Freedom in the west as long as you are...

[godzilla]

given the news we hear at the moment of reports of hate crimes, racism, islamophobia, sexism, etc - I was wondering amongst the pp-ers who live in the west whether they have noticed a change in the environment, or in their lives.

theres a danger that we project news of extreme situations that we read, into a reality which does not exist, but its probably more dangerous to ignore a real a present danger by being oblivious to it, or assuming that it is isolated.

I had thought I had pretty much seen everything in the world, but the sheer unbelievable extremes of hate that are being espoused online in recent weeks has been a shock for me. I have no idea whether this is just more visibility afforded by the nature of social media today, for a minority opinion that is and will remain fringe, or whether this minority opinion is seeping into the big real world.

all anecdotes welcome!

 

[Adil_94]

while i see a lot of online bigoted trolls i personally havent noticed any change in peoples attitudes towards me in the last 12 months. Then again being a Uni student i interact with very liberal minded people generally and where i live there is a large British Pakistani and Muslim population so not really any open hostility. Maybe in places where there is a less visible population of minorities i would feel the alleged rise in bigotry. Generally i feel some Westerners are becoming opposed to religious symbols like the Hijab the Niqab because they see it as a visible sign of a lack of integration and not adopting their values and wanting to remain different from society. There is a backlash against multi culturalism in general. I think most are ok with peoples from different races or religions as long as they adopt the values and norms of the society they have moved to.

 

[troodon]

Noticed nothing so far.

Everything is business as usual.

 

[Yossarian]

I live in a small village on the outskirts of a small town in a semi-rural part of England. There are relatively few Asians living in the town and virtually none (other than myself and my family) in the village.

However, in the last few years, a fair few Spanish, Portuguese, Polish, Turkish and Moroccans have moved into the town and set up thriving businesses such as barbers, painters/decorators, convenience stores, take-aways and such like, or started working at the local hospital and in GP surgeries as nurses and other medical staff.

Whilst I have not personally experienced any issues, I have noticed that the locals, particularly amongst the elderly, are much more openly vocal about Brexit. A few of the aforementioned immigrants have commented to me that some of the locals, whilst not being rude or aggressive, aren't as friendly or polite towards them as they used to be prior to Brexit winning. And that in turn is making them apprehensive about the future.

So yes, things have changed, with further changes on the way.

 

[Slog]

The make up and culture of these countries are changing right before their eyes so it is just them expressing their fear

 

[godzilla]

well so far this is consistent with what I'm hearing elsewhere - no big changes in the big cities which for the large part have been tolerant, but marginal increases in sensitivities in rural areas.

it feels like its almost a tipping point, it could revert, remain or get worse..

 

[chacha kashmiri]

the world is changing , evolving forces will always dictate the future
Decadent societies will be struck by natural disasters or teams of ninja assasins, and will be replaced by better societies who take heed of their fallen ancestors
In this way society will weed out the weak and capitalise fully into being more functional and successful

 

[Rayyman]

Nope. Nothing. America is strong. We will not let Trump and his supporters take over!
#HomeoftheBrave

 

[The_KING]

Well of course people's attitude towards Muslims will change. When you have Muslim terrorists blowing themselves up and kill hundreds in some part of the world every week, of course non Muslims will start to have a negative attitude of Muslims and rightfully so. And then you have Muslims who come over to west yet they don't learn to speak English, they still continue to wear their backwards cultural dresses, of course that all contributes to increasing Islamophobia in the west. Unfortunately because of the actions of few Muslims, innocent Muslims such as myself will eventually suffer.

 

[Pakpak]

Nope. Nothing. America is strong. We will not let Trump and his supporters take over!
#HomeoftheBrave

Trump has already taken over.

 

[Markhor]

The vitriol online against Muslims these days is startling. It is being fuelled relentlessly by fake news outlets like Breitbart, Drudge, Daily Mail and The Sun.

Its not just the so-called alt-right from whom hatred and bigotry is to be expected, but supposed liberals like Sam Harris and Bill Maher who also have large followings from more progressive-minded people. I don't mind criticism of Islam, some of which is valid, but these sweeping generalisations of Muslims are very dehumanising.

