Current crop of Pakistan Test spinners in home conditions

[Amjid Javed]

One thing which stood out for pakistan playing tests in the UAE was that it allowed for spin bowling to form a prominent part of its bowling attack, also add to the fact we either had quality fast bowlers banned (Asif, Amir) or are fast bowling stocks werent as high quality as they use to be.

In pakistani conditions its a little bit different unless uve be an Abdul qadir, Mushtaq Ahmed or saqlain mushtaq and had sucsess.

In pakistan we get one of two surfaces - "A road" where no bowlers get success or we get a surface where its good for batting early on and then on days 4/5 we get reverse swing for quicks and spin/turn for the spinners.

You simply arent going to get a moon dust wicket like you see in india, sri lanka or Bangladesh.

So with this is mind pakistan need to find ideal spinners to fill their bowling attack where in the 1st inns they can contain batsmen and 2nd inns possible win the game for the team. Yasir Shah is on his last legs, nauman/Sajid khan are good honest bowlers but nothing more then that. Also with restricted venues at the moment for series (rawalpindi/karachi and lahore) host tests none of these grounds have traditionally really helped spinners that much. Pakistan either need to get creative with their curators if they want to bank on spinners to help them win games in 2nd half of a test match. Also we need to domestically start producing possible world class spinners again. im sure a lot of people can roll of a few names of domestic spinners but, reality is theres no one who looks like a world beater. Pakistans strength will remain in its pace bowlers, spin does need to start helping out. We have this series in Australia, england and new zealand to come as well.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I think Mohammad Nawaz should seriously be looked at as a long-term option after he comes back from injury. He has done incredibly well in QeA Trophy cricket with both bat and ball and has now improved enough with the bat to be considered as a proper all-rounder.

On top of that, he is very fit, a good fielder and someone who can can be highly successful on Pakistani surfaces. Because he can contain runs, take wickets and play a supporting role to the pace-attack. And his batting ability would allow Pakistan to possibly select another batsman or fast-bowler too.

 

[hitthestump]

I think Mohammad Nawaz should seriously be looked at as a long-term option after he comes back from injury. He has done incredibly well in QeA Trophy cricket with both bat and ball and has now improved enough with the bat to be considered as a proper all-rounder.

On top of that, he is very fit, a good fielder and someone who can can be highly successful on Pakistani surfaces. Because he can contain runs, take wickets and play a supporting role to the pace-attack. And his batting ability would allow Pakistan to possibly select another batsman or fast-bowler too.

I want Shadab for the same reasons, except he adds even more variation to the bowling attack. He obviously isn't good enough to be the main spinner but behind Sajid and Nauman i think he can more than do a job.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Shadab needs to start playing more FC cricket because he too should be a mainstay in the test team at some point. He is too good of a cricketer to only be playing limited-overs cricket. And let's be real, there are few things better than having a performing leg-spinner in your line-up in test cricket. Because leg-spinners can make things happen even on unhelpful surfaces.

The sad reality is that Pakistan simply does not have enough young spinners who can be invested in right now because they are not ready for test cricket. And this has been a trend for quite some time now. The best spinners in Pakistan usually tend to be guys like Nauman, Sajid, Kashif Bhatti and in the past, Abdul Rehman, Zulfiqar Babar...guys well into their mid or late 30s.

Ahmed Safi Abdullah has been doing well in QeA Trophy cricket but again, I question how well he would do in test cricket. Which is why it makes sense to play these experienced domestic journeymen. Its a short-term strategy but they know how to bowl on Pakistani pitches.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

I want Shadab for the same reasons, except he adds even more variation to the bowling attack. He obviously isn't good enough to be the main spinner but behind Sajid and Nauman i think he can more than do a job.

I think we published our comments about Shadab at the same time. But yes, agree. Wrote about that above^

 

[Amjid Javed]

Shadab needs to start playing more FC cricket because he too should be a mainstay in the test team at some point. He is too good of a cricketer to only be playing limited-overs cricket. And let's be real, there are few things better than having a performing leg-spinner in your line-up in test cricket. Because leg-spinners can make things happen even on unhelpful surfaces.

The sad reality is that Pakistan simply does not have enough young spinners who can be invested in right now because they are not ready for test cricket. And this has been a trend for quite some time now. The best spinners in Pakistan usually tend to be guys like Nauman, Sajid, Kashif Bhatti and in the past, Abdul Rehman, Zulfiqar Babar...guys well into their mid or late 30s.

