Do the Mohammad Amir excuses apply to Pat Cummins?

[Junaids]

If you compile the threads on Mohammad Amir, a couple of different arguments emerge.

The main argument is "after 5 years out, he is incapable of ever recovering his speed or menace. No man can return from such a lay-off".

The subtext seems to be that some people who were hurt and angered by his criminal behaviour in 2010 seem to be desperate to write him off.

So where does this leave Pat Cummins?

Many of you are familiar with his brief 20 and 50 over cameos between back stress fractures over the last 5 years.

But Cummins is so much more.

He made a legendary Test debut in Johannesburg 5 years ago and was Man of the Match, since which time he has not played another Test match and has played 2 First Class matches in 5 years, and bowled only 37.4 overs.

All of us in Australia know that Cummins and Pattinson are the missing parts of the jigsaw, the men who would convert this mediocre Aussie Test team into the team with the most feared bowling attack for decades.

So how does it work? Does 5 years of no First Class cricket mean that Cummins is never going to hit the heights?

 

[Executioner]

I don't understand how these young bowlers are so fragile. I can understand Bangladeshi bowlers struggling but why Aussie ones who are arguably fitter

 

[Junaids]

I don't understand how these young bowlers are so fragile. I can understand Bangladeshi bowlers struggling but why Aussie ones who are arguably fitter

Young fast bowlers have always been vulnerable to stress fractures.

But the move away from First Class cricket to more and more 20 and 50 over cricket is killing them.

In the old days, a young fast bowler would bowl at least 15 First Class matches in England every summer as well as his domestic competition, and the weekly 40 over competition in England and the 55 and 60 over competitions.

Bowlers like Courtney Walsh who did this learned that they couldn't ever bowl at maximum pace, and had to learn to use angles of delivery and seam and swing to take wicket in the 130-140K range.

Occasionally they would bowl a spell in Tests where they bowled a few quicker balls, but they didn't push their bodies too much.

Not any more. Even during his five year absence from Tests and First Class cricket I have seen Cummins push his body to the limit in 20 and 50 over matches, bowling faster than his body can handle. I've seen the same with Pattinson too.

Then, a few weeks later, the stress fractures emerge and they are out for a year or more.

 

[ahmedwaqas92]

The difference is simple, Pat Cummins could train, practice and participate in any and all ACB held events and camps while Amir wasn't even allowed to hold a ball in any official capacity.

The reason why people give him leeway is because of this reason and the management is stretching the rope as necessary.

If you don't do any proper conditioning, practice of any sort of cricket related stuff in a controlled environment - you're bound to loose some ability on the whole.

It will be insanely difficult for Amir to replicate how he burst out on the scene becuaee apart from loosing five years of cricket he also lost 5 years of playing experience and how a bowler is developed with trials and turbulence of test cricket and other first class seasons.

The experience loss is actually hindering his ability to hit top gear at the moment while I think it will take around 3-4 seasons of cricket for him to actually come back into pre ban state.

Neither his critics realize this not his fans !!

 

[Hasan123]

I hope pattinson and Cummins can stay fit.

Cummins deserves more leeway than Amir because it's not his fault that he is getting injured. I think he may need to stop trying to bowl in full throttle for every spell. Conserve his energy and than crank it up at certain times. Such a shame that he hasn't been able to play test cricket after a good debut.

 

[Mamoon]

You mentioned the subtext and it's perfectly normal and acceptable - Cummins' career has hampered by injuries so you definitely feel sorry for him and give him more leeway, unlike Amir who is a sell-out and should be extremely thankful that he got another chance to play international cricket.

 

[Convict]

I'm not sure why Cummins is the missing link. Our fast bowling isn't the issue.

In fact by some measures Hazlewood and Starc is our most successful opening pair ever.

 

[Junaids]

I'm not sure why Cummins is the missing link. Our fast bowling isn't the issue.

In fact by some measures Hazlewood and Starc is our most successful opening pair ever.

I think they are developing into a brilliant pair.

But then you go down to Bird and Lyon, and that's a huge, huge release of pressure for the batsmen. Plus the loss of Mitch Marsh as an all-rounder means that the quicks get very little rest.

I have almost given up on Lyon, and I'd ideally like the lower half of the order next season to be:

6. Glenn Maxwell (yes, I read his comments about Wade)
7. Sam Whiteman
8. Mitch Starc
9. James Pattinson
10. Pat Cummins
11. Josh Hazlewood

This restores the four quicks plus one spinner model, and gives Starc and Hazlewood a lot more rest.

