Four mega-trends that condemn the West to irreversible decline

[Technics 1210]

Four mega-trends that condemn the West to irreversible decline

So that’s it, then: British troops will be out within days, and the Americans shortly after. There will be no delay, no extra time to fly out more citizens or refugees, no pity. Why? Because the Taliban say so, and they, rather than Joe Biden, are now in charge of Afghanistan, free to terrorise it back to the stone age.

The West’s Kabul moment, unlike the Fall of Saigon in 1975 or Jimmy Carter’s Tehran hostage crisis in 1979, scenes of previous humiliations, is no false alarm. There will be no bounce-back, no miraculous renaissance: this time the North American-European-Australasian model really is in trouble, as the next stage of the 21st century’s great geopolitical and civilisational realignment begins in earnest.

In the coming years, there will be more Afghanistans: America may still boast the world’s most powerful army, but the West’s 320-year hegemony, which began when English GDP per capita finally overtook that of China’s Yangtze Delta in around 1700, is over. Other civilisations will become as rich and powerful, and sometimes more so, than ours, just as they were throughout recorded history. They too will want their spheres of influence; they too will want their values to prevail.

At least four mega-trends are conspiring to break the West’s grip on the world: the emergence of non-democratic capitalism; the misuse of technology; the net zero revolution; and America’s and Europe’s ideological decadence.

It used to be believed that the entire world would converge voluntarily on a Western model. We would wear the same clothes, drive the same cars and eat at McDonald’s. Capitalism would lead to the universal adoption of democracy, human rights and secularism, buttressed by institutions such as the UN: this Hegelian version of history was as deluded as the Marxist nonsense it replaced.

It was based on a series of intellectual errors, not least a denial of the West’s particular Jewish and Christian history, the latter recounted so brilliantly in Tom Holland’s Dominion, and a narcissistic, arrogant, ahistorical downplaying of other traditions. A corollary to this was the erroneous belief that adopting capitalism – a technology to deliver economic growth – had to mean also adopting individual liberty: one couldn’t pick and choose, because both emerged together in England and the Netherlands.

Terrifyingly for libertarian conservatives such as myself, this was wrong. The Western model can be disaggregated, as the Chinese have proved. Capitalism can easily coexist with tyranny; free markets don’t imply free speech. This means that the 21st century will be defined by a range of clashing civilisational models. There will be China, of course, and India, but also Indonesia, Pakistan, Brazil and Nigeria as regional powers. Thanks to capitalism, they will become rich; but they won’t be Western. Some may be democracies, but in a very different sense to what we understand by it: India, for example, may well become far more explicitly Hindu nationalist.

The next big change is that the West is no longer putting economic growth first, while the emerging empires are still desperate to get rich. America and Europe’s embrace of net zero is largely driven by altruism: its proponents believe that poorer countries will suffer greater harm from climate change than wealthier nations. Yet many of these same nations are planning to make the most of the West’s green turn to reinforce their own rise.

China’s real agenda is to pick up new, clean technologies developed at great cost by the West on the cheap, allowing it to leap-frog America and Europe without crippling its own economy. Net zero will also unleash geopolitical chaos: how will Putin respond to the collapse in demand for gas? Could he push Nato and an unprepared, semi-pacifist EU beyond destruction? The Gulf States are also likely to implode, creating a series of additional Afghanistan-like scenarios for America. Last but not least,by bolstering the importance of the rare earth metals such as lithium and cobalt required for new technologies, net zero will give China a dramatic boost. It has cleverly been seeking to corner the supply of these key 21st resources and is hoping to grab Afghanistan’s plentiful supplies.

Technology, and its misuse, represents the third great paradigm shift. In the West, social media in particular has had a catastrophic, corrosive impact on attention spans, the quality of discourse and, paradoxically, the ability to think freely. Bullying and hate are the norm, squeezing out reason, kindness and support for free speech. It has dramatically exacerbated tribalism and extremism.

At the same time, states now have more tools than ever before at their disposal to control their populations. Privacy, the best protection of the dissident, is dying. Everything we buy, read and every trip we make can be logged. For China, this is a dream come true. When all cars are electric and networked, the state could simply shut down the vehicles of opponents. When all currency is digital, dictators can track, control, tax and confiscate as they please. Combine all of that with massive progress in facial recognition and AI, and the outcome will be nightmarish. Authoritarian states will become ever harder to overthrow, further tipping the balance of power in their favour.

What of the West? Will we embrace a Chinese-style social credit system in the guise of fighting obesity or saving the planet, and in effect converge with our authoritarian rivals?

All of this takes us to the fourth mega-trend driving the West’s decline: we are turning our backs on the values that made us great. Support for capitalism is dwindling at the very time when every other society has embraced it, and many would rather see mob rule than the rule of law. In the US, the young are less likely to support democratic values than the old. There is growing scepticism about reason and the pursuit of truth. Universities are going back to their obscurantist roots, putting identity politics before knowledge. Many believe meritocracy has gone too far. We are even seeing a resurgence of neo-Lysenkoism, whereby politics trumps science.

The woke ideology is the greatest threat to freedom since communism, and it is gaining ground by the day, fragmenting and dividing society, and pitting group against group better to undermine the West. As Afghanistan burns, the rest of the world is looking on, and laughing at our stupidity.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/08/25/four-mega-trends-condemn-west-irreversible-decline/

Certainly the pendulum is now swinging towards the East, I wonder where this leaves the UK in 20 years time?

 

[Angrez Pakistani]

The only reason people are winging and moaning about leaving Afghanistan is not because they actually care about Afghans or their civil rights. Afghan women were being raped and killed by ‘western’ forces, their children being raped by warlords who allied with the ‘western’ forces. Afghan men and women majority of them being civilians were killed in drone strikes by these same forces. They only care about Afghans right now because the pullout symbolises the decline of western hegemony over these regions. These people don’t actually care about human rights. If they did Guantanamo bay wouldn’t be operating at this time.

