What's new

Dale Steyn or Curtly Ambrose - The better Test bowler?

Hasan123

Test Star
Joined
Mar 25, 2016
Runs
38,432
Ambrose has some brilliant numbers and his nagging line and length caused many batsmen problems. Styen in an era of flat pitches and batsmen dominated era has terrific numbers. Also has performed in most conditions.

Who would you pick as the better test bowler?
 
[MENTION=97523]Buffet[/MENTION] [MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION] [MENTION=134809]sensible-indian-fan[/MENTION] [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] [MENTION=138463]Slog[/MENTION] [MENTION=134608]Hawkeye[/MENTION] [MENTION=53290]Markhor[/MENTION] [MENTION=139595]Ab Fan[/MENTION] [MENTION=138980]TalentSpotterPk[/MENTION] [MENTION=139664]street cricketer[/MENTION] [MENTION=133315]Hitman[/MENTION] [MENTION=76058]cricketjoshila[/MENTION]
 
Ambrose has some brilliant numbers and his nagging line and length caused many batsmen problems. Styen in an era of flat pitches and batsmen dominated era has terrific numbers. Also has performed in most conditions.

Who would you pick as the better test bowler?

Ambrose was way better attacking and faster bowler then Styen
 
Ambrose was way better attacking and faster bowler then Styen

More attacking ? Steyn has a better SR by 13 balls.

Also I cannot discuss the speed of Ambrose as I personally didn't watch him live but Steyn's average pace was in the low 140 kphs when he wasn't getting regularly injured and he had the ability to crank it up to 150kph when in full flight. I can't imagine Ambrose being much faster on average or perhaps a bit slower considering his size, at peak he may have been quicker but again that would be better discussed with those that have seen Ambrose live. I don't think speed beyond a certain extent is necessary to be great, historically most bowlers who could bowl at 140 kph and move the ball have done better than bowlers who bowled at 150kph with no or minimal movement.
 
Steyn for me..Is wayy ahead of his competitors..

Ambrose is a certified ATG too..
 
Curtly a level above. He'd average 19 if SA was his home country and make a mockery of the watered down opposition Steyn faced.
 
More attacking ? Steyn has a better SR by 13 balls.

Also I cannot discuss the speed of Ambrose as I personally didn't watch him live but Steyn's average pace was in the low 140 kphs when he wasn't getting regularly injured and he had the ability to crank it up to 150kph when in full flight. I can't imagine Ambrose being much faster on average or perhaps a bit slower considering his size, at peak he may have been quicker but again that would be better discussed with those that have seen Ambrose live. I don't think speed beyond a certain extent is necessary to be great, historically most bowlers who could bowl at 140 kph and move the ball have done better than bowlers who bowled at 150kph with no or minimal movement.

I saw pretty much all of Ambrose. He was very good with extracting extra bonce and extremely deadly on uneven bounce. He troubled batsmen due to extra bounce and not just due to pace. Without injury, Steyn is quicker.

Between these two, I will go with Steyn. Ambrose is also right up there because he was the best bowler in 90s along with McGrath.
 
Different type of bowlers. You'd ideally want both types in a perfect bowling line up.
 
[MENTION=97523]Buffet[/MENTION] [MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION] [MENTION=134809]sensible-indian-fan[/MENTION] [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] [MENTION=138463]Slog[/MENTION] [MENTION=134608]Hawkeye[/MENTION] [MENTION=53290]Markhor[/MENTION] [MENTION=139595]Ab Fan[/MENTION] [MENTION=138980]TalentSpotterPk[/MENTION] [MENTION=139664]street cricketer[/MENTION] [MENTION=133315]Hitman[/MENTION] [MENTION=76058]cricketjoshila[/MENTION]

Different type of bowlers - if I am to pick one, I'll pick Ambi. Having said that, Styen was equally successful in AUS, UK & Asia, which I can't tell for Ambi. Also, Ambi wasn't better with old ball - but for his absolute best on his suitable condition, Ambi was mean & lethal. Syten bowls in a batting friendly era, which is well reflected in his ODI stats, but in Test matches, he is bowling in a cheap batting era - arguably, I don't thank many of the players currently averaging 48 or over would have averaged more than 29 starting career 20 years back.
 
