Do you wear a Poppy?

[DeRanged]

Okay so this is primary based on PakPassion British User, do you wear a poppy to remember dead soldiers, including some that died fighting for Britain in WW1 and WW2 with the help South Asians soldiers to.

I will be wearing one this year, primary because I've got to go to a remembrance march this year, what about you guys

 

[Haroon786]

No.

 

[Space Cat]

Always wear one on ANZAC day here.

 

[ElRaja]

havnt gone out of my way to wear one but have worn them in the past. my paternal grand father died in ww2 fighting the japanese.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

No, but apparently there are mosques that are encouraging poppy wearing this year to promote a better image. Which is fine by me, since I try to avoid mosques for the most part anyway.

 

[Andrew Hughes]

I will honour the minute's silence. Remembrance Day is unambiguously about remembering the horrific slaughter of WW1, a mournful occasion, as it should be.

I don't wear a poppy. The poem on which the idea of poppy wearing is based was written early in WW1 and is of the death or glory genre, not of the later Wilfred Owen/Siegfried Sassoon school. It talks of 'passing on the torch' and 'taking up the fight against the foe', it exemplifies the idea of 'dulce et decorum est pro patria mori' that Owen so bitterly, and rightly condemned, it appears to celebrate the very naive patriotism that led so many young men to their deaths. There is nothing glorious about war, and nothing to celebrate.

These days poppy wearing appears to be as much about a bland, general sign of support for the armed forces, or worse still, a sign of patriotism, rather than as way of remembering the death and futility of war. So I choose not to wear it.

That said, I know many people who will wear it for what they see as the right reasons, to remember those of their relatives and ancestors who died, so I wouldn't ever criticise anyone for wearing one.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Yes I will wear one this year although I haven't in the past.

 

[Haroon786]

I respect the bravery and acheivements of the past, I don't feel that there is a need to visually present this.

 

[Space Cat]

I respect the bravery and acheivements of the past, I don't feel that there is a need to visually present this.

For me its the donation i pay to buy the poppy more than the actual wearing of it.

 

[Haroon786]

For me its the donation i pay to buy the poppy more than the actual wearing of it.

I hope it isn't offensive, but that sounds a bit petty.

 

[Square Drive]

No, although I have in the past.

 

[Space Cat]

I hope it isn't offensive, but that sounds a bit petty.

I do find that offensive actually.

Enlighten me why you think donating to charity is "a bit petty"?

 

[James]

I wear one every year and I think it's really important.

 

[Haroon786]

I do find that offensive actually.

Enlighten me why you think donating to charity is "a bit petty"?

I though you said that the cost of it dissuades you from buying it, hence my post, maybe I misunderstood.

 

[Space Cat]

I though you said that the cost of it dissuades you from buying it, hence my post, maybe I misunderstood.

I think you must have.

I meant i always buy one every year but for me the donation is more important than wearing the poppy. I still wear it though.

I've attended many dawn services through school and as an adult. I once got to meet WW2 hero Charles Upham when i was about 6 years old. I can't really remember it well but its a special moment of my life.

ANZAC day is a very special day for many NZers. We are only a small nation but we played a major role in both world wars at a heavy cost.

 

[Haroon786]

I think you must have.

I meant i always buy one every year but for me the donation is more important than wearing the poppy. I still wear it though.

I've attended many dawn services through school and as an adult. I once got to meet WW2 hero Charles Upham when i was about 6 years old. I can't really remember it well but its a special moment of my life.

ANZAC day is a very special day for many NZers. We are only a small nation but we played a major role in both world wars at a heavy cost.

I'm glad I have, anyway thanks for the context, shocking how little praised smaller countries are in regards to the success of WW2.

 

[KingKhanWC]

I wear one every year and I think it's really important.

Why?

 

[KingKhanWC]

I do find that offensive actually.

Enlighten me why you think donating to charity is "a bit petty"?

How about donating the money to the victims of war?

The government should take of it's soldiers, if it doesn't that should tell you a lot.

Wearing the poppy isn't only about WW1 and WW2 it's about supporting those who fought/fight in wars in the past, present and the future.

The fact is the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan are criminal, terrorist acts which cannot be supported in any way. The soldiers today also have a choice of not taking part and many have done so.

 

[Space Cat]

How about donating the money to the victims of war?

The government should take of it's soldiers, if it doesn't that should tell you a lot.

Wearing the poppy isn't only about WW1 and WW2 it's about supporting those who fought/fight in wars in the past, present and the future.

The fact is the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan are criminal, terrorist acts which cannot be supported in any way. The soldiers today also have a choice of not taking part and many have done so.

I do.

It does.

No sh!t.

Nothing to do with NZ.

Bye.

 

[KingKhanWC]

I do.

It does.

No sh!t.

Nothing to do with NZ.

Bye.

No nothing do with NZ apart from them sending troops to invade and occupy Afghanistan.

