Faf du Plessis' captaincy has been exposed

[Leo23]

as usual it took a couple of games for people to label him as the "best captain" in the world but looks like his captaincy has been exposed as soon as he started to lose tosses

a highly overrated captain and a mediocre batsman

quite a poor cricketer overall and the fact that he is a senior in this sa team shows how much they are declining

he would have been near the team when they were at their peak.

 

[The Googly]

Saffers have been very disappointing. This England side was stronger last year v Pakistan as they had Woakes. It highlights how well Pakistan played last year. That was a fantastic series.

This series has been boring and one side. Even the test Saffers won was one sided.

I think the future of Saffers is uncertain and the selection criteria of having a certain number of blacks is actually harming them.

 

[Chrish]

Opportunistic thread..

Team simply lacks good batsmen. Now whether it's circumstantial or because of quota, it's open for debate

 

[Leo23]

Saffers have been very disappointing. This England side was stronger last year v Pakistan as they had Woakes. It highlights how well Pakistan played last year. That was a fantastic series.

This series has been boring and one side. Even the test Saffers won was one sided.

I think the future of Saffers is uncertain and the selection criteria of having a certain number of blacks is actually harming them.

don't think it was stronger

stokes only played 1 test and anderson was not fully fit

but there is no doubt that pak played brilliant cricket and were unlucky to not win the series 2-1 or 3-1

 

[idrizzy]

Opportunistic thread..

Team simply lacks good batsmen. Now whether it's circumstantial or because of quota, it's open for debate

And that too without Steyn and Philander.

 

[The Googly]

Philander played 3 tests. Steyn is finished.

Rabada is a real talent but has been largely disappointing in this series.

 

[Talhah]

Thats a bit harsh. Its no shame losing to England in ENGLAND.They won series in New Zealand and Australia recently so i dont think its crisis time. Lets be real under the seaming conditions on offer during this series i cant really think of a side that would be beat England at home as there is no stand out team in world cricket as many teams rarely win away from home.

 

[Markhor]

He pushed the field back after Bairstow got dropped and allowed easy runs.

He's messed around with the batting order way too much. I don't understand why Faf doesn't just move himself up to 4. Quinton de Kock doesn't have the technique against lateral movement to justify a move up to 4 in English conditions.

What's the point of dropping Stephen Cook when you're replacing him with Heino Kuhn ? I'm surprised Kuhn's managed to play all four Tests when he looks a walking wicket every time he's at the crease.

 

[Markhor]

Saffers have been very disappointing. This England side was stronger last year v Pakistan as they had Woakes. It highlights how well Pakistan played last year. That was a fantastic series.

This series has been boring and one side. Even the test Saffers won was one sided.

I think the future of Saffers is uncertain and the selection criteria of having a certain number of blacks is actually harming them.

Is Heino Kuhn a quota player ? Whenever a black player doesn't succeed everyone wants to point the finger at quotas but these same player don't utter a word after the failure of a white player.

I agree with the first two paragraphs however.

 

[Rayyman]

Philander played 3 tests. Steyn is finished.

Rabada is a real talent but has been largely disappointing in this series.

Rabada is overrated

 

[Chief Destroyer]

Rabada is overrated

What's overrated about him?

 

[Rayyman]

What's overrated about him?

The fact that he is considered one of or the best bowler in the world by many PPers.

 

[Chief Destroyer]

The fact that he is considered one of or the best bowler in the world by many PPers.

Why is he not?

 

[The Googly]

Is Heino Kuhn a quota player ? Whenever a black player doesn't succeed everyone wants to point the finger at quotas but these same player don't utter a word after the failure of a white player.

I agree with the first two paragraphs however.

Fair point. Kuhn is almost as bad as Shan Masood.

The black players are actually all worth their place. Amla. Bavuna. Rabada. Maharaj. Philander.

The worst players are Kuhn and Olivier.

I take back my comment. Its the white players who are letting the team down.

 

[mak36]

The fact that he is considered one of or the best bowler in the world by many PPers.

Lacks consistency. He certainly has huge potential, but he needs to keep working hard to ensure he fulfils all his potential.

 

[Aman]

With Steyn and AB, I would have backed SA to win atleast 3 Tests.

They're struggling to knock over the lower order (think it's the second time they've saved England) and their batting is pretty suspect.

AB and Steyn would have helped to address those issues.

 

[Chrish]

Add Abbott and Philander (this game) to the list.

Any ways, I think Steyn is done so no point in mentioning him.

 

[wrongun]

Lacks consistency. He certainly has huge potential, but he needs to keep working hard to ensure he fulfils all his potential.

