England Test squad needs an Australia style purge

[MenInG]

Not good enough to be winning at home and looking like amateurs overseas

England selectors need to step up and stop the rot or the team will become the laughing stock of the cricket world

 

[Swanny]

Eng team is strong. Won in SA too. Performed better than SA & NZ in India. Yes they drew the series with Pak at home but that's becoz Pak generally play well in Eng.

 

[Noman]

Eng team is strong. Won in SA too. Performed better than SA & NZ in India. Yes they drew the series with Pak at home but that's becoz Pak generally play well in Eng.

These cricket wickets was batting paradise. Sa and Nz was playing on very very turning pitches.. I am a supporter of good cricket. This is disgracefull performance by England in my view.. Even Bangladesh would have played cricket on these batting pitches. Disgracefull performance! Cook should be fired. KP should been in this team.

 

[Robert]

I don't think there should be a purge. Small tweaks will be enough. Cook should stand down as skipper so he can concentrate on run production again. Root should drop a place in the order and Bairstow should not have the gloves.

The paucity of spin bowling in England has been horribly exposed on this tour. Seven matches, one win and five losses, several by thumping margins.

It would help if Mark Wood could stay fit. Anderson is near the end and Broad probably needs a long rest too.

 

[Convict]

I don't think there should be a purge. Small tweaks will be enough. Cook should stand down as skipper so he can concentrate on run production again. Root should drop a place in the order and Bairstow should not have the gloves.

The paucity of spin bowling in England has been horribly exposed on this tour. Seven matches, one win and five losses, several by thumping margins.

It would help if Mark Wood could stay fit. Anderson is near the end and Broad probably needs a long rest too.

Pretty much this.

Australia was stuck in a cycle of small fix it selections after small fix it selection so needed a full purge once we realised we were stagnating.

England had that issue are 2013/14 but have done well under Bayliss at rejuvenating the squad.

 

[Slog]

Australia will get smashed into smithereens in India right now

England competed in 2 and half tests

 

[Indiafan]

Australia will get smashed into smithereens in India right now

England competed in 2 and half tests

Warner would have scored double hundreds on these flat pitches

 

[Aman]

Warner would have scored double hundreds on these flat pitches

Don't forget Smith.. he probably would have scored a ton in every Test.

 

[Slog]

Warner would have scored double hundreds on these flat pitches

was talking from bowlers perspective

Hazelwood and Starc were physically spent after bowling long in Gabba under cloudy conditions

and dont think Lyon is better than Rashid in Asia

 

[MenInG]

4 zip

Indian fast bowlers outperforming England bowlers on placid pitches

If Anderson and Co had some shame they would themselves ask for a break

 

[Bilal7]

They can't really drop anyone from this squad other than Ballance, Dawson, Batty and that one guy who batted at #4 for them. The other players have all been good or will be good once they go back to England.

Australia needed a purge because their players were simply not good enough, irrespective of conditions. The English players are quality at home or in similar conditions even if they may not have the tools to compete in Asia right now.

 

[HitWicket]

Don't need a purge at all, just the finding of high quality spinner.

 

[JaDed]

We would had managed a draw probably here against Aus and other sides,English just gave up.

 

[Pete Rose]

England's inability to withstand pressure in their second innings is abysmal.

 

[Swanny]

These cricket wickets was batting paradise. Sa and Nz was playing on very very turning pitches.. I am a supporter of good cricket. This is disgracefull performance by England in my view.. Even Bangladesh would have played cricket on these batting pitches. Disgracefull performance! Cook should be fired. KP should been in this team.

KP no way. Cook can't score those big hundreds anymore for whatever reason. Root also needs to start converting those pretty 50s into hundreds. Eng need atleast one more specialist batsman in the squad instead of 3 all-rounders.

 

[MMHS]

Thought, with their "all-rounders" England should have a rough time in those 10 Tests is India & Australia; but didn't expect this.

4-0 in first half with IND batting 6 times in 4 wins (would have been 5 had they forced follow on in 2nd Test) - worse to come.

Poms got a bit hyper with a series win against understrength SAF but, since that 2-1 in India; they have 5-0 in UAE - would have been 6-0 had Yasir played that Abu Dhabi Test (or PCB not chickened out to opt for that wicket once Yasir was out); lost 5-0 down under; lost a series at home to Lanka; managed 1-1 against Kiwis at home & against WI/BD away & finally 2-2 against PAK at home. Not sure why they were so highly rated in Test - in last few years their best performance in Asia is a 22 run win at Chittagong & they will get another hiding if they tour SRL now.


Even in ODI, if Aussies play their full squad, ODI series will also end 6-0 or so, even after the "born again" England ODI team. I think, having a strong cricket media helps you lot.

 

[Robert]

England's inability to withstand pressure in their second innings is abysmal.

It is curious given their excellent record in this area of just a few years ago.

 

[Bewal Express]

I agree with Nasser when he said that you need great fast bowlers and good spinners in these conditions and England don't have either. For all the hype Broad and Anderson have little impact when the wickets are flat, and you can't underestimate the impact the Du Plessis decision has had on the lack of reverse swing. I don't buy into this theory about the lusher fields in Ind as the reason, to put it bluntly when he got caught , part of England's plan got rumbled. England is still good and as most of the team is young, they will say strong for the next few years. At least they did better than I thought, I predicted 5-0 to Ind.

 

[Pete Rose]

It is curious given their excellent record in this area of just a few years ago.

I really dont understand this. Maybe its been a long tour, maybe they are tired. Whats your reading of Bayliss? I dont like him (in that I dont think he is the right man for the job)? And I suspect his coaching philosophy is far better suited to England's limited over sides rather than their test sides.

