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Father pardons man who assaulted his hearing-impaired daughter due to "influential elders"

Markhor

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https://www.dawn.com/news/1387046/f...ape-his-17-year-old-hearing-impaired-daughter

If you are poor in Pakistan, you are on the same level as vermin in the food chain - and disabled women even lower. This pardoning system is a tool for the rich to commit crimes with impunity.

A 17-year-old hearing impaired girl's father on Thursday pardoned her rapist in a Gujjar Khan sessions court. According to the police, Munir Ahmed had filed a complaint in police station (PS) Gujar Khan, against a man on February 6, 2016.

In his complaint, Ahmed said that while he originally belonged to Khairpur Tehsil, District Muzaffargarh, he and his family were presently residing at the mansion of Chaudhry Fida Hussain of Gujar Khan. His duty was to take care of Chaudhry’s cattle.

According to the complaint, Ahmed along with his brother, nephews and daughter, was returning from the fields when he heard his daughter scream.

As the Ahmed and the other men rushed back, they saw that the accused was sexually assaulting the girl. Once he saw the men the suspect ran off, the initial police report said.

According to the police, the girl was then taken to District Headquarters Hospital in Gujjar Khan for a medical exam, and while the exam proved that there was rape, no DNA samples were taken to identify the suspect.


Sub-inspector Police Nadeem Ahmed, who was initially in charge of the case, told DawnNews that they did everything possible to search for the suspect but he was never found at the time. The police even widened its search to Kallar Syedan and Jehlum but were unsuccessful in capturing the accused, the sub-inspector said.

Once Nadeem Ahmed was transferred, Sub-inspector Arif was made in charge of the case. Speaking to DawnNews on the matter Arif said that he had continued looking for the suspect but he had remained an absconder for the past two years until he came to the sessions court one day to procure interim bail.

During the same hearing, the girl's father took the stand and said that he had pardoned the suspect. Ahmad also said that he had registered the complaint against the suspect by mistake and now wanted to withdraw it. According to eyewitnesses at the court, the 17-year-old hearing impaired girl was crying in court while her father pardoned the suspect.

Talking to DawnNews, Ahmad said that he was made to sign the affidavit by "influential elders" of the area and did not even know what was written in it.

He also said that he belonged to a poor family, while the suspect was a relative of the family he worked for.


According to the police, they will call the suspect a convict in their final report and then leave him to the court's mercy.
 
There should not be any pardon law. The state should file a case against culprit and remove this pardon law as it is used by ruch people.
 
Who made this pardon law,wonder if the workers at court get so numbed down by cases,I personally would be aggravated at the way courts work in our part of the world.
 
Yay for Islamic law. Who doesn't like a good heartwarming story of a rapist or murderer looking at life in prison or worse walking free instead. No one in Pakistan gets to complain about this when they're routinely polled at 80-90% support for sharia law, that joke of a legal system.
 
There is a huge issue with the law, if you are rich and powerful you can get away with anything.
 
The issue is that in modern times such a law cannot exist because of problems with implementation. You basically are living in a society which isnt purely Islamic and isnt purely democratic. Sometimes the contradictory laws are inter-mixed in one set up making a recipie for disaster. This law would have been fine in old times when the society was by and large Islamic and no external values had crept in. In the contemporary world, that is not the case. For this law to exist the state would have to ensure that the victim and his family isnt influenced or pressured by anyone. Moreover in cases of rape, the right should be given to the victim if he/she is not a minor as per law. This however is almost impossible to achieve in the current context. Hence, there is no ground for this law to continue in this day and age when the state is forced to be a mute spectator.
 
Even before entering this thread, I had an idea that usual Desi Atheists would have already graced the place with their regular anti Islamic tirade

Proved right again.
 
There is a huge issue with the law, if you are rich and powerful you can get away with anything.

Like raping children, I have to agree with Pakistani atheists, it must be down to religion, and specifically Islam.
 
Like raping children, I have to agree with Pakistani atheists, it must be down to religion, and specifically Islam.

I was talking about "Diyat" (blood money) in particular, rich can easily afford paying blood money and get away with murders or rapes or whatever they do but poor person who can't afford blood money will have to suffer?

Raymond Davis who killed innocent people got away with paying blood money.

Sharukh Jatoi almost got away with murder of Shahzaib by paying huge amount to parents who actually had no option but to accept it since they lives had been ruined and had so much pressure.

Do you think it's fair that rich can pay to get away with crimes?
 