[MENTION=97523]Buffet[/MENTION] [MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION] [MENTION=134809]sensible-indian-fan[/MENTION] [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] [MENTION=138463]Slog[/MENTION] [MENTION=134608]Hawkeye[/MENTION] [MENTION=53290]Markhor[/MENTION] [MENTION=139595]Ab Fan[/MENTION] [MENTION=138980]TalentSpotterPk[/MENTION] [MENTION=139664]street cricketer[/MENTION] [MENTION=133315]Hitman[/MENTION] [MENTION=76058]cricketjoshila[/MENTION]

This is a tough one.Both are absolute legends,but i will go for Steyn because the ability to hit 150ks plus gives just that bit extra.

Also Ambrose did absolutely nothing in India. NOTHING.Not bowling to the best Batsman of 90s in his home turf,takes away a lot of your sheen.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I will go with Steyn. Ambrose was great, but I would still prefer Steyn. Also, I would think that Steyn is faster of the 2. There were no speed guns to check Ambrose's speed, but my guess is he was around early 140's to 145. Steyn used to bowl 150+ regularly.
 
I’ll pick Ambrose over Steyn any day of the week. He’s pretty much McGrath plus scarier and a bit quicker. As far as Tests are concerned right up there at the top of the pile alongside Marshall and McGrath for mine.
 
Just to back that up

Ambrose vs top 6 (ie excl SL and Zim) - 19 out of the 24 series he averaged under 25 with the ball so that’s around 80%. Unreal!

Link

Steyn vs top 6 (ie excl WI, Bangla and Zim) only 16 out of the 30 series he averaged under 25 with the ball so that’s only a bit over 50%.

Link

Now you can’t use the tougher conditions card here for Steyn because he mostly played in SA and Test batting units around the world haven’t been all that great either. Plus had more gun players in his side to share the workload throughout most of his career. So the playing field evens out more or less.

Also should mention that Steyn hasn’t done all that well against lefties (averages 30 odd) and against Aus/Eng, the best players of pace post 2000s (averages around the 30 mark against them). Add to that most of the top bats during his time don’t even mention him when asked about the best bowlers they faced. Says it all I think.
 
Steyn averaged around the 30 mark against Aus and Eng even in SA.
 
In tests I think strike rate is more important then averages. Steyn has a better strike rate....so for me its Steyn
 
More attacking ? Steyn has a better SR by 13 balls.

Also I cannot discuss the speed of Ambrose as I personally didn't watch him live but Steyn's average pace was in the low 140 kphs when he wasn't getting regularly injured and he had the ability to crank it up to 150kph when in full flight. I can't imagine Ambrose being much faster on average or perhaps a bit slower considering his size, at peak he may have been quicker but again that would be better discussed with those that have seen Ambrose live. I don't think speed beyond a certain extent is necessary to be great, historically most bowlers who could bowl at 140 kph and move the ball have done better than bowlers who bowled at 150kph with no or minimal movement.

I am lucky enough to see both of them Ambrose use to attack body and was more lethal and actual definition of fast and furious and also bowled to some technically sound and dangerous batsman. Taking away nothing from Steyn but I Ambrose was faster than Steyn. In today's world Steyn is way better.
 
In the end, bowlers are employed to take wickets and no other format is this more important than in Test cricket. “Wickets win matches” the old proverb says.

Ambrose took 405 wickets in 98 matches that is over 4 wickets per match while Steyn has taken 417 wickets in his 85 matches that is nearly 5 wickets per match, despite playing in an era that heavily favours the batsman.
 
