Ethnic cleansing and the modern world

[Cpt. Rishwat]

We have seen Donald Trump openly backing the final replacement of the Palestinian population and that has it's own thread for those who want to discuss it.

But when you take into account what happened in Serbia, also what happened in Myanmar, would it be fair to say that ethnic cleansing has been legitimised...as long as the population is Muslim? Is it justified, and could it be done humanely is the follow up question?

 

[Rajdeep]

One of the biggest ethnic cleansing is Kashmiri Pandits from the valley by Islamists. Also, the subsequent reduction of Hindu population in pakistan, Afghanistan and Bangladesh is worth mentioning.

So the term used in OP 'as long as the population is muslim' is a victim card for which no one should fall for.

Rajdeep.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Very good spot @Cpt. Rishwat and then we see some people victim blaming and bashing Muslims. Awful double standards. It's just like Boston massacre bluff for some people sometimes 5 and 50 people killing gets highlighted so much ( which still needs to be condemned) while on the other end pogrom of people in lacs and thousands doesn't even bother them at all.

Insane people and insane world tragically

 

[RexRex]

I'm not sure what the point of this thread is. Are you saying Muslims worldwide are uniquely being targeted with ethnic cleansing .. by some shadowy global entity ?

 

[sweep_shot]

Indeed.

There is a war on Islam.

But, we have to remember Allah (SWT) is in complete control at the end of the day. This world is a testing ground.

I think we can ponder upon this verse from Al-Quran: "We will certainly test you with a touch of fear and famine and loss of property, life, and crops. Give good news to those who patiently endure—"

Surah Al-Baqarah - 155 - Quran.com

We will certainly test you with a touch of fear and famine and loss of property, life, and crops. Give good news to those who patiently endure—

quran.com

 

[HalBass9]

As Amer Zahr said:

"Every Jew from anywhere in the world is from no where but Palestine.

Every Palestinian from Palestine is from everywhere except Palestine."

This argument is almost exclusively presented by Indians on this forum, as they seem to be the only ones making it here.

 

[HalBass9]

One of the biggest ethnic cleansing is Kashmiri Pandits from the valley by Islamists. Also, the subsequent reduction of Hindu population in pakistan, Afghanistan and Bangladesh is worth mentioning.

So the term used in OP 'as long as the population is muslim' is a victim card for which no one should fall for.

Rajdeep.

Indian Occupied Kashmir has been under the control of the Indian Army, predominantly composed of Hindus and Sikhs, since around 1947.

 

[Stewie]

I'm not sure what the point of this thread is. Are you saying Muslims worldwide are uniquely being targeted with ethnic cleansing .. by some shadowy global entity ?

If you follow the trend, you would be inclined to believe so. The OP did not mention the worst case of ethnic cleansing that happened in Bosnia in the 90s. Muslim men and boys were slaughtered feet away from UN soldiers watching and not doing anything about it. I know man has killed over religion for centuries. But in the modern world, where we have UN and laws and charter and this and that, in the last 70 years (if you research this) you will find that its been mostly Muslims who have lost their lives. This may also be political but it does not take away the fact they were mostly of Muslim faith. Makes you wonder why this happens. A lot of it is due to the dictators sitting on Muslim lands as well. Assad, Qaddafi, Hussein, etc, who have not really helped the cause of their own people.

It is probably the biggest tragedy in modern day that nobody is actually keeping score of the innocent lives lost in the so called war on terror. In order to kill one terrorist, tens and hundreds of people have been killed and their deaths justified as collateral damage. In the west, there is one incident where 4/5 people die in such cases and the media makes it out to be the biggest tragedy of the year (and rightly so) but nobody talks about innocent women, children and older people being killed in Afghanistan, Iraq, Yemen, Syria, etc.

 

[Varun]

If you follow the trend, you would be inclined to believe so. The OP did not mention the worst case of ethnic cleansing that happened in Bosnia in the 90s. Muslim men and boys were slaughtered feet away from UN soldiers watching and not doing anything about it. I know man has killed over religion for centuries. But in the modern world, where we have UN and laws and charter and this and that, in the last 70 years (if you research this) you will find that its been mostly Muslims who have lost their lives. This may also be political but it does not take away the fact they were mostly of Muslim faith. Makes you wonder why this happens. A lot of it is due to the dictators sitting on Muslim lands as well. Assad, Qaddafi, Hussein, etc, who have not really helped the cause of their own people.

