What's new

France: Teacher beheaded, police shoot dead suspected killer

^ Another one more or less blaming the teacher.

I was looking back at the old Charlie Hedo threads and its shocking to see how many posters were blaming the cartoonists rather than the killer and the same ones are here on this thread smh.

I mean if you're just explaining your side and your grievances about this situation that doesn't mean you're saying what happened to the teacher was right

I think what he said was perfect outside of debates this is a very controversial thing to do so just don't do it what's so hard to understand

and that definitely doesn't mean people should go on a killing spree but a law against this "satire" would be a good decision imo but we cant take law into our own hands
 
No one is blaming the teacher. We are just stating the obvious.

It is not freedom of speech if you can say whatever you want about my religion and the moment I question yours I get arrested.

And that is exactly what is happening around the world. It’s open season when it comes to criticising Islam, but then at the same time, you can’t question/criticise jews, challenge LGBT nonsense, kill cows for consumption etc.

Freedom of speech cannot be applied to pick and choose scenarios.

you can do all of this in US that's why I don't have a big problem with this situation happening here because its a principled stance where everything can be touched because of freedom of expression

but the picking and choosing in Europe is disgusting and a bit bigoted
 
Did Macron say freedom of expression in a country that has laws against holocaust denial? What a joke.

Macron is the product of the Rothchilds and his arguments are twice his age.

France is Europe's cesspit, and quite rightly. Cannot wait till the 1st Jan 2021.
 
and that definitely doesn't mean people should go on a killing spree but a law against this "satire" would be a good decision imo but we cant take law into our own hands

why would you have a law against satire, no one has a problem with satire, who are you making this law for?.
 
There are laws which protect Jews sentiments. You cannot question the Holocaust, you cannot criticise Jews, doing so gets you labelled as anti-semitic.

It is about time similar laws are introduced to prevent people from insulting Islamic sentiments outside of genuine debate.

These cartoons served no purpose except to insult and incite such reactions.

Just like killing or eating a cow in India would lead to people being offended when it really is just an animal and is eaten worldwide, yet if you are suspected of killing or eating if you get lynched.
In some countries you can’t deny holocaust . I don’t agree with that low. You can criticize jews all you want Mel brooks whole career is based on making fun of Jews. However nobody had ever been killed for denying the Holocaust or criticizing the Jews I 💭
 
why would you have a law against satire, no one has a problem with satire, who are you making this law for?.

In a thread related France and Muhammad PBUH cartoon caricatures

I sure as hell wouldn't be talking about banning Dave Chappelles comedy would I?
 
In a thread related France and Muhammad PBUH cartoon caricatures

I sure as hell wouldn't be talking about banning Dave Chappelles comedy would I?

Banning cartoons or satire is not going to solve the problem, in fact it would intensify the problem.
 
why would you have a law against satire, no one has a problem with satire, who are you making this law for?.

I agree with you Gilly, no one has a problem with satire. No one has a problem with freedom of speech either, we all value the right of people to speak freely against injustice.
 
So you would accept a law that says you cannot criticize or mock football players then..

I will answer this, if you first answer the question I asked.

What value does mocking someone else's religious figure add to the society?
 
I will answer this, if you first answer the question I asked.

What value does mocking someone else's religious figure add to the society?

I have already answered that question, it gives a person a non violent method of expressing themselves.
 
I will answer this, if you first answer the question I asked.

What value does mocking someone else's religious figure add to the society?

You are completely blind to the bigger picture. Take a step back and consider the vehicle. Freedom of expression is more than just words, it’s about fostering a mindset that embraces free thinking - the freedom to critically think, self reflect, challenge oneself etc for betterment.

This teacher seemingly wanted to stimulate a debate - one if the hallmarks of a good teacher. If this ran its course one of the outcomes could have been a class full of children, the future of French society, appalled at the depiction of a holy figure and spread that message - constructively, with empathy etc.

Instead that outcome is lost and all that is remembered is the atrocity and a continuation of negative views towards Islam.

Knowledge, understanding and empathy will always achieve more than violence. And freedom speech is part of that. That’s it’s value.
 
I have already answered that question, it gives a person a non violent method of expressing themselves.

