Effects of quotas and race-based selection on South Africa cricket

[shaykh]

Just noticed two different claims about Ngidi's background...

Ngidi (his mother is a domestic worker)

Ngidi and Rabada are from incredibly privileged backgrounds, much more so than any of the white players.

They speak perfect English, better than the Afrikaans speaking whites like FAF, AB, De Kock and Steyn.

Ngidi went to the elite boarding school Hilton College. If he hadn’t become an international cricketer he would have become an international Polo player.

 

[Hasan123]

Lol South Africa have lost 2 close games. Been beaten by a much better side. Had 1 rained out game and thrashed a minnow. It hasn't been a good tournament for them. But these threads of South Africa demise is hilarious. They have a strong domestic structure and even in this so called weak era for them they are producing good talent.

Few seniors players will be moved on and they will be replaced .

South African cricket will be fine. Pakistan fans should worry about there own team rather than predicting the demise of a team 3rd in the ODI rankings and a team who beat Australia home and away in tests , and beat number 1 team at home.

 

[marlonbrowndo]

Their performance in this World Cup has nothing to do with race based selection

 

[Abdullah719]

CSA REITERATES COMMITMENT TO TRANSFORMATION

Saturday, 04 January 2020

CRICKET SOUTH AFRICA (CSA) has reiterated its commitment to transformation to bring about equity and fair opportunity for all South Africans.

“It is very heartening to see from the general trend across traditional media and social media platforms that so many South Africans are seeking to defend the gains of our transformation agenda,” commented CSA President Chris Nenzani.

“This is something that goes far beyond the game of cricket. CSA is fully cognizant of the fact that transformation is a very critical strategy in achieving equity in our country.

“Our commitment has been demonstrated in the policies adopted in respect of transformation since February 2013. This commitment remains as central to our governance and operations as it has been over the last few years.

“The transformation agenda at CSA is very clear and is fully understood by all our structures, in particular our members who have the critical responsibility of driving transformation at grassroots level.”

Mr. Nenzani also gave a concise exposition of the transformation policy in respect to the selection of teams.

“Transformation targets have been set for all our teams below the international level that have to be implemented on a game by game basis. This is an obligation to a very important bottom up approach. The CSA Board is mandated to enforce these policies without exception and to take corrective action where non-compliance occurs.

“As far as our national representative teams are concerned the evaluation of the achievement of the targets over a year is meant to give team management the flexibility to select teams based on the unique match to match requirements and in line with obtaining objective realities.”

Mr. Nenzani also stressed the reality that sporting codes can’t undo the wrongs of the past without the support of government institutions.

“Transformation in sport cannot be viewed in isolation of the deepening inequalities within society and as the sole responsibility of sport federations. There is a critical role that the various levels of government must play to bring about equity and fair opportunity to all South Africans. The government, especially at provincial and local government level, has a fundamental responsibility of mitigating the impact of the apartheid geography that finds expression in the skewed spatial distribution of sport facilities areas of our country wherein the disadvantaged communities remain worse off.

“In 2015 a tripartite agreement was signed by the then Department of Sport and Recreation, the Department of Basic Education and CSA. The full implementation of this agreement is yet to be experienced. The state has a critical role in rolling back the legacy of our divided past in sport. As the national federation for cricket, we are committed to our obligation to redress of the past patterns of inequality but we cannot do it alone.”

Mr. Nenzani also expressed his full support to the recent appointments made at operational level.

“The recent appointments do not represent a threat to transformation or the process of Africanisation of cricket in our country. We must all recognize that transformation is not an act of exclusion but one of inclusion informed by the desire to achieve the constitutional ideals of equity, fairness and a non-racial society. CSA remains committed to this vision.

“I urge all of us to engage in a dialogue that advances a systemic and sustainable transformation agenda,” concluded Mr. Nenzani.

 

[Last Monetarist]

There should be dire consequences of this appalling decision by Smith and Boucher to pick Pieter Malan over a non-white player such as Bavuma or even Keegan Petersen.

I would have wholeheartedly understood if they were picking Malan's younger brother in the belief that he will carry South Africa's top-order once Elgar retires, but to pick a journeyman batsman in his thirties who averages 33 in first-class cricket this season is frankly diabolical and only serves as a deliberate slap in the face of the board's transformation commitments.

 

[tyron_woodley]

janneman Malan
Keegan Peitersen
zubair hamza
van der dussen
kyle verrynne
qdk
pretorius or Mulder
mahraj
ngidi
rabada
nortje


that's a solid team.

 

[light]

SA cricket's selection never made any genuine sense to me. They're more interested in filling up a racial quota rather than actually getting the best 11 on the field. It was even more evident during the WC that some of these so called racial quota selection were the weakest link. Selection should never give merit to these type of stupid quota. Bad for the game and the upcoming talent

 

[Ozymandiasza]

There should be dire consequences of this appalling decision by Smith and Boucher to pick Pieter Malan over a non-white player such as Bavuma or even Keegan Petersen.

I would have wholeheartedly understood if they were picking Malan's younger brother in the belief that he will carry South Africa's top-order once Elgar retires, but to pick a journeyman batsman in his thirties who averages 33 in first-class cricket this season is frankly diabolical and only serves as a deliberate slap in the face of the board's transformation commitments.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en-gb"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Has nothing to do with form.. you score one 100 in 5 years you question technique and temperament.. some batsman just can’t cut it at the top level. Just another case of it &#55358;&#56631;*</p>— Herschelle Gibbs (@hershybru) <a href="https://twitter.com/hershybru/status/1213346287417872385?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">4 January 2020</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Last Monetarist]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en-gb"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Has nothing to do with form.. you score one 100 in 5 years you question technique and temperament.. some batsman just can’t cut it at the top level. Just another case of it ��*</p>— Herschelle Gibbs (@hershybru) <a href="https://twitter.com/hershybru/status/1213346287417872385?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">4 January 2020</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

I have no issue with dropping Bavuma for young batsmen such as Janneman Malan or Keegan Petersen, but there's no rationale behind picking a white batsman in his thirties who has no first-class form to speak of this season. Transformation is a sensitive issue clearly, but it's not going away anywhere given South Africa's history.

 

[aloo paratha]

CSA REITERATES COMMITMENT TO TRANSFORMATION

Saturday, 04 January 2020

CRICKET SOUTH AFRICA (CSA) has reiterated its commitment to transformation to bring about equity and fair opportunity for all South Africans.

Yeah so then why don't you just let the management select the best team regardless of race?

 

[ads101]

Until black people become richer in SA, I don't think it's going to change. You have a few privileged black cricketers now entering, who went to the same institutions. Cricket unfortunately is a rich man's sport, facilities are extremely expensive. And unfortunately the difference in average wealth between the white guy and black guy in South Africa is huge.

Wish there was a way to make cricket more accessible to the poor/non-rich. But the advantage they have is just too great, cricket isn't even being played in a lot of the poorer schools. Only way you get around this really is having a cricket mad country like India, Pakistan where cricket is championed as the top sport. These countries play sport anywhere with makeshift bat/equipment, tape ball etc. However hard to introduce that, quite frankly it isn't that safe either. But for most countries this just isn't logical, cricket isn't designed to be accessible. They're going to veer towards sports like football which are easier to play/less expensive, and safer to play in the streets/public.

 

[ads101]

Yeah so then why don't you just let the management select the best team regardless of race?

It's easy to say that but 80% of South Africans are black. White make up just 9%. They have been playing cricket for over 100 years and yet still black cricketers are so few. Black people aren't encouraged to watch or play cricket, and I'm sure it hurts their viewing numbers and making the sport sustainable in SA. In fact pretty sure it's just the rich elite and privileged school institutions keeping it alive.

So I see their desperation. Honestly I don't see much changing in next 100 years with nothing done either. Easiest way to change is having a black cricketer/s who really inspire kids to take up cricket. Similar to a Tendulkar effect. While some of these black cricketers might themselves not be good enough, maybe a South African black kid who is the next Tendulkar, etc. will pick up a bat as a result of seeing other black cricketers on tv.

I'm not sure quota will make a difference. As I said the wealth divide is the main issue, which is really bad in South Africa. But maybe it helps just a little. Instead, if they do nothing, things may never change.

 

[Mirpur express]

The hulk dude he debuted this week is 30 yr old , opener with over 10k first class runs 22 tons!! the quota system messed up his international career .. ps the new saf players coming in are cagey like our players as they want to cement a place in the team hence not being able to play freely

 

[aloo paratha]

The hulk dude he debuted this week is 30 yr old , opener with over 10k first class runs 22 tons!! the quota system messed up his international career .. ps the new saf players coming in are cagey like our players as they want to cement a place in the team hence not being able to play freely

His brother Janneman is even better, aged 23, averages 53 in FC, 45 in List A with a SR of 95, has only played 2 T20s.

 

[aloo paratha]

It's easy to say that but 80% of South Africans are black. White make up just 9%. They have been playing cricket for over 100 years and yet still black cricketers are so few. Black people aren't encouraged to watch or play cricket, and I'm sure it hurts their viewing numbers and making the sport sustainable in SA. In fact pretty sure it's just the rich elite and privileged school institutions keeping it alive.

