Dale Steyn vs Waqar Younis: Who’s the better Test bowler?

[Buffet]

Bro only 5-ers cannot define the legacy of a bowler... there are many other factors too in which Waqar is neck to neck with Steyn.

The ability of bowlers to run through stronger sides shapes the legacy more than anything.

What other factor comes even remotely close to defining the legacy of bowlers?

I mean, all of up look for how much impact you can have against the good sides.

 

[kron]

Thst

Funny to see Indian fans downplaying Steyn after what he did to the Fab 4 heroes in Nagpur and Ahmedabad. And how he made a fool out of Rohit Sharma. Come to India he said and commentators made fun of Rohit showing what Steyn had done in India lol. Personally I loved how Steyn humiliated the overrated Dravid every single time, both home and away.

That's more to do with fan 4 being overrated than steyn. England And aus and even pakistam handled him fine

 

[umerz]

Steyn was better in tests and Waqar in ODI. Overall i would say Steyn who has performed everywhere particularly against Aus in Aus and vs Ind in Ind.

 

[RidiculousMan]

Dale Steyn for me.

 

[Swashbuckler]

Thst

That's more to do with fan 4 being overrated than steyn. England And aus and even pakistam handled him fine

Steyn won series in Eng, in Aus, and in Pak as well. In Pak he won just after debut.

 

[Fanboy375]

In Tests, Steyn is right up there because he played in the era of batting roads and was so far ahead of the other names of his era. I would have him ahead of Garner from those names.

In odi it is true curators make pitch to flavor batsman because of fans demand but in test pitch hasn't changed much.Today we see less draw matches than what we used to see in 90s.Waqar had peak until 1993 after that he was average to above average bowler for Pak.Steyn had consistency but Waqar had better early days

 

[atreus]

Steyn by a humongous margin.

 

[Kianig89]

Steyn with new ball, Waqar with the old leather

 

[Buffet]

Steyn by a humongous margin.

+1 It's even close. Waqar does not even average under 25 against non-minnows.



List of all pacers in the last 55 years with below 25 avg and 150 plus test wickets against non-minnows.

Steyn shows up here with Avg of 23 with SR of 43.




Not able to avearge below 25 against non-minnows can be ignored if you can have outsized impact or perform really well against top teams.

Top 5 impactful pacers in away test in the last 55 years: Steyn shows up with 8 5-fers in win against non-minnows.

 

[Buffet]

As I said,

Not able to avearge below 25 against non-minnows can be ignored if you can have outsized impact or perform really well against top teams.

Here are the top 6 teams in 90s:



Here is Waqar's output home and away combined against top 6 teams:

 

[big_gamer007]

Steyn is a league or two above Waqar.

This is not a comparison at all.

 

[Buffet]

We are discussing Root not being an ATG in other thread because he may not avearge over 50 in career or he has not had lots of away tons, not even total tons, against top 3-4 teams.

And some of the same posters may rate Waqar as an ATG test bowler despite,

• Not averaging below 25 against non-minnows
• Averaging 28-29 involving top 6 teams, not just against the best team of his era.

Question is: How many of you rate Waqar as a Test ATG with this kind of output? I rate him as a test great but barely and not by a good margin. If I ever tighten my criterion, Waqar simply does not make the cut. I rate Steyn as an ATG test bowler by some margin without hesitation.

This new ball Steyn and old ball Waqar misses the point. Old or new ball, you need to pick wickets cheaply. You could be simply old ball specialist and knock tails cheaply, but if you still average 28-29 in games involving good teams then I don't think Waqar belongs in discussion in leagues of Steyn kind of pacers.

 

[Bhaijaan]

Waqar is by far the better ODI bowler.

Steyn is better than Waqar in tests but not by far. Waqar is a legend of the game please stop the disrespect and stop saying Steyn by far. Waqar had a freakish run early in his career and Jadeja did change him as a bowler. If Jadeja did not happen, there is an arguement Waqar could have retired as GOAT.

 

[sweep_shot]

Steyn with new ball, Waqar with the old leather

Yup. I agree with this.

Waqar was lethal with the old ball. Reverse swing and whatnot.

