Does South Africa have the best all-time Test XI ever?

[Harsh Thakor]

When I look through history South Africa nurtured some of the most outstanding talent ever created on a cricket field.In junctures it was arguably the best test team in the world.I am here selecting an all-time South African XI and comparing it with the best of all-time XI's.





Barry Richards

Graeme Smith (C)

Hashim Amla

Graeme Pollock

Jacques Kallis

AB Devilliers (W)

Mike Procter

Shaun Pollock

Dale Steyn

Alan Donald

Hugh Tayfield







Notable no all-time test XI has so many great all rounders.Kallis was like a Sobers of his day while Procter was after retirement of Sobers the best all-rounder of the 1970's.Dale Steyn statistically compared to the best fast bowlers of all while Alan Donlad in term sf pure skill was in the class of a Lillee or Marshall.Both had devastating speed.Shaun Pollock was close to the best of all medium pacers with his remarkable avergae of around 21 and 400 scalps.He also was an effective batsman.Devilliers was like a Viv Richards of his time being the most explosive and imaginative batsman of his time.Hashim Amla averaged around 50 for most of his career and wa sthe ultimate man to stick t out in the middle or grind .Graeme Pollock had the 2nd highest test avergae after Bradman then,who took batting inventiveness to region of the sublime.Arguably an equal of a Viv or Lara.Barry Richards was arguably the best of all opening batsman and in the allround sense the most complete or perfect.Like a Sunil Gavaskar and Brian Lara rolled into one.No batsmen ever blended attacking skill with such technical correctness as Barry.Graeme Smith could compile batting classics and was one of the game's best ever captains.Statistically Hugh Tayfield is one of the great spin bowlers of all time considering his era .





The batting superbly blends solidity or staying power with attacking agression or ability to tear apart opponents.It has 2 great bowling and one great batting all-rounder .It blends extreme pace with seam movement and effective spin in the bowling attack.Also a great fielding side.



I would possibly back it to be the most balanced all-time test XI of all-edging even West Indies and Australia.The allrounders and fielding is the crucial factor as well as opening batsman.

 

[Robert]

Possibly. Though I’d argue that Barbados (alone) would be able to field a side pretty much as good.

 

[Ab Fan]

Without a doubt, without a doubt.

The most talented, destructive and all-round team any nation can ever field.

The amount of talent and skill that Barry, Pollock, ABDV, Proctor and Donald possessed is manmoth and incomparable.

1990s - 2nd best team
2000s- 2nd best team
2010s- 2nd best team

The most consistent 2nd best team of last three decades by a mile.

 

[Robert]

Australia XI

Morris
Hayden
Bradman
Chappell
AB
Miller
Gilchrist
Lindwall
Warne
Lillee
McGrath

If it’s a spin wicket bring in Grimmett or O’Reilly or Benaud. Saffers are not great at batting against wrist spin so two of these would get them out.

Barbados XI

Greenidge
Haynes
Hunte
Weeks
Worrall
Sobers
Walcott
Marshall
Daniel
Garner
Hall

 

[Hasan123]

Has to be Australia or West Indies.

 

[Gilly]

Without a doubt, without a doubt.

The most talented, destructive and all-round team any nation can ever field.

The amount of talent and skill that Barry, Pollock, ABDV, Proctor and Donald possessed is manmoth and incomparable.

1990s - 2nd best team
2000s- 2nd best team
2010s- 2nd best team

The most consistent 2nd best team of last three decades by a mile.

Who were the most consistent number one teams?.

 

[Gilly]

Australian team

Hayden
S Smith
Bradman
Ponting
Waugh S
Gilchrist
Miller
Cummins
Warne
Lillee
McGrath

Every base covered.

 

[Chrish]

No. It’s between WI and Aus.

In SA’s case, it’s all “could have been”.

 

[hoshiarpurexpress]

Man what a team. If only they had more killer instincts like the Aussies what could have been.

 

[Bigboii]

Yes, they look scarier to me than the aussies or WI XI...
But we know even current Pak odi team can beat them in an ICC world cup final

 

[Hitman]

Australia XI

Morris
Hayden
Bradman
Chappell
AB
Miller
Gilchrist
Lindwall
Warne
Lillee
McGrath

If it’s a spin wicket bring in Grimmett or O’Reilly or Benaud. Saffers are not great at batting against wrist spin so two of these would get them out.

Barbados XI

Greenidge
Haynes
Hunte
Weeks
Worrall
Sobers
Walcott
Marshall
Daniel
Garner
Hall

You forgot Ricky Ponting or you seriously don't believe he belongs in an Aussie All Time XI? He has been rated by his peers as the greatest Aussie batsman after Bradman.

 

[Suleiman]

Between Australia and West Indies. WI of 70s-80s vs Australia of 2000s would be an insane matchup. Neither were chokers and were absolutely ruthless, truly deserving of #1 of their respective periods.

 

[Srtfan]

Even without Bradman aus atg xi is better than everyone.
Hayden
Smith
Ponting
Chappell
Steve Waugh
Border
Gilly
Cummins
Warne
Lillee
McGrath

 

[Junaids]

You’ve actually missed a further ATG all-rounder!

Amla would only get into that team on racial grounds.

Otherwise you’d surely pick Eddie Barlow who in a modern T20 world would be absolutely priceless!

There’s also a problem with your fast bowlers.

Neil Adcock averaged 21.1 in Tests - he would be ahead of Alan Donald for sure, and arguably Dale Steyn too.

And for balance you need a 6’7 Ambrose/ McGarh clone. And that is Vince Der Bijl!

The bottom line is that we learned the truth during Kerry Packer’s World Series Cricket.

All the greats were there - from Dennis Lillee to Viv Richards.

But as soon as you combined Barry Richards with Mike Procter, they were unbeatable.

 

[Dingolfy]

Between Australia and West Indies. WI of 70s-80s vs Australia of 2000s would be an insane matchup. Neither were chokers and were absolutely ruthless, truly deserving of #1 of their respective periods.

The pace bowlers of 80’s Windies may not be as effective against the modern batsmen with better protection and bowling machines.

 

[wrongun]

Hard to say as we never saw the full career of some of their greats. Sustaining excellence is different than having a few great seasons. I don't mean at all that they would become bad players, just they might have been figured out a bit or gone off the hot streak like so many others do. The difference between great & merely excellent.

There's guys like Barry Richards & Mike Proctor in there who just can't be assessed as great. I'd offer a couple of examples as to why- if you take the first 3 years of Mike Hussey's career he'd be averaging 80 in Tests & you'd say he's an atg. But really, he was just excellent & isn't close to making any all time Oz XI's. If you look at the first couple of years of Brett Lee's career, before his elbow surgery you'd assume he'd be an unplayable fast bowling destroyer, averaging about 15 in Tests... but over time careers pan out differently.

So yes but they excelled in FC cricket... so what. So did Graham Hick & Mark Ramprakash & neither of those was even close to being a good Test player. FC cricket just isn't the same battleground.