 

[street cricketer]

They have not actually been hat dire a team that deserves a 4 nil scoreline tbh. India had a lot of passengers in its team when it lost 4 nil in 2011. But this England team actually has a lot of young talented players who can play for a long time for England. It's just that you need a quality spinner to trouble the Indian batsmen in India and also they ran into a young Indian team who are a machine at home.

I find it unbelievable that there is not a single test class spinner in the entire county circuit, let alone a world class one. Rashid was decent but not actually great. Moeen was flat for the most part. You can't win a test series in India with such spinners. They're desperately missing Swann. They will have to find one soon to compete here next time around. Otherwise the end result might more or less be the same next time around as well.

Secondly there are too many all rounders. I know that's a good headache to have, but sometimes you need specialist players to do specialist jobs. England need to stop selecting spinners for their batting. Even if the guy is an absolute dud with the bat, but if he can bowl genuine spin he needs to be the first place in the team. Moeen is a partime spinner while Rashid is a decent spinner but not a dependable one (although he is improving a bit). Having too many all rounders might be a problem too. They probably need to select an old fashioned 5/6 genuine batsmen + wicketkeeper + 4 genuine bowlers. At the moment, their batting is hit or miss and too dependent on their all rounders, which was exposed ruthlessly by India this series.

They should play the below team against the Saffers at home.

Cook (c)
Hameed
Jennings
Root
Bairstow
Stokes
Buttler (wk)
Rashid/Moeen
Woakes
Broad
Anderson

Bairstow needs to bat up the order and give up the gloves. If Bairstow doesn't want to give up the gloves, then he should bat at 6, Moeen at 5, Stokes at 7 while Buttler has to sit out. Root has to play at 4.

 

[rollingstoned]

Thought, with their "all-rounders" England should have a rough time in those 10 Tests is India & Australia; but didn't expect this.

4-0 in first half with IND batting 6 times in 4 wins (would have been 5 had they forced follow on in 2nd Test) - worse to come.

Poms got a bit hyper with a series win against understrength SAF but, since that 2-1 in India; they have 5-0 in UAE - would have been 6-0 had Yasir played that Abu Dhabi Test (or PCB not chickened out to opt for that wicket once Yasir was out); lost 5-0 down under; lost a series at home to Lanka; managed 1-1 against Kiwis at home & against WI/BD away & finally 2-2 against PAK at home. Not sure why they were so highly rated in Test - in last few years their best performance in Asia is a 22 run win at Chittagong & they will get another hiding if they tour SRL now.


Even in ODI, if Aussies play their full squad, ODI series will also end 6-0 or so, even after the "born again" England ODI team. I think, having a strong cricket media helps you lot.

They have been dropping a lot of tests for people to rate them as high as they do actually. Apart from when they have had a bit of rub of the green going their way like Baz losing his head in that first lord's test, Pakistan collapsing when they could have sealed a series win, nearly losing series to Bangladesh and running into SAF without Steyn and Philander in that crucial Joburg test where one session of fortuitous counter attacking cricket won it for them. The Aussie series where they got a lot of praise they dropped 2 tests too.

 

[Markhor]

I really dont understand this. Maybe its been a long tour, maybe they are tired. Whats your reading of Bayliss? I dont like him (in that I dont think he is the right man for the job)? And I suspect his coaching philosophy is far better suited to England's limited over sides rather than their test sides.

The Test team has gone downhill under Bayliss. The blunderbuss approach to selection has led to constant tinkering and numerous selection duds along the way - namely Lyth, Hales, Compton, Ballance and Vince. Bayliss himself admits he hasn't seen much county cricket.

The way he undermined Nick Compton in public earlier this year, saying he'd like 2 of his 3 top-order batsmen to be "dynamic", was damaging as it led to Compton trying to play an unnatural game. And by promoting Root he's ended up weakening the middle order.

Whilst Bayliss cannot be blamed for the shortage of quality spinners, the selections can be criticised. Jack Leach had a great county season but was excluded in favour of an over the hill Gareth Batty and Zafar Ansari who doesn't look international class. Suddenly, its been leaked that England had "concerns" over Leach's action - really ? Then why is Leach with the England Lions in the UAE ? Vic Marks on TMS said it best - it sounds like ECB are trying to cover their backside.

 

[Last Monetarist]

Disagree with all notions of a selection purge. I think Cook has reached the end of his tether and realizes it in all probability. I think the likes of Jennings and Hameed are worth persisting with going into an Ashes year, and I think backing the incumbent(s) in situ is something that Strauss and co have been categorically insistent upon. England were always likely to be hammered in India because of the lack of quality in bowling; Anderson, Broad and Woakes all had fitness concerns which hampered the effectiveness of the seam attack & we all know the dearth in the spin cupboard. I think England will be fine going into next summer with a change in captaincy the most probable consequence of this defeat.

As others have said, Bayliss the test coach has covered himself in no glory. However, he is Strauss' pick and I don't think there will be any appetite for a change there before the Ashes.

 

[MMHS]

They have been dropping a lot of tests for people to rate them as high as they do actually. Apart from when they have had a bit of rub of the green going their way like Baz losing his head in that first lord's test, Pakistan collapsing when they could have sealed a series win, nearly losing series to Bangladesh and running into SAF without Steyn and Philander in that crucial Joburg test where one session of fortuitous counter attacking cricket won it for them. The Aussie series where they got a lot of praise they dropped 2 tests too.

If Cook doesn't resign (ENG doesn't sack their Captain - if Cook wants to continue, he'll lead in Ashes), ENG will lose 5-0 down under, you can mark this post. Absolute lack of imagination, extremely defensive Captain, who only once took prompt & pro-active decision in his life - when he & Strauss kicked KP out of the team at first chance.

 

[HitWicket]

The Test team has gone downhill under Bayliss. The blunderbuss approach to selection has led to constant tinkering and numerous selection duds along the way - namely Lyth, Hales, Compton, Ballance and Vince. Bayliss himself admits he hasn't seen much county cricket.

