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France - Bans women wearing headscarfs, but allows them to protest topless in public

Itachi said:
Truth depends upon the context. What is truth to you, may not be truth to me.

Jews were the chosen ones. But muslims will disagree to it.

But from neutral point of view, they are.
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Dear brother,

Allah sent prophets to various parts of the world all the time. The final message was delivered which we know all today as Islam. It doesn't mean Islam never existed before. Hope I clarified your doubt.
 
Texaco said:
Dear brother,

Allah sent prophets to various parts of the world all the time. The final message was delivered which we know all today as Islam. It doesn't mean Islam never existed before. Hope I clarified your doubt.
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Does it mean Judaism = islam but only with different prophet?
 
Itachi said:
Does it mean Judaism = islam but only with different prophet?
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It's a bit more complex than that, my dear brother. Speaking in detail on this would derail the thread completely. May I suggest you open a new thread to discuss it ?
 
Texaco said:
Dear brother,

Let's not make it personal, shall we ?

On the other point, without knowing if I live my life by the ideals of Prophet, you are calling me names.

Let us stick to the topic and refute my points logically if you can.

Thank you.
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No comments against your commitment,but we hope you spread true Islam,especially it will helpful if you transform Syria/Iraq etc right now as it will bring world peace.I guess what you are preaching is revolutionary and no one ever heard about such sweet words,don't you think it will make world better if you are able to convince more people??
 
Bakasura said:
No comments against your commitment,but we hope you spread true Islam,especially it will helpful if you transform Syria/Iraq etc right now as it will bring world peace.I guess what you are preaching is revolutionary and no one ever heard about such sweet words,don't you think it will make world better if you are able to convince more people??
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There is no rule which says you have to transform Syria before transforming France. Whats your point ?
 
blackanhyellow said:
Yes Texaco Brother I agree with Bakasura,

Syria and Iraq need your services of preaching truth brother.
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As I said, I don't understand this point of solving the "bigger" problem first before I can attend to the so-called smaller problem.

To remind you, this thread is about France. If you are so concerned about Syria, open a new thread brother.
 
Texaco said:
There is no rule which says you have to transform Syria before transforming France. Whats your point ?
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In France no one is dying also we can use KKhan there but we need your service urgently in Syria/Iraq as it will transform lives.Just imagine the revolution you are going to cause,I don't think there is even words in my key board to express those heavenly feelings.
 
Convict said:
People shouldn't be allowed to cover their heads in public institutions for security reasons.

If the owners of a private venue wish to do the same they should be allowed to.
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Convict said:
The revolution making France better is highly debatable but I digress.

In any case a minority should not enforce their will in the majority.
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Exact same thing i said, Security is the only reason i think can be given to make not covering your face a law and it has nothing to do with religion.

In US if you enter a bank with your face covered then its very likely that someone will draw gun at you. Many gas stations dont serve the customers who either cover their face or dont wear the shirts.
 
Lords said:
Exact same thing i said, Security is the only reason i think can be given to make not covering your face a law and it has nothing to do with religion.

In US if you enter a bank with your face covered then its very likely that someone will draw gun at you. Many gas stations dont serve the customers who either cover their face or dont wear the shirts.
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@bold what are you talking about? Most banks don't have armed security guards. They are not even allowed to have armed security guards.
 
Yossarian said:
Whats Saudi Arabia got to do with FEMEN and women showing their t**s in public in France? Thats like having a thread on the Japanese and whale fishing, and some posters arguing in favour of killing whales on the basis that fox hunting is still legally allowed in Ireland, Australia, France, Canada and Italy.
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That's a fitting reply to people who are diverting the thread from France's atrocious laws to Saudi Arab or Syria.
 
Anfield said:
@bold what are you talking about? Most banks don't have armed security guards. They are not even allowed to have armed security guards.
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No idea about armed guards in India ATM machine rooms have strict instruction about not covering face before entering inside.If people really want to follow their religion they should stay inside home and take help from family/friends in public places.
 
Bakasura said:
No idea about armed guards in India ATM machine rooms have strict instruction about not covering face before entering inside.If people really want to follow their religion they should stay inside home and take help from family/friends in public places.
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No such policy here. However, generally not many women in US cover their faces.
 
