Dalits seek escape from Indian caste system

[soton]

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[akheR]

Aren't Muslims treated worse than Dalits generally-speaking ?

 

[Smiling Creed]

Oh yeah....Dalit's and Muslims are prosecuted daily in thousands all over India. Worst part is they are discriminated every day, they are not allowed to move freely on roads and have to wear a badge which shows if the person is dalit or muslim. Mass murders are common all over India and press/judiciary which are owned by Hindu's all keep quiet.

Really sad situation....It is like living in hell.

Happy....now get back to work.

 

[soton]

Aren't Muslims treated worse than Dalits generally-speaking ?

Unfortunately it is true as per the report approved by government of India .But some jerks on PP think its an exaggeration .Your guess is as good as mine which is more trust worthy source.

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[mithun_minhas]

Dalits can convert to anything they want.

The only thing to think is, if they get enough respect after converting to other religions.

There are already churches in India that are only for forward caste Christians.

Will a Muslim from Kashmir want to marry a dalit muslim from Tamilnadu? Will he invite that Dalit to his house?

Its easy to say that Dalit gets respect after converting to other religions. But the reality will be different. What needs to change is the mindset of the people. Until that happens, no matter what religion the Dalit follows, he/she will be treated as an untouchable only.

The problem with untouchability stems from racial issues. Eventhough some times it gets difficult to separate some Dalits from Upper Caste people due to intermixing over several centuries, you can clearly identify if someone belongs to a Dalit community most of the times. You don't even need to know their last name. They get bad treatment just by the way they look.

IMO, the treatment meted out to Dalits was racism when it started out several centuries ago. Due to intermixing, the modern day Dalits get bad treatment due to the stigma of them being from primitive tribal groups in India. Its not racist. But just castist.

 

[mithun_minhas]

Oh yeah....Dalit's and Muslims are prosecuted daily in thousands all over India. Worst part is they are discriminated every day, they are not allowed to move freely on roads and have to wear a badge which shows if the person is dalit or muslim. Mass murders are common all over India and press/judiciary which are owned by Hindu's all keep quiet.

Really sad situation....It is like living in hell.

Happy....now get back to work.

I see Dalits and Muslims getting butchered every day. You are right. Life is total hell for them.

Recently the Govt of India started issuing badges to them so that they can identify themselves as Dalits.

Upper Caste have all the reservations and they get special treatment. An Upper Caste fellow can get a seat in college even if he only scored 30% in the entrance test. Dalits have to score over 90% everytime just to see the college.....


Oh Wait!!!!!!!!

 

[Ambi]

She is a rich lady now so she don't want to known as a dalit.The gentleman said dalit still need reservation and positive thing from that interview is distance between poor and rich is becoming less.why AJ is blocking her hindi conservation with english.

 

[Singham]

This idiot is posting as if no caste system exists in Muslims in India. Just quoting from wikipedia:


Like castes elsewhere in Islamic world, Muslims in India have a caste system. Ashrafs are presumed to have a superior status,[92][93] while the Ajlafs have a lower status. The Arzal caste among Muslims was regarded as the equivalent of untouchables, by anti-caste activists like Ambedkar, and by the colonial British ethnographer Herbert Risley who claimed that 56 percent of Muslims in British India were of a caste equivalent in status as the Hindu Shudras and Untouchables.[94][95][96] In the Bengal region of India, some Muslims stratify their society according to 'Quoms.'[97] Some scholars have asserted that the Muslim "castes" are not as acute in their discrimination as those of the Hindus,[98] while other scholars argue that the social evils in South Asian Muslim society were worse than those seen in Hindu society.[94][96]



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_in_India#Muslims

 

[velu]

Unfortunately Dalits are mistreated but their situation is improving in cities/towns.
But conversion to other religion is never going to solve their problem bcoz they are discriminated in other religions too.

IIRC Caste system still exist among forward tamil christains who marry only in their caste.
massive lol dedicated to soton for claiming muslims are treated worse than dalits.

Anyway i am against the reservations based on caste.

 

[mithun_minhas]

This idiot is posting as if no caste system exists in Muslims in India. Just quoting from wikipedia:


Like castes elsewhere in Islamic world, Muslims in India have a caste system. Ashrafs are presumed to have a superior status,[92][93] while the Ajlafs have a lower status. The Arzal caste among Muslims was regarded as the equivalent of untouchables, by anti-caste activists like Ambedkar, and by the colonial British ethnographer Herbert Risley who claimed that 56 percent of Muslims in British India were of a caste equivalent in status as the Hindu Shudras and Untouchables.[94][95][96] In the Bengal region of India, some Muslims stratify their society according to 'Quoms.'[97] Some scholars have asserted that the Muslim "castes" are not as acute in their discrimination as those of the Hindus,[98] while other scholars argue that the social evils in South Asian Muslim society were worse than those seen in Hindu society.[94][96]



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_in_India#Muslims

Ashraf's are supposed to be the descendents of Arabs/Persians who settled in India.
Ajlaf's are the non-Arab/Persian converts.
Arzal's are the Dalits.

That is why in my previous posts I said that just because you cange religion, you cannot get the dalit stigma taken out.

There were a ton of christian dalit friends during Engineering days. They still complained a lot about being Dalit, the treatment they get and how they are different from uppercaste people.

 

[Namak_Halaal]

Dalits can convert to anything they want.

Gold!

So Dalits should convert if they wish to be accepted in India’s caste system rather than India's secular constitution accepts them for who they are.

Brilliant.

Booming economy, booming intelligence, booming myth.

 

[akheR]

In Pakistan, only in rural Sindh and southern Punjab there are substantial numbers of Dalits, and they're indeed not treated with due respect, but, for them, upward social mobility is possible, they can eat roti with a chaudhry and pray next to a wadhera, in the same mosque, to the same God.
Of course inter-caste marriages is frowned upon by the most conservative parties, but even a Raja can't marry a Jatt without problems, etc
It's not as static as amongst Hindus.

