Does India need a shift in policy and mentality, after unearthing their first express Fast Bowler?

cricketjoshila

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With Umran Malik, India has found its first express fast bowler, but they need to change their mentality and policy.

For decades, Indian cricket has been about world Class batsmen and spinners. The mentality has adapted to it and policies have been framed accordingly.

This made the Indian team formidable team at home but lack of quality fast bowlers made them poor travellers. Ofcourse there were quality swing bowlers like Kapil Dev and Zaheer Khan, and a young Srinath was quick, but on the whole the fast bowling scenario was not fast enough.

Umesh Yadav and Varun Aaron were the first to bowl regularly over the 140 kph mark and hit 150 sometimes.

Jasprit Bumrah too would bowl above 140 or 145 kph.

But no one before Umran Malik would bowl at 150 plus KPH regularly. He is undoubtedly India's first express fast bowler and arguably the fastest bowler in the world currently.

A unique player in Indian cricket history has arrived and the cricketing mentality needs to be reshaped and policies needs to be changed accordingly.

The policy of making players play seasons of Ranji and A tours before giving them a international cap wont work here. These things work brilliantly with batsmen and spinners as it lets them mature before coming to the international scene. But this wont work with express fast bowlers.

Umran is 22. He will bowl at his express pace for may be 10-11 years. Some of that will be lost to injuries. So its 9 to 10 years thats the maximum limit. He cannot be wasted in the domestic cricket for 2-3 seasons. I am afraid, he may not get a chance in the playing 11 or if he gets a chance and is expensive in a match he may be discarded for someone like Bhuvi or Patel or Arshdeep. Umran is a wicket taker and not a control bowler. He will provide breakthroughs in the mid overs. He cannot be expected to play the role of a medium pacer. Look at Mohammad Shami, brilliant wicket taking bowler in ODIs but he got sidelined in the 2015 WC for a more controlled Bhuvi. Results were seen in the semis.

Umran should also not get the Siraj treatment. Anyone who has seen Siraj bowl in tests will tell you he is good. But he is already 28 and has played only 12 tests. For years he was made to toil in Ranji trophy and A tours. Discarded after he proved to be expensive in T20s.

There is no dot ball, better than a wicket taking ball. India needs to change its policy of making all players toil in FC matches before playing them in T20s and then waiting years to give them a test cap. This policy doesn't work with even fast bowlers, let alone a express bowler. These policies are fine for Batsmen, Spinners or medium pacers, who have longer careers.

Fast and express bowlers need to be handled differently, they have short careers compared to other bowlers or batsmen. They need to gelled in the national team earlier and will learn on the go.

The recent team selection for the T20Is gives me little confidence that the policy will change.

Selectors selected 5 fast bowlers, 3 of the same medium pace variety. Bhuvi, Arshdeep and Patel. Patel justifies his selection with 18 wickets this season in IPL. He was the highest wicket taker last season. But selecting both Bhuvi and Arshdeep makes no sense,. One has 12 wickets and another 10. They are control bowlers, they fit the policy. Who will take wickets? The onus will invariably fall on the spinners in the middle overs.

I expect India to fail miserably in Australia in the T20 WC should they take such medium pacers there. Their 20 variety of slower balls wont grip on hard true aussie pitches and the ball doesn't swing much either.

Will the policy and mentality change? Only future will tell, but it doesn't look that way.
 
With Umran Malik, India has found its first express fast bowler, but they need to change their mentality and policy.

For decades, Indian cricket has been about world Class batsmen and spinners. The mentality has adapted to it and policies have been framed accordingly.

This made the Indian team formidable team at home but lack of quality fast bowlers made them poor travellers. Ofcourse there were quality swing bowlers like Kapil Dev and Zaheer Khan, and a young Srinath was quick, but on the whole the fast bowling scenario was not fast enough.

Umesh Yadav and Varun Aaron were the first to bowl regularly over the 140 kph mark and hit 150 sometimes.

Jasprit Bumrah too would bowl above 140 or 145 kph.

But no one before Umran Malik would bowl at 150 plus KPH regularly. He is undoubtedly India's first express fast bowler and arguably the fastest bowler in the world currently.

A unique player in Indian cricket history has arrived and the cricketing mentality needs to be reshaped and policies needs to be changed accordingly.

The policy of making players play seasons of Ranji and A tours before giving them a international cap wont work here. These things work brilliantly with batsmen and spinners as it lets them mature before coming to the international scene. But this wont work with express fast bowlers.

