The cupboard for spinners and all rounders is full, but pacers, batters, keepers still empty

[mon858]

We have plenty of spinners and all rounders available across formats now:
Noman
Sajid
Asif Afridi
Abrar
Sufiyan
Usman T
Nawaz
Saad M
Arafat M
Faisal A
Maaz S
Saim A
Salman A
Shadab once fit
Faheem
Ahmed D
Aamer J
Hussain T

Hard to even pick who should be the top 2 to 3 for odi and t20 specially, plenty of good options.

For me for T20s I would consider having below in mix keeping in mind all round and spin ability assuming conditions call for minimum 2 specialist spinners;
Saim
Maaz
Nawaz
Faheem/Ahmed D
Abrar/Sufiyan/Usman T

Who would you pick?

And do you agree on it being empty when it comes to batters, keepers and fast bowling?

Its one reason they had to recall Babar and Rizwan I feel.

 

[amvbfm]

The 3 young batters + 1 keeper currently dominating the QeA trophy are probably the strongest contenders for Pakistan's future top order along with Saim and Maaz. Shamyl, Azan, Shahzaib and Saad are all likely to feature across formats for Pakistan, and probably pretty soon. What's troubling, but not really surprising, is the dearth of good quality middle order bats. For young batsmen that's probably the easiest way into the team as there is little competition. I think Kamran Ghulam has been treated unfairly and could have cemented himself as a good test and ODI bat if handled properly. For LOIs there does seem to be a big middle order vacuum and not many prospects in sight.

For keeping Saad seems to be the strongest long term candidate, Rohail seems to have fallen off the radar and needs to work hard to get back. Haseeb and Ghazi have been rather unimpressive based on what i have seen of them.

Spin and all round stocks look strong, but only if utilized properly. Sufyan and Faisal should be given as many chances as possible. As should Arafat. Saad looks a good prospect but his bowling still needs a lot of work. Still not convinced by Usman and his gimmicky action. As of now I feel Faisal looks our best spin prospect and Minhas the best all rounder.

Pace bowling pipeline is weak but perhaps not as bad as middle order batting. Khurram, Salman M, Abbas, Daniyal are all decent bowlers and on current form better than Haris and Naseem. Ali Raza is the pick of the youngsters and if handled probably could be a real star.

Overall, i don't think we are in a bad place in terms of talent. There are some very bright and talented upcoming players and it depends on how they are handled and groomed.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Nawaz has been wonderful since his return but you know you cant really rely on him in pressure situation plus Hesson/Agha handled him weirdly at times by not bowling him. but overall i agree the spin all rounders we have are decent.

You can add Khushdil to the list too. He is at the bottom of the list but has some international exposure. Building depth is very important, it means if you need to select players they already have some experience under their belt.

We need to rotate the fast bowlers more to build this depth too and same with the batting. Rotate Babar, Shaheen, Naseem, Haris R, Fakhar, and even Agha to give youngsters a chance to get 5-6 games under their belt. Some players may take their chances.

 

[TheSultan]

With the fast bowlers, no one can convince me any of our fast bowlers are clearly better than some of the up n coming ones. You might aswell play them in a few matches and see how they fare.

Naseem is useless if he just bowls in the 130s and overuses the slower all. Shaheen is up n down, Rauf is a serial leaker. I like Wasim but up until a month ago he wasn’t even being selected.

Ahmed Danyal should be tried and there has to be a roadmap to get Ali Raza and Zeeshan moving too.

Not too impressed with Ubaid Shah, might be useful. Aziz had promise but he just proper choked yesterday so not sure about his temperament

 

[Mirpuri Don]

I think among the under 23 batsmen those who will make it at international level are Shamyl Hussein, Azan Awais and Shahzaib Khan and, perhaps, Rizwan Mehmood.

Among fast bowlers Ali Raza.

Don’t see a keeper right now to be honest but Haseebullah Khan and Saad Baig should come out good.

It’s definitely in the spin all rounders that we’ve seem to hit a peak (Maaz Sadaqat, Arafat Minhas and Saad Masood apart from those already regulars).