 

[insaan]

Unfortunately it is true as per the report approved by government of India .But some jerks on PP think its an exaggeration .Your guess is as good as mine which is more trust worthy source.

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You are wrong my friend. Dalits are the worse off in India.

Not that Muslims are in great condition, but in relative terms yes.

 

[insaan]

Dalits are outside the Hindu caste system. They are the outcastes, the untouchables. Untouchability is a crime in India now, but still practiced in some pockets of India.

There is a lot of bias against Dalits. Remember there was a movie by Madhuri Dixit, Aaja Nachle. One of its song had a line, which said bole mochi bhi khud ko sonar hai. Meaning, now even the cobblers are calling themselves Goldsmiths. And that song was written by GULZAR.

 

[velu]

Its no brainer to conclude why dalits are sitting outsisde the hindu caste system.

Most probably Dalits are the native people of the land who settled in the subcontinet well before the current population of india migrated.
When the people who followed vedic religion later migrated, they kept dalits outside their religion because of their mutually exclusive customs and it continues till this day.

 

[mithun_minhas]

Gold!

So Dalits should convert if they wish to be accepted in India’s caste system rather than India's secular constitution accepts them for who they are.

Brilliant.

Booming economy, booming intelligence, booming myth.

Can we say premature ******** )

I just said if Dalits seek to escape the shackles of oppression, they are free to convert to anything they want. Thats all I said.

Things have certainly changed for a lot of Dalits. But there is still oppression going on in remote villages. Hence I said they can convert.

You are a dumbo if you think Dalits are not accepted by Indian constitution. It is written by a Dalit

Its not the constitution or the Govt that oppresses Dalits. Its the people that oppress them.

 

[insaan]

Dalits have been oppressed since centuries. First it was by Hindus which is coming down thanks to the constitution and Dalits becoming aware, but it still exists.

Then even the Sufis excluded them. The Sufi saints converted many to Islam, most were OBCs ( other backward castes ) and some upper castes, but not dalits.

It is the Chistian missionaries which tried to convert them to Christianity. And then Hindus had a problem. If they were really concerned about Dalits, they would have given them equal rights.

I am still surprised that Dalits identified as Hindus since so long, when they were not allowed to enter temples.

Thanks to Ambedkar, Dalits got their rights.

 

[mithun_minhas]

Its no brainer to conclude why dalits are sitting outsisde the hindu caste system.

Most probably Dalits are the native people of the land who settled in the subcontinet well before the current population of india migrated.
When the people who followed vedic religion later migrated, they kept dalits outside their religion because of their mutually exclusive customs and it continues till this day.

Very well said.

Most Dalits are the original inhabitants of subcontinent.

As Vedic religion settlers started pouring into the land, they were pushed to deeper parts of India.

It does not need any research to tell that the Vedic religion followers and the Dalits are different people. Just by looking at them, you can tell them apart most of the times.

Dalits had their own Gods and their own rituals. Eventhough they slowly started following Hindu Gods later on, many of them till today have their own tribal Gods, rituals.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adivasi

 

[Namak_Halaal]

I just said if Dalits seek to escape the shackles of oppression, they are free to convert to anything they want. Thats all I said.

Read what you are saying.

Why should Dalits have to convert to anything to escape the shackles of oppression?

Dalits shouldn't have to convert - that was my point. Why are Dalits not accepted for who they are in the world’s biggest secular democracy?

Forcing a group of people to change their belief for the purpose of acceptance?

You make me sick.

 

[mithun_minhas]

Read what you are saying.

Why should Dalits have to convert to anything to escape the shackles of oppression?

Dalits shouldn't have to convert - that was my point. Why are Dalits not accepted for who they are in the world’s biggest secular democracy?

Forcing a group of people to change their belief for the purpose of acceptance?

You make me sick.

Nobody is forcing them to change their beliefs or rituals. They are doing it out of their own will. No Hindu is forcing them to convert to Christianity or Buddhism.

Dalits were never part of Hindu religion. They are outcastes and the aboriginal people of India. They had their own Gods and Goddesses. Hence they were kept away from the Caste followers of Hindu religion.

Things changed a lot in recent times. Many Dalits convert because of their hatred towards Hindu religion. Even though the present day Dalits are free to enter temples, they were badly oppressed in the past. You cannot erase history that easily.

Govt and constitution do not discriminate them. They enjoy the best perks that any community in any country can ever think of. But the discrimination still happens in remote pockets of India.

Its the attitude of the people that has to change. if a Dalit doesn't want to be treated like a Dalit by some Caste people, then he is free to change his religion or beliefs. That is what Ambedkar said and millions of Dalits embraced Buddhism.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Any Dalits posting on here or reading this? If so please write a post of your experiences.

 

[mithun_minhas]

Read what you are saying.

Why should Dalits have to convert to anything to escape the shackles of oppression?

Dalits shouldn't have to convert - that was my point. Why are Dalits not accepted for who they are in the world’s biggest secular democracy?

Forcing a group of people to change their belief for the purpose of acceptance?

You make me sick.

Bla Bla Bla........ again!!!!!!

You do not understand what it means being a Dalit. I have seen them right from my childhood. They are an oppressed lot and are usually very poor.

I am not sayign that they need to convert to get accepted by Hindus.

Dalits do it voluntarily as they want to be part of a religion that do not discrminate based on caste. They think that if they convert, they will not be Dalits anymore. But it is not true.

Again, Forcing a Group of People???? Who is forcing them? RSS or VHP? )

 

[Namak_Halaal]

I am not sayign that they need to convert to get accepted by Hindus.

Horse pukky - that's precisely what you are saying.

 

[insaan]

Any Dalits posting on here or reading this? If so please write a post of your experiences.

High hopes! I highly doubt if there will be any Dalits following PakPassion.