So I see their desperation. Honestly I don't see much changing in next 100 years with nothing done either. Easiest way to change is having a black cricketer/s who really inspire kids to take up cricket. Similar to a Tendulkar effect. While some of these black cricketers might themselves not be good enough, maybe a South African black kid who is the next Tendulkar, etc. will pick up a bat as a result of seeing other black cricketers on tv.

I'm not sure quota will make a difference. As I said the wealth divide is the main issue, which is really bad in South Africa. But maybe it helps just a little. Instead, if they do nothing, things may never change.

Firstly, my post was about the comment the guy in the article made. You can't use those words but then also enforce a quota, it is a contradiction.

I have doubts about how effective quotas are. Personally, living in Canada, I do not watch hockey at all (1-2 exceptions). If they tried to cater to the Muslim Canadian population by bringing in some Muslim guys, I still would not care. Similarly, I don't think bringing in below average black cricketers will make much of a difference. A black superstar certainly can make a difference, and inspire young black children, in which case, a quota isn't needed because those cricketers will already be in the side. Rabada and Philander are examples of this. A quota is a lazy "solution" to the lack of black people playing cricket. If they really want to spread the game among black folk, they should be having programs in schools in black majority areas, make more parks and infrastructure where cricket can be played in those black majority areas, etc. BTW I don't know everything, so they may be doing those things, still though, a quota in my eyes will do more harm than good.

At the end of the day, what generates the most interest from all folk, is having a team that wins. You should never be comprising the quality of your team, because NOBODY will watch a team that does poorly every game. I'll go back to my hockey example. The 2 games I particularly remember watching are the Gold medal games for Canada in the Olympics. 2010 and 2014. I watched those because Canada was doing well. I'm sure 95% of the players in the team were white, but that didn't bother me. And if that does bother someone, maybe they need to look in the mirror and see that they are probably the ones who are racist.

 

[tyron_woodley]

Firstly, my post was about the comment the guy in the article made. You can't use those words but then also enforce a quota, it is a contradiction.

I have doubts about how effective quotas are. Personally, living in Canada, I do not watch hockey at all (1-2 exceptions). If they tried to cater to the Muslim Canadian population by bringing in some Muslim guys, I still would not care. Similarly, I don't think bringing in below average black cricketers will make much of a difference. A black superstar certainly can make a difference, and inspire young black children, in which case, a quota isn't needed because those cricketers will already be in the side. Rabada and Philander are examples of this. A quota is a lazy "solution" to the lack of black people playing cricket. If they really want to spread the game among black folk, they should be having programs in schools in black majority areas, make more parks and infrastructure where cricket can be played in those black majority areas, etc. BTW I don't know everything, so they may be doing those things, still though, a quota in my eyes will do more harm than good.

At the end of the day, what generates the most interest from all folk, is having a team that wins. You should never be comprising the quality of your team, because NOBODY will watch a team that does poorly every game. I'll go back to my hockey example. The 2 games I particularly remember watching are the Gold medal games for Canada in the Olympics. 2010 and 2014. I watched those because Canada was doing well. I'm sure 95% of the players in the team were white, but that didn't bother me. And if that does bother someone, maybe they need to look in the mirror and see that they are probably the ones who are racist.

unfortunately lot of black Africans love rugby which is also a privileged sport in south africa I believe. In terms of gear and apparel it costs less hence it's more accessible.

Most south african schools and universities ave domestic/regional rugby competitions through which the elite level prodigies get filtered out.

cricket should be introduced in a similar manner. More schools need to support cricket. Particularly public schools. At the moment it's only played between private or richer elitist schools.

 

[MMHS]

My biggest objection in this thread is the thought process that cricket is an elite, white game and South African black population can’t master the skills.

No, it’s definitely not. Black South Africans were deprived the basic sports facilities, more so in an elite English game like cricket for over 100 years and that’s the only reason they are behind. Even 60 years back there was D’Oliviera, therefore there is nothing in the line of “genetically” talented.

I have given this example many times - 1978 was the first time Viv Anderson played first game for three lions (English national soccer team) as a black man .... 42 years later, today more than half of English National players are black. For France’s case, without their black (& immigrant) players, they won’t have qualified for 2018 WC!!!!!! In 1958 French team that finished 3rd in Sweden, had only one Algerian origin player and no black....

The argument is, how it helps by sponsoring average black player through quota? It helps, because it increases the pool and it encourages the majority to take this sports seriously. It doesn’t happen that one pick 12 boys and train them into superstar cricketer; rather one has to maximise the player pool by encouraging them into the sports and availing facilities to develop their game - few individuals will definitely outshine most others.

Anyway, any sort of quota is not encouraging, but I don’t think what it’s happening in South Africa is first of its kind - rather it’s a reverse engineering of a systematic discrimination that put the majority of a country several decades behind. Had people like D’Oliviera not been side lined for some of the “cricketers” representing South Africa in 1930s-1970s for their brighter skin, I don’t think it would have been required.

SAF will do well again in future with a black dominant side - they are just going through a much required changing phase.

 

[aloo paratha]

My biggest objection in this thread is the thought process that cricket is an elite, white game and South African black population can’t master the skills.

No, it’s definitely not. Black South Africans were deprived the basic sports facilities, more so in an elite English game like cricket for over 100 years and that’s the only reason they are behind. Even 60 years back there was D’Oliviera, therefore there is nothing in the line of “genetically” talented.

I have given this example many times - 1978 was the first time Viv Anderson played first game for three lions (English national soccer team) as a black man .... 42 years later, today more than half of English National players are black. For France’s case, without their black (& immigrant) players, they won’t have qualified for 2018 WC!!!!!! In 1958 French team that finished 3rd in Sweden, had only one Algerian origin player and no black....

The argument is, how it helps by sponsoring average black player through quota? It helps, because it increases the pool and it encourages the majority to take this sports seriously. It doesn’t happen that one pick 12 boys and train them into superstar cricketer; rather one has to maximise the player pool by encouraging them into the sports and availing facilities to develop their game - few individuals will definitely outshine most others.

Anyway, any sort of quota is not encouraging, but I don’t think what it’s happening in South Africa is first of its kind - rather it’s a reverse engineering of a systematic discrimination that put the majority of a country several decades behind. Had people like D’Oliviera not been side lined for some of the “cricketers” representing South Africa in 1930s-1970s for their brighter skin, I don’t think it would have been required.

SAF will do well again in future with a black dominant side - they are just going through a much required changing phase.

I don't think anybody thinks black people literally cannot be better than white people at cricket. Most argue that the best player should be selected, regardless of the race.

 

[Ozymandiasza]

unfortunately lot of black Africans love rugby which is also a privileged sport in south africa I believe. In terms of gear and apparel it costs less hence it's more accessible.

Most south african schools and universities ave domestic/regional rugby competitions through which the elite level prodigies get filtered out.

cricket should be introduced in a similar manner. More schools need to support cricket. Particularly public schools. At the moment it's only played between private or richer elitist schools.

Most of your post is wrong. Both rugby and cricket are not favoured by black citizens. They prefer soccer.

Growing up I've been to three different public schools, not private, and all of them had multiple cricket teams. Not to mention the cricket clubs. They too had regional and domestic competitions.

When I was 6 or 7 years old cricket was introduced with Bakers mini cricket, I see KFC is heading up this organisation now.

 

[barah_admi]

South Africa, with Faf as their captain, wanted to pick players for the 2nd test on "merit" and the transformation targets, they said, should not matter. Where are the arguments now that white cricketers are letting South Africa down?

Because I can guarantee you if transformation targets were met for this test, and the test went the way it is going now, many would be posting exactly that.

I would also like to add that what is defined as a player of colour in SA is quite ridiculous.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race. South Africa needs to select a team on merit, regardless of what the racial outcome would be.

 

[Junaids]

unfortunately lot of black Africans love rugby which is also a privileged sport in south africa I believe. In terms of gear and apparel it costs less hence it's more accessible.

Most south african schools and universities ave domestic/regional rugby competitions through which the elite level prodigies get filtered out.

cricket should be introduced in a similar manner. More schools need to support cricket. Particularly public schools. At the moment it's only played between private or richer elitist schools.

Sadly, I think it's inaccurate to say that a "lot of black Africans love rugby".

The reality of this whole subject is much uglier than I wish it was.

People have their culture, and it takes a lot of shifting. There are around 3 million EU citizens who have moved to the UK in the last 15 years, and while they still love football, the number who follow or play cricket is pretty much zero.

We see the same in North America - cricket is a game for Indians and English and Aussie ex-pats.

White South Africans still love cricket and rugby. Black South Africans love football and generally hardly any even know the rules of cricket. Indian South Africans in KwaZulu Natal and coloured (mixed-race) South Africans nationwide vary according to their economic power in whether they follow cricket.

The most recent three black South African Test cricketers are:

Kagiso Rabada, who has a surgeon and a lawyer as his parents, and went to an exclusive, cricket-playing school.

Temba Bavuma, who went to an exclusive cricket-playing school next to Newlands.

Lungi Ngidi, who is from a more humble background but won a scholarship to an even more exclusive cricket-playing school.

Nobody wants to say it, but these three guys became international cricketers because of the incredible privileges that they enjoyed. The white players had privileges due to their race and these three black players had privileges due to having a "white" education.

Black South African people aren't stupid. If you are struggling to eke out a safe existence in a crowded, poor black township you live in a completely different world to the one to which Rabada, Bavuma and Ngidi were admitted. Ordinary struggling South Africans don't identify with them any more than poor Pakistanis identify with members of a political dynasty's spoiled teenage and young adult kids.

