Is a medium-pace coach a good choice for a team that generally relies on genuine fast bowlers?

[tiger_khan]

Aaqib Javed had a very good bouncer in his arsenal. He had the mentality of a genuine fast bowler. Although he is very involved with the PCB but he's not with the team all the time.

Azhar Mahmood has been with the Pakistani team for a long time now as a coach. Is he a good choice?

Lately, I've been noticing that the Pak fast bowlers have been bowling with a medium pacer's mentality. Not enough good bouncers. Too many slower deliveries. Slower deliveries with pace variation of more than 10 miles sometimes, which make them useless.

If Pakistan is to obstruct our decline of fast bowling in international games, we must bring in a fast bowling coach with a fast bowler approach.

 

[sweep_shot]

There is no guarantee that a coach's playing history would impact his coaching.

For example, Dav Whatmore barely played any international cricket. But, he is one of the most successful coaches of all time (SL won a WC under him, BD went to 2nd round of WC under him, Pakistan won Asia Cup under him etc.).

A head coach's job is to select the right players and keep players in good spirit. It is basically managing the players.

 

[tiger_khan]

There is no guarantee that a coach's playing history would impact his coaching.

For example, Dav Whatmore barely played any international cricket. But, he is one of the most successful coaches of all time (SL won a WC under him, BD went to 2nd round of WC under him, Pakistan won Asia Cup under him etc.).

A head coach's job is to select the right players and keep players in good spirit. It is basically managing the players.

you are right but you not all players adapt to the coaching role well

one has to divorce one's personal past from the requirements of the team. something that Pakistani coaches have notoriously failed to do

pak fast bowlers are draining themselves while they are on the job

example: the T20 World Cup final against England (Melbourne). Although Pakistan batted first but it took them half of the English innings to realized that it's a seam up bowling pitch. Don't have to try too many variations. Once they started to bowl seam-up they were unplayable but it was too late by then. It's the job of the bowling coach to provide the bowlers with a plan prior to the innings.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Nathan Lyon's personal bowling coach has been Canada's John Davison, an opening batter known for his 68 ball hundred in 2003 wc.
Need to hire a coach who knows how to teach the particular skills to the players and have players who are eager to learn.
It would be better to hire school cricket coaches from England or SA to teach our superstars like they teach kids.

 

[tiger_khan]

Nathan Lyon's personal bowling coach has been Canada's John Davison, an opening batter known for his 68 ball hundred in 2003 wc.
Need to hire a coach who knows how to teach the particular skills to the players and have players who are eager to learn.
It would be better to hire school cricket coaches from England or SA to teach our superstars like they teach kids.

i don't think that things are that bad that Pak national team players need the English school coaches

IMHO, the remedy is red-ball cricket. people should not get into the national team through shortcuts. they must play first class cricket annually, if the schedule permits

you can learn things in red ball cricket which you just simply can't in white ball's limited version

mental strength and physical fitness are developed through first class cricket

 

[BunnyRabbit]

i don't think that things are that bad that Pak national team players need the English school coaches

IMHO, the remedy is red-ball cricket. people should not get into the national team through shortcuts. they must play first class cricket annually, if the schedule permits

you can learn things in red ball cricket which you just simply can't in white ball's limited version

mental strength and physical fitness are developed through first class cricket

When you see the likes of Danish Aziz and Haris scoring centuries in FC, you know the pitches must be a joke. The stupidity of making flat tracks to produce "world class batsmen" was probably the worst decision by whoever decided to do that.
Fakhar Zaman is playing his first FC match in 4 years and he hasn't even had a packed schedule in senior team. Tells you how less the current crop is interested in long format. Babar and Shaheen consider themselves to be too good for FC cricket it seems.
My point regarding English school coaches was how bad the basics of new players are. I doubt these guys get any kind of coaching in terms of fixing the most basic stuff. Spinners have forgotten to spin the ball. Pacers cant swing the ball anymore. Batters can't score fifties let alone hundreds. Huraira and Mubasir keep dominating domestic cricket but look like headless chickens when they get to play in a high profile game. Huraira looked clueless against WI.
Fakhar should have played a lot more tests than a paltry 3 match stretch 7 years ago with 2 of them coming in SA.

 

[pillionrider]

I remember Venkatesh Prasad being criticized towards the end of his career as a bowling coach. Can't remember who said it but basically it went - this guy kept on about slower ball, slower ball to Ishant Sharma so much, he made him a slower bowler

 

[BouncerGuy]

Azhar is gonna be your permanent coach I think... Pakistan is already not playing that many test matches so if somehow Pakistan beats South Africa, I think PCB will keep Azhar.