But point is that many more names will be added potentially to these lists.

(I restricted to the under 23, if you go above then among pacers Ahmed Daniyal will probably become a regular soon).

 

[Farah Sohail]

What happebed to Fawas Ahmed? He was in last PSL in karachi kings.. he was quite fast.. has he disappeared since then?

 

[Fenrir]

PSL franchises should hold talent hunts in different regions.They may find guys with raw pace.

 

[KingOfPakBreakfast]

The 3 young batters + 1 keeper currently dominating the QeA trophy are probably the strongest contenders for Pakistan's future top order along with Saim and Maaz. Shamyl, Azan, Shahzaib and Saad are all likely to feature across formats for Pakistan, and probably pretty soon. What's troubling, but not really surprising, is the dearth of good quality middle order bats. For young batsmen that's probably the easiest way into the team as there is little competition. I think Kamran Ghulam has been treated unfairly and could have cemented himself as a good test and ODI bat if handled properly. For LOIs there does seem to be a big middle order vacuum and not many prospects in sight.

For keeping Saad seems to be the strongest long term candidate, Rohail seems to have fallen off the radar and needs to work hard to get back. Haseeb and Ghazi have been rather unimpressive based on what i have seen of them.

Spin and all round stocks look strong, but only if utilized properly. Sufyan and Faisal should be given as many chances as possible. As should Arafat. Saad looks a good prospect but his bowling still needs a lot of work. Still not convinced by Usman and his gimmicky action. As of now I feel Faisal looks our best spin prospect and Minhas the best all rounder.

Pace bowling pipeline is weak but perhaps not as bad as middle order batting. Khurram, Salman M, Abbas, Daniyal are all decent bowlers and on current form better than Haris and Naseem. Ali Raza is the pick of the youngsters and if handled probably could be a real star.

Overall, i don't think we are in a bad place in terms of talent. There are some very bright and talented upcoming players and it depends on how they are handled and groomed.

This is a good summary.

One important point you raised is the absolute lack of young middle order bats coming through, especially for white ball cricket and t20s. You need to start playing at a certain pace to succeed and we just don’t seem to have youngsters that can go from ball 1.

Similar to Hassan Nawaz, we may have to repurpose some openers to do the role in the future. Hopefully here’s where those two extra PSL teams will be a good pathway for these kids, if said franchises have sensible set ups.

 

[shamaan]

Kamran Ghullam got dropped unfairly in odis.

 

[shamaan]

Mubasir Khan should be in the test squad especially in asia.

Ali Raza is stand out talent in terms of raw fast bowlers.

 

[sweep_shot]

Pace department is a bit weak currently. Not enough bench strength. Even the main attack isn't that threatening.

Spin department is in a very good shape. Good bench strength and good main attack.

 

[BouncerGuy]

I think we have a couple of upcoming batters in line.. Azan Awais, Shahzaib, Shamyl, Rohail Nazir is having a dream run as well..

In terms of bowling, we are never empty in this department... A lot of bowlers are there who just need to play good amount of domestic cricket to polish themselves for international cricket.

 

[amvbfm]

This is a good summary.

One important point you raised is the absolute lack of young middle order bats coming through, especially for white ball cricket and t20s. You need to start playing at a certain pace to succeed and we just don’t seem to have youngsters that can go from ball 1.

Similar to Hassan Nawaz, we may have to repurpose some openers to do the role in the future. Hopefully here’s where those two extra PSL teams will be a good pathway for these kids, if said franchises have sensible set ups.

Yeah, it is an opportunity for top order players who might not be able to make it to the team otherwise, to reinvent themselves.

 

[GoUgandaCranes]

We have plenty of spinners and all rounders available across formats now:
Noman
Sajid
Asif Afridi
Abrar
Sufiyan
Usman T
Nawaz
Saad M
Arafat M
Faisal A
Maaz S
Saim A
Salman A
Shadab once fit
Faheem
Ahmed D
Aamer J
Hussain T

Hard to even pick who should be the top 2 to 3 for odi and t20 specially, plenty of good options.