I was talking about "Diyat" (blood money) in particular, rich can easily afford paying blood money and get away with murders or rapes or whatever they do but poor person who can't afford blood money will have to suffer?

Raymond Davis who killed innocent people got away with paying blood money.

Sharukh Jatoi almost got away with murder of Shahzaib by paying huge amount to parents who actually had no option but to accept it since they lives had been ruined and had so much pressure.

Do you think it's fair that rich can pay to get away with crimes?

No I don't, but if it is endorsed by religion as suggested by leading intellects of this forum, then we must accept it. After all, Pakistan is officially an Islamic state, and two posters in this thread have suggested that Islamic law is the main reason why this crime goes unpunished.
 
No I don't, but if it is endorsed by religion as suggested by leading intellects of this forum, then we must accept it. After all, Pakistan is officially an Islamic state, and two posters in this thread have suggested that Islamic law is the main reason why this crime goes unpunished.

There are so many things in religion that people take in black and white without understanding the context. I am sure there would be some examples (both for poor and rich people) from Prophet's time which would help reform this law. I really don't believe that if two people went to Prophet (or any Khalifa) after committing a crime, they would ask rich person to pay blood money and poor to get punished just because he/she couldn't afford blood money.
 
There are so many things in religion that people take in black and white without understanding the context. I am sure there would be some examples (both for poor and rich people) from Prophet's time which would help reform this law. I really don't believe that if two people went to Prophet (or any Khalifa) after committing a crime, they would ask rich person to pay blood money and poor to get punished just because he/she couldn't afford blood money.

That is all well and good, but instead of looking to the past, we could look to what is happening right now in today's world. Pakistan could follow the example of more progressive and prosperous neighbour Rising India, where secular law means rape and child abuse is virtually unheard of, and certainly you would never get the good and honest law enforcement agents bowing to power or money.
 
If you are not rich or powerful your life doesn’t matter in our part of the world.. If you are poor the you would be treated worse than vermin, it’s just the sad truth..
 
Even before entering this thread, I had an idea that usual Desi Atheists would have already graced the place with their regular anti Islamic tirade

Proved right again.

Maybe if rapists and murderers didn't keep walking free in my country every third day due to ridiculous Islamic laws, we wouldn't have a reason to go after them. Until the laws of your religion, which are supposedly for all times, keep facilitating the freedom of rapists people will rightly keep calling out Islamic laws for being a rapist's best friend.
 
Maybe if rapists and murderers didn't keep walking free in my country every third day due to ridiculous Islamic laws, we wouldn't have a reason to go after them. Until the laws of your religion, which are supposedly for all times, keep facilitating the freedom of rapists people will rightly keep calling out Islamic laws for being a rapist's best friend.

There is no law in Islam which says that murderers and rapists are to be freed purely on the payment of money.

Those verses about qisas and diyyah were revealed to tackle the issue of tribal retaliation, what today would be known as civil disputes, which back then would have resulted in tribal hostility. Now we would go to a civil claims court. Unless you're a nutter and actually do murder someone.

The use of those verses today is clearly in an unjust manner, therefore it actually goes against the principles of what Islam has prescribed. Islamic legislation is meant to be just, and clearly the implementation here is not just, therefore it is unislamic.

Maybe you could explain how blood money is the obligatory prescribed punishment in Islam, and not just an incorrectly implemented law?

Murder and rape are two different crimes, and even then, one has to look at the details of each case.
 
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There is no law in Islam which says that murderers and rapists are to be freed purely on the payment of money.

Those verses about qisas and diyyah were revealed to tackle the issue of tribal retaliation, what today would be known as civil disputes, which back then would have resulted in tribal hostility. Now we would go to a civil claims court. Unless you're a nutter and actually do murder someone.

The use of those verses today is clearly in an unjust manner, therefore it actually goes against the principles of what Islam has prescribed. Islamic legislation is meant to be just, and clearly the implementation here is not just, therefore it is unislamic.

Maybe you could explain how blood money is the obligatory prescribed punishment in Islam, and not just an incorrectly implemented law?

Murder and rape are two different crimes, and even then, one has to look at the details of each case.

The problem with Islamic laws is that to their proponents they conveniently go from being for all time to being for specific situations in specific times (when they cause a miscarriage of justice like they did here). If those verses were revealed for a specific situation 1400 years ago, why do we have these laws on the books for murder, rape and larceny? When you go a civil court, guess which law is used to facilitate the perpetrator(s) walking free.