 

[sweep_shot]

Western civilization is declining with a doubt. West has made a lot of blunders over the past 50-60 years.

They got involved with/in too many countries which came back to bite them. They made it difficult for themselves.

Also, radical leftism probably contributed to west's decline.

 

[mazkhan]

Just need to look at the 2 leaders

Senile joe and bumbling buffoon that is boris

Prior to that the TV personality trump

And then you can easily see their decline and becoming a joke In front of China and russia

 

[Colorblind Genius]

The only reason people are winging and moaning about leaving Afghanistan is not because they actually care about Afghans or their civil rights. Afghan women were being raped and killed by ‘western’ forces, their children being raped by warlords who allied with the ‘western’ forces. Afghan men and women majority of them being civilians were killed in drone strikes by these same forces. They only care about Afghans right now because the pullout symbolises the decline of western hegemony over these regions. These people don’t actually care about human rights. If they did Guantanamo bay wouldn’t be operating at this time.

Exactly!
And not to mention, during the American occupation and their puppet govts, Afghanistan continuously hovered over the number one spot on the list of most corrupt countries in the world.

Rape, human trade of females, bacha bazi, petty crimes, homicides, dishonesty, extra corrupt govt officials, prostitution, poppy cultivation, illegal drugs, I mean you name it and it flourished in Afghanistan in the last 20 years.

This surely doesn’t mean that Talibans are any angels but the point is, no one actually cared about Afghani people.

And the donkeys braying in the Indian media about the “welfare of Afghani women” should look into their own house first.

 

[WhenSultansBowled]

It used to be believed that the entire world would converge voluntarily on a Western model. We would wear the same clothes, drive the same cars and eat at McDonald’s. Capitalism would lead to the universal adoption of democracy, human rights and secularism, buttressed by institutions such as the UN: this Hegelian version of history was as deluded as the Marxist nonsense it replaced.

The 'west' thought, after an invasion of 20 years, everyone in Afghanistan would want "jeans", "McDonald's" and "democracy"... but besides their Puppets (who were only interested in filling their pockets) everyone else, great majority of ANA including, said a resounding "NO!" to their ideology.

This isn't only the victory of "Taliban the militants" it is a victory of the Afghan ideology over Western ideology. A philosophical victory for Taliban (besides a military one).

The Western propaganda created Matrix has been shattered <--- wrote the same thing weeks ago and many were triggered !

In a 3rd world city of Millions like Kabul, they have created the whole circus at airport to assure themselves and for a face-saving narrative. In any big city in the world (many Eastern European including), people would rush to the airports if someone offered them a new life in USA/Canada/Germany/UK...

The rejection to invaders' ideology is natural and this is how human mind works. If Taliban start killing people, ally with pedophile drug lords, snuggle drugs, treat women like crap, ban women education etc. then locals will overthrow them and a someone who does good by people will replace them.

It is what it is. It is how it is and it is how it always has been.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I was ready to dismiss that article when I read the thread title, but worryingly, a lot of it sounds very plausible. Our arrogance and lust to dominate the globe has provided us with great lifestyles, but I wonder how our values and morals will hold up if the money ever runs out?

 

[Robert]

[
Certainly the pendulum is now swinging towards the East, I wonder where this leaves the UK in 20 years time?

We will be back in the EU with an inferior deal than the one we walked away from. USA will have pulled back from the world behind her oceans, while even now California and Texas talk of secession. An EU Army will guard a fortified Europe. Climate change will see tens of millions of starving refugees heading for Europe. We will let some in as our population is in decline but the rest will be kept back behind a ring of steel.

Russia will be broke as European economies switch to renewables and nuclear, with reduced need for their gas and oil.

China will be leading superpower, dominating the Pacific Rim, seizing Taiwan and threatening South Korea.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Great article but I fully disagree with the conclusion. The woke ideology is at its very worst a nuisance and an annoyance but it is not responsible for the downfall of the west.

The current decline was sparked by the rise of neoconservative thinking - the philosphers, politicians and writers that ascribe and promote this ideology are not the woke left. Nor are the woke left the biggest supporters of zionism and opponents to the Palestinian struggle.

The neocons and their feelings of superiority over all other cultures, traditions and values are what has got the west into this mess.

Britain can still distance itself from the current situation by seeking an independent foreign policy.

 

[Tubs]

Capitalism is inherently undemocratic. If you want to democratise the workplace, then you'd be looking at worker co-ops, which are socialist. I know that has become a dirty word to many people, but that is largely due to the masses not knowing what it really is, and the right's obsession with fear-mongering.

The incessant whining about 'woke' culture is worse than the 'woke' culture itself. We shouldn't take the crazy twitter liberals as any representation of leftism.

To suggest that the West is going to be anything like Chinese-style authoritarianism is simply ludicrous. However, here's an interesting example. The biggest attack on democracy in the West in recent years was orchestrated by the supporters of none other than Donald Trump (who supported it until he realised how bad it looked on him). Someone who quite a few on this forum support. Now, that is very interesting, isn't it?

 

[JaDed]

Innovation is nurtured within civilizations. I think before Covid China could had come close but Covid has helped American tech to leapfrog once again, similar to 2008 crash, the rapid innovation that has happened in last 1 year in USA is remarkable to say the least.

Ofcourse there will be consequences but it depends on whether you see glass half full or empty.

Chinese innovation index is still at 25..and there is a reason for that as to why its that low.( for such a giant economy)

Europe, USA ,Aus will still drive the innovation along with South Korean and Japanese.