So net net, the Muslim nations don't cultivate organic leadership?

 

[Stewie]

So net net, the Muslim nations don't cultivate organic leadership?

Muslim nations are very diverse and spread out around the world. Some of them do and some of them have fallen victim to external interference. I think its hard to deny that there has been a world order in place in the post colonial world and some Muslim states have had puppet governments in place so the west can continue to harvest their resources. If you look at it people like Qaddhafi, Hussein, etc were all blue eyes boys of western governments -- till they weren't. The Saud family still is because they continue to play the field. Which is why there is no Arab spring in KSA.

 

[Farhan The Man]

Muslim nations are very diverse and spread out around the world. Some of them do and some of them have fallen victim to external interference. I think its hard to deny that there has been a world order in place in the post colonial world and some Muslim states have had puppet governments in place so the west can continue to harvest their resources. If you look at it people like Qaddhafi, Hussein, etc were all blue eyes boys of western governments -- till they weren't. The Saud family still is because they continue to play the field. Which is why there is no Arab spring in KSA.

You forgot zia-ul-haq.

The homegrown amreekan "muslim" puppet. The one who also killed palestinians in thousands.

No pakistani batted an eyelid then. Why bother now.

 

[HalBass9]

You forgot zia-ul-haq.

The homegrown amreekan "muslim" puppet. The one who also killed palestinians in thousands.

No pakistanis batted an eyelid then. Why bother now.

It seems like most people here have leveled up from the last generation. You should totally consider upgrading too.

 

[JaDed]

Muslim nations are very diverse and spread out around the world. Some of them do and some of them have fallen victim to external interference. I think its hard to deny that there has been a world order in place in the post colonial world and some Muslim states have had puppet governments in place so the west can continue to harvest their resources. If you look at it people like Qaddhafi, Hussein, etc were all blue eyes boys of western governments -- till they weren't. The Saud family still is because they continue to play the field. Which is why there is no Arab spring in KSA.

Qaddafi was never in their good books, he took down Senussi monarchy which was western backed including sending Italians back and the Western Military bases.
Agree on the others.

 

[HalBass9]

The pungent hypocrisy of zia and his henchman is still alive.

Evident with your contradictory words and actions.

pakistanis with western passports regressed further than ones with pakistani passport.

Oh, brilliant logic. So, Pakistanis with foreign passports should stay silent, and European Americans shouldn’t speak for Palestine because wait for it they pay taxes and had ancestors who owned slaves. Absolutely flawless reasoning.

You’re really outdoing yourself today, please, keep these intellectual gems coming. The world needs more of this next level wisdom.

 

[Rajdeep]

Oh, brilliant logic. So, Pakistanis with foreign passports should stay silent, and European Americans shouldn’t speak for Palestine because wait for it they pay taxes and had ancestors who owned slaves. Absolutely flawless reasoning.

You’re really outdoing yourself today, please, keep these intellectual gems coming. The world needs more of this next level wisdom.

I don't think so. When Pakistanis with foreign passport speaks, world listens.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

One of the biggest ethnic cleansing is Kashmiri Pandits from the valley by Islamists. Also, the subsequent reduction of Hindu population in pakistan, Afghanistan and Bangladesh is worth mentioning.

So the term used in OP 'as long as the population is muslim' is a victim card for which no one should fall for.

Rajdeep.

I knew this whataboutism was coming, that is why I actually put in the title "modern era".

If you want to discuss the alleged ethnic cleansing of pandits, maybe start a new thread and put your evidence there.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I'm not sure what the point of this thread is. Are you saying Muslims worldwide are uniquely being targeted with ethnic cleansing .. by some shadowy global entity ?

No I didn't say that anywhere in the thread. If I did you can quote me though and I will respond duly.

 

[HalBass9]

I don't think so. When Pakistanis with foreign passport speaks, world listens.