Islamic legislation was never just. There have always been double standards and laws that apply differently to different groups (men vs women, Muslim citizens vs non-Muslim citizens and so on). They were a minor improvement over the existing laws of their time and they're a major liability today for any country that continues to use them. The inclusion of Qisas and Diyat to Pakistani law was under the auspices of the Sunni clergy and at no point was it specified that it only applied to prevent tribal vengeance or whatever excuse is being used to portray the misuse of laws that are supposed to be perfect and eternal.

While blood money is not obligatory, the fact that it is an option means that those who can will continue to get away with murder/rape/whatever else Qisas and Diyat laws apply to. The problem is with the law itself if it allows the possibility for blood money, and when it - along with another ridiculous law, the Qanoon e Shahadat - allows rapists to walk free, the blame falls squarely on the laws since the way the perpetrators walked free was completely legal under the existing laws which, in turn, are lifted straight from Sharia law.

Murder and rape are two different crimes but what they have in common is that perpetrators of both crimes regularly walk free due to certain Islamic laws here and what's particularly galling is that in the case of rape, victims are more likely to serve jail time than perpetrators because of the combination of two Islamic laws, one concerning the burden of proof in rape cases and another, particularly barbaric, law that prescribes stoning to death/100 lashes (10 years in jail in Pakistan) for sexual activity outside of marriage, even between two consenting adults.
 
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The problem with Islamic laws is that to their proponents they conveniently go from being for all time to being for specific situations in specific times (when they cause a miscarriage of justice like they did here). If those verses were revealed for a specific situation 1400 years ago, why do we have these laws on the books for murder, rape and larceny? When you go a civil court, guess which law is used to facilitate the perpetrator(s) walking free.

Islamic legislation was never just. There have always been double standards and laws that apply differently to different groups (men vs women, Muslim citizens vs non-Muslim citizens and so on). They were a minor improvement over the existing laws of their time and they're a major liability today for any country that continues to use them. The inclusion of Qisas and Diyat to Pakistani law was under the auspices of the Sunni clergy and at no point was it specified that it only applied to prevent tribal vengeance or whatever excuse is being used to portray the misuse of laws that are supposed to be perfect and eternal.

While blood money is not obligatory, the fact that it is an option means that those who can will continue to get away with murder/rape/whatever else Qisas and Diyat laws apply to. The problem is with the law itself if it allows the possibility for blood money, and when it - along with another ridiculous law, the Qanoon e Shahadat - allows rapists to walk free, the blame falls squarely on the laws since the way the perpetrators walked free was completely legal under the existing laws which, in turn, are lifted straight from Sharia law.

Murder and rape are two different crimes but what they have in common is that perpetrators of both crimes regularly walk free due to certain Islamic laws here and what's particularly galling is that in the case of rape, victims are more likely to serve jail time than perpetrators because of the combination of two Islamic laws, one concerning the burden of proof in rape cases and another, particularly barbaric, law that prescribes stoning to death/100 lashes (10 years in jail in Pakistan) for sexual activity outside of marriage, even between two consenting adults.

I don't disagree with much of what you have said, only that it is not Islam which has prescribed this rubbish that goes on in Pakistan as an option.

If you look at the history and formation of Islamic governance and law, a lot of it comes from evidence based formation, or referring to what has happened in previous cases during the Prophet's (pbuh) time. Not too dissimilar to using case law today.

The problem in the Islamic world is the stagnation of skilled jurists with actual commonsense.

As you say, the problem is with jurists not specifying context, and ignoring hundreds of years of Islamic law discussion.

For example, Imam Hanafi deemed that diyyah should be an equal amount no matter who you are, Muslim or Non Muslim. Others disagreed.

When our most learned scholars could sit down and discuss legislation under Islamic principles, it angers me to see the jahil insaan we have in charge of our institutions today.

Please do not mistake me as someone who sympathises with what has happened one bit or not seeing how the Islamic laws are misused. There is nothing in Islam that stops the crime of rape being a harm to society, therefore after an evidence based trial, if there is guilt attributed to any party, then there should be no leniency. A rapist is a threat to society. It's not a civil matter, it's a criminal one.

There is nothing in Islam which would stop that from happening.

As you also say, go figure, that the laws (whjich aren't even implemented correctly or justly) which allow the rich to roam free without scrutiny are the ones which get propelled to the top.
 
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The other problem is extrapolating other rulings and trying to make it fit where there isn't one.

For example, the issue of burden of proof and 4 witnesses, that is only attributed to zina, where the hell did people ever get the notion it should be for rape as well?

