First female Imam leading Friday prayer in India faces ‘death threat’

[hadi123]

Defying the age-old religious practice, a woman Imam for the first time in the history of India led Friday prayer in the southern state of Kerala, The Hindu reported.

34-year-old Jamida K, also known as ‘Jamida Teacher’ in her secluded village of Cherukode, Malappuram district, went against centuries of Sharia law but said she “did it knowing well the consequences it is going to have”.

The prayers were led for a mixed group of approximately 50 men and women at the central committee office of the Quran Sunnath Society which Jamida supports.

However, fundamentalists have threatened to eliminate Jamida. According to them, she “defiled the religion”.

The Quran Sunnath Society was a movement established by Chekannur Moulavi, a radical Muslim scholar, who was believed to be murdered after he mysteriously disappeared in 1993.

“We follow the [Holy] Quran. It addresses humankind as men and women, and does not discriminate between them. Both men and women have an equal role in religion,” asserted the woman prayer leader.

Speaking about leading Friday prayer, she said it was a male-dominated religious practice which needs to be challenged and she will continue to lead prayer alongside other women.

Moreover, she has been receiving a barrage of criticism on social media.

https://tribune.com.pk/story/162019...ading-friday-prayer-india-faces-death-threat/

 

[big_gamer007]

SO threatened her with death threats? Those scums should be put behind bars ASAP... Perfect opportunity for BJP and Hindutva groups to show solidarity with Muslim women and wreck havoc over these fake molvis.

 

[hafeezrocks]

A Woman leading a prayer of Males ? Indian Muslims should stop trying to make a mockery of religion.

 

[big_gamer007]

A Woman leading a prayer of Males ? Indian Muslims should stop trying to make a mockery of religion.

And who are you to tell them how they should follow their religion? Maybe you should stop making mockery of your own religion by posting such regressive feudal mindset..
[MENTION=133135]kaayal[/MENTION]

 

[cricketjoshila]

A Woman leading a prayer of Males ? Indian Muslims should stop trying to make a mockery of religion.

Mind your own country.

 

[SandyB]

Secularism and progress applies to everyone. I realize this is more of an attempt by my state to keep up the progressive image intact, but the reactions to this woman shows how much actions like these are needed now.

 

[King-Misbah]

And who are you to tell them how they should follow their religion? Maybe you should stop making mockery of your own religion by posting such regressive feudal mindset..
[MENTION=133135]kaayal[/MENTION]

There are set rules in all religions and this is contrary to set rules. Its nothing to do with a feudral mindset!

 

[big_gamer007]

There are set rules in all religions and this is contrary to set rules. Its nothing to do with a feudral mindset!

If that’s what your religion says it’s regressive and should be updated.. No offence to any Muslims here but if that is what Islam says then it needs to be upgraded.. Before people blast me or my post gets deleted by mods I would say the same thing if it was said in Hinduism.. Religion is more like guidelines and should constantly be upgraded as people and societies evolve.. When Islam came into being status of women was very servisile today it’s changed so it should be changed..

Having said that I know different people have different interpretations of Islam and I would like to hear from learned people like [MENTION=138980]TalentSpotterPk[/MENTION] what does Quran or Hadeeth say in this matter..

 

[Abdullah719]

If that’s what your religion says it’s regressive and should be updated.. No offence to any Muslims here but if that is what Islam says then it needs to be upgraded.. Before people blast me or my post gets deleted by mods I would say the same thing if it was said in Hinduism.. Religion is more like guidelines and should constantly be upgraded as people and societies evolve.. When Islam came into being status of women was very servisile today it’s changed so it should be changed..

Having said that I know different people have different interpretations of Islam and I would like to hear from learned people like [MENTION=138980]TalentSpotterPk[/MENTION] what does Quran or Hadeeth say in this matter..

If religion becomes changeable then the whole point of faith is defeated as faith means acceptance of God as a perfect creator; changes in religion amount to claiming that God did not know what was best. (Most) Muslims believe that the religion was perfected during the time of the Prophet (S).

Anyway, that is slightly off-topic and is more of a theological discussion.

The death threats in this case definitely do portray a regressive, feudal mindset and are based on ignorance.

Regarding the woman's claims about following the Qur'an exclusively, this is the position of quite a small minority of Muslims. It's not exclusive to India though, as anyone who has heard of Amina Wadud will attest to.

 

[Heisenberg]

A Woman leading a prayer of Males ? Indian Muslims should stop trying to make a mockery of religion.

So what's lacking in women? Rather mock a religion with outdated rules tbf

 

[JaDed]

I heard from someone that the prayer is ended wrongly, can someone confirm, hope they have at least made sure the video is not fabricated.

 

[JaDed]

If creator didn't want religion to change,why would he/she cause all other changes around us.

 

[boomboomcheema]

Many Indian Muslims follow a very diluted , corrupt and a Hinduized version of what they call as Islam, to appease the majority in their country. As if worshipping idols and celebrating Hindu festivals wasn't enough, now they are further corrupting Islam with their Secularist , feminist agenda.

 

[WhenSultansBowled]

Attention seeking #metoo -esque gimmet by this lady.

SJWs have something to tweet about for a few days

A female Imam : An oxymoron, if there ever was one.

 

[big_gamer007]

If religion becomes changeable then the whole point of faith is defeated as faith means acceptance of God as a perfect creator; changes in religion amount to claiming that God did not know what was best. (Most) Muslims believe that the religion was perfected during the time of the Prophet (S).

Anyway, that is slightly off-topic and is more of a theological discussion.