You are a great example of the sheep like ignorance of those who wear the poppy in order to 'fit in' and 'belong'.

 

[Pakz]

No nothing do with NZ apart from them sending troops to invade and occupy Afghanistan.

You are a great example of the sheep like ignorance of those who wear the poppy in order to 'fit in' and 'belong'.

I have a question would you observe silence that happens for respect each year? If not why not?

 

[Space Cat]

No nothing do with NZ apart from them sending troops to invade and occupy Afghanistan.

You are a great example of the sheep like ignorance of those who wear the poppy in order to 'fit in' and 'belong'.

Peacekeepers with UN not an invasion force. To be honest i would rather they weren't sent. I'm glad the refugees we took in are happy with the new life we provided them at the cost of the taxpayer. I guess you think they should go back and be beheaded.

You are great example of a boring contrarian who constantly spouts unoriginal rubbish. On a cricket forum lmao.

 

[kingusama92]

I do.

Just a way to respect the soldiers who have put their lives on the line in the past.

 

[Space Cat]

Wear the poppy to fit in. Highly insulting.

Members of my family fought in WW2 to protect their homeland.

Edit removed insult (seen red for a minute)

 

[KingKhanWC]

I have a question would you observe silence that happens for respect each year? If not why not?

No.

A few reasons.

1. There have been many wars and conflicts. People from all parts have fought bravely against tyrants, occupiers, aggressors. I don't feel it's right to remember some and not others. Why not remember the brave resistance in Fallujah or the heriocs of Sarajevo against the Serbs?

2. The remembrance and silence is for all soldiers who have fought for the British since WW1. Many of these people have gone to war in a aggressive manner, it's impossible to know if all are hero's or villains as many soldiers are villains.

3. This helps promote more wars rather than learning the lessons and stopping conflicts.

4. It's helps the propaganda which suggests the UK are still the good guys in terms of foreign policy when obviously this isn't the case.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Peacekeepers with UN not an invasion force. To be honest i would rather they weren't sent. I'm glad the refugees we took in are happy with the new life we provided them at the cost of the taxpayer. I guess you think they should go back and be beheaded.

You are great example of a boring contrarian who constantly spouts unoriginal rubbish. On a cricket forum lmao.

Peacekeepers lol

Did the Afghans invite them to keep this peace?

The Afghans certainly don't think they are coming with their guns to keep peace which is why they have been attacked and some killed.

But according to you the Afghan war has nothing do with NZ. lol

 

[ElRaja]

2. The remembrance and silence is for all soldiers who have fought for the British since WW1. Many of these people have gone to war in a aggressive manner, it's impossible to know if all are hero's or villains as many soldiers are villains.

youve raised this point a few times and it irks me, as someone who has spoken candidly to family members about wars they fought in (pak army) the simplification of fighters being either heroes or villains is far to crude for something as nuanced as taking the decision to kill people on the asking of others.

most soldiers are acutely aware of the moral tight rope they tread between honouring their pledge to serve an army to which they belong and their own judgement about the justification of the action they are undertaking.

its easy to simply assume all soldiers are war mongering grunts when its far from the case, but we cannot forget its not the soldiers who decide who to fight.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Wear the poppy to fit in. Highly insulting.

Members of my family fought in WW2 to protect their homeland.

But please do give more details on the members of your family who fought to protect their homeland. Do you mean NZ or India? What did they do?

 

[Haroon786]

Yes I have been wearing the poppy at school on Thursday and Friday and will do so again in the Remembrance assembly tommorow.

 

[Space Cat]

Peacekeepers lol

Did the Afghans invite them to keep this peace?

The Afghans certainly don't think they are coming with their guns to keep peace which is why they have been attacked and some killed.

But according to you the Afghan war has nothing do with NZ. lol

Its a minimal force (23 personal currently) to help provide security in a region recovering from war. Shouldn't have had to go but the mess was not created by us.

 

[KingKhanWC]

youve raised this point a few times and it irks me, as someone who has spoken candidly to family members about wars they fought in (pak army) the simplification of fighters being either heroes or villains is far to crude for something as nuanced as taking the decision to kill people on the asking of others.

most soldiers are acutely aware of the moral tight rope they tread between honouring their pledge to serve an army to which they belong and their own judgement about the justification of the action they are undertaking.

its easy to simply assume all soldiers are war mongering grunts when its far from the case, but we cannot forget its not the soldiers who decide who to fight.

Firstly the soldiers can decide whether or not to fight in any war. Many soldiers have spoken up against the unjust actions of their governments and refused to part of such aggression. This is heroic not killing people when you know they are no danger to you.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/z3nLevZeRAs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


It's impossible to know how many of those who join the army to fight wars are morally thoughtful when it comes to taking part in their occupation or aggression. What we do know is far too many have tortured & brutally killed people with many more stories coming out such as the marine who was found guilty of murder this week. If he wasn't exposed and died this chap would have been seen as hero with you remembering him for something he wasn't.