Yossarian said:
Whats Saudi Arabia got to do with FEMEN and women showing their t**s in public in France? Thats like having a thread on the Japanese and whale fishing, and some posters arguing in favour of killing whales on the basis that fox hunting is still legally allowed in Ireland, Australia, France, Canada and Italy.
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Then why you combined 2 different topics into one? One is religious symbol ban across all religions,which you conveniently converted as targeting Muslim issue,while other is a generic issue which allows every religion people to remove their clothes if they wanted.
 
Convict said:
People shouldn't be allowed to cover their heads in public institutions for security reasons.

If the owners of a private venue wish to do the same they should be allowed to.
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Anfield said:
@bold what are you talking about? Most banks don't have armed security guards. They are not even allowed to have armed security guards.
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In US people carry guns and at many a occasions i have seen guns drawn. And I am not sure if banks are not allowed to have armed security guards.
Even grocery stores have armed security guards.
 
Navdeep Srivastava said:
Is headscarves are banned in France or in some institutions? Just asking please somebody clarify.
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Headscarves (ie not just full face covering) are banned in schools, and for public setvice employees. This applies to students, teachers and parents.
The French charity worker is now part of the protest group Mamans Toutes Égales, or Mothers All Equal. Based in Montreuil outside Paris, it has blocked school coaches, boycotted outings and staged street demonstrations in protest at the growing number of mothers in headscarves being barred from school trips

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/22/frances-headscarf-war-attack-on-freedom
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Note: Headscarves and not just full face coverings in above quote.


.................................

Full face covering is a sparate issue. It is illegal to wear a face-covering veil or other mask in public places such as the street, shops, museums, public transportation, and parks

ie A women cannot walk down the street with her face covered by a veil. But she can walk around in public with her top off and showing her t**s.
 
Yossarian said:
Headscarves (ie not just full face covering) banned in schools, and for public setvice employees. This applies to students, teachers and parents.
Note: Headscarves and not just full face coverings in above quote.


.................................

Full face covering is a sparate issue. It is illegal to wear a face-covering veil or other mask in public places such as the street, shops, museums, public transportation, and parks

ie A women cannot walk down the street with her face covered by a veil. But she can walk around in public with her top off and showing her t**s.
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Why you highlighting only head scarves they banned all religious symbols including Sikh caps which doesn't cover face any way.
 
Lords said:
In US people carry guns and at many a occasions i have seen guns drawn. And I am not sure if banks are not allowed to have armed security guards.
Even grocery stores have armed security guards.
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People can have guns for their protection, They can't point out at others. They would be arrested and charged. I have never been to a single grocery store in my life in US that has armed security guards.

Of course security guards can carry guns but can't be done without permission. And there is a strict criteria for permission.
 
Bakasura said:
Then why you combined 2 different topics into one? One is religious symbol ban across all religions,which you conveniently converted as targeting Muslim issue,while other is a generic issue which allows every religion people to remove their clothes if they wanted.
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Where did I say "targeting Muslim issue"? Stop lying.
 
Yossarian said:
Where did I say "targeting Muslim issue"? Stop lying.
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Then where is the problem? They banned all religious symbols from schools /public spaces & allowed freedom for all religions equally to remove clothes if they want.

You may think why can't Muslim woman can't wear their scarves but then some other religions will star asking their requirements..either you ban everything or you allow everything.
 
Anfield said:
People can have guns for their protection, They can't point out at others. They would be arrested and charged. I have never been to a single grocery store in my life in US that has armed security guards.

Of course security guards can carry guns but can't be done without permission. And there is a strict criteria for permission.
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Obviously you cannot point gun at someone for no reason. And security guards can take preemptive actions if feel necessary.

I have never been to a single grocery store in my life in US that has armed security guards.
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You man have missed guards at Walmart. They have armed security guards and especially when they carry cash from counter to the repository.

Gas station people carry guns and you can see it in many failed robbery videos.

In fact most of the bars and clubs i have been to had armed guards.
 
Bakasura said:
Then where is the problem? They banned all religious symbols from schools /public spaces & allowed freedom for all religions equally to remove clothes if they want.