For me for T20s I would consider having below in mix keeping in mind all round and spin ability assuming conditions call for minimum 2 specialist spinners;
Saim
Maaz
Nawaz
Faheem/Ahmed D
Abrar/Sufiyan/Usman T

Who would you pick?

And do you agree on it being empty when it comes to batters, keepers and fast bowling?

Its one reason they had to recall Babar and Rizwan I feel.

White ball cricket is not a problem for Pakistan. They have plenty of decent prospects & almost all bases are covered. These players aren't ATG material but they'll keep Pak cricket around the 3rd to 6th bracket in the ranking table. We even have fast bowlers in Akif, Ali Raza, Abbas Afridi who are warming the bench and decent batting prospects in Hasan Nawaz, Maaz Sadaqat, Khwaja Nafay (who also keeps), etc. to keep competition for places hot.

The problem is red ball cricket where there is a clear dearth of quality in almost all departments. There's only Abbas as a proven red ball bowler while all others are inconsistent and just not good enough. Khurram has shown some glimpses in his limited chances but he doesn't remain fit for an entire series & Shaheen at this point is focusing only on ODIs. You do need a fast bowler in tests to scare lower order or use reverse swing & none of them have the pace or presence to do so.

We also have no overseas test-class spinner after Yasir Shah. The less said about batting, the better.

 

[amvbfm]

White ball cricket is not a problem for Pakistan. They have plenty of decent prospects & almost all bases are covered. These players aren't ATG material but they'll keep Pak cricket around the 3rd to 6th bracket in the ranking table. We even have fast bowlers in Akif, Ali Raza, Abbas Afridi who are warming the bench and decent batting prospects in Hasan Nawaz, Maaz Sadaqat, Khwaja Nafay (who also keeps), etc. to keep competition for places hot.

The problem is red ball cricket where there is a clear dearth of quality in almost all departments. There's only Abbas as a proven red ball bowler while all others are inconsistent and just not good enough. Khurram has shown some glimpses in his limited chances but he doesn't remain fit for an entire series & Shaheen at this point is focusing only on ODIs. You do need a fast bowler in tests to scare lower order or use reverse swing & none of them have the pace or presence to do so.

We also have no overseas test-class spinner after Yasir Shah. The less said about batting, the better.

I'd disagree. I think we have better prospects in red ball cricket than white ball. You have the likes of Azan, Zaryab, Huraira, Saad, Shahzaib, Shamyl and Maaz who can all play the long game. As far as pacers are concerned, Khurram is a high quality option. Salman Mirza can be groomed as a good opening bowler. I'm really glad to see that Karachi's Muhammad Umar is back this season, he is a pretty decent long format bowler and someone the management must track. There is also Ali Raza. Spinners, especially wrist spinners take a lot of time to develop which is why players like Faisal Akram should get as much game time as possible. The issue isn't that we don't have talent, the issue is the management's persistence with tried and tested options and marquee names who just aren't interested in the long format.

 

[GoUgandaCranes]

I'd disagree. I think we have better prospects in red ball cricket than white ball. You have the likes of Azan, Zaryab, Huraira, Saad, Shahzaib, Shamyl and Maaz who can all play the long game. As far as pacers are concerned, Khurram is a high quality option. Salman Mirza can be groomed as a good opening bowler. I'm really glad to see that Karachi's Muhammad Umar is back this season, he is a pretty decent long format bowler and someone the management must track. There is also Ali Raza. Spinners, especially wrist spinners take a lot of time to develop which is why players like Faisal Akram should get as much game time as possible. The issue isn't that we don't have talent, the issue is the management's persistence with tried and tested options and marquee names who just aren't interested in the long format.

Domestic cricket in Pakistan is not an accurate judge of a batters ability because of multiple reasons

1. The pitches are lottery
2. Our international test cricketers hardly play domestic cricket due to overlapping schedules
3. Our domestic fast bowlers are not able to extract bounce from the pitches.