Umran is 22. He will bowl at his express pace for may be 10-11 years. Some of that will be lost to injuries. So its 9 to 10 years thats the maximum limit. He cannot be wasted in the domestic cricket for 2-3 seasons. I am afraid, he may not get a chance in the playing 11 or if he gets a chance and is expensive in a match he may be discarded for someone like Bhuvi or Patel or Arshdeep. Umran is a wicket taker and not a control bowler. He will provide breakthroughs in the mid overs. He cannot be expected to play the role of a medium pacer. Look at Mohammad Shami, brilliant wicket taking bowler in ODIs but he got sidelined in the 2015 WC for a more controlled Bhuvi. Results were seen in the semis.

Umran should also not get the Siraj treatment. Anyone who has seen Siraj bowl in tests will tell you he is good. But he is already 28 and has played only 12 tests. For years he was made to toil in Ranji trophy and A tours. Discarded after he proved to be expensive in T20s.

There is no dot ball, better than a wicket taking ball. India needs to change its policy of making all players toil in FC matches before playing them in T20s and then waiting years to give them a test cap. This policy doesn't work with even fast bowlers, let alone a express bowler. These policies are fine for Batsmen, Spinners or medium pacers, who have longer careers.

Fast and express bowlers need to be handled differently, they have short careers compared to other bowlers or batsmen. They need to gelled in the national team earlier and will learn on the go.

The recent team selection for the T20Is gives me little confidence that the policy will change.

Selectors selected 5 fast bowlers, 3 of the same medium pace variety. Bhuvi, Arshdeep and Patel. Patel justifies his selection with 18 wickets this season in IPL. He was the highest wicket taker last season. But selecting both Bhuvi and Arshdeep makes no sense,. One has 12 wickets and another 10. They are control bowlers, they fit the policy. Who will take wickets? The onus will invariably fall on the spinners in the middle overs.

I expect India to fail miserably in Australia in the T20 WC should they take such medium pacers there. Their 20 variety of slower balls wont grip on hard true aussie pitches and the ball doesn't swing much either.

Will the policy and mentality change? Only future will tell, but it doesn't look that way.

Agreed
Biggest example is shoaib Akhtar
He wasted 2 to 3 years in domestic cricket
Should have come earlier and would have taken many more wickets before bogged down by injuries

Express bowlers have at max 5 to 10 best years of cricketing career
 
Agreed
Biggest example is shoaib Akhtar
He wasted 2 to 3 years in domestic cricket
Should have come earlier and would have taken many more wickets before bogged down by injuries

Express bowlers have at max 5 to 10 best years of cricketing career

Can you mail this to Bcci. Will be grateful.
 
BCCI is doing the same with Mohsin lol

Poor team selection. Arshdeep doesn't deserve to be in. 10 wickets @ 38 with economy of 7.7. Bowls mid 130s.

Mohsin Khan, 13 wickets in 8 matches @ 13 with economy of 5.9. bowls mid 140s doesn't get a chance.

My post from the other thread.
 
Poor team selection. Arshdeep doesn't deserve to be in. 10 wickets @ 38 with economy of 7.7. Bowls mid 130s.

Mohsin Khan, 13 wickets in 8 matches @ 13 with economy of 5.9. bowls mid 140s doesn't get a chance.

My post from the other thread.

I expected Mohsin Khan to be in the team. Very poor job by selectors.
 
I think India has been using their pace bowling resources over the last few years pretty well, whether its Bumrah, Shami, Ishant (Couple of good seasons) and others. Umran is quick but, is he ready for the longer formats physically or bowling development wise and basics wise would be the question.

Having an express 150kph bowler wont necessarily require a change in mentality (Which I think has already changed over the last decade, especially under Kohli era) rather change in game plan once the pacer is in the playing xi. Issue with some of the quicks around the world is that they capture the eyes straight away when they are bowling late 140s, 150 kph but, at the end bowling is an art which has multiple dimensions (Especially when it comes to Test cricket and to an extent in ODI cricket), so bowling quick alone is not enough, there are some basics of bowling which should be there.

Also if we look at the history of quality bowling attacks from different teams, one thing we do see is the variety in the style of pace bowlers those attacks had. I can mention quite a few quicker bowlers then some from the below two eras of Australia and SA but, as mentioned having pace is just one aspect of the pace bowling. Its important and rare but, there has to be more depth to it than meets the eye to perform consistently over the years.

