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Dale Steyn vs Waqar Younis: Who’s the better Test bowler?

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kron

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Waqar younis is one of the best. Dale steyn is a legend but who wins this battle between 2 greats of the game ?

here are dale steyn's stats in away conditions. its actually not as impressive as i thought it was. england record and australia is somewhat average. also bit poor in u.a.e

dale steyn record in PIAEN As west indies were mediocre in his time : 27.414
sri lanka were a decent side till about 2011 and he wasnt particularly good in lanka.

1707354883278.png


here are waqar's stats:

mind you he only played 2 games vs india away from home. but glaring issues in australia, did struggle in india, not so great in new zealand and not as good as i thought in SA either.

1707354941993.png

thats an average of 37.522 in SENAIW

if you discount the 2 games in india (SENAW) as its a small sample size then waqar's average turns out to be : 29.656


waqar did face a weaker new zealand side compared to dale steyn and that could be a mitigating factor.
steyn faced and bullied a much weaker west indian side, conversely waqar faced a strong west indies team in the 90s.
india were formidable at home in both eras and they were an atg team under dhoni around mid 2000 to 2011.

looks to me like both are not what we thought and are a fair bit below the likes of wasim, imran, mcgrath, ambrose, marshall, even donald etc

currently i would argue modern greats like cummins bumrah can be easily above waqar and steyn.

shoaib dint play enough to be rated highly. needed atleast 60 games. but he carried a weak side.
asif is a fixer. so dint include them for comparison.
 
courtney walsh averages 23 overall based on his record in australia, india, england, new zealand, pakistan and south africa.

although its 34 in australia and 24 in england. australia, pakistan, india at home, south africa were top sides at the time apart from west indies.
new zealand and england were weak.
 
Dale Steyn is comfortably a better bowler of the two in tests.

His England record is slightly skewed due to flat roads served in England 2012 tour because of the fear of Steyn, Philander and Morkel combo.

In white ball cricket, both are at same level. Neither won title but Steyn has better economy than Waqar considering the era he bowled. Waqar has slightly better average and had longevity on his side.
 
Ab Fan said:
Dale Steyn is comfortably a better bowler of the two in tests.

His England record is slightly skewed due to flat roads served in England 2012 tour because of the fear of Steyn, Philander and Morkel combo.

In white ball cricket, both are at same level. Neither won title but Steyn has better economy than Waqar considering the era he bowled. Waqar has slightly better average and had longevity on his side.
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agree with this. but steyn gets wildly overrated here. he is clearly a tier below mcgrath, marshall, wasim, imran, garner, ambrose etc. waqar is one further tier below steyn. if it werent for injuries, i am certain shoaib would have been further up.
 
Ab Fan said:
In white ball cricket, both are at same level. Neither won title but Steyn has better economy than Waqar considering the era he bowled. Waqar has slightly better average and had longevity on his side.
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Waqar had 416 ODI wickets. Dale Steyn had 196 ODI wickets.

Waqar also had a better ODI bowling average.
 
sweep_shot said:
Waqar had 416 ODI wickets. Dale Steyn had 196 ODI wickets.

Waqar also had a better ODI bowling average.
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waqar is well ahead in odi but not as good in tests.
steyn also is overrated in tests tbh.

i can name atleast 7 to 9 bowlers better than him.
 
kron said:
agree with this. but steyn gets wildly overrated here. he is clearly a tier below mcgrath, marshall, wasim, imran, garner, ambrose etc. waqar is one further tier below steyn. if it werent for injuries, i am certain shoaib would have been further up.
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In Tests, Steyn is right up there because he played in the era of batting roads and was so far ahead of the other names of his era. I would have him ahead of Garner from those names.
 
sweep_shot said:
Waqar had 416 ODI wickets. Dale Steyn had 196 ODI wickets.

Waqar also had a better ODI bowling average.
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Some of that has also got to do with addition of T20s which reduced the number of ODIs played in Steyn's era. But as I said, I would give Waqar the longevity advantage. 416 wickets is no joke in any era but he was on expensive side.
 
Ab Fan said:
In Tests, Steyn is right up there because he played in the era of batting roads and was so far ahead of the other names of his era. I would have him ahead of Garner from those names.
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every era had their fair share of roads. steyn's numbers dont appear that impressive to me in away conditions except against india due to reverse.
steyn also played from 2006 to 2017. his peak was between 2007 to 2013/14
 
kron said:
every era had their fair share of roads. steyn's numbers dont appear that impressive to me in away conditions except against india due to reverse.
steyn also played from 2006 to 2017. his peak was between 2007 to 2013/14
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Some periods has more share.

2006-2017 batting avg for all sides combined was 34. During Waqar's career batting average of all sides was 32. 2 is very large difference for aggregate.