Most of our domestic batters crouch before they face the ball as there's no bounce. Huraira, Shahzaib, Shamyl, & Maaz I have seen and even though some of them are topping the scoring charts, they are in no way ready to play red ball cricket. About Azan I have only heard good stuff so I'll give you that.

Pakistan does not have any test class fast bowler and those who have a bit of potential are not focused on red ball cricket. Ali Raza was injured and post injury, he decided to partake in T20 cricket instead of focusing on his recovery. Umar is relatively taller but he does not have the pace that is needed at the highest level. Mirza is not a test bowler.

Faisal Akram is a good prospect if his priorities remain red ball cricket.

We do have a talent crisis when it comes to test cricket and we should admit that. Our last great all-rounder retired in the 90s. Our last great fast bowler retired in 2011. Post Younus we have been struggling to have a dependable middle order player. Our record in every foreign country is so terrible that it's not even worth looking at.

No series win in England since 96. No series win in Australia ever and we last won the test there in 95. Consistent whitewashes in South Africa. Even the team that we bashed for fun New Zealand is now a dreaded test location for us.

I do agree that there's management failure as well but the onus to prepare yourself for test cricket is on the player as well. We can say that Pak public doesn't really want to watch test cricket so the players have no incentive to play it as they get neither fame nor money and we play so little red ball cricket that it's useless for the player anyway. I mean look at Shan Masood, he was the test captain of Pakistan but he makes 3 appearances in a year and then he's gone. Saud, Noman, etc. are also the same where you just see them for 10 days in the year and then they are just left on their own. Compare that to Root or Smith who are literally the faces of cricket even though they are also only active mostly for test cricket.

Test cricket is a labor of love and in this day and age of instant gratification, our players, management, & fans have no time for this & it shows in our results over the last one and a half decade.

 

[amvbfm]

Domestic cricket in Pakistan is not an accurate judge of a batters ability because of multiple reasons

1. The pitches are lottery
2. Our international test cricketers hardly play domestic cricket due to overlapping schedules
3. Our domestic fast bowlers are not able to extract bounce from the pitches.

Most of our domestic batters crouch before they face the ball as there's no bounce. Huraira, Shahzaib, Shamyl, & Maaz I have seen and even though some of them are topping the scoring charts, they are in no way ready to play red ball cricket. About Azan I have only heard good stuff so I'll give you that.

Pakistan does not have any test class fast bowler and those who have a bit of potential are not focused on red ball cricket. Ali Raza was injured and post injury, he decided to partake in T20 cricket instead of focusing on his recovery. Umar is relatively taller but he does not have the pace that is needed at the highest level. Mirza is not a test bowler.

Faisal Akram is a good prospect if his priorities remain red ball cricket.

We do have a talent crisis when it comes to test cricket and we should admit that. Our last great all-rounder retired in the 90s. Our last great fast bowler retired in 2011. Post Younus we have been struggling to have a dependable middle order player. Our record in every foreign country is so terrible that it's not even worth looking at.

No series win in England since 96. No series win in Australia ever and we last won the test there in 95. Consistent whitewashes in South Africa. Even the team that we bashed for fun New Zealand is now a dreaded test location for us.

I do agree that there's management failure as well but the onus to prepare yourself for test cricket is on the player as well. We can say that Pak public doesn't really want to watch test cricket so the players have no incentive to play it as they get neither fame nor money and we play so little red ball cricket that it's useless for the player anyway. I mean look at Shan Masood, he was the test captain of Pakistan but he makes 3 appearances in a year and then he's gone. Saud, Noman, etc. are also the same where you just see them for 10 days in the year and then they are just left on their own. Compare that to Root or Smith who are literally the faces of cricket even though they are also only active mostly for test cricket.

Test cricket is a labor of love and in this day and age of instant gratification, our players, management, & fans have no time for this & it shows in our results over the last one and a half decade.

I agree that our domestic cricket might not be of the highest standard but what other yardstick will you then use to judge your young batsmen? Crouching to counter low bounce is not a natural flaw but one that is developed due to conditions so it neither implies a lack of talent nor the inability to adapt when confronted with different conditions. In my years of following the game, this is one of the best crop of young batting talent (and i will include Saim and Shafique - his temperament issues notwithstanding - as well) I have seen.

