Hadith vs Quran Only

[Wazeeri]

As the forum has been invaded by people from the group known as the submitters I thought I would start a thread specifically on this topic, in order to avoid all threads being hijacked and turned into a debate on this one subject.

I think people are really confusing themselves with an imaginary war of superiority between the ahadith and the quran. No one in their right mind has ever argued that the ahadith are superior in anyway form or shape.

Let's just clear our minds and see things for what they are. The quran does not contain all events of the Prophet(pbuh)'s life. The quran doesn't contain all things which the Prophet(pbuh) said. The quran does not contain all communication between Allah(swt) and the prophet(pbuh).

Hence there is a history and a life story which we cannot get from the quran. The problem came when people started playing around with this history for personal gains. This forced the ulema to think and devise a system which will control the liars.

The plan was to be strict with the stories they hear and set a criteria which would seive out the lies from the truths. Most hadith rejectors don't give the ulema credit for this but the methods they came up with were on the whole very scientific and intelligent. What we were left with was a source of history which unless we believe in a massive conspiracy, is basd more on the truth then lies.

So what we have is the Quran which is of religious significance as it is from Allah and we have ahadith which is a document of history, incomplete and not absolute, yet very reliable.

The question then arises, do we need the ahadith? Is the quran not enough when it claims that it is complete and it is easy to understand? I think we do need the ahadith for the following reasons.

1) The prophet(pbuh) is the most beloved being ever created by Allah(swt). Would we then as muslims not seek knowledge about his life. Should we turn a blind eye to clear historical evidence and deny it ever happened just because it goes against the flavour of the day or because we find somethings within them restrictive?

2) The quran being easy to understand and complete are not to be taken absolutely literally. First of all the quran is not easy to understand for anyone who cannot read arabic. Hence that is the first caveat which proves that the wordings are not to be taken literally. Then it is not easy to understand for anyone who is too young or mentally incapable. So the quran being easy to understand is statement with caveats as are all other statements made by anyone anywhere.

Then we see that the Quran does not give detailed instructions on many things which are fard hence it is not a complete in terms of islam.

The quran is easy to understand when it is explained to everyone by the prophet(pbuh). The quran is complete as in everything which we needed to be told in the quran has been told to us. Everything which could be left out in order to avoid the Quran becoming an endless book has been left out.

The quran has been interpreted and misinterpreted by everyone who has read it for a variety of reasons. Very few people approach the Quran to learn from it rather then confirming what they already believe, everyone has a point to prove. The overtly conservative would use the quran to set down the precise pattern of breathing that an individual should adhere to, where as the overtly liberal would use it to allow everything under the sun.

Ahadith as a historical source provide us an insight into the life of the Prophet(pbuh). Using this information we can have a better understanding of what interpretation is more correct. Some ahadith even provide direct guidance on ayats which are interpreted in different ways.

The ahadith are not absolute.
The ahadith are a source of history and therefore relevant to us.
The ahadith are required because people have reasons to misinterpret islam and the quran.
Believing that the ahadith are all made up requires a belief in a mass conspiracy and mass confusion.
If at certain point in time all the people allowed for lies against the Prophet(pbuh) to be spread then we also have questions on the quran, as it also passed through the same generations before getting to us.

 

[Ladies Man]

The ahadith are a source of history and therefore relevant to us.

Firstly, has Allah or Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) recommended or encouraged this innovation? Or have you made this decision by yourself?

Secondly, who is "us"?

 

[Wazeeri]

Firstly, has Allah or Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) recommended or encouraged this innovation? Or have you made this decision by yourself?

Secondly, who is "us"?

Allah(swt) in the quran repeatedly commands us to gain knowledge and even more so he tells us to remember the events of the past.

So yes it is recommended and encouraged.

 

[zam]

Firstly, has Allah or Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) recommended or encouraged this innovation? Or have you made this decision by yourself?

Secondly, who is "us"?

How could you know that prophet Mohammad saww did tell or not....who would tell you.....Book of Aahadith or which source......when you are denying any source other than Kalam-e-majeed then who would you believe because Prophet Mohammad wont tell you or your grand parents.

 

[zam]

Yes Prophet Mohammad saww did tell:

I am leaviing two things; Book of Allah and Itratee (AhlulBait a.s.)

 

[IMMY69]

In my opinion The Quran is the be all and end all of Islam!

Hadith? Man's word..should not be taken into any context at all..

