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Forget fast growth, India is barely holding on - Just look at the data

Mian

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Those of us in our sixties, including our prime minister, will remember the goli soda. You used a little wooden gizmo to push in a marble stuck in the mouth of a bottle and guzzled the sweet, fizzy drink with the marble dancing around inside. Then you felt full and happy. But it was mostly gas. <br> <br> It’s feeling a lot like that these days, and PM Narendra Modi must have a tough time keeping our spirits up. Every few days there is a saccharine shot, but let’s face it – we are in the doldrums. <br> <br> Demonetisation and the Goods and Services Tax (GST) have both extracted an economic price from nearly every Indian. The drumbeat of dismal data continues. <br> <br> The Index of Industrial Production rose just 1.2% in July compared with a 5.2% rise in July 2016. IIP for the manufacturing sector inched up only 0.1% in July, compared with a rise of 6.3% in July 2016. <br> <br> Consumer price inflation rose by 3.36% in August, up sharply from 2.36% in July and a cheering low of 1.54% in June, driven mainly by higher food and fuel prices. Since ‘dynamic’ daily pricing for petrol and diesel was introduced in June, prices have shot up. Modi’s government has hiked excise duties on petrol and diesel several times; although the price of Brent crude is half what it was in 2014, and the rupee has been stable, even appreciating against the dollar, the consumer is paying more and more. Petroleum minister Dharmendra Pradhan says the extra revenue will help the government spend more on roads, irrigation and other infrastructure. <br> <br> Where else can the government look for more revenue? Despite the periodic sugar-highs we get from news of how successful demonetisation was in combating black money and driving more taxpayers into the arms of the friendly neighbourhood inspector, direct tax collections for the period April-August were up, net of refunds, just 17.5% year-on-year, compared with a year-on-year rise of 15% in April-August 2016. <br> <br> The corresponding data for indirect taxes has not been published so far. By all accounts, two and a half months after it was introduced, GST continues to cause confusion and chaos. Rules are revised with metronomic regularity. Major carmakers have already announced they are cycling back on investment plans in the face of frequent changes in GST rates. At its 21st meeting on Sept.9, the GST Council of finance ministers and officials announced a fresh batch of officialese, including such gems as: “Presently, a job worker making inter-state taxable supply of job work service is not eligible for threshold exemption of Rs 20 lakhs (Rs 10 lakhs in special category states except J&K) and is liable for registration. It has been decided to exempt those job workers from obtaining registration who are making inter-state taxable supply of job work service to a registered person as long as the goods move under the cover of an e-way bill, irrespective of the value of the consignment. This exemption will not be available to job work in relation to jewellery, goldsmiths’ and silversmiths’ wares as covered under Chapter 71 which do not require e-way bill.” <br> <br> Not for the first time, the GST Council extended the deadlines for filing returns. It set up a committee to look into exporters’ grievances. And it set up a ministerial group to look urgently into the glitches bedevilling the GST Network, the software backbone. Infosys, the main GSTN software vendor, was given time until end-October to sort things out. “It is like building a ship while sailing,” Bihar’s deputy chief minister Sushil Modi said. <br> <br> The government cannot look to taxation as the main source of its revenue, so long as private-sector capital formation and demand remain sluggish. <br> <br> Faced with stasis, the government is slipping into the same trap as its predecessor: it is speeding up spending on infrastructure in the hope that this will create more jobs and demand in the economy. By July, however, finance minister Arun Jaitley had already spent 92.4% of the full year’s budgeted expenditure, placing his pledge to rein in the fiscal deficit at 3.2% of GDP in grave peril. The government cannot sustain this level of stimulus for very long, unless the private sector rediscovers its animal spirits and revives investment. <br> <br> In a speech early this year at the National Council for Applied Economic Research, eminent economist Vijay Kelkar said: “Public expenditure is grounded in taxation, and taxation is a considerable use of coercion. For this reason, we should be very careful when spending public money.” <br> <br> Do you hear the rising murmur of unease in the background over jobless growth? An A.T. Kearney global survey published this week said India continues to top 55 countries in its Global Service Location Index in the outsourcing industry. But it warned that over the next five years, India could lose 250,000 business process outsourcing (BPO) jobs to automation. Currently India hosts 200 multinationals and has 1.1 million BPO jobs. BPO workers need to acquire new skills urgently. <br> <br> PM Modi and Jaitley are brainstorming with advisers to map a path out of this morass, and on Wednesday Jaitley promised steps to revive growth as soon as Modi signed off on them. In his January lecture, Kelkar said: “Government interventions always have unintended consequences. <br> <br> Government intervention interferes with personal freedom. If we can get something done using less coercion, that is always better. The way to find the lowest use of coercive force is to understand the source of the market failure.” <br> <br> That makes sense at a macro-economic level. The reality is that Modi needs to keep the fizz from going flat in the soda bottle. <br> <br> He had good opportunities last fortnight. On Sept.14 he and Japanese PM Shinzo Abe launched work on the Ahmedabad-Mumbai bullet train project, which will be speeded up to meet Modi’s August 2022 deadline for a ‘New India’. <br> <br> Sure, the new train will create jobs and stimulate economic activity in both cities, as well as presage more such projects elsewhere in the country. Japan’s $13.5-billion soft loan, repayable over 50 years, makes it virtually free, Modi boasted – glossing over the currency fluctuations and inflation differentials that could make it more expensive, and ignoring the crisis in accident-prone Indian Railways. <br> <br> Three days later, on his birthday, Modi returned to Gujarat to dedicate the giant Sardar Sarovar dam on the Narmada to the nation. Jawaharlal Nehru laid the foundation stone for the project in 1961. It is very controversial and has displaced hundreds of thousands of villagers and submerged prime forest and farmland. <br> <br> But it, and over two dozen other dams in the huge Narmada River Valley project, will irrigate huge swathes of three states and generate millions of units of electricity. Just the kind of mega-project that takes your mind off other things.
 