Aussies 2000s

Mcgrath (Tall, deadly accurate, used to seam it both ways, used to get natural bounce with his height)
Lee (150kph, used to get natural outswing and could act as enforcer with older ball, reverse swing)
Gillispie (Tall, accurate, used to extract that extra bounce with that high arm action, decent with reverse)

SA 2010s

Steyn (145kph, deadly oustswinger along with the ability to straighten it with seam, ability to reverse the older ball)
Philander (Pin point accurate and seamed the ball both ways)
Morkel (140-45 kph, really tall and used to get that extra zip and bounce)

A bowling attack of Wasim, Asif and Akhtar or Waqar(In his peak) would have dismantled more batting lineups and would have won more matches then 3 Akhtrars or 3 Lees kind of bowlers playing for one team I believe. Its difficult to encounter different kind of quality threats in a match rather then 3 same kind of quality bowlers.

While 150 kph bowlers surely are a good watch and if they are complete in other skills department then nothing like it but, that is rarely a case. So you do need an enforcer who can generate something which other bowlers cant but, no point in playing 3 really quick bowlers for the pace only, if they are in similar mold with similar shortcomings. India' last win in Australia just manifests the same that basics of the bowling and tactics come first, if you can have someone who can do it with pace then thats good but you cant ignore the basics for the sake of the pace.

As a Pak fan who has seen few Pakistani express pacers over the years and the fascination the cricket culture in Pakistan has for the pace, I can surely say its a tendency that one can get bit carried away with. Yes if you want excitement and thrill, nothing like extra pace but if you want more results in favor of your team then as mentioned you need decent combination/variety in bowling attack along with the basics to support the game, if that's with pace then nothing like it. so I personally wont recommend the change in mentality, keep the basics of the game first and then welcome the pace with it.
 
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I think India has been using their pace bowling resources over the last few years pretty well, whether its Bumrah, Shami, Ishant (Couple of good seasons) and others. Umran is quick but, is he ready for the longer formats physically or bowling development wise and basics wise would be the question.

Having an express 150kph bowler wont necessarily require a change in mentality (Which I think has already changed over the last decade, especially under Kohli era) rather change in game plan once the pacer is in the playing xi. Issue with some of the quicks around the world is that they capture the eyes straight away when they are bowling late 140s, 150 kph but, at the end bowling is an art which has multiple dimensions (Especially when it comes to Test cricket and to an extent in ODI cricket), so bowling quick alone is not enough, there are some basics of bowling which should be there.

Also if we look at the history of quality bowling attacks from different teams, one thing we do see is the variety in the style of pace bowlers those attacks had. I can mention quite a few quicker bowlers then some from the below two eras of Australia and SA but, as mentioned having pace is just one aspect of the pace bowling. Its important and rare but, there has to be more depth to it than meets the eye to perform consistently over the years.

Aussies 2000s

Mcgrath (Tall, deadly accurate, used to seam it both ways, used to get natural bounce with his height)
Lee (150kph, used to get natural outswing and could act as enforcer with older ball, reverse swing)
Gillispie (Tall, accurate, used to extract that extra bounce with that high arm action, decent with reverse)

SA 2010s

Steyn (145kph, deadly oustswinger along with the ability to straighten it with seam, ability to reverse the older ball)
Philander (Pin point accurate and seamed the ball both ways)
Morkel (140-45 kph, really tall and used to get that extra zip and bounce)

A bowling attack of Wasim, Asif and Akhtar or Waqar(In his peak) would have dismantled more batting lineups and would have won more matches then 3 Akhtrars or 3 Lees kind of bowlers playing for one team I believe. Its difficult to encounter different kind of quality threats in a match rather then 3 same kind of quality bowlers.

While 150 kph bowlers surely are a good watch and if they are complete in other skills department then nothing like it but, that is rarely a case. So you do need an enforcer who can generate something which other bowlers cant but, no point in playing 3 really quick bowlers for the pace only, if they are in similar mold with similar shortcomings. India' last win in Australia just manifests the same that basics of the bowling and tactics come first, if you can have someone who can do it with pace then thats good but you cant ignore the basics for the sake of the pace.

As a Pak fan who has seen few Pakistani express pacers over the years and the fascination the cricket culture in Pakistan has for the pace, I can surely say its a tendency that one can get bit carried away with. Yes if you want excitement and thrill, nothing like extra pace but if you want more results in favor of your team then as mentioned you need decent combination/variety in bowling attack along with the basics to support the game, if that's with pace then nothing like it. so I personally wont recommend the change in mentality, keep the basics of the game first and then welcome the pace with it.

Yes indias test attack is top quality. Really impressed with prasidh and tyagi. Great bench. Probably best attack in the world along with Aussies.

However,their loi attack sucks. Partly due to selection.

For some reason many underrate England's old attack of Harmison Jones Flintoff and Hoggard. I that as a unit it was a terrific attack.
 
End of the road for Umran and Arshdeep? Ganguly confirms Dravid’s plans ahead of ICC T20 World Cup

India have been playing young players in T20Is, but the experiment will end after the Ireland series.