Regional powers leave no impact as such on world, India was a regional power in early 70s what does that achieve?

I would say rise of countries such as Serbia, Estonia would happen within EU.

Irrespective we can always revist this thread like we can that of 2009ish during the American crash.

 

[Robert]

The only reason people are winging and moaning about leaving Afghanistan is not because they actually care about Afghans or their civil rights. Afghan women were being raped and killed by ‘western’ forces, their children being raped by warlords who allied with the ‘western’ forces. Afghan men and women majority of them being civilians were killed in drone strikes by these same forces. They only care about Afghans right now because the pullout symbolises the decline of western hegemony over these regions. These people don’t actually care about human rights. If they did Guantanamo bay wouldn’t be operating at this time.

Yeah, we do.

If NATO soldiers do that, they will be court-martialled.

Am I to assume you want Afghan women to have no education, no jobs and no function except to make babies for the men they are chattel to?

 

[GoUgandaCranes]

Yeah, we do.

If NATO soldiers do that, they will be court-martialled.

Am I to assume you want Afghan women to have no education, no jobs and no function except to make babies for the men they are chattel to?

Individual people living in these states have humanity and morals but all the states that are considered Western are devoid of any humanity from the perspective of state policy. If they did, they'd start a grand reconciliation and help the countries that they have looted and created their empires on.

I'd like to see Belgium reinvent Africa and pay for crimes against the Africans.

I'd like to see England reimburse in cash all their colonies and return the looted money. Heck, they aren't even willing to give back the artifacts that they stole let alone anything else.

I'd like to see France stop leeching her African colonies even now, let alone talking about the damage done in the past.

The less said about the USA the better. It's a state that's actively involved to destabilize 75% of the countries on the planet. I mean they associate aid to poor countries on the condition that countries like Somalia, Kenya will actually take the garbage that America produces.

Talk about humanity when all of the stated above is done.

 

[Robert]

Individual people living in these states have humanity and morals but all the states that are considered Western are devoid of any humanity from the perspective of state policy. If they did, they'd start a grand reconciliation and help the countries that they have looted and created their empires on.

I'd like to see Belgium reinvent Africa and pay for crimes against the Africans.

I'd like to see England reimburse in cash all their colonies and return the looted money. Heck, they aren't even willing to give back the artifacts that they stole let alone anything else.

I'd like to see France stop leeching her African colonies even now, let alone talking about the damage done in the past.

The less said about the USA the better. It's a state that's actively involved to destabilize 75% of the countries on the planet. I mean they associate aid to poor countries on the condition that countries like Somalia, Kenya will actually take the garbage that America produces.

Talk about humanity when all of the stated above is done.

No Western government will ever formally reparate ex-colonies as they would get voted out at the next election as soon as the voters see their living standards reduce.

France is still receiving payments from Haiti for the revolution there - that should have stopped a century ago.

But foreign aid is sent. This is about as much as western governments can do and remain in power. Conservatives hate foreign aid and UK has just cut it, which is a huge shame and makes no sense as it reduces British soft power.

 

[Robert]

Capitalism is inherently undemocratic. If you want to democratise the workplace, then you'd be looking at worker co-ops, which are socialist. I know that has become a dirty word to many people, but that is largely due to the masses not knowing what it really is, and the right's obsession with fear-mongering.

The incessant whining about 'woke' culture is worse than the 'woke' culture itself. We shouldn't take the crazy twitter liberals as any representation of leftism.

To suggest that the West is going to be anything like Chinese-style authoritarianism is simply ludicrous. However, here's an interesting example. The biggest attack on democracy in the West in recent years was orchestrated by the supporters of none other than Donald Trump (who supported it until he realised how bad it looked on him). Someone who quite a few on this forum support. Now, that is very interesting, isn't it?

I would be in agreement with mutual societies and co-ops to bring control over services closer to the people who use them instead of to rich shareholders far away.

Liberals aren’t left in Europe. The word liberal has been debased from its true meaning by Bush 41 and screeching American shock-jocks.

‘Woke’ just means being able to see points of view other than your own. Conservatives don’t understand that because they cannot. That is why they are conservatives.

 

[GoUgandaCranes]

No Western government will ever formally reparate ex-colonies as they would get voted out at the next election as soon as the voters see their living standards reduce.

France is still receiving payments from Haiti for the revolution there - that should have stopped a century ago.

But foreign aid is sent. This is about as much as western governments can do and remain in power. Conservatives hate foreign aid and UK has just cut it, which is a huge shame and makes no sense as it reduces British soft power.

Your own statement proves my point, some individuals within these states have humanity but as a whole and as a state, these states have nothing to do with humanity and are just enterprises to create more wealth for a few privileged people.

About the aid, it's not something that helps the poor countries, in fact, all it does is create a rift within the community where the aid is being distributed. Foreign aid is cancer for developing countries and it's used as a control tool by more powerful ones.

 

[Technics 1210]

We will be back in the EU with an inferior deal than the one we walked away from. USA will have pulled back from the world behind her oceans, while even now California and Texas talk of secession. An EU Army will guard a fortified Europe. Climate change will see tens of millions of starving refugees heading for Europe. We will let some in as our population is in decline but the rest will be kept back behind a ring of steel.

Russia will be broke as European economies switch to renewables and nuclear, with reduced need for their gas and oil.

China will be leading superpower, dominating the Pacific Rim, seizing Taiwan and threatening South Korea.

I don't see the UK rejoining the EU, simply because there will be no EU. Hungary and Poland are already making moves to leave, and as for the EU army, I guess Farage was spot on.

Why do you think climate change will see an influx of refugees into Europe, is climate change just happening outside of Europe? Whats to say Europeans will not flee?