War often brings out the bad in people. To assume because they are western soldiers they are hero's is just foolish thinking.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Its a minimal force (23 personal currently) to help provide security in a region recovering from war. Shouldn't have had to go but the mess was not created by us.

Unlucky for you I keep up with the news.

Phil Goff who you should know well has recently spoken out against NZ's role in Afghanistan. He believes the NZ role being played out isn't as it should have been. The guy doesn't deserve a gold star for this, any role with a gun while you are part of an occupation isn't about keeping the peace.

 

[Space Cat]

Sitting behind a keyboard and calling others cowards isn't very intelligent.

But please do give more details on the members of your family who fought to protect their homeland. Do you mean NZ or India? What did they do?

I took it back. But sitting is what you do best isn't it? crying foul over all these injustices and doing little.

Of course NZ.

My great great great uncle died at Gallipoli. 18 years old.

Great uncles on my mothers side fought in WW2 in the Maori Battalion.

 

[Saqs]

How about donating the money to the victims of war?

The government should take of it's soldiers, if it doesn't that should tell you a lot.

Wearing the poppy isn't only about WW1 and WW2 it's about supporting those who fought/fight in wars in the past, present and the future.

The fact is the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan are criminal, terrorist acts which cannot be supported in any way. The soldiers today also have a choice of not taking part and many have done so.

Bro I can understand your hatred of the other foreign troops invading these countries but seriously, NZ are probably the most neutral of all nations besides Canada. You really can't say a bad word about them. Their PM out rightly refused to send troops when Australia were so keen on impressing the States to join the coalition of the willing against whatever dreamt up axis of evil there was.

 

[Space Cat]

Unlucky for you I keep up with the news.

Phil Goff who you should know well has recently spoken out against NZ's role in Afghanistan. He believes the NZ role being played out isn't as it should have been. The guy doesn't deserve a gold star for this, any role with a gun while you are part of an occupation isn't about keeping the peace.

You mean you just googled it lol.

I know him well alright. Worst labour party leader probably ever. So unpopular he quit politics.

Good try.

 

[KingKhanWC]

I took it back. But sitting is what you do best isn't it? crying foul over all these injustices and doing little.

Of course NZ.

My great great great uncle died at Gallipoli. 18 years old.

Great uncles on my mothers side fought in WW2 in the Maori Battalion.

Speaking up against injustices is far better than blindly supporting current injustice just because one of your ancestors died fighting the bad guys.

As for Gallipoli the British wanted to take Constantinople from the Turks and used it's foot soldiers from various nations such as NZ and Australia who failed in the particular battle. It wasn't the best military move.

 

[Space Cat]

Bro I can understand your hatred of the other foreign troops invading these countries but seriously, NZ are probably the most neutral of all nations besides Canada. You really can't say a bad word about them. Their PM out rightly refused to send troops when Australia were so keen on impressing the States to join the coalition of the willing against whatever dreamt up axis of evil there was.

Thank you.

NZ should never be grouped with the US. We threw away our close ties with them in the 80s by banning all nuclear warships from our waters. A ban that continues at the present.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Bro I can understand your hatred of the other foreign troops invading these countries but seriously, NZ are probably the most neutral of all nations besides Canada. You really can't say a bad word about them. Their PM out rightly refused to send troops when Australia were so keen on impressing the States to join the coalition of the willing against whatever dreamt up axis of evil there was.

Sure. I was merely pointing out the posters delusion his nation has nothing to do with Afghanistan.

You mean you just googled it lol.

I know him well alright. Worst labour party leader probably ever. So unpopular he quit politics.

Good try.

It was in the news recently.

It doesn't matter who he is, the point is you are in some sort of denial thinking the NZ troops out in Afghanistan are washing the streets with rose water and keeping babies from crying. They are part of the occupation forces.

You want to wear a red plastic flower, go ahead but at least understand the politics behind war.

 

[ElRaja]

Firstly the soldiers can decide whether or not to fight in any war. Many soldiers have spoken up against the unjust actions of their governments and refused to part of such aggression. This is heroic not killing people when you know they are no danger to you.

no doubt it takes courage to stand for what you believe in, but you cannot assume all those who came to a different conclusion regarding where their moral responsibility lay did so without thinking.

What we do know is far too many have tortured & brutally killed people with many more stories coming out such as the marine who was found guilty of murder this week. If he wasn't exposed and died this chap would have been seen as hero with you remembering him for something he wasn't.

in your own words

It's impossible to know how many of those who join the army to fight wars are morally thoughtful when it comes to taking part in their occupation or aggression.

so then why tar the soldiers of the entire armed forces with the shameful actions of the minority.

War often brings out the bad in people. To assume because they are western soldiers they are hero's is just foolish thinking.

exactly, thats why i respect the soldiers who are willing to fight for britain exactly like i respect those who choose to fight for pakistan, regardless of the morally questionable actions either have been asked to carry out by their commanders.