The way he undermined Nick Compton in public earlier this year, saying he'd like 2 of his 3 top-order batsmen to be "dynamic", was damaging as it led to Compton trying to play an unnatural game. And by promoting Root he's ended up weakening the middle order.

Whilst Bayliss cannot be blamed for the shortage of quality spinners, the selections can be criticised. Jack Leach had a great county season but was excluded in favour of an over the hill Gareth Batty and Zafar Ansari who doesn't look international class. Suddenly, its been leaked that England had "concerns" over Leach's action - really ? Then why is Leach with the England Lions in the UAE ? Vic Marks on TMS said it best - it sounds like ECB are trying to cover their backside.

Being reported that Leach undertook a bowling test following his return from the UAE and has been found to have an illegal action.

 

[Buffet]

Eng team is strong. Won in SA too. Performed better than SA & NZ in India. Yes they drew the series with Pak at home but that's becoz Pak generally play well in Eng.

How they performed better ? They won 4 toss and still lost 4 matches heavily on probably the flattest tracks seen in recent years. They would done embarrassingly bad on rank turners because we saw what they did in BD.

 

[Buffet]

Australia will get smashed into smithereens in India right now

England competed in 2 and half tests

Aus is likely to bowl better than Eng.

 

[Slog]

Aus is likely to bowl better than Eng.

Nathan Lyon or O'Keefe will get beating of a lifetime

Unless Starc pulls a Sri Lanka tour it will be many long days in the field for Australia

 

[Buffet]

Nathan Lyon or O'Keefe will get beating of a lifetime

Unless Starc pulls a Sri Lanka tour it will be many long days in the field for Australia

Let's see how it goes. I think Aus as unit will still do better in India. Eng's pacers were horrible in this series except Broad. All of them averaged 50-60.

 

[MMHS]

AUS will do much better, even with bat. First, they are coming after 3 Tests against PAK, second they are not spoiled by bits & pieces syndrome for longer version & third is, they do have few good players. On the wickets last 2 Tests were played, I do expect them to pile up 750+ in 2 innings combined, which should have saved the Test. Last time, when they lost 4-0, wickets were much more spin friendly than the Poms got this time. In fact, if IND keeps same type of track, at least once Strac will get 200+ to defend, where he'll go flat-out for 150KM. Besides, AUS has better spin attack in Lyon & the lefti guy & Josh will be handy anywhere with new ball.

I would have picked Bailey for Test Series & play him at 4.

 

[KhalidRafi]

They can't expect to win a series in Asia until they find a quality spinner. And I don't know if Australia will do any better. Lyon isn't good outside Australia and in SA's case even having a good spinner like Tahir couldn't help avoid a 3-0 beating. And considering how Australia did in Sri Lanka against Herath and co. I don't know if they'll do any better batting-wise either.

 

[Ab Fan]

They had lots of bits & pieces kind of players who cant really run through Indian side in Indian conditions.

Anderson and Broad are world class but have never run through any lineup in India or even in Asia.

Moen, Woakes(outside Eng) and Rashid are bits & pieces and not the ones who can turn the game on their own.

Stokes got a fifer in one of the initial games but again you cant expect him to run through sides in these conditions.

They needed a Swann level bowler for these conditions.

Root has got numbers and stats but lacked serious impact in this series.Could have saved the last test if he digged there.

 

[Ab Fan]

Broad was very impressive though in this series and I think the best pacer in this series if I am not wrong.

 

[transitional]

England team composition

I think there is a disadvantage in having "too many all rounders". If you play an all rounder at 4 and 5 and 6, they may not bat with the same focus and responsobility as a pure batsman. An all rounder always has the cushion of his second skill helping him keep his place in the team. Furthermore, it is tough to expect someone who bowls 40 overs or keeps wickets for 150 overs to score big 150s and 200s batting in top order.

India has Ashwin, Jadeja, Yadav performing all rounder roles, but it was clear that they were in the team as "bowlers", and their runs with bat is kind of a bonus. But it is ridiculous to expect someone like Moeen to make big runs and also perform as a frontline bowler. Same with Bairstow and Stokes to some extent. You should select players only based on one skill, and treat gains from second skill as a bonus.

England missed the likes of Bell, Trott, Pietersen at 3 to 6 in their lineup. Pure batsmen.

 

[JaDed]

Let's see how it goes. I think Aus as unit will still do better in India. Eng's pacers were horrible in this series except Broad. All of them averaged 50-60.

Agree esp if pitches likes Chennai are dished out,I would be worried to say the least.There wasn't a single "dust-bowl" this series.

 

[Ab Fan]

Stokes is a very good all rounder.

Won his team a match in Bangladesh and also was their second best pacer in the India series with a fifer in one of initial matches.

Woakes shouldn't have been there for games in Asia.

Ali was expected to do well with the bowl as conditions would be conducive for him but he was rather taken to cleaners and got exposed.

If Butler bats at 7 he should take the keeping as a specialist batsmen can hardly make impact at no.7 position. This was one major blunder done by English management.

Its hard to expect Bairstow to hit centuries while keeping for 4-5 sessions.

 

[Ab Fan]

England team should be this:

Cook
Hameed
Jennings
Root(C)
Bairstow
Stokes
Butler(wk)
Rashid
Woakes
Anderson
Broad

Three Pacers, Stokes and a genuine spinner is what England should go for.No point in having part-timer spin option.

 

[Vivek_86]

England team should be this:

Cook
Hameed
Jennings
Root(C)
Bairstow
Stokes
Butler(wk)
Rashid
Woakes
Anderson
Broad

Three Pacers, Stokes and a genuine spinner is what England should go for.No point in having part-timer spin option.

Stokes and Butler in the lineup makes batting strength iffy. Although England are drooling over Stokes ,his batting and bowling are not Test level. And Butler , since when did he become test wicketkeeper?