Also, i don't really understand the "they are not ready" concept. You just complained about a lack of talent and subpar domestic standards and then propose that youngsters who are performing well continue playing at the same sub par level because they are not ready for international cricket yet. What will they achieve by doing that if the standards are so low? Why not expose them to international cricket and let them swim or sink instead? Its not as if our test batting lineup is full of irreplaceable batsmen. If a young player has the talent and temperament international cricket won't faze him.

Again, i think its not a talent issue but the reluctance to play the longer format which is hurting our test pipeline. Pace is not everything in international cricket and you yourself mentioned Abbas in your previous post. The likes of Salman and Umar have pretty decent pace. You can't really pass judgement without giving them a chance. Again its not as if your Shaheens and Naseems are setting the world on fire with their performances.

Our test performance might not be remarkable in the past few years but its not as if we were always world beaters. 80s and 90s were not the rule but an exception when we had lots of world class players and even then we were never consistent and if you probe deeply you will find a long list of appalling losses. Apart from those two decades, the record is not too different from what we have now. And our terrible track records in SENA are not an exclusive product of this decade but go back all the way apart from a few exceptional wins.

The last part, I totally agree with. The longer format is not a priority for anyone - the players, administration or the fans. Again, and this is just my personal opinion, I don't think the issue is a lack talent but that of priority. When you play just 6 or 7 tests all year, your main players and admin prioritize T20 over FC, your fans don't want to watch tests, how then can one expect it to flourish?

 

[GoUgandaCranes]

I agree that our domestic cricket might not be of the highest standard but what other yardstick will you then use to judge your young batsmen? Crouching to counter low bounce is not a natural flaw but one that is developed due to conditions so it neither implies a lack of talent nor the inability to adapt when confronted with different conditions. In my years of following the game, this is one of the best crop of young batting talent (and i will include Saim and Shafique - his temperament issues notwithstanding - as well) I have seen.

Also, i don't really understand the "they are not ready" concept. You just complained about a lack of talent and subpar domestic standards and then propose that youngsters who are performing well continue playing at the same sub par level because they are not ready for international cricket yet. What will they achieve by doing that if the standards are so low? Why not expose them to international cricket and let them swim or sink instead? Its not as if our test batting lineup is full of irreplaceable batsmen. If a young player has the talent and temperament international cricket won't faze him.

Again, i think its not a talent issue but the reluctance to play the longer format which is hurting our test pipeline. Pace is not everything in international cricket and you yourself mentioned Abbas in your previous post. The likes of Salman and Umar have pretty decent pace. You can't really pass judgement without giving them a chance. Again its not as if your Shaheens and Naseems are setting the world on fire with their performances.

Our test performance might not be remarkable in the past few years but its not as if we were always world beaters. 80s and 90s were not the rule but an exception when we had lots of world class players and even then we were never consistent and if you probe deeply you will find a long list of appalling losses. Apart from those two decades, the record is not too different from what we have now. And our terrible track records in SENA are not an exclusive product of this decade but go back all the way apart from a few exceptional wins.

The last part, I totally agree with. The longer format is not a priority for anyone - the players, administration or the fans. Again, and this is just my personal opinion, I don't think the issue is a lack talent but that of priority. When you play just 6 or 7 tests all year, your main players and admin prioritize T20 over FC, your fans don't want to watch tests, how then can one expect it to flourish?

They are not ready for test cricket means that these players have to do more to make a name before they can replace the current players in the team. Domestic cricket to international cricket is a big jump and most of the work has to be done by the player himself. When you say that this is the best crop of batters, you are also underrating some of our past cricketing players. Imran Farhat e.g. is a player that has always been made fun of but his FC average is 40 plus which just shows that he was not as bad a player as he's made out to be.

Pace is not everything in test cricket but Umar also isn't the line and length bowler that Abbas is. Sameen Gul and Arshad Iqbal are kind of players who could have become good red ball prospects but haven't been for one or the other reason. Teams are also built different now a days, it's okay to have one Abbas in the team but three pacers of the same speed and style will not work. A team needs to have at least one 140 kph+ bowler if not two.