This one is really hard. Steyn is more reliable and tested but Ambrose on his day was literally unplayable. I will go with Ambrose.
 
Steyn averaged around the 30 mark against Aus and Eng even in SA.

Nah.

He averaged 28.5 against them at home.

That too because of one series as newbie in 2004 where he averaged 50.

The next series he played against them at home was in 2008. From that period, he averaged 25.31.

Eng & Aus in home - http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...n=2;template=results;type=bowling;view=series

Eng & Aus apart from the newbie series - http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...pan;template=results;type=bowling;view=series
 
AMBROSE'S Period

Amid Ambrose's period, pace bowlers averaged 29.79 runs for every wicket while Ambrose averaged a brilliant 20.99. So Ambrose was 42% superior to the normal bowler in this parameter. The pace bowlers in his time had a strike rate of 63.2 balls for every wicket while Ambrose was 54.5. This relates to Ambrose being 16% better in this parameter. In Ambrose time, pace bowlers had an economy rate of 2.85 while Ambrose's economy rate was 2.30, that is 24% superior to his partners. Considering these three principle playing factual parameters, by and large, Ambrose was 27% superior to the normal bowlers of his period. In measurements, particularly for a similar investigation like this, anything more than 20% is exceptional.

STEYN'S Time

Amid Steyn's time, bowlers average 33.24 runs for each wicket while Steyn averages an astonishing 22.3. Steyn is 47% superior to the normal bowler in this parameter. In Steyn's period, pace bowlers have a strike rate of 61.5 balls for each wicket while Steyn is 41.4. This compares to Steyn being approximately 47% better in this parameter. In Steyn's time, economy rates of pace bowlers are 3.24 while Steyn's economy rate is 3.22. Consequently Steyn is no superior to the pace bowlers of his period in this parameter, which relates to approximately 0% better. So all things considered, Steyn has been 31% superior to the normal bowlers of his era. Keep in mind Ambrose was just 27% superior to his companions.

Time Components

Each era has its concrete factors that distinguish it from another era. Many will accede objectively though that Ambrose’s era was more bowler-friendly than Steyn’s era, many circumstances are heavily in favour of the batsmen now in Steyn’s era. The rule changes, field size, the number of bouncers that can be bowled per over, flatter pitches and technological advancements in the batsman’s bat, etc have all put bowlers in Steyn’s era at a disadvantage. However, how would each bowler do in the other’s era?

AMBROSE IN STEYN'S Time

Ambrose had a career bowling average 20.99, strike rate of 54.5 and an economy rate of 2.30 in his time. Theoretically, if Ambrose played in Steyn's period his bowling average would be 23.43, strike rate 53.4 and an economy of 2.63 based on how far ahead Ambrose was from his contemporaries. These numbers are phenomenal yet similar to Steyn's in this time: bowling average of 22.3, strike rate 41.4 and economy of 3.22. Both Ambrose's and the period's attributes are held by this projection.

STEYN IN AMBROSE'S Time

Steyn's vocation playing normal prior said is 22.3, strike rate 41.4 and economy 3.22. Notwithstanding, if Steyn played in Ambrose's period his bowling average would be 20.22, strike rate 42.6 and economy 2.85 in light of how Steyn separated himself from his contemporaries. These numbers are unfathomable yet still similar to Ambrose's in his time: with a bowling average of 20.99, strike rate 54.5 and economy rate 2.30. At the end of the day Steyn's and the period's qualities are held by this projection.

The Better Wicket Taker
I would like to quote [MENTION=141390]Ellipsism[/MENTION] for this, as I believe he has summed it up perfectly:
"In the end, bowlers are employed to take wickets and no other format is this more important than in Test cricket. “Wickets win matches” the old proverb says.

