Definition Of Civilian In Conflict In Relation To Israel/Palestine Conflict...

[shaykh]

Starting a new thread so as to not derail another one...

The common narrative is Israel = bad and Resistance = good...

What I have suggested in the other thread is that the resistance is responsible for war crimes from a legal standpoint...as they deliberately target civilians...

The Geneva Conventions say the following:

The civilian population as such, as well as individual civilians, shall not be the object of attack. Acts or threats of violence, the primary purpose of which is to spread terror among the civilian population, are prohibited.

In order to ensure respect for and protection of the civilian population and civilian objects, the Parties to the conflict shall at all times distinguish between the civilian population and combatants, and between civilian objects and military objectives, and accordingly shall direct their operations only against military objectives.

So any non-military targets are considered non-combatants...

Palestinian armed organisations offer up a set of defences for their actions...

Sometimes they argue that they do not target civilians...i will come to this in a moment...

Sometimes they argue that attacks on civilians are justified as a response to Israeli aggression...however just as Israel is judged and condemned for its use of indiscriminate force so should those on the other side...if one side breaks the law this doesn't make the other sides acts just nor legal...reprisals are prohibited by law...

Now on the subject of who is a civilian...anyone who is not actively engaging in hostilities...therefore reserve or off duty soldiers are not classed as combatants...unless they take part in hostilities or are under direct military command...the same rule exists for civilians who bear arms...

Therefore the argument that Israelis in general are legitimate targets has no legal basis...

Hamas have argued that all Israelis are legitimate targets:

They are all in the military, men and women.... They wear civilian clothes inside Israel, and military clothes when they are with us.... The 20,000 or 30,000 reserve soldiers, where did they come from? Are they not part of the Israeli people? Were they not civilians?

Its worth noting that the elderly and children arent classified as combatants by Hamas...but their rockets have been described as war crimes because they are indiscriminate...Hamas certainly have made no effort to distinguish between reservists, elderly or the children with their rockets...

Another quite poor justification for relaxing rules on the conduct of war is the imbalance of power...its a weak argument because frankly no conflict has equal levels of power...being the weaker team doesnt mean you are allowed to use indiscriminate force...

This is simply focusing on conduct when attacking...

Human Rights Organisations have also shown how Hamas like almost all guerilla/terror organisations violate many laws in defence...usually at the expense of civilian population but thats for another time...

So do posters believe all Israeli are legitimate targets?...ie KKWC's arguments?...

Or can some Israeli men and women who have served in the military be considered civilians?...

When does someone become a settler?...and what are those borders?...what if any difference is there between someone who arrives and someone who is born within said borders?...

Does a 'just' cause mean one can relax standards of conduct?...

 

[blackanhyellow]

No I do not believe innocent Israelis are legitimate targets.

Hamas is either a political organization that has a terrorist/militant wing, or a terrorist/militant organization with a political wing, not sure which.

However, I do believe in people's right to self determination.

Israel is playing double games when they are breaking international laws by building settlements.

Some people believe they are land grabbing to end the 2 state solution, I don't think so. I do not think they want to live with Palestinians who have higher birth rates and will become a majority one day. They are trying to land grab as much as possible, before the inevitable 2 state solution. They want Jerusalem, and I don't think they are willing to compromise on that.

Palestinians don't have a standing army, so they can't go to war with Israel. In effect Palestinians are left with the same options as Kashmiris, Irish, and so many others throughout history.

Something to note: The labels "freedom fighter" and "terrorist" in this context depends on which bias you hold.

Remember, the Mujahideen were freedom fighters for the Americans, and terrorists to the Russians.

The American freedom fighters were terrorists to the British.

The Boloch insurgents are terrorists to Pakistan, but freedom fighters to the Indians.

Kashmiri insurgents are freedom fighters to Paksitanis, yet terrorists to India.

 

[KingKhanWC]

/So do posters believe all Israeli are legitimate targets?...ie KKWC's arguments?...

It's typical of those who defend Israel to make up stories. There was no use the word 'all' or any suggestion towards what you have wrote. After military service Israeli serve in reserve duty for years to come. A Palestinian who is being oppressed by an occupying soldier has a right to self defence of himself, his family, his people and his homeland. If they do attack and harm a reservist who has been involved in crimes and who may once again do the same, it's hardly a case of attacking a small child i.e a real civillian.

It's earily ironic an israeli supporter would want to debate the defintion of a civilian since Israel deliberatry attacks civilians.

The OP also believes a settler is also a civlian. I wonder if someone decided to settle in his garden or maybe bulldozed his house and built their own in it's place , would he give them the same coutersy of being an innocent civilian?

OP should go back to Israel , recieve some further training and do what Mark Reghav does, he wouldnt bring up the idea to discuss what is a civilian in this conflict.

 

[shaykh]

No I do not believe innocent Israelis are legitimate targets.

Hamas is either a political organization that has a terrorist/militant wing, or a terrorist/militant organization with a political wing, not sure which.

However, I do believe in people's right to self determination.

Israel is playing double games when they are breaking international laws by building settlements.

Some people believe they are land grabbing to end the 2 state solution, I don't think so. I do not think they want to live with Palestinians who have higher birth rates and will become a majority one day. They are trying to land grab as much as possible, before the inevitable 2 state solution. They want Jerusalem, and I don't think they are willing to compromise on that.

Palestinians don't have a standing army, so they can't go to war with Israel. In effect Palestinians are left with the same options as Kashmiris, Irish, and so many others throughout history.

Something to note: The labels "freedom fighter" and "terrorist" in this context depends on which bias you hold.