I can share my experiences though. As an Upper Caste Hindu, I have seen them through the other side of the fence.

After government quotas, some Dalits have got important positions. People from my community often say, that once upon a time we used to rule, and now because of democracy, now these Dalits are ruling.

In my college elections, one candidate was popular and was a Dalit. It was the first year and not many knew that he was a Dalit. So his opponents went on spreading it, and asked people are you going to vote for a Dalit. His opponents happened to be Brahmins. Eventually, that guy lost.

This sign of shift of power hasn't gone down well with the upper castes. Although the upper castes still pull most of the strings.

 

[mithun_minhas]

Horse pukky - that's precisely what you are saying.

LOL!!!!

Look at these videos. No Hindu forces any Dalit to convert. Dalits themselves do it as they were never considered equals by Caste Hindus.
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[Singham]

Horse pukky - that's precisely what you are saying.

Why should they seek permission from Hindus to get accepted? Who are hindus to accept them? lol.

 

[Namak_Halaal]

LOL!!!!

Look at these videos. No Hindu forces any Dalit to convert. Dalits themselves do it as they were never considered equals by Caste Hindus.

The fact you even suggested Dalits should convert for the sake of acceptance says a lot about the secular mentality in India.

 

[insaan]

Bla Bla Bla........ again!!!!!!

You do not understand what it means being a Dalit. I have seen them right from my childhood. They are an oppressed lot and are usually very poor.

I am not sayign that they need to convert to get accepted by Hindus.

Dalits do it voluntarily as they want to be part of a religion that do not discrminate based on caste. They think that if they convert, they will not be Dalits anymore. But it is not true.

Again, Forcing a Group of People???? Who is forcing them? RSS or VHP? )

Wrong. Dalits proudly claim that they are dalits. They know being a Dalit is their identity. It gives them a way to organize themselves. And with that they have achieves political success. Mayawati became a CM on Dalit votes.

Dalit want their rights, but they dont want to be known as anything but Dalits. Dalit is the term which really captures their identity, and their oppression over centuries. Dalit literally means the opressed.

Mahatma Gandhi gave a new term to Dalits, calling them Harijans, meaning Children of God. Dalits rejected that term as it was patronizing in nature.

They might convert to any religion, but they want to be known as Dalits.

 

[insaan]

Our Indian Media is heavily biased against Dalits. I have a friend who is a senior journalist and he told me that if he gives a very moderate estimate, then 98% in journalism are upper castes. I checked and found him to be right.

There are so many examples of statues being built for everyone. In Mumbai, they are going to build a giant statue of Shivaji. There are thousands of statue of Gandhi Nehru family. But when Mayawati build statues symbolizing Dalit pride, then the media had a problem. They started talking about the waste of money, but were silent when other parties did that.

 

[Garuda]

^^
Are you supporting statues or trying to say statues of Gandhi and nehru is same as statues of Elephants all over UP ?

And you are wrong when you say upper caste do not support dalits. They do not support reservations.

I do not care who is a dalit or uppercaste. But when I get discriminated showing a reason that upper caste did something generation back, I will oppose that move. What have I done ?

By that resevation policy aren't they actually making the divide more ?

Secondly, has reservation helped anything for dalits? Except the creamy layer of dalits?


So, as a upper caste, I am not against dalits but against reservations based on caste system.

 

[insaan]

Not so old news.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/states/tamil-nadu/article80946.ece

A 24-year-old Dalit youth was allegedly made to eat human excreta at Melakoilpatti village coming under Nilakottai circle and Batlagundu police station limits in Dindigul district.

P. Sadaiyandi, in his complaint to the police, has said that on January 7 a group of Thevar Christian youth stopped him near the village salon and abused him by his caste name for daring to defy the ban on Dalits wearing footwear in the streets where upper castes live.

 

[insaan]

^^
Are you supporting statues or trying to say statues of Gandhi and nehru is same as statues of Elephants all over UP ?

I am against the double standards. Forget Gandhiji. There are so many statues of Nehru, Rajiv and Indira. And a huge statues being planned for Shivaji. I don't see media highlighting the wastage of funds then.

But when it comes to Mayawati, they are up in arms against her. Of course, she can use funds for better use, but that is not my point.

 

[insaan]

^^
Are you supporting statues or trying to say statues of Gandhi and nehru is same as statues of Elephants all over UP ?

And you are wrong when you say upper caste do not support dalits. They do not support reservations.

I do not care who is a dalit or uppercaste. But when I get discriminated showing a reason that upper caste did something generation back, I will oppose that move. What have I done ?

By that resevation policy aren't they actually making the divide more ?

Secondly, has reservation helped anything for dalits? Except the creamy layer of dalits?


So, as a upper caste, I am not against dalits but against reservations based on caste system.

Reservations are necessary to correct historical wrongs. One cannot ignore centuries of discrimination. It is for those historical wrongs, you and I are paying when it becomes difficult to get admission or govt jobs.

At an individual level it may be wrong for some, and I know of poor upper castes who could not get admission, and some well off dalits who used it, but such cases are few.

If not reservation, then suggest alternative for the upliftment of the backward classes.

It is another thing that reservation is not implemented properly. The creamy layer should not get benefits at the cost of the real needy dalits.

But I am pro reservation.

 

[insaan]

The real reason most upper castes are against reservation is because they dont want to lose power. How come Brahmins which might be around 4% of population, have dominated the politics. With so many CMs and PMs from the Brahmin community. How come most of media is upper caste.

Even with reservations, Dalits have yet to rise to the level where it becomes a level playing field. It will take time, but I hope it happens sooner.

 

[mithun_minhas]

Reservations are necessary to correct historical wrongs. One cannot ignore centuries of discrimination. It is for those historical wrongs, you and I are paying when it becomes difficult to get admission or govt jobs.