The death threats in this case definitely do portray a regressive, feudal mindset and are based on ignorance.

Regarding the woman's claims about following the Qur'an exclusively, this is the position of quite a small minority of Muslims. It's not exclusive to India though, as anyone who has heard of Amina Wadud will attest to.

Do you honestly believe God will differentiate between anyone? If someone says my God differentiates between anyone I would stop believing in that God period.. I know it’s about faith but if you believe in God then you have believe he gave us brains to use our mind and to think for ourselves.. Surely if you think rationally you would not differentiate between anyone?

I don’t think God ever differentiated between anyone it’s just that over the years the religion and mindset itself has become diluted.. I know Muslims are very stringent about not their religion/prophet and Holy book but I think they should understand that those times were different and to use their own logical thinking and change the practises.. I know it’s not possible but this is why I feel religion is a hinderance when it’s practised the way hardcore Muslims practise or hardcore any other religionists..

To me my God gave me a set of guidelines and brain which I use to decide what is wrong and what is right.. My God never taught me to differentiate anyone..

Anyways I know religious debates are of no use since You guys will never see the other side so no point debating just hope that when you face your God you can explain to him why you chose to differentiate amongst his creations.

 

[big_gamer007]

Many Indian Muslims follow a very diluted , corrupt and a Hinduized version of what they call as Islam, to appease the majority in their country. As if worshipping idols and celebrating Hindu festivals wasn't enough, now they are further corrupting Islam with their Secularist , feminist agenda.

Yes the real version is followed by ISIS and Taliban.. You are no one to judge anyone on how they practise their religion, you are just a follower not Allah so stop pretending to be Allah and passing judgement on how others follow their religion..

 

[Abdullah719]

Do you honestly believe God will differentiate between anyone? If someone says my God differentiates between anyone I would stop believing in that God period.. I know it’s about faith but if you believe in God then you have believe he gave us brains to use our mind and to think for ourselves.. Surely if you think rationally you would not differentiate between anyone?

I don’t think God ever differentiated between anyone it’s just that over the years the religion and mindset itself has become diluted.. I know Muslims are very stringent about not their religion/prophet and Holy book but I think they should understand that those times were different and to use their own logical thinking and change the practises.. I know it’s not possible but this is why I feel religion is a hinderance when it’s practised the way hardcore Muslims practise or hardcore any other religionists..

To me my God gave me a set of guidelines and brain which I use to decide what is wrong and what is right.. My God never taught me to differentiate anyone..

Anyways I know religious debates are of no use since You guys will never see the other side so no point debating just hope that when you face your God you can explain to him why you chose to differentiate amongst his creations.

Differentiate as in...?

Perhaps my comprehension is lacking here but I don't understand the gist of your post.

Anyways I know religious debates are of no use since You guys will never see the other side so no point debating

I am really not interested in a debate, to be honest as I am still just a student and my knowledge is lacking. But you made a point which I thought I should respond to.

 

[big_gamer007]

Differentiate as in...?

Perhaps my comprehension is lacking here but I don't understand the gist of your post.



I am really not interested in a debate, to be honest as I am still just a student and my knowledge is lacking. But you made a point which I thought I should respond to.

Isn’t it differentiation that a man can lead a prayer and a women can’t? Or did I understand this thread incorrectly?

 

[Abdullah719]

Isn’t it differentiation that a man can lead a prayer and a women can’t? Or did I understand this thread incorrectly?

But I didn't say anything about that therefore your reply was not really related to my initial post.

If someone comes up with a major alteration in a religious rite that has been performed in one way for generation after generation, they will be questioned and criticised. It's only natural. Like I said, I don't want to go into a deeper theological discussion about this which is what this topic requires. Religion is not based on personal feelings.

Death threats are stupid.

 

[King-Misbah]

Islam is applicable till the end of times. Muslims abide by Islam and accept this. Non-muslims are no one to dictate our set relgious rules.

 

[Heisenberg]

Islam is applicable till the end of times. Muslims abide by Islam and accept this. Non-muslims are no one to dictate our set relgious rules.

When is the end of times party?

 

[cricketjoshila]

Islam is applicable till the end of times. Muslims abide by Islam and accept this. Non-muslims are no one to dictate our set relgious rules.

Werent you the one who claimed that Indian muslims will cause civil war in India if India supports Israel in Jerusalem. What was the response of the Indian muslims on this forum?

Stop thinking that you speak for any Indian muslim.

 

[big_gamer007]

But I didn't say anything about that therefore your reply was not really related to my initial post.

If someone comes up with a major alteration in a religious rite that has been performed in one way for generation after generation, they will be questioned and criticised. It's only natural. Like I said, I don't want to go into a deeper theological discussion about this which is what this topic requires. Religion is not based on personal feelings.

Death threats are stupid.

Changes in religion would be criticised obviously however one should think logically and decide what changes are required.. I agree this is not the topic for discussing so let’s leave it that..

Hopefully the ones issuing death threats in this case will be sent to jail.. Not going to happen but one can only hope.

 

[King-Misbah]

Werent you the one who claimed that Indian muslims will cause civil war in India if India supports Israel in Jerusalem. What was the response of the Indian muslims on this forum?

Stop thinking that you speak for any Indian muslim.

No, i was not. Not having a female imam is a general Muslim view and something that has been verified by different Islamic sources and reputable scholars. So its not the case of speaking on behalf of Indian Muslims. We have rules; we follow them as Muslims.

 

[kaayal]

No, i was not. Not having a female imam is a general Muslim view and something that has been verified by different Islamic sources and reputable scholars. So its not the case of speaking on behalf of Indian Muslims. We have rules; we follow them as Muslims.