So you concede you have no answer regarding what value this non violent method of expression adds to the society. You have no answer because it adds no value to society. No benefits. Losses yes. Plenty of that.

I thought liberals stand for love, peace, mutual respect, but some anarchists posing as liberals want to create chaos by promoting religious harrassment by misusing freedom of speech. FoE is a great tool, to be used for good causes. Not to cause religious harrassment. If mocking someone's gender, or sexuality, or race is considered wrong, why is mocking someone's religious considered right? It is not right. The sooner these people understand it, the better it will be for society. Otherwise people will keep dying.
 
You are completely blind to the bigger picture. Take a step back and consider the vehicle. Freedom of expression is more than just words, it’s about fostering a mindset that embraces free thinking - the freedom to critically think, self reflect, challenge oneself etc for betterment.

This teacher seemingly wanted to stimulate a debate - one if the hallmarks of a good teacher. If this ran its course one of the outcomes could have been a class full of children, the future of French society, appalled at the depiction of a holy figure and spread that message - constructively, with empathy etc.

Instead that outcome is lost and all that is remembered is the atrocity and a continuation of negative views towards Islam.

Knowledge, understanding and empathy will always achieve more than violence. And freedom speech is part of that. That’s it’s value.

Free thinking doesn't need to mock others religious beliefs. Also it is the parents right to bring up the child with the values they want. The teachers should stick to teaching school curriculum and not brainwash childen with their own ideology. This unfortunate teacher ( may his soul rest in peace) crossed the boundaries of what a teacher is supposed to do.
 
So you concede you have no answer regarding what value this non violent method of expression adds to the society. You have no answer because it adds no value to society. No benefits. Losses yes. Plenty of that.

I thought liberals stand for love, peace, mutual respect, but some anarchists posing as liberals want to create chaos by promoting religious harrassment by misusing freedom of speech. FoE is a great tool, to be used for good causes. Not to cause religious harrassment. If mocking someone's gender, or sexuality, or race is considered wrong, why is mocking someone's religious considered right? It is not right. The sooner these people understand it, the better it will be for society. Otherwise people will keep dying.

So that is your response, I now await you reasoning as to what value there is in mocking a football player and why it should not be banned.
 
Free thinking doesn't need to mock others religious beliefs. Also it is the parents right to bring up the child with the values they want. The teachers should stick to teaching school curriculum and not brainwash childen with their own ideology. This unfortunate teacher ( may his soul rest in peace) crossed the boundaries of what a teacher is supposed to do.

I disagree completely - where is the malice in what the teacher did? Did he grab a muslim pupil and shove the diagram in their face thus being both insensitive and offensive? From what I recall the teacher did 0ffer Muslim pupils the opportunity to leave if they felt too off-put by the subject matter. That doesn’t strike me as offensive.

You bring up values - tell me the value in taking a persons life and all the subsequent ramifications that will ensue. This is not about freedom of expression, but a serious problem with this mindset of taking a life for something so trivial.
 
Can't decide who's the bigger culprit (s) - The killer or his ardent defenders....
Anyways RIP to the deceased teacher. May the attacker terrorist rot in hell.

Europe needs to let go off it's PCness. These insecure weak hearted jihadis will continue drawing innocent blood if they don't.
 
So that is your response, I now await you reasoning as to what value there is in mocking a football player and why it should not be banned.

Football is a commodity and spectators are its consumers, who have every right to criticize the product or its quality. Also being a football fan is not a major identifier for a person, the way someone's race, religion, ethnicity, gender and sexuality is.
 
Football is a commodity and spectators are its consumers, who have every right to criticize the product or its quality. Also being a football fan is not a major identifier for a person, the way someone's race, religion, ethnicity, gender and sexuality is.

And that is your view, many might think that their sport heros are far more important to them than any religious figure.

You have still to explain what value there is in mocking a football player.
 
He is someone in England I presume, why what has he done or said?.

He got put in jail for incitement to violence. He was quite well known in Australia and the US as well actually as both those countries follow our British press quite dilligently so I am sure you must know what he has done or said.
 
And that is your view, many might think that their sport heros are far more important to them than any religious figure.

You have still to explain what value there is in mocking a football player.

Let those many raise their voice then. I don't want to deal with hypotheticals and thought experiments.