At an individual level it may be wrong for some, and I know of poor upper castes who could not get admission, and some well off dalits who used it, but such cases are few.

If not reservation, then suggest alternative for the upliftment of the backward classes.

It is another thing that reservation is not implemented properly. The creamy layer should not get benefits at the cost of the real needy dalits.

But I am pro reservation.

I support reservations for Dalits. But not for the ones who already benefited from it. But for those who never received any benefit.

I have a friend who is filthy rich and he is a Dalit. His dad is a business person. This guy just used to come to our Engineering College on his Hero Honda bike and left when ever he chose to. The guy has been in that college for ever 6yrs. Never passed his 2nd year. He gets free tuition, 1000rs Pocket money to attend the college.

Its a mockery of the reservations when the benefits are given to the rich Dalits.

If anything, I support reservations based on economic status. People below Poverty line has to be given reservation irrespective of their caste.

Vote bank politics will never let that happen. Govt is happy to promote mediocrity and laziness.

 

[mithun_minhas]

The real reason most upper castes are against reservation is because they dont want to lose power. How come Brahmins which might be around 4% of population, have dominated the politics. With so many CMs and PMs from the Brahmin community. How come most of media is upper caste.

Even with reservations, Dalits have yet to rise to the level where it becomes a level playing field. It will take time, but I hope it happens sooner.

Brahmin CM's are a thing of the past. They were there at the time of independence as they were the educated people. Dalits were totally illiterate back then.

Show me one Brahmin CM right now? Sheila Dixit? Who else?

Most CM's now are either OBC's or rich landlord caste people.

I do agree that there are tons of Brahmins in the administrative side of Govt like IAS, IPS and other Management positions etc. But they worked hard to get those positions inspite of the reservations.

 

[KingKhanWC]

High hopes! I highly doubt if there will be any Dalits following PakPassion.

I can share my experiences though. As an Upper Caste Hindu, I have seen them through the other side of the fence.

After government quotas, some Dalits have got important positions. People from my community often say, that once upon a time we used to rule, and now because of democracy, now these Dalits are ruling.

In my college elections, one candidate was popular and was a Dalit. It was the first year and not many knew that he was a Dalit. So his opponents went on spreading it, and asked people are you going to vote for a Dalit. His opponents happened to be Brahmins. Eventually, that guy lost.

This sign of shift of power hasn't gone down well with the upper castes. Although the upper castes still pull most of the strings.

You never know some Dalits may have converted to Islam and are now fans of the Pakistan cricket team.

Can you provide some statistics, percentages of who many hold high positions compared to those who are still treated as untouchables?

Also why in Hinduism is this caste system prevalent? Is there scripture to back this up?

 

[insaan]

I support reservations for Dalits. But not for the ones who already benefited from it. But for those who never received any benefit.

I have a friend who is filthy rich and he is a Dalit. His dad is a business person. This guy just used to come to our Engineering College on his Hero Honda bike and left when ever he chose to. The guy has been in that college for ever 6yrs. Never passed his 2nd year.

Its a mockery of the reservations when the benefits are given to the rich Dalits.

If anything, I support reservations based on economic status. People below Poverty line has to be given reservation irrespective of their caste.

Vote bank politics will never let that happen. Govt is happy to promote mediocrity and laziness.

I know of such cases too. In college we had a guy who was very rich, from a scheduled caste, and had tuition waiver plus extra scholarship. Seeing this it was natural for us to feel hard done by, who had taken loans for our studies.

But I also found genuince cases where dalits from extremely poor families had got the benefits. Without reservation, their family would still be in poverty.

Even though I was not rich, but being an upper caste, I didnt have to face the insults that Dalits have to face. I was never stopped from entering a temple, or from sharing a table. I didnt have any mental scars. The same cannot be said about the dalits.

So we have to know dalits to know what they have faced. Not only poverty, but also insults.

Reservation has its flaws, but what is the better alternative.

I do believe that creamy layer must be excluded so that needy dalits get the benefits.

 

[insaan]

You never know some Dalits may have converted to Islam and are now fans of the Pakistan cricket team.

Can you provide some statistics, percentages of who many hold high positions compared to those who are still treated as untouchables?

Also why in Hinduism is this caste system prevalent? Is there scripture to back this up?

I have some stats, which I will provide soon. Since I am new to this forum business, I don't keep stats handy. But I have followed them with keen interest, and should be able to provide.

But the real stats that I am waiting for is the Indian census 2011. It was the first time caste was included in the census.

As far as I know. And I will talk of only what I know. There was a scripture called Manu Smriti. It had many rules against Dalits. It even said that it is the right of a Brahmin to take away the property of a Dalit.

Dalits hate that scripture. Anyway, it is not a holy book or the word of God ( as considered by the Hindus ), but it was used by the upper castes to justify atrocities against dalits.

There is a famous line in that book. Shudra, pashu, aur naari, yeh hai taadan ke adhikari. It means a Shudra, an animal and a woman are fit to be beaten. I know this verse, because I am an upper caste too, and people around me will often talk about it.

However, if you see in Ramayana, Lord Ram had taken the services of the untouchables and even ate from their plate. But sadly, that didnt stop many upper castes from practicing untouchability.

 

[mithun_minhas]

I know of such cases too. In college we had a guy who was very rich, from a scheduled caste, and had tuition waiver plus extra scholarship. Seeing this it was natural for us to feel hard done by, who had taken loans for our studies.

But I also found genuince cases where dalits from extremely poor families had got the benefits. Without reservation, their family would still be in poverty.

Even though I was not rich, but being an upper caste, I didnt have to face the insults that Dalits have to face. I was never stopped from entering a temple, or from sharing a table. I didnt have any mental scars. The same cannot be said about the dalits.

So we have to know dalits to know what they have faced. Not only poverty, but also insults.

Reservation has its flaws, but what is the better alternative.

I do believe that creamy layer must be excluded so that needy dalits get the benefits.