Sourav Ganguly has confirmed the development. The ongoing series between India and South Africa is being played without Virat Kohli, Rohit Sharma, Jasprit Bumrah, KL Rahul and a couple of more big names.

Even the squad for the Ireland series is filled with the newly inducted cricketers. Hardik Pandya is the team’s captain, with Bhuvneshwar Kumar as his deputy.

But with white-ball matches in England, the selectors and the team management will only include players who are likely to play in Australia.

“Rahul Dravid is planning to play a settled set of players. Probably from the England tour next month, we will start playing with players who are likely to represent the team in the ICC T20 World Cup,” Ganguly told TOI.

https://crictoday.com/cricket/daily...rms-dravids-plans-ahead-of-icc-t20-world-cup/
 
I think it's only a matter of time before Umran breaks Akhtar's record. Proper guiding, diet, work-load will make sure he will touch 160 and can even get upto 161-163.
 
Yes indias test attack is top quality. Really impressed with prasidh and tyagi. Great bench. Probably best attack in the world along with Aussies.

However,their loi attack sucks. Partly due to selection.

For some reason many underrate England's old attack of Harmison Jones Flintoff and Hoggard. I that as a unit it was a terrific attack.

LoI attack sucks because the belief is stop runs wickets dont matter. This worked 5-8 years back.

Now teams know that they will score 100 in last 10 if they have wickets. BK pr Patel have only two deliveries, yorker or slower balls. Hence if their slower balls don't grip they are easy to line up and hit.

I am afraid the team management is stuck in the past. While all other teams have learnt that these 10 types of slower ball bowling bowlers don't work, India is still continuing.
 
I think it's only a matter of time before Umran breaks Akhtar's record. Proper guiding, diet, work-load will make sure he will touch 160 and can even get upto 161-163.

Where will he break the record? In dreams?

Matches to khelega nahi.
 
Fast bowlers are prone to injuries.He is not going to last long. Wood and Archer are good examples.
 
He will get his chance eventually. And he can still bowl 160+ in domestic cricket, udhar tou khelta hai na

He never bowled 160+. Don't recall anyone bowling 160+ except Akhtar.
 
I think it's only a matter of time before Umran breaks Akhtar's record. Proper guiding, diet, work-load will make sure he will touch 160 and can even get upto 161-163.

Khudda ka khauf kar

163kmh? This isn’t a Warner bros movie
 
He never bowled 160+. Don't recall anyone bowling 160+ except Akhtar.

My english is poor, I meant he will get to a point where he can bowl 160+ if he continues working hard.
 
Khudda ka khauf kar

163kmh? This isn’t a Warner bros movie

Khuda ka khauf hamesha rehna chahye. Baqi rah gay Umran ki pace ki baat, yeh ab waqt hi bata sakey ga. Dekhtay hain.
 
He will get his chance eventually. And he can still bowl 160+ in domestic cricket, udhar tou khelta hai na

J and K doesn't play him. The only place he plays is IPL.

Dravid is a orthodox coach with a antiquated mindset, he will never select players with flair like Umran. He will play avg run of the mill players like patel bhuvi etc. And the biggest problem is that no one will question him because he is Dravid.

Mark my words, India will do poorly in the T20 WC. And if no changes are made they will do poorly in the 2023 WC as well. I am shocked that the bowling attack since 2019 WC is the same. Bumrah Bhuvi Shami Yuzi....No change. Tells you how stupid the selection is and how pathetic the team management is.

One of the reasons for India's win in 2011 WC was that Dhoni realized in 2007, during the T20WC that team needs young faces to perform.

Here same old TTFs are playing.
 
Lol.

Lee has bowled the most deliveries above 160k. Then Tait. Then Akhtar and Starc.

Then Thomson.

Starc fastest is 159.

Lee bowled once at 161 vs Windies but it was noted later than the readings were incorrect. Outside that he only bowled over 160 once vs NZ.

Tait might have bowled at max a couple of deliveries above 160.

It is very rare as I said.
 
Again wrong.


http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...o has bowled most 160&p=10745483#post10745483

Read this thread.

Lee has crossed 160 5 times.

Starc bowled 160 vs NZ in a test.

A key stat also to look at is how often did Lee bowl in stadiums which had an official speed guns.
Akhter likely played in stadiums without official speed gun. His fasted delivery was recorded in England as well.
If they are accepted unofficial speed guns in Pak, Sami also comes into play lol

Since Lee had more access to Official Speed Gun, then he is also more likely to record the 160+ speeds.