Remember, the Mujahideen were freedom fighters for the Americans, and terrorists to the Russians.

The American freedom fighters were terrorists to the British.

The Boloch insurgents are terrorists to Pakistan, but freedom fighters to the Indians.

Kashmiri insurgents are freedom fighters to Paksitanis, yet terrorists to India.

I kinda disagree with the freedom fighter ideal in general tbf...mostly due to the means they use against their direct opponent...and also in relation to how they suppress opposition from their own kind...brutality towards 'collaborators' or 'traitors'...who sometimes are simply those who disagree is often overlooked and this isnt just a look at Hamas but movements in general...FARC are a good example of the more famous...PKK also is known to clamp down on Kurds more so than it does on Turks...

I do think the two state solution is dead for now...the left and centre of the Israeli spectrum who generally did seem interested in peace seem to have conceded of late that no agreement will be reached...

One guy I do find interesting is the President Rivlin...someone Netanyahu doesnt like...and is hard to pin down ideologically...has the Greater Israel idea...yet has also publicly been the staunchest critic of racism, jingoism and its ilk...appears his ideal is a Greater Israel where Arabs are given equal rights...the one state solution probably works for most non-hardline Palestinians too...not a mainstream idea in Israel or Likud which still argues for two state...but one state is certainly one to think about...its not good being an Israeli Arab but its a hell of a lot better than being an Arab in the West Bank and Gaza...sometimes you gotta accept your lot...

 

[shaykh]

It's typical of those who defend Israel to make up stories. There was no use the word 'all' or any suggestion towards what you have wrote. After military service Israeli serve in reserve duty for years to come. A Palestinian who is being oppressed by an occupying soldier has a right to self defence of himself, his family, his people and his homeland. If they do attack and harm a reservist who has been involved in crimes and who may once again do the same, it's hardly a case of attacking a small child i.e a real civillian.

It's earily ironic an israeli supporter would want to debate the defintion of a civilian since Israel deliberatry attacks civilians.

The OP also believes a settler is also a civlian. I wonder if someone decided to settle in his garden or maybe bulldozed his house and built their own in it's place , would he give them the same coutersy of being an innocent civilian?

OP should go back to Israel , recieve some further training and do what Mark Reghav does, he wouldnt bring up the idea to discuss what is a civilian in this conflict.

Lol nonsense...you have said 'occupiers' and you have stated that all of Israel is occupied so does this not make all Israelis occupiers?...

I've assisted you with the disclaimer that the elderly and children dont count...

I'll ask you directly then...is everyone who has done military service in the past but not an active soldier NOW a legitimate target?...a yes or no will suffice...

Actually international law also states that a settler is a civilian...and again lets define first what YOUR definition is of a settler...are all Israelis settlers or not?...or to make it easier...is anyone who arrived after 1948 a legitimate target?...

 

[MenInG]

A Palestinian teenager has died of his injuries after being beaten by Israeli forces near the town of Turmus-Ayya northeast of Ramallah, according to several Palestinian news outlets.

The Palestinian health ministry said that Amer Abedalrahim Snobar arrived at the hospital after being “severely beaten on the neck”.

Ahmed al-Bitawi, director of the Palestine Medical Complex, confirmed to Palestinian news outlets on Sunday morning that Snobar died as a result of injuries sustained from an attack by Israeli forces.

“There were visible signs of beatings on Snobar’s neck,” Bitawi said.

The medical centre reported that the injuries to Snobar’s neck were consistent with being beaten with the butts of Israeli soldiers’ rifles.

In a statement, the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) accused Israeli troops of “a monstrous act of brutality against a defenceless young man whose only crime was being Palestinian”.

Senior PLO official Hanan Ashrawi said in the statement that Sanouber had been “bludgeoned” by Israeli troops.

Snobar hailed from the village of Yatma, south of the occupied West Bank city of Nablus.

Members of a medical NGO team told local Palestinian news outlets they tried to perform cardiac resuscitation on Snobar before transferring him to the medical centre.

Israel’s army said troops responded to an incident north of Ramallah after rocks were hurled at an army vehicle.

Troops “in the area were dispatched to the scene and searched the area for assailants” the army statement said.

“Initial details suggest that upon the arrival of the troops… the two suspects tried to escape by foot,” it said. “While fleeing, one of the suspects apparently lost consciousness, collapsed and hit his head. The suspect was not beaten by IDF troops.”

In a statement, the leftist Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) said Snobar’s murder will be a “curse that will continue to haunt Arab traitors” – in reference to the recent normalisation deals by the United Arab Emirates, Bahrain, and Sudan.

“The response to this heinous crime is to withdraw the recognition of the Zionist entity and all agreements that resulted from it, and the formation of a unified national leadership capable of leading popular resistance against the Zionist occupation,” the statement said.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/10/25/palestinian-teen-dies-after-assault-by-israeli-soldiers

 

[KingKhanWC]

Lol nonsense...you have said 'occupiers' and you have stated that all of Israel is occupied so does this not make all Israelis occupiers?...

I've assisted you with the disclaimer that the elderly and children dont count...

I'll ask you directly then...is everyone who has done military service in the past but not an active soldier NOW a legitimate target?...a yes or no will suffice...

Actually international law also states that a settler is a civilian...and again lets define first what YOUR definition is of a settler...are all Israelis settlers or not?...or to make it easier...is anyone who arrived after 1948 a legitimate target?...

Yes, if you have oppressed, fired guns at women and children and continue to support a terrorist org like the IDF, you are an enemy combtant, legitimate target, call it what you wish.

For Israel children are legitimate targets, yet you're hush. No decent human being would support Israeli occupation and terrorism, please seek help.