Ahmed Safi Abdullah has been doing well in QeA Trophy cricket but again, I question how well he would do in test cricket. Which is why it makes sense to play these experienced domestic journeymen. Its a short-term strategy but they know how to bowl on Pakistani pitches.

excellent points made in relation to best spinners domestically being the old timers who have learnt their trade over the long haul domestically. Also i think wickets generally domestically will help quicker bowlers more. PCB need to really think longterm and some how find a way to invest in younger spinners like uve mentioned.

Another major issue is T20 cricket, where as a bowler domestically to do well you need variations and be able to try things out every ball to stop batsmen hammering you round the park. In tests you need the discipline of being able to bowl ball after ball in the same spot and then defeat the batsmen with variety. I think that art is being lost not only in pakistani domestic cricket with young spinners but also around the world.

i definitely think long term for series at home we do need a top class leg spinner again.

 

[sweep_shot]

Pakistan haven't had a threatening spinner since days of Saeed Ajmal and Abdur Rehman.

Yasir Shah was okay for a while but he was inconsistent.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

excellent points made in relation to best spinners domestically being the old timers who have learnt their trade over the long haul domestically. Also i think wickets generally domestically will help quicker bowlers more. PCB need to really think longterm and some how find a way to invest in younger spinners like uve mentioned.

Another major issue is T20 cricket, where as a bowler domestically to do well you need variations and be able to try things out every ball to stop batsmen hammering you round the park. In tests you need the discipline of being able to bowl ball after ball in the same spot and then defeat the batsmen with variety. I think that art is being lost not only in pakistani domestic cricket with young spinners but also around the world.

i definitely think long term for series at home we do need a top class leg spinner again.

If you look at it historically, pitches in Pakistan have traditionally fast-bowlers more. During the Inzamam days Kaneria was the lone spinner. And even though often used to go for tons of runs, it was okay because he was a supporting act to the seamers.

Pakistan would be well-served to prepare the kind of pitches they prepared for the South Africa series. Which offer a fair bit for the seamers but also something for spinners in the later days and batters who apply themselves. While other sides have quality pace attacks aswell they don't usually know how to bowl in Pakistan when they come here. Pakistani pacers do. And having spin from Day 4 and 5 will always give you the edge over SENA sides.

The fast-bowlers bowling in multiple formats is always going to be a problem. Some bowlers will struggle with it, while for others like Shaheen it won't be an issue at all. That's just something we will have to accept I feel. And that's a problem for alot of other countries too, not just us.

But the only solution I see to grooming/identifying young spinners is by giving them chances for the A team. While A team series might be hard to arrange at home, PCB can arrange A tours to Sri Lanka and Bangladesh. PCB already has an excellent relationship with SLC and the one with BCB has improved too. Furthermore, A tours to these countries will not be that expensive to arrange but bowling in those conditions would provide alot of exposure to our young spinners.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Pakistan haven't had a threatening spinner since days of Saeed Ajmal and Abdur Rehman.

Yasir Shah was okay for a while but he was inconsistent.

I wouldn't say that. Yasir was very good for a number of years and single-handedly won Pakistan alot of matches. He certainly won us more matches than Ajmal and Rehman.

He's been on the decline since 2019 though and hasn't looked the same for quite some time now.

 

[Ab Fan]

Saqlain was comfortably the best that Pakistan produced. He is the only one who got the better of the great Indian batting lineup of 1999-00 as those guys were young and going good.

 

[Justcrazy]

Nawaz or Shadab can be good third spinner with there batting , but Pakistan need to find Test level spinners otherwise Pakistan would not be able to use the home advantage

 

[Justcrazy]

Saqlain was comfortably the best that Pakistan produced. He is the only one who got the better of the great Indian batting lineup of 1999-00 as those guys were young and going good.

He was once in a generation bowler , will not come by every year or decade.

 

[Markhor]

This is purely my own theory and I could be wrong but we've to remember from the mid-2000s until recently the domestic pitches in Pakistan were damp greentops that did little to encourage spin - especially wrist spin.

It produced a generation of what I call "LBW and bowled" spinners who rarely threaten the outside edge because on those low, slow tracks - instead of relying on turn or flight - you look to dart the ball on the stumps at a quicker pace. T20 cricket and adopting the UAE as a home has accelerated this trend, epitomised by spinners like Imad Wasim.

Once these guys play on bouncier wickets outside UAE where LBW and bowled doesn't come into play as much they struggle - Yasir Shah is one example as we see from his record and he's our best spinner of recent times. His poor fitness hasn't helped either.

From what I've seen of Nauman and Sajid they're okay but not big turners of the ball. Hopefully with surfaces improving we'll see more younger spinners give it a rip and Saqlain is ideally placed to mentor them.

 

[A.A.Z]

Asif Afridi is a very capable spinner who should be given a try.