Where is the pushback ? Young Muslims need to get off Snapchat and Instagram and realise they are in danger of becoming the new African Americans of our time. Its time for political mobilisation.

 

[Bewal Express]

The vitriol online against Muslims these days is startling. It is being fuelled relentlessly by fake news outlets like Breitbart, Drudge, Daily Mail and The Sun.

Its not just the so-called alt-right from whom hatred and bigotry is to be expected, but supposed liberals like Sam Harris and Bill Maher who also have large followings from more progressive-minded people. I don't mind criticism of Islam, some of which is valid, but these sweeping generalisations of Muslims are very dehumanising.

Where is the pushback ? Young Muslims need to get off Snapchat and Instagram and realise they are in danger of becoming the new African Americans of our time. Its time for political mobilisation.

Most of young muslims are too busy taking drugs and acting as some of gangsters from South Central LA and heading towards mediocrity very quickly. Then they will complain that they were hard done by racist white people, but the thing holding them back is the appalling attitude towards education. I dont want muslims to play the victim card, i want to see them educated and leading.

 

[s28]

Personally as I live in London I've not experienced anything directly.
However after the Brexit vote I was visiting Nottingham and got called a "P***" by a couple of white youths. I found this quite shocking. The Brexit vote and attendant 'normalisation' of White Nationalism seemed to give a lot of previously 'passive racists' freedom to give vent to their vile views.

Unfortunately this attitude comes from the 'top'. A major case in point is the Trojan Horse scandal. I have personal experience of this because one of my oldest friends who I attended Primary school alongside was one of the accused teachers. In the Trojan Horse case the full machinery of the State has been used to go after successful 'Muslim' schools. Even the non-Muslim white female head of the main school Lyndsey Clark of Park View Academy and the Sikh deputy Hardeep Saini went from being lauded 'superheads' to being charged alongside Muslim teachers for 'bringing undue religious influence' to bear on pupils !



I attended several of the NCTL Tribunals where even a Government prosecuting barrister admitted in private that the defendant should be found innocent only to find a few hours later the Lay Panel founding the defendant guilty! That finding was later over-turned by the High Court due to procedural irregularities but still those teachers in question face huge personal legal bills and an uphill battle against a biased Establishment press/Education Department/Government

Now it is widely known that Michael Gove the Education Secretary at the time of the Trojan Horse Hoax is an Islamophobic liar who was regarded as being psychotic by his own Tory Government cabinet colleagues!



Tory and Blairite Labour unfortunately collaborated in all this because they believe in the neocon Henry Jackson Society/Douglas Murray idea that 'life should be made tough for Muslims'

Should be more developments about Trojan Horse case soon because it looks like finally after lots of stress and legal fees the Courts are starting to find in favour of the poor oppressed teachers who did so outstandingly well for their pupils.



Tahir Alam someone whose name has been dragged through the mud by the likes of rabid right wing press Daily Mail / Times / Telegraph should have his day in Court soon. You can read more about the case and support him on the following crowdfunding website

https://www.crowdjustice.org/case/justice-for-tahir/

 

[Rayyman]

Trump has already taken over.

In terms of name, yes, but that's about it. The judiciary branch and executive branch are keeping him in check at the moment.

Alhamdulillah

 

[RickyG]

The vitriol online against Muslims these days is startling. It is being fuelled relentlessly by fake news outlets like Breitbart, Drudge, Daily Mail and The Sun.

Its not just the so-called alt-right from whom hatred and bigotry is to be expected, but supposed liberals like Sam Harris and Bill Maher who also have large followings from more progressive-minded people. I don't mind criticism of Islam, some of which is valid, but these sweeping generalisations of Muslims are very dehumanising.

Where is the pushback ? Young Muslims need to get off Snapchat and Instagram and realise they are in danger of becoming the new African Americans of our time. Its time for political mobilisation.

Shouldn't be a surprise. Liberal values and Islamic values don't really go hand in hand. If the liberals are going to go after right-wing Christians, why would Muslims not expect the same treatment?

 

[RickyG]

The only times that I've experienced visible racism living in Canada has been by other immigrants (Arabs and Eastern Europeans). Otherwise, I haven't been racially targeted.