 

[Ab Fan]

Stokes and Butler in the lineup makes batting strength iffy. Although England are drooling over Stokes ,his batting and bowling are not Test level. And Butler , since when did he become test wicketkeeper?

Butler is a good batsmen and has proved himself in this series. However, making him play as specialist bat at 7 is wasting him. So, either you make him keep and play Bairstow as specialist bat or move Butler up the order to 5 so that he can make more impact with his batting.

Stokes is not a test level??Well, he led his team to victory in the only match they won in Asia in their last 10 matches( 5 vs Ind, 2 vs Ban, 3 vs UAE). The conditions weren't suitable for his bowling to do great here but he still managed a fi-fer.His batting could have been better but still he is the best all-rounder they have particularly for non-Asian conditions.

Root, Bairstow, Stokes, Butler i.e. the best middle order they can have.

Also, they need a genuine spinner rather than a part-timer like Moen as the spin bowling option and Rashid has proved himself as the best spinner in the country.

 

[Vivek_86]

Butler is a good batsmen and has proved himself in this series. However, making him play as specialist bat at 7 is wasting him. So, either you make him keep and play Bairstow as specialist bat or move Butler up the order to 5 so that he can make more impact with his batting.

Stokes is not a test level??Well, he led his team to victory in the only match they won in Asia in their last 10 matches( 5 vs Ind, 2 vs Ban, 3 vs UAE). The conditions weren't suitable for his bowling to do great here but he still managed a fi-fer.His batting could have been better but still he is the best all-rounder they have particularly for non-Asian conditions.

Root, Bairstow, Stokes, Butler i.e. the best middle order they can have.

Also, they need a genuine spinner rather than a part-timer like Moen as the spin bowling option and Rashid has proved himself as the best spinner in the country.

Does Stoke make top order solid in test? NO . Does he get enough wickets to hold his place as a bowler? NO . He can demolish attack on a good day in not so tough conditions. So both Butler and Stokes in top order is loose. If both are to be included , make Stokes the third seamer and bat him lower order. And include a proper batsman instead in the top order. Whatever people say he is not a test level batsman . So no top order .

 

[MMHS]

Does Stoke make top order solid in test? NO . Does he get enough wickets to hold his place as a bowler? NO . He can demolish attack on a good day in not so tough conditions. So both Butler and Stokes in top order is loose. If both are to be included , make Stokes the third seamer and bat him lower order. And include a proper batsman instead in the top order. Whatever people say he is not a test level batsman . So no top order .

Thanks, you must be following the game for much longer than your PP debut. People got upset on me, when I wrote almost similar things after PAK-ENG Series; but that time I didn't have their Asian tour dossier at hand

 

[Chief Destroyer]

Nah, they just need a test level spinner and Wood back.

The best batsmen in England are already in the side. That wasn't the case for Australia.

Anderson should not play anywhere except England.

 

[Ab Fan]

Does Stoke make top order solid in test? NO . Does he get enough wickets to hold his place as a bowler? NO . He can demolish attack on a good day in not so tough conditions. So both Butler and Stokes in top order is loose. If both are to be included , make Stokes the third seamer and bat him lower order. And include a proper batsman instead in the top order. Whatever people say he is not a test level batsman . So no top order .

I am not too sure of your point but Stokes would walk into any current team as an All-Rounder at 6 especially for non-Asian conditions.

England are going to face Australians and Saffers in an year time and Stokes would do well against them as he enjoys pace and bounce and the bowling conditions are conducive for him in those places.

There is no specialist bat option available for England in place of Butler which has proved his worth. So, the best option out there is Butler who can take the gloves and wasn't a failure in India too.

 

[Vivek_86]

Thanks, you must be following the game for much longer than your PP debut. People got upset on me, when I wrote almost similar things after PAK-ENG Series; but that time I didn't have their Asian tour dossier at hand

On another note I have been a keen follower of PP for about ten years.

 

[Vivek_86]

I am not too sure of your point but Stokes would walk into any current team as an All-Rounder at 6 especially for non-Asian conditions.

England are going to face Australians and Saffers in an year time and Stokes would do well against them as he enjoys pace and bounce and the bowling conditions are conducive for him in those places.

There is no specialist bat option available for England in place of Butler which has proved his worth. So, the best option out there is Butler who can take the gloves and wasn't a failure in India too.

It is the concept of both Stokes and Butler that is the problem according to me. That South Africa pitch where he scored double ton was flat as a pancake. Even Wasim Jaffer scored ton there. But if it is a little bit conducive for bowling , that lineup will be thin. If anything his batting stats in India series flattered him.

 

[msb314]

England's batting has been decent in this tour but the bowling has been a huge letdown.

I am sorry but if you let a 3rd match debutant score an international triple century - your bowling is garbage.

Moeen just does not cut it - probably just makes the team on his batting but his bowling should only be used on a part time basis (i.e to give the main bowlers a rest)

The top 4 should be proper batsman and not psuedo all rounders

1) Cook
2) Hameed
3) Root
4) Ballance

Cook is in fact on a knife's edge IMO.

 

[Ab Fan]

Thanks, you must be following the game for much longer than your PP debut. People got upset on me, when I wrote almost similar things after PAK-ENG Series; but that time I didn't have their Asian tour dossier at hand

Well [MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION], you do know Ban might have won 2-0 vs England if there wasn't a name called Benjamin Stokes in the playing XI.

The dossier needs to be taken into consideration with right perspective.

 

[Ab Fan]

It is the concept of both Stokes and Butler that is the problem according to me. That South Africa pitch where he scored double ton was flat as a pancake. Even Wasim Jaffer scored ton there. But if it is a little bit conducive for bowling , that lineup will be thin. If anything his batting stats in India series flattered him.

England dont have better options. There is no replacement for the combo. Both makes the team on merit.