The special relationship has cost us dearly. Sure in the short term it paid dividends, but in the long term the UK has paid the price. We borrowed from the future and have zero ability in paying any of our debts.

We should be building bridges not setting them on fire at the behest of the USA.

 

[Technics 1210]

I would be in agreement with mutual societies and co-ops to bring control over services closer to the people who use them instead of to rich shareholders far away.

Liberals aren’t left in Europe. The word liberal has been debased from its true meaning by Bush 41 and screeching American shock-jocks.

‘Woke’ just means being able to see points of view other than your own. Conservatives don’t understand that because they cannot. That is why they are conservatives.

The word racist has also been debased. As for woke culture, it isn't just about an alternate view, it also about being offended at everything possible - including disagreement in views. We now live in a polarised society thanks to woke culture.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I don't see the UK rejoining the EU, simply because there will be no EU. Hungary and Poland are already making moves to leave, and as for the EU army, I guess Farage was spot on.

Why do you think climate change will see an influx of refugees into Europe, is climate change just happening outside of Europe? Whats to say Europeans will not flee?

The special relationship has cost us dearly. Sure in the short term it paid dividends, but in the long term the UK has paid the price. We borrowed from the future and have zero ability in paying any of our debts.

We should be building bridges not setting them on fire at the behest of the USA.

Nigel Farage? The guy is like a walking tabloid, great at rabble rousing, but disappears when it's time to implement working solutions. If Britain has such a great future without the EU maybe the payoff will be down the line a few years, because right now it doesn't look so great. Wages going up, staff shortages in many sectors including health and the service industry, and HGV drivers threatening to go on strike to get higher pay. Feels like we are going back to the '70s to me. Supermarkets with empty shelves and warnings it might get worse before Christmas.

What is the vision exactly for Farage and co? Rule Britannia is the dream being sold, but it feels more like Little England as of now.

 

[Technics 1210]

Nigel Farage? The guy is like a walking tabloid, great at rabble rousing, but disappears when it's time to implement working solutions. If Britain has such a great future without the EU maybe the payoff will be down the line a few years, because right now it doesn't look so great. Wages going up, staff shortages in many sectors including health and the service industry, and HGV drivers threatening to go on strike to get higher pay. Feels like we are going back to the '70s to me. Supermarkets with empty shelves and warnings it might get worse before Christmas.

What is the vision exactly for Farage and co? Rule Britannia is the dream being sold, but it feels more like Little England as of now.

Yes Farage who stated long before there were plans for an EU army (prior to Brexit vote). Clegg the pleb and Remainers denied the claim etc etc. He was right, and vindicated.

As for your assessment, don't forget one factor, Covid and the effect it had on supply chains, moreover the love for American monetary policy that is QE.

And no, just because I state Farage was right doesn't mean I support him.

 

[Technics 1210]

Foriegn aid is a euphemism for hush money.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Yes Farage who stated long before there were plans for an EU army (prior to Brexit vote). Clegg the pleb and Remainers denied the claim etc etc. He was right, and vindicated.

As for your assessment, don't forget one factor, Covid and the effect it had on supply chains, moreover the love for American monetary policy that is QE.

And no, just because I state Farage was right doesn't mean I support him.

Covid supply chain issues were last year, they have little to do with the current crisis, or with the service sector and shortage of staff in those areas I mentioned. That is more to do with the EU migrants going back, and local home bred duffers not wanting to work certain jobs.

 

[rhony]

Good post. The Chinese Era is going to start soon in the next couple of decades. They have the right environment and stability to dominate. Don't forget their cunning nature as well. It's inspirational how efficient they have become in every walk of life. It's almost robotic. Democracies can't implement the same policies. Dictators aren't ambitious enough to implement them. Religious nations aren't educated enough. Chinese have found the sweet spot!!

 

[Technics 1210]

Covid supply chain issues were last year, they have little to do with the current crisis, or with the service sector and shortage of staff in those areas I mentioned. That is more to do with the EU migrants going back, and local home bred duffers not wanting to work certain jobs.

Fast food chains have reported certain items are off the menu due to supply shortages; the electronic industry cannot supply goods due to semiconductor shortages. This is new from this month. Supply chain issues were not last year, but are current year. We were still in lockdown last year.

As for shortage of staff, this is a myth. There's plenty of home bred workers available given the retail, travel, and hospitality sectors were decimated due to covid.

Even so, there's nothing preventing former 'EU workers from working in the UK.

As for shortages in Health sector, you do realise more and more nurses and doctors prefer to work in the private sector instead of public sector simply because there's more money to be made? You can blame capitalism for this, not Brexit.

 

[Robert]

I don't see the UK rejoining the EU, simply because there will be no EU. Hungary and Poland are already making moves to leave, and as for the EU army, I guess Farage was spot on.

Why do you think climate change will see an influx of refugees into Europe, is climate change just happening outside of Europe? Whats to say Europeans will not flee?

The special relationship has cost us dearly. Sure in the short term it paid dividends, but in the long term the UK has paid the price. We borrowed from the future and have zero ability in paying any of our debts.

We should be building bridges not setting them on fire at the behest of the USA.

Yes, I said Atlanticism seems dead now. Trump-Biden-Biden-Trump, both America First.

The EU might kick Poland and Hungary out as their authoritarian values do not jibe with the liberal EU, but as long as France and Germany believe in the EU it will continue.

(There was a time when I hoped that the EU would collapse like a star into a hard neutronium core of UK, France, Germany, Benelux, Denmark, Ireland and Sweden, with the outer layers of underperforming economies getting blasted off and going into orbit round the core as second-class members. That might still happen, or a version of it.)