The complete failure of any black players who haven't had economic and educational privileges to break through to the Test team in recent years really shows that sadly cricket remains a game of the elite in South Africa. It's just that now it is an economic (still largely white) elite, rather than a racially-defined elite.

 

[tyron_woodley]

Sadly, I think it's inaccurate to say that a "lot of black Africans love rugby".

The reality of this whole subject is much uglier than I wish it was.

People have their culture, and it takes a lot of shifting. There are around 3 million EU citizens who have moved to the UK in the last 15 years, and while they still love football, the number who follow or play cricket is pretty much zero.

We see the same in North America - cricket is a game for Indians and English and Aussie ex-pats.

White South Africans still love cricket and rugby. Black South Africans love football and generally hardly any even know the rules of cricket. Indian South Africans in KwaZulu Natal and coloured (mixed-race) South Africans nationwide vary according to their economic power in whether they follow cricket.

The most recent three black South African Test cricketers are:

Kagiso Rabada, who has a surgeon and a lawyer as his parents, and went to an exclusive, cricket-playing school.

Temba Bavuma, who went to an exclusive cricket-playing school next to Newlands.

Lungi Ngidi, who is from a more humble background but won a scholarship to an even more exclusive cricket-playing school.

Nobody wants to say it, but these three guys became international cricketers because of the incredible privileges that they enjoyed. The white players had privileges due to their race and these three black players had privileges due to having a "white" education.

Black South African people aren't stupid. If you are struggling to eke out a safe existence in a crowded, poor black township you live in a completely different world to the one to which Rabada, Bavuma and Ngidi were admitted. Ordinary struggling South Africans don't identify with them any more than poor Pakistanis identify with members of a political dynasty's spoiled teenage and young adult kids.

The complete failure of any black players who haven't had economic and educational privileges to break through to the Test team in recent years really shows that sadly cricket remains a game of the elite in South Africa. It's just that now it is an economic (still largely white) elite, rather than a racially-defined elite.

I totally get it. How did i forget football. Their rugby world cup win with a black majority team made me disregard their favourite sport.
That is so true. Many coloured Indians or indians in general that live in south africa are extremely wealthy. My partner is south african and almost every coloured south african of indian and afrikaan heritage to a lesser extent that I have come across are very successful.

That's what I am saying. The wealth gap is widening and the system needs to change to accomodate the poorer albeit talented kids.

I don't live in south africa. Maybe ozmandiasza can tell us more about the situation of the native african. do they native Africans have the education and economic privileges to play cricket unlike before ?

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

The quota system is destroying South African cricket

Recent comments by Faf du Plessis have brought to life an issue that has long derided South African cricket: the quota system. South Africa, a pluralistic country and an emerging world economy is doing itself a disfavor by continuing this system which is against the very basic tenets of sport itself. It is also inherently racist, and demeaning to the black South Africans it claims to protect. Because it insinuates that they got selected on the color of their skin, rather than their talent and ability.

South Africa is a proud cricketing country. Their domestic circuit and grass-roots levels are highly competitive and likely among the best in the world. The existence of the quota system limits what they offer. Many white South Africans go the Kolpak route because they often struggle to find starting places in the domestic sides. Their viewpoint is perhaps best discussed in the Cricket Monthly piece: Life As a Kolpak.

And secondly, players like Ntini, Rabada and Ngidi demonstrate the fact that talented players can reach the national side based on their ability and performances, regardless of the color of their skin. It is certainly true that South Africa is a most unequal society. Over 50% of it's population lives in crippling poverty. It is still haunted by the ghosts of colonialism & apartheid, and it's governments have regularly been criticized for failing the very people it liberated. It is also true that many black South Africans come from improvised backgrounds and do not have the same access to facilities as many of the white South Africans do, who go to prestigious schools that groom them for competitive cricket from a very young age. Rather than looking for shortcuts like the quota system concrete efforts should be made to develop grass-roots levels. To ensure children from impoverished backgrounds get more opportunities, and even scholarships at prestigious schools known for churning out cricketing talent.

I can't speak to the measures that South Africa has actually taken in this regard but it is clear that greater look needs to be taken at the structural problem. It has to be said there is a great divide in South Africa. Their is a class divide between the rich and the poor, but there is also a divide in sports. Cricket and Rugby are perceived by many as elitist sports due to their colonial heritage, that only allow access to whites. But it is this very thinking that is damaging South African cricket.

I think it's disappointing that Faf du Plessis has to defend the omission of Temba Bavuma, who has long been in torrid form. It is especially disappointing because people frame it as a question of race. If South Africa and South African cricket is to move ahead it needs to understand that it is the quality of virtue that exemplifies greatness in sport, not equal representation.

 

[tyron_woodley]

Recent comments by Faf du Plessis have brought to life an issue that has long derided South African cricket: the quota system. South Africa, a pluralistic country and an emerging world economy is doing itself a disfavor by continuing this system which is against the very basic tenets of sport itself. It is also inherently racist, and demeaning to the black South Africans it claims to protect. Because it insinuates that they got selected on the color of their skin, rather than their talent and ability.

South Africa is a proud cricketing country. Their domestic circuit and grass-roots levels are highly competitive and likely among the best in the world. The existence of the quota system limits what they offer. Many white South Africans go the Kolpak route because they often struggle to find starting places in the domestic sides. Their viewpoint is perhaps best discussed in the Cricket Monthly piece: Life As a Kolpak.

And secondly, players like Ntini, Rabada and Ngidi demonstrate the fact that talented players can reach the national side based on their ability and performances, regardless of the color of their skin. It is certainly true that South Africa is a most unequal society. Over 50% of it's population lives in crippling poverty. It is still haunted by the ghosts of colonialism & apartheid, and it's governments have regularly been criticized for failing the very people it liberated. It is also true that many black South Africans come from improvised backgrounds and do not have the same access to facilities as many of the white South Africans do, who go to prestigious schools that groom them for competitive cricket from a very young age. Rather than looking for shortcuts like the quota system concrete efforts should be made to develop grass-roots levels. To ensure children from impoverished backgrounds get more opportunities, and even scholarships at prestigious schools known for churning out cricketing talent.

I can't speak to the measures that South Africa has actually taken in this regard but it is clear that greater look needs to be taken at the structural problem. It has to be said there is a great divide in South Africa. Their is a class divide between the rich and the poor, but there is also a divide in sports. Cricket and Rugby are perceived by many as elitist sports due to their colonial heritage, that only allow access to whites. But it is this very thinking that is damaging South African cricket.

I think it's disappointing that Faf du Plessis has to defend the omission of Temba Bavuma, who has long been in torrid form. It is especially disappointing because people frame it as a question of race. If South Africa and South African cricket is to move ahead it needs to understand that it is the quality of virtue that exemplifies greatness in sport, not equal representation.

all the black players that get picked are world class barring bavuma who actually did perform well in australia several years back. Won them a test.

I totally agree with the way their structure works but don't forget they just won the rugby world cup with a majority of black players in the team. Won't be too long before they turn things around in cricket too. Problem is black people in general don't like cricket. Interest is lacking and at the moment south africa are in a rebuilding phase. Takes some time.

Tell me which white player hasn't been picked?

Olivier and abbot dint want to stay back because they faced heavy competition from ngidi rabada and nortje who. Rabada is better than abbot. Nortje is far superior to one dimensional Olivier.

 

[shah_1]

It is a long term policy that will work eventually

 

[barah_admi]

all the black players that get picked are world class barring bavuma who actually did perform well in australia several years back. Won them a test.

I totally agree with the way their structure works but don't forget they just won the rugby world cup with a majority of black players in the team. Won't be too long before they turn things around in cricket too. Problem is black people in general don't like cricket. Interest is lacking and at the moment south africa are in a rebuilding phase. Takes some time.

Tell me which white player hasn't been picked?

Olivier and abbot dint want to stay back because they faced heavy competition from ngidi rabada and nortje who. Rabada is better than abbot. Nortje is far superior to one dimensional Olivier.

So much truth in this post and exactly what I have posted several times before.

I'd like people to start naming all these exceptional white players that should have been given preference over "coloured" players who were unfairly or undeservingly picked over the white players. Who is so great in SA cricket that they should replace Rabada, Ngidi, Philander, Tahir back in the day?

Plus on top of all that, the system actually labels players like QDK as "coloured", for whatever reason so it is not as if the quota is even correct in the first place. Yet there are still complaints.

A lot of this comes through racism and ignorance, racism in hating non white SOuth Africans....some of whom are actually real Africans, making their way up the sporting ladder which is dominated by privileged white men from privileged schools and ignorance of the realities of South AFrica as a nation. Especially ignorance of the fact that many white SA cricketers willingly leave the country and want to play for England.

 

[sharmaji]

Very well written. Thank you for the insight. It is fascinating to watch this important issue unfold in real world. Just the other day my friend and I were discussing why we should have quota for dalits and minorities in Indian Cricket team (playing XI, squad) and even IPL teams. Because in many other fields, the quota system is already in place and it is working/not working depending on who you ask.

Sadly, I think it's inaccurate to say that a "lot of black Africans love rugby".

The reality of this whole subject is much uglier than I wish it was.

