hamzie
First Class Captain
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2010
- Runs
- 4,998
http://submission.org/Women_Men_in_your_Care.html
I think this greatly explains the issue of sex slaves
I think this greatly explains the issue of sex slaves
-
Contact the PP Team
Explanation for why the Qur'an is a literary miracle - Hamza Tzortzis
- Thread starter shaykh
- Start date
Nostalgic
T20I Debutant
- Joined
- Feb 16, 2009
- Runs
- 8,000
- Post of the Week
- 2
Yes, because somewhere there is an auntie looking for action who is turned on by a Salafi with an exotic name.
dildilpak
Local Club Captain
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2015
- Runs
- 2,469
Nostalgic
T20I Debutant
- Joined
- Feb 16, 2009
- Runs
- 8,000
- Post of the Week
- 2
Hahaha. Kinky aunt
They're the best.
Watsupdoc
Test Star
- Joined
- Sep 8, 2010
- Runs
- 36,512
I want to make it clear, that I am not engaging in any debate.
Although, honestly most of your arguments in this regard are very flimsy. You are just clutching at straws (i.e. your whole middle nation argument).
You need to understand that Quran was an oral tradition and it didn't come down written. So, yes placement of words, the words used, switching of tenses, they are all devices. But the precision with, which the Quran uses them is mind-boggling, especially given that it was a oral traditional and once you said something it is out there, you can't change it, there is no 'edit' option.
The argument that Quran doesn't have a structure is complete Bogus, again Nouman Ali Khan has done a series on it, but that is not the subject at hand.
Also, maybe you missed the palindrome, he was talking about. But that is one example that completely personally boggles my mind.
The palindrome makes something godly?...the fact that it exists as a rhetorical device means people do it...
Tbf the ones clutching at straws are the likes of Nouman and yourself...the middle example is rubbish in the first place...
But that aside...one can mention this oral tradition thing as much as they want...thats how things were delivered back then...i am impressed at how well battle rappers can prepare 30 minutes of material without forgetting anything...also how they can come up with rebuttals yet not let that interfere with their flow...
Muhammad took 23 years to come up with this stuff...he had time to structure and memorise what he would say...people discuss this as if he freestyled this poetry...
You haven't been able to come close and neither has Nouman to explaining why doing something well...or forming beautiful poetry...as stated you dropped the palindrome example yourself...does producing a palindrome make one Godly?...
This is hilarious...
His story isn't that far fetched tbh...his Facebook page is interesting...a lot of people expressing their support for him...and a lot calling him a hypocrite...
I guess the truth is between him and his creator...
Romali_rotti
Senior ODI Player
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2005
- Runs
- 21,326
Bible talks about miracles also which came before the Quran. But lol @ Hamza he is a funny guy, his debate with Lawrence Kraus was out of this planet, I have yet to see anyone make a fool out of himself like Hamza did that day...
Tbf Krauss isn't good at debate...he has knowledge of physics...and Hamza was stupid to actually debate Krauss on Krauss's area of expertise...but Krauss knows very little about Islam...isn't the best of orators nor has he much knowledge on philosophy...
You will never see any of these Islamic speakers accept a debate with someone who actually has knowledge of Islam...an apostate fluent in Arabic language challenged Tzortzis to a debate and Hamza turned him down...instead Hamza chose the guy who had no knowledge of Islam and debated him...in boxing we would call that a cherry pick...
Gabbar Singh
Test Debutant
- Joined
- Nov 11, 2007
- Runs
- 15,550
Logical
Local Club Star
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2007
- Runs
- 1,792
Islamic preachers have had a history of turning out to be hypocritical. However, in this case he might just be looking for another wife which is allowed in this "perfect" religion.
KeyboardWarrior
Tape Ball Star
- Joined
- Apr 30, 2013
- Runs
- 987
Bro,
God dosnt like "Space" in the law of nature. someone have to fill that Space.
Its Law of the God. he sent people with different Intellect-Intelligence in every age.
In simple words, Better thn the Previous Ones.
for example:
In cricket no one ever thought about that someone will come close to Bradman.
but people witnessed Tendulkar. who knows someone will take over all the records of both Tendulkar and Bradman in next decade.
It may look like Impossible for this era.
but no one knows, except God.