Stokes is better vs pace. It was wrong if people were expecting him to do wonders in this series. The conditions weren't conducive enough for him.

He had a poor series vs bat but still is the best batting All rounder available.

 

[Vivek_86]

Well [MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION], you do know Ban might have won 2-0 vs England if there wasn't a name called Benjamin Stokes in the playing XI.

The dossier needs to be taken into consideration with right perspective.

West Indies might not have pulled off a World record chase if it was not for Omari Ahamed Clement Banks . It is the general performance we are talking about not one off . Even Agarkar ran though a gun batting line up on a flat track in Adelaide. That is not regular though.

 

[Ab Fan]

West Indies might not have pulled off a World record chase if it was not for Omari Ahamed Clement Banks . It is the general performance we are talking about not one off . Even Agarkar ran though a gun batting line up on a flat track in Adelaide. That is not regular though.

Nobody has performed regular in either of two series. Neither cook nor Anderson.Not even Root.

 

[Buffet]

They had lots of bits & pieces kind of players who cant really run through Indian side in Indian conditions.

Anderson and Broad are world class but have never run through any lineup in India or even in Asia.

Moen, Woakes(outside Eng) and Rashid are bits & pieces and not the ones who can turn the game on their own.

Stokes got a fifer in one of the initial games but again you cant expect him to run through sides in these conditions.

They needed a Swann level bowler for these conditions.

Root has got numbers and stats but lacked serious impact in this series.Could have saved the last test if he digged there.

He has been disappointing to be honest. He got so many starts and PPers will point to his average in series, but you don't win or draw tests on back of 60-70 runs. You do need to score big, but then he has not scored big often when playing outside Eng. He just has 3 tons when playing outside of home. One in Rajkot where others batted well from Eng and one in WI. One in SA where Vern and Steyn were missing. That's his grand total of 3 tons when playing outside. He needs to score big after getting so many cute 50s.

 

[transitional]

England must select top 5 purely based on their batting talent and first class record.

Right now their 4,5,6 average:
Moeen-34
Bairstow-41
Stokes- 33

Compare that to KP, Bell, Trott, Prior etc all averaged between 45 to low 50s.

If you have solid top 5, then I can understand playing stokes at 6 and keeper-batsman at 7, Woakes at 8. But Moeen and Bairstow at 4 and 5 is just not good enough.

 

[Vivek_86]

And Moeen is now becoming Raina of short ball

 

[MMHS]

Well [MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION], you do know Ban might have won 2-0 vs England if there wasn't a name called Benjamin Stokes in the playing XI.

The dossier needs to be taken into consideration with right perspective.

True - but, I am not sure if that I'll take as a positive for Benjamin Stokes or a negative for England cricket team - it's all relative you know. As far as perspective is concerned - I understand that someone batting at 5 should make the team on pure batting merit, or some one playing as a bowler should have at least 35 overs/Test - after that, if he can bat at 5, well we had examples of Gary Sobers, Kieth Miller, Jaques Kallis, Imran Khan, Ian Botham & Kapil Dev for that. Taking 2/3 players in between doesn't make the team stronger when it matters.

 

[Ab Fan]

True - but, I am not sure if that I'll take as a positive for Benjamin Stokes or a negative for England cricket team - it's all relative you know. As far as perspective is concerned - I understand that someone batting at 5 should make the team on pure batting merit, or some one playing as a bowler should have at least 35 overs/Test - after that, if he can bat at 5, well we had examples of Gary Sobers, Kieth Miller, Jaques Kallis, Imran Khan, Ian Botham & Kapil Dev for that. Taking 2/3 players in between doesn't make the team stronger when it matters.

Yes, I agree Stokes batting wasn't that impressive in the India series but he would make it to any current team as an AR at no.6. Its not necessary that he has to become a Botham/ Kapil to be regarded as a successful player.

Moen just doesn't make the cut as he struggles vs short ball and upcoming series are against Saffers and then Aussies. So, Stokes makes it quite easily at no.6 as he will be more significant contributor both with bat and ball than Moen would be and you need one genuine spinner in your team which has to be Rashid.

Bits and pieces dont really work always. Its time players need to know what is the main role for which they are in the team.

 

[MMHS]

Composition changes for condition, hence I'll stick to ENG's next 2 major assignments - SAF at home & Ashes down under. And, I'll pick 12 players to keep option of 1 or 2 spinners. I keep Cook as Captain till he finishes his thinking & I'll take Hameed as opener over Jennings. And, I am not calling KP back

I think, ENG's bowling combination at home is perfect. They can pick both all-rounders Woakes & Stokes, and probably can pick both Adil & Moeen for Oval & Lord's; but not at Leeds & Traford. The key is, who is going to keep, the bowling pair & batting order -

Home series (SAF) -

1/2. Cook, Hameed
3. Bell - he'll be 35 next April & I do feel ECB did injustice to him, which costed them at least the Chennai Test
4. Root
5. Johnny
6. Stokes
7. Moeen
8. Butler/WK - the idea is to play a specialist WK, if it's Josh, fine; but Johnny shouldn't keep, rather focus on batting at 5
9. Woakes/Adil
10. Broad
11. Anderson

Adil & Wokes shouldn't play in same match. On drier surface, I'll play Adil, on greener/wet surface I'll pick Woakes.

In Ashes, it has to be a tough call - players will be 1 year older. I'll still keep Bell in XII, but not sure for others.