TBH, I have not seen any improvement under azhar. He has been with the team before as well.

 

[tiger_khan]

When you see the likes of Danish Aziz and Haris scoring centuries in FC, you know the pitches must be a joke. The stupidity of making flat tracks to produce "world class batsmen" was probably the worst decision by whoever decided to do that.
Fakhar Zaman is playing his first FC match in 4 years and he hasn't even had a packed schedule in senior team. Tells you how less the current crop is interested in long format. Babar and Shaheen consider themselves to be too good for FC cricket it seems.
My point regarding English school coaches was how bad the basics of new players are. I doubt these guys get any kind of coaching in terms of fixing the most basic stuff. Spinners have forgotten to spin the ball. Pacers cant swing the ball anymore. Batters can't score fifties let alone hundreds. Huraira and Mubasir keep dominating domestic cricket but look like headless chickens when they get to play in a high profile game. Huraira looked clueless against WI.
Fakhar should have played a lot more tests than a paltry 3 match stretch 7 years ago with 2 of them coming in SA.

I have a theory

it's actually a conjecture and needs to be investigated

I want t find out if decent money is being paid to the big names to play domestic cricket or not?

The compensation through PCB (the usual contracts) should not cover it. Players should be paid based on their talent for domestic cricket separately. Just like they are paid separately for the PSL.

I suspect that the big names are being paid peanuts for FC cricket.

 

[tiger_khan]

I remember Venkatesh Prasad being criticized towards the end of his career as a bowling coach. Can't remember who said it but basically it went - this guy kept on about slower ball, slower ball to Ishant Sharma so much, he made him a slower bowler

Prasad was a very talented and intelligent medium pace bowler.

He had an amazing leg-cutter.

However, he was not a genuine fast bowler. The slower ones with his regular pace was a very good option because it did not come with a 10 mile pace differences.

Unfortunately, a lot of South Asian players as coaches try to relive their lives through younger cricketers without recognizing the differences in the abilities.

 

[tiger_khan]

Azhar is gonna be your permanent coach I think... Pakistan is already not playing that many test matches so if somehow Pakistan beats South Africa, I think PCB will keep Azhar.

TBH, I have not seen any improvement under azhar. He has been with the team before as well.

He is going to be a permanent head coach and they will only have spin bowling coach, separately. I think Azhar will also assume the responsibilities of the fast bowling coach.

He has not been very effective as a coach.

PCB is basically a revolving door policy. Ex-players first play the role of experts on TV. Give radical advices. Once they become the selectors or coaches they contradict their comments as experts. After they fail as coaches and selectors they are accommodated somewhere else within the PBC. Sometimes they are given roles to manage the Women's cricket team. All of the sudden even the women's team start doing worse than before.

The nepotism in PCB is killing Pak cricket.

 

[Savak]

Waqar Younis was a tear way fast bowler in his prime. Yet as head coach all our premier pacers lost 10 km in pace ie Naseem Shah

 

[tiger_khan]

Waqar Younis was a tear way fast bowler in his prime. Yet as head coach all our premier pacers lost 10 km in pace ie Naseem Shah

That's debatable. Umar Gul actually started to bowl quick on a regular basis under Waqar's coaching. Shoaib Akhtar was playing his final years. Mohd Asif was never a genuine fast bowler. Mohammad Amir kept on bowling fast. Junaid Khan was always a variation bowler. Rana Naveed also developed a good bouncer under Waqar Younis. Even Mohammad Irfan was bowling quick regularly under Waqar

Overall, when Waqar Younis was a coach Pak fast bowling improved. He added value to it.

However, his decisions and approach as coach in departments other than the fast bowling can be analyzed critically.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Coaching and playing are two completely different disciplines. Just because you were a good player doesn't mean you will a good coach, and vice-versa. Infact, in many cases it's guys who had very unremarkable/disappointing cricketing careers who end up making good coaches. Who even remembers the cricketing careers of guys like Troy Cooley, Ottis Gibson, Shane Jurgensen, Bharat Arun? Yet they have all helped the fast-bowlers they worked with in different ways. Azhar Mahmood was never particularly quick but he was likely taught the same basics about fast-bowling that any other pacer is.

As fans its easy for us to sit back and say so and so doesn't deserve to be a coach because he never achieved anything as a player. But frankly, I think that's a bit of an ignorant thing to say because we don't know what that coach is telling the players. Also, anyone who has played professional cricket has a far greater understanding about the technical aspects of the sport of cricket than most of us could even fathom.