 

[Space Cat]

Speaking up against injustices is far better than blindly supporting current injustice just because one of your ancestors died fighting the bad guys.

As for Gallipoli the British wanted to take Constantinople from the Turks and used it's foot soldiers from various nations such as NZ and Australia who failed in the particular battle. It wasn't the best military move.

Churchill sent our boys to slaughter in impossible terrain. While the English troops waited down on the beach.

Credit to the Turks who have allowed a memorial at the site.

 

[Space Cat]

Sure. I was merely pointing out the posters delusion his nation has nothing to do with Afghanistan.



It was in the news recently.

It doesn't matter who he is, the point is you are in some sort of denial thinking the NZ troops out in Afghanistan are washing the streets with rose water and keeping babies from crying. They are part of the occupation forces.

You want to wear a red plastic flower, go ahead but at least understand the politics behind war.

In the overall theater of the conflict our small security force has very little significance. Also the offset of NZ providing homes and jobs 94 Afghani refugees from the region. We have many other Afghani refugees from the past as well. I even work with some of them.

So ill rephrase. We don't have nothing to do with Afghanistan. We've helped a tiny bit.

 

[KingKhanWC]

no doubt it takes courage to stand for what you believe in, but you cannot assume all those who came to a different conclusion regarding where their moral responsibility lay did so without thinking.

Most probably do think but they have the choice of whether to take part in an aggressive war. If you're suggesting they have thought so it's o.k, it's not.

in your own words



so then why tar the soldiers of the entire armed forces with the shameful actions of the minority.

The armed forces are involved in an occupation ,this is not tarring anyone but reality. It may be hard to understand this sitting in London but if Chinese troops suddenly knocked your door with guns then you may get a small sense of what's it's like.

I know serving soldiers too, they are not bad people. I'm not tarring the whole armed services for the actions of some. The point is we have masses of evidence from various sources including leaks which show a large number of western soldiers have been involved in war crimes. Often these crimes are a deliberate tactic of the armed forces. It's not one or two but many many incidents and I assume the majority have not even been exposed. But I guess you don't find it difficult to call them hero's since you support the armed forces in general because they are laying their lives for you or perhaps a bit of oil too.

exactly, thats why i respect the soldiers who are willing to fight for britain exactly like i respect those who choose to fight for pakistan, regardless of the morally questionable actions either have been asked to carry out by their commanders.

The poppy situation has no comparison to what happens in Pakistan because it's an old political ritual for specific purposes one of which is to uphold the belief the UK and it's allies the US(others) are the good guys. This is simply not the case. Pakistan has a defence day where specific actions are praised.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Churchill sent our boys to slaughter in impossible terrain. While the English troops waited down on the beach.

Credit to the Turks who have allowed a memorial at the site.

In the overall theater of the conflict our small security force has very little significance. Also the offset of NZ providing homes and jobs 94 Afghani refugees from the region. We have many other Afghani refugees from the past as well. I even work with some of them.

So ill rephrase. We don't have nothing to do with Afghanistan. We've helped a tiny bit.

You see this is the problem. It's been a hundred years since your relatives were killed following the British policy and it still continues where NZ troops are dying because NZ must continue to part of the 'western alliance'. NZ should never been involved in war, it has nothing to benefit from. I would assume the majority of Afghani's don't even know where NZ is yet it sends men with guns to their land.

One of the reasons the above continues because people still feel the need to wear the poppy and join this alliance of feeling good but in reality are being used as conditioned assets so the future wars can take place without these masses thinking for themselves and speaking up.

 

[ElRaja]

Most probably do think but they have the choice of whether to take part in an aggressive war. If you're suggesting they have thought so it's o.k, it's not.

no im suggesting the choice between your own judgement of what is right and your duty towards your fellow soldiers and comanders is no where near as easy to make as you suggest. its not a soldiers job to make political decisions therefore you cannot hold them responsible in choosing to follow orders.

I know serving soldiers too, they are not bad people. I'm not tarring the whole armed services for the actions of some. The point is we have masses of evidence from various sources including leaks which show a large number of western soldiers have been involved in war crimes. Often these crimes are a deliberate tactic of the armed forces. It's not one or two but many many incidents and I assume the majority have not even been exposed.

secrecy and cover ups within the armed forces are a problem, esp with relation to torture but im glad to see you agree with my initial point that the conflicts soldiers are involved in are not reflective of the people themselves.

But I guess you don't find it difficult to call them hero's since you support the armed forces in general because they are laying their lives for you or perhaps a bit of oil too.

i dont think i used the term hero, if anything i said terms like hero and villain are an over simplification.

The poppy situation has no comparison to what happens in Pakistan because it's an old political ritual for specific purposes one of which is to uphold the belief the UK and it's allies the US(others) are the good guys. This is simply not the case. Pakistan has a defence day where specific actions are praised.

i was simply addressing your insinuation that my respect for the british armed forces is based on double standards because the british army are a western army.