Not an economist but demonetisation would have always resulted in short term hit at growth rate.. When black money forms the spine of your economy demonetisation was bound to hit economy in short term.. The true benefit of demonetisation would be seen in next few years.. Offourse it might be that nothing happens but probably someone more well read on this can explain better..
 
Not an economist but demonetisation would have always resulted in short term hit at growth rate.. When black money forms the spine of your economy demonetisation was bound to hit economy in short term.. The true benefit of demonetisation would be seen in next few years.. Offourse it might be that nothing happens but probably someone more well read on this can explain better..

If government was really serious for removing black money they would have stopped the anonymous donations to the political parties.

I am not an economist either but considering how most of the black money has been returned to the system and the economy slowdown, demonetization seems a futile exercise.

I really wonder which genius advised the PM to go for demonetization.
 
Demonetisation was a big failure. But GST will be good for the government.
 
If government was really serious for removing black money they would have stopped the anonymous donations to the political parties.

I am not an economist either but considering how most of the black money has been returned to the system and the economy slowdown, demonetization seems a futile exercise.

I really wonder which genius advised the PM to go for demonetization.
The objective of demonetization wasn't to remove black money, it was to bring (untraceable) black money back into the real economy.

Now what is black money ~ basically anything that was earned using illegit sources or something on which you haven't paid taxes, both can be termed as black money.

The ones who used illegit sources, you can count any number from smuggling, kidnapping, murder, extortion, ponzi schemes, so on & so forth. Not all of this money can come back into the real economy, without the benefactor having being exposed & possibly going to jail. A lot of that depends on the quantum of money the black money holder has & how creative he is in hiding it. For instance land & property is till the number one source of putting & pulling you black money in/from & nearly all real estate developers, agents have ties with politicians, goons etc.

Basically the goal of this entire excercise was to get taxes from these hoarders who had lots of cash, the smart ones didn't have it in cash, but more importantly we need more money in the banking system. The banks are reeling with bad loans, recapitalization was nigh impossible, given the quantum of bad loans so this was the best option.

In other words the govt is making the real (transparent) economy larger & stronger by punishing all the black money makers/keepers & bringing more cash/liquidity into the system. The same goes for GST, your neighborhood chemist or kirana shop will have to pay (more) taxes, which they obviously didn't for so long!

You could argue its effectiveness, but both the demonetization & GST were genius moves, any which way you look at it.
 
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I'm much more optimistic about GST than DeMo which was a crapshow . GST has actually forced people to bring their businesses under formal economy. Although, the govt made the tax filing process far too complex for small & medium businessmen. That is whats causing a lot of the confusion .
 
The objective of demonetization wasn't to remove black money, it was to bring (untraceable) black money back into the real economy.

Now what is black money ~ basically anything that was earned using illegit sources or something on which you haven't paid taxes, both can be termed as black money.

The ones who used illegit sources, you can count any number from smuggling, kidnapping, murder, extortion, ponzi schemes, so on & so forth. Not all of this money can come back into the real economy, without the benefactor having being exposed & possibly going to jail. A lot of that depends on the quantum of money the black money holder has & how creative he is in hiding it. For instance land & property is till the number one source of putting & pulling you black money in/from & nearly all real estate developers, agents have ties with politicians, goons etc.

Basically the goal of this entire excercise was to get taxes from these hoarders who had lots of cash, the smart ones didn't have it in cash, but more importantly we need more money in the banking system. The banks are reeling with bad loans, recapitalization was nigh impossible, given the quantum of bad loans so this was the best option.

In other words the govt is making the real (transparent) economy larger & stronger by punishing all the black money makers/keepers & bringing more cash/liquidity into the system. The same goes for GST, your neighborhood chemist or kirana shop will have to pay (more) taxes, which they obviously didn't for so long!

You could argue its effectiveness, but both the demonetization & GST were genius moves, any which way you look at it.

The Prime Minister in his address to the nation on the evening of 8 November, 2016 did list corruption, black money and fake currency notes as the immediate provocation for the drastic measure. Later on, he added cashless economy and later still less cash economy. So forgive me if I am still confused about the actual reasons behind demonetization.

I am a rookie in economics so I really don't know how demonetization will impact our economy in the long term, but I do know that
nearly 15 lakh jobs were lost during first four months of demonetization. You have cash in banks, but no of people approaching banks for loans has significantly reduced. Banks have started imposing tax on their account holders themselves.

GDP was 7.9 in April-June 2016 and it has decreased to 5.7 this year. Manufacturing sector growth has come down from 10% to 1.2% in one year. I am sincerely hoping that demonetization would have some good impact in the long run coz I can see only drawbacks uptil now.
 