Steyn has won his team by running through oppositions in their den's in Aus, Ind, Eng, Pak ... That would the the 4 strongest opposition during his playing days.

For Waqar that number is zero. He never ran through 4 strongest oppositions in their dens ( Aus, SA, Ind, WI ) during his playing days.

How many ATG bowlers we know who have made zero impact when playing against top sides in their den? Not one but all top 4 sides.

Steyn could reverse the ball both ways at high speed, but he could also bowl the best out swingers any pacer could bowl. Waqar was not useful with new ball. Waqar is simply not in Steyn's league when it comes to skill and impact. Gap is just too wide.
 
kron said:
walsh btw averages better vs top 4 teams than steyn and waqar away from home.
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Yes, Walsh was a gun bowler. Walsh and Waqar played in the same era against same oppositions. So Walsh having better stats than Waqar is more indicative of how they compare. Walsh kept getting with time and under rated here.

When all said and done. If you stand out as top dog in any era then you stand out. McGrath was stand out in his era. Steyn was in his era. No other bowler had the same impact as them in the test format.
 
kron said:
Waqar younis is one of the best. Dale steyn is a legend but who wins this battle between 2 greats of the game ?

here are dale steyn's stats in away conditions. its actually not as impressive as i thought it was. england record and australia is somewhat average. also bit poor in u.a.e

dale steyn record in PIAEN As west indies were mediocre in his time : 27.414
sri lanka were a decent side till about 2011 and he wasnt particularly good in lanka.

View attachment 142048


here are waqar's stats:

mind you he only played 2 games vs india away from home. but glaring issues in australia, did struggle in india, not so great in new zealand and not as good as i thought in SA either.

View attachment 142049

thats an average of 37.522 in SENAIW

if you discount the 2 games in india (SENAW) as its a small sample size then waqar's average turns out to be : 29.656


waqar did face a weaker new zealand side compared to dale steyn and that could be a mitigating factor.
steyn faced and bullied a much weaker west indian side, conversely waqar faced a strong west indies team in the 90s.
india were formidable at home in both eras and they were an atg team under dhoni around mid 2000 to 2011.

looks to me like both are not what we thought and are a fair bit below the likes of wasim, imran, mcgrath, ambrose, marshall, even donald etc

currently i would argue modern greats like cummins bumrah can be easily above waqar and steyn.

shoaib dint play enough to be rated highly. needed atleast 60 games. but he carried a weak side.
asif is a fixer. so dint include them for comparison.
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If you want to rate some one then simply see what impact they had against the stronger sides during playing days in their den. That's the toughest job for any player.

If you are good enough then you should make some impact and if you are not then you may be good in other ways but not good enough to make that impact.

Average does not tell you the impact. Reminds of me Babar away performance. Now away avg has dropped in mid 30s but it was in 40s with good average in many places, but when all said and done he had like 1-2 tons with zero impact when playing away. I know it's for all sides and not just stronger sides, but same point. Posters used to argue that Babar is good in away conditions due to so and so average. Average is not going to capture the impact. You got to see actually see if bowlers is running through sides few times against stronger side's den.

Give me a bowler who runs makes a huge impact against strong sides in their den and averaging 25 vs another bowler making no impact and averaging 20. Ideally both would be good.
 
Never knew that Steyn didn’t had a great away record.
Still, I will rate him higher than Waqar but definitely not in the sane tier as Mcgrath, Ambrose.
 
Buffet said:
Some periods has more share.

2006-2017 batting avg for all sides combined was 34. During Waqar's career batting average of all sides was 32. 2 is very large difference for aggregate.

Steyn has won his team by running through oppositions in their den's in Aus, Ind, Eng, Pak ... That would the the 4 strongest opposition during his playing days.

For Waqar that number is zero. He never ran through 4 strongest oppositions in their dens ( Aus, SA, Ind, WI ) during his playing days.

How many ATG bowlers we know who have made zero impact when playing against top sides in their den? Not one but all top 4 sides.

Steyn could reverse the ball both ways at high speed, but he could also bowl the best out swingers any pacer could bowl. Waqar was not useful with new ball. Waqar is simply not in Steyn's league when it comes to skill and impact. Gap is just too wide.
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steyn's average in aus and engalnd and pakistan has been average. i did say steyn is better than waqar. just that steyn isnt as good as people make him out to be. he is a good tier below mcgrath, marshall, garner, ambrose, donald even.
 
jeeteshssaxena said:
Never knew that Steyn didn’t had a great away record.
Still, I will rate him higher than Waqar but definitely not in the sane tier as Mcgrath, Ambrose.
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yeap no where near that level.
steyn is very overrated here. he is an atg but not the first tier like mcgrath, the 4 west indian quicks, ambrose, imran and also wasim

at this rate bumrah and cummins might overtake him by the time they retire as they look just as good.
 