 

[mon858]

They should seriously put effort into making Nawaz and Shadab become test bowlers. They would add a lot to our line up. On pakistan pitches a trio of Nawaz, Shadab and one of Sajid/Nauman along with couple of pacers would be enough variety and then we can go for pitches with more turn.

Long term I would even consider having Faheem play as middle order batter, perhaps over Fawad once is close to retirement and decline. That would add even more depth in bowling variety and resources.
In adding having these guys in lower middle order would also help in team run rate increase to capital's or an avg run rate start that lays platform for them and express themselves.

Imam
Shafique
Backup opener Shan
Azhar (till decline/retirement)
Backups Saud and Kamran.
Babar
Rizwan
Fawad (till decline/retirement)
Faheem
Shadab
Nawaz
Hasan/Naseem/Rauf
Shaheen
Sajid/Nauman

2 out of Faheem shadab Nawaz to play depending on conditions. If it's a patta track then drop Fawad for that game and just go with Faheem. Bowling depth would be more helpful on such tracks than batting depth (which would be there till number 8 Nawaz anyway).
With bowling depth you can use 2 attacking pacers in shorter spells and keep other end eith containing bowlers. Also the variety of bowlers keeps batsmen in check and not let them settle.

 

[Bewal Express]

The spinners in this game are very average and most importantly, don't spin the ball sharply. The fact is that the guys not playing arent any good either. If somehow Asghar starts to land the ball consistently, he may have a chance but I don't see anyone better( or worse) than these these guys.

 

[Amjid Javed]

If you look at it historically, pitches in Pakistan have traditionally fast-bowlers more. During the Inzamam days Kaneria was the lone spinner. And even though often used to go for tons of runs, it was okay because he was a supporting act to the seamers.

Pakistan would be well-served to prepare the kind of pitches they prepared for the South Africa series. Which offer a fair bit for the seamers but also something for spinners in the later days and batters who apply themselves. While other sides have quality pace attacks aswell they don't usually know how to bowl in Pakistan when they come here. Pakistani pacers do. And having spin from Day 4 and 5 will always give you the edge over SENA sides.

The fast-bowlers bowling in multiple formats is always going to be a problem. Some bowlers will struggle with it, while for others like Shaheen it won't be an issue at all. That's just something we will have to accept I feel. And that's a problem for alot of other countries too, not just us.

But the only solution I see to grooming/identifying young spinners is by giving them chances for the A team. While A team series might be hard to arrange at home, PCB can arrange A tours to Sri Lanka and Bangladesh. PCB already has an excellent relationship with SLC and the one with BCB has improved too. Furthermore, A tours to these countries will not be that expensive to arrange but bowling in those conditions would provide alot of exposure to our young spinners.

Yes the best pitches for team to play on would be like what we got at Rawalpindi for the South Africa game, it suits our bowlers as they like to skid the ball onto the surface, rather then SENA bowlers who try to hit the deck and dont get as much purchase. The spinners then do come into play as pitch breaks up or becomes abrasive.

Good idea in relation to A tour games between SL or Bangladesh or even Afghanistan would be good. I know the team recently had A tour vs SL. i also think using guys like saqlain and other ex players need to be used as much as possible so we can groom some ideal spinners for the future.

 

[WhenSultansBowled]

We need Shadab and Nawaz to play FC and focus on tests. They have potential to become world class.

 

[Cric1234]

We need Shadab and Nawaz to play FC and focus on tests. They have potential to become world class.

They don’t Nawaz is worse than Nauman as a bowler and Shadab needs improvement in his bowling to make it at test level they will simply score more runs with the bat that’s all currently as compared to the current spinners.

 

[Saj]

Both Sajid and Nauman are honest tryers but they certainly aren't Saeed Ajmal, Yasir Shah, Saqlain Mushtaq or Mushtaq Ahmed are they.

Unless the surface offers them a lot of help, they aren't going to scare too many batters.

This is where the likes of Raza Hassan should be looking at themselves and how he threw away his career.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Saqlain was comfortably the best that Pakistan produced. He is the only one who got the better of the great Indian batting lineup of 1999-00 as those guys were young and going good.

He was incredible at his peak but he faded far too quickly. I don't know if it was the overreliance on doosras and the lack of use of the stock-ball later in his career...or the knee-surgeries, but Sehwag's assault on him at Multan perfectly summed up how far he had fallen as a bowler by 2004. And that too at the young age of 28.

 

[moghul]

I want Shadab for the same reasons, except he adds even more variation to the bowling attack. He obviously isn't good enough to be the main spinner but behind Sajid and Nauman i think he can more than do a job.