I love how the goal of Demonetization has kept changing :)) ,its a point scoring thread no issues still,BJP has not been able to create jobs,there isn't a doubt about it and this is after free netetc what not,shows that pushing the economy doesn't always work,but would still wait a year before judgement,right now my money just goes for the heavily taxed fuel which angers me everytime i go to the station.
 
I'm much more optimistic about GST than DeMo which was a crapshow . GST has actually forced people to bring their businesses under formal economy. Although, the govt made the tax filing process far too complex for small & medium businessmen. That is whats causing a lot of the confusion .

Yes they did,a friend of mine was confused till last minute that under which slab will he be into.GST should had been the first act of this govn but they like fools brought it in the middle,the skeptic in me feels like they waited for fuel prices to drop so they could tax it and keep it from GST.
 
I love how the goal of Demonetization has kept changing :)) ,its a point scoring thread no issues still,BJP has not been able to create jobs,there isn't a doubt about it and this is after free netetc what not,shows that pushing the economy doesn't always work,but would still wait a year before judgement,right now my money just goes for the heavily taxed fuel which angers me everytime i go to the station.

Blame lies with the non existent opposition we have in our country. It was an ideal opportunity for the opposition to take on government over fuel prices and would have got public support too but either they are simply not interested or worse incompetent.
 
Blame lies with the non existent opposition we have in our country. It was an ideal opportunity for the opposition to take on government over fuel prices and would have got public support too but either they are simply not interested or worse incompetent.

The problem is same,Arvind blew himself out with his terrible dharnas,Congress if still comes out with Rahul opposing this it would backfire.

Remaining Mamta we know what she really cares about Durga Idols,South its almost non existent,this must how it would had felt in earlier years of India when one party was dominating everything ,terrible!!!
 
The problem is same,Arvind blew himself out with his terrible dharnas,Congress if still comes out with Rahul opposing this it would backfire.

Remaining Mamta we know what she really cares about Durga Idols,South its almost non existent,this must how it would had felt in earlier years of India when one party was dominating everything ,terrible!!!

Congress is the only viable option, only if they can look past Rahul Gandhi.
 
Congress is the only viable option, only if they can look past Rahul Gandhi.

If there was no Gandhi at the helm, Congress would cease to exist as 20 different leaders would break off to form 20 different "Congresses".

If not Rahul, then the other Gandhi is Priyanka. It appears that she is even less likely to succeed than Rahul. I will not repeat the many rumors about her.
 
If there was no Gandhi at the helm, Congress would cease to exist as 20 different leaders would break off to form 20 different "Congresses".

If not Rahul, then the other Gandhi is Priyanka. It appears that she is even less likely to succeed than Rahul. I will not repeat the many rumors about her.

Yea like it did during Narsimha Rao era?They obviously need a central authority figure but they never managed to create one or look past the Gandhis.

Leaders within the party are created by business backing,it would be naive to think Modi came out as BJP leader because of transparent democracy within BJP.
 
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...k.com&utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=ETFBMain

Those of us in our sixties, including our prime minister, will remember the goli soda. You used a little wooden gizmo to push in a marble stuck in the mouth of a bottle and guzzled the sweet, fizzy drink with the marble dancing around inside. Then you felt full and happy. But it was mostly gas. <br> <br> It’s feeling a lot like that these days, and PM Narendra Modi must have a tough time keeping our spirits up. Every few days there is a saccharine shot, but let’s face it – we are in the doldrums. <br> <br> Demonetisation and the Goods and Services Tax (GST) have both extracted an economic price from nearly every Indian. The drumbeat of dismal data continues. <br> <br> The Index of Industrial Production rose just 1.2% in July compared with a 5.2% rise in July 2016....

Blah, blah, blah, whatever. The critics like to provide fragmented statistics. The one statistics that matters is the yearly growth rate, so let's wait for that.

If you google "India's growth rate" you get a variety of headlines. The top matches are quite contradictory:

OECD report says India's GDP growth will overtake China's in 2018
http://www.moneycontrol.com/news/in...owth-will-overtake-china-in-2018-2393773.html

Indian economy in a tailspin: What went wrong
http://www.livemint.com/Politics/bz...an-economy-in-a-tailspin-What-went-wrong.html

There is apparently a transitory negative effect from demonitization and the introduction of GST, but in the longer term the effect will be positive. As long as the rate of growth is 6.5%+, it is fine.
 
Yea like it did during Narsimha Rao era?They obviously need a central authority figure but they never managed to create one or look past the Gandhis.

I am not sure I understand what you mean. Rao was the PM, but the political power was entirely in the hands of the Gandhi family, and Sonia dumped him when he was no longer useful to her.

Historically, parts of Congress have broken away but few have been successful. Trinomool in Bengal is one which has been successful. If the Gandhi family is not in charge, many parts would break away super quickly.

Leaders within the party are created by business backing,it would be naive to think Modi came out as BJP leader because of transparent democracy within BJP.

Sonia Gandhi was created not by business backing but because she was part of the Gandhi family. Modi was successful because Gujarat did very well economically when he was CM.
 
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Yeah and right now on overdose of religion and unwanted bullet **.

This is India. Personally I don't think there is any more or less of that than under any other government. The media lens is bigger as Modi came with such pre-conceived notions that they wanted to portray.

It is not a BJP thing - I don't recall any of this during Vajpayee's time.

In any case, this thread is about the economy. In between whiles, there was 10 years of Manmohan and Sonia, who successfully flew this country to the ground. Is anybody really suggesting with a straight face that Rahul Gandhi would do any better? Please.
 