You may think why can't Muslim woman can't wear their scarves but then some other religions will star asking their requirements..either you ban everything or you allow everything.
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Since the main point of the thread is FEMEN and women legally allowed to be topless in public, and you are perfectly happy with that, then say so. The issue is not about "Muslim women", but about the way male dominated societies attitudes are towards women.

If women are allowed to go around topless in public, then I can foresee, at some point in the future, some French men also demanding the right to be allowed to go around in public with their dangly bits hanging out. Would you be in favour of that too?
 
Bakasura said:
Their country their rules.

You are yet to understand properly why head scarves are banned.As I repeatedly saying headscarves banned along with religious symbols so how you can compare with another topic where all religion people allowed equally to hang their t*ts out??
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A woman wearing a headscarf is not always about religion. And yet it's banned under the pretext of religion (see earlier post re-places where where headscarves are banned). If you believe that it's ok for mothers in headscarves (not just veils) being barred from school trips (see post #179 above) then it's a sorry state of affairs.
 
Yossarian said:
Since the main point of the thread is FEMEN and women legally allowed to be topless in public, and you are perfectly happy with that, then say so. The issue is not about "Muslim women", but about the way male dominated societies attitudes are towards women.

If women are allowed to go around topless in public, then I can foresee, at some point in the future, some French men also demanding the right to be allowed to go around in public with their dangly bits hanging out. Would you be in favour of that too?
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How many times I have to repeat ? Their country their rules...personally I don't like such displays (imagine what can happen if they allowed such things in Sub continent).

But my issue is you combined 2 different topics,one religious ban across religions & one generic approval again across all religions.Why you have to pick a Anti religious ban to prove a point?? If head scarves are a stand alone ban then what your saying should have sensible but these are separate issues.
 
Yossarian said:
A woman wearing a headscarf is not always about religion. And yet it's banned under the pretext of religion (see earlier post re-places where where headscarves are banned). If you believe that it's ok for mothers in headscarves (not just veils) being barred from school trips (see post #179 above) then it's a sorry state of affairs.
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Rules should be same...similar argument can be done about Sikh caps if they really want.
 
Bakasura said:
How many times I have to repeat ? Their country their rules...personally I don't like such displays (imagine what can happen if they allowed such things in Sub continent).
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1. "Their country their rules" eh? In which case, why are you, an Indian, posting on a Pakistani cricket forum, and arguing about a topic on France? Surely, going by your own logic, it's none of your business either?

2. I've lived in France, paid French taxes, and still go to France on a regular basis, and as such have every right to comment upon the issue.

But my issue is you combined 2 different topics,one religious ban across religions & one generic approval again across all religions.Why you have to pick a Anti religious ban to prove a point?? If head scarves are a stand alone ban then what your saying should have sensible but these are separate issues.
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Let me repeat it to you for the umpteenth time, it is the likes of you who keep bringing up religion into the discussion over and over again, as I said, like some demented hunchback of Notre dame stuck in a time warp. In contrast, I've made numerous posts in this thread in trying to bring the discussion back on track and away from religion.
 
Yossarian said:
1. "Their country their rules" eh? In which case, why are you, an Indian, posting on a Pakistani cricket forum, and arguing about a topic on France? Surely, going by your own logic, it's none of your business either?

2. I've lived in France, paid French taxes, and still go to France on a regular basis, and as such have every right to comment upon the issue.

Let me repeat it to you for the umpteenth time, it is the likes of you who keep bringing up religion into the discussion over and over again, as I said, like some demented hunchback of Notre dame stuck in a time warp. In contrast, I've made numerous posts in this thread in trying to bring the discussion back on track and away from religion.
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No I am supporting France's rights...every country should be allowed to practice rights which doesn't affect people's lives/livelihood...

You can comment anything but France have right to refuse your opinion.

Religion is bought because head scarve is banned as a religious symbol so there is the religious connection,I don't know in any other way subjects are related.
 
Bakasura said:
No I am supporting France's rights...every country should be allowed to practice rights which doesn't affect people's lives/livelihood...

You can comment anything but France have right to refuse your opinion.