So I can rate SA as a strong all time team, but to me, no, it is not even close to the great WI or OZ lineups.

 

[James]

No. It’s between WI and Aus.

In SA’s case, it’s all “could have been”.

Correct.

 

[Junaids]

Hard to say as we never saw the full career of some of their greats. Sustaining excellence is different than having a few great seasons. I don't mean at all that they would become bad players, just they might have been figured out a bit or gone off the hot streak like so many others do. The difference between great & merely excellent.

There's guys like Barry Richards & Mike Proctor in there who just can't be assessed as great. I'd offer a couple of examples as to why- if you take the first 3 years of Mike Hussey's career he'd be averaging 80 in Tests & you'd say he's an atg. But really, he was just excellent & isn't close to making any all time Oz XI's. If you look at the first couple of years of Brett Lee's career, before his elbow surgery you'd assume he'd be an unplayable fast bowling destroyer, averaging about 15 in Tests... but over time careers pan out differently.

So yes but they excelled in FC cricket... so what. So did Graham Hick & Mark Ramprakash & neither of those was even close to being a good Test player. FC cricket just isn't the same battleground.

So I can rate SA as a strong all time team, but to me, no, it is not even close to the great WI or OZ lineups.

With respect, there is good reason to treat Barry Richards and Mike Procter differently.

Their Test records in 1970 read:
Richards batting average 73
Procter bowling average 15.

But they then played SuperTests nine years later. And out performed everyone from Viv Richards to Dennis Lillee. To be precise, nine years later....

Richards batting average 79
Procter bowling average 16.

That’s how we know that these weren’t Adam Voges / Mike Hussey / Brett Lee misleading numbers. After eight years of exile, with older, more worn bodies, their performances had not deteriorated at all.

And, as you say, in an era in which all the world’s best players played county cricket, Barry Richards was far more feared than Viv Richards, and Mike Procter was universally recognised as better than Imran Khan or Ian Botham or Richard Hadlee.

 

[Gilly]

Can you point out 2 or 3 matches where B Richards showed why he was a ATG batsman.

With respect, there is good reason to treat Barry Richards and Mike Procter differently.

Their Test records in 1970 read:
Richards batting average 73
Procter bowling average 15.

But they then played SuperTests nine years later. And out performed everyone from Viv Richards to Dennis Lillee. To be precise, nine years later....

Richards batting average 79
Procter bowling average 16.

That’s how we know that these weren’t Adam Voges / Mike Hussey / Brett Lee misleading numbers. After eight years of exile, with older, more worn bodies, their performances had not deteriorated at all.

And, as you say, in an era in which all the world’s best players played county cricket, Barry Richards was far more feared than Viv Richards, and Mike Procter was universally recognised as better than Imran Khan or Ian Botham or Richard Hadlee.

 

[Junaids]

Can you point out 2 or 3 matches where B Richards showed why he was a ATG batsman.

1. 325 in a day against Graham McKenzie (all-time Test pace bowling leading Australian wicket taker at the time) and Dennis Lillee.

2. Winning century in Packer SuperTest Grand Final.

3. 155 not out in 40 overs in a John Player League game, before the opposition was restricted to 73-9.

In SuperTests consider these averages

Barry Richards 79.14
Greg Chappell 56.60
Viv Richards 55.69

 

[Gilly]

1. 325 in a day against Graham McKenzie (all-time Test pace bowling leading Australian wicket taker at the time) and Dennis Lillee.

2. Winning century in Packer SuperTest Grand Final.

3. 155 not out in 40 overs in a John Player League game, before the opposition was restricted to 73-9.

In SuperTests consider these averages

Barry Richards 79.14
Greg Chappell 56.60
Viv Richards 55.69

Well your know cricket Junaids, do you notice a difference between the bowlers Chappell faced and the bowlers that Richards faced. What are your thoughts on that?.

 

[Ab Fan]

Who were the most consistent number one teams?.

2010s- India
2000s- Australia
1990s- Australia ( I guess)

 

[Gilly]

1. 325 in a day against Graham McKenzie (all-time Test pace bowling leading Australian wicket taker at the time) and Dennis Lillee.

2. Winning century in Packer SuperTest Grand Final.

3. 155 not out in 40 overs in a John Player League game, before the opposition was restricted to 73-9.

In SuperTests consider these averages

Barry Richards 79.14
Greg Chappell 56.60
Viv Richards 55.69

I'll give you an example, Greg Chappell made 246 runs in a match facing Andy Roberts, Imran Khan, Joel Garner, Wayne Daniel and tony Greg. To score 246 and your team wins by 41 runs is what I call a ATG innings. Richards does not have any performances like that.

 

[James]

Barry Richards is possibly the most overrated batsman of all time.

 

[Bewal Express]

Greenidge
Haynes
Lara
Richards
Lloyd
Sobers
Dujon
Marshall
Garner
Holding
Ambrose

 

[therealAB]

Barry Richards is possibly the most overrated batsman of all time.

Why?

 

[therealAB]

No, Aus and WI are better

Barry Richards
Graeme Smith (C)
Jacques Kallis
Graeme Pollock
Dudley Nourse (>>Amla)
AB Devilliers (W)
Mike Procter
Shaun Pollock
Dale Steyn
Alan Donald
Hugh Tayfield

Keeping with DeVilliers is questionable but whatever.
Still, Aus produces

Morris
Trumper
Bradman
Smith
Chappell
Miller
Gilchrist
Davidson
Warne
Lillee
McGrath



To compare player to player:
Morris = Smith. Both top tier openers. If you are somebody who believes that old = bad then just use Hayden
Richards = Trumper. Both a bit unproven for different reasons but both considered amongst the very best
Bradman >>> Kallis
Smith >= Pollock
Chappell > Nourse
Gilchrist = De Villiers. One is a better keeper, the other a better batsmen
Miller = Proctor. Look at Millers FC stats for a good comparison
Davidson = Pollock. Very similar players, Davidson a slightly better bowler and Pollock a slightly better batsmen
Warne >> Tayfield
McGrath = Steyn
Lillee = Donald

The Australian team has a major advantage with Bradman and the better spinner. Also a major advantage on the #5 batsmen

WI also better

 

[therealAB]

The pace bowlers of 80’s Windies may not be as effective against the modern batsmen with better protection and bowling machines.

The modern batsmen may be worse due to the techniques being built to face bowlers who were generally worse than their 80's counterparts

 

[NishanKonar]

Why?