 

[Buffet]

I actually made a mistake in filter with top 6 teams, instead of Eng, SL was top 6 in 90s. But his fame is performacne in Eng so if you take it out then he has 1-2 spells agasint WI as his fame when he was at his peak. So we can keep Eng perfromance. Anyway, collectively he does not average below 25 against non-minnows. SL also won their first test in 90s in entire history so not exacly great team in early 90s.

 

[Buffet]

Waqar had a freakish run early in his career and Jadeja did change him as a bowler. If Jadeja did not happen, there is an arguement Waqar could have retired as GOAT.

Any bowler can get hit for 2 overs. I don't think that changed the trajectgory for Waqar.


Waqar's freakish run does not look freakish against tests involving Aus, SA, WI, Eng, Ind and Pak





If some one think oh what about Waqar's perfromance agasint SL and NZ in early 90s, SL had won only 2 tests in entire history till 1992 and were minnows in early 90s. NZ was just above SL in early 90s and not a good team.

See below W/L of all teams during Waqar's peak period in early 90s.

 

[Buffet]

SL also won their first test in 90s in entire history so not exacly great team in early 90s.

Correction: won first test in 80s and had their third test win in history in Dec 1992. A minnow team which was improving in early 90s and became a non-minnow due to performing well later.

 

[atreus]

Waqar did well against a little fading Windies but still good attack, other than that he bullied a horrible NZ lineup, a lot of batters found their way around him — Desmond Haynes, Martin Crowe, Graham Gooch, Alec Stewart and even Robin Smith, Mark Taylor, Dean Jones etc

 

[Ab Fan]

Steyn is better but I will have Waqar as ATG too. Waqar has 700-800 wickets in total. That is greatness for fast bowler especially coming from Asian conditions.

 

[Ab Fan]

Waqar did well against a little fading Windies but still good attack, other than that he bullied a horrible NZ lineup, a lot of batters found their way around him — Desmond Haynes, Martin Crowe, Graham Gooch, Alec Stewart and even Robin Smith, Mark Taylor, Dean Jones etc

Haynes, Gooch and Crowe are elite batters.

 

[Buffet]

Waqar did well against a little fading Windies but still good attack, other than that he bullied a horrible NZ lineup, a lot of batters found their way around him — Desmond Haynes, Martin Crowe, Graham Gooch, Alec Stewart and even Robin Smith, Mark Taylor, Dean Jones etc

And that was in his peak, outside of his peak he has 1 5-fers against non-minnows in 43 tests with avg of 31-32.

 

[atreus]

Haynes, Gooch and Crowe are elite batters.

That's why I listed Stewart/Robin Smith and co, though in my eyes, unless you're a spinner, every ATG pacer should've an elite batter they dominate.

 

[Buffet]

Steyn is better but I will have Waqar as ATG too. Waqar has 700-800 wickets in total.

At least I have seen you maintaining consistency by naming many players debuting after 00s as greats. I see many posters downplaying all current era players despite having a better output against good teams and yet they will say that Waqar was an ATG in test format or ODI format. If we apply the same standard then he won't make the cut in any format.

I am also guilty of it a bit to be honest. I am asking Root/Kohli/Ashwin/Rabada to do more when they have actually done far more than Waqar did and yet I put Waqar over the line as a test great. To be consistent, I should take out Waqar as test great or don't be that harsh on current era players.

You have seen that I am asking why Root has so little in Ahses and why he has only 4 tons in Aus/Ind/SA. I think that's too harsh if I am rating Waqar as test great.

 

[sweep_shot]

At least I have seen you maintaining consistency by naming many players debuting after 00s as greats. I see many posters downplaying all current era players despite having a better output against good teams and yet they will say that Waqar was an ATG in test format or ODI format. If we apply the same standard then he won't make the cut in any format.

Quality of current era is not same as quality of 1990's era. Quality was higher in 1990's.

You tend to assume all eras have similar qualities.

 

[Hellion]

Steyn is comfortably the better Test bowler. Top 3 bowler all time.

Waqar was maybe the better ODI bowler but didn't do anything useful in World Cups either

 

[Buffet]

Quality of current era is not same as quality of 1990's era. Quality was higher in 1990's.

You tend to assume all eras have similar qualities.

All era are different with different challenges.