Buffet said:
If you want to rate some one then simply see what impact they had against the stronger sides during playing days in their den. That's the toughest job for any player.

If you are good enough then you should make some impact and if you are not then you may be good in other ways but not good enough to make that impact.

Average does not tell you the impact. Reminds of me Babar away performance. Now away avg has dropped in mid 30s but it was in 40s with good average in many places, but when all said and done he had like 1-2 tons with zero impact when playing away. I know it's for all sides and not just stronger sides, but same point. Posters used to argue that Babar is good in away conditions due to so and so average. Average is not going to capture the impact. You got to see actually see if bowlers is running through sides few times against stronger side's den.

Give me a bowler who runs makes a huge impact against strong sides in their den and averaging 25 vs another bowler making no impact and averaging 20. Ideally both would be good.
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steyn without morkel wouldnt have the same impact. bowlers work in pairs anyway
 
Buffet said:
Yes, Walsh was a gun bowler. Walsh and Waqar played in the same era against same oppositions. So Walsh having better stats than Waqar is more indicative of how they compare. Walsh kept getting with time and under rated here.

When all said and done. If you stand out as top dog in any era then you stand out. McGrath was stand out in his era. Steyn was in his era. No other bowler had the same impact as them in the test format.
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walsh is better than waqar and honestly if it wasnt for his poor average vs aussies i would put him above steyn too.
 
kron said:
steyn's average in aus and engalnd and pakistan has been average. i did say steyn is better than waqar. just that steyn isnt as good as people make him out to be. he is a good tier below mcgrath, marshall, garner, ambrose, donald even.
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Did you watch what kind of wickets were served for those tours?

593/8d & 393/3d
419 & 419
522
375 & 414
394 & 454
637
...
...

To put it in context,

SA played 14 tests when Steyn played in Aus, Eng and Pak. SA batting line up averaged 44-45 as unit in those 14 tests. No visiting side scores 45 runs per wickets unless wickets are just dead intentionally by host. And on same surface, a visiting bowler averages 28-29 then it's actually very good.
 
accounting for flat pitches, i could see steyn getting the benefit of doubt.
could be right tbh.
 
Buffet said:
Did you watch what kind of wickets were served for those tours?

593/8d & 393/3d
419 & 419
522
375 & 414
394 & 454
637
...
...

To put it in context,

SA played 14 tests when Steyn played in Aus, Eng and Pak. SA batting line up averaged 44-45 as unit in those 14 tests. No visiting side score 45 runs per wickets unless wickets are just dead intentionally by host. And on same surface, a visiting bowler averages 28-29 then it's actually very good.
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thats true. thats why stats isnt everything otherwise philander would be better than wasim akram and imran.

i need to figure out a way to discount the flat pitches.
you do have a case here.

wondering if steyn could breach the first tier though. mcgrath, marshall a level above. no one comes close.
ambrose vs steyn would be interesting. pitches werent too flat when ambrose played. but i would still put him above. on song he was unplayable.

about 3 other west indian quicks are better than steyn

imran and wasim are above steyn.
imran was legendary. steyn's record by a little poor means he is not that effective on flat pitches
greatest bowlers can do well in any pitch.

mcgrath can do well even on flat pitches. this definitely goes against steyn.
 
Look at what cummins did on flat pitch vs india in 2021. averaged 22.

look at what bumrah did on flat wickets in india vs engalnd recently.

thats greatness.

steyn being ineffective on flat beds is his problem then. he is not as good as everyone thinks. he is very good but just below the absolute top tier.

he had a few spells in india with reverse but it wasnt quite flat. he dint do all that well in u.a.e.

neither did he do all that great in australia barring one series. even in england.

you need to perform in flat pitches too but he is definitely ahead of waqar.
 
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LOL This should not even be a comparison Steyn just blows Waqar away...


In

Test matches...
 
kron said:
thats true. thats why stats isnt everything otherwise philander would be better than wasim akram and imran.

i need to figure out a way to discount the flat pitches.
you do have a case here.

wondering if steyn could breach the first tier though. mcgrath, marshall a level above. no one comes close.
ambrose vs steyn would be interesting. pitches werent too flat when ambrose played. but i would still put him above. on song he was unplayable.

about 3 other west indian quicks are better than steyn

imran and wasim are above steyn.
imran was legendary. steyn's record by a little poor means he is not that effective on flat pitches
greatest bowlers can do well in any pitch.

mcgrath can do well even on flat pitches. this definitely goes against steyn.
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It's very simple. If you are stand out in your era then you are near the top in history. Being stand out means you are doing better than everyone else against similar oppositions and similar conditions across the world. That's a very easy criterion as compared to comparing stats. Otherwise we start getting argument like pitch was hard earlier eras so all batsmen were great and on the same pitch all bowlers were also great and so on. It does not make any sense.