People have their culture, and it takes a lot of shifting. There are around 3 million EU citizens who have moved to the UK in the last 15 years, and while they still love football, the number who follow or play cricket is pretty much zero.

We see the same in North America - cricket is a game for Indians and English and Aussie ex-pats.

White South Africans still love cricket and rugby. Black South Africans love football and generally hardly any even know the rules of cricket. Indian South Africans in KwaZulu Natal and coloured (mixed-race) South Africans nationwide vary according to their economic power in whether they follow cricket.

The most recent three black South African Test cricketers are:

Kagiso Rabada, who has a surgeon and a lawyer as his parents, and went to an exclusive, cricket-playing school.

Temba Bavuma, who went to an exclusive cricket-playing school next to Newlands.

Lungi Ngidi, who is from a more humble background but won a scholarship to an even more exclusive cricket-playing school.

Nobody wants to say it, but these three guys became international cricketers because of the incredible privileges that they enjoyed. The white players had privileges due to their race and these three black players had privileges due to having a "white" education.

Black South African people aren't stupid. If you are struggling to eke out a safe existence in a crowded, poor black township you live in a completely different world to the one to which Rabada, Bavuma and Ngidi were admitted. Ordinary struggling South Africans don't identify with them any more than poor Pakistanis identify with members of a political dynasty's spoiled teenage and young adult kids.

The complete failure of any black players who haven't had economic and educational privileges to break through to the Test team in recent years really shows that sadly cricket remains a game of the elite in South Africa. It's just that now it is an economic (still largely white) elite, rather than a racially-defined elite.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

all the black players that get picked are world class barring bavuma who actually did perform well in australia several years back. Won them a test.

I totally agree with the way their structure works but don't forget they just won the rugby world cup with a majority of black players in the team. Won't be too long before they turn things around in cricket too. Problem is black people in general don't like cricket. Interest is lacking and at the moment south africa are in a rebuilding phase. Takes some time.

Tell me which white player hasn't been picked?

Olivier and abbot dint want to stay back because they faced heavy competition from ngidi rabada and nortje who. Rabada is better than abbot. Nortje is far superior to one dimensional Olivier.

all the black players that get picked are world class barring bavuma who actually did perform well in australia several years back. Won them a test.

I totally agree with the way their structure works but don't forget they just won the rugby world cup with a majority of black players in the team. Won't be too long before they turn things around in cricket too. Problem is black people in general don't like cricket. Interest is lacking and at the moment south africa are in a rebuilding phase. Takes some time.

Tell me which white player hasn't been picked?

Olivier and abbot dint want to stay back because they faced heavy competition from ngidi rabada and nortje who. Rabada is better than abbot. Nortje is far superior to one dimensional Olivier.

It's very easy to dismiss guys like Olivier, Harmer, Abbott, Vilas as people who don't care for their country but you are not fully aware of their point-of-view. You also seem unaware of Simon Harmer's record in South African domestic and county cricket. And Olivier too was an exceptional talent whether you admit it or not. All of them cite different reasons but ultaimtely it all comes back to South Africa's system and the way it's structured.

The quota policy applies to both international and domestic cricket which is why we have seen an even bigger exodus of South African domestic players.

 

[tyron_woodley]

It's very easy to dismiss guys like Olivier, Harmer, Abbott, Vilas as people who don't care for their country but you are not fully aware of their point-of-view. You also seem unaware of Simon Harmer's record in South African domestic and county cricket. And Olivier too was an exceptional talent whether you admit it or not. All of them cite different reasons but ultaimtely it all comes back to South Africa's system and the way it's structured.

The quota policy applies to both international and domestic cricket which is why we have seen an even bigger exodus of South African domestic players.

none of those guys barring harmer were good enough to replace rabada and nortje or even philander.

Olivier got found out in the Sri Lanka test. He is a trundler.
btw harmer plays first class. first class isn't international class. He was rendered ineffective in india and Lanka.

Anyway that's not the point. The white players from south africa that left particularly those 4 just preferred to choose the easy way out because they feel too privileged and deserve an automatic entry into the team. They dint want to fight for a spot. rabada, ngidi had that x factor. so does nortje. Speed, something duane and abbot lack. They dint want to play second fiddle to these black players.

Abbot was supposed to replace steyn but he quit.

 

[The Viper]

You know things are bad when Temba Bavuma is being embarked as a future captain, despite having a mediocre test record.

 

[MMHS]

What cricket South Africa is doing is the ONLY way for cricket to survive there - few years, may be a decade sacrifice is nothing in that regard. For every white SAF player - either you have to give him an unconditional long term guaranteed spot in SAF team, or they’ll find a way to leave through Kolpak or to NZL, Australia, may be Canada, Ireland, Scotland, Holland .....

Reading history often gives the biggest clue - around 80-90 years back, this was exactly the situation in West Indies cricket until they also took a bold decision after British Supremacy was finished with the WW2 - made Headley Captain at 42 in 1947 and brought a majority black squad - it took less than a decade for them.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

none of those guys barring harmer were good enough to replace rabada and nortje or even philander.

Olivier got found out in the Sri Lanka test. He is a trundler.
btw harmer plays first class. first class isn't international class. He was rendered ineffective in india and Lanka.

Anyway that's not the point. The white players from south africa that left particularly those 4 just preferred to choose the easy way out because they feel too privileged and deserve an automatic entry into the team. They dint want to fight for a spot. rabada, ngidi had that x factor. so does nortje. Speed, something duane and abbot lack. They dint want to play second fiddle to these black players.

Abbot was supposed to replace steyn but he quit.

How exactly was Harmer rendered ineffective? He averaged 25 in India in the two test matches that he played which I would say is pretty good any visiting spinner, let alone a South African spinner in India. By comparison the guy who replaced him: Maharaj averaged 85 in India when South Africa toured last year. And Harmer never played in, or against Sri Lanka.

Your black & white perspective shows a primitive understanding of the matter. Some of them might well have prioritized money and stability over a chance to play for South Africa. Some probably felt they were getting old and on their way out. But to say they didn't probably want to play second fiddle to guys like Ngidi and Rabada is disingenuous, because you're refusing to consider that that players do get side-lined to meet quotas. Today it is Bavuma, in the past it has been guys like Justin Ontong and and Loots Bosman. And as a result players feel insecure about their place.

You also seem to be oblivious to the fact that these quotas apply to domestic cricket aswell. Most guys probably wouldn't mind playing second-fiddle to Rabada, Ngidi, because guys like those will always make the team on merit. But when you can't get a starting spot even for your domestic side it becomes a question of livelihood.

 

[tyron_woodley]

How exactly was Harmer rendered ineffective? He averaged 25 in India in the two test matches that he played which I would say is pretty good any visiting spinner, let alone a South African spinner in India. By comparison the guy who replaced him: Maharaj averaged 85 in India when South Africa toured last year. And Harmer never played in, or against Sri Lanka.

Your black & white perspective shows a primitive understanding of the matter. Some of them might well have prioritized money and stability over a chance to play for South Africa. Some probably felt they were getting old and on their way out. But to say they didn't probably want to play second fiddle to guys like Ngidi and Rabada is disingenuous, because you're refusing to consider that that players do get side-lined to meet quotas. Today it is Bavuma, in the past it has been guys like Justin Ontong and and Loots Bosman. And as a result players feel insecure about their place.

You also seem to be oblivious to the fact that these quotas apply to domestic cricket aswell. Most guys probably wouldn't mind playing second-fiddle to Rabada, Ngidi, because guys like those will always make the team on merit. But when you can't get a starting spot even for your domestic side it becomes a question of livelihood.

tell me about those domestic players that dint get a start?

all the good players have been given chances.

I did read that article on cricinfo. Sounds to me like they just either chose money and job security or they just weren't good enough to compete with the top tier talents.

The best players always make it through.

I don't blame south africa for implementing the quota system from grass root levels. Cricket is still seen as an elitist sport. Black origin players have been suppressed for long enough. It's their country after all. Nothing wrong with encouraging more local talents to play cricket. It shouldn't be a privilege to only those that can afford to play for example the richer population that consists of either white English origin saffers, indian origin players and some coloured people. Apart from the aforementioned class of people I.e English origin saffers and indians/coloured, the vast majority of the south african population simply lack the finances to even get an opportunity to play.

Look at the rugby team of south africa. It took a while to rebuild and now it's paid dividends. Same will happen in cricket. Issue is lack of interest from black origin players not talent.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

What cricket South Africa is doing is the ONLY way for cricket to survive there - few years, may be a decade sacrifice is nothing in that regard. For every white SAF player - either you have to give him an unconditional long term guaranteed spot in SAF team, or they’ll find a way to leave through Kolpak or to NZL, Australia, may be Canada, Ireland, Scotland, Holland .....

Reading history often gives the biggest clue - around 80-90 years back, this was exactly the situation in West Indies cricket until they also took a bold decision after British Supremacy was finished with the WW2 - made Headley Captain at 42 in 1947 and brought a majority black squad - it took less than a decade for them.

So basically you are saying that representation is more important than selecting the best players? Because if you are saying that then that is an absolutely ludicrous suggestion. You can't just side-line the whites, they are as much a part of South Africa as the blacks and must not be made to pay for the sins of their fathers. Also, the comparison between West Indies and South Africa does not apply. For one thing, the West Indies was a racially homogeneous region. It just happened to be under colonialism. A West Indies team was always going to be comprised of blacks.