 

[Robert]

I will be wearing one this year, primary because I've got to go to a remembrance march this year, what about you guys

Always, as a nod to the Forces people who died or were maimed or driven mad so that I can live in a decent country.

 

[Robert]

Churchill sent our boys to slaughter in impossible terrain. While the English troops waited down on the beach.

We should de-mystify this a bit.

A bit rough to blame Churchill. He had a good plan which was badly executed by the local senior officers. Had the Admiral not bottled it and withdrawn his capital ships because one of them ships struck a mine, the ANZACS would have had massive artillery support from the sea and would have probably have taken their objective.

Also, while the ANZACS fought like lions, the English and Welsh took as many casualties in that campaign.

 

[Sachin85]

How about donating the money to the victims of war?

The government should take of it's soldiers, if it doesn't that should tell you a lot.

Wearing the poppy isn't only about WW1 and WW2 it's about supporting those who fought/fight in wars in the past, present and the future.

The fact is the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan are criminal, terrorist acts which cannot be supported in any way. The soldiers today also have a choice of not taking part and many have done so.

What about taxes? The taxes collected by the government go towards funding the army as well.

Do you pay your taxes?

What about the role of the Pakistani government and army in supporting the ongoing war in Afghanistan? Are the Pakistani army men involved "villains" according to you?

 

[Convict]

You see this is the problem. It's been a hundred years since your relatives were killed following the British policy and it still continues where NZ troops are dying because NZ must continue to part of the 'western alliance'. NZ should never been involved in war, it has nothing to benefit from. I would assume the majority of Afghani's don't even know where NZ is yet it sends men with guns to their land.

One of the reasons the above continues because people still feel the need to wear the poppy and join this alliance of feeling good but in reality are being used as conditioned assets so the future wars can take place without these masses thinking for themselves and speaking up.

Just to point out but New Zealand did not take part.

Attack the USA, the UK and Australia if you want for Afghanistan and Iraq but not New Zealand.

 

[Markhor]

No I don't wear it but certainly mark the occasion. Find it extraordinary how the bustling streets in 2013 comes to a total halt for one minute every year on this date. You get some people who pull over on the motorway to pay their respects.

WWI was an utterly futile exercise between the imperial powers who recruited millions of ordinary, working-class young men who died in the name of 'patriotism' - what a scourge nationalism is.

Why not remember the brave resistance in Fallujah or the heriocs of Sarajevo against the Serbs?

In Britain ?

Certainly the Sarajevo resistance and all those who fought against the genocidal, hideous Serb army deserve to be remembered, in Bosnia. The Fallujah fighters will be remembered in Iraq.

Its OK for other countries to remember their fallen but not OK for British people to commemorate the dead British soldiers ?

 

[endymion248]

Of course, everyone should wear one. It's these kind of incentives of patriotism, remembrance and eternal glory, as well as financial advantages and, maybe, hope of rise in the hierarchy that lead thousands of perfectly sane youngsters to serve, or carry the task with a decent moral if they had no choice, as cannon fodders in defense of the nation.

 

[Robert]

WWI was an utterly futile exercise between the imperial powers who recruited millions of ordinary, working-class young men who died in the name of 'patriotism' - what a scourge nationalism is.

Aye.

And inevitable, after the imperial powers ran out of new territory to conquer.

 

[Robert]

Of course, everyone should wear one. It's these kind of incentives of patriotism, remembrance and eternal glory, as well as financial advantages and, maybe, hope of rise in the hierarchy that lead thousands of perfectly sane youngsters to serve, or carry the task with a decent moral if they had no choice, as cannon fodders in defense of the nation.

Second case - yes. First and third cases - emphatic no.

 

[James]

Observed the 2 minutes silence today. Everyone at work did in fact.

I hope the person on Facebook, a friend of mine, who came up with this post, doesn't mind me sharing it here. If he does check PakPassion (unlikely!) I am sure that he will see this and that I will get a bashing. But I had to do it anyway. It's the best summation and argument I've seen of the situation this year.

Why did I wear my poppy? Freedom, was the short answer. The exposition would run thus; because I believe that every person has a right to worship, believe, live as they want, without harming others. Because, I think we should remember the people who give their lives in our stead, that we might live in ideological safety. And not just remebering the "British" Armed forces which include(d), the Canadians, the ANZACs, the West Indians, the Indians, the Africans, the Irish and the Gurkhas (amongst others). But also remembering those Germans, Italians, Japanese, Argentinians, Afghanis and Iraqis who died for an ideology that was not their own. It is easy to say you are right when you 'win'. But, I for one would rather live in a society where you can disagree with me, up to a point of disrespect, and not fear for your life, than the alternative; which would persecute/enslave/murder you for your religion, sexual preference, heritage or race. So yeah, stare, judge, disagree if you want, just remember that the reasons I wear it, ensure that you can.