Barry Richards legacy is just based on 1 test series where he scored 500 + runs against a weak Australian bowling attack past their prime

He scored prolific in county cricket & WSC but quality of that cricket is definitely questionable. Even Denis Lilee once said that those WSC super tests did not feel like real test cricket . It always felt more like circus . This whole " WSC was toughest cricket " was more marketing PR than actual truth. More like Shane Warne saying a Yusuf Pathan century in IPL was best bating he ever saw ! In 1 WSC game, West Indies got out for 50 odd & half an hour later their players wer seen partying in the dressing room . Tells u how seriously they took it

Zaheer Abbas got big runs in county cricket & against England n test cricket but was badly exposed against Australian & West Indies pace attack . Graeme Hick was monster in county cricket but did not deliver in test cricket

We will never know for sure how good Barry Richards wud have ben against West Indies pace attack in Jamaica & Barbados. Or how he wud have fared against Bedi / Prasanna / Chandrasekhar on Indian pitches

Its not Barry Richards' fault but to rate him along side players who actually played 100+ tests in all conditions is tad unfair

 

[Gilly]

Why?

He was a excellent batsman, but he did not get the opportunity to establish himself as a ATG. His test career was short and sharp only facing several Australian bowlers at home. His batting in the supertests although very good is not ATG status, he faced very ordinary bowling in those few tests.

 

[therealAB]

Barry Richards legacy is just based on 1 test series where he scored 500 + runs against a weak Australian bowling attack past their prime

He scored prolific in county cricket & WSC but quality of that cricket is definitely questionable. Even Denis Lilee once said that those WSC super tests did not feel like real test cricket . It always felt more like circus . This whole " WSC was toughest cricket " was more marketing PR than actual truth. More like Shane Warne saying a Yusuf Pathan century in IPL was best bating he ever saw ! In 1 WSC game, West Indies got out for 50 odd & half an hour later their players wer seen partying in the dressing room . Tells u how seriously they took it

Zaheer Abbas got big runs in county cricket & against England n test cricket but was badly exposed against Australian & West Indies pace attack . Graeme Hick was monster in county cricket but did not deliver in test cricket

We will never know for sure how good Barry Richards wud have ben against West Indies pace attack in Jamaica & Barbados. Or how he wud have fared against Bedi / Prasanna / Chandrasekhar on Indian pitches

Its not Barry Richards' fault but to rate him along side players who actually played 100+ tests in all conditions is tad unfair

The vast majority of players who played WSC say it was extremely competitive. You should watch some and make up your own mind
Richards scored runs against top level pace in FC/WSC cricket - Abbas never did
Playing top quality spin is the one question about Richards' ability, but people who saw him play rated him extremely highly vs spin bowling

In response to your last statement, how would Richards rank against Carl Hooper

 

[NishanKonar]

The vast majority of players who played WSC say it was extremely competitive. You should watch some and make up your own mind
Richards scored runs against top level pace in FC/WSC cricket - Abbas never did
Playing top quality spin is the one question about Richards' ability, but people who saw him play rated him extremely highly vs spin bowling

In response to your last statement, how would Richards rank against Carl Hooper

Barry Richards never played even once against top class spinner on dusty Asian pitch - so we will never know

Coming to Carl Hooper - he was talented batsman who simply never made the most of his ability. An excellent example of an under-achiever !

 

[NishanKonar]

The vast majority of players who played WSC say it was extremely competitive. You should watch some and make up your own mind
Richards scored runs against top level pace in FC/WSC cricket - Abbas never did
Playing top quality spin is the one question about Richards' ability, but people who saw him play rated him extremely highly vs spin bowling

In response to your last statement, how would Richards rank against Carl Hooper

If u actually see Barry Richards in WSC - he rarely actually faced all those top pace attacks. A big chunk of his runs came against not so great bowlers

Like Barry scored 207 in 1 game. The bowling attack was Lilee , Gilmour, Walker & Bright. Barring Lilee none of the others wud be called world class . Gilour played 15 test & Walker played 34 in all. In fact all top 3 batsmen got big tons - tells u how flat the pitch was. Lilee himself said the WSC never felt like real test cricket

This whole WSC was toughest cricket was largely PR to make it look good. Coz the rest of the world derided it as a circus & exhibition matches

 

[Robert]

Barry Richards is possibly the most overrated batsman of all time.

Smashed all the great quicks in WSC. Hit Peak Lillee on the up like he was a medium pacer. When he played for Hampshire he made John Snow and Derek Underwood look rubbish.

 

[NishanKonar]

Here are some stats from Barry Richards record in WSC

He played 5 tests & scored 2 tons & 2fifties in WSC

First Ton against this bowling attacks
Denis Lilee - 70 tests definitely ATG
Max Walker - 34 test
Gary Gilmour - 15 tests
Ray Bright - 25 tests

2nd ton against this pace attack
Denis Lilee
Len Poscoe - 14 test
Gary Gilmour - 15 tests
Ray Bright - 25 tests

1 ATG + 3 journeyman cricketers in each bowling attack

Is this really the toughest cricket ever !

 

[therealAB]

Barry Richards never played even once against top class spinner on dusty Asian pitch - so we will never know

Coming to Carl Hooper - he was talented batsman who simply never made the most of his ability. An excellent example of an under-achiever !

That was exactly my point regarding Richards' playing of spin. he has no failures, but we cannot conclusively say he was a great player of spin.
My Hooper argument was that just because a batsmen experienced more conditions does not mean they are better - say Slater vs Richards



Would you say Carl Hooper

 

[Robert]

Looking at the 1982 side that SA could have fielded....

Richards
Cook
Kirsten
Pollock
Lamb
Rice (c)
Proctor
Kourie (w)
Le Roux
Van der Bijl
Traicos

That’s killer fast bowling, which played maybe five tests between it?

 

[NishanKonar]

Looking at the 1982 side that SA could have fielded....

Richards
Cook
Kirsten
Pollock
Lamb
Rice (c)
Proctor
Kourie (w)
Le Roux
Van der Bijl
Traicos

That’s killer fast bowling, which played maybe five tests between it?

The South Africans could not play bcoz hey wer banned

The Australian bpwlers played less bcoz they were not good enough. Ray Bright , Poscoe , Walker played first class cricket till 80s but played only handful of tests bcoz they were not good enough

 

[NishanKonar]

That was exactly my point regarding Richards' playing of spin. he has no failures, but we cannot conclusively say he was a great player of spin.
My Hooper argument was that just because a batsmen experienced more conditions does not mean they are better - say Slater vs Richards



Would you say Carl Hooper

Carl Hooper is not in the discussion bcoz he was never that good enough

But I wud rate Alan Lamb / Gooch / Border ahead of Barry - bcoz they actually played in all conditions & in general delivered

 

[Gilly]

Smashed all the great quicks in WSC. Hit Peak Lillee on the up like he was a medium pacer. When he played for Hampshire he made John Snow and Derek Underwood look rubbish.

You have bestowed greatness on many quicks.

 

[Junaids]

Barry Richards never played even once against top class spinner on dusty Asian pitch - so we will never know

Coming to Carl Hooper - he was talented batsman who simply never made the most of his ability. An excellent example of an under-achiever !

Actually he did - he played against Bishan Bedi at Wantage Rd - and murdered him.

And he also dismantled Derek Underwood at home and away when he was the world's best spinner.