I agree , Shadab's bowling is much better, he is ready to play test now, will not be a immediate success but will improve with time . He is young , very good fielder and more than useful late order batter, perfect for #7.

Nawaz is not test class bowler in my opinion , good for WBC.

Sajid Khan is not a classy offie, no variety in his bowling , I'm not seeing him getting much success at international level. His success in BD was a surprise and probably one time thing.

If we need a left arm spinner , I would prefer Zafar Gohar over Nawaz in tests. Nauman is too old to last long ( as a bowler i mean ).

 

[MenInG]

Are these spinners actually able to win games against top teams?

 

[Amjid Javed]

Are these spinners actually able to win games against top teams?

No - they are offering zero control which means no pressure.

Also lack of variation of deliveries means that they are easy to counter.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Nauman and Sajid look more like English spinners than Pakistani or Asian spinners.

Zafar used to be a big turner of the ball. Don't know what happened in the last 3-4 years, his deliveries were barely getting any turn in PSL last year.

Need to get as much out of Yasir as possible for as long as possible cause I don't have any hope of 30 and 35 year old spinners becoming maestros in near future.

 

[pak4life]

Everyone wants to be a t20 specialist, which leaves all the rubbish for test cricket. We not had any decent test spinners for a long time.

 

[Usman Chadda]

Our spinners’ incompetence has made these pitches look a lot worse than they really are.

Australian spinners are equally rubbish.

 

[Arsal_AK]

Our spinners’ incompetence has made these pitches look a lot worse than they really are.

Australian spinners are equally rubbish.

Precisely. The spin quality has been awful this series, especially in Karachi.

 

[Kianig89]

Watching Pak spinners bowl remind me of......Peter Such Dan Wiseman Shan Udal

 

[ssuhaide]

Watching Pak spinners bowl remind me of......Peter Such Dan Wiseman Shan Udal

You can put Sajid and Nauman in the same category as John Emburey and Phil Edmonds. Old warhorses, honest players but nothing more.

 

[Cric1234]

Ordinary stuff their places should be in question Nauman other than being economical offers nothing Sajid doesn’t have enough quality to be a consistent bowler.

A younger left arm spinner and a leg spinner should be selected but there is a lack of quality currently in domestic cricket.

 

[ask_analyse_act]

This series shows that Nauman and Sajid are not the drive force to have in the spin department..

Nawaz as left arm spinner should be tried, he has improved a lot in both batting and bowling in the last year or so..

Unfortunate that he is still recovering from the foot injury.. Looks like it might take some more time

Yasir Shah has been the weapon so far, they should continue to play him , provided he has match fitness..
they should also keep an eye out for some one younger.

I feel Zahid mehmood , will also be another nauman and sajid because he doesnt show the level of skills which Yasir had when he was about to start his test career.

 

[PakEngFan]

People vouching for zahid will be very disappointed when they see him play. He’s awful. As much as we all want Yasir shah to be gone he’s far better then these uncles.

 

[Amjid Javed]

we have SL (A) where spinners are a must plus Eng and NZ (both at home) and are spin options need to seriously improve.

 

[Kianig89]

Only hope is Nawaz he can bat as well good fielder and being left arm on day 4 5 can get purchase Noman and Sajid are street level, Sajid getting that 10fer against Bdesh has to be biggest anomaly in Test Cricket

 

[ElRaja]

at test level on such pitches u need a spinner with a little mystery, pakistan desperately need a leg spinner, doesnt matter that shadab is mostly a limited overs player, hes the only option, and must be played going forward.

whats most worrying however is that nauman and sajid had great first class records, makes u wonder what kind of players of spin domestic pakistani batsmen are.

 

[Bewal Express]

The guys are journeyman bowlers. Sajid isn't anything and Nauman can hold up an end and may be useful in very helpful conditions but on flat tracks offers just as little Sajid.

 

[Amjid Javed]

Pakistan need to be looking at different spin options for SL series away, both these bowlers need to be dropped.

 

[gazza619]

Nauman and Sajid look more like English spinners than Pakistani or Asian spinners.

Zafar used to be a big turner of the ball. Don't know what happened in the last 3-4 years,..

80% - lack of hard work
20% - luck

 

[Manunited18]

Yasir shah is far better than both sajid and Nauman. Pakistan are in no position to discard a guy who has over 200 test wickets!

 

[Saj]

Both Sajid and Nauman are honest triers but not exactly earth shattering bowlers.

Steady rather than spectacular.

Neither have the varieties to trouble most batters.

 

[Bewal Express]

Both Sajid and Nauman are honest triers but not exactly earth shattering bowlers.

Steady rather than spectacular.

Neither have the varieties to trouble most batters.