 

[ElRaja]

nice summation james

 

[Andrew Hughes]

This is why I am ambivalent about poppy wearing. It is a phenomenon that has several layers of meaning. It seems that each generation invents its own, although it is increasingly becoming a sign of patriotism, which is a grotesque distortion of the meaning of Armistice Day.

If people want to wear it because they think it represents a struggle against the forces of tyranny, and they feel that genuinely, then so be it. That is hardly a sentiment to be condemned. I just don't see how you can read that into poppy wearing.

It began after the First World War, which was hardly a war fought for Liberal Democracy against tyranny and repression, and it came from a poem that glorifies war as a field of noble struggle and sacrifice. The poem is the antithesis of what Wilfred Owen wrote about, it has more in common with that famous poster of Lord Kitchener, it is a recruiting poem, not an indictment of war, it illustrates perfectly that desperately sad naivety that led so many millions to their deaths.

The lesson of the First World War is that war is not a glorious struggle, it is not an opportunity for people to become heroes, and it is not a chance to march up and down waving flags: it is a barbaric, stupid, desperate, horrific failure of humanity.

The minutes silence on Armistice Day recognises this, which is why I still observe it. This is a tradition instigated by King George at the end of the First World War, and it is a sombre occasion, as it should be; in fact this should be a day of mourning, a day on which everyone remembers how horrific and wicked war is.

The poppy is entirely separate to Armistice Day and I don't wear one, precisely because of its ambivalence.

 

[Robert]

This is why I am ambivalent about poppy wearing. It is a phenomenon that has several layers of meaning. It seems that each generation invents its own, although it is increasingly becoming a sign of patriotism, which is a grotesque distortion of the meaning of Armistice Day.
The poppy is entirely separate to Armistice Day and I don't wear one, precisely because of its ambivalence.

Actually, it's the symbol of the Haig Fund which began in 1921 in order to raise money for wounded ex-servicemen and their families.

The Haig Fund has since become inextricable from Armistice Day because most fundraising takes place is in the week or two leading up to 11 November.

 

[Andrew Hughes]

Indeed, but that wasn't the first use of the poppy.

It was first worn by an American woman, Moina Michael, who wrote a dreadful poem along the lines of John McCrae's 'In Flanders Fields'. It was full of stuff about heroes, valour, and passing the torch on etc.

She wore it as a symbol of remembrance. Like any symbol, it can have many meanings attached to it. Practically, it was the emblem chosen by the Haig fund, but as this thread shows, it means different things to different people. Judging by the quote James posted, some people even manage to see it as a representation of freedom and liberal democracy.

There's nothing wrong with raising money for service people, or even having a national Armed Services day. I just think Armistice Day should be about remembering the horror of war, entirely separate from honouring/celebrating/raising money for the army.

 

[Robert]

There's nothing wrong with raising money for service people, or even having a national Armed Services day. I just think Armistice Day should be about remembering the horror of war, entirely separate from honouring/celebrating/raising money for the army.

Not the Army / RN / RAF, but the people who were in it.

 

[chacha kashmiri]

Observed the 2 minutes silence today. Everyone at work did in fact.

I hope the person on Facebook, a friend of mine, who came up with this post, doesn't mind me sharing it here. If he does check PakPassion (unlikely!) I am sure that he will see this and that I will get a bashing. But I had to do it anyway. It's the best summation and argument I've seen of the situation this year.

In short the post you quoted lambasts fascism
but the cult for wearing poppies and of talking against it is exactly as he describes the reasons of what would have happened had the world wars not taken place

But, I for one would rather live in a society where you can disagree with me, up to a point of disrespect,

I'm really glad i missed the monotonous, recurring annual debate this year...

pakistan and england are equally in love with their armed forces but i'm not sure in which country you you would get hated on and abused more for not supporting the w.o.t

 

[Gabbar Singh]

It's that time of year again. And this year we have a 'poppy hijab' - it has got a lot of people talking.

Tbh I get the feeling that Armistice Day has become very commercial now - we have poppy brooches, poppy lapel pins, poppy cuff links, poppy necklaces etc etc. And now the hijab.

A fashion designer from London has decided to mark 100 years since the first Muslim soldier was awarded the Victoria Cross for bravery in the First World War - by creating a special "poppy hijab".

Tabinda-Kauser Ishaq, a 24-year-old final year student at the University of Arts, has been working with integration think tank British Future and the Islamic Society of Britain to try and come up with an idea to raise money for the Poppy Appeal.

It also aims to celebrate the contribution of Muslims to UK society.

BBC Asian Network's Athar Ahmad joined the designer and her models for the launch of the hijab.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29832912

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

No, but apparently there are mosques that are encouraging poppy wearing this year to promote a better image. Which is fine by me, since I try to avoid mosques for the most part anyway.

One year on and this answer pretty much still holds up.