The deserts will expand, and there will be more crop failures due to ecosystem collapse and more and more frequent and unpredictable storms. This will disproportionately affect the developing world. Fleeing starvation the people will head for the more temperate and resilient Europe.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Fast food chains have reported certain items are off the menu due to supply shortages; the electronic industry cannot supply goods due to semiconductor shortages. This is new from this month. Supply chain issues were not last year, but are current year. We were still in lockdown last year.

As for shortage of staff, this is a myth. There's plenty of home bred workers available given the retail, travel, and hospitality sectors were decimated due to covid.

Even so, there's nothing preventing former 'EU workers from working in the UK.

As for shortages in Health sector, you do realise more and more nurses and doctors prefer to work in the private sector instead of public sector simply because there's more money to be made? You can blame capitalism for this, not Brexit.

That's all well and good, but we are seeing empty shelves now. We are seeing staff shortages in the service and hospitality sector now. If capitalism is to blame for staff shortages in the health sector, where is the solution which was promised by Farage and co. now we have achieved Brexit?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Just an additional consideration, our greatest inventor of the current era, James Dyson moved his manufacturing production to Malaysia and Singapore following Brexit, I wonder what the Farage perspective would be on that?

 

[Technics 1210]

That's all well and good, but we are seeing empty shelves now. We are seeing staff shortages in the service and hospitality sector now. If capitalism is to blame for staff shortages in the health sector, where is the solution which was promised by Farage and co. now we have achieved Brexit?

No empty shelves in my hood.

What was promised? Can you be more specific?

From what I can tell planes didn't fall out the sky; and covid absolutley derailed any progression post Brexit.

Still good to see Brexit ports being setup: as an island we sure need more trading hubs after selling our soul and shutting our manufacturing bases as a consequence to joining the EU and embracing Reagonomics.

 

[Technics 1210]

Yes, I said Atlanticism seems dead now. Trump-Biden-Biden-Trump, both America First.

The EU might kick Poland and Hungary out as their authoritarian values do not jibe with the liberal EU, but as long as France and Germany believe in the EU it will continue.

(There was a time when I hoped that the EU would collapse like a star into a hard neutronium core of UK, France, Germany, Benelux, Denmark, Ireland and Sweden, with the outer layers of underperforming economies getting blasted off and going into orbit round the core as second-class members. That might still happen, or a version of it.)

The deserts will expand, and there will be more crop failures due to ecosystem collapse and more and more frequent and unpredictable storms. This will disproportionately affect the developing world. Fleeing starvation the people will head for the more temperate and resilient Europe.

I think EU will collapse to the original 6 members - Germany, France, Italy, Netherlands, Belgium, and Luxembourg.

Europe has already seen record heat waves to the point of concern, deserts have seen rainfall, maybe the climate is now rebalancing itself.

 

[OMB]

I was ready to dismiss that article when I read the thread title, but worryingly, a lot of it sounds very plausible. Our arrogance and lust to dominate the globe has provided us with great lifestyles, but I wonder how our values and morals will hold up if the money ever runs out?

Actually I think a lot of that money came by abandoning a set of values and morals specifically so as to dominate the world and provide for a great lifestyle.

 

[Robert]

No empty shelves in my hood.

What was promised? Can you be more specific?

From what I can tell planes didn't fall out the sky; and covid absolutley derailed any progression post Brexit.

Still good to see Brexit ports being setup: as an island we sure need more trading hubs after selling our soul and shutting our manufacturing bases as a consequence to joining the EU and embracing Reagonomics.

More money for the NHS (a lie, there is less).

“Let’s take back control” of our borders to keep out immigrants (truth, but nasty).

No border down the Irish Sea (a lie).

No loss of freedom of movement (a lie).

British freeports existed when the UK was an EU member, at Liverpool, Southampton, Tilbury and Glasgow Prestwick Airport. The government let the legislation governing them elapse. They mean zero tariffs on goods arriving - though if those are assembled into other goods, foreign ports may apply import tariffs. The EU has 72 freeports too, in twenty countries.

 

[Robert]

I think EU will collapse to the original 6 members - Germany, France, Italy, Netherlands, Belgium, and Luxembourg.

Europe has already seen record heat waves to the point of concern, deserts have seen rainfall, maybe the climate is now rebalancing itself.

I can’t see the Irish leaving - EU membership is far too good a thing for them, setting the Celtic Tiger loose.

Neither the Danes nor Swedes.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

No empty shelves in my hood.

What was promised? Can you be more specific?

From what I can tell planes didn't fall out the sky; and covid absolutley derailed any progression post Brexit.

Still good to see Brexit ports being setup: as an island we sure need more trading hubs after selling our soul and shutting our manufacturing bases as a consequence to joining the EU and embracing Reagonomics.

Farage ran for office. You can look up his manifesto if you want to know what the upsides of Brexit were. But Farage aside I don't see manufacturing returning, I already gave the example of Dyson moving their factories to the east post-Brexit.

If you don't see empty shelves in your hood, maybe try reading some newspapers. You might have missed the bit about HGV driver shortages and knock on effects to the supply chain. Lorry drivers are now being offered more than lawyers according to an article in the Sunday Times today, and that's to deal with the shortages which you can't see (yet). Not that I am against better pay for lorry drivers, but all of this will lead to inflation and round and round we go.

 

[Technics 1210]

More money for the NHS (a lie, there is less).

“Let’s take back control” of our borders to keep out immigrants (truth, but nasty).

No border down the Irish Sea (a lie).

No loss of freedom of movement (a lie).

British freeports existed when the UK was an EU member, at Liverpool, Southampton, Tilbury and Glasgow Prestwick Airport. The government let the legislation governing them elapse. They mean zero tariffs on goods arriving - though if those are assembled into other goods, foreign ports may apply import tariffs. The EU has 72 freeports too, in twenty countries.