I don't care either ways if mocking football players is allowed or not.
 
The same teacher would not be allowed to question the Holocaust. Why not, if there is no mallace or free thinking? Cos there is a law which prevents not just teachers, but citizens of France from his questioning the holocaust.

So rather than discuss if the teacher was right or wrong, ask why there is one law which protects one faith, while the another law promotes the right to offend other religions under the guise of freedom of expression?
 
Let those many raise their voice then. I don't want to deal with hypotheticals and thought experiments.

I don't care either ways if mocking football players is allowed or not.

If you are going to stop people from mocking your religion then you have to stop people mocking others for whatever they deem important. The laws are not there to protect one section of the community, the laws are there to protect everyone equally. If I cant mock your favorite religious idol then you cant mock my favorite football player.

You say you dont care if mocking football players is allowed or not, so you dont care about others but demand others to respect what you care about.
 
The subject is carefully indirectly being changed into holocaust.

The question that should be asked is direct.

Should a Muslim kill another person if he shows a cartoon of the prophet?

Is it justified to kill someone just because he didn't oblige to the religious norms that Islam sets?

What Quran sets punishment for such actions (in an Islamic state)?

And if indeed same punishment should be follow in non Islamic state.
 
Last edited:
The subject is carefully indirectly being changed into holocaust.

The question that should be asked is direct.

Should a Muslim kill another person if he shows a cartoon of the prophet?

Is it justified to kill someone just because he didn't oblige to the religious norms that Islam sets?

What Quran sets punishment for such actions (in an Islamic state)?

You are the guy who says someone who makes a claim doesn't need to back it up, hence you support the 90% touted in this thread.

Lets deal with the facts, freedom of expression and the law in France. If you don't know about the laws in Europe then don't talk about freedom of expression - other wise you're just another run-of-the-mill Islamophobe.
 
If you are going to stop people from mocking your religion then you have to stop people mocking others for whatever they deem important. The laws are not there to protect one section of the community, the laws are there to protect everyone equally. If I cant mock your favorite religious idol then you cant mock my favorite football player.

You say you dont care if mocking football players is allowed or not, so you dont care about others but demand others to respect what you care about.

You're wrong. Freedom of expression laws are not applied equally in France.
 
You are the guy who says someone who makes a claim doesn't need to back it up, hence you support the 90% touted in this thread.

Lets deal with the facts, freedom of expression and the law in France. If you don't know about the laws in Europe then don't talk about freedom of expression - other wise you're just another run-of-the-mill Islamophobe.

I don't think I have mentioned anything about freedom of expression in the post you quoted.
 
If you are going to stop people from mocking your religion then you have to stop people mocking others for whatever they deem important. The laws are not there to protect one section of the community, the laws are there to protect everyone equally. If I cant mock your favorite religious idol then you cant mock my favorite football player.

You say you dont care if mocking football players is allowed or not, so you dont care about others but demand others to respect what you care about.

Hypotheticals. messi or ronaldo (these are the only names i know as i dont follow football) fans, have they raised any objection against someome mocking their sports hero. Show me where they have. Why aren't they raising their voice?

You are using something that not exists to justify religious harrassment, which exists.
 
I don't think I have mentioned anything about freedom of expression in the post you quoted.

Who said you did? But others are refering to Freedom of expression, and I'm pointing out there is no such thing in France.

You're just disappointed that the killer wasn't a Pakistani.
 
So which religion can you mock in France and which religion cant you mock in France?.

You know the answer; Judaism.

Judaism is offered the extra protection through anti-racist laws. While you can mock Jews, you can also be charged for anti-Semitism, unlike in the case of mocking Islam/Christianity/Hinduism etc.

No other religion is offered this protection in the West.
 
Hypotheticals. messi or ronaldo (these are the only names i know as i dont follow football) fans, have they raised any objection against someome mocking their sports hero. Show me where they have. Why aren't they raising their voice?

You are using something that not exists to justify religious harrassment, which exists.

Of course they havent raised their voice against being mocked (the fans), they know that if they did then they cant mock others.

Do you think if would be fair for supporters of islam to be allowed to mock Trump and Trump supporters to be prevented from mocking islam?.
 