 

[Obaidd]

We have tried Azhar in so many roles and he failed in each of them. At the moment, PCB is simply stuck with him because of the contract they signed with him. Is he suitable for a test ball coach role, not at all. Him continuing to play for Kings XI Punjab on a british passport when all his pak mates were effectively banned from IPL also tells me what’s most important to him.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I have a theory

it's actually a conjecture and needs to be investigated

I want t find out if decent money is being paid to the big names to play domestic cricket or not?

The compensation through PCB (the usual contracts) should not cover it. Players should be paid based on their talent for domestic cricket separately. Just like they are paid separately for the PSL.

I suspect that the big names are being paid peanuts for FC cricket.

Category A, B, C contracted players should have a clause in their contracts that should have them play domestic FC and LA cricket as well.

 

[tiger_khan]

Category A, B, C contracted players should have a clause in their contracts that should have them play domestic FC and LA cricket as well.

It's OK to make them play domestic cricket but they should get fair wages for playing domestic cricket. It should be separate from the PCB contract compensation. I am not sure if that is happening or not but form the attitude of the players, it looks less likely that they are being paid separately for domestic cricket. Even if they are being paid separately, I suspect its not what an international player should be paid.

 

[TheSultan]

I’ve never seen Azhar do anything great, and even when he talks about the game, it doesn’t give me any reassurance.

The only thing you hear from him “right areas” and “tight lines”. It’s like yea cheers Sherlock, no one else would have thought of that.

He seems to be another parchi that hangs around long enough to get rewarded with head coach.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

It's OK to make them play domestic cricket but they should get fair wages for playing domestic cricket. It should be separate from the PCB contract compensation. I am not sure if that is happening or not but form the attitude of the players, it looks less likely that they are being paid separately for domestic cricket. Even if they are being paid separately, I suspect its not what an international player should be paid.

yes domestic cricket wages need to increase.

 

[tiger_khan]

I’ve never seen Azhar do anything great, and even when he talks about the game, it doesn’t give me any reassurance.

The only thing you hear from him “right areas” and “tight lines”. It’s like yea cheers Sherlock, no one else would have thought of that.

He seems to be another parchi that hangs around long enough to get rewarded with head coach.

That's a medium pacer mentality

I am telling you man, if Akram and Waqar Younis and even Aaqib Javed were bowling at the age of Haris and Shaheen in this Asia Cup they would have gone to hit the batsmen. Yes, they would have still given runs but they would have sent out the message to not come down the wicket on them. These Asia Cup pitches were not a flat 1996 Banglore pitch. A good genuine fast bowler and his mentality would keep the players in the batting crease.

Haris Rauf is still falling after delivering balls. Shaheen Afridi's head is still down when he is delivering the balls. I bet you Shaheen didn't even see Abhi Sheikh shuffling when he was bowling bouncers to him. These are the things that the bowling coach has to work with the players.

I also don't understand, why Shaheen's pace all of the sudden increase rapidly in the final? Every ball he wanted to bowl fast went rapidly. Who decides that Shaheen should not bowl with the same pace in each every game? Is he giving his 100%? Or by plan he is being asked to bowl slower?

 

[sweep_shot]

That's a medium pacer mentality

I am telling you man, if Akram and Waqar Younis and even Aaqib Javed were bowling at the age of Haris and Shaheen in this Asia Cup they would have gone to hit the batsmen. Yes, they would have still given runs but they would have sent out the message to not come down the wicket on them. These Asia Cup pitches were not a flat 1996 Banglore pitch. A good genuine fast bowler and his mentality would keep the players in the batting crease.

Haris Rauf is still falling after delivering balls. Shaheen Afridi's head is still down when he is delivering the balls. I bet you Shaheen didn't even see Abhi Sheikh shuffling when he was bowling bouncers to him. These are the things that the bowling coach has to work with the players.

I also don't understand, why Shaheen's pace all of the sudden increase rapidly in the final? Every ball he wanted to bowl fast went rapidly. Who decides that Shaheen should not bowl with the same pace in each every game? Is he giving his 100%? Or by plan he is being asked to bowl slower?

I am surprised why Haris Rauf falls like this.

I never saw Shoaib Akthar, Brett Lee, and Shaun Tait fall like that. They were much faster than Rauf.

 

[tiger_khan]

I am surprised why Haris Rauf falls like this.

I never saw Shoaib Akthar, Brett Lee, and Shaun Tait fall like that. They were much faster than Rauf.