That isn't to say that there are no non-immigrant racists here because there certainly are. However, I find the bigger problem that non-immigrant Canadians have is the number of ghetto ethnic communities that have formed here and a lack of assimilation from many people. It's not so much a racial issue as it is an issue of values. Maybe a lot of people don't see Islam mixing well with traditional "Western values". And you can sort of see their point of view.

 

[DW44]

Shouldn't be a surprise. Liberal values and Islamic values don't really go hand in hand. If the liberals are going to go after right-wing Christians, why would Muslims not expect the same treatment?

Google the regressive left and racism of low expectation.

 

[Robert]

I moved out of London and to the countryside last summer. Things are a lot more chilled out round here.

 

[Mamoon]

What about freedom in the East?

 

[Yossarian]

The only times that I've experienced visible racism living in Canada has been by other immigrants (Arabs and Eastern Europeans). Otherwise, I haven't been racially targeted.

That isn't to say that there are no non-immigrant racists here because there certainly are. However, I find the bigger problem that non-immigrant Canadians have is the number of ghetto ethnic communities that have formed here and a lack of assimilation from many people. It's not so much a racial issue as it is an issue of values. Maybe a lot of people don't see Islam mixing well with traditional "Western values". And you can sort of see their point of view.

I thought that the vast majority of Canadians are immigrants or descendants of immigrants! Oh.. you regard white Canadians (and their descendants), from countries such as France and the UK, as not being immigrants? ... Well, that explains it then.

 

[Pure Evil]

Personally as I live in London I've not experienced anything directly.
However after the Brexit vote I was visiting Nottingham and got called a "P***" by a couple of white youths. I found this quite shocking. The Brexit vote and attendant 'normalisation' of White Nationalism seemed to give a lot of previously 'passive racists' freedom to give vent to their vile views.

Unfortunately this attitude comes from the 'top'. A major case in point is the Trojan Horse scandal. I have personal experience of this because one of my oldest friends who I attended Primary school alongside was one of the accused teachers. In the Trojan Horse case the full machinery of the State has been used to go after successful 'Muslim' schools. Even the non-Muslim white female head of the main school Lyndsey Clark of Park View Academy and the Sikh deputy Hardeep Saini went from being lauded 'superheads' to being charged alongside Muslim teachers for 'bringing undue religious influence' to bear on pupils !

View attachment 73063

I attended several of the NCTL Tribunals where even a Government prosecuting barrister admitted in private that the defendant should be found innocent only to find a few hours later the Lay Panel founding the defendant guilty! That finding was later over-turned by the High Court due to procedural irregularities but still those teachers in question face huge personal legal bills and an uphill battle against a biased Establishment press/Education Department/Government

Now it is widely known that Michael Gove the Education Secretary at the time of the Trojan Horse Hoax is an Islamophobic liar who was regarded as being psychotic by his own Tory Government cabinet colleagues!

View attachment 73064

Tory and Blairite Labour unfortunately collaborated in all this because they believe in the neocon Henry Jackson Society/Douglas Murray idea that 'life should be made tough for Muslims'

Should be more developments about Trojan Horse case soon because it looks like finally after lots of stress and legal fees the Courts are starting to find in favour of the poor oppressed teachers who did so outstandingly well for their pupils.

View attachment 73065

Tahir Alam someone whose name has been dragged through the mud by the likes of rabid right wing press Daily Mail / Times / Telegraph should have his day in Court soon. You can read more about the case and support him on the following crowdfunding website

https://www.crowdjustice.org/case/justice-for-tahir/

To the OP and others complaining about changing perceptions, how about working within the community who have a us vs them perspective? Who see everyone conspiring to get them? Case in point the poster above and his consistent theme across posts.

As they say, be the change you want to see in the world (or just stop complaining)

 

[s28]

Wise words from someone whose username is 'Pure Evil'. Standard of trolls really going downhill.

 

[Pure Evil]

Wise words from someone whose username is 'Pure Evil'. Standard of trolls really going downhill.

Well I am a brown skin in the evil west too and the only time I have felt discriminated is by other brown skins. So it will be better if you amend your world views and recognise no side is perfect

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

To the OP and others complaining about changing perceptions, how about working within the community who have a us vs them perspective? Who see everyone conspiring to get them? Case in point the poster above and his consistent theme across posts.