Who said you did? But others are refering to Freedom of expression, and I'm pointing out there is no such thing in France.

You're just disappointed that the killer wasn't a Pakistani.

If I have wrote nothing about freedom of expression, then why you are quoting me for that subject. Quote someone who did.

And again, my post has nothing to do with Pakistan. I haven't even mentioned Pakistan or any other country for a matter of fact.

Quote those who did. You are barking at the wrong tree here.
 
Who said you did? But others are refering to Freedom of expression, and I'm pointing out there is no such thing in France.

You're just disappointed that the killer wasn't a Pakistani.

Find it strange that indian hindus join the atheists and anarchists when it comes to attacking islam, as if they are going to spare hinduism.
 
You know the answer; Judaism.

Judaism is offered the extra protection through anti-racist laws. While you can mock Jews, you can also be charged for anti-Semitism, unlike in the case of mocking Islam/Christianity/Hinduism etc.

No other religion is offered this protection in the West.

I live in the west and have the freedom to mock the jewish religion if I chose. There is no law that prevents me from mocking the jewish religion.
 
Of course they havent raised their voice against being mocked (the fans), they know that if they did then they cant mock others.

Do you think if would be fair for supporters of islam to be allowed to mock Trump and Trump supporters to be prevented from mocking islam?.

1. You have conceded that mocking others religion add no value.
2. You have conceded that there is no demand for football bans to stop mocking of their sports heroes.

All your arguments are based on hypothetical sand and are busted.
 
1. You have conceded that mocking others religion add no value.
2. You have conceded that there is no demand for football bans to stop mocking of their sports heroes.

All your arguments are based on hypothetical sand and are busted.

No I'm just having a discussion with you.
 
I live in the west and have the freedom to mock the jewish religion if I chose. There is no law that prevents me from mocking the jewish religion.

No Gilly. You know what I am refering to. I said you are free to mock but you can also be charged with anti-Semitism. Not the same of other religions in France.

It goes further. You're not allowed to question historical events, such as the Holocaust, linked to Jewish history. It causes offence and is illegal. Is this fair in the name of teaching? Mocking is one thing, but questioning?
 
If I have wrote nothing about freedom of expression, then why you are quoting me for that subject. Quote someone who did.

And again, my post has nothing to do with Pakistan. I haven't even mentioned Pakistan or any other country for a matter of fact.

Quote those who did. You are barking at the wrong tree here.

You don't have to mention anything to see the islamophobe and disgust you have towards 'Islam'.

You made a comment on holocaust denials laws drifitng the discussion, then jumped to the Qu'ran. Seeing as you live in a country that kills Muslims offending Hindus over cows, freedome of expression is way over your head.
 
You don't have to mention anything to see the islamophobe and disgust you have towards 'Islam'.

You made a comment on holocaust denials laws drifitng the discussion, then jumped to the Qu'ran. Seeing as you live in a country that kills Muslims offending Hindus over cows, freedome of expression is way over your head.

Let the mods decide if my post was islamophobic and remove it if it doesn't comply with the guidelines of PP.

And rest, you are talking rubbish with topics that has nothing to do with my post. So I'll stop it here.
 
Let the mods decide if my post was islamophobic and remove it if it doesn't comply with the guidelines of PP.

And rest, you are talking rubbish with topics that has nothing to do with my post. So I'll stop it here.

Who said your post was Islamophobic? Do you read?

You should just stop as you didn't even know of the HD-laws which pour water over your feeble understanding of European law and freedom of expression in the West.

Crawl back under the rock you came from, your little stunts in attacking Islam/Muslim/Pakistan need a change in routine.
 
Find it strange that indian hindus join the atheists and anarchists when it comes to attacking islam, as if they are going to spare hinduism.

I don't find it strange; it's the bandwagon mentality. I pity them more than anything else.

Back to OP. The teacher did not deserved to be killed. He has everyright to question, and stimulate debate. The issue I have is that the same approach cannot, is not, and will never be applied to Judaism, because Jews are offered further protection under HD, and anti-racist laws in France. This is a fact no one can deny.

However, if we look at the case, this isn't the first time someone was killed because they caused offence which is why I just don't see how this is deemed a terror attack. Cold blooded murder yes, terrorist attack? No.