There is a message in the fact that 4 witnesses are required for zina, that Allah would rather cover such a sin than let it infect the community as a habit. It also stops people from making false allegations.

If a man and woman both say that nothing was done, then that is where the matter ends, even if there were 3 witnesses to the event.

People are just messed up. Where there is no specific ruling, then there has always been flexibility to come to a reasonable punishment which fits the crime.
 
I don't disagree with much of what you have said, only that it is not Islam which has prescribed this rubbish that goes on in Pakistan as an option.

If you look at the history and formation of Islamic governance and law, a lot of it comes from evidence based formation, or referring to what has happened in previous cases during the Prophet's (pbuh) time. Not too dissimilar to using case law today.

The problem in the Islamic world is the stagnation of skilled jurists with actual commonsense.
The stagnation of skilled jurors goes back a few hundred years (13th century) and at no point has it been addressed so it's safe to say that Islamic scholars over the centuries accept the existing state of Islamic law to be fine. This leaves two options: do away with Islamic law as a whole or attempt to reform parts of it which would have been done at some point in the last 700 years if it were possible or if there was a will for it.

As you say, the problem is with jurists not specifying context, and ignoring hundreds of years of Islamic law discussion.
Context is rarely specified anywhere Islamic law is used because that then leaves open the possibility of situations arising that there are no laws to address. Normally, you'd make new laws but the status of Ijtihad, the way to do so in Islam, is controversial to say the least.

For example, Imam Hanafi deemed that diyyah should be an equal amount no matter who you are, Muslim or Non Muslim. Others disagreed.
Others disagreed. And herein lies the problem. Islam is divided into many sects which then have subsects which are further split into various schools of thought (Sunni-Hanfi-Deobandi, Sunni-Hanbali-Wahabi, Shia-Twelver etc), all with their own interpretations of Islamic laws that vary greatly. There is no standard and the existence of so many conflicting interpretations proves, among other things, the imperfection of Islamic law and the fact that any implementation will always be dependant on interpretation by the clergy which, for the last century, has leaned heavily towards vague, all encompassing laws incorporating the most conservative interpretations and liberal use of inhumane penalties (lashes/stoning to death for pre/extra-marital sex).

Right now, three out of four schools of thought in Sunni Islam (all except Hanfi) don't allow non-Muslims recourse to Qisas/Diyat. All four schools of thought have a tradition of scholarship spanning centuries and if, after several centuries of deliberations and tweaking, they have reached a consensus that is discriminatory, I hope you'd pardon me for not putting too much faith in proclamations that Islamic laws are not discriminatory.

When our most learned scholars could sit down and discuss legislation under Islamic principles, it angers me to see the jahil insaan we have in charge of our institutions today.
That applies to virtually any country governed by Islamic law. Laws governing blood money, blasphemy and adultery/fornication are broadly similar in several Islamic states other than Pakistan which suggests that there is a template that is broadly agreed upon by the scholarly classes of various countries and sects, so either all those scholars in ,say, Iran, UAE or Saudi Arabia are jahils or you have an idealistic view of Islam that is detached from the ground realities. Whether or not you're correct or the scholars are is irrelevant since what the scholars say has legal weight and the victims of Islamic law will take little solace from the fact that the laws used to free their rapist/murder their brother accused of blasphemy or apostasy may not necessarily be strictly compliant with the mythical concept of "real Islam". It is for this reason that the whole concept of Islamic law needs to be scrapped and replaced with modern secular laws based on scientific merit and success in other jurisdictions.

Please do not mistake me as someone who sympathises with what has happened one bit or not seeing how the Islamic laws are misused. There is nothing in Islam that stops the crime of rape being a harm to society, therefore after an evidence based trial, if there is guilt attributed to any party, then there should be no leniency. A rapist is a threat to society. It's not a civil matter, it's a criminal one.
I did not. If I did, I'd be going after you like I do Hafeezrocks etc, not having a civilized discussion on the merits of our arguments. I do not, however, agree that Islam has played no role in the proliferation of rape in our society, what with the discriminatory laws, the war on human nature with the Islamic viewpoint on premarital sexual activity, or the second class status of women.


There is nothing in Islam which would stop that from happening.

As you also say, go figure, that the laws (whjich aren't even implemented correctly or justly) which allow the rich to roam free without scrutiny are the ones which get propelled to the top.
Again, theoretical Islam is not the problem, the one that exists is. While Islam may not, in theory, stop prosecution of rapists, the vaguely worded Islamic laws, the Quran being open to interpretation and the unreliability of hadith means that if Islam is allowed to become a tool of the state, the state will use it for its own benefit. The solution is to wait another 700 years, almost certainly in vain, for the elusive true Islam to finally manifest itself or to do away with Islam as a basis for the legal system and use laws that have demonstrably been successful across various jurisdictions and time periods (secular law).
 