 

[Junaids]

Here are some stats from Barry Richards record in WSC

He played 5 tests & scored 2 tons & 2fifties in WSC

First Ton against this bowling attacks
Denis Lilee - 70 tests definitely ATG
Max Walker - 34 test
Gary Gilmour - 15 tests
Ray Bright - 25 tests

2nd ton against this pace attack
Denis Lilee
Len Poscoe - 14 test
Gary Gilmour - 15 tests
Ray Bright - 25 tests

1 ATG + 3 journeyman cricketers in each bowling attack

Is this really the toughest cricket ever !

Just because you are not familiar with the greats of that era doesn't mean that they were not greats.

Max Walker had a Test bowling average of 27.47, and won a series in the West Indies when Lillee broke his back.

Gary Gilmour averaged 26.03 in Tests. He also is the greatest bowler in World Cup history: he took 6-14 in the 1975 semi-final then 4 days later took 5-40 in the Final.

Lennie Pascoe averaged 26.06 in Tests and was faster than Lillee - and Lillee was measured at 154.8K in 1976.

 

[NishanKonar]

Just because you are not familiar with the greats of that era doesn't mean that they were not greats.

Max Walker had a Test bowling average of 27.47, and won a series in the West Indies when Lillee broke his back.

Gary Gilmour averaged 26.03 in Tests. He also is the greatest bowler in World Cup history: he took 6-14 in the 1975 semi-final then 4 days later took 5-40 in the Final.

Lennie Pascoe averaged 26.06 in Tests and was faster than Lillee - and Lillee was measured at 154.8K in 1976.

Lol. This is how every past player is over exaggerated & over glorified as if everyone was Lilee & Marshall

 

[Harsh Thakor]

Just because you are not familiar with the greats of that era doesn't mean that they were not greats.

Max Walker had a Test bowling average of 27.47, and won a series in the West Indies when Lillee broke his back.

Gary Gilmour averaged 26.03 in Tests. He also is the greatest bowler in World Cup history: he took 6-14 in the 1975 semi-final then 4 days later took 5-40 in the Final.

Lennie Pascoe averaged 26.06 in Tests and was faster than Lillee - and Lillee was measured at 154.8K in 1976.

Would a World South African test XI have overpowered a West Indies or Australian full strength team in the era of World Series Cricket?Great all rounders and batsmen but match pace bowling?

 

[Harsh Thakor]

Australia XI

Morris
Hayden
Bradman
Chappell
AB
Miller
Gilchrist
Lindwall
Warne
Lillee
McGrath

If it’s a spin wicket bring in Grimmett or O’Reilly or Benaud. Saffers are not great at batting against wrist spin so two of these would get them out.

Barbados XI

Greenidge
Haynes
Hunte
Weeks
Worrall
Sobers
Walcott
Marshall
Daniel
Garner
Hall

Would you rate All-time West Indies or Australasia teams better than South Africa?More balanced bowling attacks?

 

[NishanKonar]

Over exxageration is actualy rue for most sports but in crickeet its nauseating

Literally everyone who played in 70s & 80s are heraled as ATGs. If Poscoe & Walker were playing today they wud struggle to even break into this curreent australian team

but bcoz they played 20-30 tests in 70s & 80s - they wer all time greats !

 

[Harsh Thakor]

Without a doubt, without a doubt.

The most talented, destructive and all-round team any nation can ever field.

The amount of talent and skill that Barry, Pollock, ABDV, Proctor and Donald possessed is manmoth and incomparable.

1990s - 2nd best team
2000s- 2nd best team
2010s- 2nd best team

The most consistent 2nd best team of last three decades by a mile.

Better than all-time Australia or West Indies?

 

[James]

Over exxageration is actualy rue for most sports but in crickeet its nauseating

Literally everyone who played in 70s & 80s are heraled as ATGs. If Poscoe & Walker were playing today they wud struggle to even break into this curreent australian team

but bcoz they played 20-30 tests in 70s & 80s - they wer all time greats !

Barry Richards didn’t even do that. He played in one Test series. Of four matches. At home.

And yet the suggestion that Richards is anything less than a South African great or a global cricketing great, deserving of a place in an all-time South Africa XI or even an all-time World XI, is met with derisory sneers from blokes over 60 and would earn you a severe thumping in a Durban pub.

It’s endemic of a wider problem in cricket where players of past eras (particularly those from western cultures) get vastly overrated due to nostalgia and elitism, both in of themselves and also in comparison to current or more recent era players.

 

[Junaids]

Would a World South African test XI have overpowered a West Indies or Australian full strength team in the era of World Series Cricket?Great all rounders and batsmen but match pace bowling?

South Africa had a superior pace attack to the West Indies or Australia in the late 1970's.

Mike Procter took 14 wickets in 4 SuperTests at 16.07 and was Number 2 in the SuperTest averages
Garth Le Roux took 17 wickets in 3 SuperTests at 15.88 and was extremely fast, he was Number 1 in the averages.
(Third was Imran averaging 20.84, fourth was Holding averaging 23.08)
Fifth was Clive Rice averaging 24.14.

So three of the top 5 world bowlers in SuperTests were South African pace bowlers. And Vince Van Der Bijl couldn't get the time off from his employer, and he was the best South African quick of the era.

We know from what happened a few years later with the rebel tours that at that time the probable South African Test eleven was:

1. Jimmy Cook
2. Barry Richards
3. Peter Kirsten
4. Graeme Pollock
5. Allan Lamb
6. Clive Rice
7. Mike Procter
8. Ray Jennings (wk)
9. Garth Le Roux
10. John Traicos or Denys Hobson
11. Vintcent Van Der Bijl

The West Indies overtook Australia as a Test team in around 1977. But Richards/Pollock/Procter had massacred Australia 7 years earlier, and with Rice and Van Der Bijl replacing weaker players I think the gulf between South Africa and Australia had actually widened through the 1970s.

I think it was only with the emergence of Malcolm Marshall and the ageing of Richards, Pollock and Procter that South Africa would have been overtaken by the West Indies around 1983.

 

[Junaids]

Again, just for the record:

Garth Le Roux was Man of the Series in SuperTest World Series Cricket.

He took 59 wickets in 15 rebel Tests at 23.06 in addition to 17 wickets in 3 SuperTests at 15.88.

Clive Rice was at least as good a pace bowling all-rounder as Imran Khan, Kapil Dev, Ian Botham and Richard Hadlee. He actually captained Hadlee at Nottinghamshire, and his final First Class records were:

26,331 runs at 40.95
930 wickets at 22.49

All of us who watched the great all-rounders from 1977-1983 (Imran, Rice, Botham, Kapil Dev, Hadlee) know that Rice was the best batsman of the five and the fastest bowler of the five, but he got less lateral movement than the other four.

 

[Harsh Thakor]

South Africa had a superior pace attack to the West Indies or Australia in the late 1970's.