This is why this analysis is deceptive.
You should create a metric to compare.
Total 160+ deliveries divided by total deliveries bowled on an official speed gun.
 
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A key stat also to look at is how often did Lee bowl in stadiums which had an official speed guns.
Akhter likely played in stadiums without official speed gun. His fasted delivery was recorded in England as well.
If they are accepted unofficial speed guns in Pak, Sami also comes into play lol

Since Lee had more access to Official Speed Gun, then he is also more likely to record the 160+ speeds.

This is why this analysis is deceptive.
You should create a metric to compare.
Total 160+ deliveries divided by total deliveries bowled on an official speed gun.

What unofficial speed guns?

Speed guns were regularly used from 1999 WC onwards.

Lee bowled his 160 deliveries in 2003 WC, where Akhtar also bowled his fastest ever delivery.

Where in England was his fastest delivery recorded? Please provide a reference.

Lee played far more matches than Akhtar because Lee was fitter. So this balls bowled for 160k delivery crictetia is moot.

Sami didn't bowl 160 plus. He was clocked at 160 plus by the broadcasters speed gun only and that reading was faulty as per the broadcaster.
 
What unofficial speed guns?

Speed guns were regularly used from 1999 WC onwards.

Lee bowled his 160 deliveries in 2003 WC, where Akhtar also bowled his fastest ever delivery.

Where in England was his fastest delivery recorded? Please provide a reference.

Lee played far more matches than Akhtar because Lee was fitter. So this balls bowled for 160k delivery crictetia is moot.

Sami didn't bowl 160 plus. He was clocked at 160 plus by the broadcasters speed gun only and that reading was faulty as per the broadcaster.

Exactly Sami didn’t bowl 160 plus because broadcaster speed gun wasn’t good.
The good speed guns were in Aus and Eng where Lee was bowling. So naturally Lee had more opportunity to record his speeds.

When Akhtar was bowling in Pak/Asia, broadcaster speed gun wasn’t available or just not good most of the time.
 
Exactly Sami didn’t bowl 160 plus because broadcaster speed gun wasn’t good.
The good speed guns were in Aus and Eng where Lee was bowling. So naturally Lee had more opportunity to record his speeds.

When Akhtar was bowling in Pak/Asia, broadcaster speed gun wasn’t available or just not good most of the time.

Hai? What is this new explaination? Who told you that speed gun in asia is not good but its good in NZ Aus and Eng?
 
It’s actually a question of supply demand .
In yesteryears , bowlers with pace were given quick entry into the team . Nowadays , there is a big queue .

Umran has been fast tracked into the t20 setup . Likely will be in tests too soon .

India has been using its fast bowlers well . Rotation and chance to new bowlers like the chance to avesh khan in the current t20 series .

The message is very clear - hard work at ranji , ipl and other domestic tournaments is rewarded with spots into the india a team and india team . Also once in the team , u are given opportunities to fail . Saini was given ample chances but he didn’t cut it and siraj grabbed the test chances .

India has produced a fair system . I wouldn’t critisize their fast bowling and spin bowling management .the biggest mismanagement india did was with its batters . Somehow , bad apples were persisted far too long .
 
This is probably one of the worst threads I have come across. The author doesn't have any basis, nor suggests a solution or any real insight in his long essay. Worst part of it all, is that its geared towards the wrong audience.
 
Hai? What is this new explaination? Who told you that speed gun in asia is not good but its good in NZ Aus and Eng?

First, clarification/apologies. The fastest delivery by Shoib was recorded in SA but it was against Eng. it wasn’t recorded in Eng like you pointed out.

Anyway, you must be living under a rock if you think all fast bowlers had equal access to ICC sanctioned Speed guns.

Here’s another example where Shoib’s 160+ delivery in Lahore wasn’t accepted. Note that ICC didn’t dispute it because the tech was bad, but because just that speed gun was not ICC sanctioned.

https://sportslumo.com/amp/cricket/...vs-new-zealand-but-icc-does-not-recognise-it/

There were many games where Shoib was bowling devastating fast but no ICC speed gun was available.
On the other hand, Lee had the privilege of playing most of his games in Aus/Eng which almost always had ICC speed guns.

So this factor must be accounted for in the analysis. It’s still possible Lee bowled more 160+ deliveries, but you can’t say for sure until you account the access/opportunity
 
Not sure who wrote the OP but he/she should start watching cricket first. This maybe a new thing for India, I mean the 150kmph+ fast bowler but cricket world has already seen these types of bowlers before.