If you are not rich or powerful your life doesn’t matter in our part of the world.. If you are poor the you would be treated worse than vermin, it’s just the sad truth..

The problem is Shariah law, by deflecting to make this issue about money you aren't doing the poor any favours. Join the campaign to remove Islamic law from India's statutes and you will see rape and child abuse disappear.
 
Maybe if rapists and murderers didn't keep walking free in my country every third day due to ridiculous Islamic laws, we wouldn't have a reason to go after them. Until the laws of your religion, which are supposedly for all times, keep facilitating the freedom of rapists people will rightly keep calling out Islamic laws for being a rapist's best friend.

Rape and murder is worldwide problem. In ind and other places babies are raped, is Islam to blame for that too? In the UK we had reports of female nursery nurses raping young toddlers, is this Islams problem. And too finish off, UK which is not an Islamic country has a conviction rate of less than 5%, out of the cases reported. How do you explain that. The one thing i do agree with you is that the law is being abused by people buying their way out, and whether its Islamic or not, that is not justice.
 
The problem is Shariah law, by deflecting to make this issue about money you aren't doing the poor any favours. Join the campaign to remove Islamic law from India's statutes and you will see rape and child abuse disappear.

Ind has a worse than problem than PK as far as rape of females is concerned.
 
Rape and murder is worldwide problem. In ind and other places babies are raped, is Islam to blame for that too? In the UK we had reports of female nursery nurses raping young toddlers, is this Islams problem. And too finish off, UK which is not an Islamic country has a conviction rate of less than 5%, out of the cases reported. How do you explain that. The one thing i do agree with you is that the law is being abused by people buying their way out, and whether its Islamic or not, that is not justice.

None of those places have laws that allow rapists and murderers to walk free by paying blood money. Pakistan does. The only other country where I'm aware of recent cases of rape victims being jailed under adultery laws like in Pakistan is the UAE. I don't know why you're agreeing with me that the laws are being misused because I didn't say that. The laws are inherently prone to being used for the exact purpose they're being used for so I don't know about misuse, the problem is with the laws themselves. If a murderer or rapist pays Diyat and walks, something is wrong with the law that allows it and in Pakistan's case, the worst injustices always come from Islamic laws governing sexuality and reparations (rape victims going to jail, rapists walking free, murderers walking free). I've lived long enough in the UK to know that it has no such laws and I know for a fact that India doesn't either. Murder/rape may happen everywhere but the way they're dealt with in Islam is the problem.
 
The problem is Shariah law, by deflecting to make this issue about money you aren't doing the poor any favours. Join the campaign to remove Islamic law from India's statutes and you will see rape and child abuse disappear.


Not sure about Islamic law but problem of rapes is generally due to many factors
1. Patriarchal society
2. Sexual frustration
3. Lack of experience/available options
4. Sick mindset
5. Lack of deterence
6. No proper implementation of law and order
7. Sense of belief of getting away with it.

I don’t know what [MENTION=26195]DW44[/MENTION] meant by blaming Islamic law but I guess if he meant that in Islamic law there is an option where you can pay money and the family of victim will forgive you then that law itself will be kis used in today’s world especially in sub continent where he poor will be forced to abide by it..

Saudi and UAE follow Islamic law I believe and crime there is very less compared to sub continent so it’s not exactly the Islamic laws but the people of sub continent and their mentality.
 
None of those places have laws that allow rapists and murderers to walk free by paying blood money. Pakistan does. The only other country where I'm aware of recent cases of rape victims being jailed under adultery laws like in Pakistan is the UAE. I don't know why you're agreeing with me that the laws are being misused because I didn't say that. The laws are inherently prone to being used for the exact purpose they're being used for so I don't know about misuse, the problem is with the laws themselves. If a murderer or rapist pays Diyat and walks, something is wrong with the law that allows it and in Pakistan's case, the worst injustices always come from Islamic laws governing sexuality and reparations (rape victims going to jail, rapists walking free, murderers walking free). I've lived long enough in the UK to know that it has no such laws and I know for a fact that India doesn't either. Murder/rape may happen everywhere but the way they're dealt with in Islam is the problem.