Govt should provide free education, meals for Dalit students to get educated. Not free jobs.

If Govt is giving free jobs, it means that the Govt wants Dalits to believe that they cannot get the job without reservation.

Provide free education and make them fit to take entrance exam with the rest of the populaton. If they fail to qualify, give them more chances. Prepare them to face the competitive world. Handing crutches is not a solution. It will only further alienate them from the rest of the society.

Giving freebies is not a solution. Also, there are 250Million Dalits(SC/ST) in India. Most of them are in poverty. Govt will never be able to bring them out of their poverty by giving them free seats and jobs.

You cannot give a Dalit student a seat in Engineering college when he cannot even write his name properly. Instead, the Govt should prepare the students to face the competition. There are also some Dalit students are very good at studies.

Even if the Dalit student some how passes Engineering, how will he get a job? Yes, he will get Govt jobs. But how many Govt jobs are there?

With the sheer number of Dalits in India (250million), the best option would be to give them free education and incentives to get educated. Not free jobs and seats in professional colleges.

 

[insaan]

With reservation, you may have a Pietersen and a Trott losing out. But you also gain Duminy, Ntini, Philander, who could have never made it otherwise. It is unfair to Trotts, but this is the way to correct historical injustice.

That is why I like the South African team more,, as it represents all sections of the society, and the players have proven their class. The loss of Pietersens is a small price to pay for it.

 

[insaan]

Govt should provide free education, meals for Dalit students to get educated. Not free jobs.

If Govt is giving free jobs, it means that the Govt wants Dalits to believe that they cannot get the job without reservation.

Provide free education and make them fit to take entrance exam with the rest of the populaton. If they fail to qualify, give them more chances. Prepare them to face the competitive world. Handing crutches is not a solution. It will only further alienate them from the rest of the society.

Giving freebies is not a solution. Also, there are 250Million Dalits(SC/ST) in India. Most of them are in poverty. Govt will never be able to bring them out of their poverty by giving them free seats and jobs.

You cannot give a Dalit student a seat in Engineering college when he cannot even write his name properly. Instead, the Govt should prepare the students to face the competition. There are also some Dalit students are very good at studies.

Even if the Dalit student some how passes Engineering, how will he get a job? Yes, he will get Govt jobs. But how many Govt jobs are there?

With the sheer number of Dalits in India (250million), the best option would be to give them free education and incentives to get educated. Not free jobs and seats in professional colleges.

The education scheme is already there. Free meals and free education for the poor, which includes Dalits. But you do know the quality of govt education. With one teacher for 100 students, and even the teachers are not of good quality.

I am happy that the Right to education might help in that regard. Private schools will have to give 25% free seats to the poor. But not sure if that is feasible.

Ideally everyone should have a level playing field. And providing education is one way to do so.

But, if the policy makers are mostly from the upper castes, it is important that Dalits are represented there too. Because policy makers have a habit of making laws favourable for themselves. SO it is important that Dalits have a presence there. Agreed, they might not be of the same quality, but one had to start somewhere.

Do you know that Tamil Brahmins demanded a change in education during the British time? The pass marks were 50, but they were not able to compete. So they demanded and got it reduced to 30( i might be wrong about the figure, will have to cross check). And it was fair then, because the Brits had an advantage over Tamil Brahmins when it came to English.

We have to give concessions to the weaker section at the beginning so that the process of upliftment can boot start.

It is another thing that it hasnt been implemented properly in India.

 

[mithun_minhas]

You never know some Dalits may have converted to Islam and are now fans of the Pakistan cricket team.

Can you provide some statistics, percentages of who many hold high positions compared to those who are still treated as untouchables?

Also why in Hinduism is this caste system prevalent? Is there scripture to back this up?

It has been there for centuries. Classic case. Aboriginals vs the fresh immigrants.

Fresh immigrants were better equipped and forced themselves on to subcontinent. Native people resisted and later on exiled as they did not accept the rules of the immigrants.

Natives were discriminated and not killed unlike white people who wiped out the native people and called it their ow country.

Now there are tons of people who have mixed with the native people. It even gets hard to tell them apart in some cases. Initially there was a lot of mixing. Many could even cross the caste barrier and become anybody.
Hence it is not a surprise if you can find a light skinned Dalit and a dark skinned upper caste fellow.

But Sage Manu wrote some rules which prevented further mixing. He drew strict lines between castes and emphasized that nobody should cross that boundary. Most accepted the rules of Manu except the native people (Dalits). Hence Manu did not include them in caste system and Dalits were treated as outcastes and it is a crime for anyone to even talk to Dalits as Dalits were considered impure. Till today it has become a tradition even though it is slowly changing.

But what remained was the concept of untouchability. They are still treated with the same attitude by some upper caste people in some remote places.

 

[shan]

It has been there for centuries. Classic case. Aboriginals vs the fresh immigrants.

Fresh immigrants were better equipped and forced themselves on to subcontinent. Native people resisted and later on exiled as they did not accept the rules of the immigrants.

Natives were discriminated and not killed unlike white people who wiped out the native people and called it their ow country.

Now there are tons of people who have mixed with the native people. It even gets hard to tell them apart in some cases. Initially there was a lot of mixing. Many could even cross the caste barrier and become anybody.
Hence it is not a surprise if you can find a light skinned Dalit and a dark skinned upper caste fellow.

But Sage Manu wrote some rules which prevented further mixing. He drew strict lines between castes and emphasized that nobody should cross that boundary. Most accepted the rules of Manu except the native people (Dalits). Hence Manu did not include them in caste system and Dalits were treated as outcastes and it is a crime for anyone to even talk to Dalits as Dalits were considered impure. Till today it has become a tradition even though it is slowly changing.

But what remained was the concept of untouchability. They are still treated with the same attitude by some upper caste people in some remote places.

From where did fresh inmigrants come from?