Is anybody really suggesting with a straight face that Rahul Gandhi would do any better? Please.

Those who hate the BJP have only the Congress to offer as a national alternative.
 
God please no. India under a Congress government is always lackadaisical and anemic.

A thriving democracy needs a strong opposition. Coming in power is still a distant dream for them, we need a strong opposition to keep the government honest and accountable.
 
A thriving democracy needs a strong opposition. Coming in power is still a distant dream for them, we need a strong opposition to keep the government honest and accountable.

Definitely, but I feel too much is made of the Congress being weak at this stage. When they won the elections in 2009 to stay in power, though they didn't get an absolute majority by themselves, they still won over 200+ seats.

At that time, the BJP were the weaklings with no future, the aged Advani being party chief. A few short years later, they skyrocketed and won a majority by themselves.

These things have a habit of turning around quickly. My only complaint is that Rahul Gandhi is the last person who can orchestrate such a thing - they need somebody else.
 
I am not sure I understand what you mean. Rao was the PM, but the political power was entirely in the hands of the Gandhi family, and Sonia dumped him when he was no longer useful to her.

Historically, parts of Congress have broken away but few have been successful. Trinomool in Bengal is one which has been successful. If the Gandhi family is not in charge, many parts would break away super quickly.



Sonia Gandhi was created not by business backing but because she was part of the Gandhi family. Modi was successful because Gujarat did very well economically when he was CM.

Agree On Gandhis never supported them and never will and no Narsimha Rao's corruption allegation is what brought him down for all one could say,Gandhi family pushed it on him,because he genuinely kept power away from Sonia,but looks like we believe the opposites here,IMO He kept them away from power,whereas you are saying he kept them in.

This is India. Personally I don't think there is any more or less of that than under any other government. The media lens is bigger as Modi came with such pre-conceived notions that they wanted to portray.

It is not a BJP thing - I don't recall any of this during Vajpayee's time.

In any case, this thread is about the economy. In between whiles, there was 10 years of Manmohan and Sonia, who successfully flew this country to the ground. Is anybody really suggesting with a straight face that Rahul Gandhi would do any better? Please.

Defn not,Gandhis are defn the worst also only reason why I would vote right wing,but the BJP without technocrats like Arun Shourie are just heavily influenced by RSS,VHP.
 
Those who hate the BJP have only the Congress to offer as a national alternative.

Sad but again true,I have no issues with BJP with somewhat centrist leaders like Vajpayee,Shivraj,Gadkari,Sushma the issue is only with Swamy,Amit,Yogi,RSS,VHP.
Hard to figure out Modi is on which side although tbf to him he tries to keep a balance.
 
Defn not,Gandhis are defn the worst also only reason why I would vote right wing,but the BJP without technocrats like Arun Shourie are just heavily influenced by RSS,VHP.

The economy moves forward under a BJP government. Fact.

I live in Bangalore at the moment and I can see Siddaramaiah running from pillar to post begging for votes looking ahead to next year. He knows the writing is on the wall after pressing the snooze button for five years - he ain't winning.

The problem is every Congress government - state or centre - is like that.
 
This is India. Personally I don't think there is any more or less of that than under any other government. The media lens is bigger as Modi came with such pre-conceived notions that they wanted to portray.

It is not a BJP thing - I don't recall any of this during Vajpayee's time.

In any case, this thread is about the economy. In between whiles, there was 10 years of Manmohan and Sonia, who successfully flew this country to the ground. Is anybody really suggesting with a straight face that Rahul Gandhi would do any better? Please.

UPA 1 was way better than the current tenure of the NDA government. Do you really think Rahul Gandhi would have done any worse than what modi has done till now? GDP has decreased, lakhs of jobs have been lost, fuel prices are still high, farmers are still committing suicide, not to mention the rising tension between Hindus and Muslims. What has modi changed in three years after coming to power except for making towering claims about how he is going to bring ache din?
 
Hard to figure out Modi is on which side although tbf to him he tries to keep a balance.

Modi is not a fool. He very well knows that India will be stronger if its economy does well. That remains his #1 goal.
 
The Prime Minister in his address to the nation on the evening of 8 November, 2016 did list corruption, black money and fake currency notes as the immediate provocation for the drastic measure. Later on, he added cashless economy and later still less cash economy. So forgive me if I am still confused about the actual reasons behind demonetization.

I am a rookie in economics so I really don't know how demonetization will impact our economy in the long term, but I do know that
nearly 15 lakh jobs were lost during first four months of demonetization. You have cash in banks, but no of people approaching banks for loans has significantly reduced. Banks have started imposing tax on their account holders themselves.

GDP was 7.9 in April-June 2016 and it has decreased to 5.7 this year. Manufacturing sector growth has come down from 10% to 1.2% in one year. I am sincerely hoping that demonetization would have some good impact in the long run coz I can see only drawbacks uptil now.
Forget the address of the PM, that's for public consumption, the reasons were twofold mainly, the ones I have listed ~ black money & more money into the banking system, to help bad loan problem.

Our GDP hinges on global economy, even though consumption & services sector makes it similar to the composition of US (their share in the overall economy) we are more reliant on exports than the US, that is to be expected as we didn't go through the same process of industrialization that China or US did. The point is with a waek global economy & China we can't expect to keep growing at 7.5% or higher. The dip is likely due to both the factors mentioned in the thread, but some of the effects are exaggerated, we cannot possibly quantify how much the economy has slowed due to them.