More money for the NHS has been a promise at every election. Every year we're told the NHS needs money, long before Brexit.

Irish border, is taking control of our borders.

Loss of FoM wouldn't be a problem if EU citizens paid for the relevant IDs

Have to start building more ports after the stunt Macron played by shutting down the EU tunnel thereby holding the UK to ransom. Backfired for him and France.

The only lie is democracy. When true democracy was in motion, the Remainers, along with respective politicans didn't accept the result. Then we wonder why the West is in decline, why society is divided.

Where the promise of democracy and riches? All I see is debt in the West.

 

[ElRaja]

the west is going nowhere, the united states and the other western countries are still ahead of any other country (group of countries) when it comes to technology.

despite the rise of the east, china faces significant demographic challenges as its population ages over the next few decades, they have no doubt made very impressive economic progress over the past few decades, but that was facilitated by a young cheap labour force selling goods to a vastly richer west.

the requirement to orient itself towards a domestic consumption economy with an aging population will require greater financialisation of the chinese economy. less making stuff, more rent seeking on the global investments it is making right now.

what we are likely to see is a return to a multi polar world of competing interests rather than a hegemonic western control of global politics, which may not be a bad thing. lets not forget the west's global hegemony was funded by exorbitant fiscal deficits which have seen great increases in income inequality in the west.

as far as the uk goes it all depends on when the penny drops that as internationalisation recedes having a high tech manufacturing industry is absolutely vital for survival. but even if that doesn't happen the average house will pbly cost £1.5 million in twenty years and everyone will feel rich regardless.

also wokeness is a symptom, the underlying condition is political apathy, there are no real political hills to proverbially plant your flag on, so people just make up stuff to take political views on to feel conscientious. its a side effect of the immensely high living standards in the west.

 

[Technics 1210]

Farage ran for office. You can look up his manifesto if you want to know what the upsides of Brexit were. But Farage aside I don't see manufacturing returning, I already gave the example of Dyson moving their factories to the east post-Brexit.

If you don't see empty shelves in your hood, maybe try reading some newspapers. You might have missed the bit about HGV driver shortages and knock on effects to the supply chain. Lorry drivers are now being offered more than lawyers according to an article in the Sunday Times today, and that's to deal with the shortages which you can't see (yet). Not that I am against better pay for lorry drivers, but all of this will lead to inflation and round and round we go.

Let it go. Farage is history. We're out. How fickle and weak minded you must be. Farage is a nobody, was never a MP, he was just a political commentator who had stints on radio.

I suggest you read newspapers too and stop spinning the media yarns. The same Times (and Telegraph) talk of worldwide supply chain problems due to covid.

What next? You going to lay the blame on Brexit for Covid?

Don't care about lorry drivers. Boo hoo. Reminds me of the time the North was decimated during Thatcher years. Were you weeping then?

No sacrifice no gain. Move on.

 

[Technics 1210]

Austerity breeds facism and crime. Had the UK not been a poodle of Amreeka then the fall out from the 2008 banking crisis wouldn't have lead to Brexit.

People lost their homes, jobs, family all because of the Western banking system - greed is good right? I bet those reading who made money from their properties didn't give a **** about the poor during the boom years. No of course not.

This lead to the rise of rightwing populus politics, and UKIP winning around 4 Million seats in the GE cos people had enough of the Tories and Labour lies. When you got nothing you got nothing to lose.

Cameron **** his brick, and then promised the people a vote of EU membership to simply in an attempt to suppress/destroy the threat of the right. Rest is history.

Austerity. Austerity. Austerity. Forget the newspapers, go read history books instead of blaming a bus.

 

[Technics 1210]

I can’t see the Irish leaving - EU membership is far too good a thing for them, setting the Celtic Tiger loose.

Neither the Danes nor Swedes.

They will leave when the Euro becomes worthless.

 

[Angrez Pakistani]

Yeah, we do.

If NATO soldiers do that, they will be court-martialled.

Am I to assume you want Afghan women to have no education, no jobs and no function except to make babies for the men they are chattel to?

The one person who exposed the ‘Western’ war crimes around the world is now in jail and the people who led the ‘western’ world to war are enjoying their lives without any consequences. They are in fact having the time of their life with book deals and contracts from the private sector. I recommend googling Eric Prince before claiming that the ‘west’ actually cares about human rights.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Let it go. Farage is history. We're out. How fickle and weak minded you must be. Farage is a nobody, was never a MP, he was just a political commentator who had stints on radio.

I suggest you read newspapers too and stop spinning the media yarns. The same Times (and Telegraph) talk of worldwide supply chain problems due to covid.

What next? You going to lay the blame on Brexit for Covid?

Don't care about lorry drivers. Boo hoo. Reminds me of the time the North was decimated during Thatcher years. Were you weeping then?

No sacrifice no gain. Move on.

I was actually, decimating the mining industry decimated my region. It's bouncing back now due to work from home meaning region doesn't matter so much for now, but once the keyboard and sales pitches dry up, real work will need to be done. Buildings will need to be built, toilets will need to be fixed, resources will need to be mined. What's your plan, keep importing foreigners outside of the EU to do the dirty work?

 

[Technics 1210]

I was actually, decimating the mining industry decimated my region. It's bouncing back now due to work from home meaning region doesn't matter so much for now, but once the keyboard and sales pitches dry up, real work will need to be done. Buildings will need to be built, toilets will need to be fixed, resources will need to be mined. What's your plan, keep importing foreigners outside of the EU to do the dirty work?

Building construction, toilet fixing, mining resources is dirty work?

My plan is to ban foreigners from buying property in the UK, ban mortgages and introduce fixed term interest free payments, ban people from buying more than 1 home, and wipe all consumer and personal debt.

When a teacher, police officer, nurse, etc can afford a home that’s when the country will economically be stable.