I agree that 80s and 90s was not the norm and an exception and this is why I say that our current prospects are not red ball cricketers. My entire premise is this argument that you are in agreement of, red ball is not our priority and even if someone has some potential to play it, they'll stop concentrating on it because it's too much effort for not so much reward.

A lot has changed in test cricket specially in terms of batters ability to score faster but some fundamentals to be a great test team remain consistent & in my opinion they are

1. A decent opening pair & solid number 3
2. One great/ATG middle order batter
3. A good keeper
4. 2 quality fast bowlers
5. A spinner
6. An all-rounder

Two to three players in a good team can be railu kattas but 7-8 need to be really good.

From where I see, I only see Saud who has the potential to be a local great let alone an ATG. We have Rizwan as a keeper but everything else is up for grabs. We can also come back to this thread in a couple of years and see how many of the names that you have mentioned are able to grab these spots. I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

 

[amvbfm]

@GoUgandaCranes missed quoting you in the response

I think the first and last paragraphs of your post are a bit contradictory. You say the youngsters have to make a name before they can replace existing players and then in the last para you say except two positions everything else is up for grabs Who will grab these opportunities if not these youngsters? I would agree with the last paragraph more than the first one. Our opening is unsettled with Abdullah, Imam, Shan, Saim all in the mix but not being able to cement their positions. Similarly with Babar's decline the middle order too looks unsettled. So there is plenty of opportunity for these players and for the management to try something new.

Farhat was a pretty decent LOI player and could have been a very good T20 player had he played a decade later. His test and FC credentials are more questionable though. I don't put a lot of weight in domestic runs because that doesn't always translate into success. Players like Farhat, Sajid Ali, Ijaz Jnr. made a mountain of domestic runs but their game never looked suited for international cricket. Others like Asif Mujtaba who had both the technique and domestic runs didn't seem to have the right temperament or like in the case of Fawad weren't treated fairly.

When i am rating those youngsters, its totally my own judgment (which may be completely wrong) based on my years watching the game. Its more of an eye test coupled with domestic stats. I agree that international stage is different and players can falter in the transition but more often if the basics and talent are there they swim rather than sink and i feel the likes of Azan, Shahzaib, Shamyl, Maaz and Zaryab might be able to swim. Another indicator is how a youngster consistently makes runs at all age group levels and beyond. I would be really happy if at least two of them establish themselves in the senior team. But I would be even happier if Abdullah and Saim could establish themselves at the top, as i really think they are the most talented young bats in the country. Unfortunately Abdullah doesn't seem to have the right temperament. But i agree that from FC to establishing yourself as a permanent fixture in the international team is a long way and there are plenty of variables that can lead to failure but i am still optimistic about our young batsmen.

I understand your point about variety in pace attack but unfortunately we don't have that and have to make do with what we do have which is why i'm surprised that we don't play Abbas more often. I feel Khurram should be the first name on the team sheet for us in tests. You might not agree with me but both Salman and Umar have the capacity to surprise if given a chance under the right conditions. Arshad, i admit was a very un-Pakistani bowler with his height and bounce and its unfortunate that he couldn't establish himself.

I agree completely that test cricket will not flourish unless given attention, my only point is it is not due to lack of talent. The talent is there but the push to shape that talent into test players is totally absent. The entire reward system is skewed towards T20 cricket and its no surprise that a youngster looking to make a career prefers T20 as financial security is very important for most of these young players given their background. Another issue as you pointed out earlier is that most of the top players don't play any FC throughout the year and yet automatically get selected in the test team which is unfair for those who toil at the FC level. If you want to promote the game and groom youngsters why not institute some minimum requirement where only those players who have played a minimum number of FC games should be up for test selection.

I am generally pretty pessimistic but surprisingly I have hope about the young talent coming through. But at the same time I don't have any hope that the system will be fixed so i won't be surprised if some of them fall through the cracks. Lets revisit this in a couple of year's time