Everyone will say that Steyn was stand out for 10 years or so in test. He was not a stand out in ODI.

Some thing special has to be there to stand out in your career against your peers for let's say 10 years. If you do that you are top tier batsman and bowler for me. This test never fails as long as we stick to professional era of cricket and not go back to armature era.

Stats eventually leads to similar conclusion, but you got to dig context. Problem comes, without stats we start getting comments like Shoaib is day light ahead of Bumrah. I mean, without stats, then it becomes random opinion having no basis. but if you have good career stats and stand out in professional era then you belong in top tier as bowler and batsman. This test holds true in every generation.
 
In test cricket, Marshall was topmost in his era. McGrath was top most in his era. Steyn was top most in his era. Bumrah is top most in his era. Clearly, they all belong in top tier in skills otherwise they wouldn't have stood out when compared to their peers.

Having said that we had many periods where many others were in top tier as well despite not standing out. But if you are standing out then it's enough for me. It passes the basic filter. It just has to be enough sample size and conditions. No one calls a player stand out unless they do it in different conditions and have enough sample size.
 
Buffet said:
In test cricket, Marshall was topmost in his era. McGrath was top most in his era. Steyn was top most in his era. Bumrah is top most in his era. Clearly, they all belong in top tier in skills otherwise they wouldn't have stood out when compared to their peers.

Having said that we had many periods where many others were in top tier as well despite not standing out. But if you are standing out then it's enough for me. It passes the basic filter. It just has to be enough sample size and conditions. No one calls a player stand out unless they do it in different conditions and have enough sample size.
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Both Ambrose and McGarth were equally great in Tests. Although I'm a bigger fan of McGrath.
 
Buffet said:
In test cricket, Marshall was topmost in his era. McGrath was top most in his era. Steyn was top most in his era. Bumrah is top most in his era. Clearly, they all belong in top tier in skills otherwise they wouldn't have stood out when compared to their peers.

Having said that we had many periods where many others were in top tier as well despite not standing out. But if you are standing out then it's enough for me. It passes the basic filter. It just has to be enough sample size and conditions. No one calls a player stand out unless they do it in different conditions and have enough sample size.
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Marshall and McGrath had tougher peers than Steyn and Bumrah.

Also, quality of batters started to decline after T20 happened. So, Bumrah had an advantage there (more technically inferior batters).
 
sweep_shot said:
Marshall and McGrath had tougher peers than Steyn and Bumrah.

Also, quality of batters started to decline after T20 happened. So, Bumrah had an advantage there (more technically inferior batters).
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Prove it.
 
sweep_shot said:
Check their peers (Marshall, McGrath, Steyn, and Bumrah).

Also, check the batters they bowled against.
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Smith( The best 3 test batsmen in Aus history)
Root ( Best test batsman for Eng in test in many decades)
Kane ( Best test batsman in NZ history)
Kohli ( Will go down as the top 2-3 batsmen in India history)
Warner ( Most dominant opener for Aus in home conditions)

How many great batsmen Marshall bowled? How many actual greats McGrath bowled?
Actual greats and not just names good to hear stories.

I think we all are bit biased towards whoever we saw while growing up and think that they were the best in everything. But in each era, you have huge number of players playing against each other. Stand out players in each era are special.
 
Hitman said:
Both Ambrose and McGarth were equally great in Tests. Although I'm a bigger fan of McGrath.
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Disagree, Ambrose was great but McGrath even better.

Curtly Ambrose took a third of his wickets against a very poor english batting line up and benefited a lot from the terrible Caribbean pitches.

He was untested in Asia, never toured India.

During the 2nd half of his career, his wicket taking ability declined when the West Indies needed it more than ever.

He only played 4 games against South Africa, the 2nd best team of his era.
 
Buffet said:
Smith( The best 3 test batsmen in Aus history)
Root ( Best test batsman for Eng in test in many decades)
Kane ( Best test batsman in NZ history)
Kohli ( Will go down as the top 2-3 batsmen in India history)
Warner ( Most dominant opener for Aus in home conditions)

How many great batsmen Marshall bowled? How many actual greats McGrath bowled?
Actual greats and not just names good to hear stories.

I think we all are bit biased towards whoever we saw while growing up and think that they were the best in everything. But in each era, you have huge number of players playing against each other. Stand out players in each era are special.
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Also, Bumrah bowled to the strongest Bangladeshi batting line-up which includes the likes of Tamim, Shakib, Mustafizur, Mahmudullah and Liton Das.
 
Steyn was special but his outswinger was better than his inswinger. He was managed astutely and did well across formats with his shrewd line/lengths.

Waqar was more versatile with his bowling skills, great outswinger and inswinger. Great old and new ball skills. Much better to watch in his peak.