What’s your plan?

 

[Robert]

The one person who exposed the ‘Western’ war crimes around the world is now in jail and the people who led the ‘western’ world to war are enjoying their lives without any consequences. They are in fact having the time of their life with book deals and contracts from the private sector. I recommend googling Eric Prince before claiming that the ‘west’ actually cares about human rights.

This has nothing to do with my post and the question I posed in it.

 

[Robert]

Yes Farage who stated long before there were plans for an EU army (prior to Brexit vote). Clegg the pleb and Remainers denied the claim etc etc. He was right, and vindicated.

As for your assessment, don't forget one factor, Covid and the effect it had on supply chains, moreover the love for American monetary policy that is QE.

And no, just because I state Farage was right doesn't mean I support him.

He wasn’t. There were plans for tighter integration of NATO state forces who are European state forces. Which was desirable IMO given Trump’s unreliability.

Now with the USA turning inwards I think the Euro Army is a good idea and I would like UK to have close ties with it. Were we still in the EU we would be bossing it alongside the French, as the two strongest militaries.

 

[Robert]

Building construction, toilet fixing, mining resources is dirty work?

My plan is to ban foreigners from buying property in the UK, ban mortgages and introduce fixed term interest free payments, ban people from buying more than 1 home, and wipe all consumer and personal debt.

When a teacher, police officer, nurse, etc can afford a home that’s when the country will economically be stable.

What’s your plan?

It is, I came home covered in dust when I was on construction sites.

The firm I worked for imported Portuguese “direct labour” - they would come in on a three month contract, stay in dormitories, put up a building and then leave for the next job somewhere else in Europe. Now they will have to be replaced with British workers, which means a need for education and specific upskilling.

 

[Yossarian]

Yeah, we do.

If NATO soldiers do that, they will be court-martialled.

Are yo sure of that? How many US and UK military personnel have been prosecuted and jailed for their actions in Iraq and Afghanistan, actions that included torture, killing unarmed civilians, killing captured 'terrorists' etc?

Furthermore, are you suggesting that of all the hundreds of thousands of NATO servicemen who have served in Afghanistan and Iraq, none have committed rapes against local women, especially when soldiers have been accused of rapes by fellow female soldiers in barracks in the UK? If they're capable of raping and molesting fellow female soldiers whilst in the UK, are they suddenly going to become saints when serving in foreign countries when they're part of the occupying forces?

Am I to assume you want Afghan women to have no education, no jobs and no function except to make babies for the men they are chattel to?

Whilst no one wishes to see that, I think that the west is pushing that angle to hide their own failings.

When locals work with occupying forces to help them with their occupation, which often includes deaths of innocent civilians, they are usually called traitors. And here we are calling them heroes and going all out to bring them out.

Just putting things into perspective.

 

[Technics 1210]

It is, I came home covered in dust when I was on construction sites.

The firm I worked for imported Portuguese “direct labour” - they would come in on a three month contract, stay in dormitories, put up a building and then leave for the next job somewhere else in Europe. Now they will have to be replaced with British workers, which means a need for education and specific upskilling.

I don't think he meant it that way. Travelling to central London is also dirty work considering the kak on tubes etc. Stacking shelves at Tescos is also dirty work if we're talking about dust etc.

 

[Technics 1210]

He wasn’t. There were plans for tighter integration of NATO state forces who are European state forces. Which was desirable IMO given Trump’s unreliability.

Now with the USA turning inwards I think the Euro Army is a good idea and I would like UK to have close ties with it. Were we still in the EU we would be bossing it alongside the French, as the two strongest militaries.

Bossing it? Along with the French? 2 strongest militaries? By what measure?

This isn’t 1900 anymore. UK military is finished. It took 2 Russian ‘tourists’ for a chemical attack to take place in the UK. Couldn’t stop them, what was the retaliation? Ah yes, expel Russian diplomats. That’s some strength.

What makes you think the UK can stop missiles from Russia? Or a nationwide hack? Heck if we believe the stories Russia were controlling and rigging our elections while we were in the EU.

USA will come to help? No, we are on our own, and it has squat to do with being outside the EU and has everything to do with putting pur eggs in one basket - The Special Relationship.

 

[Robert]

Bossing it? Along with the French? 2 strongest militaries? By what measure?

This isn’t 1900 anymore. UK military is finished. It took 2 Russian ‘tourists’ for a chemical attack to take place in the UK. Couldn’t stop them, what was the retaliation? Ah yes, expel Russian diplomats. That’s some strength.

What makes you think the UK can stop missiles from Russia? Or a nationwide hack? Heck if we believe the stories Russia were controlling and rigging our elections while we were in the EU.

USA will come to help? No, we are on our own, and it has squat to do with being outside the EU and has everything to do with putting pur eggs in one basket - The Special Relationship.

We had our eggs in two baskets. We were diplomatic bridge between USA and EU. That gave us influence. But we burned the EU bridge, and Biden appears to have burned the Atlantic bridge due to our treatment of NI.

By what measure: nukes. We have Trident and France her Force de Frappe. We cannot stop Russian missiles, but they will not launch because they cannot stop ours.

We also have the most motivated and aggressive conventional armed forces - enough to deter a Crimea-style land-grab by Russia in the Baltic, for example.

 

[Technics 1210]

We had our eggs in two baskets. We were diplomatic bridge between USA and EU. That gave us influence. But we burned the EU bridge, and Biden appears to have burned the Atlantic bridge due to our treatment of NI.

By what measure: nukes. We have Trident and France her Force de Frappe. We cannot stop Russian missiles, but they will not launch because they cannot stop ours.

We also have the most motivated and aggressive conventional armed forces - enough to deter a Crimea-style land-grab by Russia in the Baltic, for example.