The banks need this cash for NPA & NPL, whether they give this money back in form of new loans, or anything else depends on the person's credit rating. The problem is a lot of other initiatives aren't working for banks & they have to obey their political masters, did you know that the Punjab govt last year asked PNB to write off it's bad loans, in Punjab amounting to something like 50k crores. I don't remember the exact figures but this was it, well before the elections btw.
 
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The economy moves forward under a BJP government. Fact.

I live in Bangalore at the moment and I can see Siddaramaiah running from pillar to post begging for votes looking ahead to next year. He knows the writing is on the wall after pressing the snooze button for five years - he ain't winning.

The problem is every Congress government - state or centre - is like that.

Again not true,Congress under Sheila Dixit changed the way how Delhi was,although tbf they have a very high budget,SM Krishna did well for Bangalore,but Karnataka was left behind.

Development for the sake of it is the reason why Bangalore gets all those issues of pollution,there is no check,now Gadkari is planning to expand highways,which is of no point coz its highway but it would lead to more destruction of green cover near them,this is not in check.

There needs to be strict rules for mining,which aren't there in India could be because we are still worried about Caste,religion and giving these businesses politicians no opposition.

Agree that state governments of BJP up north have done well,I was in Bangalore during BJP's rule in Karanalata and they were nothing great.
 
Do you really think Rahul Gandhi would have done any worse than what modi has done till now? <b>GDP has decreased</b>... What has modi changed in three years after coming to power except for making towering claims about how he is going to bring ache din?

Where do you get your "facts" from??? India's GDP has grown at an average rate of greater than 7% the last 3 years.
 
Modi is not a fool. He very well knows that India will be stronger if its economy does well. That remains his #1 goal.

Yes,question is do i support semi-religious centered, unchecked development with lesser restrictions,I guess not yet,I'm still against companies like Vedanta.

Its hard to change ideologically ,but as soon as there is an alternative to Modi,I would defn vote the other way irrespective of how his decisions might actually be better for future.
 
Yes,question is do i support semi-religious centered, unchecked development with lesser restrictions,I guess not yet,I'm still against companies like Vedanta.

Its hard to change ideologically ,but as soon as there is an alternative to Modi,I would defn vote the other way irrespective of how his decisions might actually be better for future.

If only Congress could prop up Tharoor as the PM candidate.
 
UPA 1 was way better than the current tenure of the NDA government. Do you really think Rahul Gandhi would have done any worse than what modi has done till now? GDP has decreased, lakhs of jobs have been lost, fuel prices are still high, farmers are still committing suicide, not to mention the rising tension between Hindus and Muslims. What has modi changed in three years after coming to power except for making towering claims about how he is going to bring ache din?

UPA-1 was getting the benefits of NDA, UPA-2 was supposed to reap benefits of UPA-1 and we know how that turned out.
NDA-1 was very good,Arun Shourie,Pramod Mahajan,Vajpayee etc changed the way business was done,highways,telecom ,disinvestment in poor govn sectors was the reason why UPA-1 had it good.
 
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Wouldn't support someone like that again,he is the replica of Justin Trudeau whom I dislike.

Trudeau is a PR hungry puppy face politician with no spine. Tharoor never shies away from speaking his mind. Would attract the south indian vote, and the english speaking middle class, plus the traditional congress base. Modi's win last time was also due to the meek image of Manmohan.
 
Trudeau is a PR hungry puppy face politician with no spine. Tharoor never shies away from speaking his mind. Would attract the south indian vote, and the english speaking middle class, plus the traditional congress base. Modi's win last time was also due to the meek image of Manmohan.

Yes and how is Tharoor not meek when he doesn't say a word against dynasty politics and he promoted Rahul Gandhi recently? Also has too much baggage with Sunanda etc.

Tharoor has taken taken digs at recent Hindu festival and again did the classic mistake of targeting only the majority religion.
 
If only Congress could prop up Tharoor as the PM candidate.

Just because the man can deliver a good speech, doesn't mean he will be able to guide India's economic progress.

Tharoor is quite sleazy, his former wife got over $10 million for "sweat equity" from a firm bidding for an IPL team from Tharoor's home state. Shortly before her death she said she had taken upon herself "the crimes of this man [Shashi Tharoor] during IPL". There are also enough unanswered questions about murder.
 
Demonetization is a flop. Raghuram Rajan is Raghuram Rajan. Owning everyone since 2007. :))

GST is a mess now (filing complicated, frequent, rates are high for many commodities) but we need a system like this for long term. Doubt anyone says GST as a concept is not good for India.

Economy is in the tanks.

One major factor that people ignore is that when Manmohan Singh was at the helm, oil prices were crazy high. Now it's dropped so much and yet this government is struggling.

I will have to read up more on this but unanimous view by those around me is that Jaitley is a fool and has very little knowledgge about economics and Modi is living in his own lala land.
 
GDP growth "slows" to 5.7% and now economy is in a tailspin -- wow!! There are about 175 countries in the world who'll give their arms and legs for a GDP growth of 5.7%.

Sure the growth has slowed down but it will bounce back again once GST settles down and the shock of demo wears out.
 
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True.