 

[mithun_minhas]

From where did fresh inmigrants come from?

From many waves of immigration from Central Asia, Persia, Middle East...

 

[Bilal7]

Can Hindu Dalits attend the same temples as a regular Hindu?

 

[insaan]

Can Hindu Dalits attend the same temples as a regular Hindu?

Maybe they can, but I doubt people will allow if they know that the devotee is a Dalit.

There have been many reports, where Dalits have been forbidden from entering the temples. In one case in Tamil Nadu, they were not allowed to even use the road which led to the temple.

After government order, the wall blocking their path was demolished.

Just google "Dalit in Temples", and you will see lots of incidents.

 

[IgnitedMind]

Can Hindu Dalits attend the same temples as a regular Hindu?

No They cant,..we kill them. some Hindus are appointed by Shiva sena to go to each temple all over the country and see if the temple is allowing dalits...if they are dalits are killed and temple is destroyed...

 

[IgnitedMind]

Maybe they can, but I doubt people will allow if they know that the devotee is a Dalit.

There have been many reports, where Dalits have been forbidden from entering the temples. In one case in Tamil Nadu, they were not allowed to even use the road which led to the temple.

After government order, the wall blocking their path was demolished.

Just google "Dalit in Temples", and you will see lots of incidents.

Really?? I mean really? so Dalits dont go to Tirupati..who is checking their caste in tirupathi..out of lakhs of vistors everyday?

This generic discussions is nauseating...

its not like ..does dalit discrimination occur in places in India..which would be yes..
but its more like...
do dalits go to temples in india....are they allowed to urinate? can dalit dance to a song created by a regular hindu ?

 

[Shaddy]

After reading this thread, I think the black/darker Christians in Pakistan are the dalit christians. They have their own areas where they all live, and dont exactly have decent jobs apart from cleaning.

 

[mithun_minhas]

No They cant,..we kill them. some Hindus are appointed by Shiva sena to go to each temple all over the country and see if the temple is allowing dalits...if they are dalits are killed and temple is destroyed...

LOL

There are Dalit Priests in Tirupathi. Read some where. Can anyone confirm?

Yes, Dalits are allowed to enter temples. This is not 18th century or early 19th century. Nobody checks the identity of anyone. May be there could be some incidents here and there. But it is not prevalant

 

[insaan]

Really?? I mean really? so Dalits dont go to Tirupati..who is checking their caste in tirupathi..out of lakhs of vistors everyday?

This generic discussions is nauseating...

its not like ..does dalit discrimination occur in places in India..which would be yes..
but its more like...
do dalits go to temples in india....are they allowed to urinate? can dalit dance to a song created by a regular hindu ?

I don't know about Tirupathi. Anyway, even if they want it is difficult to find out if the devotee is a Dalit, and it is such a high profile temple that they cannot afford any discrimination.

But just google and you will find many incidents where Dalits have been prevented from entering temples.

You are trying to trivialize this thing by your examples of urinating and dancing. Anyway, I dont have to change anyones opinion. That is the last thing that I will do on a forum.

 

[IgnitedMind]

LOL

There are Dalit Priests in Tirupathi. Read some where. Can anyone confirm?

Yes, Dalits are allowed to enter temples. This is not 18th century or early 19th century. Nobody checks the identity of anyone. May be there could be some incidents here and there. But it is not prevalant

Who are you kidding? I just killed a dalit coz he looked at the temple.....its common in India....

 

[insaan]

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-11-11/chennai/30386248_1_dalits-and-non-dalits-asra-garg-tnuef

Uthapuram dalits finally allowed to enter temple.

http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/dalits-given-entry-into-tamil-nadu-temple-after-decades-148842

http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/100-dalits-arrested-for-trying-to-enter-temple-82496

http://www.hindu.com/2010/03/17/stories/2010031763580600.htm

 

[insaan]

@Mithun. Please read the links I posted. They are not from the 18th century.

@navroks. No need to get so touchy about it. There is evidence that they are stopped from entering in some temples. Stop trivializing this atrocity. It might work with the Pakistanis, who are not aware of many things in India.

 

[IgnitedMind]

I don't know about Tirupathi. Anyway, even if they want it is difficult to find out if the devotee is a Dalit, and it is such a high profile temple that they cannot afford any discrimination.

But just google and you will find many incidents where Dalits have been prevented from entering temples.

You are trying to trivialize this thing by your examples of urinating and dancing. Anyway, I dont have to change anyones opinion. That is the last thing that I will do on a forum.

Seriously Google? Coz I can google and find out that a five men raped a 3 yrs old girl, a guy ate a human body , that a certain company discriminated against blacks, a certain community has a girl sex slaves. So?? Shall we start discussing like its common and everybody in their respective nations do it and answer questions like "are dalits allowed to temples in india" these are incidents....When did I deny that there are people who discrminate..where are people who do not discriminate?...out of how many temples in india..you think discrmination occurs? 5 in 100??? that I think is stretching too much....

 

[insaan]

Seriously Google? Coz I can google and find out that a five men raped a 3 yrs old girl, a guy ate a human body , that a certain company discriminated against blacks, a certain community has a girl sex slaves. So?? Shall we start discussing like its common and everybody in their respective nations do it and answer questions like "are dalits allowed to temples in india" these are incidents....When did I deny that there are people who discrminate..where are people who do not discriminate?...out of how many temples in india..you think discrmination occurs? 5 in 100??? that I think is stretching too much....

I never said it is common, because I dont have any data. But it does happen, and that itself is a shame.