Ambrose took 405 wickets in 98 matches that is over 4 wickets per match while Steyn has taken 417 wickets in his 85 matches that is nearly 5 wickets per match, despite playing in an era that heavily favours the batsman

CONCLUSION

So the intra-period investigation is demonstrating that Steyn has separated himself from his associates at a more noteworthy rate than Ambrose, 31% instead of 27%. The between time investigation is demonstrating that Steyn would have better numbers in Ambrose's time instead of Ambrose in Steyn's period. In conclusion, Steyn is undoubtedly the better bowler.
 
Nah.

He averaged 28.5 against them at home.

That too because of one series as newbie in 2004 where he averaged 50.

The next series he played against them at home was in 2008. From that period, he averaged 25.31.

Eng & Aus in home - http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...n=2;template=results;type=bowling;view=series

Eng & Aus apart from the newbie series - http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...pan;template=results;type=bowling;view=series

Well 29 is around the 30 mark isn't it. But yeah fair point about the rest. My bad should have gone through the series by series averages as well.

Still all this Steyn has had it tougher stuff I just don't buy. In LOIs yes but Tests definitely not.
 
Against the top six

Ambrose

Overall - 169 innings 383 wkts @ 21.4 (2.3 wkts/inning)
Home - 85 innings 184 wkts @ 22 (2.2 wkts/inning)
Away - 84 innings 199 wkts @ 21 (2.4 wkts/inning)

Steyn

Overall - 128 innings 333 wkts @ 23.4 (2.6 wkts/inning)
Home - 73 innings 200 wkts @ 20.9 (2.7 wkts/inning)
Away - 55 innings 133 wkts @ 27.2 (2.4 wkts/inning)

So as you can see by those numbers while Ambrose has a balanced home/away record Steyn has fared significantly better at home as opposed to away. Over 60% of his Test wickets against the top teams have been taken at home which has helped him drag that bowling average down and the wkts/inning tally up. That’s hardly a surprise, in SA the conditions are very much conducive to fast bowling. When you add NZ, Eng and Oz into the mix as well we are talking about 80% of Steyn’s matches against the top six in pace friendly/familiar conditions.

Plus Steyn has played in a top notch side for the most part with plenty of gun players to share the workload. As for the fielding side of things around 65% of Steyn's wickets are caught and his caught to bowled/lbw ratio is around 2:1. So he is heavily reliant on his fielding unit for his wickets, and fortunately for him he has one of the best ever fielding units to work with, they hardly miss a chance.

So when you add all that up not sure how the tougher conditions and what not card can be used for Steyn. If any thing it could be argued that he’s actually at a significant advantage overall.
 
Curtly. You had to see him at his pomp charging through the crease to see that he was a once in a generation talent.

However, that doesn't say that Steyn wouldn't be a better bowler in certain conditions: if I was picking a side to play in the subcontinent, I'd pick Steyn ahead of Ambrose.
 
Curtly. You had to see him at his pomp charging through the crease to see that he was a once in a generation talent.

However, that doesn't say that Steyn wouldn't be a better bowler in certain conditions: if I was picking a side to play in the subcontinent, I'd pick Steyn ahead of Ambrose.

At his best, Ambrose was crazy.
 
Steyn's only competition is Pidge and Marshall for GOAT fast bowler in Tests. Ambrose is slightly behind IMO. But probably the most scary bowler to face when he was in the mood. Scarier than even peak Waqar.
 
Steyn easily,he's only second to mcgra

By borrowing Bhogle's words,

It is human nature to underrate the present and grossly overrate the past, but if you outlaw that trait, the time has come to place Steyn among the greatest
 
This is a tough one.Both are absolute legends,but i will go for Steyn because the ability to hit 150ks plus gives just that bit extra.

Also Ambrose did absolutely nothing in India. NOTHING.Not bowling to the best Batsman of 90s in his home turf,takes away a lot of your sheen.

Really though?

Steyn hasnt averaged 142-143 kph in a spell for well over 7-8 years...

His test speed average just hovers between 138-142kph

Tbh he was never a 150+ bowler
 
Back
Top