 

[Mo_Ahmed84]

Do i wear them? No i feel it looks stupid. I do pay the donation and have no problem with others wearing it. My girlfriend wears one every year without fail. Both British-Pakistani muslims.

 

[Robert]

Wonderful.

 

[filthyfulltoss]

that picture belongs in a women's health brochure

 

[Taarabt]

Hmm... this picture just reeks of " I am sorry for everything, and If I wear this do I fit in?."

I use to wear a poppy, in respect those who died in the WW.

Ever since the sending of troops to Afg and Iraq, it is harder to wear poppy. If I wear it am I condoning it?

Soldiers just follow orders, but it is sad as the douche Kissinger said, they are just used as pawns in foreign policy.

 

[filthyfulltoss]

Hmm... this picture just reeks of " I am sorry for everything, and If I wear this do I fit in?."

You could say that for just about anything mainstream society does...

Why is it always the minority vs the majority? Or Islam vs the West? Why can't these women just be engaging in the cultural practices of their nation, likely their nation of birth?

This is a rather odd and disappointing mentality.

Just because they are muslim women does not give you the right to extrapolate a generalization of who they are as people, or what they stand for.

 

[Taarabt]

You could say that for just about anything mainstream society does...

Why is it always the minority vs the majority? Or Islam vs the West? Why can't these women just be engaging in the cultural practices of their nation, likely their nation of birth?

This is a rather odd and disappointing mentality.

Just because they are muslim women does not give you the right to extrapolate a generalization of who they are as people, or what they stand for.

It is not just a woman thing. If there was any men wearing the poppy hijab, would say the same thing.

The article was published on the DailyMail urging them to wear the hijab, pretty ironic considering their stance on the hijab and burkha.

More of a way from the Mail to say, Muslims please wear this so we know that you wont run away and be an ISIS bride.

Literally colonising something that is used as a form of worship.

 

[filthyfulltoss]

It is not just a woman thing. If there was any men wearing the poppy hijab, would say the same thing.

The article was published on the DailyMail urging them to wear the hijab, pretty ironic considering their stance on the hijab and burkha.

More of a way from the Mail to say, Muslims please wear this so we know that you wont run away and be an ISIS bride.

Literally colonising something that is used as a form of worship.

So just because the daily mail writes an article it allows them to hijack the entire cause of wearing poppies or poppy hijabs?

That's a mentality we often criticize the West for on here.

 

[Taarabt]

So just because the daily mail writes an article it allows them to hijack the entire cause of wearing poppies or poppy hijabs?

That's a mentality we often criticize the West for on here.

We? Sorry, I did not know that you speak on behalf of PakPassion.

Daily Mail or the Independent, just seems like a test to prove your allegiance.

 

[filthyfulltoss]

We? Sorry, I did not know that you speak on behalf of PakPassion.

Daily Mail or the Independent, just seems like a test to prove your allegiance.

So everytime you see a poppy hijab wearing muslim woman you will think that the message they are getting across is "I am sorry for everything, and If I wear this do I fit in?" just because of articles in the Dailymail and Telegraph?

Don't you think that maybe this is a little unfair?

 

[KingKhanWC]

You could say that for just about anything mainstream society does...

Why is it always the minority vs the majority? Or Islam vs the West? Why can't these women just be engaging in the cultural practices of their nation, likely their nation of birth?

This is a rather odd and disappointing mentality.

Just because they are muslim women does not give you the right to extrapolate a generalization of who they are as people, or what they stand for.

I suggest you watch the video in the link if you can. The designer clearly states her reasons for producing this headscarf. It's a deliberate attempt by her to show Muslims do care and agree with the reasons behind the poppy and to clear misconceptions. She's not just done it as a normal cultural practice, if this was the case she would simply buy one and wear it like everyone else.

Apart from a pretty poor design the apologetic nature of her venture is very disappointing. There are plenty of Non-Muslim, in fact the majority of the nation who don't wear the poppy, they don't donate and don't even observe the 2 minute silence on remembrance day. They don't go out of they to justify why they don't get involved so some Muslims shouldn't either especially on behalf of others who may have no interest.

The only reason the poppy is given so much attention is to influence the minds of people so they feel obliged to support troops even though they know the on-going wars have nothing to do with justice, freedom or heroism but it's a foreign policy of imperialism and hegemony.

 

[filthyfulltoss]

I suggest you watch the video in the link if you can. The designer clearly states her reasons for producing this headscarf. It's a deliberate attempt by her to show Muslims do care and agree with the reasons behind the poppy and to clear misconceptions. She's not just done it as a normal cultural practice, if this was the case she would simply buy one and wear it like everyone else.

Apart from a pretty poor design the apologetic nature of her venture is very disappointing. There are plenty of Non-Muslim, in fact the majority of the nation who don't wear the poppy, they don't donate and don't even observe the 2 minute silence on remembrance day. They don't go out of they to justify why they don't get involved so some Muslims shouldn't either especially on behalf of others who may have no interest.