 

[tyron_woodley]

What cricket South Africa is doing is the ONLY way for cricket to survive there - few years, may be a decade sacrifice is nothing in that regard. For every white SAF player - either you have to give him an unconditional long term guaranteed spot in SAF team, or they’ll find a way to leave through Kolpak or to NZL, Australia, may be Canada, Ireland, Scotland, Holland .....

Reading history often gives the biggest clue - around 80-90 years back, this was exactly the situation in West Indies cricket until they also took a bold decision after British Supremacy was finished with the WW2 - made Headley Captain at 42 in 1947 and brought a majority black squad - it took less than a decade for them.

plenty of talent coming through.

janneman Malan
verryene
coetze
sipamla

south africa will be fine.

 

[MMHS]

So basically you are saying that representation is more important than selecting the best players? Because if you are saying that then that is an absolutely ludicrous suggestion. You can't just side-line the whites, they are as much a part of South Africa as the blacks and must not be made to pay for the sins of their fathers. Also, the comparison between West Indies and South Africa does not apply. For one thing, the West Indies was a racially homogeneous region. It just happened to be under colonialism. A West Indies team was always going to be comprised of blacks.

There has been enough discussions on this - can’t repeat all.

What they are doing is just adjusting a century long discrimination - black South Africans were deliberately kept away from cricket hence they have fallen behind by generations. Quota is not about participation or repay for the sins of ancestors rather bringing brutal majority in the game - may be had Basil D’Oliviera played for South Africa in 1960s, they won’t have required any quota now. Anyway, already there are world class non white players coming in last 30 years, which suggests it’s quite possible a black dominant SAF can be super power of cricket again.

West Indies was homogeneous, still always going to be black dominant, while SAF having 90%+ black, should remain a white dominant cricket team - quite logical, have to say.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

tell me about those domestic players that dint get a start?

all the good players have been given chances.

I did read that article on cricinfo. Sounds to me like they just either chose money and job security or they just weren't good enough to compete with the top tier talents.

The best players always make it through.

I don't blame south africa for implementing the quota system from grass root levels. Cricket is still seen as an elitist sport. Black origin players have been suppressed for long enough. It's their country after all. Nothing wrong with encouraging more local talents to play cricket. It shouldn't be a privilege to only those that can afford to play for example the richer population that consists of either white English origin saffers, indian origin players and some coloured people. Apart from the aforementioned class of people I.e English origin saffers and indians/coloured, the vast majority of the south african population simply lack the finances to even get an opportunity to play.

Look at the rugby team of south africa. It took a while to rebuild and now it's paid dividends. Same will happen in cricket. Issue is lack of interest from black origin players not talent.

Well there are 34 South Africans in County with a British passport or a Kolpak deal so I guess they all are just elitist nobodies who weren't good enough. If they were "not good enough", why did English counties go to the trouble of courting them and paying them good money to play for their teams?

Just because the blacks were suppressed for so long doesn't mean they should seek some sort of revenge from the whites. Any one who has read about Mandela knows those are not the principles he stood for. If South Africa wants to generate the interest of blacks it should do it organically rather than forcing it through the quota-system. For decades, Ntini was the only note-worthy player in the South Africa team, now Rabada, Ngidi and Phehlukwayo have all established themselves. And players like Simpala and Dala could soon be regular fixtures in the side aswell.

Ntini and Prince have themselves actually criticized the quota system because of the negative stigma it carries for black and colored players. Because the insinuation for many is that they got selected on the color of their skin.

Ultimately though if South Africa's captain is forced to renege important team selections (and this has happened in the past) on the basis of fulfilling quota goals, then it means the best South African team is not even making it to the pitch. And that is against the very basic tenets of sport.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

There has been enough discussions on this - can’t repeat all.

What they are doing is just adjusting a century long discrimination - black South Africans were deliberately kept away from cricket hence they have fallen behind by generations. Quota is not about participation or repay for the sins of ancestors rather bringing brutal majority in the game - may be had Basil D’Oliviera played for South Africa in 1960s, they won’t have required any quota now. Anyway, already there are world class non white players coming in last 30 years, which suggests it’s quite possible a black dominant SAF can be super power of cricket again.

West Indies was homogeneous, still always going to be black dominant, while SAF having 90%+ black, should remain a white dominant cricket team - quite logical, have to say.

Call it what you want but it is holding back South African cricket. If the majority of the best players happen to be white why would you want to shoe-horn an undeserving black player in there? Said this too many times and hate saying it again but the best players white or non-white will always make it through. The process of empowering the blacks to start playing cricket should be an organic one, rather than one that is sped up by the quota-system. It is a short-cut that is doing South Africa no favors.

 

[tyron_woodley]

Well there are 34 South Africans in County with a British passport or a Kolpak deal so I guess they all are just elitist nobodies who weren't good enough. If they were "not good enough", why did English counties go to the trouble of courting them and paying them good money to play for their teams?

Just because the blacks were suppressed for so long doesn't mean they should seek some sort of revenge from the whites. Any one who has read about Mandela knows those are not the principles he stood for. If South Africa wants to generate the interest of blacks it should do it organically rather than forcing it through the quota-system. For decades, Ntini was the only note-worthy player in the South Africa team, now Rabada, Ngidi and Phehlukwayo have all established themselves. And players like Simpala and Dala could soon be regular fixtures in the side aswell.

Ntini and Prince have themselves actually criticized the quota system because of the negative stigma it carries for black and colored players. Because the insinuation for many is that they got selected on the color of their skin.

Ultimately though if South Africa's captain is forced to renege important team selections (and this has happened in the past) on the basis of fulfilling quota goals, then it means the best South African team is not even making it to the pitch. And that is against the very basic tenets of sport.

the whole point being the elitist group had better access to not advanced training facilities which expedited their ability to perform as a cricjeter. Black origin players were not given the same privileges. They were infact deprived of such opportunities. What makes you think black origin players can perform if all other attributes were equal? They are as good if not better athletically. I am sure if there is interest they will perform.

Like I said They turned things around in rugby with the quota system. They can do so in cricket too.

They are on the right path, many schools are now offering scholarships and other pathways to me see privileged kids. Public school system is improving rapidly.
South Africa in the future could be an all star black team if their youth players show interest. Guys like rabada and philander will inspire the new generation.

Besides it's their country. They can do whatever the hell they want. No one care about the white origin saffers. If they want to go to county then go for it. Don't come back.

Many of those 34 are not good enough. That's the cold hard truth. Out of all of them only 5 would be useful. harmer, abbot and a couple of others. roussow is a good odi player. Thats about it. Rest are either deemed surplus, weren't good enough to displace the top tier players, left when they were young for wanting a better life style, just left for money and job security. Nothing wrong with leaving for job security.

Wagner and watling left to n.z when they were young.
khawaja is playing for australia.
stokes plays for England.

People migrate. Its part of life. Sometimes it works out for the better.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

the whole point being the elitist group had better access to not advanced training facilities which expedited their ability to perform as a cricjeter. Black origin players were not given the same privileges. They were infact deprived of such opportunities. What makes you think black origin players can perform if all other attributes were equal? They are as good if not better athletically. I am sure if there is interest they will perform.

Like I said They turned things around in rugby with the quota system. They can do so in cricket too.

They are on the right path, many schools are now offering scholarships and other pathways to me see privileged kids. Public school system is improving rapidly.
South Africa in the future could be an all star black team if their youth players show interest. Guys like rabada and philander will inspire the new generation.

Besides it's their country. They can do whatever the hell they want. No one care about the white origin saffers. If they want to go to county then go for it. Don't come back.

Many of those 34 are not good enough. That's the cold hard truth. Out of all of them only 5 would be useful. harmer, abbot and a couple of others. roussow is a good odi player. Thats about it. Rest are either deemed surplus, weren't good enough to displace the top tier players, left when they were young for wanting a better life style, just left for money and job security. Nothing wrong with leaving for job security.

Wagner and watling left to n.z when they were young.
khawaja is playing for australia.
stokes plays for England.

People migrate. Its part of life. Sometimes it works out for the better.

That's a rather appalling way of looking at it. Just because they are white and their forefathers happened to be murderous racist bigots, they are somehow supposed to pay for their sins? and are not South African enough?

You don't know enough about South African domestic cricket to make that statement. Many of those players haven't even played international cricket for South Africa. Unless you are someone who follows South African domestic cricket, you are not informed enough to make such a statement.

 

[minamino]

Black South Africans are richer than white South Africans. Black Africans don't like to play cricket and it would take a long time for them to get invested into cricket. The quota system is even worse in domestic cricket and that's why a lot of white players are now moving to England and NZ from SA.

Black African cricketers are not just good enough. There is only one Black African batsmen who has scored century in international cricket from that list. SA tried a lot of players like Khaya Zondo and others but they were just not good enough for even domestic cricket.

 

[tyron_woodley]

Black South Africans are richer than white South Africans. Black Africans don't like to play cricket and it would take a long time for them to get invested into cricket. The quota system is even worse in domestic cricket and that's why a lot of white players are now moving to England and NZ from SA.

Black African cricketers are not just good enough. There is only one Black African batsmen who has scored century in international cricket from that list. SA tried a lot of players like Khaya Zondo and others but they were just not good enough for even domestic cricket.

said the same thing about them in rugby. Look what happened now? world champions.

give it time. They will improve in cricket too.