It is dubbed a terrorist attack because it is viewed as an attack on freedom and French values. Well, this is where problem lies, what freedom? The law is clear, mock who you want, what you want, without any fear or hindrance, except for Judaism.
 
The thread seems to have gone off track a bit.

There is a lot of “yeah he shouldn’t have been killed but....”

This was a brazen and horrifying act of extreme violence which should be unequivocally condemned in the strongest possible manner.

The murderer does not represent Islam, he only represents himself. May he burn in Hell.
 
The subject is carefully indirectly being changed into holocaust.

The question that should be asked is direct.

Should a Muslim kill another person if he shows a cartoon of the prophet?

Is it justified to kill someone just because he didn't oblige to the religious norms that Islam sets?

What Quran sets punishment for such actions (in an Islamic state)?

And if indeed same punishment should be follow in non Islamic state.

Back again with a different face.
 
The thread seems to have gone off track a bit.

There is a lot of “yeah he shouldn’t have been killed but....”

This was a brazen and horrifying act of extreme violence which should be unequivocally condemned in the strongest possible manner.

The murderer does not represent Islam, he only represents himself. May he burn in Hell.

Spot on.

And any law that enshrines a penalty for mocking ones faith, and yes that includes Judaism/Holocaust denial, is wrong and should not exist.

Similarly plebs in India that lay waste to people if they eat beaf are equally vile.

I claim to be no expert in faith but my own experience is that the single most valuable gift from ‘higher beings’ is that of life. And so to take a life, is as far removed from religion/faith as possible. And I really struggle to reconcile how anyone can take things to that extreme and on that note, how people try and find ways to justify it.

There is no justification. Period.
 
The thread seems to have gone off track a bit.

There is a lot of “yeah he shouldn’t have been killed but....”

This was a brazen and horrifying act of extreme violence which should be unequivocally condemned in the strongest possible manner.

The murderer does not represent Islam, he only represents himself. May he burn in Hell.

Agreed. By the same token I don't think this French teacher represented the ordinary people of France, I am sure the vast majority of them wouldn't dream of presenting abusive caricatures of the Prophet PBUH to school children. I fervently hope he wasn't misled into taking such a confrontational approach assuming it was his national duty.
 
The thread seems to have gone off track a bit.

There is a lot of “yeah he shouldn’t have been killed but....”

This was a brazen and horrifying act of extreme violence which should be unequivocally condemned in the strongest possible manner.

The murderer does not represent Islam, he only represents himself. May he burn in Hell.

We should not just stop at unequivocal condemnation. Should go beyond and ask questions, what value does mocking someone's religion add to the society. What benefit. If we keep denying having an honest discussion about it, and just want people to stop at condemnation, the problem will remain.
 
Religious harassment should be unequivocally condemned, just like harassment based on race, ethnicity, gender and sexuality is condemned. In fact religious harassment should be the first in the list to be banned, as it is the single most important identity for many.
 
We should not just stop at unequivocal condemnation. Should go beyond and ask questions, what value does mocking someone's religion add to the society. What benefit. If we keep denying having an honest discussion about it, and just want people to stop at condemnation, the problem will remain.

I’d be up for getting involved in that discussion, but only when a consensus of unequivocal condemnation for murder has first been reached. Some people in this thread have not even got to that point yet. I’ll wait and see if their states of thinking can evolve before coming back in.
 
Agreed. By the same token I don't think this French teacher represented the ordinary people of France, I am sure the vast majority of them wouldn't dream of presenting abusive caricatures of the Prophet PBUH to school children. I fervently hope he wasn't misled into taking such a confrontational approach assuming it was his national duty.

It really isn't a big deal in the West, unless you're a Muslim of course.

You seem to be proving James' point here.

He is allowed to show the pictures, and it shouldn't be this shocking thing. Just as it would be nowhere near as shocking in Poland to show offensive caricatures of Shiva, Krishna, etc (must confess, my knowledge of Hinduism is very limited, but you get the picture). When the topic of freedom of speech is concerned, I don't see how showing the pictures is inappropriate.

Also, I am against the protection that Jews, and the holocaust, has in speech, due to my principles of freedom of speech. I suspect that the other poster is against it for more nefarious reasons, but that's not the topic of discussion.
 