Out the two I’d take Waqar, no disrespect to Steyn.

Waqar will probably be remembered a lot longer from a legacy POV

Both HOF’ers though, worthy members
 
shaz619 said:
Steyn was special but his outswinger was better than his inswinger. He was managed astutely and did well across formats with his shrewd line/lengths.

Waqar was more versatile with his bowling skills, great outswinger and inswinger. Great old and new ball skills. Much better to watch in his peak.

Out the two I’d take Waqar, no disrespect to Steyn.

Waqar will probably be remembered a lot longer from a legacy POV

Both HOF’ers though, worthy members
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Steyn has won his team series and matches in eng, aus and ind.
Waqar hasn't done anything comparable.

Steyn was a key part of the 3rd best team in cricket history.
 
shaz619 said:
Steyn was special but his outswinger was better than his inswinger. He was managed astutely and did well across formats with his shrewd line/lengths.

Waqar was more versatile with his bowling skills, great outswinger and inswinger. Great old and new ball skills. Much better to watch in his peak.

Out the two I’d take Waqar, no disrespect to Steyn.

Waqar will probably be remembered a lot longer from a legacy POV

Both HOF’ers though, worthy members
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Waqar Younis had very limited skills with the new ball. he was mostly an old ball operator. Thats why he struggled to take wickets upfront. Mostly cleaned up the tail with the old ball

I doubt most guys here even saw Waqar Younis bowl
 
Statpadder Inc said:
Steyn has won his team series and matches in eng, aus and ind.
Waqar hasn't done anything comparable.

Steyn was a key part of the 3rd best team in cricket history.
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Steyn never won a series in India. Drawn twice and hammered once.
 
shaz619 said:
Steyn was special but his outswinger was better than his inswinger. He was managed astutely and did well across formats with his shrewd line/lengths.

Waqar was more versatile with his bowling skills, great outswinger and inswinger. Great old and new ball skills. Much better to watch in his peak.

Out the two I’d take Waqar, no disrespect to Steyn.

Waqar will probably be remembered a lot longer from a legacy POV

Both HOF’ers though, worthy members
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Agree in odi no question Waqar hands down. In tests though? You genuinely believe Waqar was better than steyn? Numbers just don't add up.
 
kron said:
steyn's average in aus and engalnd and pakistan has been average. i did say steyn is better than waqar. just that steyn isnt as good as people make him out to be. he is a good tier below mcgrath, marshall, garner, ambrose, donald even.
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Imran averages 25.76 away from home. Everyone knows he was the beneficiary of ball tampering which means if you look at his away record, he was probably not at the top tier ATG level.

If we use away from home criteria, Imran and Steyn fall short of top tier ATG criteria. In my opinion, they both are but if you will say that Imran is top tier ATG but Steyn isn't , then its an absurd argument. Unlike Imran, Steyn bowled in an era where you just cannot get away with the ball tampering.

Also, most rate Imran higher than Waqar, Garner and Holding so just don't look at averages.
 
Ab Fan said:
Imran averages 25.76 away from home. Everyone knows he was the beneficiary of ball tampering which means if you look at his away record, he was probably not at the top tier ATG level.

If we use away from home criteria, Imran and Steyn fall short of top tier ATG criteria. In my opinion, they both are but if you will say that Imran is top tier ATG but Steyn isn't , then its an absurd argument. Unlike Imran, Steyn bowled in an era where you just cannot get away with the ball tampering.

Also, most rate Imran higher than Waqar, Garner and Holding so just don't look at averages.
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I never look at just averages otherwise guys like philander would be greater than the likes of wasim, Pollock, Gillespie and on par with donald
 
kron said:
I never look at just averages otherwise guys like philander would be greater than the likes of wasim, Pollock, Gillespie and on par with donald
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Philander's case is different. He was lethal in SENA but awful in Asia. With his pace and lack of reverse swing, he simply didn't had the skills to trouble any bowler in Asia. Neither did he sustained his ability for long period.
 
Steyn is my pick for the red ball cricket while Waqar is going to win the race in white ball format. Both of these bowlers had all the necessary weapons to succeed and they did succeed in their eras. Pace, swing, reverse swing, both had them.
 
2005-15 was the most batting friendly period in the history of cricket. Pitches were so flat that every team had 3-4 batsmen averaging 50+. So what Steyn did was much greater, some of the pitches he bowled in Australia were such graveyards that picking 10 wickets in an innings was almost impossible. Steyn helped his team win 2 series on those pitches. Also his remarkable show in India. Many of the 90s bowlers would be exposed badly on the pitches of 2005-15. Steyn wins this comfortably. I am sure he would average in single digits and strike every 4 overs had he played his cricket in late 80s and 90s.
 
Steyn hurt his numbers in eng/aus during his last tours when they dished out absolute roads to neutralize him, that's how scared they were of him.