All players need to keep working hard.

But how does a guy who averages 24 in Test cricket and has averaged <30 in 5 of the 6 series he has played since his debut series lack consistency? Those are Warne or McGrath like numbers- even they would have the odd series every couple of years where they avgd 40 or whatever.

He's also leading wicket taker in the current series with an avg of 21. Who could possibly be consistent by your standards?

 

[wasimjunior]

Opportunistic p!ss taking thread..

Team simply lacks good batsmen. Now whether it's circumstantial or because of quota, it's open for debate

How can it be because of quota when the white players are equally awful

 

[mak36]

All players need to keep working hard.

But how does a guy who averages 24 in Test cricket and has averaged <30 in 5 of the 6 series he has played since his debut series lack consistency? Those are Warne or McGrath like numbers- even they would have the odd series every couple of years where they avgd 40 or whatever.

He's also leading wicket taker in the current series with an avg of 21. Who could possibly be consistent by your standards?

Firstly, have you actually watched the current series? He hasn't had a great series- that much would be obvious to even the causal viewer. Did you not hear Athers, Warne, Nasser, Holding and Gower all mention how Rabada has lacked consistency? As I said, he is a great talent but there is work to do.

Secondly, stop making facts up to support your argument. He is not the leading wicket taker in this series- Rabada has taken 14 whilst Moeen has taken 20 wickets. In fact, he is not even the leading SA wicket taker- both Maharaj (16) and Morkel (15) have taken more wickets than Rabada's 14.

Again, you have completely made up his average in the current series. His average in the series is 28.92 not 21- and that includes his four-for in the first innings (his best figures in the series).

 

[Junaids]

Saffers have been very disappointing. This England side was stronger last year v Pakistan as they had Woakes. It highlights how well Pakistan played last year. That was a fantastic series.

This series has been boring and one side. Even the test Saffers won was one sided.

I think the future of Saffers is uncertain and the selection criteria of having a certain number of blacks is actually harming them.

Absolutely.

If there was no racial quota, this team would be strengthened hugely by the selection of:

Stiaan Van Zyl
Dane Vilas (so De Kock could be a specialist batsman)
Kyle Abbott
Simon Harmer

That is four first choice players who have emigrated because they don't fit inside a racial quota.

 

[Junaids]

How can it be because of quota when the white players are equally awful

Because better white players emigrated when they realised that the quota of five whites is already taken up by

FAF
AB (when they emigrated)
Steyn (when they emigrated)
De Kock
Elgar or Morkel

That's why they left. These whites are just reserves.

 

[Markhor]

Absolutely.

If there was no racial quota, this team would be strengthened hugely by the selection of:

Stiaan Van Zyl
Dane Vilas (so De Kock could be a specialist batsman)
Kyle Abbott
Simon Harmer

That is four first choice players who have emigrated because they don't fit inside a racial quota.

Yes the 26 averaging Stiann Van Zyl who's already played 12 Test matches and has only scored 1 hundred and not a single fifty in his 17 innings would hugely strengthen South Africa.

As would the 32 year old Dane Vilas who's played 6 Tests and whose highest score is only 26 from 9 innings.

 

[MMHS]

Absolutely.

If there was no racial quota, this team would be strengthened hugely by the selection of:

Stiaan Van Zyl
Dane Vilas (so De Kock could be a specialist batsman)
Kyle Abbott
Simon Harmer

That is four first choice players who have emigrated because they don't fit inside a racial quota.

You seriously believe that Harmer, Abbott are better than Mahraj, Vernon & Rabada?

Now I do realize a bit of what actually racism is & what SAF not whites went through in past.

 

[Junaids]

Yes the 26 averaging Stiann Van Zyl who's already played 12 Test matches and has only scored 1 hundred and not a single fifty in his 17 innings would hugely strengthen South Africa.

As would the 32 year old Dane Vilas who's played 6 Tests and whose highest score is only 26 from 9 innings.

Yes.

Because Kuhn and De Bruyn were always inferior to them, just as Olivier is inferior to Kyle Abbott.

South Africa only has 4 million whites - the same population as New Zealand or Queensland in Australia. There isn't enough talent to win in spite of quotas which discriminate against the race with the most good players.

The quota of whites is five:

FAF
AB
De Kock
Steyn
Elgar

Even Morkel and Kyle Abbott only get in if injuries permit.

 

[Junaids]

You seriously believe that Harmer, Abbott are better than Mahraj, Vernon & Rabada?

Now I do realize a bit of what actually racism is & what SAF not whites went through in past.

Rabada is fine, no argument.