This happened in a society office, not in a mosque. Female imam are common in all houses. Don't your mother or sister lead the prayers in your home?

 

[kaayal]

Tbh, this Chekanoor moulvi group is despised by the rest of the sunnis here. For them instead of 5 namaz, there are only 3 namaz a day. There are many such basic differences which we feel unacceptable.

This female imam thing i guess was an attempt of attention seeking because many of us already does that in our homes and the offices. Still she didn't deserve to get these death threats or whatever abuse that is coming on her way.

 

[www787]

Werent you the one who claimed that Indian muslims will cause civil war in India if India supports Israel in Jerusalem. What was the response of the Indian muslims on this forum?

Stop thinking that you speak for any Indian muslim.

He isn’t speaking “for”, rather speaking “about” anyone is entitled to speak about anything, you have a right to listen or disregard but have no right to tell anyone not to speak.

I don’t know how things work in India but where I’m from we are always told to speak your mind and give your opinion.

 

[Pakistanian]

I don't see what the big deal with female imams. Live and ltet live, desis just live telling people how to live their life. This isn't a ln Islam problem, this is a desi culture problem

 

[DeadBall]

I don't see what the big deal with female imams. Live and ltet live, desis just live telling people how to live their life. This isn't a ln Islam problem, this is a desi culture problem

As you can clearly see from the posts above it is a big deal and a big NO NO. Islam is very rigid and the followers even more so (Other religions like Christianity are too but the followers have tuned out the nonsense due to education). You cannot adopt a live and let live strategy as the rules are set in stone and as you can see even the "educated" ones here can't bear to give any leeway. Nevermind the uneducated, brainwashed masses.

 

[Justcrazy]

She is a paid agent and nothing else.

In Islam women and Men are equal , not identical. These people are simply paid agents to create issues among Muslims. There is no way a woman can lead men in prayers in Islam.

 

[KingKhanWC]

If that’s what your religion says it’s regressive and should be updated.. No offence to any Muslims here but if that is what Islam says then it needs to be upgraded.. Before people blast me or my post gets deleted by mods I would say the same thing if it was said in Hinduism.. Religion is more like guidelines and should constantly be upgraded as people and societies evolve.. When Islam came into being status of women was very servisile today it’s changed so it should be changed..

Having said that I know different people have different interpretations of Islam and I would like to hear from learned people like [MENTION=138980]TalentSpotterPk[/MENTION] what does Quran or Hadeeth say in this matter..

Females can lead females but not males. How is this regressive? Women and men are separated in many areas of life.

Death threats are obviously wrong but its more than fair to criticise such Muslims as they are not following their religion. Similar cases have appeared in Europe too but these are not even 0.01% of the population.

 

[MRSN]

Tbh, this Chekanoor moulvi group is despised by the rest of the sunnis here. For them instead of 5 namaz, there are only 3 namaz a day. There are many such basic differences which we feel unacceptable.

This female imam thing i guess was an attempt of attention seeking because many of us already does that in our homes and the offices. Still she didn't deserve to get these death threats or whatever abuse that is coming on her way.

you lead men's prayer?

 

[Traveller55]

Females can lead females but not males. How is this regressive? Women and men are separated in many areas of life.

Death threats are obviously wrong but its more than fair to criticise such Muslims as they are not following their religion. Similar cases have appeared in Europe too but these are not even 0.01% of the population.

Because if males can lead both females and males but females can only lead females, it means females have less rights and thus, regressive.

I havn't been muslim for over 3 decades now, so my memory is a bit patchy- care to point out where in the Koran it says that females cannot lead men in prayer ?

it is fairly common for one set of muslims to say that another set of muslims are not real muslims and following the religion properly. So those comments have no value, except for displaying your own superiorism.

The definition of a muslim is pretty simple - accept Allah, recite Shahadah and don't contravene the Koran. As long as people do that, they are muslims.

 

[Abdullah719]

The definition of a muslim is pretty simple - accept Allah, recite Shahadah and don't contravene the Koran. As long as people do that, they are muslims.

Muslims who strictly follow the Qur'an (only) are very small in number.

There are a few reasons for that. It's repeatedly stated in the Qur'an to 'follow the Prophet' as well; how do you follow him without acknowledging the Hadith? The Hadith/Sunnah contain much of the guidance about how to pray, rules for Zakat, rituals during Hajj etc.; without it, how does one go about fulfilling these major pillars of the religion?

It's not a common view and is not really supported by any evidence which is why these people are rarely taken seriously.

In the original article from 'The Hindu', it was stated that no prominent Muslims scholars or organisations have said anything about this 'female Imam'. They obviously don't take it seriously or think it's worth responding to. The 'death threats' etc. are coming from online trolls of which there are many.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Because if males can lead both females and males but females can only lead females, it means females have less rights and thus, regressive.

I havn't been muslim for over 3 decades now, so my memory is a bit patchy- care to point out where in the Koran it says that females cannot lead men in prayer ?

it is fairly common for one set of muslims to say that another set of muslims are not real muslims and following the religion properly. So those comments have no value, except for displaying your own superiorism.

The definition of a muslim is pretty simple - accept Allah, recite Shahadah and don't contravene the Koran. As long as people do that, they are muslims.

There is many things a man cannot do but a woman can. E.g A woman has the right to keep all of her earnings but a man does not have this right and must give his to his family/wife . Does this mean men are lesser than woman in Islam? It's also regressive in your opinion?