Absolutely. People should just stop speaking because, obviously, if the world power committing genocide isn’t listening, silence is the only logical solution. Brilliant strategy.

By that logic, I suppose the Pope and the Dalai Lama should also zip it and abandon their calls for ending the genocide, because, clearly, some Hindutva keyboard warrior from India has decreed that the world isn’t listening, or that someone’s tax dollars are involved. Truly, an intellectual masterpiece, please, bless us with more of this next level wisdom.

 

[JaDed]

I knew this whataboutism was coming, that is why I actually put in the title "modern era".

Cap the thread context itself is Whataboutism.

Lets put it this way:
Most outrage for in order religion:
1. Jews
2. Christians
3. Muslims
4.Buddhists
5. Hindus/Sikhs

— Jains no one cares.

In some ways Abrahamic religions win overall.

 

[Rajdeep]

I knew this whataboutism was coming, that is why I actually put in the title "modern era".

If you want to discuss the alleged ethnic cleansing of pandits, maybe start a new thread and put your evidence there.

Modern is subjective. If you have opened a generic thread about ethnic cleansing have guts to listen to everyones perspective. If your aim is to only discuss ethnic cleansing of muslims, update the thread title and I will shut up.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Cap the thread context itself is Whataboutism.

Lets put it this way:
Most outrage for in order religion:
1. Jews
2. Christians
3. Muslims
4.Buddhists
5. Hindus/Sikhs

— Jains no one cares.

In some ways Abrahamic religions win overall.

No idea what that means. Sorry.

 

[Rajdeep]

Absolutely. People should just stop speaking because, obviously, if the world power committing genocide isn’t listening, silence is the only logical solution. Brilliant strategy.

By that logic, I suppose the Pope and the Dalai Lama should also zip it and abandon their calls for ending the genocide, because, clearly, some Hindutva keyboard warrior from India has decreed that the world isn’t listening, or that someone’s tax dollars are involved. Truly, an intellectual masterpiece, please, bless us with more of this next level wisdom.

You speak brother....no need to stay silent. Any issues let me know.

World need more noble people like Dalai Lama, Pope and Pakistanis (holding foreign passport).

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Modern is subjective. If you have opened a generic thread about ethnic cleansing have guts to listen to everyones perspective. If your aim is to only discuss ethnic cleansing of muslims, update the thread title and I will shut up.

Modern just meant in the last generation or so where it is in living peoples memory, and where it is still ongoing in many cases. That is what makes it relevant. Otherwise the thread will end up all over the place with everyone discussing what happened to the Greeks or the Thracians.

But if eskimos or Aborigines are currently getting culled somwhere, by all means include them.

 

[Rajdeep]

Modern just meant in the last generation or so where it is in living peoples memory, and where it is still ongoing in many cases. That is what makes it relevant. Otherwise the thread will end up all over the place with everyone discussing what happened to the Greeks or the Thracians.

But if eskimos or Aborigines are currently getting culled somwhere, by all means include them.

Translation - I don't want to discuss about Kashmiri Pandits exodus as that will not serve the propaganda.

Kaptaan Sahab

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Translation - I don't want to discuss about Kashmiri Pandits exodus as that will not serve the propaganda.

Kaptaan Sahab

I don't mind discussing it, but I would have thought if it has legs it is worth it's own thread. Otherwise would you like to discuss the ethnic cleansing of native Indians in America in this thread as well?

 

[HalBass9]

You speak brother....no need to stay silent. Any issues let me know.

World need more noble people like Dalai Lama, Pope and Pakistanis (holding foreign passport).

Let you know?

No! You should openly speak as the world and including yourself are quite content with not listening to those who are speaking against the genocide.

No need to be afraid, come out with full support.

 

[Rajdeep]

Let you know?

No! You should openly speak as the world and including yourself are quite content with not listening to those who are speaking against the genocide.

No need to be afraid, come out with full support.

Women under Taliban rule is a part of that voice?

Just asking because my limited guess is Dalai Lama and Pope is not too keen on caging women in 21st century.