Why so offended. Peace

 

[IgnitedMind]

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-11-11/chennai/30386248_1_dalits-and-non-dalits-asra-garg-tnuef

Uthapuram dalits finally allowed to enter temple.

http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/dalits-given-entry-into-tamil-nadu-temple-after-decades-148842

http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/100-dalits-arrested-for-trying-to-enter-temple-82496

http://www.hindu.com/2010/03/17/stories/2010031763580600.htm

This basically is the point....that fact that in a nation of 1.2 billion and in a tradition of discriminating dalits..small incidents like these are making news...like its an atrocity which means they are not widely prevelant that happens..like rape..or murder as such..may be a little more common. I am not getting touchy , I understand the reality..we have the problem..we have to work on it..I do not like the tone of the discussion that is going on here..and acting like its predominant in the indian society THESE days!!

 

[IgnitedMind]

I never said it is common, because I dont have any data. But it does happen, and that itself is a shame.

Why so offended. Peace

No, I am not offended. I will readily accept that discrimination occurs in India..what I said in my previous post is the problem. Its a shame..true,.....just like its a shame that rapes happen in our country...just like its a shame that people are corrupted....

 

[insaan]

This is basically is the point....that fact that in a nation of 1.2 billion and in a tradition of discriminating dalits..small incidents like these are making news...like its an atrocity which means they are widely prevelant that happens..like rape..or murder as such..may be a little more common. I am not getting touchy , I understand the reality..we have the problem..we have to work on it..I do not like the tone of the discussion that is going on here..and acting like its predominant in the indian society THESE days!!

You might see these as small incidents. I don't. I think it is a big shame that they happen even today.

And where I stay, Dalits don't go to the Temples in which the others go.

Just because these were reported doesn't mean these are the only ones happening.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

And lastly, I do not care about the tone of discussion here. What Pakistanis think of India does not matter one rupee to me. I will give my opinions to anyone and everyone.

 

[insaan]

If you have time, and want to educate yourself in this matter. Please read, this Govt report.

http://www.nhrc.nic.in/Publications/reportKBSaxena.pdf

 

[insaan]

No, I am not offended. I will readily accept that discrimination occurs in India..what I said in my previous post is the problem. Its a shame..true,.....just like its a shame that rapes happen in our country...just like its a shame that people are corrupted....

You accept that it is a shame, and yet you trivialize this topic by giving your urination and dancing analogies. And that you killed a Dalit for looking at a temple example.

Yes, that is how one expresses shame.

 

[IgnitedMind]

You might see these as small incidents. I don't. I think it is a big shame that they happen even today.

And where I stay, Dalits don't go to the Temples in which the others go.

Just because these were reported doesn't mean these are the only ones happening.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

And lastly, I do not care about the tone of discussion here. What Pakistanis think of India does not matter one rupee to me. I will give my opinions to anyone and everyone.

and when did anybody say that its matters you what pakistanis think of India?who said that, why did you find the need to say that?

And okay..and then you will be ashamed all your life..because we will have rapes/discrimination/murder/corruption in your country...

Everybody with ab IQ of 10 knows that those are probably not the only incidents happening..but the fact that you had to stress on it show what you want to convey..and you repeated stress on things which you think gives you more credibility....how about learning to act?

 

[IgnitedMind]

You accept that it is a shame, and yet you trivialize this topic by giving your urination and dancing analogies. And that you killed a Dalit for looking at a temple example.

Yes, that is how one expresses shame.

Will get back to you in a while.

 

[insaan]

and when did anybody say that its matters you what pakistanis think of India?who said that, why did you find the need to say that?

And okay..and then you will be ashamed all your life..because we will have rapes/discrimination/murder/corruption in your country...

Everybody with ab IQ of 10 knows that those are probably not the only incidents happening..but the fact that you had to stress on it show what you want to convey..and you repeated stress on things which you think gives you more credibility....how about learning to act?

I logically draw the conclusion that I have an IQ below 10.

Anyway, done with answering you. You are the winner!!

 

[insaan]

Will get back to you in a while.

Sure, but read the National Human Rights Comission's report I sent. Otherwise don't bother replying. I am always willing to have discussions which are informed, not the ones which reduce to personal battles.

 

[IgnitedMind]

You accept that it is a shame, and yet you trivialize this topic by giving your urination and dancing analogies. And that you killed a Dalit for looking at a temple example.

Yes, that is how one expresses shame.

Sure, I was actually making fun of the people who are discriminated and people who are dead by that statement..not at the question I quoted or the posts above me.

 

[IgnitedMind]

Sure, but read the National Human Rights Comission's report I sent. Otherwise don't bother replying. I am always willing to have discussions which are informed, not the ones which reduce to personal battles.

Sure, I would rather argue with somebody who actually has a genuine concern and looks at both sides of the coin rather than who come here with an agenda and act goody goody!!!

 

[insaan]

There are approximately 2.8 million Dalits in Pakistan who constitute 1.5 percent of the country's population. Being a majority- Muslim country, Dalits in Pakistan fall under the non-Muslim category and have no separate laws to protect their interests. Although Dalits in Pakistan received reservation in the public sector right after independence, an amendment in 1998 converted the law into a six percent reservation scheme for all minorities, with no specific protection for the Dalits. Apart from struggling to get jobs in the public sector they also find it difficult to represent themselves at the parliament. “Currently, there is only one dalit in the parliament with majority of the reserved seats taken by upper-caste Hindus,” explains Kalavanti Raja, Pakistan's representative at the conference. She further says that Dalits face problems during elections since rich Hindu businessmen buy majority of the seats.

http://www.thedailystar.net/magazine/2011/12/04/human.htm

Can any Pakistani PPer confirm this. Sad, that their reservation was taken away.

 

[shan]

http://www.thedailystar.net/magazine/2011/12/04/human.htm

Can any Pakistani PPer confirm this. Sad, that their reservation was taken away.

2.8m dalits and around hindus 2.5m. The problem is Dalits live in thar regions of Sindh, which poor area anyway. Pakistani goverment shouldnt mix both of them toghether if this is what they are doing, since its clear these 2 are separate groups.