Our nukes cannot be launched without approval from USA.

https://www.politico.eu/article/uk-trident-nuclear-program/

 

[Robert]

Our nukes cannot be launched without approval from USA.

https://www.politico.eu/article/uk-trident-nuclear-program/

The article does not say that. It says we lease the missiles. As the US leases RAF Greenham Common. But USAF planes can take off without British permission, and we can launch Trident without US permission - the missiles are under sole control of the submarine captain at sea.

No government would buy weapons it cannot use without permission of another government. RN boats have no “firing codes” like in Hollywood movies - which in any event refer to command and communication protocols, not the ability to of a captain to launch. The RN boats trail out a ULF antenna ever so often, checking for certain broadcasts. If these cease then the captain opens his safe and reads the “letter of last resort” from the PM.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Europe and America are in decline, their time is up soon. China and Russia will take over.

US power is based on hegomoney esp with the Petrodollar, which will collapse in the next couple of decades if not sooner.

 

[Robert]

Europe and America are in decline, their time is up soon. China and Russia will take over.

US power is based on hegomoney esp with the Petrodollar, which will collapse in the next couple of decades if not sooner.

China yes.

Not Russia, which has half of UK GDP and whose wealth is based on gas and oil which is becoming obsolete.

India is another coming power, about to overtake UK as sixth largest economy.

 

[Technics 1210]

The article does not say that. It says we lease the missiles. As the US leases RAF Greenham Common. But USAF planes can take off without British permission, and we can launch Trident without US permission - the missiles are under sole control of the submarine captain at sea.

No government would buy weapons it cannot use without permission of another government. RN boats have no “firing codes” like in Hollywood movies - which in any event refer to command and communication protocols, not the ability to of a captain to launch. The RN boats trail out a ULF antenna ever so often, checking for certain broadcasts. If these cease then the captain opens his safe and reads the “letter of last resort” from the PM.

The clue is in the word lease

From UK government website.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...t/uk-nuclear-deterrence-what-you-need-to-know

It's a shocker, I know.

 

[KingKhanWC]

China yes.

Not Russia, which has half of UK GDP and whose wealth is based on gas and oil which is becoming obsolete.

India is another coming power, about to overtake UK as sixth largest economy.

Russia have a new pipline to Germany/Europe. Its far from obselete.

India is a 3rd world nation, only due to his huge size and population is has some economic power.

Interest based nations will all collapse over time.

The danger is these fading empires of the west will likely go to war , nuclear war before they go down.

 

[Technics 1210]

UK nukes subservient to USA command

https://www.defensenews.com/smr/nuc...wont-be-impacted-by-american-warheads-future/

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-56256173

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/defence-and-security-blog/2014/jul/01/trident-nuclear-weapons-uk

 

[Technics 1210]

Here's the reality. Russia annexed Crimea. What did the West do? The mighty West with all its political and economical clout? Wait for this - Zilch

Such is the auqaat of the West. The West merely bullys the weak into submission, even then fails (Afghanistan), but when a heavyweight like Russia comes into play, it's time to expel its diplomats.

West is finished. West will only wage war on the weak. Bully.

 

[JaDed]

Lol @ West bashing its like 2008 all over again

 

[Robert]

The clue is in the word lease

From UK government website.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...t/uk-nuclear-deterrence-what-you-need-to-know

It's a shocker, I know.

I leased a car once. Drove it all over the place.

Again, nothing in that article says we can’t launch by ourselves You’re sticking up links you haven’t read through.

Why would a government spend £BBB on a system they cannot control?

 

[Robert]

Here's the reality. Russia annexed Crimea. What did the West do? The mighty West with all its political and economical clout? Wait for this - Zilch

Such is the auqaat of the West. The West merely bullys the weak into submission, even then fails (Afghanistan), but when a heavyweight like Russia comes into play, it's time to expel its diplomats.

West is finished. West will only wage war on the weak. Bully.

What should they have done? Ukraine isn’t a NATO state. Not NATO’s concern. Russia won’t try to land-grab a NATO state.

 

[Technics 1210]

I leased a car once. Drove it all over the place.

Again, nothing in that article says we can’t launch by ourselves You’re sticking up links you haven’t read through.

Why would a government spend £BBB on a system they cannot control?

When you lease something it means you do not own it.

I've read the links. I suggest you do, and do some research on who controls UK nukes.

Still, you can disagree, but thr fact is you believe UK can boss it at the global stage - but reality is we cannot. The days of bossing it are well and truly over UK has become a laughing stock.

 

[Technics 1210]

What should they have done? Ukraine isn’t a NATO state. Not NATO’s concern. Russia won’t try to land-grab a NATO state.

Is Iraq a NATO state? Afghanistan? Didn't stop UK sending troops etc etc.

 

[Third_Umpire]

The vast majority of Islamist jihadis who post 4 reasons why the west is dying and pine for shariah law live in the west themselves, enjoy the liberty of speaking their minds and would never dream of living in a Muslim country let alone under shariah law.

Talk is cheap. If the west is dying, leave and go live in the newly created Islamic emigrate of Afghanistan. And enjoy getting your eyes gouged or your head chopped off because your beard wasn’t long enough.

 

[Technics 1210]

The vast majority of Islamist jihadis who post 4 reasons why the west is dying and pine for shariah law live in the west themselves, enjoy the liberty of speaking their minds and would never dream of living in a Muslim country let alone under shariah law.

Talk is cheap. If the weather is dying, leave and go live in the newly created Islamic emigrate of Afghanistan. And enjoy getting your eyes gouged or your head chopped off because your beard wasn’t long enough.

Someone didn't read the OP. It's the West claiming the West is in irreversible decline.

Muppets and sheep - take your pick.