Similarly every Part of life ha changed, wether its Art,Craft, Culture,Music,Science,Law,literature, etc etc everything is still in evolving stages.
Nothing is in static mood.
when i say evolving it doesnt mean about Darwins theory of Monkey.(its different topic)
Human mind evolves with every ages, thats why God said he sent books for every ages, according to thre understanding of that time.
thre were total 4 books were sent to the people of every ages.
But God didnt take the responsibility of others except Quran.
Your challenge about shakespare work dosnt hold the ground becoz the shakespare wasnt the only one who works for the Writing.
many people says milton was the better writer thn Shakespear.
If you still says shakespare is the only one who takes the Writing concept to a whole new level.
thn that is wrong. he wasnt the only one. and he wont be the only one.
As i said, God doesnt like space. so you mean after shakespare death no one changes the concept of Writing till this date ?
thn do check about Jhon Milton work. Milton have more or less same followers thn shakespear.
So, In your case anyone can deabte about Shakespear vs Milton. neck to neck.
Now, about The Quran, the Same God have said that 1430 years ago, the words of Quran cannot be changed becoz God takes himself the responsibility to safe Quran from manipulation or fabrication.
tell me ONE Book which ha survived in pure form till this date ?
No other book in this world have the pure form after so many centuries.
nothing is changed, not a single sentence even not a single word.
what others have to debate about Quran thn ?
So, Quran vs ...... ?
and God Knows Best.
Indiafan
Senior T20I Player
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2006
- Runs
- 19,664
- Post of the Week
- 8
1)You say God doesn't like space, but for over 5 billion years earth was nothing but space. Human beings have been on earth only for few thousand years. So there was space for 99.99% of earth's life
2) It is really, really, really sad when an educated youth talks about "theory of monkeys" which shows that a) he doesn't even know what that theory is even about and b)he holds one of the biggest theories of human beings in disdain. This is the kind of severe harm religion can do to thinking and humanity's progress. You are already approaching this subject with a biased mind, and such a biased mind prevents education and free learning
3) Shakespeare was a genius in his own style, Milton was in his own. Which is how geniuses are. There is no competition. Both are inimitable.
4) I will believe that Quran has survived in pure form, nothing has changed, nothing can be imitated, nothing is wrong, etc, etc the day when people are allowed to question it with freedom and without fear. Forgive me for not believing these tall claims when I know that for centuries people who questioned a word, even accidentally, were killed or tortured. So of course, ONLY the good things will be accepted. For example, if there are two scholars in Pakistan today, one who makes videos like the one in this thread and says everything is a miracle and another says that no, he is finding error, who will be treated how? The former will be a hero, the later will have to leave the country or even be killed. Heck rationalists are being killed in broad daylight in Bangladesh. In such a scenario, please forgive me for not believing these tall claims or thinking that these claims have been studied with a free mind. When you have only one narrative, you will get only one result. When you go in any experiment with a biased mind, you will always get the results you wanted.
Do you think the things I am typing, I would dare say these things aloud anywhere, even in India? This is the atmosphere of fear around this topic and in such an atmosphere there cannot be any rational debate on this topic
2) It is really, really, really sad when an educated youth talks about "theory of monkeys" which shows that a) he doesn't even know what that theory is even about and b)he holds one of the biggest theories of human beings in disdain. This is the kind of severe harm religion can do to thinking and humanity's progress. You are already approaching this subject with a biased mind, and such a biased mind prevents education and free learning
3) Shakespeare was a genius in his own style, Milton was in his own. Which is how geniuses are. There is no competition. Both are inimitable.
4) I will believe that Quran has survived in pure form, nothing has changed, nothing can be imitated, nothing is wrong, etc, etc the day when people are allowed to question it with freedom and without fear. Forgive me for not believing these tall claims when I know that for centuries people who questioned a word, even accidentally, were killed or tortured. So of course, ONLY the good things will be accepted. For example, if there are two scholars in Pakistan today, one who makes videos like the one in this thread and says everything is a miracle and another says that no, he is finding error, who will be treated how? The former will be a hero, the later will have to leave the country or even be killed. Heck rationalists are being killed in broad daylight in Bangladesh. In such a scenario, please forgive me for not believing these tall claims or thinking that these claims have been studied with a free mind. When you have only one narrative, you will get only one result. When you go in any experiment with a biased mind, you will always get the results you wanted.