But it wasn't the main objective. It later became the main objective. :P

The objective was good. Any strike against black money and corruption is a good objective. Maybe it wasn't as effective as hoped for. Apparently a lot of black money is kept in the form of assets rather than cash.

If pressed, you will probably admit that "Economy is in the tank" and "Modi is living in his own lala land" are just hyperbole :)
 
The objective was good. Any strike against black money and corruption is a good objective. Maybe it wasn't as effective as hoped for. Apparently a lot of black money is kept in the form of assets rather than cash.

If pressed, you will probably admit that "Economy is in the tank" and "Modi is living in his own lala land" are just hyperbole :)

Reading reports, things are not rosy but yeah we will bounce back.

Modi is a good administrator in general but the way he went about demo and gst doesn't inspire confidence.
 
GDP growth "slows" to 5.7% and now economy is in a tailspin -- wow!! There are about 175 countries in the world who'll give their arms and legs for a GDP growth of 5.7%.

Sure the growth has slowed down but it will bounce back again once GST settles down and the shock of demo wears out.

Those are countries which are developed from years of industrialization, just because Bihar might have 10% growth doesn't mean it's near China in terms of industrial development
 
One major factor that people ignore is that when Manmohan Singh was at the helm, oil prices were crazy high. Now it's dropped so much and yet this government is struggling.

Good point. How does this govt manage the oil prices compared to what was done during UPA? Are there change in subsidies, or are the oil corporations deciding the price? Basically what has changed this time?
 
The biggest fall of demonetization has been that banks we're allowed to get away with screwed up balance sheets,Raghuram wanted them to be responsible for those loans but BJP didn't want to be on the face of such a situation.

Only thing I can say is Raghuram warned about economic crisis in 2005 everyone mocked him and it happened, similarly he put pressure on Indian banks to come clean and they escaped.

Will always remember this as the worst thing BJP ever did.
 
Reading reports, things are not rosy but yeah we will bounce back.

Modi is a good administrator in general but the way he went about demo and gst doesn't inspire confidence.

It was a pretty big achievement to get GST passed, given that the Opposition had control of the Rajya Sabha for a long time and was determined to stop it.

GST is a very big change and there will be some teething problems. But over time it is going to be hugely beneficial as it will remove internal barriers to commerce in India allowing firms to get larger and be more competitive.
 
Good point. How does this govt manage the oil prices compared to what was done during UPA? Are there change in subsidies, or are the oil corporations deciding the price? Basically what has changed this time?

From what I have always heard, our government is taxing us.

Record production in the United States (US), weakened demand from the Eurozone and emerging economies like China and Brazil, and Iran’s entry into the international market have effectively slashed the price of crude oil for India, from $106 per barrel in July 2014 to $26 in January 2016 — a 75% drop over 15 months.

So, why are you not seeing evidence of this price-cut at your local petrol and diesel station? The answer: As global crude prices reach a 11-year low, the Centre and state governments steadily increase excise duties and value-added tax, shoring up their revenues and keeping fuel prices high for retail consumers.

Retail consumers pay more tax on petrol and diesel than its actual price. Of the price you pay for a litre of petrol, 57% goes to the government as tax. Of the Rs.44 per litre of diesel, 55% is tax. If the excise duties on diesel had not been increased these two years, diesel would have cost Rs.32 per litre today. The direct effect of oil prices on cost of transportation of goods and thus consumer inflation has been demonstrated by research from Integrated Research and Action for Development (an autonomous research institute), as journalist and economist Swaminathan Anklesaria Aiyar wrote in this blog. Research on inflation in Turkey and Sri Lanka has underlined the effect of fuel prices on inflation. Lower fuel prices can keep inflation in check, according to this report in Business Standard.

https://thewire.in/20964/why-the-75-drop-in-global-oil-prices-isnt-reaching-you/

I honestly don't know how they get away with it. If someone can explain, I would love to know myself.
 
What's the biggie about demonetization?

They just removed 500s and 1000s, and brought back 500s and 2000s. Everybody still has the same money: the number in your bank account did not change.

It was the stuff of fantasies to see the Prime Minister, no less, come out and say something that put crooks like real estate developers and jewellers under real pressure. And what was the price I had to pay for that? Stand in an ATM queue once, twice? No big deal.

If anything, Modi should come out on the 1st year anniversary of DeMo and demonetize the 2000 rupee note. And those folks who struggle and whine second time in a row are a bunch of bonafide numpties.
 
What's the biggie about demonetization?

They just removed 500s and 1000s, and brought back 500s and 2000s. Everybody still has the same money: the number in your bank account did not change.

It was the stuff of fantasies to see the Prime Minister, no less, come out and say something that put crooks like real estate developers and jewellers under real pressure. And what was the price I had to pay for that? Stand in an ATM queue once, twice? No big deal.

If anything, Modi should come out on the 1st year anniversary of DeMo and demonetize the 2000 rupee note. And those folks who struggle and whine second time in a row are a bunch of bonafide numpties.

Ask him

_976087fe-c29f-11e6-913d-826c0833a15d.jpg

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india...a-raw-nerve/story-lWft5KIHyDEjZpVnrx9SiI.html
 

Why? Did he lose any money? Did the number in his bank account decrease?

In reality, the photo looks like a queue of Joe Publics with the guy in question being a beggar asking for alms. I doubt he'd have seen a Rs. 500 note in his life.
 