The only reason the poppy is given so much attention is to influence the minds of people so they feel obliged to support troops even though they know the on-going wars have nothing to do with justice, freedom or heroism but it's a foreign policy of imperialism and hegemony.

And why exactly is it expected that Muslims not express themselves by wearing a poppy or a poppy scarf? Last I checked the religion of 1.5 billion was not homogeneous or monotonous. It's a diverse group of people with distinct perspective on many issues.

I'm a pacifist, and I don't agree with war but I respect other peoples opinion and don't lazily label them as conformists if they happen to disagree with my opinion.

 

[KingKhanWC]

And why exactly is it expected that Muslims not express themselves by wearing a poppy or a poppy scarf? Last I checked the religion of 1.5 billion was not homogeneous or monotonous. It's a diverse group of people with distinct perspective on many issues.

I'm a pacifist, and I don't agree with war but I respect other peoples opinion and don't lazily label them as conformists if they happen to disagree with my opinion.

I don't know whose post you were reading but doesn't seem to be mine.

Muslims or atheists can express themselves by wearing a poppy or anything else, you have the freedom to do so. It is not expected of them not to do so by anyone, don't know where you got this idea from.

My point was if Muslims want to wear a poppy(many do) then just buy one and wear it. On the contrary it is these apologist type Muslims who want other Muslims to conform to their view on how Muslims should live in a Non-Muslim society. They feel all Muslims should openly show their support for the poppy which is laughable because most Non-Muslims don't.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Hmm... this picture just reeks of " I am sorry for everything, and If I wear this do I fit in?."

Yes it does. I am quite disappointed that Robert endorsed this fake apologetic nonsense. Maybe he should postpone his flight to the coasts of Cornwall and fight for mainland Britain instead.

 

[Saqs]

The World loves Muslim apologists. If you're not saying sorry then you condone the acts of the few crazies and should be grouped as part of the crazies.

 

[Thivagar]

Yes I dooo

 

[Robert]

Yes it does. I am quite disappointed that Robert endorsed this fake apologetic nonsense. Maybe he should postpone his flight to the coasts of Cornwall and fight for mainland Britain instead.

What makes you think those ladies are apologising for something Cap? Perhaps they are honouring the sacrifice their ancestors made in the trenches in WW1 or the jungles of Burma in WW2. That's what I see in the picture.

I don't understand your second comment. Cornwall is part of mainland Britain. You can drive there - you don't have to take a flight.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

What makes you think those ladies are apologising for something Cap? Perhaps they are honouring the sacrifice their ancestors made in the trenches in WW1 or the jungles of Burma in WW2. That's what I see in the picture.

I don't understand your second comment. Cornwall is part of mainland Britain. You can drive there - you don't have to take a flight.

Cornwall is a coastal retreat from mainland Britain. it seems like Anglo whites are fleeing from the central strongholds of England and abandoning these areas to immigrants and property developers which I find sad in some ways and understandable in others. If I was given a choice to live in Wembley or Cornwall I think I would make the same choice Rob.

 

[Robert]

Cornwall is a coastal retreat from mainland Britain. it seems like Anglo whites are fleeing from the central strongholds of England and abandoning these areas to immigrants and property developers which I find sad in some ways and understandable in others. If I was given a choice to live in Wembley or Cornwall I think I would make the same choice Rob.

It's to get away from the gridlock, the packed trains, the sirens and pollution, to somewhere with wide spaces and big sky, where it gets properly dark and quiet at night. Some Cornish are insular - they have their own flag and their own language - and Mrs Robert copped a bit of racism there. But is still happens in London too.

But what do you want me to stay in London and fight for? To keep it a bit more Anglo white? Let the Poles and Bangladeshis and Africans and Russian oligarchs have it, life's too short.

Mrs R and I discussed the poppy hijab issue. My view is that women wearing it are paying respect to two traditions, not somehow lessened as Muslims. Surely the poppy headscarfs are a form of self-expression?

I see many young Muslim women in large, colourful headscarfs which appear to be fashion statements. They look lovely.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

It's to get away from the gridlock, the packed trains, the sirens and pollution, to somewhere with wide spaces and big sky, where it gets properly dark and quiet at night. Some Cornish are insular - they have their own flag and their own language - and Mrs Robert copped a bit of racism there. But is still happens in London too.

But what do you want me to stay in London and fight for? To keep it a bit more Anglo white? Let the Poles and Bangladeshis and Africans and Russian oligarchs have it, life's too short.

Mrs R and I discussed the poppy hijab issue. My view is that women wearing it are paying respect to two traditions, not somehow lessened as Muslims. Surely the poppy headscarfs are a form of self-expression?

I see many young Muslim women in large, colourful headscarfs which appear to be fashion statements. They look lovely.

I was just joshing Rob, Cornwall is lovely. I would consider moving there myself but it's a bit too insular and old fashioned for me. Nice place to take a few days break though.