Do you think the things I am typing, I would dare say these things aloud anywhere, even in India? This is the atmosphere of fear around this topic and in such an atmosphere there cannot be any rational debate on this topic
Last edited:
Watsupdoc
Test Star
- Joined
- Sep 8, 2010
- Runs
- 36,512
How do you explain that someone who can't read or write, came with such an amazing palindrome. But to each his own. I find this miraculous, but you might not.
endymion248
ODI Debutant
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2012
- Runs
- 9,960
- Post of the Week
- 1
How many literary devices did Hamza manage to fit in his Ashley Maddison messages?
filthyfulltoss
Tape Ball Captain
- Joined
- Sep 29, 2014
- Runs
- 1,033
filthyfulltoss
Tape Ball Captain
- Joined
- Sep 29, 2014
- Runs
- 1,033
WHY WOULD A HACKER SIGN YOU UP FOR A SITE ??? AND THEN USE IT??? If you were trying to get laid would you go with annoying salafist preacher as your persona or Brad Pitt?
It just annoys me the difference in standards of justice towards the ordinary man and celebrities. It's even worse with these Mullahs getting away (JJ, this tortoise, etc etc) because they command a sizeable following and that gives them the right to benefit of the doubt. If life is a game of cricket, then the mullahs and the politicians are the batsmen and we're all Ishant Sharma.
It just annoys me the difference in standards of justice towards the ordinary man and celebrities. It's even worse with these Mullahs getting away (JJ, this tortoise, etc etc) because they command a sizeable following and that gives them the right to benefit of the doubt. If life is a game of cricket, then the mullahs and the politicians are the batsmen and we're all Ishant Sharma.
I have explained it already...you're looking at the society through your glasses of today...illiteracy was common back then...being unable to read or write doesn't mean your language isn't sophisticated...a lot of languages past and present have no written form but have a literary tradition...palindromes are commonplace in literature...its a device yet you are acting as though this something impossible...
Anyhow there are examples in history of people doing extraordinary things...should we worship this woman?...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen_Keller
She wrote 12 books despite being deaf and blind...that's a lot more impressive than a wealthy Arab with all his physical faculties living in an era where oral tradition was commonplace creating one piece of work in 23 years...
There are lots of examples of writers being able to produce impressive pieces of literature despite some kind of drawback...Milton completed Paradise Lost when he was blind...he had no braille to assist him...he dictated everything to his scribe...
Doing something brilliant is different to miraculous...how do you define a miracle?...
Watsupdoc
Test Star
- Joined
- Sep 8, 2010
- Runs
- 36,512
Again clutching at straws. All those blind and deaf people, I am pretty sure were not unlettered.
The prophet (pbuh) was unlettered. So, how could he come up with a palindrome such as this? He could not even write one letter.
Lol and he never wrote a letter...he never wrote a thing...his scribes wrote down his words...
You honestly seem to be confused over what being illiterate means...it means he couldn't read or write...something many Arabs didnt do during his time...it didn't mean he couldn't communicate or express himself effectively...he was a wealthy aristocratic trader...
But since you think that work can only be transmitted by writing...how do you account for works like Gilgamesh which was transmitted orally?...
shaz619
Test Star
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2010
- Runs
- 37,966
- Post of the Week
- 7
Nothing like that at all
I don't need to know Arabic to know that an ambiguous challenge that sets no clear criteria is a false challenge...
Oh, thought you did because you were questioning the KKWC for holding certain views whilst not being fluent in arabic etc. Doesn't it work both ways then? it's his word against yours as far as Quran being a Literary Miracle is concerned.
shaz619
Test Star
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2010
- Runs
- 37,966
- Post of the Week
- 7
The prophet was very intelligent no doubt; this is evident in his prowess as a battle tactician. But the crux of the Quran being a miracle isn't based on the prophet being illiterate although it is said quiet often.
Mamoon
ATG
- Joined
- Sep 3, 2012
- Runs
- 105,519
- Post of the Week
- 12
I would like to mention a miracle that is based on my personal experience - every time I open the Quran, I find something that has to do with whatever problem/issue I'm facing during that time.
These days, I like to open the Quran randomly and read any verse that comes up, and I feel like this exactly what I needed to read in light of my situation at that time.