I’d be up for getting involved in that discussion, but only when a consensus of unequivocal condemnation for murder has first been reached. Some people in this thread have not even got to that point yet. I’ll wait and see if their states of thinking can evolve before coming back in.

it is fine if you morality is held hostage by extremist supporters. Just be aware that only condemnation is not the end of the discussion and the solution needs the proponent of free speech to ask honest questions from themselves.
 
Religious harassment should be unequivocally condemned, just like harassment based on race, ethnicity, gender and sexuality is condemned. In fact religious harassment should be the first in the list to be banned, as it is the single most important identity for many.

Religion isn't immutable. You can't help being your race, ethnicity or gender (I anticipate the trans argument being used as a counter, but let's not go there). You can convert from religion as you want. It is not the same. Should we ban the criticism of political philosophies, or philosophers? Why don't we execute everyone who insults Plato, as I revere him as a god? Do you see how ridiculous that sounds?
 
Religious harassment should be unequivocally condemned, just like harassment based on race, ethnicity, gender and sexuality is condemned. In fact religious harassment should be the first in the list to be banned, as it is the single most important identity for many.

Religious harassment is banned, laws prevent you from harassing anyone for anything. The teacher was not ridiculing anyone, he was not harassing anyone.
 
Who hasn't condemend the murder?

Why is this being reported as a terrorist attack?

Save this condemnation of the murder malarky. You could have the entire Muslim population condeming this murder but it will make no difference.
 
It really isn't a big deal in the West, unless you're a Muslim of course.

You seem to be proving James' point here.

He is allowed to show the pictures, and it shouldn't be this shocking thing. Just as it would be nowhere near as shocking in Poland to show offensive caricatures of Shiva, Krishna, etc (must confess, my knowledge of Hinduism is very limited, but you get the picture). When the topic of freedom of speech is concerned, I don't see how showing the pictures is inappropriate.

Also, I am against the protection that Jews, and the holocaust, has in speech, due to my principles of freedom of speech. I suspect that the other poster is against it for more nefarious reasons, but that's not the topic of discussion.

I have no problem with him showing offensive caricatures personally, hope he and his family are at peace with his decision.
 
Agreed. By the same token I don't think this French teacher represented the ordinary people of France, I am sure the vast majority of them wouldn't dream of presenting abusive caricatures of the Prophet PBUH to school children. I fervently hope he wasn't misled into taking such a confrontational approach assuming it was his national duty.

the ordinary people of france may not dream of presenting such caricatures, but id think they would (or a majority of em) defend his right to do so.
 
Religious harassment should be unequivocally condemned, just like harassment based on race, ethnicity, gender and sexuality is condemned. In fact religious harassment should be the first in the list to be banned, as it is the single most important identity for many.

It is, expect towards Judaism. If this happened to a Jewish teacher in France, there'd be cries of anti-Semitism, not freedom of expression.

You are free to ridicule any faith without repercussions, except for judaism which is is a fact in the West. (Australia doesn't count as West).
 
This was not only an act of extreme violence — it was also a response that was wholly disproportionate to the initial act of offence. And this is not the first time a religious extremist has done such a thing.

We see this occasional acts in the West where offence has been caused, and often in a very discourteous and horrible way, but in the end people have died for it, and this is not justified or justifiable in any way.

This issue with people getting murdered for supposedly offending religions is heartbreaking and sickening. It needs to stop.

I say this as a religious person myself. There are indeed many enemies of religion who are extremely intolerant and nasty people. But wherever possible — condemn and fight back with your words. Not with knives, swords, firearms and explosives.
 
Athiests and Islamophobes would have more credence if their hatered of religion was uniform. It's not, you have athiests here who love and respect all religions except for Islam. Whether stuck in their bedroom waiting for permission to cross the road, whether fleeing Pakistan, or whether lapping up all the propaganda on MSM.

Look at them. Here defending the right to offend Muslims, Chritians, Hindus etc, but protecting Jews. Brainwashed hypocrits.
 
People need to wake up and realise that freedom of expression is more about respect rather than offence, we wouldn't be seeing such tragedies.
 