Steyn has won his team matches in ind, eng, aus, nz, sl and wi.
One of the goats
 
Swashbuckler said:
2005-15 was the most batting friendly period in the history of cricket. Pitches were so flat that every team had 3-4 batsmen averaging 50+. So what Steyn did was much greater, some of the pitches he bowled in Australia were such graveyards that picking 10 wickets in an innings was almost impossible. Steyn helped his team win 2 series on those pitches. Also his remarkable show in India. Many of the 90s bowlers would be exposed badly on the pitches of 2005-15. Steyn wins this comfortably. I am sure he would average in single digits and strike every 4 overs had he played his cricket in late 80s and 90s.
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23 batsmen averaged 45 in 2005-2015 vs 7 averaging 45 in the 90s. So more than 3 times.

That period allowed all kinds of batsmen to boost their stats due to super-dead pitches in many venues.

Flat pitch.png




90spitch.png
 
Swashbuckler said:
2005-15 was the most batting friendly period in the history of cricket. Pitches were so flat that every team had 3-4 batsmen averaging 50+. So what Steyn did was much greater, some of the pitches he bowled in Australia were such graveyards that picking 10 wickets in an innings was almost impossible. Steyn helped his team win 2 series on those pitches. Also his remarkable show in India. Many of the 90s bowlers would be exposed badly on the pitches of 2005-15. Steyn wins this comfortably. I am sure he would average in single digits and strike every 4 overs had he played his cricket in late 80s and 90s.
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All that means is he was nothing special on flatter surfaces. And it shows.

He is a good tier below the true best bowlers like mcg, Marshall, hadlee, Garner and a few others. Ambrose did benefit from a more bowler friendly era and dint tour Asia as much as he was supposed to. Still he played vs a much stronger Aussie side and did well.
 
kron said:
All that means is he was nothing special on flatter surfaces. And it shows.

He is a good tier below the true best bowlers like mcg, Marshall, hadlee, Garner and a few others. Ambrose did benefit from a more bowler friendly era and dint tour Asia as much as he was supposed to. Still he played vs a much stronger Aussie side and did well.
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He won tests on flat pitches in India, Australia, Pakistan, England. He is the greatest ever on flat pitches.
 
Buffet said:
Steyn ran riots with reverse in his era. Imagine what he could have done with the ball which Waqar used.
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Funny to see Indian fans downplaying Steyn after what he did to the Fab 4 heroes in Nagpur and Ahmedabad. And how he made a fool out of Rohit Sharma. Come to India he said and commentators made fun of Rohit showing what Steyn had done in India lol. Personally I loved how Steyn humiliated the overrated Dravid every single time, both home and away.
 
Buffet said:
Steyn ran riots with reverse in his era. Imagine what he could have done with the ball which Waqar used.
Click to expand...
Had he played in 90s, he would have picked 500 test wickets at an average of 17 or 18. He was that good.
 
Swashbuckler said:
Funny to see Indian fans downplaying Steyn after what he did to the Fab 4 heroes in Nagpur and Ahmedabad. And how he made a fool out of Rohit Sharma. Come to India he said and commentators made fun of Rohit showing what Steyn had done in India lol. Personally I loved how Steyn humiliated the overrated Dravid every single time, both home and away.
Click to expand...
I don't think any indians fans are making fun of Steyn, it's the Pakistani fans downplaying him and indians supporting him.

Steyn absolutely humbled dravid like most atg bowlers, but indians casuals on social media will still call him better than sachin lol.
 
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kron said:
He was outbowled by Mitch Johnson and even broad on flatter decks in a h2h battle.
Click to expand...

2012 SA vs England:-

Steyn 14 wickets, Avg 29
Broad 11 wickets, Avg 39
Anderson 9 wickets, Avg 40

This was South Africa in England 2012.
 
kron said:
Agree in odi no question Waqar hands down. In tests though? You genuinely believe Waqar was better than steyn? Numbers just don't add up.
Click to expand...

I agree the numbers may not, but Waqar passes the eye test, and in peak form I’d prefer him due to his versatility. I think he’d have a better overall career then Steyn had he played against the same quality of opposition; I think with the modern evolution of Batting, technique’s against spin and lateral movement have deteriorated, but ignoring that I just prefer Waqar on paper, if I was captain I’d pick him and throw the dice
 
NishanKonar said:
Waqar Younis had very limited skills with the new ball. he was mostly an old ball operator. Thats why he struggled to take wickets upfront. Mostly cleaned up the tail with the old ball

I doubt most guys here even saw Waqar Younis bowl
Click to expand...

When be lost a yard of pace he worked a bit more on his new ball skills and improved them later in his career, yeah I doubt people watched him during the back end or his stints in county
 
Statpadder Inc said:
Steyn has won his team series and matches in eng, aus and ind.
Waqar hasn't done anything comparable.