Lets go with your argument and agree that the law is wrong and that is the cause of the rapes. How do you explain the number of rapes around the world? Why is the UK conviction rate next to nothing, and that is also true in most Western countries.
 
Lets go with your argument and agree that the law is wrong and that is the cause of the rapes. How do you explain the number of rapes around the world? Why is the UK conviction rate next to nothing, and that is also true in most Western countries.


Care to explain what exactly is the law? I am curious to know the details.
 
None of those places have laws that allow rapists and murderers to walk free by paying blood money. Pakistan does. The only other country where I'm aware of recent cases of rape victims being jailed under adultery laws like in Pakistan is the UAE. I don't know why you're agreeing with me that the laws are being misused because I didn't say that. The laws are inherently prone to being used for the exact purpose they're being used for so I don't know about misuse, the problem is with the laws themselves. If a murderer or rapist pays Diyat and walks, something is wrong with the law that allows it and in Pakistan's case, the worst injustices always come from Islamic laws governing sexuality and reparations (rape victims going to jail, rapists walking free, murderers walking free). I've lived long enough in the UK to know that it has no such laws and I know for a fact that India doesn't either. Murder/rape may happen everywhere but the way they're dealt with in Islam is the problem.

And the other thing i should have added is that people dont have to forgive, or are you saying that its the law that they have to forgive?
 
Not sure about Islamic law but problem of rapes is generally due to many factors
1. Patriarchal society
2. Sexual frustration
3. Lack of experience/available options
4. Sick mindset
5. Lack of deterence
6. No proper implementation of law and order
7. Sense of belief of getting away with it.

I don’t know what [MENTION=26195]DW44[/MENTION] meant by blaming Islamic law but I guess if he meant that in Islamic law there is an option where you can pay money and the family of victim will forgive you then that law itself will be kis used in today’s world especially in sub continent where he poor will be forced to abide by it..

Saudi and UAE follow Islamic law I believe and crime there is very less compared to sub continent so it’s not exactly the Islamic laws but the people of sub continent and their mentality.

Maybe Saudis and UAE countries aren't implementing Islamic laws properly if they have less rape and child abuse than the subcontinent. get with the programme my friend, you are deflecting again.
 
Lets go with your argument and agree that the law is wrong and that is the cause of the rapes. How do you explain the number of rapes around the world? Why is the UK conviction rate next to nothing, and that is also true in most Western countries.
That wasn't even my argument. I didn't attribute the existence of rape to these laws, I attacked the laws for providing a legal way out for murderers and rapists, and, in the case of rape, incarcerating the victim on adultery charges. Rape conviction rates are low worldwide, that shouldn't come as a surprise given the challenges involved in successfully prosecuting a rape case. The point is that few countries except
Islamic ones actively legislate to make rape harder to prosecute while having provisions that not only allow the perpetrator to walk free even in the presence of irrefutable evidence, and potentially imprison the victim if the state is so inclined.

And the other thing i should have added is that people dont have to forgive, or are you saying that its the law that they have to forgive?
If a law exists that allows them to forgive, it will obviously be made use of. If the FBI can't prevent victim intimidation, Pakistani police certainly isn't going to especially when there's precedent for both the government and the military in Pakistan using this law to facilitate Raymond Davis' freedom. Then there's honor killings where one member of the family kills the victim and another forgives the killer. Simple solution would be to get rid of the law altogether but apparently its more important in Pakistan not to touch Islamic laws than it is to ensure that anyone with a few million to their names don't have carte blanche to rape and murder.
 
What this law proves, is that in Islam, women are property- either the father's or the husbands.

That is why, its the father who has the right to forgive and not the victim themselves.
 
That wasn't even my argument. I didn't attribute the existence of rape to these laws, I attacked the laws for providing a legal way out for murderers and rapists, and, in the case of rape, incarcerating the victim on adultery charges. Rape conviction rates are low worldwide, that shouldn't come as a surprise given the challenges involved in successfully prosecuting a rape case. The point is that few countries except
Islamic ones actively legislate to make rape harder to prosecute while having provisions that not only allow the perpetrator to walk free even in the presence of irrefutable evidence, and potentially imprison the victim if the state is so inclined.


If a law exists that allows them to forgive, it will obviously be made use of. If the FBI can't prevent victim intimidation, Pakistani police certainly isn't going to especially when there's precedent for both the government and the military in Pakistan using this law to facilitate Raymond Davis' freedom. Then there's honor killings where one member of the family kills the victim and another forgives the killer. Simple solution would be to get rid of the law altogether but apparently its more important in Pakistan not to touch Islamic laws than it is to ensure that anyone with a few million to their names don't have carte blanche to rape and murder.