In such an issue, there is no need to provide textual evidence as it's not even a debatable issue in Islam across almost every sect or school of thought. Those who allow a woman to lead men are probably not more than a few thousand people worldwide out of nearly 1.8 billion.

I never suggested a woman leading a prayer will make her a non-Muslim.

 

[Traveller55]

Muslims who strictly follow the Qur'an (only) are very small in number.

There are a few reasons for that. It's repeatedly stated in the Qur'an to 'follow the Prophet' as well; how do you follow him without acknowledging the Hadith? The Hadith/Sunnah contain much of the guidance about how to pray, rules for Zakat, rituals during Hajj etc.; without it, how does one go about fulfilling these major pillars of the religion?

It's not a common view and is not really supported by any evidence which is why these people are rarely taken seriously.

In the original article from 'The Hindu', it was stated that no prominent Muslims scholars or organisations have said anything about this 'female Imam'. They obviously don't take it seriously or think it's worth responding to. The 'death threats' etc. are coming from online trolls of which there are many.

It all depends on whether you mean the instruction to follow the prophet was eternal or was for the generation of the prophet only.

Its pretty contradictory for the Koran, to claim that it is the ONLY perfect book (it isn't but thats beside the point) and it should be followed above all, without question, then say 'follow the prophet' (for all eternity) but not make the Hadiths equally infallible and unchanged as itself.

Thats basically saying ' you must follow this book- which is from God and is perfect and unchanged...but hey, also follow that book that a bunch of people will write and change over time'....

Hence the few muslims who follow the Koran only, argue that the directive to follow the Prophet was meant in the spirit of following his living example- ie, directed to the generation of the muslims who were with him and remember his actual, living memory.

As for calculation of Zakat, the actual number can vary, as the Koran itself does not spell out the number- nor the type of economy that falls under Zakat's perogative.

 

[Traveller55]

There is many things a man cannot do but a woman can. E.g A woman has the right to keep all of her earnings but a man does not have this right and must give his to his family/wife . Does this mean men are lesser than woman in Islam? It's also regressive in your opinion?

Show us please, where in the Koran it says that the man must give all his earning to his family/wife.

And yes, if its true, then in this instance, men are discriminated against in Islam. Overall, the discrimination is against women, because women are treated inferior in much more instances than men are in the book.

In such an issue, there is no need to provide textual evidence as it's not even a debatable issue in Islam across almost every sect or school of thought. Those who allow a woman to lead men are probably not more than a few thousand people worldwide out of nearly 1.8 billion.

I never suggested a woman leading a prayer will make her a non-Muslim.

So if there is no reason to present evidence because there is consensus, you are basically saying that populism makes it correct- which is fundamentally at odds with 'truth is not subject to populism but empiric and from God' as expounded many, many times in the Koran.

if you don't need evidence to uphold a practice, but simply see it as 'all people do it', that just makes you a mindless sheep.

 

[akki]

There is many things a man cannot do but a woman can. E.g A woman has the right to keep all of her earnings but a man does not have this right and must give his to his family/wife . Does this mean men are lesser than woman in Islam? It's also regressive in your opinion?

In such an issue, there is no need to provide textual evidence as it's not even a debatable issue in Islam across almost every sect or school of thought. Those who allow a woman to lead men are probably not more than a few thousand people worldwide out of nearly 1.8 billion.

I never suggested a woman leading a prayer will make her a non-Muslim.

Women has the right to keep all her earnings while man does not have the right?? What the hell is this thing ??Enough internet for today I guess.Really common sense takes back seat when religion comes in. All religions have these sort of people but some really have very in fact very large proportion of this.

 

[Abdullah719]

It all depends on whether you mean the instruction to follow the prophet was eternal or was for the generation of the prophet only.

Its pretty contradictory for the Koran, to claim that it is the ONLY perfect book (it isn't but thats beside the point) and it should be followed above all, without question, then say 'follow the prophet' (for all eternity) but not make the Hadiths equally infallible and unchanged as itself.

Thats basically saying ' you must follow this book- which is from God and is perfect and unchanged...but hey, also follow that book that a bunch of people will write and change over time'....

Hence the few muslims who follow the Koran only, argue that the directive to follow the Prophet was meant in the spirit of following his living example- ie, directed to the generation of the muslims who were with him and remember his actual, living memory.

As for calculation of Zakat, the actual number can vary, as the Koran itself does not spell out the number- nor the type of economy that falls under Zakat's perogative.

All the Hadith are not infallible. There is a whole study of Hadith which has been conducted over hundreds of years to weed out the inauthentic ones.

There is a reason why people who follow only the Qur'an are in a very small minority.

 

[Abdullah719]

Women has the right to keep all her earnings while man does not have the right?? What the hell is this thing ??Enough internet for today I guess.Really common sense takes back seat when religion comes in. All religions have these sort of people but some really have very in fact very large proportion of this.

That is worded incorrectly by KKWC. A man is not obligated to give all his earnings to his wife but he is obligated to provide for his family whereas there is no such obligation on the woman.

 

[Major]

soo much arguing in this thread, and not a single person could had bothered to post a reference from the quran or hadith that talks about who should lead the prayer.

btw do female popes exist? just asking

 

[Abdullah719]

soo much arguing in this thread, and not a single person could had bothered to post a reference from the quran or hadith that talks about who should lead the prayer.

btw do female popes exist? just asking

From the Hadith, it's pretty clear. I didn't think it needs explaining.

The point of contention is that there is a small group of Muslims who reject the Sunnah/Hadith which forms the theological basis for their innovations.

 

[Traveller55]

All the Hadith are not infallible. There is a whole study of Hadith which has been conducted over hundreds of years to weed out the inauthentic ones.