Surely even the smart people here on this forum can see that if in today's world there is so much corruption, lies, deceit and greed then I for one cannot imagine things being any different in the days after the Quran was written.

1) The prophet(pbuh) is the most beloved being ever created by Allah(swt). Would we then as muslims not seek knowledge about his life. Should we turn a blind eye to clear historical evidence and deny it ever happened just because it goes against the flavour of the day or because we find somethings within them restrictive?

In my opinion, it should be a resounding NO! islam is not a religion based on the life of profit Mohammad, it is a relgion based on the Quran!

Thats the beauty of Islam and what differentiates it from all other religions!

Allah(swt) in the quran repeatedly commands us to gain knowledge and even more so he tells us to remember the events of the past.

So yes it is recommended and encouraged.

again, cannot disagree with you more!!!!!!

If you gained knowledge and read the Quran with a open mind then you wont need answers and explanations from MAN!

when in doubt fall back on t he Quran! To follow a man'a word and historical account of things surely is the absolute opposite of the Teachings of The Quran and the whole reason for why Islam came about?

 

[Wazeeri]

IMMY69
I have edited your 4 back to back posts and merged them into one. I have also edited out my post which you quoted as a whole. Please only quote the part you want to answer,

I for one cannot imagine things being any different in the days after the Quran was written.

So are you suggesting that you question the Quran as well?

islam is not a religion based on the life of profit Mohammad, it is a relgion based on the Quran!

But the life of the Prophet(pbuh) is based on the quran. I am sure if we ever disagree on an interpretation of a quranic ayat and the Prophet(pbuh)'s actions could be an indication of the correct interpretation. It would be sensible to see what he did, as he understood the quran better then all.

If you gained knowledge and read the Quran with a open mind then you wont need answers and explanations from MAN!

Where do I gain knowledge from before reading the quran?
How do you explain the differing interpretations within the muslim world for some ayats?

 

[fawad_wellwisher]

The ahadith are not absolute.
The ahadith are a source of history and therefore relevant to us.
The ahadith are required because people have reasons to misinterpret islam and the quran.
Believing that the ahadith are all made up requires a belief in a mass conspiracy and mass confusion.
If at certain point in time all the people allowed for lies against the Prophet(pbuh) to be spread then we also have questions on the quran, as it also passed through the same generations before getting to us.

For now, I will restrict my response to the above.

Which hadith do you talk about? Sunni Hadith or Shia Hadith.
List of Sunni Hadith

Sahih al-Bukhari of Muhammad al-Bukhari
Sahih Muslim of Muslim ibn al-Hajjaj
Sunan al-Sughra of Al-Nasa'i
Sunan Abi Da'ud of Abu Dawood
Sunan al-Tirmidhi of Al-Tirmidhi
Sunan Ibn Majah of Ibn Maja
Al-Muwatta of Malik ibn Anas
Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal of Ahmad ibn Hanbal
Sunan al-Darimi
Sahifah Hammam ibn Munabbih of Hammam ibn Munabbih
Musannaf of Abd al-Razzaq of ‘Abd ar-Razzaq
Musannaf of ibn Jurayj of Ibn Jurayj
Al-Mu'jam al-Kabeer by al-Tabarani
Al-Mustadrak alaa al-Sahihain of Hakim al-Nishaburi


List of Shia Hadith

[Nahj-al-Balagha]] — Collected sermons of Imam 'Ali ibn Abi Talib by Sayyad Razi. Hindi Translation by: Allama Dr.syed Ali Imam Zaidi "Gauher" Lucknavi(Great Grand son of Mir Baber Ali "Anees")Published by: NIZAMI PRESS BOOK DEPO LUCKNOW. Urdu Translation by: Allama Mulana Mufti Syed Jafer Husain sb.

[The Four Books]]" (Al-Kutub Al-Arbʿah) - The collections which have gained most prominence. Comparable to Sunni Al-Sihah al-Sittah.