I know that Maxwell is a dodgy bat, but Starc, Cummins and Pattinson are all decent batsmen themselves.

 

[Convict]

All Cummins would do is make the other two guys need more rest.

Maxwell is rubbish as a bowler. Three quicks and a spinner is the way to go

 

[Hasan123]

All Cummins would do is make the other two guys need more rest.

Maxwell is rubbish as a bowler. Three quicks and a spinner is the way to go

Lol I don't understand Junaids obsession with Maxwell as the sole spinner. There is no guarantee that he will score runs at test level and he certainly won't do anything significant with the ball

 

[Suleiman]

One missed 5 years due to selling out his country, the other missed out from putting his body on the line day in day out for his country...

Also don't think Cummins will suffer as big of a gap as 5-6 years to put on the rustiness Amir has.

 

[Syed1]

Sorry Amir wipes the floors with these one-match wonders like Cummins.

We will see when Cummins comes back. Right now Amir >>....huge daylight... Cummins.

 

[GudduBadmash]

Confused as to what exactly Amir has done to be daylights ahead of any fast bowler right now.

 

[Syed1]

Confused as to what exactly Amir has done to be daylights ahead of any fast bowler right now.

For starters, he has ran up and bowled. That itself puts him daylights ahead of any bowler who is on the stretcher.

 

[Junaids]

Lol I don't understand Junaids obsession with Maxwell as the sole spinner. There is no guarantee that he will score runs at test level and he certainly won't do anything significant with the ball

So a bit like Lyon then.

It's just about balance and getting four quicks into the team so that the workloads of Cummins, Pattinson and Starc are not excessive.

 

[Hasan123]

So a bit like Lyon then.

It's just about balance and getting four quicks into the team so that the workloads of Cummins, Pattinson and Starc are not excessive.

You should advocate for Mitch Marsh playing as an all rounder if you want 4 quicks.

Yes Lyon might not score runs but his bowling is better than Maxwell. Didn't you see Lehmans quotes on Maxwell today? Maxwell doesn't have enough fc runs to play as a number 6 in tests.

 

[Pantani]

All Cummins would do is make the other two guys need more rest.

Maxwell is rubbish as a bowler. Three quicks and a spinner is the way to go

I like Maxwell because I think he can be a little bit Andrew Symonds-y

Worth the experiment? The selectors seem obsessed with having an allrounder, and I'm not convinced the likes of Moises Henriques or John Hastings should be in contention ahead of Maxwell (Marsh has obviously been given the chop for a while).

 

[Convict]

I like Maxwell because I think he can be a little bit Andrew Symonds-y

Worth the experiment? The selectors seem obsessed with having an allrounder, and I'm not convinced the likes of Moises Henriques or John Hastings should be in contention ahead of Maxwell (Marsh has obviously been given the chop for a while).

He's certainly not worth an experiment as the number 1 sponner in the team.

The selectors seem to have gotten past the allrounder obsession for now but I don't think Agar will be far off overtaking Maxwell.

 

[Timewaster]

People using Amir's excuse of 5 years away from cricket as to the reason he is avaerage now. Nothing stopped him going to the local nets himself and bowling 3 times a week during his ban.......
He has been back now for almost 2 years and isnt showing improvement, in fact he has lost pace and has been barely bowling 135kph in Tests...........

 

[Sidilicious]

He's certainly not worth an experiment as the number 1 sponner in the team.

The selectors seem to have gotten past the allrounder obsession for now but I don't think Agar will be far off overtaking Maxwell.

Possibly at Syndey/Adelaide he could play as the second spinner.

 

[Convict]

Possibly at Syndey/Adelaide he could play as the second spinner.

Why? His bowling is bog ordinary

 

[Dr_Bassim]

Why? His bowling is bog ordinary

He isn't so bad.

I remember him when he bowled Australia to victory over Pakistan in last over, by not letting the batsmen score 1 run !

 

[Sidilicious]

Why? His bowling is bog ordinary

Is there a better spin all rounder in Australia?

 

[Sidilicious]

He isn't so bad.

I remember him when he bowled Australia to victory over Pakistan in last over, by not letting the batsmen score 1 run !

Tbh, that was due to the utter incompetence of lambu than anything else.

 

[Convict]

Is there a better spin all rounder in Australia?

If you don't have anyone good don't bother.

Agar will overtake Maxwell soon

 

[Convict]

He isn't so bad.

I remember him when he bowled Australia to victory over Pakistan in last over, by not letting the batsmen score 1 run !

one day cricket isn't first class cricket