 

[Balthazar]

You will see a gradual decrease in the participation by whites, and it's left to black players to fill in that gap. It's going to be a bumpy ride for SA for the next 15-20 years. It looks like they are ready to compromise on the quality for the long term changes. I think it's only a fair system looking at their history and racial discrimination is something that still exists in this day and age.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

You will see a gradual decrease in the participation by whites, and it's left to black players to fill in that gap. It's going to be a bumpy ride for SA for the next 15-20 years. It looks like they are ready to compromise on the quality for the long term changes. I think it's only a fair system looking at their history and racial discrimination is something that still exists in this day and age.

It may or may not work out for them but it's ridiculous to suggest that the likes of Simon harmer were not good enough to even get a domestic contract in SA . I don't blame the players for going Kolpak at all. They have families too.

 

[tyron_woodley]

It may or may not work out for them but it's ridiculous to suggest that the likes of Simon harmer were not good enough to even get a domestic contract in SA . I don't blame the players for going Kolpak at all. They have families too.

he would have got a contract. He chose to leave. He can get lost along with all the other kolpak bound white origin players. No one cares about them in south africa.

 

[Balthazar]

It may or may not work out for them but it's ridiculous to suggest that the likes of Simon harmer were not good enough to even get a domestic contract in SA . I don't blame the players for going Kolpak at all. They have families too.

There's always a small price to pay for correcting the wrong. Yes it's unfortunate, but it's good that they have County to fall back on. No one should blame them for going Kolpak. It's their life.

 

[Ryw]

Jonty Rhodes on privilege: 'I literally was competing only with the white players'

"My cricketing statistics as a player were very average when I was selected”

Former Proteas middle-order stalwart Jonty Rhodes raised eyebrows when he said he was a beneficiary of white privilege from a selection perspective during his storied cricket career.

Rhodes‚ an electric fielder and more than capable middle-order batsman with 52 Tests and 245 ODI's under his belt‚ told The Hindu that his statistics were average when he was first picked for the national team in 1992.

Rhodes rose to prominence in the 1992 Cricket World Cup when he ran out Pakistan's Inzamam-ul-Haq in a critical round-robin game in Brisbane that SA went on to win.

Rhodes's comments come in the midst of SA's national team being unable to meet its transformation targets in the ongoing Test series against England.

There's also the significant matter of Temba Bavuma's dropping from the Test team that's ignited a raging debate over selection policies when a player returns from injury and what quantifies weight of runs to return to the Test team.

“I certainly benefited from the fact that I wasn’t really competing with 50% of the population.

"I literally was competing only with the white players.

"You talk about white privilege and it raises a lot of heat and debate on social media but it is the case.

"I’m very aware of that. My cricketing statistics as a player were very average when I was selected‚” Rhodes told The Hindu.

“If I was competing with the rest of the country then possibly I wouldn’t have been picked. And I would not have been diving around the field.”

Rhodes‚ who last played international cricket for the Proteas at the 2003 Cricket World Cup that was held in SA‚ also told publication that the legacy of apartheid still stains South African cricket‚ society in general and how the game hasn't adequately developed black players.

“We in South Africa have a legacy of apartheid.

"How many generations does it take to address that?

"You still have disadvantaged communities based on race. So they might have political freedom but they don’t have economic freedom‚” Rhodes said.

“The biggest question for me is why in over 20 years have we not produced opportunities for young players in disadvantaged communities? It’s not about racism.

"It’s about equal opportunity and that’s not happening.”

With fast bowler Kagiso Rabada suspended for this week's final Test at the Wanderers‚ SA's selection think-tank don't have anywhere to turn to for a fit and firing Test-class bowler.

Lungi Ngidi has missed the series with injury and along with franchise and national team mate Tabraiz Shamsi and Warriors pair of Sisanda Magala and JJ Smuts‚ have been placed in a high performance fitness and conditioning camp at Cricket South Africa's High Performance Centre in Tshwane.

Also‚ Bavuma‚ Beuran Hendricks‚ Keegan Petersen and Andile Phehlukwayo have been recalled from their franchise teams and have rejoined the Test squad for Friday's Test.

Bavuma in particular pressed a serious selection case with his impressive‚ but futile fourth innings 180 that couldn't starve off defeat for the Lions against the Dolphins in Pietermaritzburg last week.

Whether he'll play on Friday when there's a general team malfunction will remain to be seen‚ but South Africa are in need of a black African player in the match-day 11.

Rhodes said South Africa's selectors are caught between a rock and a hard place.

“Now you have a scenario where (Kagiso) Rabada is suspended (for the fourth Test).

"If (Lungi) Ngidi is injured and can’t play‚ that will mean Bavuma has to play.

"You’re dropping a fast bowler but you’re bringing in a batsman. From that perspective‚ it really is tough‚” Rhodes said.

https://www.timeslive.co.za/sport/c...ly-was-competing-only-with-the-white-players/

 

[MMHS]

This South African batting line up is absolutely shocking and apart from Kock (who I read is mixed) & Hamza, everyone is white - therefore I don’t think grass is greener in other side either. They are going through a paradigm shift and it will take few more years - after that, if SAF cricket regains their status, cricket will last long there, otherwise it was never going to last being a white dominant sports.

 

[Bewal Express]

This South African batting line up is absolutely shocking and apart from Kock (who I read is mixed) & Hamza, everyone is white - therefore I don’t think grass is greener in other side either. They are going through a paradigm shift and it will take few more years - after that, if SAF cricket regains their status, cricket will last long there, otherwise it was never going to last being a white dominant sports.

De Kock is not mixed race.

 

[minamino]

De Kock is not mixed race.

He is Cape Colored like Herschelle Gibbs I think.

 

[Bewal Express]

He is Cape Colored like Herschelle Gibbs I think.

No, just white.

 

[junoon]

It has been more than 25 years since apartheid ended officially in SA in 1994, yet white privilege and the disparity gap between whites and blacks in terms of wealth remains unchanged.
If only someone like Robert Mugabe is able to ascend into power South Africa and bring a meaningful change to the status-quo

 

[Pakistanian]

Firstly, my post was about the comment the guy in the article made. You can't use those words but then also enforce a quota, it is a contradiction.

I have doubts about how effective quotas are. Personally, living in Canada, I do not watch hockey at all (1-2 exceptions). If they tried to cater to the Muslim Canadian population by bringing in some Muslim guys, I still would not care. Similarly, I don't think bringing in below average black cricketers will make much of a difference. A black superstar certainly can make a difference, and inspire young black children, in which case, a quota isn't needed because those cricketers will already be in the side. Rabada and Philander are examples of this. A quota is a lazy "solution" to the lack of black people playing cricket. If they really want to spread the game among black folk, they should be having programs in schools in black majority areas, make more parks and infrastructure where cricket can be played in those black majority areas, etc. BTW I don't know everything, so they may be doing those things, still though, a quota in my eyes will do more harm than good.

At the end of the day, what generates the most interest from all folk, is having a team that wins. You should never be comprising the quality of your team, because NOBODY will watch a team that does poorly every game. I'll go back to my hockey example. The 2 games I particularly remember watching are the Gold medal games for Canada in the Olympics. 2010 and 2014. I watched those because Canada was doing well. I'm sure 95% of the players in the team were white, but that didn't bother me. And if that does bother someone, maybe they need to look in the mirror and see that they are probably the ones who are racist.

You can't compare Canada to South Africa, every country has a unique history and societal issues that can't be compared. Muslims are only 3% of Canada's population whereas Black people are over 90% - there are no "black majority areas", South Africa is entirely a black majority country, you can't sustain a sport if all the players are just from the white minority who btw make up only 8% of the population from a financial standpoint South African cricket admins know they need to cater to a wider audience cause if it's just a niche sport for a minority race then it's never going to be profitable, it's the same reason why cricket is not popular in North America cause it's only watched and played by Asian minorities. A team that win doesn't matters if the average person can't relate to the players, of course ideally people should not be blinded by race and support their team/country no matter what color and culture the player is of however that ignores the longstanding historical animosities and cultural differences that exist between white and black south Africans, they do not see themselves as one nation - I think a similar comparison would be Quebec vs English Canada.

 

[Ozymandiasza]

I totally get it. How did i forget football. Their rugby world cup win with a black majority team made me disregard their favourite sport.
That is so true. Many coloured Indians or indians in general that live in south africa are extremely wealthy. My partner is south african and almost every coloured south african of indian and afrikaan heritage to a lesser extent that I have come across are very successful.

That's what I am saying. The wealth gap is widening and the system needs to change to accomodate the poorer albeit talented kids.

I don't live in south africa. Maybe ozmandiasza can tell us more about the situation of the native african. do they native Africans have the education and economic privileges to play cricket unlike before ?

In regards to the bold part: That not accurate, there were 6 black players in a squad of 31, 5 coloured and 20 white. It really depends on how you define each category. The quota was "Under the agreement between South African rugby officials and the government, half of the Springboks side at the 2019 Rugby World Cup in Japan should be black". This clearly never realised.

"The Springboks' first black captain Siya Kolisi sparked outrage earlier this year when he said he did not believe the country's iconic former president Nelson Mandela would have backed quotas for the national team" - link

The Springboks were also coached by a white man in the world cup. He took over from a "quota appointment" one year before the world cup. The quota coach produced such hits as the biggest defeat EVER, and lowest ranking EVER. The best man for the job produced a world cup and a rugby championship within two years of coaching.