1/2. Cook/Hameed
3. Bell - he'll still below 36; should be better than Ducket or Ballance.
4. Root 5. Johnny 6. Stokes
7. Butler - I take him as WK, even for a little keeping sacrifice as lower order batting will be required in AUS. Also, it's a bit easier in AUS to keep than Asia or ENG. This is one tough call I am not sure - Moeen has shown weakness against short ball in India, not sure how he is going to manage down under. Besides, I'll play one spinner in AUS & that has to be leggi Adil. For few overs off-spin, Root can manage - if Moeen is to make the team, it has to be on pure batting merit - that's in place of Bell & he'll bat at 5, pushing Root, Johnny one slot up - Moeen won't survive at 3 in either case. So, it's a contest between Moeen & Bell, not Moeen & Adil
8. Adil
9. Broad/Woakes
10. Mark Wood or the fastest English pacer of 2017 summer
11. Finn

If it's a green top (Or the D/N Test), may be Woakes can come for Berbi or Wood, but I would keep 3 men pace attack on pure bowling merit. Stokes should be handy for his reverse swing, but not as 3rd seemer, I am not sure if Woakes can keep his spot unless he can bowl 35 overs/Test on bowling merit. Half measures doesn't work much there.

Unfortunately, no place for Jimmy in AUS - he was never good there, now he'll be pathetic. He should focus on fitness & wait for Asians again in 2018 summer - Mcgrath is gone, his only chance is to catch Walsh - if he tours AUS, he'll be forced to retire after the Ashes.

The future doesn't look blue though, the future looks Baggy Green to me - 5 times

 

[MMHS]

Yes, I agree Stokes batting wasn't that impressive in the India series but he would make it to any current team as an AR at no.6. Its not necessary that he has to become a Botham/ Kapil to be regarded as a successful player.

Moen just doesn't make the cut as he struggles vs short ball and upcoming series are against Saffers and then Aussies. So, Stokes makes it quite easily at no.6 as he will be more significant contributor both with bat and ball than Moen would be and you need one genuine spinner in your team which has to be Rashid.

Bits and pieces dont really work always. Its time players need to know what is the main role for which they are in the team.

Agreed, check my team for the 2 series. Even then, Poms might loss 7 or 8 of the 9 Tests.

 

[Ab Fan]

Agreed, check my team for the 2 series. Even then, Poms might loss 7 or 8 of the 9 Tests.

Agreed. England tough phase has just begun and it doesn't look getting better.

Anderson has past it and would struggle in non-friendly conditions.

Cook will have to face the likes of Steyn, Rabada, Vern, Starc, Hazlewood in an year time and his record vs quality Pacers isn't good at all.

Woakes, I am not too sure of him outside England.Spinners aren't any impressive.

Really, not enough strong points to be talked of.England need a Finn at his peak in Australia to do well.

 

[Pantani]

I think they have a pretty solid team moving forward, I would pick:

Cook
Hameed
Jennings
Root
Bairstow
Moeen
Stokes
Buttler (wk)
Woakes
Broad
Ball

Serious batting depth and good enough bowling everywhere as long as it doesn't spin. Their problems in Asia can only be solved by picking world class spin bowlers, which Moeen, Rashid and Zadar are not.

 

[hur rizvi]

They are pretty good at home. Just dont have any quality spinners atm

 

[Robert]

I really dont understand this. Maybe its been a long tour, maybe they are tired. Whats your reading of Bayliss? I dont like him (in that I dont think he is the right man for the job)? And I suspect his coaching philosophy is far better suited to England's limited over sides rather than their test sides.

If there is one mistake he has made it is putting Root at #3. English sides out their big gun at #4. Lack of top order runs has been the problem for a while. Cook is jaded and worn out, and since Strauss retired nobody has really stepped up to open with him. That could be changing with the emergence of Hameed and Jennings.

The next problem is that Finn and Wood are not stepping up to support Anderson and Broad. Jimmy should be coming on first change overseas now, reversing the old ball.

Thirdly, the ECB pitches are usually homogenous low and slow tracks. We never see a turning wicket any more so spinners are not developing. Neither do we see a flier. The groundsmen are all scared that their club will get fined and docked points do they make wickets that hold together for the whole four days with no turn, no bounce and not even much seam. So our current batters do not have a rounded education and cannot cope on anything else.

So really - this is a long-term job for the ECB Chairman, not Bayliss.

 

[HitWicket]

[MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION] Bell had a relatively poor county season and averaged 29.52 in his last 2 years of international cricket. Just drop him out for Jennings.

Finn has been dreadful recently and shouldn't be close to the team in the next year unless he does something drastic. Jake Balls just as fast and better with the ball right now.

 

[MenInG]

Robert

Don't think this is as simple as Root's batting position

There have been consistent catastrophic batting failures and I doubt moving people up or down the batting order would have lead to England winning the series

 

[JaDed]

Stokes is a very good all rounder imo,the way he fought in some of the sessions was actually very good,the potential of him/Root is high lets see if they achieve that.

Wokes still has to improve and Moen is just a batsman,Adil might come good in future doesn't look that bad.England are missing pure fast bowlers,there was a good article on Guardian on things to improve but they don't believe pace bowlers are an issue.


https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2016/dec/20/england-india-test-series-alastair-cook

 

[Robert]

Robert

Don't think this is as simple as Root's batting position

Yes, that is why I also mentioned Cook being jaded, a lack of a second opener of credibility, problems with the fitness of the seamers, the paucity of spin in the English game, and how the entire system is set up wrong.

Thorough enough for you?

 

[Cricfan4eva]

They are pretty good at home. Just dont have any quality spinners atm

Not sure if they are pretty good at home anymore.

They drew vs NZ, Pak and lost to SL at home. They did beat Aus but it was 3-2, only side they convincingly beat was India.

Away as well their record is mixed, while they beat SA but drew vs WI and BD which kind of puts the SA win in context as they did face SA who were going through their lowest period in a long while.

 

[Slog]

Not sure if they are pretty good at home anymore.

They drew vs NZ, Pak and lost to SL at home. They did beat Aus but it was 3-2, only side they convincingly beat was India.