We shouldn't be saying that 10th best player of one era is better than top 3-4 players in a different era as long as we are talking about competetive cricket days with 4-5 good teams. Otherwise we are simply being hugely biased in rating players.

 

[Ab Fan]

At least I have seen you maintaining consistency by naming many players debuting after 00s as greats. I see many posters downplaying all current era players despite having a better output against good teams and yet they will say that Waqar was an ATG in test format or ODI format. If we apply the same standard then he won't make the cut in any format.

I am also guilty of it a bit to be honest. I am asking Root/Kohli/Ashwin/Rabada to do more when they have actually done far more than Waqar did and yet I put Waqar over the line as a test great. To be consistent, I should take out Waqar as test great or don't be that harsh on current era players.

You have seen that I am asking why Root has so little in Ahses and why he has only 4 tons in Aus/Ind/SA. I think that's too harsh if I am rating Waqar as test great.

Yes, Excluding BD and Zim, Waqar is left with only 293 test wickets at avg of 25.16. He is behind McGrath, Donald, Ambrose, Wasim, Pollock, Steyn, Bumrah, Cummins, Rabada, Imran, Walsh, Lillee, Garner, Holding all of them.

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

If you further exclude minnowish NZ and SL of early 90s, those stats take even big fall.

Waqar is clearly not a true ATG fast bowler as some might to think of having grown up in 90s as a kid. However, I would have him as lower tier ATG due to being a genuine pace bowler and having a career of 780 international wickets at average under 25. That wickets tally is right up there so I think that just compels me to put him in that league.

 

[kron]

Quality of current era is not same as quality of 1990's era. Quality was higher in 1990's.

You tend to assume all eras have similar qualities.

Said no one ever

Quality was average back then

Much better.

We can all do the same. They played for draw in 90s and 80s. Weak as boring era

 

[sweep_shot]

Said no one ever

Quality was average back then

Much better.

We can all do the same. They played for draw in 90s and 80s. Weak as boring era

I personally do not think you watched cricket live before 2010. I say this because you said ATG Aussie team were overrated and were reliant on McGrath. Only someone who didn't watch that period probably would say something like that.

 

[kron]

I personally do not think you watched cricket live before 2010. I say this because you said ATG Aussie team were overrated and were reliant on McGrath. Only someone who didn't watch that period probably would say something like that.

I watched plenty since 90s

I personally think you are clueless tbh.

And yes atg aussie lineup take mcg out they don't win as much. That is a fact.

That's why india could draw in aus in 03. Cause mcg dint play

He is the goat bowler.

 

[BouncerGuy]

Both are one of the greatest of all time. Waqar was more multi-dimensional bowler that Steyn. Almost same stats but Number of games are more for waqar.

 

[Hikaru]

Waqar was a Pakistani great who's struggles against top sides were too big to call him an ATG.

Steyn was an ATG, a superior bowler in every sense.

 

[Fanboy375]

+1 It's even close. Waqar does not even average under 25 against non-minnows.



List of all pacers in the last 55 years with below 25 avg and 150 plus test wickets against non-minnows.

Steyn shows up here with Avg of 23 with SR of 43.

View attachment 148318


Not able to avearge below 25 against non-minnows can be ignored if you can have outsized impact or perform really well against top teams.

Top 5 impactful pacers in away test in the last 55 years: Steyn shows up with 8 5-fers in win against non-minnows.

View attachment 148319

Another thing is that during Waqar time batsman score less against pace but in Steyn time batsman score very high

 

[Buffet]

Another thing is that during Waqar time batsman score less against pace but in Steyn time batsman score very high
View attachment 148342

That's because we saw some of the flattest pitches in 00s period. We had 13 batsmen with avg 50 plus in 00s compared to 90s when only 3 batsmen averaged 50 plus with 5K runs.

That's why raw averages without looking how they did against the top teams of their era and impact of pacers is meanigless. Easiest way to see if player stood out in their era compared to peers.

All era have their own challenges. That's why I think it's irrational argument to make that 8th best player of one era is greater than best player from another era saying that some era was golden and tougher.

We had just 7-8 decades of cricket with lots of teams. So if you can be top player for 10 years then you simply belong among the top 10-15 players in 7-8 decades. Steyn was best test bowler for 10 years.