Religion is bought because head scarve is banned as a religious symbol so there is the religious connection,I don't know in any other way subjects are related.
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Yes exactly
We as kashmiris got the right to demand freedom for indians illigaly occupied kashmir
Kashmir belong to us indians have no right to occupy it
 
tahir_dj said:
Yes exactly
We as kashmiris got the right to demand freedom for indians illigaly occupied kashmir
Kashmir belong to us indians have no right to occupy it
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You can demand but we don't have to give...did I said you can't protest?

By the way there are different threads for Kashmir issue...
 
Also OP should read subjects he posts bit more.This not France allowing every woman to go nude but dismissing a case against 3 woman who protested against a accused.
 
Bakasura said:
Also OP should read subjects he posts bit more.This not France allowing every woman to go nude but dismissing a case against 3 woman who protested against a accused.
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Never heard about setting a precedent in law?
 
Bakasura said:
You can demand but we don't have to give...did I said you can't protest?

By the way there are different threads for Kashmir issue...
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On what basis indian are illigaly occupying Kashmir than. Indians call themselve world largest democracy. Is it actuly for real or only in media just for chest thumping.
I dont have to go to kashmiri threads to talk about kashmir i can talk about it any where.

you did not understand what OP was trying to say and started jumping to conclusion saying their country their rule. This is what happen when you don't read the article and start jumping in.
 
Yossarian said:
Since the main point of the thread is FEMEN and women legally allowed to be topless in public, and you are perfectly happy with that, then say so. The issue is not about "Muslim women", but about the way male dominated societies attitudes are towards women.

If women are allowed to go around topless in public, then I can foresee, at some point in the future, some French men also demanding the right to be allowed to go around in public with their dangly bits hanging out. Would you be in favour of that too?
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Men in France can already walk around topless.
 
tahir_dj said:
On what basis indian are illigaly occupying Kashmir than. Indians call themselve world largest democracy. Is it actuly for real or only in media just for chest thumping.
I dont have to go to kashmiri threads to talk about kashmir i can talk about it any where.

you did not understand what OP was trying to say and started jumping to conclusion saying their country their rule. This is what happen when you don't read the article and start jumping in.
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You can keep talking about what you want but I don't have to respond :)))
 
Yossarian said:
Never heard about setting a precedent in law?
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What precedent? Here 3 woman protested against a criminal ,this may be immoral for many people,but court released them without charging...actually it's good decision why should they go to jail for valid protest??

Now if court allowed everyone indecency in schools/hospitals/public places for random stuff then you have a valid point.

Actually you jumped gun by comparing this to a total religious ban as this not giving permission for indecency but acquittal in specific case.
 
tahir_dj said:
On what basis indian are illigaly occupying Kashmir than. Indians call themselve world largest democracy. Is it actuly for real or only in media just for chest thumping.
I dont have to go to kashmiri threads to talk about kashmir i can talk about it any where.

you did not understand what OP was trying to say and started jumping to conclusion saying their country their rule. This is what happen when you don't read the article and start jumping in.
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Don't worry brother. Certain posters don't like to contribute positively to the thread. They will just like to insult Islam by bringing religion into it. When pushed back to wall, they will change the topic.
 
Men are allowed to walk around topless in many countries, so why not women too?
 
Texaco said:
If it were so, why do Muslim women oppose the ban on hijab ? They themselves like to dress decently. It may not suit your western ideals but muslim world still has some morality left unlike west which promotes indecency in their women.
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Stop lying women are forced to Wear niqab and you have religious police in Saudia and Iran at least that forces them to wear niqab in Saudia or head scarves in Iran.

Sent from my SM-G925I
 
Their country, their rules.

We should respect it and not whine.
 
Couch Cricketer said:
Stop lying women are forced to Wear niqab and you have religious police in Saudia and Iran at least that forces them to wear niqab in Saudia or head scarves in Iran.

Sent from my SM-G925I
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They don't force women. Those who do aren't true Muslims. Prophet Mohammad soab always respected his women.
 
Texaco said:
They don't force women. Those who do aren't true Muslims. Prophet Mohammad soab always respected his women.
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You should not bring prophet and religion in to it unless you are prepared to hear opposing opinions about them.
Lets just keep it to veiled and topless women.
 