Away as well their record is mixed, while they beat SA but drew vs WI and BD which kind of puts the SA win in context as they did face SA who were going through their lowest period in a long while.

they beat india 3-1 couple of weeks after losing to SL so mention that

 

[Ab Fan]

He has been disappointing to be honest. He got so many starts and PPers will point to his average in series, but you don't win or draw tests on back of 60-70 runs. You do need to score big, but then he has not scored big often when playing outside Eng. He just has 3 tons when playing outside of home. One in Rajkot where others batted well from Eng and one in WI. One in SA where Vern and Steyn were missing. That's his grand total of 3 tons when playing outside. He needs to score big after getting so many cute 50s.

Yeah, on other hand, I think Smith on these pitches would have easily got a couple of daddy hundreds as he rarely misses out once he gets set. The conditions were easier for batting too.

Its very much possible that if Smith gets pitches similar to what England got, he could well replicate something similar to what Kohli did in Australia.

That is a big plus with Smith- the hunger for runs is really big once he finds scoring runs easier.

 

[Cricfan4eva]

they beat india 3-1 couple of weeks after losing to SL so mention that

I did mention they convincingly beat India? But that doesn't change the fact that they are not as good a team at home as most of the other sides are. And away as well they have their highs and lows. Far from a consistent team.

 

[Slog]

I did mention they convincingly beat India? But that doesn't change the fact that they are not as good a team at home as most of the other sides are. And away as well they have their highs and lows. Far from a consistent team.

They also beat SL convincingly

 

[Cricfan4eva]

They also beat SL convincingly

Umm SL beat them 1-0 when they toured England last. :/


NVM looks like I completely forgot about the 2016 series My bad.. For some reason I remembered the 2014 series as being the last one.

 

[MMHS]

[MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION] Bell had a relatively poor county season and averaged 29.52 in his last 2 years of international cricket. Just drop him out for Jennings.

Finn has been dreadful recently and shouldn't be close to the team in the next year unless he does something drastic. Jake Balls just as fast and better with the ball right now.

I have seen Bell's County record, but at this level he is beyond a FC season. ~120 Test, ~8K runs at 42+ & 22 hundreds, mostly from No. 3 is what ENG missing badly. It's not about what he has done in County season, rather if he is still hungry enough or not. At this age, he must have a family, kids - if he wants to have a peaceful life, with a bit of cricket for Warwickshire, fair enough, just retire from ENG team.

But, if he is willing to walk the tough miles, bring him in the Test team immediately & give him unconditional 7 Tests at home. It'll be enough testimony to see if Class or form is permanent - I tend to favor class. My hunch is, if he puts his mind in it, he'll do well in AUS more than anyone, barring Root. Traditionally, ENG plays best middle order at No. 4, therefore if Root goes down, almost every time he'll face opening pair of SAF/AUS in their first spell if Moeen or Ducket or Jennings or Compton is to bat at 3. Compton had a great County season, & then he had not so great Test season at 3 - I think, it'll be opposite for Bell; that's class. He is far better than his 42 average to be honest; otherwise ENG's 4-6 is Moeen, Johnny, Stokes - Aussies will be waiting for them, trust me.

 

[MMHS]

[MENTION=139981]HitWicket[/MENTION]

One more key point ENG missed (And, it's because of lack of understanding of handling spinners) is that, there are 6/7 left-handers in ENG line-up; with Jennings, it's 4 (Cook, Jennings, Moeen, Stokes) out of top 6 - add Ducket & Balance in reserve. This brought Miraj is the game, it made Ashwin almost MoS (he was my MoS, instrumental in 1st 2 wins & saved the 1st one, when it mattered most) & this will fit into Aussie's combination perfectly - they'll play Lyon in every Test. Even IND dropped Mishra for Yadav only for this, otherwise they didn't need runs from No. 8. This has to be broken - I'll take Bell for all 7 Summer Tests & take him to AUS, if he manages an average of say 35 against SAF & even 38 against WI. He will be there for a role, more than his runs only.

 

[MMHS]

[MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION] Bell had a relatively poor county season and averaged 29.52 in his last 2 years of international cricket. Just drop him out for Jennings.

Finn has been dreadful recently and shouldn't be close to the team in the next year unless he does something drastic. Jake Balls just as fast and better with the ball right now.

It's about 1 year later, if Ball is doing well, he should be in squad - I kept the option open for the fastest pacer of 2017 season. I took Finn for that extra bit he is capable of - Ashes were hardly won by players, based on their last County season; rather it's the highest ceiling of a player - don't think Jack Ball at his best can do much harm to Aussies, but Finn has the ceiling to match Harmison at his prime; that's what can trouble AUS at home. I thought Finn bowled exceptionally against PAK in 3rd Test - that's what you need in Test, line length staff can make you statically look good in County. Either way don't see much hope for ENG, but a 100% Finn is far better than anyone in ENG for an away Ashes tour - ECB has to take a chance with Finn.

 

[HitWicket]

It's about 1 year later, if Ball is doing well, he should be in squad - I kept the option open for the fastest pacer of 2017 season. I took Finn for that extra bit he is capable of - Ashes were hardly won by players, based on their last County season; rather it's the highest ceiling of a player - don't think Jack Ball at his best can do much harm to Aussies, but Finn has the ceiling to match Harmison at his prime; that's what can trouble AUS at home. I thought Finn bowled exceptionally against PAK in 3rd Test - that's what you need in Test, line length staff can make you statically look good in County. Either way don't see much hope for ENG, but a 100% Finn is far better than anyone in ENG for an away Ashes tour - ECB has to take a chance with Finn.

Given Bell could still only average 33 in the county championship this season I doubt he's going to be averaging those figures against Australia and South Africa.

I think Finn has just totally lost it with the constant modifications to his bowling action.