From what I have always heard, our government is taxing us.



https://thewire.in/20964/why-the-75-drop-in-global-oil-prices-isnt-reaching-you/

I honestly don't know how they get away with it. If someone can explain, I would love to know myself.

Yes, wanted to know myself. Anyone who knows can probably educate us on this topic. The UPA deregulated oil prices in 2010, so would like to know what was the excise duty then and what is know...if that is the reason prices are still high. We as a country are used to subsidies..don't know if it is good or bad.

Personally, would like the govt to heavily tax oil guzzling SUV's and luxury cars.
 
Why? Did he lose any money? Did the number in his bank account decrease?

In reality, the photo looks like a queue of Joe Publics with the guy in question being a beggar asking for alms. I doubt he'd have seen a Rs. 500 note in his life.

Reading the link I posted will help answer your queries. Unless of course like all bhakts you believe that all these newspapers are out to get Modi.
 
Reading the link I posted will help answer your queries. Unless of course like all bhakts you believe that all these newspapers are out to get Modi.

I'm not a bhakt and have never voted in any election in my life. I don't even have a Voter ID Card. If I ever vote, I'll vote for an independent candidate who hopefully stands a good chance of winning a seat in the area.

Why does everybody descend into this nuts and bolts argument whenever DeMo comes up? My Facebook feed is also full of it.
 
Reading the link I posted will help answer your queries. Unless of course like all bhakts you believe that all these newspapers are out to get Modi.

The story says about the hardship of lining up in a queue, which was really tough for the elderly.

Is that the only failure of demonetization?
 
Checking out that link anyway, this is the crux of the photo:

Old man cries in Gurgaon after missing his spot in a long queue... and they said only the rich will cry.
Photo by @parveenkumar_ht

Boo hoo.
 
Why? Did he lose any money? Did the number in his bank account decrease?

In reality, the photo looks like a queue of Joe Publics with the guy in question being a beggar asking for alms. I doubt he'd have seen a Rs. 500 note in his life.

Have some respect and kindness to this old man. Is it too much to ask for?
 
Have some respect and kindness to this old man. Is it too much to ask for?

Okay, he has seen Rs. 500 and Rs. 1000 notes in his time.

Hope that settles the issue.
 
The story says about the hardship of lining up in a queue, which was really tough for the elderly.

Is that the only failure of demonetization?

It was especially hard for daily wage laborers who couldnt get paid for many days because apparently there was no cash. They had to miss many days of their work to stand in the queues outside the bank. And apparently 100 people died. 15 lakh jobs were lost. If that doesnt count as big thing, I dont know what will.
 
What's the biggie about demonetization?

They just removed 500s and 1000s, and brought back 500s and 2000s. Everybody still has the same money: the number in your bank account did not change.

It was the stuff of fantasies to see the Prime Minister, no less, come out and say something that put crooks like real estate developers and jewellers under real pressure. And what was the price I had to pay for that? Stand in an ATM queue once, twice? No big deal.

If anything, Modi should come out on the 1st year anniversary of DeMo and demonetize the 2000 rupee note. And those folks who struggle and whine second time in a row are a bunch of bonafide numpties.

It was about bank transparency,they got away with giving bad loans,they escaped.

Imagine failing whole semester and then ur dad comes and gets u 100 in the final exams, nothing u did but someone from outside.

What do you think will happen next semester,why would the son put in effort?
 
Checking out that link anyway, this is the crux of the photo:

Old man cries in Gurgaon after missing his spot in a long queue... and they said only the rich will cry.
Photo by @parveenkumar_ht

Boo hoo.

That poor old man was there to withdraw his pension. He was coming there for the past two days but because of long queues couldnt do that. And when he was pushed out of the queue, his tears were in response to realization that he wouldnt be able to withdraw his pension that day as well. But as you very eloquently put it Boo hoo.

Who cares if poor people go hungry to sleep, as long as it helps the economy and doesnt affect the rich.
 
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That poor old man was there to withdraw his pension. He was coming there for the past two days but because of long queues couldnt do that. And when he was pushed out of the queue, his tears were in response to realization that he wouldnt be able to withdraw his pension that day as well. But as you very eloquently put it Boo hoo.

Who cares if poor people go hungry to sleep, as long as it helps the economy and doesnt affect the rich.

How much do you donate to the poor annually bro? And what is the wage you pay to your maid?
 
It was especially hard for daily wage laborers who couldnt get paid for many days because apparently there was no cash. They had to miss many days of their work to stand in the queues outside the bank. And apparently 100 people died. 15 lakh jobs were lost. If that doesnt count as big thing, I dont know what will.

What kind of jobs were lost? Was there any benefit in demo? I hear many shell companies were identified which were used for money laundering, and more taxpayers were added. Does that count as a positive?
 
What kind of jobs were lost? Was there any benefit in demo? I hear many shell companies were identified which were used for money laundering, and more taxpayers were added. Does that count as a positive?

I can give you an example from what I saw. Road near my office was being constructed from July 2016. But the work was stopped for more than three months after demonetization was announced because contractor didnt have enough cash to pay to the laborers.

I really dont know of any positives from demo. I dont know what was the main objective behind demonetization but as certain posters above pointed out, that main objective was to bring black money into the system and I believe you if you say many shell companies were identified. The question I have is whether both these objectives could have ben achieved by gradually phasing out the notes instead of suddenly banning them thus preventing the hardships faced by poor and may be deaths of many. Perhaps some economist might answer that.
 