The problem is that the quota drives out the 5th to 10th best whites to county contracts under Kolpak.

If I had to pick the strongest South African team it would be:

1 Elgar
2 Cook
3 Amla
4 De Villiers
5 Du Plessis
6 De Kock (as a specialist batsman)
7 Vilas (wk)
8 Philander
9 Rabada
10 Steyn
11 Abbott

But I have 2 coloureds, 1 black player and 8 whites - three over the quota.

So you end up with Bavuma instead of De Kock or De Villiers as a specialist batsman. Maharaj instead of Kyle Abbott.

Ok, Steyn is injured - but Morkel would replace him. Do you seriously think my team wouldn't have won this series 4-0? It's far stronger than the official one.

 

[mak36]

Rabada is fine, no argument.

The problem is that the quota drives out the 5th to 10th best whites to county contracts under Kolpak.

If I had to pick the strongest South African team it would be:

1 Elgar
2 Cook
3 Amla
4 De Villiers
5 Du Plessis
6 De Kock (as a specialist batsman)
7 Vilas (wk)
8 Philander
9 Rabada
10 Steyn
11 Abbott

But I have 2 coloureds, 1 black player and 8 whites - three over the quota.

So you end up with Bavuma instead of De Kock or De Villiers as a specialist batsman. Maharaj instead of Kyle Abbott.

Ok, Steyn is injured - but Morkel would replace him. Do you seriously think my team wouldn't have won this series 4-0? It's far stronger than the official one.

I'm not a fan of quotas, but you are quite clearly trying to amend the facts to suit your preconceived conclusions.

Why do you have no spinner in the team? Maybe it is because Maharaj is a better bowler than Harmer? It's almost as if you don't want facts to get in the way of your narrative.

Cook was given plenty of opportunities and was replaced by another white SA, so him being dropped had nothing to do with the quota. Stop conflating different points.

By his own admission AB is currently choosing not to play tests, so stop trying to pin that on the quota. If AB was available, they would have picked him. Do you deny that?

Several times throughout this series CSA have emphasised that the quota is a year average and they have said how they would field the best xi, even if it meant not meeting the quota. Why have you not mentioned that?

Nor have you mentioned that Duminy was sent back to SA because of his poor performance, despite him being a black player. Did it slip your mind?

 

[MMHS]

Rabada is fine, no argument.

The problem is that the quota drives out the 5th to 10th best whites to county contracts under Kolpak.

If I had to pick the strongest South African team it would be:

1 Elgar
2 Cook
3 Amla
4 De Villiers
5 Du Plessis
6 De Kock (as a specialist batsman)
7 Vilas (wk)
8 Philander
9 Rabada
10 Steyn
11 Abbott

But I have 2 coloureds, 1 black player and 8 whites - three over the quota.

So you end up with Bavuma instead of De Kock or De Villiers as a specialist batsman. Maharaj instead of Kyle Abbott.

Ok, Steyn is injured - but Morkel would replace him. Do you seriously think my team wouldn't have won this series 4-0? It's far stronger than the official one.

You won't get away with this one.

This is absolute rubbish idea to play 4 pacers & no spinner, just to fit your agenda because it happens to be that the best 2 spinners in SAF are not white. If you think that 4 pacers are the way, then why did you mention Harmar in your initial post? Not to mention that Mahraj is actually the 2nd highest wicket taker in this series, while had he been fit in last 2 Tests, Vernon was best bid for MoS in this series.

Second part of post is another hypocrisy- you are one guy who had been advocating for an all rounder & runs from WK in each of your post - such desperately that you thought Yamin, Shadab or even Nawaz is a better fit than Yasir in PAK team for their potential to score 10 more runs/innings. Now, you are asking for Kok to play as specialist bat & 6 specialist batsmen so that you can put Vilas in the team as WK. Another biased argument to fit your agenda, but I give it to you - with a little adjustment. If Kok is to play as specialist bat, I'll open with him instead of those sick notes like Cook or Khun & keep Bvuma at 5. Kok opens in ODI, so shouldn't be any issue & Cook/Khun's skin colour doesn't make them better player than Bvuma. Just in case, you might not be comfortable for Kok opening in a game with 2/3 slips - Amal can always open & he did it many times. Bottom line is - Bvuma is there on merit over the other 2 white openers SAF tried in last few series.