A fool's quest. Almost all the hadiths were written after the death of Mohammed, almost all the hadiths have numerous contradictory versions and coupled with very little ancillary information from Arabia of 600s AD ( its not like we have heaps and heaps of info on them like we do on the Greeks or the Romans), its a fool's quest to try and figure out which one is authentic and which one is not.

It simply boils down to how one interprets the Koran and uses it as a guide to contrast with the Hadiths in question, thats all.

There is a reason why people who follow only the Qur'an are in a very small minority.

The reason is, most religious people- of ALL religion- are traditionalists and not inclined to question their religious traditions.

 

[Traveller55]

That is worded incorrectly by KKWC. A man is not obligated to give all his earnings to his wife but he is obligated to provide for his family whereas there is no such obligation on the woman.

Because the Koran assumes that women's preffered role is unemployed and in the house, not vice-versa.

 

[akki]

That is worded incorrectly by KKWC. A man is not obligated to give all his earnings to his wife but he is obligated to provide for his family whereas there is no such obligation on the woman.

Man its not like this. It's all about responsibility and the roles whoever wants to take in the family.Men can also take care of house if he wants to and if his ego allows him logically and women can provide for family. There is nothing wrong in this. What harm it causes ? Humanity is the only religion and common sense is the only intelligence....

 

[Traveller55]

From the Hadith, it's pretty clear. I didn't think it needs explaining.

The point of contention is that there is a small group of Muslims who reject the Sunnah/Hadith which forms the theological basis for their innovations.

Most educated and young muslims in the west i've come across follow the Koran only. There are a few Imams i've come across too (and they are young, as in under-40) who are proponents of 'Koran only' club.

This is how they can disassociate islam from some of the sordid allegations made against the prophet based on the hadiths themselves.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Show us please, where in the Koran it says that the man must give all his earning to his family/wife.

And yes, if its true, then in this instance, men are discriminated against in Islam. Overall, the discrimination is against women, because women are treated inferior in much more instances than men are in the book.

I never said men must give ALL of their earnings and they dont. So I cant show you something which I never said and is not true.

So men are discriminated against but the same religion discriminates mostly against women? lol What went wrong here?

Show us some evidence to show women are INFERIOR to men?

So if there is no reason to present evidence because there is consensus, you are basically saying that populism makes it correct- which is fundamentally at odds with 'truth is not subject to populism but empiric and from God' as expounded many, many times in the Koran.

if you don't need evidence to uphold a practice, but simply see it as 'all people do it', that just makes you a mindless sheep.

It's not debatable at all. Just because a few thousand people do such a practice doesn't mean there is a requirement to prove them wrong as their numbers are so low. Also these same people believe in other strange ideas such as only praying 3 times instead of 5 or in some places homosexuality is fine, the hadiths are irrelevant etc.

 

[Abdullah719]

Man its not like this. It's all about responsibility and the roles whoever wants to take in the family.Men can also take care of house if he wants to and if his ego allows him logically and women can provide for family. There is nothing wrong in this. What harm it causes ? Humanity is the only religion and common sense is the only intelligence....

Key word is obligation.

 

[KingKhanWC]

That is worded incorrectly by KKWC. A man is not obligated to give all his earnings to his wife but he is obligated to provide for his family whereas there is no such obligation on the woman.

I never said ALL.

 

[Abdullah719]

A fool's quest. Almost all the hadiths were written after the death of Mohammed, almost all the hadiths have numerous contradictory versions and coupled with very little ancillary information from Arabia of 600s AD ( its not like we have heaps and heaps of info on them like we do on the Greeks or the Romans), its a fool's quest to try and figure out which one is authentic and which one is not.

Sorry but you can't discredit a science with one paragraph of anecdotes.

 

[Abdullah719]

I never said ALL.

I know that wasn't the intention but that's what it may have been interpreted to mean.

 

[Traveller55]

Sorry but you can't discredit a science with one paragraph of anecdotes.

Its not a science. There is nothing 'empiric' about it. Studying something doesn't make the approach scientific.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Women has the right to keep all her earnings while man does not have the right?? What the hell is this thing ??Enough internet for today I guess.Really common sense takes back seat when religion comes in. All religions have these sort of people but some really have very in fact very large proportion of this.

Women get pregnant, men dont. They are able to continue to work while women cant, so the husband must support the family, its a obligation. Woman traditionally take care of the children too. Recent research has shown it's better for a mother to stay with the child as much as she can and for as long as she can after birth. A woman can support the family too but isnt obliged.

I dont know where you get your common sense from.

 

[Traveller55]

I never said men must give ALL of their earnings and they dont. So I cant show you something which I never said and is not true.

So men are discriminated against but the same religion discriminates mostly against women? lol What went wrong here?

Nothing went wrong there. if a religion has 10 instances of discriminating against men and 100 instances of discriminating against women, it means that the said religion discriminates against women overall, but in specific cases, the discrimination can be against men too. Fairly simple.

Show us some evidence to show women are INFERIOR to men?

There's plenty and i am sure if i started quoting how the Koran treats women inferior to men overall, the ban-hammer will be brought down.

It's not debatable at all. Just because a few thousand people do such a practice doesn't mean there is a requirement to prove them wrong as their numbers are so low. Also these same people believe in other strange ideas such as only praying 3 times instead of 5 or in some places homosexuality is fine, the hadiths are irrelevant etc.