Kitab al-Kafi of Kulayni (divided into Usul al-Kafi, Furu al-Kafi and Rawdat al-Kafi)
Man la Yahdhuruhu'l Faqih of Shaikh Saduq
Tahdhib al-Ahkam by Abu Ja'far al-Tusi
Al-Istibsar by Abu Ja'far al-Tusi
The Book of Sulaym ibn Qays —by Sulaym ibn Qays
Wasael ush-Shia — 1600s by Shaikh al-Hur al-Aamili. A 20 volume collection, meant to include all 'authentic' Hadith from the available Shia hadith books, checking their authenticity on the strict principles of Ilm-ur-Rajjal.
Bihar al-Anwar — 1600s by Allama Majlesi. An encyclopedic, 100 volume collection, meant to include all Hadith current at the time of compilation as well as his opinions regarding their authenticity
Reality of Certainty (book)
Mir'at-ul-Uqool (Shahr Usul al-Kafi) — by Allama Majlesi
Jesus through Shiite Narrations — ? by Mahdi Muntazir Qaim
Alal-Alshraiy — Shaikh Saduq
Hulyatul Mutaqeen — Allama Majlesi
Maeny Alakhbar — by Shaikh Saduq
Aamali — by Shaikh Saduq
Aamali — by Sheikh al-Mufid
Sharhul Akhbar - by Syedna Qadi al Nu’man
Uyun al Akhbar - by syedna Idris Imad al din
Daym Al Islam - by syedna Qadi al Nu'man
Kamaluddin wa tamam-un-naymah by sheikh saduq

______________________________________________________

Which one is the true Hadith collection because we know they seriously contradict one another. If one is correct, the other has to be a fabrication.

As for the Quran, eventhough some verses are interpreted differently by sunni's and shia's, the text that came to us from Allah through the last prophet remains the same in a book that the Almighty has promised to protect.

The Quran deals with this in some verses I give below. Note that I have purposely left the word Hadith untranslated so the thinking reader can judge for himself.

وَمِنَ النَّاسِ مَنْ يَشْتَرِي لَهْوَ الْحَدِيثِ لِيُضِلَّ عَنْ سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ بِغَيْرِ عِلْم ٍ وَيَتَّخِذَهَا هُزُواً أُولَئِكَ لَهُمْ عَذَاب ٌ مُهِين

But there are, among men, those who purchase Hadith, without knowledge (or meaning), to mislead (men) from the Path of Allah and throw ridicule (on the Path): for such there will be a Humiliating Penalty. (31: 6)

ً للَّهُ نَزَّلَ أَحْسَنَ الْحَدِيثِ كِتَابا ً مُتَشَابِها مَثَانِيَ تَقْشَعِرُّ مِنْهُ جُلُودُ الَّذِينَ يَخْشَوْنَ رَبَّهُمْ ثُمَّ تَلِينُ جُلُودُهُمْ وَقُلُوبُهُمْ إِلَى ذِكْرِ اللَّهِ ذَلِكَ هُدَى اللَّهِ يَهْدِي بِه ِِ مَنْ يَشَاءُ وَمَنْ يُضْلِلِ اللَّهُ فَمَا لَه ُُ مِنْ هَاد

Allah has revealed the most beautiful Hadith in the form of a Book, consistent with itself, (yet) repeating (its teaching in various aspects): the skins of those who fear their Lord tremble thereat; then their skins and their hearts do soften to the celebration of Allah's praises. Such is the guidance of Allah: He guides therewith whom He pleases, but such as Allah leaves to stray, can have none to guide. (39:23)


اللَّهُ لاَ إِلَهَ~َ إِلاَّ هُوَ لَيَجْمَعَنَّكُمْ إِلَى يَوْمِ الْقِيَامَةِ لاَ رَيْبَ فِيه ِِ وَمَنْ أَصْدَقُ مِنَ اللَّهِ حَدِيثا

Allah! There is no god but He: of a surety He will gather you together against the Day of Judgment, about which there is no doubt. And whose Hadith can be truer than Allah's? (4:87)

تِلْكَ آيَاتُ اللَّهِ نَتْلُوهَا عَلَيْكَ بِالْحَقِّ فَبِأَيِّ حَدِيث ٍ بَعْدَ اللَّهِ وَآيَاتِه ِِ يُؤْمِنُونَ

Such are the Signs of Allah, which We rehearse to thee in Truth; then in what Hadith will they believe after (rejecting) Allah and His Signs? (45: 6)

فَبِأَيِّ حَدِيث ٍ بَعْدَه ُُ يُؤْمِنُونَ

Then what Hadith, after that, will they believe in? (77:50)