'Muslim world still has some morality left'

Yes, the type of morality practiced in Saudi Arabia.
 
Speaking of morals, if I am not wrong, North Korea is the only non-Muslim state amongst the top 10 most corrupt states in the world.
 
Mamoon said:
'Muslim world still has some morality left'

Yes, the type of morality practiced in Saudi Arabia.
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As per your logic their country their rule so shouldn't this be applied to Saudi Arabia too or it is too hard for you to think like that?
Why have 1 opinion for others but when it comes to muslim world its a totally different opinion.
 
tahir_dj said:
As per your logic their country their rule so shouldn't this be applied to Saudi Arabia too or it is too hard for you to think like that?
Why have 1 opinion for others but when it comes to muslim world its a totally different opinion.
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Going top less is a choice, not an obligation.

You would have had a case had being top less was forced.
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
Does that apply to you as well?
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No 'their country their rule' only apply to Western countries or countries other than islamic countries. And as per his logic we should respect.

But when it comes to islamic countrieswe should go full throttle whinging
 
tahir_dj said:
On what basis indian are illigaly occupying Kashmir than. Indians call themselve world largest democracy. Is it actuly for real or only in media just for chest thumping.
I dont have to go to kashmiri threads to talk about kashmir i can talk about it any where.

you did not understand what OP was trying to say and started jumping to conclusion saying their country their rule. This is what happen when you don't read the article and start jumping in.
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India included kashmir via accession treaty. NOT ILLEGALLY.

kashmir had the choice of not to join. But the authorities did join.

Just because you disagree with the accession doesn't make it illegal.
 
Itachi said:
Going top less is a choice, not an obligation.

You would have had a case had being top less was forced.
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The issue is, it spreads immorality and indecency in the society, which is against the code of conduct Allah swt has specified. How can you live in an immoral society?
 
tahir_dj said:
No 'their country their rule' only apply to Western countries or countries other than islamic countries. And as per his logic we should respect.

But when it comes to islamic countrieswe should go full throttle whinging
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Dear brother,

We should peacefully tell them the error of their ways. As Muslims, we should not lose our cool.
 
tahir_dj said:
No 'their country their rule' only apply to Western countries or countries other than islamic countries. And as per his logic we should respect.

But when it comes to islamic countrieswe should go full throttle whinging
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In principle I actually agree with the dictum of "their country their rules" and respecting them, I just don't think it should be uttered by someone who clearly goes against that himself.
 
Lords said:
You should not bring prophet and religion in to it unless you are prepared to hear opposing opinions about them.
Lets just keep it to veiled and topless women.
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I am just clarifying that Islam doesn't force women. Prophet never forced his women, and that is the Islamic way.
 
Texaco said:
The issue is, it spreads immorality and indecency in the society, which is against the code of conduct Allah swt has specified. How can you live in an immoral society?
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God created human nude. After committing sin, the concept of clothes came into pictures. We are ashamed because our forefathers committed sin. Otherwise all people would have stay as God wanted and remain nude.

Who am I to question God's intention?

Infact it goes back to the basics. We are born nude. Top less is half way we are already there.
 
Itachi said:
India included kashmir via accession treaty. NOT ILLEGALLY.

kashmir had the choice of not to join. But the authorities did join.

Just because you disagree with the accession doesn't make it illegal.
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Which accession and when did that happened?
As per UN rule kashmiris needs to be given the right to choose what they want to do with their land.
And which india is denying for last 68 years.
 
Mamoon said:
As a Pakistani, I can object to the rules of my country but not France.
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Then I have to applaud the liberal nature of Pakistan where they are happy to tolerate someone who hates the rules of his own country. Maybe France could learn a lesson on tolerance from Pakistan.
 
tahir_dj said:
As per your logic their country their rule so shouldn't this be applied to Saudi Arabia too or it is too hard for you to think like that?
Why have 1 opinion for others but when it comes to muslim world its a totally different opinion.
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I personally don't care what the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia does in their domain, just like I don't care what French policy is, which is why I find it hypocritical when people criticize France while at the same defend, claim that there is still morality left in the Muslim world which is totally nonsense.
 