I can give you an example from what I saw. Road near my office was being constructed from July 2016. But the work was stopped for more than three months after demonetization was announced because contractor didnt have enough cash to pay to the laborers.

I really dont know of any positives from demo. I dont know what was the main objective behind demonetization but as certain posters above pointed out, that main objective was to bring black money into the system and I believe you if you say many shell companies were identified. The question I have is whether both these objectives could have ben achieved by gradually phasing out the notes instead of suddenly banning them thus preventing the hardships faced by poor and may be deaths of many. Perhaps some economist might answer that.

Much before DeMo, everyone was asked to open bank accounts, even with zero balance. So that money could be transferred and reduce the cash transactions.

The shock factor was important, if it was implemented in a phased manner, then word would have leaked out, rendering everything futile.

I see the biggest loss was the inconvenience to the poor during that time. Apart from that, I don't see any negative effects. I don't trust the words of manmohana, he is a stooge, and had explained that the 2g scam was not really a scam, but subsidy given to the rich. He should keep his mouth shut like he did for 10 years.
 
Much before DeMo, everyone was asked to open bank accounts, even with zero balance. So that money could be transferred and reduce the cash transactions.

The shock factor was important, if it was implemented in a phased manner, then word would have leaked out, rendering everything futile.

I see the biggest loss was the inconvenience to the poor during that time. Apart from that, I don't see any negative effects. I don't trust the words of manmohana, he is a stooge, and had explained that the 2g scam was not really a scam, but subsidy given to the rich. He should keep his mouth shut like he did for 10 years.


Yes indeed, but to withdraw money from your own bank accounts, you had to stand in the queues of ATMs or banks. I showed you the photo of a retired army man who couldn't withdraw his pension. Most of these poor old people are illiterate and cant use debit cards. And how many kirana stores were equipped with card readers to enable cashless transactions. Many middle class people weren't able to withdraw their salaries from their bank accounts and thus had no cash to give salaries to their domestic help who live hand to mouth. I doubt you pay the salary to your maid or cook via NEFT.

A banker wrote this:
"And if tomorrow I have to tell another mother that we can’t give her enough cash for her child’s treatment, I will breakdown. If tomorrow I see another shivering old lady in the queue, I will breakdown"

We must be very insensitive if we are going to dismiss these problems as mere inconvenience.
 
ive noticed generally the expat indians are pro-demonetization and keep on listing the benefits through it whereas indians in india dont seem too excited by it
 
Yes indeed, but to withdraw money from your own bank accounts, you had to stand in the queues of ATMs or banks. I showed you the photo of a retired army man who couldn't withdraw his pension. Most of these poor old people are illiterate and cant use debit cards. And how many kirana stores were equipped with card readers to enable cashless transactions. Many middle class people weren't able to withdraw their salaries from their bank accounts and thus had no cash to give salaries to their domestic help who live hand to mouth. I doubt you pay the salary to your maid or cook via NEFT.

A banker wrote this:


We must be very insensitive if we are going to dismiss these problems as mere inconvenience.

You are harping on the same point. I agree it caused short term inconvenience to the poor. But that can't be used to call the entire thing a failure. Do you deny that there were any gains that will help the economy in the long run?
 
The derogatory use of the term bhakt, originates from hatred towards hindus..although those who use it will deny and call it a secular term.

Yeah only in your world anything against RSS/sanghi means being against the hindus. This video is more against Rahul gandhi than Modi or any other bakt. Watch it if you have any time or patience left.
 
Yeah only in your world anything against RSS/sanghi means being against the hindus. This video is more against Rahul gandhi than Modi or any other bakt. Watch it if you have any time or patience left.

Yes, yes. When someone calls Mulayam Singh Yadav, as Mulla yam, he is only against the politician, nothing against muslims. When someone calls mamata banerjee as Momtaz begum, he is only against her, not against muslims. So obviously when our so called secular friends call someone a bhakt, they are only against Modi supporters, nothing against hindus. But insulting hindus is fashionable, so carry on, we are used to it.
 
You are harping on the same point. I agree it caused short term inconvenience to the poor. But that can't be used to call the entire thing a failure. Do you deny that there were any gains that will help the economy in the long run?

Once the government reaches consensus about the main objectives behind demonetization, we can argue whether it was a success or a failure.
 
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Once the government reaches consensus about the main objectives behind demonetization, we can argue whether it was a success or a failure.

I am not saying the positives that came out were intended. Maybe they were not. But that doesn't take away that there were gains from it, even if unintended, and that is what should matter to the common man. So again, do you deny that there were any positives, even if unintentional?
 
I am not saying the positives that came out were intended. Maybe they were not. But that doesn't take away that there were gains from it, even if unintended, and that is what should matter to the common man. So again, do you deny that there were any positives, even if unintentional?

Yes there were positives but then do you think that means justify the end?
 
What could have been the alternate means in your opinion?

It was clearly a decision taken in haste. They should have made sure that adequate number of new notes were printed and ATM machines calibrated to handle new notes before announcing demo. Also, should have thought about the loopholes which money hoarders exploited to deposit their money. I know its all easy to say with hindsight but since 99% of the money has already made it to banks it wouldnt have been the worse decision to ban the notes gradually. That way poor wouldnt have to face so much hardship.
 
[MENTION=136588]CricketCartoons[/MENTION] what are basically arguing about ?
 
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