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا لَا تَدْخُلُوا بُيُوتَ النَّبِيِّ إِلَّا أَن يُؤْذَنَ لَكُمْ إِلَىٰ طَعَامٍ غَيْرَ نَاظِرِينَ إِنَاهُ وَلَـٰكِنْ إِذَا دُعِيتُمْ فَادْخُلُوا فَإِذَا طَعِمْتُمْ فَانتَشِرُوا وَلَا مُسْتَأْنِسِينَ لِحَدِيثٍ ۚ إِنَّ ذَ‌ٰلِكُمْ كَانَ يُؤْذِي النَّبِيَّ فَيَسْتَحْيِي مِنكُمْ ۖ وَاللَّهُ لَا يَسْتَحْيِي مِنَ الْحَقِّ ۚ وَإِذَا سَأَلْتُمُوهُنَّ مَتَاعًا فَاسْأَلُوهُنَّ مِن وَرَاءِ حِجَابٍ ۚ ذَ‌ٰلِكُمْ أَطْهَرُ لِقُلُوبِكُمْ وَقُلُوبِهِنَّ ۚ وَمَا كَانَ لَكُمْ أَن تُؤْذُوا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ وَلَا أَن تَنكِحُوا أَزْوَاجَهُ مِن بَعْدِهِ أَبَدًا ۚ إِنَّ ذَ‌ٰلِكُمْ كَانَ عِندَ اللَّهِ عَظِيمًا

O Ye who believe! Enter not the dwellings of the Prophet for a meal without waiting for the proper time, unless permission be granted you. But if ye are invited, enter, and, when your meal is ended, then disperse. Linger not for Hadith. Lo! that would cause annoyance to the Prophet, and he would be shy of (asking) you (to go); but Allah is not shy of the truth. And when ye ask of them (the wives of the Prophet) anything, ask it of them from behind a curtain. That is purer for your hearts and for their hearts. And it is not for you to cause annoyance to the messenger of Allah, nor that ye should ever marry his wives after him. Lo! that in Allah's sight would be an enormity. (33:53)

As clear from some of the verses above and many other I have not mentioned here, the only Hadith acceptable to Allah is the Quran. Unfortunately, only individuals trained to think indepentdently will recognize this fact.

 

[nabeel_1990]

As clear from some of the verses above and many other I have not mentioned here, the only Hadith acceptable to Allah is the Quran. Unfortunately, only individuals trained to think indepentdently will recognize this fact.

do you accept some hadith or do you reject every hadith?

 

[Wazeeri]

FWW

You have made two points in the long post above
1) Which hadith do you believe in
2) The quran mentions the word hadith and it is somehow a prophecy against the tradition of hadith.

1) Which hadith do you believe in
I think it is really important to understand that the concept of hadith is separate from a list of books. Hadith is the name given to the tradition of collecting sayings of the companions of the Prophet(pbuh) regarding the Prophet(pbuh) or the early sahabas.

What you have listed is a list of books which contain works of many scholars. Each has his own method of studying history and therefore each has his own unique collection.

In answer to your question, study the methods employed by these people and then believe in the method which is the most robust. Most muslim scholars who have done that have given preference to Sahih Bukhari or Sahih Muslim.

Rejecting ahadith because many different hadith books exist is like rejecting a particular history because many different hypothesis exist.

2) The quran mentions the word hadith and it is somehow a prophecy against the tradition of hadith.

I think with this point you are playing with semantics. Hadith means speech, you are presenting quranic ayats which say "Who else's speech is more true then Allah". The answer is no one else's speech is more true then Allah. I fail to see how this is an argument against the tradition of hadith when no one claims the hadith are superior.

You are pitching the tradition of ahadith against Allah or the quran. This is an imaginary war and this war's non-existence is enough to counter this point.

The fact that you are using the quran in this way is an argument for how much scope there is to misinterpret static text.

 

[zam]

Mr. Fawwad_wellwisher:

Would u please explain here for me from any translation what happend here with Moses a.s.

“And when Moses arrived at Our appointed time and his Lord spoke to him, he said, ‘My Lord, show me (Yourself) that I may look at You.’ (God) said, ‘You will not see Me, but look at the mountain; if it should remain in place, then you will see Me.’ But when his Lord appeared to the mountain, He rendered it level, and Moses fell unconscious. And when he awoke, he said, ‘Exalted are You! I have repented to You, and I am the first of the believers.’” (Quran 7:143)

thanks.

 

[Jadz]

Since Al-Qur'an is Al-Furqan - The Criterion/Standard by which we distinguish between true/false, right/wrong, good/bad - it then must be employed in order to determine the authenticity/veracity of any statement and report.

