re read the reason I suggested again.

Are you implying that the people in these parts had it easy?

 

[DeadBall]

Are you implying that the people in these parts had it easy?

No, what I am implying is that they were part of the same parts at the time.

 

[ahsan17]

Never any debate. Some of them, usually in a long ride from NYC to Philly, try to start a discussion once they've confirmed that I'm from India. Their opening gambit is usually along the lines of - "we should be friends, all these politicians on both sides are terrible etc." My usual response is: "let's not blame the politicians. Indians and Pakistanis essentially don't like each other, so should stop false pretenses about friendship." That usually shuts them up. I don't go overboard myself. After all that guy is driving the car!

Once I was sitting next to a Pakistani in the long Emirates flight from JFK to DXB. This guy started off by talking about poverty in India. In response, I rattled off stats after stats re. Pakistan. He realized very quickly that I knew more about Pakistani economy than he did (he was a NRP). That shut him up for good. (Consistent with what I see in PP -- every time I get into specifics, I'm met with silence or change of subject. For example, I asked for some basic details re. CPEC, and folks here got really upset.)

Yes, because you want to reduce the entire CPEC to 2 figures, which we don't want to do for reasons we've explained over and over again (reasons you don't seem to comprehend) you must be smarter than the rest of us.

And FYI - it IS true that poverty in India is 3 times as high as Pakistan. Why would you try to deny that?

 

[English August]

Some luck, you’ve always seemed to run into Pakistanis who want to talk politics. Usually I just shoot the sh*t with my Indian uber and taxi drivers, talking about food, music or cricket. Specially if they are from Delhi, Punjab or elsewhere in Northern India. Even with my drivers have I never talked politics. Maybe it’s a personality thing

You need to read the full thread (at least my posts) before jumping to conclusions. I never said I end up talking politics with all of them. I said exactly the opposite! I said most of them keep themselves to themselves and continue talking on the phone which is fine by me.

When they do talk, they seem to be interested in my background and then start talking nonsense about bhaichara between India and Pakistan.

 

[Eagle_Eye]

No, what I am implying is that they were part of the same parts at the time.

Then why does the part that was comparatively more well off have more reason to complain?

 

[R3verse Swing]

And FYI - it IS true that poverty in India is 3 times as high as Pakistan. Why would you try to deny that?

The reason is simple, it damages a fragile perception of India worldwide.

The average Indian in the UK has very little knowledge of the Indian economy, and prefers not to speak of the realities of India such as poverty, education, and health. BBC on FB is a shining example of this phenomena as is The Times UK.

Indians in the UK have little idea of what India's GDP is for example, or India's largest exports/imports, but they have a good idea of how many live in abject poverty, how many are uneducated, the situation with national health, and other social issues like caste/religious based violence/killings.

However Indians choose not to discuss these points in my experience, and try to divert the discussion by talking about external threats to India such as CPEC or just talk about the one pseudo positive of India that is the economy, because it's easier to say and impress others by saying India is one of the fastest growing economies in the world than trying to explain how 100 of Millions struggle in India despite the riches or how someone in India can get killed because of their caste.