Now I don't know if this can be classified as a miracle or not but I have certainly experienced it. It doesn't feel random at all - as if it was meant for me to read that verse at that time and is a direct message from Allah swt for me.
These days, I like to open the Quran randomly and read any verse that comes up, and I feel like this exactly what I needed to read in light of my situation at that time.
Now I don't know if this can be classified as a miracle or not but I have certainly experienced it. It doesn't feel random at all - as if it was meant for me to read that verse at that time and is a direct message from Allah swt for me.
Watsupdoc
Test Star
- Joined
- Sep 8, 2010
- Runs
- 36,512
Lol I am not saying that work can only be transmitted in writing, what I am saying is that for him to know about the palindrome, he would have had to write it down. Otherwise, how would he know that it was a palindrome?
Watsupdoc
Test Star
- Joined
- Sep 8, 2010
- Runs
- 36,512
This has happened with me a lot as well. But of course people here will argue that it's just pure luck
shaz619
Test Star
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2010
- Runs
- 37,966
- Post of the Week
- 7
This has happened with me a lot as well. But of course people here will argue that it's just pure luck
To be fair people can say the same about Music not that I intended to be a buzz kill
I do believe there are certain miracles that come from the heavens although I've not experienced one but come to think of it on a personal level my duas at times have been answered to a certain extent despite going through certain struggles I have hope that things in the future will be better.
shaz619
Test Star
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2010
- Runs
- 37,966
- Post of the Week
- 7
I think it's a Miracle in a way when Evil people triumph all the time and screw you while managing to get away with it.
So only people who can read and write know what a metaphor is?...or a palindrome?...or any sort of literary device?...
Are you suggesting that before writing nothing like this existed?...
Watsupdoc
Test Star
- Joined
- Sep 8, 2010
- Runs
- 36,512
To be fair people can say the same about Music not that I intended to be a buzz kill
Well I am sure that you don't switch up a random music national and you find that this is exactly what you need to read.
But yes, this opening up the Quran (with sincerity to search for guidance) and finding exactly what you needed to know relevant to your situation, might not be seen as a miracle by some.
Watsupdoc
Test Star
- Joined
- Sep 8, 2010
- Runs
- 36,512
No, but a palindrome only works in a written form.
the Great Khan
Senior Test Player
- Joined
- Feb 1, 2005
- Runs
- 27,077
- Post of the Week
- 1
that is a known fact. Check out a vid by Nouman Ali khan where he actually does the same thing when he cant think of a topic for a lecture. The QUraan is nuanced, deep and beyond anything. By the way i did this the other day. I'm still studying the nuances of the reply.
Mamoon
ATG
- Joined
- Sep 3, 2012
- Runs
- 105,519
- Post of the Week
- 12
Yes, and it is very inspiring indeed.
the Great Khan
Senior Test Player
- Joined
- Feb 1, 2005
- Runs
- 27,077
- Post of the Week
- 1
to be honest I'm still grasping what Allah swt was trying to say. Multiple things and such nuance, really enlightening. My wife did the same but she got a pretty straight forward one lol..
the Great Khan
Senior Test Player
- Joined
- Feb 1, 2005
- Runs
- 27,077
- Post of the Week
- 1
I know sometime you seem to lose heart and I can understand but always stay close to the Quraan and have faith.
Mamoon
ATG
- Joined
- Sep 3, 2012
- Runs
- 105,519
- Post of the Week
- 12
I was drawn away from religion a few years ago, but then I saw things that affirmed my belief. I know if I share them with people, they will not believe them and will say that I am making them up, but my advice to anyone is that if you ask Allah swt to help you and guide you in your weak faith, He will give you signs and indications. No doubt about it, because nothing beats personal experience.
Mamoon
ATG
- Joined
- Sep 3, 2012
- Runs
- 105,519
- Post of the Week
- 12
Yeah, every time it seems to give a different meaning, depending on how you perceive it.
Mamoon
ATG
- Joined
- Sep 3, 2012
- Runs
- 105,519
- Post of the Week
- 12
At the end of the day, you cannot prove or disprove any faith - if you believe it, you will believe and if you close your heard and mind, you will not be able to embrace it. That is why it is futile to discuss religion and ultimately it is a personal matter.
I used to engage in a lot of religious discussions but now I do not believe that it is worth it.