Athiests and Islamophobes would have more credence if their hatered of religion was uniform. It's not, you have athiests here who love and respect all religions except for Islam. Whether stuck in their bedroom waiting for permission to cross the road, whether fleeing Pakistan, or whether lapping up all the propaganda on MSM.

Look at them. Here defending the right to offend Muslims, Chritians, Hindus etc, but protecting Jews. Brainwashed hypocrits.

They don't go around chopping heads off of people in this day and age and there is no excuse for that. I'm shocked that you're trying to find one.
 
They don't go around chopping heads off of people in this day and age and there is no excuse for that. I'm shocked that you're trying to find one.

This people. This is the reason why this story is big. The method of killing. Uberkon's is more used to seeing hearing people get shot in his hood for this sort of thing which is why he is shocked.

You don't live in the West. Ignorant of the laws. Jog on.
 
I don't think atheist should be the subject of discussion here since the act itself is propagated by religious extremism.
 
the ordinary people of france may not dream of presenting such caricatures, but id think they would (or a majority of em) defend his right to do so.

Yes I suppose they would. Don't really see any harm in that to be honest.
 
I don't think atheist should be the subject of discussion here since the act itself is propagated by religious extremism.

What was responsible for propagating the act which sparked this heinous religious reaction?
 
This people. This is the reason why this story is big. The method of killing. Uberkon's is more used to seeing hearing people get shot in his hood for this sort of thing which is why he is shocked.

You don't live in the West. Ignorant of the laws. Jog on.

I thought I was an Asylum seeker? Now I don't live in the west? Can you make up your mind please?

I'm shocked because people in this day and age people still use religion to kill people.
 
Yasir Qadhi makes some good points about this incident.

https://www.facebook.com/yasir.qadhi/posts/10158283891068300

On the French Terrorist Attack

A teacher has been killed in France by a lone Muslim after displaying provocative cartoons in his classroom.

Every time such an incident happens, the same groups respond in the same manners. Almost all people have an instantaneous emotional reaction, and very few are able to take a step back and look at multiple facets in this complex narrative.

For Macron and the anti-Muslim Far Right establishment, this isolated attack fits perfectly into their broader narrative of the incompatibility of Islam in their society. Hence, Macron jumps on this murder and politicizes it immediately, fully aware that he is going to rise in the polls as a result.

For disenfranchised Muslims, some of whom are sympathetic to the attack itself, quoting snippets of fiqh works and hadiths out of context is sufficient to legitimize this act. These individuals have neither studied uṣūl al-fiqh (which would preclude vigilante justice in all circumstances) nor give any weight to the concept of maṣāliḥ and mafāsid (as there is no question that the harms to come out of such attacks to the entire Ummah far outweigh the harms of the initial, localized provocation - what would have potentially emotionally hurt a few people in a classroom is now going to backlash on an entire nation's community and policies).

For the conspiracy theorists, any and all such incidents are plots of the CIA, Mossad, or other shadowy nefarious entities that somehow control every leaf that falls. For these people, no Muslim is ever to blame and no extremism actually exists. To compound this narrative, there are undoubtedly some confirmed incidents of government provocation, hence one is genuinely confused as to what to say or not to say; but no person can deny that there is a real trend of extremist thought within our ranks, no matter how small it might be (even as we acknowledge that at times certain entities entrap or entice such behaviour for their own purposes).

For most mainstream Muslims who condemn, the condemnations are simply worthless, and they realize it. No matter what they say or do, the Right has already made up its mind and such 'apologies' fall on deaf ears, and the Left understands that most Muslims are not blood-thirsty killers hence no need for the disclaimers. If they don't condemn, they are called out for their silence; if they do condemn, it's not good enough: damned if you do damned if you don't! As well, the more such mainstream Muslims condemn this terror, the more some members of their own community begin turning away from mainstream body due to the servile nature of these apologies. "Does the Establishment ever apologize to *us* for what they have been doing for the last two centuries?" they bellow. Frankly, such disavowals from the 'moderate' Muslim leaders directly fuel the anger in a small minority, who already view the mainstream Muslim community as being sell-outs and liberal Muslims in the first place. To compound this problem, many mainstream leaders (and even some clerics) don't directly address the fiqh texts involved, and simply proclaim liberalist views as being fully Islamic. There are texts and fiqh issues that need to be discussed frankly- hardly anyone has done that (still!).