 

[ElRaja]

post ww2 huge numbers of germans were ehtnically expelled or cleansed out of the baltic coast, Silesia, and the sudetenland. if you lose a war you will have to pay the price in land, and sometimes that results in ethnic cleansing by the victors. yes the nazis were evil, but did their loss justify expulsion of ethnic germans from their homelands for centuries? politically, yes, cos a greater germany would always dominate europe completely, morally, obviously not. such things have a lot more to do with politics than with religion

 

[Stewie]

You forgot zia-ul-haq.

The homegrown amreekan "muslim" puppet. The one who also killed palestinians in thousands.

No pakistani batted an eyelid then. Why bother now.

Don't think anybody has forgotten the American puppets in charge of Pakistan. More so today. None of the atrocities of these puppets is lost on anyone. They are still killing their own people in Pakistan even today.

 

[Stewie]

Qaddafi was never in their good books, he took down Senussi monarchy which was western backed including sending Italians back and the Western Military bases.
Agree on the others.

Not exactly correct. He was the blue eyed boy of the US for a while till he outlived his usefulness. You can Google and easily find out documents on how he was an ally and a "friend" for a bit.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

post ww2 huge numbers of germans were ehtnically expelled or cleansed out of the baltic coast, Silesia, and the sudetenland. if you lose a war you will have to pay the price in land, and sometimes that results in ethnic cleansing by the victors. yes the nazis were evil, but did their loss justify expulsion of ethnic germans from their homelands for centuries? politically, yes, cos a greater germany would always dominate europe completely, morally, obviously not. such things have a lot more to do with politics than with religion

I think WWII was an era where you might have expected ethnic cleansing, bearing in mind in large parts of the world people were still segregated by race because they were considered inferior. It is quite jarring to come to the realisation that more or less anything can be justified even today though if you put the right spin on it.

 

[sweep_shot]

Every time we try to discuss Palestine, some of these Indian posters bring in stuff which happened hundreds of years ago. Completely derail the topic.

If you want to discuss any specific event from the past, why not make a thread about it instead of derailing the Palestine thread?

I generally don't discuss Palestine issues with Indians because of this reason.

 

[Markhor]

post ww2 huge numbers of germans were ehtnically expelled or cleansed out of the baltic coast, Silesia, and the sudetenland. if you lose a war you will have to pay the price in land, and sometimes that results in ethnic cleansing by the victors. yes the nazis were evil, but did their loss justify expulsion of ethnic germans from their homelands for centuries? politically, yes, cos a greater germany would always dominate europe completely, morally, obviously not. such things have a lot more to do with politics than with religion

I don't like to say it but there's an argument that the mass relocation of German minorities post-WW2 ensured the creation of more stable and durable European borders with generally homogenous populations. We haven't seen another continental wide war since.

Maintaining harmony in multi-ethnic and multi-religious populations is incredibly difficult and probably the biggest challenge facing democracies today.

Not to say I support Trump's ridiculous proposal but there's two entities with totally contradictory national and religious identities, and with seemingly no appetite to restart the peace process then I fear we're left with a climactic armed confrontation in which the Palestinians are inevitably going to fare off worse.

 

[HalBass9]

Women under Taliban rule is a part of that voice?

Just asking because my limited guess is Dalai Lama and Pope is not too keen on caging women in 21st century.

Not every conversation needs to pivot to Hindutva or deflect with "what about Pakistan." Let me clarify, I speak only for myself, and I expect others to do the same.

If you believe I’ve ever endorsed the Taliban’s oppression of women, feel free to cite specific evidence, I’ll wait.

Rather than indirect remarks about 'foreign Pakistanis' or deflecting to topics like the Taliban, perhaps some should candidly address the underlying sentiment, that certain individuals in India tacitly approve of the ongoing violence and displacement in Palestine but avoid stating it outright. If there’s genuine pride in Western validation of India’s stance, why not openly articulate support for such actions instead of masking it behind deflection?

The question remains, Why not voice these views transparently, rather than cloaking them in rhetorical diversions?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Not every conversation needs to pivot to Hindutva or deflect with "what about Pakistan." Let me clarify, I speak only for myself, and I expect others to do the same.