Further, the Hadith reports are NOT the words of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), they are only his REPORTED sayings/actions.

I do not believe the Hadith Compilations can be dispensed with, they definitely serve a purpose. However, I do believe a great many Muslims rely/depend far too heavily upon Hadith, to the extent that they have more knowledge about Ahadeeth than do about Al-Qur'an. So, there is a middle path between the two extremes - there need not be either absolute rejection or absolute acceptance. Only Al-Qur'an is the determining factor between acceptance or rejection of any particular Hadith report.

These debates remind me of the split that took place amongst the two opposing Jewish groups - the Sadducees and the Pharisees. One believed in both the written Law and oral tradition as being Divinely Inspired and thus forming religion/faith. Whereas the other group argued that ONLY the written Law as was recieved by Moses (pbuh) formed the basis of religion/faith - they rejected oral tradition.

Muslims have been designated as the "Community of the Middle Way" - 2:143 - so we must be balanced in our approach to matters concerning our Deen. In Sha Allah Ta'aala, we may remain united inspite of these disagreements and not permit shaitaan to sow discord amongst us.

Allah The Beautiful Knows Best,
Ma'Salaama

 

[Civil]

I am also a quran only person. Ahadith can say contradictory things, something which is true guidance of a perfect religion should not contradict. Also the collection of Ahadiths that has been allowed and disallowed is up for suspicion.

As we were not there during the time these were compiled how can we be sure of diligence in its compilation? A

few hundred years after the death of Jesus Christ, all the gospels were collected from every where christianity had spread, and it was decided by the powers that be which gospels were authentic and which were false.

How does one prove that ahadiths weren't similarly compiled with only the things that serve the needs of the powers that be staying and everythign else stricken from the record? If that cannot be proven then the ahadiths are a historical source only. Why should they be used in crucial decisions about how muslims should practice their religion??

 

[Ladies Man]

Allah(swt) in the quran repeatedly commands us to gain knowledge and even more so he tells us to remember the events of the past.

OK then, show me the Quranic verse(s) that you and your ilk follow which implores upon basing your religion on a book other than the Quran.

If what you say above is true then what is stopping you from basing your religion on another corrupted holy book of the Bible? It surely can't be any worse in veracity compared to man-made and influenced hadeeth books?

If Allah wanted an uncomplicated religion with a unified structure then howcome he left it to our devices to choose from the multitude of choices a hadeeth book of our liking? And that too to accept some parts and disregard the other?

You surely cannot defy common sense.

 

[Ralync]

OK then, show me the Quranic verse(s) that you and your ilk follow which implores upon basing your religion on a book other than the Quran.

If what you say above is true then what is stopping you from basing your religion on another corrupted holy book of the Bible? It surely can't be any worse in veracity compared to man-made and influenced hadeeth books?

If Allah wanted an uncomplicated religion with a unified structure then howcome he left it to our devices to choose from the multitude of choices a hadeeth book of our liking? And that too to accept some parts and disregard the other?

You surely cannot defy common sense.

No one bases Islam on any other book. They base it on Hadith, which are written down. The hadith on which Islamic Law is based aren't solely from one book. So what's the problem?

 

[IMMY69]

No one bases Islam on any other book. They base it on Hadith, which are written down. The hadith on which Islamic Law is based aren't solely from one book. So what's the problem?

How do you mean Hadith which are written down? Said by who and written by who?

 

[Wiji]

I am not a so-called 'submitter', Wazeeri. I only heard of this term recently. It would be incorrect for you to label people like that.

But I have had my doubts on Hadith for a long time now. No one influenced me to think this way. I just used to spend a lot of time thinking about this issue alone. If I ever voiced my concerns about Hadith around my family, or my circle of friends, I was severely scolded, as if I had committed blasphemy. I try not to entirely reject the Hadith. There is some good messages in them. But there are times I think that if something was so important an issue, then it would have been mentioned in the Quran.

A couple of weeks ago, I was shocked to discover that a person called Rashad Khalifa was awfully harassed throughout his life and finally he was brutally killed by a group of people known as 'Sunni Muslims'. What was his vice? For preaching to Muslims to follow the Quran only.

So let us not put labels on people. And let us not use negative words such as 'invade'. Anyone can express their views on this forum, so long as it is not offensive to anyone. And telling people that their 'post is long'...of course some posts will be long. This is a very serious and sensitive topic, and it is crucially important to write, read and allow a comprehensive argument to be made.