I predict a top 8 of :

Cook
Hameed
Jennings
Root
Bairstow
Stokes
Buttler
Ali

 

[Hasan123]

AUS will do much better, even with bat. First, they are coming after 3 Tests against PAK, second they are not spoiled by bits & pieces syndrome for longer version & third is, they do have few good players. On the wickets last 2 Tests were played, I do expect them to pile up 750+ in 2 innings combined, which should have saved the Test. Last time, when they lost 4-0, wickets were much more spin friendly than the Poms got this time. In fact, if IND keeps same type of track, at least once Strac will get 200+ to defend, where he'll go flat-out for 150KM. Besides, AUS has better spin attack in Lyon & the lefti guy & Josh will be handy anywhere with new ball.

I would have picked Bailey for Test Series & play him at 4.

Lol have you seen Baileys current stance/technique?

 

[MMHS]

Lol have you seen Baileys current stance/technique?

Didn't see, but heard that he had a funny stance with hip pointing towards bowlers (may be exaggeration), but, I probably visualize that he was batting with a cross leg stance & left-feet way ahead of right feet. In ODI/T20, sometimes players do stand in unconventional way to disturb the bowling rhythm. Uncommon, but not unique - Javed sometimes used to stand against spinners with parallel feet, almost chest on to bowler, which helped him to slog over mid-wicket. Bailey is an Aussie, groomed on bouncier wickets - he probably was encouraging bowlers to bowl full on sticks so that he can flick through on side; or if they bowl it short, he'll thump/pull it either side on back-foot. That stance will restrict his front-foot driving - a shot that he doesn't play much.

He is a decent player of spin, can use his feet to attack them & he is a right-hander against Ashwin - I'll pick him over Khwaja, Madison or even the opener kid, they'll be like fish on burning sand.

 

[Swaraj!!]

My thoughts on the English Squad (have already noted these in other threads):

Cook: I think he is thinking a bit too much when batting. I know he is famously bullheaded, but letting go of captaincy is really the best thing for him personally.

Hameed: He really looked good, and his dismissals were more due to the situations he was in than to anything he did wrong. He is a real find and should start with cook.

Jennings: Although he did get runs, I am still reserving judgment on him. His dismissals were really woeful and point to gaps in his mental/technique. He did have an advantage of his massive reach on Indian tracks which can be valuable. But I would like to see more of him to know whether there is any substance behind the hype he has garnered here in India.

Root: There is no doubting his class. On the negative side, he looked like a bit of Boyzone in this series. Lots of great looking stuff but little substance and lesser impact. Nothing to remember for the ages. Very rare that somebody scores 400+ and still has no impact on the series. He really has to learn not to let teams get back up after wrestling them to the ground. Pretty much gave away most of his wickets trying to look for runs even when the situation didn't ask for it. I don't know if the No-3 or 4 point has any substance though. He is getting starts and crossing 50's. So, I don't think it matters if he bats at 3 or 4. The key thing for me is that he needs a proper 3/4 at the other end to keep him calm and focused.

Moeen: Already said it. He is not a number 4. He should be No 6 at the maximum. And England need to stop thinking of him as their spinner.

Bairstow: I think he was the best batsman in terms of game play and temperament (other than the last innings) on view from the English side. Still a "force the game on" kind of player, so is correctly placed at No 5.

Butler: I don't think anybody had major expectations out of him. He either seems to score at knots or get stalled. The best thing he could have done to improve his chances was to get a few not outs, which he did. Though, since the rest of falling like nine pins in no time at all, this may not be quite as valuable a stat as it potentially could be. He has the talent but doesn't look like a test player to me.

Woakes: He looked really good in Rajkot but fell off afterwards. I have really liked what I saw of him before. And I think he will continue to be a big part of England's squad.

Rashid: It is clear that he needs a full-time coach. The drop in accuracy without Saqi was alarming. On the other hand, if he can utilize the time correctly before the ashes, he could be invaluable against the aussies and south Africans. It has to be remembered that only wrist spinners have managed any success whatsoever in Oz-land and he does get turn. Only if he could get that consistency of landing the ball correctly .....

Ball: Looks similar bowler to Woakes with weaker batting. So, his negative is that he doesn't bring anything new to the table.

Anderson: I think he is spent. Still has his guiles but now needs much more of assistance from conditions than he used to. With his fitness concerns, I would be watching out for how long he does continue. He has been a joy to watch over the years and I certainly don't buy that he worked in green pitches only. He has been a complete all-conditions bowler for a long time. But now, that seems to be changing a bit.

Dawson: Yet another batsman who can bowl. I doubt we will see much more of him in the future.

Ansari: I don't think he has done enough to be getting more chances in this squad.

Stokes: Real contender to the all-rounder's tag. The reason he was failing in India was because he was over-committing to Ashwin. Something for him to work for. I think Moeen and Stokes should be at 6 and 7 or vice versa.

Broad: To me, he looked the best of the English seamers easily.

In summary, England need to find a No-4 (or 3, if Root moves down) ASAP. They are really missing that. Secondly, they have to invest in Rashid actively. The bowling attack should be Broad, Woakes, Wood, Rashid, supported by Stokes and Moeen. The team for ALL conditions should be:

1. Cook
2. Hameed
3. Root
4. <<New Guy>>
5. Bairstow
6. Moeen
7. Stokes
8. Woakes
9. Rashid
10. Broad
11. Wood

In addition, they should be looking to get Saqi a long term contract.

As far as captaincy, I really don't know if Root can do it or if he wants to do it. But Cook should step down. Thing is, even if he wins the next few matches, it is what you bring to the team as a captain when the stakes are down that matters. And he hasn't looked capable of raising his team's morale at all. Isn't much of a poker player either. His dejections look very clear and evident and provide a fillip to the opposition.

 

[hur rizvi]

Rashid and Moeen are just not good enough

 

[hadi123]

What should be England's test squad for the Pakistan series?