According to Hindu Councin of Pakistan there are 7 million hindus, dont know if its true. Anyway here is their website.

http://www.pakistanhinducouncil.org/

 

[insaan]

2.8m dalits and around hindus 2.5m. The problem is Dalits live in thar regions of Sindh, which poor area anyway. Pakistani goverment shouldnt mix both of them toghether if this is what they are doing, since its clear these 2 are separate groups.

According to Hindu Councin of Pakistan there are 7 million hindus, dont know if its true. Anyway here is their website.

http://www.pakistanhinducouncil.org/

So it was the Nawaz Shareef govt which took away the rights of Dalits. Kudos to Jinnah for understanding the Dalit problems and giving them separate representation. Jadunath Mondal, a Dalit, was one of his ministers.

If Dalits are merged with Hindus, it is understandable that their rights will be usurped by the Upper Castes. This has been the history.

Even in Nepal, Dalits are worse off. It was during the recent Maoist govt, that Dalits got some rights. Learnt it from my cook, who is from Nepal.

 

[Garuda]

Reservations are necessary to correct historical wrongs. One cannot ignore centuries of discrimination. It is for those historical wrongs, you and I are paying when it becomes difficult to get admission or govt jobs.

At an individual level it may be wrong for some, and I know of poor upper castes who could not get admission, and some well off dalits who used it, but such cases are few.

If not reservation, then suggest alternative for the upliftment of the backward classes.

It is another thing that reservation is not implemented properly. The creamy layer should not get benefits at the cost of the real needy dalits.

But I am pro reservation.

Reservation in the name of caste means you are supporting the caste system and do not want it to go away. If you keep calling SC, ST, OBC and hence forth, aren't you actually creating them more prominent ?

How is it going to change the situation. It may give some people from that caste benefits but it will never give benefit to whole. On the other hand the feeling and bad blood will increase.

Do you think our politicians wants reservation to help the dalit ? Hell No. Its just a vote bank politics.

If you want reservation make it on economic level irrespective of caste. There should be no mention of caste in any (ANY) thing.

If dalits are the most economically behind then by making economic reservation, they will also come under it without the creamy layer taking the benefit always.

 

[ahamedirshad123]

Even in Nepal, Dalits are worse off. It was during the recent Maoist govt, that Dalits got some rights. Learnt it from my cook, who is from Nepal.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Cg4u89aJHOo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[shan]

You accept that it is a shame, and yet you trivialize this topic by giving your urination and dancing analogies. And that you killed a Dalit for looking at a temple example.

Yes, that is how one expresses shame.

They start comparing themselfs with Nazis to show look its not as bad as its been made out.

 

[mithun_minhas]

Dalits should have had their separate nation at the time of independence.

I know I get blasted for this statement, but if you look at their history, they got it bad and were never even allowed into the areas where Caste Hindus lived.

Also, 30% of India's population are Dalit(SC/ST). That is more than the population of Pakistan. If Muslims deserved a separate country, then Dalits deserved it too. For all the atrocities they suffered, they needed self respect. Calling them Hindu is an insult to them when they were never considered Hindu. They were just called Adivasi (original inhabitants or Aboriginal).

I never lived in any villages, so I cannot complain anything about the atrocities that were committed on them even today. I only lived in cities where Dalits have it good where ever they go. They have everything reserved. It looks like they get humiliated in remote villages. Don't know when it will change.

I always laugh when RSS/VHP complain about Christian missionaries converting Dalits to Christianity. Why are these idiots even worrying about it when their same philosophy never considered Dalits as Hindus?

If Dalits are converting, it means they are converting from their traditional beliefs to Christianity. Not from Hinduism to Christianity. Also, these so called RSS/VHP even till today never address the problem of untouchability. Did they ever openly declare that it is inhuman? They just keep mum on these issues and only whine about Dalits mass conversion to Christianity.

The only thing i did not like about Dalits converting to Christianity is the literature they would be given to spew venom against Brahmins. One day I accidentally read some books that were supposed to go to a Dalit Christian family in our apartments. The mail man messed it up. Me and my friend just opened the book and were shocked to see the stuff written in there. No sane man would ever think of writing about killing and wiping out Brahmins. The literature was all about how Brahmins and their croonie cousins (Kshatriyas) subjugated Dalits. It even claimed that Indus Valley civilization was built by Dalits and Brahmins destroyed it.

 

[insaan]

@Mithun Great post.

Indians must thank Ambedkar, for if he wanted, he could have demanded a separate nation for Dalits. Looking back, maybe that would have been better for the Dalits.

 

[shan]

But which state? Isnt dalits all over India and not concentrated in place?

 

[mithun_minhas]

But which state? Isnt dalits all over India and not concentrated in place?

It won't be easy to decide the place, but they should get a place where they are concentrated more.

Probably in South-East of India.

Muslims were spread all over India. But they managed to get their land.

Its too late to even discuss it now. Indians should learn to live together well. As long as religion will rule the roost, these kinds of issues will continue to exist.

 

[mithun_minhas]

@Mithun Great post.

Indians must thank Ambedkar, for if he wanted, he could have demanded a separate nation for Dalits. Looking back, maybe that would have been better for the Dalits.

Had Ambedkar accepted Christianity instead of Buddhism, he might have followed Jinnah way.

 

[Garuda]

It won't be easy to decide the place, but they should get a place where they are concentrated more.

Probably in South-East of India.

Muslims were spread all over India. But they managed to get their land.

Its too late to even discuss it now. Indians should learn to live together well. As long as religion will rule the roost, these kinds of issues will continue to exist.

I think it would have been a disaster for Dalits. Today atleast they have 33% reservation in govt and govt jobs.

During independence there were virtually no education in dalits. So creating a nation of people where more than 90% were illeterate is a crime. The 10% elite would have completely made the life of rest horrible.

Atleast with India, they have enough people who think to bring them up (though I do not agree with caste based reservation). Atleast we have 33% dalits in govt leadership which are assured seats.