Mike Procter took 14 wickets in 4 SuperTests at 16.07 and was Number 2 in the SuperTest averages
Garth Le Roux took 17 wickets in 3 SuperTests at 15.88 and was extremely fast, he was Number 1 in the averages.
(Third was Imran averaging 20.84, fourth was Holding averaging 23.08)
Fifth was Clive Rice averaging 24.14.

So three of the top 5 world bowlers in SuperTests were South African pace bowlers. And Vince Van Der Bijl couldn't get the time off from his employer, and he was the best South African quick of the era.

We know from what happened a few years later with the rebel tours that at that time the probable South African Test eleven was:

1. Jimmy Cook
2. Barry Richards
3. Peter Kirsten
4. Graeme Pollock
5. Allan Lamb
6. Clive Rice
7. Mike Procter
8. Ray Jennings (wk)
9. Garth Le Roux
10. John Traicos or Denys Hobson
11. Vintcent Van Der Bijl

The West Indies overtook Australia as a Test team in around 1977. But Richards/Pollock/Procter had massacred Australia 7 years earlier, and with Rice and Van Der Bijl replacing weaker players I think the gulf between South Africa and Australia had actually widened through the 1970s.

I think it was only with the emergence of Malcolm Marshall and the ageing of Richards, Pollock and Procter that South Africa would have been overtaken by the West Indies around 1983.

Would the best South African team beat the best Aussie and West Indies test teams of last 50 years like those led by Ian Chappel,Steve Waugh and Clive Lloyd?

 

[NishanKonar]

Barry Richards didn’t even do that. He played in one Test series. Of four matches. At home.

And yet the suggestion that Richards is anything less than a South African great or a global cricketing great, deserving of a place in an all-time South Africa XI or even an all-time World XI, is met with derisory sneers from blokes over 60 and would earn you a severe thumping in a Durban pub.

It’s endemic of a wider problem in cricket where players of past eras (particularly those from western cultures) get vastly overrated due to nostalgia and elitism, both in of themselves and also in comparison to current or more recent era players.

Thats my point. If you argue with facts / stats they will say they actually watched them live - so their word is the law. Its like I will tell my future kids that Prasad & Srinath were all time greats -bcoz I actually saw them play . Also Srinath took loads of wickets in 1 season of County cricket - so he definitely the best. This is the way these guys argue

Now they are saying Clive Rice is better than Kapil, Imran , Botham , Hadlee. This is so laughable.

In future some random club cricketer from South Africa from the 70s will be better than Bradman !

 

[sam_ahm]

Ah! difficult to say that, but certainly a very strong team.

 

[Junaids]

Thats my point. If you argue with facts / stats they will say they actually watched them live - so their word is the law. Its like I will tell my future kids that Prasad & Srinath were all time greats -bcoz I actually saw them play . Also Srinath took loads of wickets in 1 season of County cricket - so he definitely the best. This is the way these guys argue

Now they are saying Clive Rice is better than Kapil, Imran , Botham , Hadlee. This is so laughable.

In future some random club cricketer from South Africa from the 70s will be better than Bradman !

Many of us watched these players week in, week out in England every summer.

I can assure you, Clive Rice was not Richard Hadlee's junior partner at Notts.

You would literally not find anyone who would rank him below the other 4 great all-rounders of that era.

Similarly, Garth Le Roux played alongside Imran Khan at Sussex. And again, both were considered to be top class bowlers there.

Le Roux took 393 wickets at 23.16 in 137 First Class matches for Sussex.

Imran took 409 wickets at 19.97 in 131 First Class matches for Sussex.

I'm not suggesting that Le Roux was a cricketer up in the Rice / Procter class. I'm saying that South Africa had four international class quicks in the late 1970s in Procter - Rice - Van Der Bijl - Le Roux. That's an ATG pace atatck.

 

[NishanKonar]

Many of us watched these players week in, week out in England every summer.

I can assure you, Clive Rice was not Richard Hadlee's junior partner at Notts.

You would literally not find anyone who would rank him below the other 4 great all-rounders of that era.

Similarly, Garth Le Roux played alongside Imran Khan at Sussex. And again, both were considered to be top class bowlers there.

Le Roux took 393 wickets at 23.16 in 137 First Class matches for Sussex.

Imran took 409 wickets at 19.97 in 131 First Class matches for Sussex.

I'm not suggesting that Le Roux was a cricketer up in the Rice / Procter class. I'm saying that South Africa had four international class quicks in the late 1970s in Procter - Rice - Van Der Bijl - Le Roux. That's an ATG pace atatck.

I have literally not met anybody who says Clive Rice is in the league of Hadlee / Botham / Imran / Kapil

Van der Bijl was like 1 county season player. We are not even talking of Barry / Pollock / Procter who at least played some test cricket. We are now elevating county cricketer to all time great status !

Dont throw county records. History is replete with players who wer extraordinary in county cricket but never delivered at highest level - HIck, Ramprakash

 

[Junaids]

Thats my point. If you argue with facts / stats they will say they actually watched them live - so their word is the law.

No, I've disproved your argument both ways.

You belittled a bowling attack of Lillee- Pascoe - Gilmour - Walker.

I told you how good they were - notably Gilmour as the GOAT World Cup bowler.

And then I listed their Test bowling averages:

Lillee 23.92
Pascoe 26.06
Gilmour 26.03
Walker 27.47

Suddenly Test records didn't count for you.

I did the same with Procter and Barry Richards:

Test record to 1970
Barry Richards batting average 72.60
Mike Procter bowling average 15.02

WSC SuperTest record 1977-78
Barry Richards batting average 79.14
Mike Procter bowling average 16.02

You really don't seem to like numbers much.

 

[AAli98]

When I look through history South Africa nurtured some of the most outstanding talent ever created on a cricket field.In junctures it was arguably the best test team in the world.I am here selecting an all-time South African XI and comparing it with the best of all-time XI's.





Barry Richards

Graeme Smith (C)

Hashim Amla

Graeme Pollock

Jacques Kallis

AB Devilliers (W)

Mike Procter

Shaun Pollock

Dale Steyn

Alan Donald

Hugh Tayfield







Notable no all-time test XI has so many great all rounders.Kallis was like a Sobers of his day while Procter was after retirement of Sobers the best all-rounder of the 1970's.Dale Steyn statistically compared to the best fast bowlers of all while Alan Donlad in term sf pure skill was in the class of a Lillee or Marshall.Both had devastating speed.Shaun Pollock was close to the best of all medium pacers with his remarkable avergae of around 21 and 400 scalps.He also was an effective batsman.Devilliers was like a Viv Richards of his time being the most explosive and imaginative batsman of his time.Hashim Amla averaged around 50 for most of his career and wa sthe ultimate man to stick t out in the middle or grind .Graeme Pollock had the 2nd highest test avergae after Bradman then,who took batting inventiveness to region of the sublime.Arguably an equal of a Viv or Lara.Barry Richards was arguably the best of all opening batsman and in the allround sense the most complete or perfect.Like a Sunil Gavaskar and Brian Lara rolled into one.No batsmen ever blended attacking skill with such technical correctness as Barry.Graeme Smith could compile batting classics and was one of the game's best ever captains.Statistically Hugh Tayfield is one of the great spin bowlers of all time considering his era .