If you believe I’ve ever endorsed the Taliban’s oppression of women, feel free to cite specific evidence, I’ll wait.

Rather than indirect remarks about 'foreign Pakistanis' or deflecting to topics like the Taliban, perhaps some should candidly address the underlying sentiment, that certain individuals in India tacitly approve of the ongoing violence and displacement in Palestine but avoid stating it outright. If there’s genuine pride in Western validation of India’s stance, why not openly articulate support for such actions instead of masking it behind deflection?

The question remains, Why not voice these views transparently, rather than cloaking them in rhetorical diversions?

Yes. I even said in the opening thread that if you believe ethnic cleansing is justified in modern times - and many on here seem to support it - then is there a way it could be carried out humanely? Obviously some posters who support it aren't prepared to say it openly. Which suggests they realise it isn't really justified, hence they resort to whataboutery from events half a century ago, or even further back.

 

[Local.Dada]

Not every conversation needs to pivot to Hindutva

Not every conversation needs to pivot to Hindutva when I have no clue what have to say as I don’t get the usual cold sweats and triggers - fixed it for you

 

[ElRaja]

I think WWII was an era where you might have expected ethnic cleansing, bearing in mind in large parts of the world people were still segregated by race because they were considered inferior. It is quite jarring to come to the realisation that more or less anything can be justified even today though if you put the right spin on it.

i think my point was slightly lost, given the history, ehtnic cleansing is not as out of place in the context of ww2, however my point was that whilst we hear about the ethnic cleansing of the allies of the victors, and the enemies of the nazis, we hardly ever hear of the ethnic cleansing or relocation of the ethnic germans, the losers in the war. to go to your OP, Muslims might appear to be targets of ethnic cleansing, but in your own OP, the ethnic cleansing of the bosniaks at the hands of serbs is well documented and universally condemned, however that is not the case in Myanmar or gaza, cos they are on the other side politically speaking.

I don't like to say it but there's an argument that the mass relocation of German minorities post-WW2 ensured the creation of more stable and durable European borders with generally homogenous populations. We haven't seen another continental wide war since.

Maintaining harmony in multi-ethnic and multi-religious populations is incredibly difficult and probably the biggest challenge facing democracies today.

Not to say I support Trump's ridiculous proposal but there's two entities with totally contradictory national and religious identities, and with seemingly no appetite to restart the peace process then I fear we're left with a climactic armed confrontation in which the Palestinians are inevitably going to fare off worse.

i agree, partially, however given austria, perhaps the most political mischievous of all the pre ww2 entities in terms of instigating or agitating for wars and spreading "german" imperialism on the continent still exists today, with little appetite for war. Could a baltic german speaking nation exist similarly? probably, but at that time i dont think any European wanted to give germans any more than the absolute minimum in terms of land or power.

 

[HalBass9]

Not every conversation needs to pivot to Hindutva when I have no clue what have to say as I don’t get the usual cold sweats and triggers - fixed it for you

You again? Do not fix anything, If I ever need anything fixed then you'd be the last person.

Now back to the topic instead of displaying your hurt feelings because other Hindutavas were called out for repeating and supporting the narrative of that the genocide of the Palestine is necessary because the chosen people from Poland were promised the land by their god.

Looks like you missed the clue - Supporting regime that commit genocide in 21st century is not a good look.

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

We have seen Donald Trump openly backing the final replacement of the Palestinian population and that has it's own thread for those who want to discuss it.

But when you take into account what happened in Serbia, also what happened in Myanmar, would it be fair to say that ethnic cleansing has been legitimised...as long as the population is Muslim? Is it justified, and could it be done humanely is the follow up question?