Neither have the spinning ball to trouble any batsman worth his salt. This Aussie team was there for the taking if we had the spinners. Dare i say that if Saqi lost 3 or 4 stone he would be better than these guys even today

 

[sali]

If out of form Hasan Ali can play ahead of Naseem, Harris, Dhani, Amir,.... then why Yasir Shah can't play ahead of Sajid and Nuaman? I understand that leg spinners go for a lots of runs when not accurate but he is better than these spinners. They could have played three spinners if Sajid must play and leave out Hasan Ali!

 

[Wahid1234]

Pakistan are in dire need of world class spinners who can bring the x-factor like ajmal and saqlain did with their varieties.

Pakistan are in desperate need of an off-spinner who can bowl the carom-ball or the doosra.

Why can’t pakistan produce a decent off-spinner anymore who can bowl a doosra.

Since ajmal went im yet to see anyone in the domestic circuit who has the craftiness and mind to work out a batsmen like ajmal did and someone who can also bowl the doosra:

I think having a doosra in the locker as an Asian spinner is a must.. that’s what all the Asian top test playing nations currently have

 

[ElRaja]

looking towards yasir shah doesnt solve the problem, hes pbly close to 40, his fitness standards have slipped and he has had off field issues which bring negative attention to the whole team and prior to being dropped he averaged 50 over three years.

yes, hes pbly better than nauman and sajid but pak will be back at this juncture in a years time. only real solution is shadab, who may or may not work, but given his current form in t20 it makes sense to induct him, worst case scenario hed pbly still average better than 50.

 

[mazkhan]

It was criminal not to select yasir shah in first place.

 

[Sher Khan]

Both Sajid and Nauman are honest triers but not exactly earth shattering bowlers.

Steady rather than spectacular.

Neither have the varieties to trouble most batters.

Yasir Shah has picked up 17 wickets in the Pakistan Cup already. Surely he deserves to be back in the Pakistan test team soon. But I don't think the Chief selector likes him.

 

[Sher Khan]

Both Sajid and Nauman are honest triers but not exactly earth shattering bowlers.

Steady rather than spectacular.

Neither have the varieties to trouble most batters.

Yasir Shah has picked up 17 wickets in the Pakistan Cup already. Surely he deserves to be back in the Pakistan test team soon. But I don't think the Chief selector likes him.

 

[NoBallZombie]

From the spinners of the past, I think Arshad Khan was also a very good spinner. I recall Ranatunga (or was it Aravinda?) rating him very highly. A nice clean action with subtle variations of pace.

One thing I cannot understand is why cant we get spinners that actually spin the ball?

At the moment, it sounds like our best bet may be to develop Shadab and Nawaz for the spin department. That would give us the finger spinner and wrist spinner with two solid batters down the order. Dont think those two would do worse than the Nauman/Sajid combo. And Nauman is such an awful fielder especially off his own bowling. At least Nawaz/Shadab may be able to convert some half chances into wickets. Pakistan can then replace one of them with Faheem depending on wickets.

How about this for a line up?

Abdullah
<some other opener>
Azhar <Saud shakeel ideally>
Babar
Fawad
Rizwan
Shadab/Faheem
Nawaz/Faheem
Hasan
Naseem
Shaheen

 

[Monsee]

Shadab needs to start playing more FC cricket because he too should be a mainstay in the test team at some point. He is too good of a cricketer to only be playing limited-overs cricket. And let's be real, there are few things better than having a performing leg-spinner in your line-up in test cricket. Because leg-spinners can make things happen even on unhelpful surfaces.

The sad reality is that Pakistan simply does not have enough young spinners who can be invested in right now because they are not ready for test cricket. And this has been a trend for quite some time now. The best spinners in Pakistan usually tend to be guys like Nauman, Sajid, Kashif Bhatti and in the past, Abdul Rehman, Zulfiqar Babar...guys well into their mid or late 30s.

Ahmed Safi Abdullah has been doing well in QeA Trophy cricket but again, I question how well he would do in test cricket. Which is why it makes sense to play these experienced domestic journeymen. Its a short-term strategy but they know how to bowl on Pakistani pitches.

Earlier today, I was watching this show with Rasid Latif and Umar Gul talking about 2nd day's play (search for this video: 'Pak Need a Good Show on first innings | Pak vs Aus' in YT)...I posted it in a new thread and it was removed by Mods.

Anyway, besides talking about this 3rd test, they started talking about lack of out and out pacers and any decent spinners. They raised some very good points including the stupidest idea being in play regarding different ball types being used in several competitions e.g. U16, U19, T20, QAE etc. all being played with a different type of ball. No uniformity.