But even in the UK people dont report rape for whatever reason, so in practicality that is a form of forgiveness. Should people be forced be to report the rape.
You proved my exactly about the fact its the implementation with witness intimidation being a problem, but even if people werent forgiven you would still have that.
The problem with any rape law is that in most cases, its one persons word against another, who do you believe.
 
Nothing wrong with the law, because guilty still go unpunished in other countries where such law doesn't exist.
 
Nothing wrong with the law, because guilty still go unpunished in other countries where such law doesn't exist.

The thing that is wrong with the law, is that the victim is treated like property and the forgiveness is not coming from the victim but the 'master owner'.

Maybe you'd understand if one day you were beaten up and broke a few teeth and the perp was forgiven by your mother and so you have no say in the matter.
 
Maybe if rapists and murderers didn't keep walking free in my country every third day due to ridiculous Islamic laws, we wouldn't have a reason to go after them. Until the laws of your religion, which are supposedly for all times, keep facilitating the freedom of rapists people will rightly keep calling out Islamic laws for being a rapist's best friend.



Can you give any details which show rapists and murderers once convicted walk free so regularly, every third day in Pakistan?
 
What this law proves, is that in Islam, women are property- either the father's or the husbands.

That is why, its the father who has the right to forgive and not the victim themselves.

Again you make ignorant claims and will not back them up. Please start a thread and prove women are property of men in Islam and any other claims you have regarding women in Islam?
 
Again you make ignorant claims and will not back them up. Please start a thread and prove women are property of men in Islam and any other claims you have regarding women in Islam?

If the woman is not property of the father, then the woman is the one who deceides to forgive or not, not the father.
Properties themselves have no decision-making ability on property abuse. Which is exactly what this law is indicating.
 
If the woman is not property of the father, then the woman is the one who deceides to forgive or not, not the father.
Properties themselves have no decision-making ability on property abuse. Which is exactly what this law is indicating.

We can discuss this & more . Don’t be scared again, start a thread & detail your views of women in Islam .
 
If the woman is not property of the father, then the woman is the one who deceides to forgive or not, not the father.
Properties themselves have no decision-making ability on property abuse. Which is exactly what this law is indicating.

Girls in the Uk cant marry before the age of 18 without consent, are they the property of their parents?
 
Girls in the Uk cant marry before the age of 18 without consent, are they the property of their parents?

There is a difference between parental supervision and property.
A crime against a minor in UK is still a crime against the minor. Not against her father. In this case, neither the father, nor the daughter has the right to revoke prosecution,as its the crown that prosecutes.

When person A has the right to forgive a crime against person B, it implies person B does not have basic power over self.
 
But even in the UK people dont report rape for whatever reason, so in practicality that is a form of forgiveness. Should people be forced be to report the rape.
Rape is under reported everywhere, not just in the UK. Not reporting does not equate to forgiveness. Some of the reasons cited by victims include lack of trust in the justice system, fear of reprisals, fear of their family finding out, fear of not being believed and several other reasons that have nothing to do with forgiveness. That said, the extent to which rape is underreported varies greatly between countries with more conservative societies showing lower rates while those that make it easy to report sexual assault, like Sweden, seeing more reported cases.

You proved my exactly about the fact its the implementation with witness intimidation being a problem, but even if people werent forgiven you would still have that.
Victim intimidation in a third world country is a fact of life, not something that can be addressed in the short or medium term. Your point that misuse is the only thing wrong with the law still has no merit since the biggest problem with the law is intent, not misuse. A law like this serves absolutely no purpose other than to provide a way out for rapists and murderers, and, as such, would be better off scrapped altogether since that is a much easier, more immediate, and plausible solution instead of waiting 90 years for marginal improvement in institutional performance that may not materialize at all.

The problem with any rape law is that in most cases, its one persons word against another, who do you believe.
Believe the evidence. If Punjab police of all people can find conclusive evidence of someone's guilt in a rape case, it should not be too hard for more competent agencies. Forensic science has largely taken out he said she said from rape so long as the correct procedures are used in a timely manner.
 
There are so many things in religion that people take in black and white without understanding the context. I am sure there would be some examples (both for poor and rich people) from Prophet's time which would help reform this law. I really don't believe that if two people went to Prophet (or any Khalifa) after committing a crime, they would ask rich person to pay blood money and poor to get punished just because he/she couldn't afford blood money.

Its hilarious how people push for reform and advancement but when challenged go back to the good old Prophet and Khalifa days.
 