Team management showed the confidence in Bhuvi, Avesh and Harshal and they are the reason behind India's comeback in the ongoing SA series. People are making fun of their speed now because we have finally found a 150k fast bowler. These are the same fans who used to get offended by fans from other countries when they used to make fun of our fast bowlers. You can see the desperation in those fans who got hurt by those comments now. They want to show off their new 'ferrari' forgetting that 'ferrari' won't work on most of the Indian roads. Be patient and wait for Umran to tour countries like South Africa, Australia, NZ and England. This is where he can make an impact. :inti
 
As for Umran, former BCCI selector MSK Prasad feels that although the 22-year-old pacer had a phenomenal IPL, he will have to wait before receiving his India cap.

Also Read: 'Ravi was a broadcaster. Had no business coaching India' - Former Pakistan captain blames Shastri for Virat Kohli's slump

"There's lot of talk, but who is playing in place of Umran? Avesh Khan… Someone who has played earlier for the country and done well. So Dravid has done the right thing by opting for continuity. Avesh has bowled well in all stages of the game. Even Harshal Patel has been in good form. I don't see anything wrong in holding him back. Agreed, Umran has done well in the IPL. But he has to wait and his chance will come... Everyone should get a fair run and Dravid has been doing the right thing," Prasad told The Telegraph.

This is the mentality that needs to change. This is not a restaurant where there is first come first serve rule. This is the Indian team and if X has more ability than Y, then X plays, no matter how senior Y is.

If this attitude was there earlier, Sachin Tendulkar wouldn't have made his debut at 16.

This attitude has spoilt the career of Mayank Agarwal. Spoilt precious years of Bumrah and Siraj. I don't know who introduced this stupid policy in Indian cricket.
 
3 pacers around the 90mph mark for India.

This is what Pakistan used to have.

At the moment it seems the tables have turned.
 
Dont think India have to do anything different here… their bowling attack is still very potent!
 
It's unrealistic to expect guys that bowl at 150+ to have long careers. Besides Steyn how many express pace bowlers in the last two decades have had long careers?

You can do all you want, but fact is, bowling that quick will always make you susceptible to injuries. Best you can do is be smart about when to play such players.

But saying that talented players should be fast-tracked to the team is just a bad idea. And I know that because I have seen this as a Pakistani fan far too many times. No amount of talent in the world can make up for the skills that you learn from experience.

And the Siraj example is a terrible one. They may have wasted a few years on him in Ranji Trophy cricket, I don't know enough to say anything on that. But the fact that they made Siraj play a lot of cricket for India A before he played for India was brilliant and something more teams should try to do. Because that stint allowed him to hone his skills by playing against the A teams of countries like Australia, South Africa..

Had he not played for India A he would have been like a fish out of water playing for India. Kinda like Naseem Shah and Mohammad Musa were when they were fed to the wolves on their test debut in freakin' Australia!

I get Indian fans are hyped about Umran Malik. I do. But the guy is absolute garbage. He can't bowl three balls in the same channel. He is far too erratic with his line and length and above all, he is nowhere near ready for international cricket. Playing lots of domestic cricket and India A cricket would actually do him a world of good.
 
It's unrealistic to expect guys that bowl at 150+ to have long careers. Besides Steyn how many express pace bowlers in the last two decades have had long careers?

You can do all you want, but fact is, bowling that quick will always make you susceptible to injuries. Best you can do is be smart about when to play such players.

But saying that talented players should be fast-tracked to the team is just a bad idea. And I know that because I have seen this as a Pakistani fan far too many times. No amount of talent in the world can make up for the skills that you learn from experience.

And the Siraj example is a terrible one. They may have wasted a few years on him in Ranji Trophy cricket, I don't know enough to say anything on that. But the fact that they made Siraj play a lot of cricket for India A before he played for India was brilliant and something more teams should try to do. Because that stint allowed him to hone his skills by playing against the A teams of countries like Australia, South Africa..

Had he not played for India A he would have been like a fish out of water playing for India. Kinda like Naseem Shah and Mohammad Musa were when they were fed to the wolves on their test debut in freakin' Australia!

I get Indian fans are hyped about Umran Malik. I do. But the guy is absolute garbage. He can't bowl three balls in the same channel. He is far too erratic with his line and length and above all, he is nowhere near ready for international cricket. Playing lots of domestic cricket and India A cricket would actually do him a world of good.

Siraj was ready for tests in 2018. Should have played against Windies at home and then played in Australia if necessary. He had already played a fair bit of A games and he was a couple of levels ahead of every other bowler .
 
Pace without skill, control and execution under pressure is just garbage at international level. You need a few seasons at domestic level to develop these. But agree you should look to fast track somebody with raw pace but not too soon or it can be counter productive. Sub continental fans are fickle and a few bad games and it can mean curtains for good.
 