Also, they talked about how pitches play a huge role in declining talent in Pak e.g. if there is a lot of grass on the pitch, batsmen try and defend/ just survive against Fast Bowlers (who because of too much grass on pitches in past few seasons would be anything but fast (because they don't need to bend their back)...yet, the ball would seam/swing around a lot).

Once spinners come on, same batsmen would try and over compensate against them. Batsmen would end up playing lot of airy drives and these spinners end up getting lot of cheap wickets due to mistakes of batsmen (none because of their spin quality). Most of those batsmen will be out being caught at mid-wicket/mid-on etc. No one looks at how these spinners got their wickets but rather how many wickets they got. Next thing you know these same spinners get picked because of being the leading wicket takers. This is what is causing no good spinners to come through. It is a total mess.

 

[Kianig89]

Shadab is your answer has variations just need patience in Test cricket

 

[asifp]

You can't blame the spinners when the pitches are literally offering zero assistance. Even Shane Warne would be ineffective on these. Disgrace

 

[ask_analyse_act]

Yasir Shah has picked up 17 wickets in the Pakistan Cup already. Surely he deserves to be back in the Pakistan test team soon. But I don't think the Chief selector likes him.

ppt selector likes players from his nothern team..he also has personal bias with Imad Wasim.

He selects Zahid mehmood as replacement for Nawaz in LOIs which make 3 leg spinners for the home series with 20 man squad

Nawaz
Shadab
Haider Ali
Nauman

Somehow he hasnt selected Nasir Nawaz and Umar Amin yet..

 

[WhenSultansBowled]

Shadab is a typical T20 PSL spinner.

He doesn't have patience or commitment with test cricket. And this is a shame.

 

[ask_analyse_act]

Earlier today, I was watching this show with Rasid Latif and Umar Gul talking about 2nd day's play (search for this video: 'Pak Need a Good Show on first innings | Pak vs Aus' in YT)...I posted it in a new thread and it was removed by Mods.

Anyway, besides talking about this 3rd test, they started talking about lack of out and out pacers and any decent spinners. They raised some very good points including the stupidest idea being in play regarding different ball types being used in several competitions e.g. U16, U19, T20, QAE etc. all being played with a different type of ball. No uniformity.

Also, they talked about how pitches play a huge role in declining talent in Pak e.g. if there is a lot of grass on the pitch, batsmen try and defend/ just survive against Fast Bowlers (who because of too much grass on pitches in past few seasons would be anything but fast (because they don't need to bend their back)...yet, the ball would seam/swing around a lot).

Once spinners come on, same batsmen would try and over compensate against them. Batsmen would end up playing lot of airy drives and these spinners end up getting lot of cheap wickets due to mistakes of batsmen (none because of their spin quality). Most of those batsmen will be out being caught at mid-wicket/mid-on etc. No one looks at how these spinners got their wickets but rather how many wickets they got. Next thing you know these same spinners get picked because of being the leading wicket takers. This is what is causing no good spinners to come through. It is a total mess.

Well atleast someone can point out the root cause and how deep rooted it is on LIVE TV..

Ramiz raja the ego maniac will turn deaf ear and blind eye to this and go on with the proceedings.

Ramiz also in his previous tenure , was also obsessed with the pitches and try to change things from there which cost Pakistan to have no good players coming through the ranks.. One thing he did right back then was to rope in Bob Woolmer as coach..

 

[Amjid Javed]

Both Sajid and Nauman are honest triers but not exactly earth shattering bowlers.

Steady rather than spectacular.

Neither have the varieties to trouble most batters.

no variation, no arm ball or one that goes straight on. No doosra.

If a ball only turns one way its so easy for batsmen to negate.

 

[cricket_cfa]

How has Usman Qadir done in fc games?

 

[shamaan]

From the spinners of the past, I think Arshad Khan was also a very good spinner. I recall Ranatunga (or was it Aravinda?) rating him very highly. A nice clean action with subtle variations of pace.

One thing I cannot understand is why cant we get spinners that actually spin the ball?

At the moment, it sounds like our best bet may be to develop Shadab and Nawaz for the spin department. That would give us the finger spinner and wrist spinner with two solid batters down the order. Dont think those two would do worse than the Nauman/Sajid combo. And Nauman is such an awful fielder especially off his own bowling. At least Nawaz/Shadab may be able to convert some half chances into wickets. Pakistan can then replace one of them with Faheem depending on wickets.

How about this for a line up?

Abdullah
<some other opener>
Azhar <Saud shakeel ideally>
Babar
Fawad
Rizwan
Shadab/Faheem
Nawaz/Faheem
Hasan
Naseem
Shaheen

Make Azhar open and put saud at 3 and drop Hassan until he regains fitness and rhythm.