If the objective is truth, then even ONE questioning voice deserves to be answered. Truth is not privvy to populism, truth is empiric and stands on its own. Its lies that need popular, mass support to propagate itself and hide behind.
When you say there is consensus, the argument you are making is 'its popular'. Not whether its right or wrong.

 

[Abdullah719]

Most educated and young muslims in the west i've come across follow the Koran only. There are a few Imams i've come across too (and they are young, as in under-40) who are proponents of 'Koran only' club.

This is how they can disassociate islam from some of the sordid allegations made against the prophet based on the hadiths themselves.

Yes, I am aware of this tendency. Still, the fact remains that they are in a tiny minority and do not have a solid basis for their claims. Most contemporary scholars stick to traditional methods.

 

[Abdullah719]

Its not a science. There is nothing 'empiric' about it. Studying something doesn't make the approach scientific.

You can replace the word 'science' with the words 'Hadith studies' or ʻilm al-ḥadith. Semantics.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Nothing went wrong there. if a religion has 10 instances of discriminating against men and 100 instances of discriminating against women, it means that the said religion discriminates against women overall, but in specific cases, the discrimination can be against men too. Fairly simple.


There's plenty and i am sure if i started quoting how the Koran treats women inferior to men overall, the ban-hammer will be brought down.

Unfortunately for you this is not the case and you are welcome to back up your claim. Bring your hammer , just hope it doesnt end up landing on your head.

If the objective is truth, then even ONE questioning voice deserves to be answered. Truth is not privvy to populism, truth is empiric and stands on its own. Its lies that need popular, mass support to propagate itself and hide behind.
When you say there is consensus, the argument you are making is 'its popular'. Not whether its right or wrong.

There is evidence but I dont feel the need to show it when the issue is not debated in any significant number and you missed I added these 'sects' do many other practices differently, so they dont have any credibility.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Most educated and young muslims in the west i've come across follow the Koran only. There are a few Imams i've come across too (and they are young, as in under-40) who are proponents of 'Koran only' club.

This is how they can disassociate islam from some of the sordid allegations made against the prophet based on the hadiths themselves.

Where was this? How long did you stay in the west and how many did you meet? I think your making up stories here.

 

[Traveller55]

Yes, I am aware of this tendency. Still, the fact remains that they are in a tiny minority and do not have a solid basis for their claims. Most contemporary scholars stick to traditional methods.

If you are aware of them, then you should realize, that this is the new face of Islam, atleast, in the west.
Because we are old and from the past and its the kids who will carry on when we die. And the idea of 'Koran only' is most popular amongst the youth, of all demogaphics.

This means, in the future, atleast in the west, the number of muslims who follow the Hadiths will sharply decline.

And its pretty simple to see why- muslims don't like their prophet to be labelled in sordid ways. Yet the hadith is pretty clear on the sordid actions. But the Hadiths are not infallible and perfect (to the muslims) like the Koran is. So by chopping away the Hadiths, they get to reject the sordid allegations against the prophet as 'made up by corrupt men centuries later'.

 

[Traveller55]

Where was this? How long did you stay in the west and how many did you meet? I think your making up stories here.

I live in the west and unless you are 30+, i have been living in the west for longer than you are alive.
'The west' does not just mean Bradford or the tiny little british isles only.

The person i addressed it to, does not challenge this obvious observation and has actually accepted it as a growing trend. So kindly stay out of the way of your 'buzurg' when they are having a serious chat.

 

[Traveller55]

You can replace the word 'science' with the words 'Hadith studies' or ʻilm al-ḥadith. Semantics.

Not semantics, very big difference. As big a difference as studying Physics vs History.
Science is empiric and logic driven.
Ilm al-hadith, is similar to history : ultimately rests on the opinion of people who've read the subject matter, nothing more.

 

[Abdullah719]

If you are aware of them, then you should realize, that this is the new face of Islam, atleast, in the west.
Because we are old and from the past and its the kids who will carry on when we die. And the idea of 'Koran only' is most popular amongst the youth, of all demogaphics.

This means, in the future, atleast in the west, the number of muslims who follow the Hadiths will sharply decline.

And its pretty simple to see why- muslims don't like their prophet to be labelled in sordid ways. Yet the hadith is pretty clear on the sordid actions. But the Hadiths are not infallible and perfect (to the muslims) like the Koran is. So by chopping away the Hadiths, they get to reject the sordid allegations against the prophet as 'made up by corrupt men centuries later'.

The number of young Western Muslims who ascribe to this philosophy may be on the rise. But the number of Muslims worldwide who don't ascribe to it is increasing at a far higher rate.

I am not interested in buzzwords about corrupt men, etc. The Qur'an was conveyed through humans as well and wasn't compiled until after the Prophet (S) died as well so they may as well reject that too.

 

[KingKhanWC]

I live in the west and unless you are 30+, i have been living in the west for longer than you are alive.
'The west' does not just mean Bradford or the tiny little british isles only.

The person i addressed it to, does not challenge this obvious observation and has actually accepted it as a growing trend. So kindly stay out of the way of your 'buzurg' when they are having a serious chat.

lol. There are no rules on here to only respond to certain posts. You can be challenged on any post by any poster at any time.

Good then you shouldn't have an issue telling me where and how many did you meet?

 

[Traveller55]

The number of young Western Muslims who ascribe to this philosophy may be on the rise. But the number of Muslims worldwide who don't ascribe to it is increasing at a far higher rate.

I am not interested in buzzwords about corrupt men, etc. The Qur'an was conveyed through humans as well and wasn't compiled until after the Prophet (S) died as well so they may as well reject that too.

Well from the Muslim POV, Koran is the book that claims to be unchanged and divine, not all the other books. So its easy to reject the other books and hold on to the Koran only.