Steyn was a key part of the 3rd best team in cricket history.
Click to expand...

Yeah he had a successful career, Waqar the individual performer has a legendary hall of fame legacy.

Yeah it was a blessing to play with such a strong / professional SA side
 
Ab Fan said:
Everywhere. Steyn owned every cricketer in the world from his era. Mitchell is a joke of cricketer infront of him.
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Yet record away from home says otherwise. And no mitch outbowled him in SA on flat pitches actually. Destroyed SA.

In 2015 steyn wasn't the best bowler either vs england

Only time he did well was in 07 and 12 when they won.
 
kron said:
Yet record away from home says otherwise. And no mitch outbowled him in SA on flat pitches actually. Destroyed SA.
Click to expand...

That was just one series and it wasn't a flat pitch. It had enough grass for the pacers. Mitchell had only one great season otherwise he was never fit enough to tie the shoelace of Steyn.

What is Steyn's record away from home? 24 avg. That's greater than the second best overall bowling average of that era, Anderson (26). Destroyed and all that lol, seems you have misread 34 somewhere instead of 24?
 
Steyn was the model example of how a premium fast bowler should be managed with the workload today. I think India have taken note of that with Bumrah, I suppose you’re more inclined to be in a position to do they when you can pay the players properly but it’s still not easy to rotate a bowler from the subcontinent who is typically expected to play every game
 
I remember that that famous tour of 2008-09, SA's first series win vs Australia since 1995 and it was an away win:-

1st test - Johnson got the bowl to reverse and picked his career best 8-fer to reduce South Africa to 280.

AB de Villiers scored runs in both innings and chased down 400 with a superb 100.

2nd test - Dale Steyn ripped through the Aus lineup with 5-fers in both innings and JP Duminy followed up with a masterclass hundred.

South Africa won that series by winning the first two test in a ruthless manner and that series was the coming of age for Dale Steyn, AB de Villiers and JP Duminy. Johnson picked 17 wickets which was an impressive performance but Steyn still ended with 18 wickets.
 
Ab Fan said:
I remember that that famous tour of 2008-09, SA's first series win vs Australia since 1995 and it was an away win:-

1st test - Johnson got the bowl to reverse and picked his career best 8-fer to reduce South Africa to 280.

AB de Villiers scored runs in both innings and chased down 400 with a superb 100.

2nd test - Dale Steyn ripped through the Aus lineup with 5-fers in both innings and JP Duminy followed up with a masterclass hundred.

South Africa won that series by winning the first two test in a ruthless manner and that series was the coming of age for Dale Steyn, AB de Villiers and JP Duminy. Johnson picked 17 wickets which was an impressive performance but Steyn still ended with 18 wickets.
Click to expand...

One of the best series in the past 20 years.

I rate it as second best (right after 2005 Ashes).

Steyn was at his peak then.
 
Ab Fan said:
That was just one series and it wasn't a flat pitch. It had enough grass for the pacers. Mitchell had only one great season otherwise he was never fit enough to tie the shoelace of Steyn.

What is Steyn's record away from home? 24 avg. That's greater than the second best overall bowling average of that era, Anderson (26). Destroyed and all that lol, seems you have misread 34 somewhere instead of 24?
Click to expand...
Away record is still nothing special. As mentioned in the first post. Its 27.14

That's not absolute top tier.

He also played for the team with the best batting in his prime.

He is clearly a touch under mcgrath, Marshall, Garner, hadlee imran etc.

There were tests where broad outbowled him.

And those pitches were fairly flat. It's a standard south african pitch with bounce. Mitch just destroyed them. They lost 2-1 to Aussies. They couldn't play him. That was during steyns so called peak. Got outbowled by mitch. Mitch sent shivers down the spine of all saffer batsmen in that series. He also wrecked them in Australia but saffer batting was too good and handled all the other bowlers barring Johnson.
 
Ab Fan said:
I remember that that famous tour of 2008-09, SA's first series win vs Australia since 1995 and it was an away win:-

1st test - Johnson got the bowl to reverse and picked his career best 8-fer to reduce South Africa to 280.

AB de Villiers scored runs in both innings and chased down 400 with a superb 100.

2nd test - Dale Steyn ripped through the Aus lineup with 5-fers in both innings and JP Duminy followed up with a masterclass hundred.

South Africa won that series by winning the first two test in a ruthless manner and that series was the coming of age for Dale Steyn, AB de Villiers and JP Duminy. Johnson picked 17 wickets which was an impressive performance but Steyn still ended with 18 wickets.
Click to expand...
That series had Bollinger hauritz, old Brett Lee, old Hayden, McDonald, siddle

Steyn had a top team for support.