 

[shamaan]

Shadab is your answer has variations just need patience in Test cricket

Shadab needs to make sure that he plays the whole season of domestic hopefully doesn't clash with the world cup.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Powerpoint selector has consistently given Yasir Shah a cold shoulder since coming into power.

A one legged Yasir is better than both Nauman and Sajid atm.

 

[Mamoon]

Agree with this - Yasir might be overhyped and he has been in decline for a couple of years and he cannot bowl overseas, but in Asian conditions, he is still Shane Warne compared to our other spinners.

Mohammad Wasim has had a pathetic agenda against him since day one.

Why doesn’t Babar take a stand? He faces Nauman and Sajid in the nets - does he think they have what it takes to trouble the batsmen or does he actually struggle against them?

Our head coach is Saqlain - what on earth is he doing with the spinners and if they are not capable, he should make it clear to Mr. PowerPoint that this duo needs to be dropped immediately.

 

[daytrader]

Earlier today, I was watching this show with Rasid Latif and Umar Gul talking about 2nd day's play (search for this video: 'Pak Need a Good Show on first innings | Pak vs Aus' in YT)...I posted it in a new thread and it was removed by Mods.

Anyway, besides talking about this 3rd test, they started talking about lack of out and out pacers and any decent spinners. They raised some very good points including the stupidest idea being in play regarding different ball types being used in several competitions e.g. U16, U19, T20, QAE etc. all being played with a different type of ball. No uniformity.

Also, they talked about how pitches play a huge role in declining talent in Pak e.g. if there is a lot of grass on the pitch, batsmen try and defend/ just survive against Fast Bowlers (who because of too much grass on pitches in past few seasons would be anything but fast (because they don't need to bend their back)...yet, the ball would seam/swing around a lot).

Once spinners come on, same batsmen would try and over compensate against them. Batsmen would end up playing lot of airy drives and these spinners end up getting lot of cheap wickets due to mistakes of batsmen (none because of their spin quality). Most of those batsmen will be out being caught at mid-wicket/mid-on etc. No one looks at how these spinners got their wickets but rather how many wickets they got. Next thing you know these same spinners get picked because of being the leading wicket takers. This is what is causing no good spinners to come through. It is a total mess.

We did pick our best spinners from FC. The problem is we didn't give them the pitches they're used to playing on. If RR didn't intervene maybe we would've had green decks or dust bowls which would have suited our bowlers more

 

[Monsee]

We did pick our best spinners from FC. The problem is we didn't give them the pitches they're used to playing on. If RR didn't intervene maybe we would've had green decks or dust bowls which would have suited our bowlers more

It's beyond that, Sajid Khan is hampered by his action, spin or no spin...batsmen (good ones) can clearly see what is coming their way because he does not using his other arm at all. He barely has any variety either.

Nauman is a bit better but he continues to bowl outside off, you need to try and get closer to the off stump or even picth on middle (and not always worry about gettibng hit) and have some faith in the pitch as well, especially when it is a BD pitch. Remember he went pretty much wicketless while BD left armer got 7 in one innings.

 

[waqar goraya]

A little off topic. But If I remember correctly the good old days, I reminisce that we used to go with one specialist spinner for most of the times in the subcontinent. Two specialist spinners began with the advent of UAE.
If there is no test class all-rounder then 6 specialist batsmen , one keeper, three quick bowlers and a spinner is the way to go. Usually there is a one part timer spinner to roll out 4-7 overs.

 

[Titan24]

We dont have much quality. Guys like Abrar Ahmed, Faisal Akram, Mubasir Khan, Mehran Mumtaz etc developing in next couple of years or one of the guys like Sajid, Zafar, Asghar etc improving substantially is the only hope. Zahid is there but, he also wont be able to give much years, at best if performs really well can be a stop gap arrangement. Yasir coming back fit and in form for the Asian conditions could be really good as well for the time being.

When you lack something in one aspect the only chance you have to cover that in some other aspect. So I think Nawaz, Shadab and Zafar might be better options as they overall can match the role which our lead spinners have been performing and at the same time add a lot to fielding and batting depth. Something worth thinking about.

 

[cricenjoyer]

I'd probably bring in Nawaz for Nauman, however do we have any offspiners that can replace Sajid? Either that or we bring back Yasir Shah for tests in Asia

 

[shamaan]

Nawaz should be brought in for Nauman.
Zahid Mahmood/Yasir should be brought in for Sajid.
This is for the near future.

 

[Amjid Javed]

Pakistan should just pick one front line spinner.