Indian so called fast bowlers don't last very long. This Umran Malik guy will be a medium pacer by two years. He will follow the same path as Irfan Pathan and Munaf Patel to name just two.
 
It's unrealistic to expect guys that bowl at 150+ to have long careers. Besides Steyn how many express pace bowlers in the last two decades have had long careers?

You can do all you want, but fact is, bowling that quick will always make you susceptible to injuries. Best you can do is be smart about when to play such players.

But saying that talented players should be fast-tracked to the team is just a bad idea. And I know that because I have seen this as a Pakistani fan far too many times. No amount of talent in the world can make up for the skills that you learn from experience.

And the Siraj example is a terrible one. They may have wasted a few years on him in Ranji Trophy cricket, I don't know enough to say anything on that. But the fact that they made Siraj play a lot of cricket for India A before he played for India was brilliant and something more teams should try to do. Because that stint allowed him to hone his skills by playing against the A teams of countries like Australia, South Africa..

Had he not played for India A he would have been like a fish out of water playing for India. Kinda like Naseem Shah and Mohammad Musa were when they were fed to the wolves on their test debut in freakin' Australia!

I get Indian fans are hyped about Umran Malik. I do. But the guy is absolute garbage. He can't bowl three balls in the same channel. He is far too erratic with his line and length and above all, he is nowhere near ready for international cricket. Playing lots of domestic cricket and India A cricket would actually do him a world of good.

Lol at steyn being express. He was around 137-145 Max. Occasionally 145-150. Same as Cummins and bumrah. Cummins doesn't even go over 145 now.
Rabada is the same speed as peak steyn.
 
Indian so called fast bowlers don't last very long. This Umran Malik guy will be a medium pacer by two years. He will follow the same path as Irfan Pathan and Munaf Patel to name just two.

Lol yea. It's their coaches. But they are focusing more on bounce. Bounce at decent pace is more dangerous than pure express pace. I expect umran to be 140-145 in tests. Not 150 plus. Impossible to sustain that.
 
Lol yea. It's their coaches. But they are focusing more on bounce. Bounce at decent pace is more dangerous than pure express pace. I expect umran to be 140-145 in tests. Not 150 plus. Impossible to sustain that.

Few months of fast bowling then he'll transform in to a medium pacer or just fade away completely. Bounce doesn't scare too many classy batsmen who can play the hook shot easily.
 
Few months of fast bowling then he'll transform in to a medium pacer or just fade away completely. Bounce doesn't scare too many classy batsmen who can play the hook shot easily.

That's true. When I say bounce I meant like bowlers to use it as a secret weapon. Even the yorker. Like surprise factor. Not constant bounce like Wagner who can be predictable.
Most batsmen struggle vs surprise batsmen. The great Smith got outworked by joffra. Since then he hasn't been the same. His average has dipped post that series.

Everyone is tough until they get hit in the face as the great tyson would say. Sorry. Everyone has a plan.

Bouncers at decent pace especially when used as a surprise weapon threatens all batsmen.
 
Lol at steyn being express. He was around 137-145 Max. Occasionally 145-150. Same as Cummins and bumrah. Cummins doesn't even go over 145 now.
Rabada is the same speed as peak steyn.

Steyn's average speed was high 140s. Which for most of his career made him one of the fastest bowlers in the world.
 
Steyn was express at the start of his career. He slowed down a bit as the years went on but was still over 140 more often than not.
 
India’s problem as with England is that their bowlers are not varied enough. It becomes very samey samey. They need an Umran to shake things up a bit. But if they don’t have the guts to pick him it’s their problem.
 
That's true. When I say bounce I meant like bowlers to use it as a secret weapon. Even the yorker. Like surprise factor. Not constant bounce like Wagner who can be predictable.
Most batsmen struggle vs surprise batsmen. The great Smith got outworked by joffra. Since then he hasn't been the same. His average has dipped post that series.

Everyone is tough until they get hit in the face as the great tyson would say. Sorry. Everyone has a plan.

Bouncers at decent pace especially when used as a surprise weapon threatens all batsmen.

Outworked by joffra? Biggest myth. He literally smashed 212 next game, and smashed Jofra to all parts. Smith comprehensively won that battle.
 
Express pace (150+) is no longer as effective as it was in the past. Batsmen nowadays are very innovative.

Also, express pacers often get injured quicker (Shoaib Akthar, Shaun Tait, Shane Bond etc.).

Umran Malik needs to fix his line and length first.
 
India’s problem as with England is that their bowlers are not varied enough. It becomes very samey samey. They need an Umran to shake things up a bit. But if they don’t have the guts to pick him it’s their problem.