I used to engage in a lot of religious discussions but now I do not believe that it is worth it.
the Great Khan
Senior Test Player
- Joined
- Feb 1, 2005
- Runs
- 27,077
- Post of the Week
- 1
same here..I too drifted away then came back..
shaz619
Test Star
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2010
- Runs
- 37,966
- Post of the Week
- 7
What I meant was that when someone is listening to a song, they often can relate their situation to the lyrics. Not saying that the same can not apply when reading the Quran it surely can as you and Mamoon have said.
Something interesting which i hadn't pondered before...you can always learn something new...
The discussion over Muhammads literacy in an interesting one...
These are both Bukhari hadith...
And even on his deathbed there are hadith that speak about Muhammads writing...
There are a shedload of hadith actually which refer to the Prophet 'writing'...
These hadith are classified as Sahih...
If the Prophet was illiterate why do we presume he remained that way?...hadith would suggest he was openly reading and writing...
The discussion over Muhammads literacy in an interesting one...
These are both Bukhari hadith...
And even on his deathbed there are hadith that speak about Muhammads writing...
There are a shedload of hadith actually which refer to the Prophet 'writing'...
These hadith are classified as Sahih...
If the Prophet was illiterate why do we presume he remained that way?...hadith would suggest he was openly reading and writing...
KeyboardWarrior
Tape Ball Star
- Joined
- Apr 30, 2013
- Runs
- 987
Bro,
as I said he doesnt like space.
Earth was never Empty Space, Before humans The Jinns (i know you dont belive on spirits, so never mind) existed in this earth, and thn Animals/Jurrasic etc and so on ...
Thre were loopholes in his theory, you cant say that its as "fact of Human Evolution". many people of Science rejected his theory.
sure it helps us to understand about how things evolve.
but Human Evolution thoery is not completed yet.
Its the theory about evolution, I got it, things evolve,but it doesnt mean Human are descended of apes.
thre are other theories which says Humans are descended of dolphins and what not.
thn whos Right ?
Science is not static. Its evolving. today is Darwin's, tomorws will be someone else.
or,
as someone says in this forum that Universe comes from nothing. Becoz it was nothing before Universe.
thn why not a Human being comes from nothing.
In other words:
'Be,' and it is”.
but still people compare both with each other. Its fact.
tell me about Quran ? can someone compare it with any Book ?
Sorry, Bro. I am an open minded person. I cant talk about others.
Does the Quran object to thinking and asking questions? Is Islam against thinking and asking?
The answer is absolutely: No!
Islam was and still is the religion that never put hindrances in the face of the people of knowledge, whether they were students or scholars. Rather, Islam encourages research and investigation. The Qur'an is full of so many verses calling upon people to make up their minds and explore the universe and its beauties.
Islam never said that people should stop asking questions or avoid research. It always says that people should use their minds to realize the existence of God. People are to use the faculties given to them by Allah to think and contemplate upon the heavens and the earth, the remains of the previous nations, the creation around them and see how beautiful all creation is. This is also to realize how great are the favors of Allah and to know that He is the sole Creator of the whole universe.
and thre is also a term of Ijtihad ....
Last edited:
You cannot reason faith.
If you scrutinize religion and scriptures, all of them will fall flat on their faces. Some take criticism and some cannot and make you pay for questioning their faith and God.
The only miracle is meditation and Science. You do not need God to meditate and Science is there to explain the real world phenomenon.
I don't understand the miracles of Science we are seeing and using everyday. If Science was a religion, then Scientists are Gods and nothing can beat them. Me discussing with other random people on internet and exchanging ideas and views is a miracle. Us flying from one continent to other is a miracle.
If there was an airplane back in medieval times, the guy flying it would have been a God.
If you scrutinize religion and scriptures, all of them will fall flat on their faces. Some take criticism and some cannot and make you pay for questioning their faith and God.
The only miracle is meditation and Science. You do not need God to meditate and Science is there to explain the real world phenomenon.
I don't understand the miracles of Science we are seeing and using everyday. If Science was a religion, then Scientists are Gods and nothing can beat them. Me discussing with other random people on internet and exchanging ideas and views is a miracle. Us flying from one continent to other is a miracle.
If there was an airplane back in medieval times, the guy flying it would have been a God.
Similar threads