Remaining spin options should be made up from below

Abdullah
imam
Saud shakeel - left arm spin
Babar - off spin
kamran ghulam - left arm spin
rizwan
Ifti / shadab / nawaz - spin option

those 3 or even 4 options in a top 7 would be better then a useless "2nd frontline spinner"

 

[Kroll]

Forget Yasir Shah, he ain't coming back with the all the controversy surrounding him, he's past it also.

Pakistan are over thinking it imo, by trying to bring in test specialists, they simply don't play enough tests for this strategy to work and should pick guys that play more regularly.

People might not agree, but I don't think we could do worse than Nauman and Sajid to be fair.

 

[Saj]

Too many of our spinners are focussing on T20 cricket rather than on 4 day cricket.

Therefore they are becoming bowlers without variety or too much skill.

 

[gazza619]

Nawaz should be brought in for Nauman.
Zahid Mahmood/Yasir should be brought in for Sajid.
This is for the near future.

You are replacing two mediocre spinners with two mediocre spinners.

We dont have any quality spinners and we need to accept that.

I would play 4 genuine quality quicks supported by part time spin of Shadab and Saud regardless of pitch and conditions.

 

[Junaids]

Too many of our spinners are focussing on T20 cricket rather than on 4 day cricket.

Therefore they are becoming bowlers without variety or too much skill.

Pakistan's spin bowling has been over-rated for decades. I remember just how useless Abdul Qadir was in Australia and I have watched Saqlain, Mushtaq Ahmed and Danish Kaneria lose countless SENA Tests.

There is no Shane Warne.

There isn't even a Dan Vettori.

Pakistan has a bunch of guys like Sajid Khan and Nauman Ali who are similar in quality to Jack Leach or Ish Sodhi.

Forget them. I'd rather play Mohammad Nawaz at 6 and Shadab Khan at 7 and Faheem Ashraf at 8, plus 3 specialist strike bowler quicks.

 

[ahmadharis1]

Bring in Zafar Gohar, easily one of the best spinners in Pakistan. Also pretty handy with the bat

 

[Junaids]

Bring in Zafar Gohar, easily one of the best spinners in Pakistan. Also pretty handy with the bat

I'm conflicted on this.

This what I see as the ceiling for the various potential Pakistan spinners for the World Test Championship cycles up to 2027.

Shadab Khan
Batting average 35
Bowling average 36

Zafar Gohar
Batting average 22
Bowling average 35

Mohammad Asghar
Batting average 10
Bowling average 34

Sajid Khan
Batting average 20
Bowling average 35

Mohammad Nawaz
Batting average 35
Bowling average 45

None of those bowling ceilings inspire confidence in me. I would end up picking whoever can average in the 34-36 band with the ball, but score the most runs.

And that's Shadab Khan.

 

[Cric1234]

Nawaz is worse as a bowler than Nauman and Zahid isn’t consistent enough will leak runs not international quality there are few spinners currently who can do something in tests.

 

[Junaids]

Nawaz is worse as a bowler than Nauman and Zahid isn’t consistent enough will leak runs not international quality there are few spinners currently who can do something in tests.

That's my point in the previous post.

Nawaz is just a Labuschagne - a batsman who can bowl a few overs.

But the difference between Shadab, Nauman and Sajid is so small that you really have to just go with the best batsman and fielder.

 

[Saj]

Pakistan's spin bowling has been over-rated for decades. I remember just how useless Abdul Qadir was in Australia and I have watched Saqlain, Mushtaq Ahmed and Danish Kaneria lose countless SENA Tests.

There is no Shane Warne.

There isn't even a Dan Vettori.

Pakistan has a bunch of guys like Sajid Khan and Nauman Ali who are similar in quality to Jack Leach or Ish Sodhi.

Forget them. I'd rather play Mohammad Nawaz at 6 and Shadab Khan at 7 and Faheem Ashraf at 8, plus 3 specialist strike bowler quicks.

Saeed Ajmal, Yasir Shah and to an extent Abdur Rehman did a job. But of late, our spinners have been very ordinary.

 

[Bewal Express]

Saeed Ajmal, Yasir Shah and to an extent Abdur Rehman did a job. But of late, our spinners have been very ordinary.

Mohammed Asghar has a bit of talent but cant land the ball twice in the same place. You can either take a punt on him and hope he steps up or continue with guys that are no better than poor county spinners.

 

[James]

is Yasir Shah entirely done now? If not, surely he would be an improvement on the spinners who were picked in the Australia series.

 

[Bewal Express]

is Yasir Shah entirely done now? If not, surely he would be an improvement on the spinners who were picked in the Australia series.

Nothing is certain in PK cricket. Yasir has been poor for a while but is he any worse than the dross that played? No is the simple answer