In that regard, rugby makes for a poor analogy. If anything, it shows how harmful forced appointments based on skin colour are.

 

[Gabbar Singh]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">It'll be difficult for the Proteas to pick more than 5 white players in an 11 in the future. <a href="https://twitter.com/OfficialCSA?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@OfficialCSA</a> wanted to change the minimum target to 50%, but after the BLM movement in cricket, they chose to increase it to 58% (25% BA). This will increase to 60% (27 BA) next year. <a href="https://t.co/nGAf4297dI">pic.twitter.com/nGAf4297dI</a></p>— Tinus van Staden (@TinusvS4) <a href="https://twitter.com/TinusvS4/status/1333410348158824451?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">November 30, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[sweep_shot]

I am not a fan of quota system. I believe South Africa can do better without it.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

SA cricket has been on a decline ever since the quota came into effect. Will only continue to effect the team balance, selection and unity.
Forced changes are never good. Opportunities should be provided to everyone at the grass root level and the best among those should be picked.

 

[aloo paratha]

England and New Zealand licking their lips. Expect South Africa to to finish the 2023 World Cup similarly to how they finished in the 2019 one.

 

[aloo paratha]

I am not a fan of quota system. I believe South Africa can do better without it.

It's a fact. A quota means you are not picking the best possible team you can.

 

[aloo paratha]

It's ironic how people who label themselves as "anti racists" are the ones who see everything through the lens of race, going as far as to... Discriminate based off race...

 

[aloo paratha]

That's how saffers feel though. Nothing we can do and I don't blame them.

I don't really understand your point. Throughout history people have oppressed other groups, but for a lot of time, people oppressed there own kind, because there was no such thing as international travel. If we go by the logic of sons paying for sins of their fathers, everybody will hate everybody, because every group of people have oppressed people in the past.

 

[Abdullah Rabbani]

problem is that when they force average black or non white players into the team for stupid political reasons. International Sport is about competition and not a diversity drive. The problem SA has is that without white players and fans there is no cricket or rugby

 

[Mesozoic]

It's sad realy seeing South Africa playing these days. Last world cup, and then the disastrous Indian tour , getting whacked by England at home.....

I don't think they'll go the Zimbabwe route though. I mean let's be honest here SAF black cricketers are miles better than their Zimbabwean counterparts. So at the least they'll be a mid level team like Pak.

 

[MMHS]

It's sad realy seeing South Africa playing these days. Last world cup, and then the disastrous Indian tour , getting whacked by England at home.....

I don't think they'll go the Zimbabwe route though. I mean let's be honest here SAF black cricketers are miles better than their Zimbabwean counterparts. So at the least they'll be a mid level team like Pak.

They'll be among top cricket teams in few years time - you can recall this thread that time.

What SAF is doing can't be supported, but I can understand the logic - may be they have over cooked it but this is the only way for this game to have a long-term future there. Unless SAF makes this game popular among 90%+ brutal non white majority, there is no future of cricket there. On top of that, their white players/people give a damn about the country - sounds harsh, but that's reality. Instead of fighting it out for a spot, every white player has used the excuse for a kolpak back-door.

Today we read about kolpak and racial discriminations (against whites), but when 10% whites enjoying 90% wealth & facilities of SAF even then there were hardly any loyalty in every aspect (not only in sports) - their best athletes moved to UK or USA, actors, singers, businessmen.... just used SAF as a platform, because it was easy there - you are competing with handful of people and rest were 3rd class citizen.

It's not the black people are genetically less "tal*nted" in cricket, rather they were categorically denied the opportunity of a level playing field for a century - result is the generation gap, this needs to be fixed first, black kids have to be brought into the game - South African are naturally gifted athletes, once the game is popular among mass, there will be enough black players without quota. There is some quota in every country to bring under privileged minority into competition - in Canada we have quotas for Iniuts, Metis, Indians ... even for Federal jobs - Blacks are not even minority in SAF, it's their country!!!! Long, long back, in 1930s one white idiot said that West Indian team should not have black batsmen because batting it too complicated for their thick brain, may be they can try in bowling which is basically a labor's job - even that time though there was one George Headley ..... that comment aged well indeed.

I have said it many times in past - the only way forward for SAF is quota system, which might be harsh for few current generation white players/coaches, but in the long run it'll be beneficiary for SAF cricket. Look at England soccer teams - Viv Anderson was first black man in three lion's shirt in 1977 ..... or this wonderful French team, in 2018 WC winning team there were about 3/4 "French" - rest were black or Arab.... same thing will happen in SAF cricket - or other way, if it doesn't happen, then SAF will go down the ZIM route in cricket, may not be that low.

 

[aloo paratha]

When privilege is taken away it looks like punishment, but whites are not being punished. This is just affirmative action which is done in every liberal nation which had historically oppressed communities.

How is this not punishment? One race is getting preferential treatment.

 

[CricketCartoons]

How is this not punishment? One race is getting preferential treatment.

To correct a historical wrong when the other race was getting preferential punishment and hogged all resources.

 

[aloo paratha]

To correct a historical wrong when the other race was getting preferential punishment and hogged all resources.

So 2 wrongs make it right?

 

[CricketCartoons]

So 2 wrongs make it right?

There is only 1 wrong. the other is social justice.

 

[aloo paratha]

There is only 1 wrong. the other is social justice.

Alright it's already clear to me we won't see eye to eye on this topic

 

[Mamoon]

You have to question the practicality of this quota system after watching Sipamla bowl today.

 

[Titan24]

There is nothing wrong with an effort to provide equal opportunities to every young boy or girl but you first create a base and structure for transformation. Meaning you have to apply a bottom to top approach rather than the other way round which could be potentially impacting the morale and performances of the national team.

In an ideal world the transformation should have started from grass root level than domestic level and than international level. While efforts are being made for transformation at levels below as well but, top level should only have been touched after a successful conversion in some years.

Everyone should be made to feel welcomed in the society without any discrimination. Yes it wasnt done earlier in the history but, that doesnt mean things should go to another extreme to correct that. Best players should be playing for a country in my opinion irrespective of color. Yes necessary spending should be done and facilities should be provided to people who are deprived of them to have equal opportunities and that is where the efforts should have been put in rather than creating quotas when there is not enough quality in the pipeline to fill that.

 

[Zaz]

Its quite clear some of the non white south players are just not enough to be in the team

Fitting square pegs into round holes never works

Its better to work on putting better systems in place n giving them more opportunity at junior levels in townships etc so that they improve organically at that level than foricing them into thr national team when they arent good enough

This doesnt do south african young black players of the national team any good

 

[Junaids]

They'll be among top cricket teams in few years time - you can recall this thread that time.

What SAF is doing can't be supported, but I can understand the logic - may be they have over cooked it but this is the only way for this game to have a long-term future there. Unless SAF makes this game popular among 90%+ brutal non white majority, there is no future of cricket there. On top of that, their white players/people give a damn about the country - sounds harsh, but that's reality. Instead of fighting it out for a spot, every white player has used the excuse for a kolpak back-door.

Today we read about kolpak and racial discriminations (against whites), but when 10% whites enjoying 90% wealth & facilities of SAF even then there were hardly any loyalty in every aspect (not only in sports) - their best athletes moved to UK or USA, actors, singers, businessmen.... just used SAF as a platform, because it was easy there - you are competing with handful of people and rest were 3rd class citizen.

It's not the black people are genetically less "tal*nted" in cricket, rather they were categorically denied the opportunity of a level playing field for a century - result is the generation gap, this needs to be fixed first, black kids have to be brought into the game - South African are naturally gifted athletes, once the game is popular among mass, there will be enough black players without quota. There is some quota in every country to bring under privileged minority into competition - in Canada we have quotas for Iniuts, Metis, Indians ... even for Federal jobs - Blacks are not even minority in SAF, it's their country!!!! Long, long back, in 1930s one white idiot said that West Indian team should not have black batsmen because batting it too complicated for their thick brain, may be they can try in bowling which is basically a labor's job - even that time though there was one George Headley ..... that comment aged well indeed.

I have said it many times in past - the only way forward for SAF is quota system, which might be harsh for few current generation white players/coaches, but in the long run it'll be beneficiary for SAF cricket. Look at England soccer teams - Viv Anderson was first black man in three lion's shirt in 1977 ..... or this wonderful French team, in 2018 WC winning team there were about 3/4 "French" - rest were black or Arab.... same thing will happen in SAF cricket - or other way, if it doesn't happen, then SAF will go down the ZIM route in cricket, may not be that low.

You assume that black kids can be brought up to like cricket. They can't - it's football or nothing.

There are a few black families which are effectively living in the same world as whites - think of the Rabada family.

Then there are families like the Bavuma family where cricket is not really a big thing, but the son is a talented ball player and cricket quotas get him a scholarship to a "white" school.

But for most black people, life in townships and the country is really tough. You don't need facilities to play football, and enough of it is on free-to-air TV so that they grow up familiar with it.

Cricket can no more take off in South Africa among black people than American Football or Baseball can take off in England or Italy. It's never going to happen.

 

[Prince of Pakistan]

They'll be among top cricket teams in few years time - you can recall this thread that time.