 

[Traveller55]

lol. There are no rules on here to only respond to certain posts. You can be challenged on any post by any poster at any time.

Good then you shouldn't have an issue telling me where and how many did you meet?

Many. Enough to de-convert a few. I am not running around keeping a tally of how many people of each and every ideology i've met so far, so kindly keep moronic questions to a minimum.

Still looking for evidence from the Koran where it says women can't lead men......the time i've been here, you have not presented even 1 instance of evidence to back up anything you say.

 

[akki]

Women get pregnant, men dont. They are able to continue to work while women cant, so the husband must support the family, its a obligation. Woman traditionally take care of the children too. Recent research has shown it's better for a mother to stay with the child as much as she can and for as long as she can after birth. A woman can support the family too but isnt obliged.

I dont know where you get your common sense from.

Dude you don't need to give zakir nail sort of examples. Like comparing apples with oranges. Women getting pregnant is nature whereas earnings has nothing to do with that.
Plus one ridiculous zakir nail sort of example I will give just for you...A lion doesn't get pregnant still lioness do the most of the hunting and lions sleeps about 18 hours. Loll

 

[KingKhanWC]

Many. Enough to de-convert a few. I am not running around keeping a tally of how many people of each and every ideology i've met so far, so kindly keep moronic questions to a minimum.

Still looking for evidence from the Koran where it says women can't lead men......the time i've been here, you have not presented even 1 instance of evidence to back up anything you say.

Many could mean 20 or 2 million. Is it in the hundreds or thousands and where? Which town , which mosque. I feel your'e making this up.

Who said the evidence has to come from the Quran?

 

[Abdullah719]

I live in the west and unless you are 30+, i have been living in the west for longer than you are alive.
'The west' does not just mean Bradford or the tiny little british isles only.

The person i addressed it to, does not challenge this obvious observation and has actually accepted it as a growing trend. So kindly stay out of the way of your 'buzurg' when they are having a serious chat.

It's a growing trend with regards to the number of followers, not in terms of as an overall proportion of Muslims.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Dude you don't need to give zakir nail sort of examples. Like comparing apples with oranges. Women getting pregnant is nature whereas earnings has nothing to do with that.
Plus one ridiculous zakir nail sort of example I will give just for you...A lion doesn't get pregnant still lioness do the most of the hunting and lions sleeps about 18 hours. Loll

Did you just compare lions with humans? lol Lions also kill others cubs to take over the pride.

I dont watch Zakir Naik, it's common sense which you dont have.

 

[Traveller55]

Many could mean 20 or 2 million. Is it in the hundreds or thousands and where? Which town , which mosque. I feel your'e making this up.

You are free to feel whatever way you wish to. I am sure you are aware that when a person has moved around for 30 years, it means they've come across many people of their (former) faith in their religious buildings. Or maybe you are the one guy who never left home and goes to the same bake-shop, pizza-shop and mosque for your whole life.

Who said the evidence has to come from the Quran?

Is there evidence in the Koran or not- yes or no only please.

 

[ataullah]

Since the dawn of Islam for over 1400 years the ummah is unanimous that a woman can't lead men in prayer.
For my fellow pp members id like to quote a few Ahadirh regarding this ruling.

1)Bukhaari (684) and Muslim (421) narrated from Sahl ibn Sa’d al-Saa’idi that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, “Whoever notices anything amiss during the prayer, let him say tasbeeh, for if he does so it will be noticed; and clapping is only for women.”

Haafiz ibn e hajar said:

It is as if women are not allowed to say tasbeeh because they are enjoined to keep their voices low in prayer at all times, because of the fear of fitnah.

If women are forbidden to alert the imam by speaking if he makes a mistake, and should clap instead, so that they will not raise their voice in the presence of men, then how can it be allowed for a woman to lead them in prayer and deliver a khutbah to them?


2) According to the actions of the Muslims throughout fourteen hundred years, no woman should be allowed to men in prayer.

Badaa’i’ al-Sanaa’i’, 2/289

Whoever goes against this is following a path other than that of the believers. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And whoever contradicts and opposes the Messenger (Muhammad) after the right path has been shown clearly to him, and follows other than the believers’ way, We shall keep him in the path he has chosen, and burn him in Hell what an evil destination!”

[al-Nisa’ 4:115]

3) Bukhaari (4425) narrated that Abu Bakrah (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “No people will ever succeed who appoint a woman as their leader.”

This hadeeth indicates that it is not permissible for a woman to hold a position of public authority, and leading the prayers is a position of public authority.

There are many proofs but these 3 should suffice.

The people supporting the women leading prayer are either ignorant regarding the Islamic rulings or apostates. I ask what was the purpose of starting this thread???

For those members saying that Islam needs updating i will say that the teachings of beloved prophet Mohammed SAW are till the end of times just like his book the Qur'an is till the end of time. All previous scriptures were altered because they were for a certain nation and period but the prophet SAW is the last prophet and his teachings are till the day of judgement. He perfected the Deen and is the only person to fulfill his mission in the world. No alterations are needed and no one can alter he SAW's teaching and his blessed book. Even a dot/nuqta has not been emitted.

For those people who are giving death threats to the women, this is against the teachings of islam. Islam is a religion of peace and was spread with love and akhlaq. Reading the beautiful life of huzoor SAW will make this clear.

 

[ataullah]

Many. Enough to de-convert a few. I am not running around keeping a tally of how many people of each and every ideology i've met so far, so kindly keep moronic questions to a minimum.