What needs to happen is a more balanced narrative: one that takes time to explain, and requires an open heart and mind to listen to. In the absence of either of these two factors, it is almost impossible to begin a fruitful conversation.

This random act is not stemming from a classical ruling on blasphemy. Such provocations against our religion and Prophet have happened constantly around the globe for the last millennia. Rarely are they met with such violence.

This act needs to be understood in the broader socio-political framework of French Muslims vs. the French Establishment. The visceral anger and rage that causes one to 'snap' doesn't happen by reading a fatwa on blasphemy: it comes from a lifetime, or even generations, of systematic dehumanization and rejection. This is not to justify the attack; it is to contextualize it.

Where does one begin? France's invasion of Algeria, and the murdering of over 1.5 million of its inhabitants during its colonization, is just a brief over-looked chapter in French history books. The sheer brutality with which the French dealt with their Algerian citizens needs to be learned by all of us (side note: 'The Battle of Algiers' is a great award-winning movie to introduce this subject). As well, the visceral hatred and disdain that the French had and continue to have, and display at all levels, for the cultures and religion of the very populations that they pillaged and raped, and the second-class citizenship that N. African Muslims occupy in that country to this day, are more direct cause for the violence than any verse or hadith. The blatant hypocrisy of "Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité" as these three factors are constantly denied to the Muslim citizens of that land all exacerbate the feelings of anger, frustration, and disenfranchisement. The ghettoization of the community, and the social barriers placed on them from birth, education, university placement, jobs, promotions, and social status are well known. In my own travels across Europe, and from my anecdotal encounters with European and Western Muslims, I know of no Western society that is more anti-Muslim than France.

Simply put: one cannot discuss or understand (much less prevent) such isolated attacks without a discussion of the broader treatment of North Africans, and even of the religion itself, in that land. Sadly, the knee-jerk reaction from both sides typically further entrenches the stubborn attitudes and reinforces the narrative of each side.

It's a complex situation, and one that does not bode well for civil society unless it is resolved with wisdom, foresight, and a long-term commitment to the greater good of all parties involved.
 
Last edited:
Self insecurity multi fold by religious extremism.

Interesting take on it. Why do you think the French are so insecure in their own identity that you have teachers displaying vulgar images of the Prophet PBUH to school children?
 
Interesting take on it. Why do you think the French are so insecure in their own identity that you have teachers displaying vulgar images of the Prophet PBUH to school children?

I guess we are talking about different subjects.
 
In my opinion, some of the posts posted by various posters (I am surprised that those are multiple in numbers) would create distrust towards Muslim communities in general (unfairly but that's real life) because they are trying to justify the act by giving it an angle that it's a repercussions of the unfair treatment towards Muslim community.

That actually creates a cascaded effect of distrust than solving anything.
 
The thread seems to have gone off track a bit.

There is a lot of “yeah he shouldn’t have been killed but....”

This was a brazen and horrifying act of extreme violence which should be unequivocally condemned in the strongest possible manner.

The murderer does not represent Islam, he only represents himself. May he burn in Hell.

The murderer does not represent Islam. I agree with you, but look around you, all athiests and Islamophobes are saying the killer does represent Islam (and are ultra disappointed the killer wasn't Pakistani). Macron has already dubbed this a terrorist attack. So no matter what condemnation, none of it would make a difference.

We can move on from the brutal murder. Happens everywhere. Lets address cause which is more relevant.

You want offence towards all religions to stop, I agree. Lets start by having a law that protects all religions equally, not just one. Let's also start by the MSM reporting facts and not sensialism with a heavy dose of bias.

Speaking of which, as you alluded to, the pen is mightier than the sword, but when the French and their allies use bombs and bullets, it kind of torpedoes the point.
 
I thought I was an Asylum seeker? Now I don't live in the west? Can you make up your mind please?

I'm shocked because people in this day and age people still use religion to kill people.

You don't have to seek asylum in the West. Which part are you having trouble understanding? There's always HK. 😆

Shocked my foot, you support the innocent killings of Palestinians because of religion. Please try and fool someone else.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top