As they say, be the change you want to see in the world (or just stop complaining)

The grievances he mentioned in the post seemed genuine enough. If you don't think so you could always address them and suggest a solution rather than go down the ad hominem route of targeting the poster rather than the subject.

 

[Pure Evil]

The grievances he mentioned in the post seemed genuine enough. If you don't think so you could always address them and suggest a solution rather than go down the ad hominem route of targeting the poster rather than the subject.

Good to see you agree with the assertion that the Tories and Blairite Labour are out to get you

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Good to see you agree with the assertion that the Tories and Blairite Labour are out to get you

I was referring to the Trojan Horse story which is nothing to do with me. But again you are now making this about a poster rather than the subject itself.

 

[Pure Evil]

I was referring to the Trojan Horse story which is nothing to do with me. But again you are now making this about a poster rather than the subject itself.

And my response was to his assertion. I don't know why you want to jump in without understanding the context

 

[RickyG]

I thought that the vast majority of Canadians are immigrants or descendants of immigrants! Oh.. you regard white Canadians (and their descendants), from countries such as France and the UK, as not being immigrants? ... Well, that explains it then.

I'm assuming you're trying to appear incoherent and simple-minded, because you're truly remarkable at it. That truly was a vapid attempt.

You do realize that there are Canadians that are not first or second generation Canadians but their ancestors have been around for a couple of centuries right? There's Canada outside of Brampton and Mississauga, but you wouldn't know that.

Secondly when I said immigrant I was referring to an Arab (with a very strong Arab accent), a Polish (who had been in the country for 5-7 years) and a Serbian (very old man and clearly not born and raised in Canada, therefore an immigrant). Look up what Polish and Serbian people look like, you might be surprised.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

And my response was to his assertion. I don't know why you want to jump in without understanding the context

Your response was to trivialise a troubling story and go after the poster and his posting history in a manner which suggests that the whole story itself was hokum and a conspiracy theory. If you think it is maybe you could shed some light as to why.

 

[Yossarian]

Secondly when I said immigrant I was referring to an Arab (with a very strong Arab accent), a Polish (who had been in the country for 5-7 years) and a Serbian (very old man and clearly not born and raised in Canada, therefore an immigrant). Look up what Polish and Serbian people look like, you might be surprised.

So glad you have clarified that. I'm sure now any racists or bigot trying to attack or discriminate against an immigrant will be sure to check out that criteria on the individual concerned before attacking or abusing them or discriminating against them.

 

[godzilla]

To the OP and others complaining about changing perceptions, how about working within the community who have a us vs them perspective? Who see everyone conspiring to get them? Case in point the poster above and his consistent theme across posts.

As they say, be the change you want to see in the world (or just stop complaining)

1) where in the op is there a complaint about hanging persepctives?
2) what makes you think that anyone on this thread who has voiced an opinion is not engaged in community integration?
3) what exactly is the value of your complaint here?

 

[Pure Evil]

Your response was to trivialise a troubling story and go after the poster and his posting history in a manner which suggests that the whole story itself was hokum and a conspiracy theory. If you think it is maybe you could shed some light as to why.

I had highlighted the part I found disturbing in his posts, but you chose to ignore it and instead concentrate on the story I have not commented on. Do you agree with his assertions? Or maybe your choice to overlook it, underlines your tacit approval?

 

[godzilla]

if there is a change in public attitude, and xenophobic belief is starting to proliferate into action, presumably this will occur in areas mirroring the right wing vote, which tends not to be big cities. I wonder how many of the people here live in those areas.

either way, I find it very difficult to accept that people on a wide scale can be genuinely hateful, I expect that when this manifests it is scapegoating for some other issue, usually economic. but it seems its very difficult to identify whether changes are in fact taking place on the ground apart from in the big voting events.

there is a definite shift that is identifiable as a few people have mentioned here: in online media, which is a convenient aggregator of fringe opinion, and as others have mentioned here, toward xenophobic government and media jingoism, again I presume as a straw-man to detract from underlying economic rot that is inevitable in the developed west with its decomposing infrastructure, entitled work force, resource poor and high resource consuming economic nature, and the fact that they have run out of the gold they stole from colonial empires four hundred years ago.

the world wars have shown that even good people when placed in extreme circumstances have the ability to suspend reality and assume the identity of pure evil, lets hope that with the infinitely better access we have to information these days we don't see a repetition, and that in terms of day to day living, society does not mimic me manifestation of apartheid that we see elsewhere in the world.