 

[Wiji]

And I applaud you for starting this dialogue here.

 

[Ralync]

How do you mean Hadith which are written down? Said by who and written by who?

Written by the ones who transmitted them. Transmitted by the Sahabah to their students and by them to their students and so on.

 

[IMMY69]

Written by the ones who transmitted them. Transmitted by the Sahabah to their students and by them to their students and so on.

right so its not the word of god then!

 

[Joseph K.]

right so its not the word of god then!

Don't you know about "the science of Hadith?"

I was also shocked by the label of 'submitters'. Who are submitters? I doubt hadith and can clearly see selfish and political motives behind some and one can see how this medium has been used to get hold of power throughout the centuries. As I said to a colleague of mine, important things, really import things are in Qura'an. Issues like inheritance and agreements etc, the worldly issues and the haqooq al ibaad. As far as Allah's haqooq and the rituals of this religion are concerned, Allah doesn't say much because fear of Allah means not transgressing his limits in our worldly affairs while worshipping no one but Alah, simple as. Fear of Allah is the only criterian. All the ritualism that our once very simple religion is infested with, is brought in through the backdoor of Hadith. This excessive focus on ritual has killed the original humanistic soul of our religion and we see the result all around us. The Mullah or the so-called ulema have preached the excessive importance of ritual through hadith as they deal in ritual, ritual IS their product, their means to power and relevance. Qur'an teaches tauheed and respect for other people's rights (Allah's limits), all the other complications have done a lot of damage to these very simple teachings.

I am not a submitter, I don't know submitters. I heard about them from Wazeeri but never felt the need to look into them as common sense does not need any school of thought or labels. Much that is under attack in our religion and is found culpable was added to Islam through hadith in later centuries.

Before the advent of mass-literacy and printing, human beings were prone to believing in chinese whispers. Ever seen how easily old folks believe in everything they hear? Isa AI became God Himself within a few years of his departure. Since the written records were scarce and people liked making up stories and people, really, were more credulous, all kinds of things were made up. To me, Islam is turned into a hodge-podge of rituals and oppressive practices because of later additions. Qura'an, if properly understood, is simple and beautiful, in stark contrast to the complicated religion which it is meant to preach.

I try not to get involved in such debates but Wazeeri started this thread and I was shocked to see this issue raise its head again. Common sense needs no preaching. These issues should be left to the individual's own judgement. I grew up seeing my family heaping curses on G A Pervaiz and Sir Syed Ahmed Khan for their doubts concerning hadith. Heard about Pervaiz back in 1988 when a classfellow turned up with one of his books. My respected teacher labelled Pervaiz kafir right away. Still I never felt the need to look into these things. If one knows how clergy/ priesthood has been the second most powerful institution in human history after monarchy, one would see how it can channelize religious feelings to strengthen its own power. It changes religions to serve its own purpose. That is what we see at work when we look at the undue stress on ritual in hadith.

Now this is uncalled for:

You are pitching the tradition of ahadith against Allah or the quran. This is an imaginary war and this war's non-existence is enough to counter this point.

The fact that you are using the quran in this way is an argument for how much scope there is to misinterpret static text.

Wazeeri, you started this thread and you gave it its title "Hadith vs Quran Only". Who pitched things against Allah's word first? It would have been wiser to bump any of the old threads on this issue because I can see many things will be repeated in this thread. We've been here before. I will try my best to stay away from this dispute as it only breeds bad feelings. My stance on this issue is simple: We accuse other religions of changing the Word of Allah. We did not change the Word (Qur'an) but created SEVEN parallel texts instead. Who is more guilty of corruption? Definitive interpretations make texts static. Through hadith, these definitive interpretations were glued onto a once very dynamic text. A static text is a dead text.

 

[Wiji]

Don't you know about "the science of Hadith?"

I was also shocked by the label of 'submitters'. Who are submitters? I doubt hadith and can clearly see selfish and political motives behind some and one can see how this medium has been used to get hold of power throughout the centuries. As I said to a colleague of mine, important

................nst Allah's word first? It would have been wiser to bump any of the old threads on this issue because I can see many things will be repeated in this thread. We've been here before. I will try my best to stay away from this dispute as it only breeds bad feelings. My stance on this issue is simple: We accuse other religions of changing the Word of Allah. We did not change the Word (Qur'an) but created SEVEN parallel texts instead. Who is more guilty of corruption? Definitive interpretations make texts static. Through hadith, these definitive interpretations were glued onto a once very dynamic text. A static text is a dead text.