Express bowlers have just been a handful in the history of the game. Even if they have played, they haven't done exceedingly better than other bowlers. In the last 20 years there have been only 2-3 express bowlers (Bowlers who can bowl genuine 150+). None of the them became great, Shoaib was the best of the lot but played less than 50 Tests. Lee took 300 wickets but averaged 30.

The bowlers who have been successful are the ones who can average around 140 and can bowl odd spells at 90 miles an hour. Australia in the 90's had McGrath, Gillespie, Fleming, Kasprowicz. None of them were express but had the best all-round unit in the world. You need a good bowling team, Indian pacers have been the best in the world over the last 3 or 4 years and they did not need an Umran Malik. Even now in England we have a chance of winning the series 3-1 without anyone express. Having express fast bowlers is overrated, they don't do much better than Medium fast bowlers. History is there to prove it.
 
Outworked by joffra? Biggest myth. He literally smashed 212 next game, and smashed Jofra to all parts. Smith comprehensively won that battle.
Wrong. He has averaged much lower since that serie.s
 
Umran Malik is too short to warrant a change in any policy. He could change this with exceptional skillset of course, but that will take a minimum of 2-3 years to develop. For now, he is one of the short speed demons like Naseem Shah, good only for speed-guns and batsmen.
 
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Wrong. He has averaged much lower since that serie.s

What wrong?

Smith scored 212 next game and smashed Archer. If he was so troubled by him, he wouldn't have smashed him like he did the very next game.

Him averaging less since that series (not game) doesn't come close to being a logical case for your point. If that was the case, the next game wouldn't have seen that carnage from Smith.

It's simply an ignorant opinion.
 
What wrong?

Smith scored 212 next game and smashed Archer. If he was so troubled by him, he wouldn't have smashed him like he did the very next game.

Him averaging less since that series (not game) doesn't come close to being a logical case for your point. If that was the case, the next game wouldn't have seen that carnage from Smith.

It's simply an ignorant opinion.

How does it not make sense.
He has been affected by the bouncer clearly.
Since literally that series. Smith has averaged only 39. There you go. He gets troubled by bouncers now. Wagner owned him. Bumrah troubled him.
 
It really wasn't.

Yeah it was. I don't know if you started watching cricket 3-4 years ago, or yesterday but during his peak Steyn's pace hovered in the high 140s.

Even during the tail end of his career he was bowling between 140-145.
 
Stay on topic

Thread about India bowlers.
 
I agree to original post to a certain extent. Yes, we have the mentality of 2-3 solid Ranji seasons before selection. but also feel have to flexible to certain extent. What i cant get over is our attitude of rewarding mediocrity - eg Sir legend Bhuvi 120kmph faster one Sobers who chosen as vice captain.
His continued selection has singlehandely spoilt the development of som young bowler.
Am ok with selecting umraan and throwing him into red ball he has time on his side. He will lenda diferent dimension to the attack much like bond to nz in 2000's
The other aspect to develop a pace mentality is our pathetic pitches which spin like tops inside the first day first session first hour.
Till such days we develop true bounce read even bounce wickets in our ranji scene that all kinds of bowlers thrive and batsmen also get to show their talent - we will face a pace bowling vacuum once ishant, shami, yadav, leave the scene. Not only will such pitches encourage young quicks, we will also develop good gun slipsmen.
 
I agree to original post to a certain extent. Yes, we have the mentality of 2-3 solid Ranji seasons before selection. but also feel have to flexible to certain extent. What i cant get over is our attitude of rewarding mediocrity - eg Sir legend Bhuvi 120kmph faster one Sobers who chosen as vice captain.
His continued selection has singlehandely spoilt the development of som young bowler.
Am ok with selecting umraan and throwing him into red ball he has time on his side. He will lenda diferent dimension to the attack much like bond to nz in 2000's
The other aspect to develop a pace mentality is our pathetic pitches which spin like tops inside the first day first session first hour.
Till such days we develop true bounce read even bounce wickets in our ranji scene that all kinds of bowlers thrive and batsmen also get to show their talent - we will face a pace bowling vacuum once ishant, shami, yadav, leave the scene. Not only will such pitches encourage young quicks, we will also develop good gun slipsmen.

Bhuvi's T20Is stats are not bad. He may be a trundler but he is a useful one. And kindly name the bowler whose development was spoilt by Bhuvi lol. :inti
 
India's fast bowlers in ODIs

2010-2015 - Average: 32.80; Strike rate: 36; Economy: 5.51

2016-2021 - Average: 33.52; Strike rate: 36; Economy: 5.54

2022-now - Average: 25.80; Strike rate: 29; Economy: 5.27
 
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