What SAF is doing can't be supported, but I can understand the logic - may be they have over cooked it but this is the only way for this game to have a long-term future there. Unless SAF makes this game popular among 90%+ brutal non white majority, there is no future of cricket there. On top of that, their white players/people give a damn about the country - sounds harsh, but that's reality. Instead of fighting it out for a spot, every white player has used the excuse for a kolpak back-door.

Today we read about kolpak and racial discriminations (against whites), but when 10% whites enjoying 90% wealth & facilities of SAF even then there were hardly any loyalty in every aspect (not only in sports) - their best athletes moved to UK or USA, actors, singers, businessmen.... just used SAF as a platform, because it was easy there - you are competing with handful of people and rest were 3rd class citizen.

It's not the black people are genetically less "tal*nted" in cricket, rather they were categorically denied the opportunity of a level playing field for a century - result is the generation gap, this needs to be fixed first, black kids have to be brought into the game - South African are naturally gifted athletes, once the game is popular among mass, there will be enough black players without quota. There is some quota in every country to bring under privileged minority into competition - in Canada we have quotas for Iniuts, Metis, Indians ... even for Federal jobs - Blacks are not even minority in SAF, it's their country!!!! Long, long back, in 1930s one white idiot said that West Indian team should not have black batsmen because batting it too complicated for their thick brain, may be they can try in bowling which is basically a labor's job - even that time though there was one George Headley ..... that comment aged well indeed.

I have said it many times in past - the only way forward for SAF is quota system, which might be harsh for few current generation white players/coaches, but in the long run it'll be beneficiary for SAF cricket. Look at England soccer teams - Viv Anderson was first black man in three lion's shirt in 1977 ..... or this wonderful French team, in 2018 WC winning team there were about 3/4 "French" - rest were black or Arab.... same thing will happen in SAF cricket - or other way, if it doesn't happen, then SAF will go down the ZIM route in cricket, may not be that low.

For some reason ever since cricket has become more fast paced, tactical and with all the changes from the 90's on all black teams have struggled in the game. On the other side teams like India, Pak and Lanka became forces from the 90's on since these developmental changes in the game.

I can't place it and have thought that money in other sports was the cause, but the West Indies with all these dollar leagues on still aren't producing world class cricketers like they used to in the 80's or early 90's.

I really hope SA improves and the black cricketers become pioneers. Cricket desperately needs SA doing well.

 

[Giannis]

You assume that black kids can be brought up to like cricket. They can't - it's football or nothing.

There are a few black families which are effectively living in the same world as whites - think of the Rabada family.

Then there are families like the Bavuma family where cricket is not really a big thing, but the son is a talented ball player and cricket quotas get him a scholarship to a "white" school.

But for most black people, life in townships and the country is really tough. You don't need facilities to play football, and enough of it is on free-to-air TV so that they grow up familiar with it.

Cricket can no more take off in South Africa among black people than American Football or Baseball can take off in England or Italy. It's never going to happen.

If cricket can take off in poor south asian countries and they can compete and win at the world stage then there's no reason it can not take off among black people of south africa, if anything they have better infrastructure and once the Europeans inevitably leave South Africa in the next century, all those stadiums and academies will fall into the hands of the Natives.

 

[MMHS]

You assume that black kids can be brought up to like cricket. They can't - it's football or nothing.

There are a few black families which are effectively living in the same world as whites - think of the Rabada family.

Then there are families like the Bavuma family where cricket is not really a big thing, but the son is a talented ball player and cricket quotas get him a scholarship to a "white" school.

But for most black people, life in townships and the country is really tough. You don't need facilities to play football, and enough of it is on free-to-air TV so that they grow up familiar with it.

Cricket can no more take off in South Africa among black people than American Football or Baseball can take off in England or Italy. It's never going to happen.

Do you know exactly this was said almost by words few decades back regarding tennis & golf in USA until a Tiger Woods or Williams sisters rocked the world.

American Football or Baseball is quite illogical comparison - first, in UK there are equivalent substitutes in Rugby & Cricket. Second, American Football or Baseball will be imported to UK, cricket is not an import to SAF, rather it's a sports that was denied to them by racial discrimination. Third, it’s foolish to think that if cricket can flourish in South Asia or Caribbean, poverty can keep SAF’s black communities out of it. Even if 20% of its population is much larger pool than the entire white population of SAF.

Cricket is a traditional British game spread out though British colonial empire, therefore example of Italy is not a wise example - soccer is by far the most popular game in world, but still it's not among top six in USA. Italy is a country of ball games - soccer, Volleyball, handball, basketball..... their people are familiar with similar sports and that’s why Rugby has flourished in Italy (& Argentina) - it’s not the same in SAF for cricket; you are not importing an unknown game there. I have seen plenty of black crowd in South African games - people are coming to the sports, which is the first step. There was Basil D’ Oliviera even when black people were not even allowed to enter stadiums, therefore I don’t find any substance in your logic.

 

[MMHS]

For some reason ever since cricket has become more fast paced, tactical and with all the changes from the 90's on all black teams have struggled in the game. On the other side teams like India, Pak and Lanka became forces from the 90's on since these developmental changes in the game.

I can't place it and have thought that money in other sports was the cause, but the West Indies with all these dollar leagues on still aren't producing world class cricketers like they used to in the 80's or early 90's.

I really hope SA improves and the black cricketers become pioneers. Cricket desperately needs SA doing well.

It’s financials, nothing else.

Which are the black cricket countries - only two - WIN & UK, and now SAF is coming into it. If you look at payments of different sports, cricket pays considerably lower than soccer, athletics or US sports, even rugby pays lot more, hence top talents are not going to cricket anymore. Black players are dominating every other games, some are even more tactical than cricket (NFL, Basketball, Baseball), therefore it’s not that changes in cricket is going above black heads. In fact, an NFL game often consists of 200+ pages of play book ..... and in NBA, they adopt tactics by seconds. Do you really think cricket is more complicated than the way this black French guy Ngolo Kante controls the game in between lines? Or the way Kawai Leonard distributes a basketball?

Black people are naturally athletic, stronger and more in to sports - they are genetically more gifted to adopt any sports. Every sports need some basic physical attributes - muscle strength, reflex, balance, coordination between limbs.... and given same nutrition, facilities, a black kid is likely to out do other races in physical games. In Caribbean & UK, talented black kids have found that the career prospects (of a pro sportsman) is much, much better in other sports than cricket - even a minor league baseball contract (there are hundreds of such clubs in USA) or a league 2 soccer contract in UK pays you more than what you can earn from English County, forget about Caribbean leagues.

One of the main reasons of decline in WIN cricket is the economic hardship in UK cricket leagues - till 1980s, hundreds of Caribbean cricketers used to play in UK - top players in counties, others in leagues around London, Birmingham, Manchester & Yorkshire. Now, that window is almost closed - hardly any money in cricket anywhere compared to other alternatives. For a population of less than 2mn, Caribbeans (West Indians) are the greatest sporting population in earth - they are good at everything they play ..... among which, cricket & hockey pays considerably lowest, hence top talents are moving into other sports in a globalised world where if you are good at your trait, you have the whole world to sell it.

 

[tyron_woodley]

It’s financials, nothing else.

Which are the black cricket countries - only two - WIN & UK, and now SAF is coming into it. If you look at payments of different sports, cricket pays considerably lower than soccer, athletics or US sports, even rugby pays lot more, hence top talents are not going to cricket anymore. Black players are dominating every other games, some are even more tactical than cricket (NFL, Basketball, Baseball), therefore it’s not that changes in cricket is going above black heads. In fact, an NFL game often consists of 200+ pages of play book ..... and in NBA, they adopt tactics by seconds. Do you really think cricket is more complicated than the way this black French guy Ngolo Kante controls the game in between lines? Or the way Kawai Leonard distributes a basketball?

Black people are naturally athletic, stronger and more in to sports - they are genetically more gifted to adopt any sports. Every sports need some basic physical attributes - muscle strength, reflex, balance, coordination between limbs.... and given same nutrition, facilities, a black kid is likely to out do other races in physical games. In Caribbean & UK, talented black kids have found that the career prospects (of a pro sportsman) is much, much better in other sports than cricket - even a minor league baseball contract (there are hundreds of such clubs in USA) or a league 2 soccer contract in UK pays you more than what you can earn from English County, forget about Caribbean leagues.

One of the main reasons of decline in WIN cricket is the economic hardship in UK cricket leagues - till 1980s, hundreds of Caribbean cricketers used to play in UK - top players in counties, others in leagues around London, Birmingham, Manchester & Yorkshire. Now, that window is almost closed - hardly any money in cricket anywhere compared to other alternatives. For a population of less than 2mn, Caribbeans (West Indians) are the greatest sporting population in earth - they are good at everything they play ..... among which, cricket & hockey pays considerably lowest, hence top talents are moving into other sports in a globalised world where if you are good at your trait, you have the whole world to sell it.

How you are raised matters. How tough your environment is and if you have been involved in hard tough physical labour work since a young age.

 

[Gabbar Singh]

Seems CSA didn’t sign up Kallis again because he was the wrong colour of skin. What a silly policy, now reversed however wouldn’t be surprised if it’s reintroduced again at some point.

CSA steps back from affirmative action policy on hiring consultants

https://nationscoop.in/sports/csa-steps-back-from-affirmative-action-policy-on-hiring-consultants/