 

[Adil_94]

[MENTION=3393]godzilla[/MENTION] the point about the economic decline in the future is definitely an issue. western europe over the next few decades will lose its position of prominence in the world only America will still remain strong due to its huge manpower and it does have a fair amount of resources like Oil. America China and Russia will be the big players while likes of Britain and France will decline and that will seriously challenge the multi ethnic societies and people will become protectionist although we have developed as a species our innate tribalism is still there under the surface. Western Europe will face teething problems now its role in the world is diminishing.

 

[Adil_94]

[MENTION=3393]godzilla[/MENTION] but ideological issues as well drive this conflict. the battle between liberal values and ultra conservative values.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I had highlighted the part I found disturbing in his posts, but you chose to ignore it and instead concentrate on the story I have not commented on. Do you agree with his assertions? Or maybe your choice to overlook it, underlines your tacit approval?

You quoted a huge post, I did overlook your highlighting because I'm not in the habit of reading huge posts twice. I've had a look back at the couple of lines you've highlighted but in my view you can't look at those in isolation and ignore the context if you want to give a full consideration to the post. Unless of course your intent was to rubbish the story by highlighting selectively?

 

[godzilla]

[MENTION=3393]godzilla[/MENTION] but ideological issues as well drive this conflict. the battle between liberal values and ultra conservative values.

I think you are right. at the very least, its easy for people and movements to gain momentum along ideological lines, in a world devoid of anything really meaningful and where identity has evaporated, band waggon-ing is irresistible.

I take pointed exception though with the reductionist simplification of politics, sociology and philosophy to a single variable, uni-dimensional perspective - the matrix of conviction in any society is for more complex than right vs left, or liberal vs conservative, or libertarian vs authoritarian. I would bet that the vast majority of people are convicted in opinions some of which fall under the liberal banner, and some under the conservative one for example.

if there is a need to simplify, I would guess the most vociferous divide is not liberal/conservative, but is far more along the lines of modernism vs traditionalism.

 

[Pure Evil]

1) where in the op is there a complaint about hanging persepctives?
2) what makes you think that anyone on this thread who has voiced an opinion is not engaged in community integration?
3) what exactly is the value of your complaint here?

Wasn't your post about changing perceptions and the role played by social media? I just pointed out the fringe within the community.

 

[Pure Evil]

There was a ludicrous conspiracy theory mentioned in this thread. Not surprisingly a few of the posters here have taken umbrage for pointing it out. If we are going to deny there exists an us vs them mentality within the desi community, we should really not expect anything better from the others.

 

[Pure Evil]

You quoted a huge post, I did overlook your highlighting because I'm not in the habit of reading huge posts twice. I've had a look back at the couple of lines you've highlighted but in my view you can't look at those in isolation and ignore the context if you want to give a full consideration to the post. Unless of course your intent was to rubbish the story by highlighting selectively?

I take it then you agree with making a ludicrous conspiracy theory, with no data to back it up, as long as it's wrapped under a larger sensible post. Well done captain!!

 

[enkidu_]

The only "change" was the very tiny last few decades : "social democracy" in Europe, phony socialism sold out to the petty bourgeoisie, made sure the working class became "middle class", which basically means became "non revolutionary" ; in the process, the 60s/70s gangs who were attacking "Pak*s" in England or "towelheads" in continental Europe "for fun", were simply being "bourgeoised" - because of the upward social mobility (working class -> middle class), they revolved their life around what capitalism/liberalism has the best to offer : to have a career, a wife, ... and other petty materialistic fantasies, because they didn't want to return to the situation of their parents, or worse, like it's happening to the Generation Z (born 1995-2015), who in few decades will bring fascism back.

But what happened ? Like every time here and there, capitalism is suffering from a systemic economic crisis - the middle class is getting back to the working class mood -, and neo-liberalism, through its supposed "globalization" (which basically means that, instead of an adult White making your T shirt for 5 dollars, you'll get a Third World child-slave making it for 0.5 dollars), has frustrated that eroding middle class, which, apart from its economic security, also feels it loses its essential identities (the nation, namely, but also culture, family, ...) - something you can't buy with a job or an iPhone !