Still looking for evidence from the Koran where it says women can't lead men......the time i've been here, you have not presented even 1 instance of evidence to back up anything you say.

Can u give evidence from prophets time, sahabah, tabieen or tabe tabieen where a woman led men in prayer???

 

[akki]

Did you just compare lions with humans? lol Lions also kill others cubs to take over the pride.

I dont watch Zakir Naik, it's common sense which you dont have.

You didn't get it. Try again. Just because I watched him for fun it doesn't mean I took any single of his word as truth. I said that this sort of examples you are giving. I obviously doesn't mean to compare lion with human.

 

[Abdullah719]

Well from the Muslim POV, Koran is the book that claims to be unchanged and divine, not all the other books. So its easy to reject the other books and hold on to the Koran only.

The Qur'an is unchanged and divine and it says to obey the messenger.

There is no evidence to back up the claim that this was directed at Muslims of 600 CE only.

 

[Traveller55]

Since the dawn of Islam for over 1400 years the ummah is unanimous that a woman can't lead men in prayer.
For my fellow pp members id like to quote a few Ahadirh regarding this ruling.

1)Bukhaari (684) and Muslim (421) narrated from Sahl ibn Sa’d al-Saa’idi that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, “Whoever notices anything amiss during the prayer, let him say tasbeeh, for if he does so it will be noticed; and clapping is only for women.”

Haafiz ibn e hajar said:

It is as if women are not allowed to say tasbeeh because they are enjoined to keep their voices low in prayer at all times, because of the fear of fitnah.

If women are forbidden to alert the imam by speaking if he makes a mistake, and should clap instead, so that they will not raise their voice in the presence of men, then how can it be allowed for a woman to lead them in prayer and deliver a khutbah to them?


2) According to the actions of the Muslims throughout fourteen hundred years, no woman should be allowed to men in prayer.

Badaa’i’ al-Sanaa’i’, 2/289

Whoever goes against this is following a path other than that of the believers. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And whoever contradicts and opposes the Messenger (Muhammad) after the right path has been shown clearly to him, and follows other than the believers’ way, We shall keep him in the path he has chosen, and burn him in Hell what an evil destination!”

[al-Nisa’ 4:115]

3) Bukhaari (4425) narrated that Abu Bakrah (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “No people will ever succeed who appoint a woman as their leader.”

This hadeeth indicates that it is not permissible for a woman to hold a position of public authority, and leading the prayers is a position of public authority.

There are many proofs but these 3 should suffice.

The people supporting the women leading prayer are either ignorant regarding the Islamic rulings or apostates. I ask what was the purpose of starting this thread???

For those members saying that Islam needs updating i will say that the teachings of beloved prophet Mohammed SAW are till the end of times just like his book the Qur'an is till the end of time. All previous scriptures were altered because they were for a certain nation and period but the prophet SAW is the last prophet and his teachings are till the day of judgement. He perfected the Deen and is the only person to fulfill his mission in the world. No alterations are needed and no one can alter he SAW's teaching and his blessed book. Even a dot/nuqta has not been emitted.

For those people who are giving death threats to the women, this is against the teachings of islam. Islam is a religion of peace and was spread with love and akhlaq. Reading the beautiful life of huzoor SAW will make this clear.

The bolded part, is blashpemy in Islam, technically. In Islam, Koran is the ONLY thing for end of time and unchanged- the Koran itself says so. So putting the Hadiths as 'till end of time and unchanged' is actually refuting the claims in the koran itself.

Your hadiths are also altered and there are numerous versions of every single hadith out there, with some pretty ridiculous claims in some of them that are pure fiction.

 

[Abdullah719]

Can u give evidence from prophets time, sahabah, tabieen or tabe tabieen where a woman led men in prayer???

All this doesn't matter as apparently all of the Muslims until the last couple of centuries were misguided and Quranists are the only ones who have the right idea of Islam.

 

[Traveller55]

The Qur'an is unchanged and divine and it says to obey the messenger.

There is no evidence to back up the claim that this was directed at Muslims of 600 CE only.

There is no evidence to suggest that it was applicable after the messenger is dead. As you said, the Koran said to obey the messenger. Not 'obey what is written about the messengers life after he is dead'.

If your mother says 'obey your father' - it means obey your father, till he is dead. Not 'after your father is dead, open his diary and obey its instructions'.

That much, is common sense and implied.

 

[KingKhanWC]

You are free to feel whatever way you wish to. I am sure you are aware that when a person has moved around for 30 years, it means they've come across many people of their (former) faith in their religious buildings. Or maybe you are the one guy who never left home and goes to the same bake-shop, pizza-shop and mosque for your whole life.

There aren't many Quran only Muslims in the west at all. I only visit Bengali restaurants.

Is there evidence in the Koran or not- yes or no only please.

The evidence is in the sunnah of the Prophet(pbuh) he was sent to teach us how to pray etc. Someone has posted some references for you, feel free to discuss them.

 

[ataullah]

The bolded part, is blashpemy in Islam, technically. In Islam, Koran is the ONLY thing for end of time and unchanged- the Koran itself says so. So putting the Hadiths as 'till end of time and unchanged' is actually refuting the claims in the koran itself.

Your hadiths are also altered and there are numerous versions of every single hadith out there, with some pretty ridiculous claims in some of them that are pure fiction.

I didn't say hadith is unchanged. There's a difference

 

[Traveller55]

Can u give evidence from prophets time, sahabah, tabieen or tabe tabieen where a woman led men in prayer???

Nope, because it wasn't the case . But such a case, is a cultural one, not strictly Koranic one, as far as i know.