I am not scared to substantiate anything. I have already provided my reasoning, which you seem to completely ignore.

You have only made a statement without anything to back it up. But this is expected.

How are women property?
 
There is a difference between parental supervision and property.
A crime against a minor in UK is still a crime against the minor. Not against her father. In this case, neither the father, nor the daughter has the right to revoke prosecution,as its the crown that prosecutes.

When person A has the right to forgive a crime against person B, it implies person B does not have basic power over self.

How can someone be old enough to have seex, work and pay taxes but need permission to get married.
 
Maybe his wife is. My wife is certainly not my property and nor is my daughter.

I would go further and say it's fair to suggest in most Pakistani or Muslim households the wife, daughter or mother have as much or more say than the men.
 
I would go further and say it's fair to suggest in most Pakistani or Muslim households the wife, daughter or mother have as much or more say than the men.

Totally agree, bar in finances, which is the area i have most of expertise in, its my "property" that decides. She even decided on which property to buy. I sometimes wish i could be like [MENTION=146517]Traveller55[/MENTION] and treat her like my property lol
 
You have only made a statement without anything to back it up. But this is expected.

How are women property?

I have presented far more evidence for my various positions than you have. That much, is self-evident from the posts itself.

Women are property because they themselves do not get the right to forgive crimes against them, their father/husband has the right. That is being property, as property itself has no right to judge its own property rights.
Its fairly straightforward.
 
I have presented far more evidence for my various positions than you have. That much, is self-evident from the posts itself.

Women are property because they themselves do not get the right to forgive crimes against them, their father/husband has the right. That is being property, as property itself has no right to judge its own property rights.
Its fairly straightforward.

lol .

Show me some textual evidence not just your silly little riddles.
 
lol .

Show me some textual evidence not just your silly little riddles.

implications are not textual evidence.

Saying ' a woman needs three rape witnesses' versus 'a man can testify against another man if he is raped' has ZERO textual reference about the fact that in this scenario, a woman has less rights than a man.
Yet, the implication is self-evident.
 
implications are not textual evidence.

Saying ' a woman needs three rape witnesses' versus 'a man can testify against another man if he is raped' has ZERO textual reference about the fact that in this scenario, a woman has less rights than a man.
Yet, the implication is self-evident.

Either you are very ignorant or a liar.

A woman does not need any witnesses .

A woman came to the Prophet(pbuh) and told him she was raped by a certain man, he was picked up and put to death. No witnesses are required.

Stop reading nonsense on hate sites, it will continue to make you look a fool.
 
Either you are very ignorant or a liar.

A woman does not need any witnesses .

A woman came to the Prophet(pbuh) and told him she was raped by a certain man, he was picked up and put to death. No witnesses are required.

Stop reading nonsense on hate sites, it will continue to make you look a fool.

You need to read better.
I gave an example of what is an implication.

I guess you are too insecure to see that it wasn't a comment against Islam but hey, i guess there isn't smoke without a fire.

There's a saying in bengali :
"Grandma: Thakur ghore ke ?
Chotto chele : ami to batasha khai ni!"

Translation:

" Grandma : who is in the room ?(where we keep pictures of our ancestors and give offerings to them sometimes)"
Little kid: " i didn't eat the sweets!!"
 
Its hilarious how people push for reform and advancement but when challenged go back to the good old Prophet and Khalifa days.

Not sure what you are on about bro, in a Muslim majority country people would never accept reforms unless examples from Prophet (or khilafat) are used. For me personally, i am fine with any reforms as long as proper logic is applied.

As an example, Council of Islamic Ideology (CII) in Pakistan declared DNA tests unacceptable as primary evidence in rape cases which doesn't make any sense to me, it was fine when this technology wasn't available back in the days but now it's a no-brainer.
 
Not sure what you are on about bro, in a Muslim majority country people would never accept reforms unless examples from Prophet (or khilafat) are used. For me personally, i am fine with any reforms as long as proper logic is applied.

As an example, Council of Islamic Ideology (CII) in Pakistan declared DNA tests unacceptable as primary evidence in rape cases which doesn't make any sense to me, it was fine when this technology wasn't available back in the days but now it's a no-brainer.

Agreed. Anything that helps to bring justice should be used.
 
Pakistan needs to become secular and get rid of rubbish laws.

That might be one for down the line, in practical terms, they could make an amendment that in cases where the law is abused, the courts have the right to overrule the pardon if it is felt that the rich are taking advantage of it.
 
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