Johnson actually still played really well in that series. He had no support. He bowled better than steyn in the first game and the second one steyn did the damage.
 
kron said:
That series had Bollinger hauritz, old Brett Lee, old Hayden, McDonald, siddle

Steyn had a top team for support.

Johnson actually still played really well in that series. He had no support. He bowled better than steyn in the first game and the second one steyn did the damage.
Click to expand...

Well, Johnson is not some McGrath himself. Every bowler is capable of producing a good spell on their day, the great ones are those who do it day in and day out and everywhere.

Johnson did it in Australia and South Africa due to bouncy nature of pitches. He did minimal outside that. Steyn and Anderson did it everywhere.
 
Waqar was more destructive at his best.

Steyn the more rounded bowler.
 
Steyn's peak coincided with some of the flattest pitches ever seen in India, Australia, UAE and even England.

Got to look at those numbers in context.

Steyn was comfortably the best Test bowler in the world between 2007-2015 .


Thats a long period of time in Test cricket.
 
Waqar was phenomenal in his peak years. I think he should have retired by 1999.
 
Nikhil_cric said:
Steyn was comfortably the best Test bowler in the world between 2007-2015 .
Click to expand...
yes you are right. He was a beast during that tenure and was number 1 bowler most of the time in test cricket as well. No doubts about his abilities but Waqar is not far from him in test games as well. The WHite ball goes to Waqar, test goes to Steyn.
 
Swashbuckler said:
Funny to see Indian fans downplaying Steyn after what he did to the Fab 4 heroes in Nagpur and Ahmedabad. And how he made a fool out of Rohit Sharma. Come to India he said and commentators made fun of Rohit showing what Steyn had done in India lol. Personally I loved how Steyn humiliated the overrated Dravid every single time, both home and away.
Click to expand...
No Indian ever makes fun of Dale Steyn. He is one of most popular overseas cricketer in India - like Pat Cummins
 
Cricket Warrior said:
how is way ahead? have u seen the stats?

View attachment 142119

View attachment 142120
Click to expand...

I think many don't put Steyn and Waqar in same bracket because Waqar was not effective against the top sides during his playing days. It was mainly due to Waqar being useless with a new ball.

Against the 4 strongest oppositions in Steyn's Era( Aus, Ind, Eng , NZ) : Steyn has 15 5-fers with Avg of 23
Against the 4 strongest oppositions in Waqar's Era( WI, Aus, SA, Ind) : Waqar has 4 5-fers with avg of 28

Waqar played only 36 games against the top 4 sides while Steyn played 53 games against the top 4 sides.

How many great test bowlers we have seen with a grand total of 4 5-fers in their entire career against the top 4 sides taken together? I don't think any great bowler in history has that poor record against the top sides. So simply looking at the career average is misleading when it comes to Waqar. Waqar is surely not in the same bracket as Steyn.

Now when it comes to bullying weaker sides, Waqar was right up there with the best.
 
If anyone still thinks that Steyn was not several brackets above Waqar then,

Steyn has 13 5-fers in wins agasint the top 4 oppositions.

Waqar has 1 5-fer in a win against the top 4 oppositions.

Simply said, Waqar was impactless against the top sides. Waqar picking only 1 5-fer in a win against top opposition is not due to Pakistan being weak and SA being strong. Pakistan had a very strong side in the early 90s.

Among all ATG bowlers, I will put Waqar near the bottom. Some don't consider him an ATG and the reason is him being useless against good sides. Now Steyn's situation was the polar opposite. He was gun against the top sides of his playing days.

So all this talk about Waqar's peak, Waqar had 1 5-fer in a win against the top 4 sides in 14-15 years.


Steyn's 5-fers against the top 4 sides in a win.

SteynWon.png




Waqar's 5-fers against the top 4 sides in a win.

WaqarWon.png
 
Buffet said:
If anyone still thinks that Steyn was not several brackets above Waqar then,

Steyn has 13 5-fers in wins agasint the top 4 oppositions.

Waqar has 1 5-fer in a win against the top 4 oppositions.

Simply said, Waqar was impactless against the top sides. Waqar picking only 1 5-fer in a win against top opposition is not due to Pakistan being weak and SA being strong. Pakistan had a very strong side in the early 90s.

Among all ATG bowlers, I will put Waqar near the bottom. Some don't consider him an ATG and the reason is him being useless against good sides. Now Steyn's situation was the polar opposite. He was gun against the top sides of his playing days.

So all this talk about Waqar's peak, Waqar had 1 5-fer in a win against the top 4 sides in 14-15 years.


Steyn's 5-fers against the top 4 sides in a win.

View attachment 142123




Waqar's 5-fers against the top 4 sides in a win.

View attachment 142124
Click to expand...

Bro only 5-ers cannot define the legacy of a bowler... there are many other factors too in which Waqar is neck to neck with Steyn.
 
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