So, the revised team stands as -

Elgar
Kok/Amla
Amal/Kok
AB
FaF (as Captain, on batting merit he doesn't make it)
Bvuma
Vilas (wk)
All-rounder (Morris or the other guy, probably Pretorious by name - both white)
Vernon
Mahraj
Styen
Rabada

That's perfectly complies with their racial quota & still the possible best XI. I for someone never advocating for the racial quota, but your constant rant against non white players is not a good taste. SAF is suffering because, overall their team is struggling & 2 of their world class players are under performing - one is non white Amla, who is a shadow of his past & other one is a selfish premadona, left team when they needed him most. In this series, whatever they have achieved it's entirely because of their non white players - Elgar's wonderful innings was in a lost course.

Next time, if you are to bring this topic, you'll have to come with better logic than like AB De Villers quoting SAF Test team so that his boyhood pal FaF can keep playing .....

 

[Junaids]

[MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION]
I don't think that South Africa has had an international class spinner since readmission.

On a tour of England I'd pick Kyle Abbott as my fourth bowler.

 

[MMHS]

[MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION]
I don't think that South Africa has had an international class spinner since readmission.

On a tour of England I'd pick Kyle Abbott as my fourth bowler.

That's expected from an Englishman - Spin is the last thing that I would like to discuss here. I understand from where you are coming for 4 pacers, which I do agree, hence I have picked one all-rounder as 4th pacer, either of whom is capable of taking 10 wickets at 35 in a 5 Test series & bat at 7. I for one, will always pick a spinner even for a Test at WACA - ironically, a venue where Mahraj debuted & your comments regarding him on Day 1, didn't go well after Day 5 there as well.

International class - can't say, because I am not sure what standard you set for Spinners to be International class, but as of now, that Mahraj guy has taken 40 wickets at <26.00/<3.00 stats for 10 Tests, 44 in 11, if I take the running one with 2 5ford & 1 4fors in 18 innings (& all of them outside Asia), which actually is better than any SAF pacer, barring Styen - and he is batting at 16 average from No. 10 as well. Interestingly, he has so far 17 wickets in this current series in 3.5 Test at 27, best by average & wickets among SAF bowlers. His extended FC stats are exceptional in any standard for 90 matches - 300+ wickets at 26 with 16 5for/2 10fors & 2000+ runs at 22, with 2 centuries.

As I mentioned many times, I don't get the motivation to discuss spinners & their role in a Test match with you, but here I had to bring the numbers, because you thought Harmar was denied a SAF cap for the skin color of Mahraj, rather than his cricket skills - which, unfortunately is a sickening example of racism, I am sorry if I sound harsh here.

 

[wrongun]

Firstly, have you actually watched the current series? He hasn't had a great series- that much would be obvious to even the causal viewer. Did you not hear Athers, Warne, Nasser, Holding and Gower all mention how Rabada has lacked consistency? As I said, he is a great talent but there is work to do.

Secondly, stop making facts up to support your argument. He is not the leading wicket taker in this series- Rabada has taken 14 whilst Moeen has taken 20 wickets. In fact, he is not even the leading SA wicket taker- both Maharaj (16) and Morkel (15) have taken more wickets than Rabada's 14.

Again, you have completely made up his average in the current series. His average in the series is 28.92 not 21- and that includes his four-for in the first innings (his best figures in the series).

It was correct at time of writing. I don't base my opinion on what commentators say, I base it on my own observations. I think he's a top line operator. Guys like Johnson, Broad, they are more inconsistent. Rabada has been consistently good so far imo. He's a strike bowler, not a container in that side so his job is to get wickets & gets 4+ a test. His avg is great and that's a the best measure of consistency we have.

He's 22, he's not the finished article but he'd walk into any test bowling lineup as a starter, Oz, England, Pak, India, you name it, no questions asked. There'd be no questions about whether he was consistent enough. He produces what is required - wickets- regularly.

 

[R0H1T]

Tbf to Faf there are no exceptional captains in the world anymore, most exceptional captains have had great teams to back them up, these days however captains can;t turn the rising turn tide in their favor. You had Broder which made Oz into the dominating force of the late 90's & 2k, Clive was arguably the best as he pretty much made the great Windian side & they reigned over test cricket for a good 2 decades.

Now whenever teams face unfamiliar or hostile conditions, not many of them can counter or grind it out these days, unless it's a flat track. This is the underbelly of modern day tests teams, their batting is weak in testing conditions, I feel teams with better batting will stay more resilient in these turbulent times. SA don;t have that batting depth, it;ll take them a while to get back onto their feet again, there;s also little chance that they;ll be able to replicate their away success from the last decade ever again.

 

[Titan24]

Its never easy when in two of the matches out of four you are without the best bowling lineup n overseas seaming tracks.


For one match Rabada wasnt available and for one and a half matches Philander was out with injury.