The batting superbly blends solidity or staying power with attacking agression or ability to tear apart opponents.It has 2 great bowling and one great batting all-rounder .It blends extreme pace with seam movement and effective spin in the bowling attack.Also a great fielding side.



I would possibly back it to be the most balanced all-time test XI of all-edging even West Indies and Australia.The allrounders and fielding is the crucial factor as well as opening batsman.

There’s only 1 coloured player in that team so by SA rules this team is void unless you add Temba Bavuma or Maharaj ko Kai ho in there.

 

[Robert]

I have literally not met anybody who says Clive Rice is in the league of Hadlee / Botham / Imran / Kapil

Before his back injury slowed Rice down from fast to medium he was in that league, and certainly the best batter of the five.

 

[Junaids]

I have literally not met anybody who says Clive Rice is in the league of Hadlee / Botham / Imran / Kapil

Van der Bijl was like 1 county season player. We are not even talking of Barry / Pollock / Procter who at least played some test cricket. We are now elevating county cricketer to all time great status !

Dont throw county records. History is replete with players who wer extraordinary in county cricket but never delivered at highest level - HIck, Ramprakash

Hick and Ramprakash played county cricket whn only 1 overseas player allowed per team - that's why Hick chose to play for England. The standard was weak then.

When Rice played for Nottinghamshire, his opening attack was himself and Hadlee, with Dilip Doshi as the spinner.

At the same time, Gloucestershire had Sadiq Mohammad and Zaheer Abbas, with Procter opening the bowling.

Hampshire had the greatest opening pair in cricket history - Greenidge and Barry Richards - with Andy Roberts opening the bowling.

I understand that people of your age have no easy way to learn how great Clive Rice was.

Let me just give you one example.

Notts played against Hampshire, and Malcolm Marshall, in July 1981 - Botham's summer.

Consider this scorecard:

Notts 143 all out
Rice 105 not out,
Marshall 4-32

Hampshire 190 all out
Hadlee 4-59
Rice 4-50

Notts 99 all out
Hadlee 40
Marshall 5-64

Hampshire 53-1

Clive Rice was not Richard Hadlee's junior partner. He was an absolute world class cricketer, and it's only because of Apartheid that he hasn't got the fame to support it.

 

[Robert]

Would you rate All-time West Indies or Australasia teams better than South Africa?More balanced bowling attacks?

ATG AUS side - yes because they had Warne.

ATB WI side - Marshall, Roberts, Holding, Ambrose, Gibbs, with Sobers helping - probably equal to SA.

 

[Junaids]

Incidentally, when Rice hit that 105 not out in a total of 143 all out:

- other batsmen in the team included Basharat Hassan, Hadlee and Tim Robinson.
- the next highest score after his 105 not out was 10. TEN!

I didn't much like the late Clive Rice as a human being. I found him a rather hard individual, and I considered his public opposition to Apartheid to be rather weak at a time when he could have been the most powerful voice in the country opposing it.

But he was an absolute God of cricket. I think most of us who watched cricket in the late 70s and early 80s rank the great all-rounders as follows:

1. Mike Procter
2 = Clive Rice, Imran Khan
4. Ian Botham
5. Richard Hadlee
6. Kapil Dev

The Botham position is difficult. The Jubilee Test in Bombay in 1980 showed that at his best he was far superior to Kapil Dev - by a comically vast margin.

But Botham abused his body, and followed 4 great years with 10 mediocre ones. His peak was second only to Procter in that group, but his declining years were not great.

 

[Junaids]

Would the best South African team beat the best Aussie and West Indies test teams of last 50 years like those led by Ian Chappel,Steve Waugh and Clive Lloyd?

I'm going to challenge [MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION] with this.

So not a composite team, but each country's best ever team?

So:

1. Jimmy Cook v Hayden v Greenidge
2. Barry Richards v Langer v Haynes
3. Peter Kirsten v Ponting v Gomes
4. Graeme Pollock v M Waugh v Richardson
5. Allan Lamb v Martyn v Viv Richards
6. Clive Rice v S Waugh v Clive Lloyd
7. Ray Jennings v Gilchrist v Dujon
8. Mike Procter v Jason Gillespie v Malcolm Marshall
9. Vince Van Der Bijl v McGrath v Joel Garner
10. John Traicos v Shane Warne v Andy Roberts
11. Garth Le Roux v Brett Lee v Michael Holding

I think that South Africa has the strongest batting by some margin. The pace attacks are well-matched although Brett Lee is clearly the worst player out of the 33 on display.

I would rate South Africa as strong favourites simply because Rice and Procter mean that they are effectively a 13 man team against a 12 man Australia (Gilchrist) and a 11 men West Indies.

Then again, I have a sneaking suspicion that Warne's leg-spin would be something very alien to several of the South African batsmen.

 

[Ab Fan]

Better than all-time Australia or West Indies?

If we restrict our analysis to last 50-60 years and compare all time WI XI Vs SA XI comparison, then here we go:-

G Smith(c) = G Greenidge
B Richards >> D Haynes
Kallis = Viv( Kallis with 296 wickets)
G Pollock = Lara
AB de Villiers( wkt) > Lloyd(c) ( as batsman, as captain compare with Smith)
Amla >>> Dujjon( wkt)
Proctor < Sobers
S Pollock > Holding
Steyn < Marshall
Donald = Ambrose
Rabada = Garner

Overall, SA 4-2 West Indies.

Against Australia, it will be roughly equal.

 

[Junaids]

If we restrict our analysis to last 50-60 years and compare all time WI XI Vs SA XI comparison, then here we go:-

G Smith(c) = G Greenidge
B Richards >> D Haynes
Kallis = Viv( Kallis with 296 wickets)
G Pollock = Lara
AB de Villiers( wkt) > Lloyd(c) ( as batsman, as captain compare with Smith)
Amla >>> Dujjon( wkt)
Proctor < Sobers
S Pollock > Holding
Steyn < Marshall
Donald = Ambrose
Rabada = Garner

Overall, SA 4-2 West Indies.

Against Australia, it will be roughly equal.

One subtle point.

I don’t think you can compare Procter and Sobers. It’s Kallis and Sobers who were very similar, as batsmen who could be an extra pace bowler, but with an average the wrong side of 30.

Also, Ambrose and Garner are too similar to play together, so I don’t think you’d select Ambrose - you’d pick Roberts in theory or even Bishop on the basis that before his fractures he was the best of the lot.

I’d go a different way. The Blackwash team of 1984 featured Eldine Baptiste as a fast-medium all-rounder, but no one would seriously pick him ahead of the banned Franklyn Stephenson. I’d bat Dujon at 7, Stephenson at 8, Marshall at 9, Holding at 10 and Garner at 11. Sobers is my sole spinner, and also my fifth quick bowler.