Ethnic cleansing has been legitimized and infact deified by the Champions of Abrahamic religions world over for thousands of years. We can say that it was just a brief pause in 50-75 years in the 20th century but world has always seen extreme ethnic wipe out happening here and there. UN Human Rights declaration is the only document that took a stance on this but the Muslim world went its own route because all humans are not created equal.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

i think my point was slightly lost, given the history, ehtnic cleansing is not as out of place in the context of ww2, however my point was that whilst we hear about the ethnic cleansing of the allies of the victors, and the enemies of the nazis, we hardly ever hear of the ethnic cleansing or relocation of the ethnic germans, the losers in the war. to go to your OP, Muslims might appear to be targets of ethnic cleansing, but in your own OP, the ethnic cleansing of the bosniaks at the hands of serbs is well documented and universally condemned, however that is not the case in Myanmar or gaza, cos they are on the other side politically speaking.



i agree, partially, however given austria, perhaps the most political mischievous of all the pre ww2 entities in terms of instigating or agitating for wars and spreading "german" imperialism on the continent still exists today, with little appetite for war. Could a baltic german speaking nation exist similarly? probably, but at that time i dont think any European wanted to give germans any more than the absolute minimum in terms of land or power.

I have never even heard of ethnic cleansing of Germans from Silesia, and the Sudetenland, but then I never heard of Greater Germany for that matter. I guess this underlines your point that we don't hear from the losing side, or at least the side that goes against our own interests.

This does also show how quickly attitudes can change, and that ethnic cleansing is being proposed today as a viable option is proof of it. Although of course it is not being called ethnic cleansing, it is being dressed up as a temporary holiday while homes get rebuilt awaiting a return which will never happen.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Ethnic cleansing has been legitimized and infact deified by the Champions of Abrahamic religions world over for thousands of years. We can say that it was just a brief pause in 50-75 years in the 20th century but world has always seen extreme ethnic wipe out happening here and there. UN Human Rights declaration is the only document that took a stance on this but the Muslim world went its own route because all humans are not created equal.

This is just a generic waffle not really supported by any specifics.

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

This is just a generic waffle not really supported by any specifics.

Specific facts of history will trigger the fragile sensitivities of majority here.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Specific facts of history will trigger the fragile sensitivities of majority here.

More waffle.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Three of the biggest ethnic cleansing actions that have occured in human history is by Ashoka ( Hindu) and Hitler ( adopted Hindu symbolism), and the recent genocide of Palestinians ( championed by extremist Hindus).

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Translation - I don't want to discuss about Kashmiri Pandits exodus as that will not serve the propaganda.

Kaptaan Sahab

60 Kashmiri bandits died in total brother have some sense before you make these remarks.

 

[Rajdeep]

Three of the biggest ethnic cleansing actions that have occured in human history is by Ashoka ( Hindu) and Hitler ( adopted Hindu symbolism), and the recent genocide of Palestinians ( championed by extremist Hindus).

If someone living under the rock for centuries suddenly wakes up and read some of the posts here would tend to think the entire world problems is due to Hindus. Then when they walk in the street, smell some coffee and get to know the ground reality...their reaction will be like

 

[sweep_shot]

Three of the biggest ethnic cleansing actions that have occured in human history is by Ashoka ( Hindu) and Hitler ( adopted Hindu symbolism), and the recent genocide of Palestinians ( championed by extremist Hindus).

Good point.

I once mentioned Ashoka's atrocities in one thread. One Indian poster started to make excuses for Ashoka.

These same people cry about Mughals but keep quiet about a tyrant like Ashoka.

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

Good point.

I once mentioned Ashoka's atrocities in one thread. One Indian poster started to make excuses for Ashoka.

These same people cry about Mughals but keep quiet about a tyrant like Ashoka.

Randomly assuming the whole conversation, which Indian here has ever defended the carnage carried out by Ashoka?
History is taken in as a whole and not selectively ignore facts, like the marital practices of the past just to preserve one's fragile religious belief system.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Guys please stick to the thread topic

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Three of the biggest ethnic cleansing actions that have occured in human history is by Ashoka ( Hindu) and Hitler ( adopted Hindu symbolism), and the recent genocide of Palestinians ( championed by extremist Hindus).

Ashoka was from ancient history, I think it is fair to say the idea is that modern humanity would not accept the same standards as over 1000 years ago when ethnic cleansing might have been attributed to more primitive mindsets.

Although you could argue that the fact we are seeing it happen regularly in our own generation, right before our eyes, suggests that we might be less civilised than we pretend.