Europe is just returning to its old ways : being the most dangerous continent on earth (modern day Middle East looks like Ibiza for what it has been for the last centuries, EVEN if you forget the two "World" Wars !).

The same for the US, where the last lynching happened in 1981.

Braudel - the greatest French historian of the last century - said that we should keep in mind the longue durée (wider sequence of historical time). That's how you rationalize it.

 

[godzilla]

Wasn't your post about changing perceptions and the role played by social media? I just pointed out the fringe within the community.

you used the word 'complaint'. do you understand what it means?

why haven't you answered the second question?

 

[godzilla]

The only "change" was the very tiny last few decades : "social democracy" in Europe, phony socialism sold out to the petty bourgeoisie, made sure the working class became "middle class", which basically means became "non revolutionary" ; in the process, the 60s/70s gangs who were attacking "Pak*s" in England or "towelheads" in continental Europe "for fun", were simply being "bourgeoised" - because of the upward social mobility (working class -> middle class), they revolved their life around what capitalism/liberalism has the best to offer : to have a career, a wife, ... and other petty materialistic fantasies, because they didn't want to return to the situation of their parents, or worse, like it's happening to the Generation Z (born 1995-2015), who in few decades will bring fascism back.

But what happened ? Like every time here and there, capitalism is suffering from a systemic economic crisis - the middle class is getting back to the working class mood -, and neo-liberalism, through its supposed "globalization" (which basically means that, instead of an adult White making your T shirt for 5 dollars, you'll get a Third World child-slave making it for 0.5 dollars), has frustrated that eroding middle class, which, apart from its economic security, also feels it loses its essential identities (the nation, namely, but also culture, family, ...) - something you can't buy with a job or an iPhone !

Europe is just returning to its old ways : being the most dangerous continent on earth (modern day Middle East looks like Ibiza for what it has been for the last centuries, EVEN if you forget the two "World" Wars !).

The same for the US, where the last lynching happened in 1981.

Braudel - the greatest French historian of the last century - said that we should keep in mind the longue durée (wider sequence of historical time). That's how you rationalize it.

fascinating and excellent.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I take it then you agree with making a ludicrous conspiracy theory, with no data to back it up, as long as it's wrapped under a larger sensible post. Well done captain!!

No I didn't agree with it, so you take it wrong and are jumping to unwarranted conclusions. Although, having read Michael Gove's columns in The Times long before he became Secretary of State for Education I can readily agree he is an Islamophobe. Maybe you can beg to differ if you have read any of his opinion pieces yourself?

 

[s28]

I missed this in the 70s... things definitely aren't this bad

What really struck me about this incident was the viciousness of the attack. Strong young men, ranging in age from 16 to 30, kicking, punching and stamping on a girl who was no older than 18. She was white like them, but they hated her because of her love for a black man. Each one of them was filled with hatred for someone they had never met, and someone who could have been related to one of them. They hated us, and they hated anyone who didn’t hate us, and they had even more hatred for anyone who would dare to love us.

As a young Rastafarian I was taught not to hate, and it wasn’t in my nature to hate – after all, we were listening to music that was all about peace and love and bringing people together. We wanted to be living examples of how people could live together, but we knew that if we did nothing we would be killed on the streets. We knew that the National Front was a Nazi front, so our slogan became “Self-defence is no offence”, and we meant it. To defend ourselves in local communities up and down the country, black and Asian groups organised self-defence groups. These were people who would spring into action, defending (when possible) anyone who was attacked.

In London, we had a group called Red Action, a bunch of leftwingers who operated like an alternative police force. They would come to clubs and gatherings and make sure that the event was not invaded and that people got home safely. There were no mobile phones so they would communicate with each other using walkie-talkies, and they would react to our distress calls much quicker than Her Majesty’s police force.

Then there was the legendary Sari Squad. These were women, mainly of south Asian origin, who were experts in various martial arts and ready and willing to take on any racists who would try to spoil our fun. They fought with style, and would usually burst into song after seeing off any attackers.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2...ah-on-fighting-the-far-right?CMP=share_btn_fb

 

[s28]

The Sari Squad deserve a picture credit