When you play on dry pitches, other bowlers' leave foot holds which are more prominent than usual. Even if the ground staff repairs it, it comes back very fast, He is struggling wit that when he is landing on foot holds. But I could be wrong because he is falling in every and all conditions. But the spikes are supposed to support you foot under such difficult conditions. Clearly it's not working for him. Most likely because no one is helping him.

It's not only the bowlers. Even the club cricket batsmen struggle on dry turf pitches. Every batsman has a different guard. They mark their guards regularly. The marking eventually leaves holes on the batting creases. it's an art to stand on the crease under those conditions and not let your batting get affected. That's why the professional international players get paid big bucks.

 

[TheSultan]

I am surprised why Haris Rauf falls like this.

I never saw Shoaib Akthar, Brett Lee, and Shaun Tait fall like that. They were much faster than Rauf.

Bowling actions and biomechanics are different for many bowlers. Shoaib, Lee and Waqar had long, flowing, accelerating run ups and beautiful actions. Wasim had that quick arm action and when he wanted to bowl fast had a sprinting run up. They were all in control at the crease - not only cos of their action, but also the repetition of their action. This comes with bowling a lot of overs

Haris has an awkward, bumbling run up and not the greatest action either. It’s actually quite an achievement he manages to bowl that fast. But the problem is, he doesn’t have that repetition, he just doesn’t bowl enough. Tait was another one with an awkward action and the strange pause in his action. It worked for him I suppose.

Over here in the UK, you must have seen Shahbaz the bowling coach from speed camp (hasnain had a stint with him too). If you watch some of his videos, he encourages young budding fast bowlers to fall over. That I’m assuming is to get their momentum in their bowling. I’m assuming with experience, they learn to control that falling over once things are refined somewhat.

The problem with Rauf is that he just hasn’t refined anything with his action and as I said before he just doesn’t bowl enough.

 

[tiger_khan]

Rauf has a tapeball bowling action

His upper body is very stiff during the run-up. Even if he plays a long version, he will eventually get injured

The reason he doesn't want to play longer version is because he squeezes his upper body muscles too much starting from his run up. You get tired very quickly if you do that. Needless to say, he puts unwarranted pressure on his back because of this squeeze


Your post is a testimony to the fact that cricket is an ever- evolving sport. In my times we were trained to get out of the crease as quickly as possible. We were also told to have a follow through even we didn't have one. The idea was that your body will get used to a follow through if you push your body to have a superficial one


A genuine fast bowler's run up should be as if he is running a relay race and is about to hand over the stick to someone else. The left arm usage is also very important because it gives balance to your moving body. And when your body is moving with proper balance, your actions becomes repeatable. Without a repeatable bowling action you can't become an international bowler.

Agree with you on every point.

 

[BouncerGuy]

We have seen what extra pace has done, like a bowler like Haris rauf, who is nothing but a brainless bowling machine. Accuracy, line, and length with some good pace is more handy until you are Shoaib Akhtar or Brett Lee, who have extra pace but were equally effective

 

[tiger_khan]

Rauf has a tapeball bowling action

His upper body is very stiff during the run-up. Even if he plays a long version, he will eventually get injured

The reason he doesn't want to play longer version is because he squeezes his upper body muscles too much starting from his run up. You get tired very quickly if you do that. Needless to say, he puts unwarranted pressure on his back because of this squeeze


Your post is a testimony to the fact that cricket is an ever- evolving sport. In my times we were trained to get out of the crease as quickly as possible. We were also told to have a follow through even we didn't have one. The idea was that your body will get used to a follow through if you push your body to have a superficial one


A genuine fast bowler's run up should be as if he is running a relay race and is about to hand over the stick to someone else. The left arm usage is also very important because it gives balance to your moving body. And when your body is moving with proper balance, your actions becomes repeatable. Without a repeatable bowling action you can't become an international bowler.

Agree with you on every point.

@TheSultan sorry I meant to reply to your post #23 but forgot to quote you.

 

[tiger_khan]

We have seen what extra pace has done, like a bowler like Haris rauf, who is nothing but a brainless bowling machine. Accuracy, line, and length with some good pace is more handy until you are Shoaib Akhtar or Brett Lee, who have extra pace but were equally effective

IMHO he is a genuine fast bowler with a medium pacer's mentality

Shab Akhtar was right when he criticized his over the top after-wicket-celebrations, for getting people get caught in deep outfield.

 

[BouncerGuy]

IMHO he is a genuine fast bowler with a medium pacer's mentality

Shab Akhtar was right when he criticized his over the top after-wicket-celebrations, for getting people get caught in deep outfield.

Yeah. He just wants to bowl fast and forgets about line and length and situation