In Asia I would drop Holding in favour of Lance Gibbs.

 

[Hitman]

Barry Richards is possibly the most overrated batsman of all time.

Agreed. I don't care how talented he was, the guy played 4 Test matches (not his fault). And some fans treat him like he is some type of a batting God. His achievement in international cricket is a big fat ZERO.

 

[Dark Magician]

What this thread shows is that South Africans don't have enough people online making noise for them. We'd rather get on with it and play cricket.

 

[Buffet]

SA all-time XI will come behind all-time XI of WI/Aus. SA had some really great players, but they did not play enough international cricket and without playing enough international cricket, it is not fair to make claims about the absolute best in the entire history of cricket.

 

[Ab Fan]

One subtle point.

I don’t think you can compare Procter and Sobers. It’s Kallis and Sobers who were very similar, as batsmen who could be an extra pace bowler, but with an average the wrong side of 30.

Also, Ambrose and Garner are too similar to play together, so I don’t think you’d select Ambrose - you’d pick Roberts in theory or even Bishop on the basis that before his fractures he was the best of the lot.

I’d go a different way. The Blackwash team of 1984 featured Eldine Baptiste as a fast-medium all-rounder, but no one would seriously pick him ahead of the banned Franklyn Stephenson. I’d bat Dujon at 7, Stephenson at 8, Marshall at 9, Holding at 10 and Garner at 11. Sobers is my sole spinner, and also my fifth quick bowler.

In Asia I would drop Holding in favour of Lance Gibbs.

I would drop Garner to bring Andy Roberts and persist with Ambrose. Ambrose is Windies second best bowler ever IMO.

 

[Harsh Thakor]

SA all-time XI will come behind all-time XI of WI/Aus. SA had some really great players, but they did not play enough international cricket and without playing enough international cricket, it is not fair to make claims about the absolute best in the entire history of cricket.

At least on paper at the top?In terms of pure quality?No team had more great allrounders .Feel AUS/WI teams had more talent in batting and bowling?

 

[Harsh Thakor]

One subtle point.

I don’t think you can compare Procter and Sobers. It’s Kallis and Sobers who were very similar, as batsmen who could be an extra pace bowler, but with an average the wrong side of 30.

Also, Ambrose and Garner are too similar to play together, so I don’t think you’d select Ambrose - you’d pick Roberts in theory or even Bishop on the basis that before his fractures he was the best of the lot.

I’d go a different way. The Blackwash team of 1984 featured Eldine Baptiste as a fast-medium all-rounder, but no one would seriously pick him ahead of the banned Franklyn Stephenson. I’d bat Dujon at 7, Stephenson at 8, Marshall at 9, Holding at 10 and Garner at 11. Sobers is my sole spinner, and also my fifth quick bowler.

In Asia I would drop Holding in favour of Lance Gibbs.

Sobers no doubt the great match-winner or more capable of turning a game.Procter in the Botham or Imran class.Always Ambrose instead of Garner,who was more volatile,hostile or explosive and more penetrative.Ambrose was the best match winner amongst paceman in 4th innings.

 

[Harsh Thakor]

Looking at the 1982 side that SA could have fielded....

Richards
Cook
Kirsten
Pollock
Lamb
Rice (c)
Proctor
Kourie (w)
Le Roux
Van der Bijl
Traicos

That’s killer fast bowling, which played maybe five tests between it?

Arguably best team before the rise of West Indies from 1983?Would have beaten the Australian team after 1976-77.Maybe even WSC Aussie team led by Ian Chappell with its allrounders?

 

[Harsh Thakor]

If we restrict our analysis to last 50-60 years and compare all time WI XI Vs SA XI comparison, then here we go:-

G Smith(c) = G Greenidge
B Richards >> D Haynes
Kallis = Viv( Kallis with 296 wickets)
G Pollock = Lara
AB de Villiers( wkt) > Lloyd(c) ( as batsman, as captain compare with Smith)
Amla >>> Dujjon( wkt)
Proctor < Sobers
S Pollock > Holding
Steyn < Marshall
Donald = Ambrose
Rabada = Garner

Overall, SA 4-2 West Indies.

Against Australia, it will be roughly equal.

Was not Viv as a batsman a greater match-winner than Kallis?Holding a better paceman in terms of skill than Pollock who was fast -medium?Garner had abetter record than Rabada and more accurate.Ambrose a better match-winner than Donald.Lara was certainly more proven than Pollock and had more flair.

How would you compare All-Time Australia?

Did you like my analysis?

 

[Harsh Thakor]

South Africa had a superior pace attack to the West Indies or Australia in the late 1970's.

Mike Procter took 14 wickets in 4 SuperTests at 16.07 and was Number 2 in the SuperTest averages
Garth Le Roux took 17 wickets in 3 SuperTests at 15.88 and was extremely fast, he was Number 1 in the averages.
(Third was Imran averaging 20.84, fourth was Holding averaging 23.08)
Fifth was Clive Rice averaging 24.14.

So three of the top 5 world bowlers in SuperTests were South African pace bowlers. And Vince Van Der Bijl couldn't get the time off from his employer, and he was the best South African quick of the era.

We know from what happened a few years later with the rebel tours that at that time the probable South African Test eleven was:

1. Jimmy Cook
2. Barry Richards
3. Peter Kirsten
4. Graeme Pollock
5. Allan Lamb
6. Clive Rice
7. Mike Procter
8. Ray Jennings (wk)
9. Garth Le Roux
10. John Traicos or Denys Hobson
11. Vintcent Van Der Bijl

The West Indies overtook Australia as a Test team in around 1977. But Richards/Pollock/Procter had massacred Australia 7 years earlier, and with Rice and Van Der Bijl replacing weaker players I think the gulf between South Africa and Australia had actually widened through the 1970s.

I think it was only with the emergence of Malcolm Marshall and the ageing of Richards, Pollock and Procter that South Africa would have been overtaken by the West Indies around 1983.

Deeply appreciate your criteria Analytical asessment.However still not as many proven match-winners like the Aussie and Calypsos.Potentially you are correct.

 

[Chrish]

G Smith (c)
Gary Kirsten
Hashim Amla
Kallis
Abdv
Dudley Nourse
Mark Boucher
Shaun Pollock
Hugh Tayfield
Dale Steyn
Allan Donald

 

[Harsh Thakor]

Barry Richards legacy is just based on 1 test series where he scored 500 + runs against a weak Australian bowling attack past their prime

He scored prolific in county cricket & WSC but quality of that cricket is definitely questionable. Even Denis Lilee once said that those WSC super tests did not feel like real test cricket . It always felt more like circus . This whole " WSC was toughest cricket " was more marketing PR than actual truth. More like Shane Warne saying a Yusuf Pathan century in IPL was best bating he ever saw ! In 1 WSC game, West Indies got out for 50 odd & half an hour later their players wer seen partying in the dressing room . Tells u how seriously they took it

Zaheer Abbas got big runs in county cricket & against England n test cricket but was badly exposed against Australian & West Indies pace attack . Graeme Hick was monster in county cricket but did not deliver in test cricket

We will never know for sure how good Barry Richards wud have ben against West Indies pace attack in Jamaica & Barbados. Or how he wud have fared against Bedi / Prasanna / Chandrasekhar on Indian pitches

Its not Barry Richards' fault but to rate him along side players who actually played 100+ tests in all conditions is tad unfair

Wish to correct you.Facing the best pace bowling in WSC supertests he scored a 207 and unbeaten 125 and topped batting averages ,averaging 79.Read what the likes of Lille and Thomson say about bowling to Barry.True he never played in India but demolished great spin on English tracks.Not a joke to overshadow even Viv Richards in 2 WSC supertests.Morally maybe even ahead of Gavaskar.