Itachi said:
God created human nude. After committing sin, the concept of clothes came into pictures. We are ashamed because our forefathers committed sin. Otherwise all people would have stay as God wanted and remain nude.

Who am I to question God's intention?

Infact it goes back to the basics. We are born nude. Top less is half way we are already there.
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Dear brother,

Allah swt wants both men and women to dress decently.
 
tahir_dj said:
Which accession and when did that happened?
As per UN rule kashmiris needs to be given the right to choose what they want to do with their land.
And which india is denying for last 68 years.
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Instrument of accession, 26th October 1947
 
France - Bans women wearing headscarfs, but allows them to go topless in public

Mamoon said:
I personally don't care what the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia does in their domain, just like I don't care what French policy is, which is why I find it hypocritical when people criticize France while at the same defend, claim that there is still morality left in the Muslim world which is totally nonsense.
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Funny thing is France doesn't made any new law to legalize topless show of women.A court acquitted 3 woman in a protest case but some people here turned into a rights issue.
 
Itachi said:
Yes. But if restrictions are imposed irrelevant of religion, strata of society, i don't see any discrimination.
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Ye than why target only muslims
What aboutt those nuns who cover themselves shouldnt the law be same for everyone not the selected ones?
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
Then I have to applaud the liberal nature of Pakistan where they are happy to tolerate someone who hates the rules of his own country. Maybe France could learn a lesson on tolerance from Pakistan.
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French government should certainly listen to what the French people have to say, since it has declared itself a democratic state.

Francois Hollande was elected, he's not a dictator or a monarch.
 
Mamoon said:
I personally don't care what the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia does in their domain, just like I don't care what French policy is, which is why I find it hypocritical when people criticize France while at the same defend, claim that there is still morality left in the Muslim world which is totally nonsense.
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There is definitely morality left in Muslim world which Western world has given up. For all its faults, saudi arab you will never see topless women there.
 
tahir_dj said:
Ye than why target only muslims
What aboutt those nuns who cover themselves shouldnt the law be same for everyone not the selected ones?
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Shikhs can't wear too. Who says it's only for Muslims?

Even indian women irrespective of religion won't be able to wear dupatta on their head which is a sign of respect.

Don't be under victim mentality.
 
France - Bans women wearing headscarfs, but allows them to go topless in public

Yossarian said:
Why stop at topless? Why not all the way into birthday suits?
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Because there is no context...you really misunderstood this whole issue.Read the news again,even the FEMEN lawyer argued this based on as a 'specific' case rather than a generic case.
 
Texaco said:
I am just clarifying that Islam doesn't force women. Prophet never forced his women, and that is the Islamic way.
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Again, I dont want to involve any religious personality here to make a point to you even though there are tons of things that can be said.

Do you mean a woman can chose not to wear face veil and still be accepted as the part of society if she wants to, especially in Arab countries and there are no law prohibiting them to do so?

Last i heard they just got their right to drive a vehicle and vote.
 
tahir_dj said:
Ye than why target only muslims
What aboutt those nuns who cover themselves shouldnt the law be same for everyone not the selected ones?
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I would assume it is though. Maybe nuns are no longer allowed to wear hijabs in public either.
 
Lords said:
Again, I dont want to involve any religious personality here to make a point to you even though there are tons of things that can be said.

Do you mean a woman can chose not to wear face veil and still be accepted as the part of society if she wants to, especially in Arab countries and there are no law prohibiting them to do so?

Last i heard they just got their right to drive a vehicle and vote.
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If you have to understand Islam, you have to go back to the prophet. Culture and religion are different.
 
Itachi said:
I have no issues with that. God intended that way.

Clothes are already a implication of sin.
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Yes, in the old days the Karma Sutra was celebrated in India. I don't know why the became all bashful in the last two centuries. Perhaps we'll see Indians walking around starkers in Mumbai over the next few years.
 
tahir_dj said:
By some authorities and no one knows in that authority who was their.
It wasn't by the people of the land who it belong to.
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If the king isn't the authority, then who will be?

All other states acceded same way. Kashmir was no different.
 
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