 

[Harsh Thakor]

South Africa had a superior pace attack to the West Indies or Australia in the late 1970's.

Mike Procter took 14 wickets in 4 SuperTests at 16.07 and was Number 2 in the SuperTest averages
Garth Le Roux took 17 wickets in 3 SuperTests at 15.88 and was extremely fast, he was Number 1 in the averages.
(Third was Imran averaging 20.84, fourth was Holding averaging 23.08)
Fifth was Clive Rice averaging 24.14.

So three of the top 5 world bowlers in SuperTests were South African pace bowlers. And Vince Van Der Bijl couldn't get the time off from his employer, and he was the best South African quick of the era.

We know from what happened a few years later with the rebel tours that at that time the probable South African Test eleven was:

1. Jimmy Cook
2. Barry Richards
3. Peter Kirsten
4. Graeme Pollock
5. Allan Lamb
6. Clive Rice
7. Mike Procter
8. Ray Jennings (wk)
9. Garth Le Roux
10. John Traicos or Denys Hobson
11. Vintcent Van Der Bijl

The West Indies overtook Australia as a Test team in around 1977. But Richards/Pollock/Procter had massacred Australia 7 years earlier, and with Rice and Van Der Bijl replacing weaker players I think the gulf between South Africa and Australia had actually widened through the 1970s.

I think it was only with the emergence of Malcolm Marshall and the ageing of Richards, Pollock and Procter that South Africa would have been overtaken by the West Indies around 1983.

Would you have backed South Africa to win on the sub-continent like Lloyd's men did in 1983-84 in India?Imran led Pakistan team in same class as Proteas?

 

[Harsh Thakor]

Hard to say as we never saw the full career of some of their greats. Sustaining excellence is different than having a few great seasons. I don't mean at all that they would become bad players, just they might have been figured out a bit or gone off the hot streak like so many others do. The difference between great & merely excellent.

There's guys like Barry Richards & Mike Proctor in there who just can't be assessed as great. I'd offer a couple of examples as to why- if you take the first 3 years of Mike Hussey's career he'd be averaging 80 in Tests & you'd say he's an atg. But really, he was just excellent & isn't close to making any all time Oz XI's. If you look at the first couple of years of Brett Lee's career, before his elbow surgery you'd assume he'd be an unplayable fast bowling destroyer, averaging about 15 in Tests... but over time careers pan out differently.

So yes but they excelled in FC cricket... so what. So did Graham Hick & Mark Ramprakash & neither of those was even close to being a good Test player. FC cricket just isn't the same battleground.

So I can rate SA as a strong all time team, but to me, no, it is not even close to the great WI or OZ lineups.

On sheer class or individual ability SA not ahead of AUS/WI teams?Not as good match-winners?

 

[Harsh Thakor]

Australian team

Hayden
S Smith
Bradman
Ponting
Waugh S
Gilchrist
Miller
Cummins
Warne
Lillee
McGrath

Every base covered.

Why no Greg Chapell?Ray Lindwall?South Africa certainly has a better set of allrounders.

 

[Ab Fan]

Was not Viv as a batsman a greater match-winner than Kallis?Holding a better paceman in terms of skill than Pollock who was fast -medium?Garner had abetter record than Rabada and more accurate.Ambrose a better match-winner than Donald.Lara was certainly more proven than Pollock and had more flair.

How would you compare All-Time Australia?

Did you like my analysis?

Viv is a greater match winner than Kallis, no doubt. But in a XI, their overall utility plays a part. Kallis gives basically another bowling option and with 296 wickets, he sits right up there at same level to Viv. It is overall utility. Kapil and Anderson are about equal but Kapil gives you basically a no.7 batsman too.

Same applies for Pollock with bat and Pollock was a genuine match winner with bowl too, averaged like 20 till about 300 test wickets. Brilliant record in tough subcontinent wickets as well.

Rabada is a leader of the attack while Garner was good support bowler.

Let's compare with Australian XI, again last 50-60 years because overall with Bradman in their team, it's not even a debate any longer.

Hayden = G Smith
Langer < Barry Richards
S Smith = Kallis
Chappell = Pollock
AB = AB
S Waugh = Proctor
Gilchrist > Amla
Cummins = Rabada
Warne = Pollock( including Pollock batting)
Lillee = Donald
McGrath = Steyn

So, about 1-1 in my opinion.

To put things together,

1. Aus = SA
3. West Indies
4. India
5. Pakistan
6. England
7. New Zealand
8. Sri Lanka
9. Zimbabwe
10. Bangladesh
11. Afghanistan
12. Ireland

 

[Harsh Thakor]

No, Aus and WI are better

Barry Richards
Graeme Smith (C)
Jacques Kallis
Graeme Pollock
Dudley Nourse (>>Amla)
AB Devilliers (W)
Mike Procter
Shaun Pollock
Dale Steyn
Alan Donald
Hugh Tayfield

Keeping with DeVilliers is questionable but whatever.
Still, Aus produces

Morris
Trumper
Bradman
Smith
Chappell
Miller
Gilchrist
Davidson
Warne
Lillee
McGrath



To compare player to player:
Morris = Smith. Both top tier openers. If you are somebody who believes that old = bad then just use Hayden
Richards = Trumper. Both a bit unproven for different reasons but both considered amongst the very best
Bradman >>> Kallis
Smith >= Pollock
Chappell > Nourse
Gilchrist = De Villiers. One is a better keeper, the other a better batsmen
Miller = Proctor. Look at Millers FC stats for a good comparison
Davidson = Pollock. Very similar players, Davidson a slightly better bowler and Pollock a slightly better batsmen
Warne >> Tayfield
McGrath = Steyn
Lillee = Donald

The Australian team has a major advantage with Bradman and the better spinner. Also a major advantage on the #5 batsmen

WI also better

Fine asessment.Did you like my analysis?Eddie Barlow could have oped for the Proteas who could have been another allrounder.Why no Hashim Amla?Australia more talented but South Africa have many more genuine allrounders.All-round skill of Kallis was only one notch behind that of Bradman .You have fairly compared the paceman though I prefer Mcgrath to Steyn and Lillee to Donald.