This is a fantastic post! Everything I wanted to say, and done very eloquently. Well done!

I, however, do not think that you should away from such dialogue. What you said does not, and should not, harbour ill feelings from anyone. I for one think its very educational and informative. So I would honestly suggest that you stay in this debate.

 

[fawad_wellwisher]

do you accept some hadith or do you reject every hadith?

Go and read my post above and ask yourself, 'How many Hadith (Sunni + Shia) do I reject from the list?'

Then come back and ask me this question.

 

[fawad_wellwisher]

Mr. Fawwad_wellwisher:

Would u please explain here for me from any translation what happend here with Moses a.s.

“And when Moses arrived at Our appointed time and his Lord spoke to him, he said, ‘My Lord, show me (Yourself) that I may look at You.’ (God) said, ‘You will not see Me, but look at the mountain; if it should remain in place, then you will see Me.’ But when his Lord appeared to the mountain, He rendered it level, and Moses fell unconscious. And when he awoke, he said, ‘Exalted are You! I have repented to You, and I am the first of the believers.’” (Quran 7:143)

thanks.

And then 'submitters' are accused of posting off topic by one of the MODS here!

 

[fawad_wellwisher]

Since Al-Qur'an is Al-Furqan - The Criterion/Standard by which we distinguish between true/false, right/wrong, good/bad - it then must be employed in order to determine the authenticity/veracity of any statement and report.

Further, the Hadith reports are NOT the words of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), they are only his REPORTED sayings/actions.

I do not believe the Hadith Compilations can be dispensed with, they definitely serve a purpose. However, I do believe a great many Muslims rely/depend far too heavily upon Hadith, to the extent that they have more knowledge about Ahadeeth than do about Al-Qur'an. So, there is a middle path between the two extremes - there need not be either absolute rejection or absolute acceptance. Only Al-Qur'an is the determining factor between acceptance or rejection of any particular Hadith report.

These debates remind me of the split that took place amongst the two opposing Jewish groups - the Sadducees and the Pharisees. One believed in both the written Law and oral tradition as being Divinely Inspired and thus forming religion/faith. Whereas the other group argued that ONLY the written Law as was recieved by Moses (pbuh) formed the basis of religion/faith - they rejected oral tradition.

Muslims have been designated as the "Community of the Middle Way" - 2:143 - so we must be balanced in our approach to matters concerning our Deen. In Sha Allah Ta'aala, we may remain united inspite of these disagreements and not permit shaitaan to sow discord amongst us.

Allah The Beautiful Knows Best,
Ma'Salaama

Jadz you intentions are noble but I can assure you this can never work.

Yes the verse talks about a balanced Ummah and NOT an Ummah that compromises and mixes truth with false information, contradictions, and innuendos.

When Allah talks about balance it is with respect to this worldly and spiritual life. By saying we can find some kind of 'middle ground', you are accepting things our Prophet never said. Infact as a messenger it was his duty to restrict himself to the Quran.

Please read Surah Al-Qalam

1 Nun. By the pen and that which they write (therewith),

2 Thou art not, for thy Lord's favour unto thee, a madman.

3 And lo! thine verily will be a reward unfailing.

4 And lo! thou art of a tremendous nature.

5 And thou wilt see and they will see

6 Which of you is the demented.

7 Lo! thy Lord is Best Aware of him who strayeth from His way, and He is Best Aware of those who walk aright.

8 Therefor obey not thou the rejecters

9 Who would have had thee compromise, that they may compromise.

10 Neither obey thou each feeble oath-monger,



It is clear Allah didn't want the Prophet to compromise with the rejectors because He didn't want the truth to be diluted. In Quran, we have the ONLY truthful message.

 

[nabeel_1990]

a bunch of ppl from pakpassion forums or the majority of scholars throughout the centuries lol, when ppl interpret the text themselves, thats when the problems occur.

 

[fawad_wellwisher]

FWW

What you have listed is a list of books which contain works of many scholars. Each has his own method of studying history and therefore each has his own unique collection.

It is a list consisting of Shia AND Sunni Hadith books. Without deceiving yourself, ask yourself, 'Do I believe in both'. If you answer truthfully then you will find that you are a Hadith rejector too. Your next step should then be to ask yourself, 'Why do I only believe in 1/2'. What makes one more truthful than the other?

By following this logical process I hope it will become clear to you that the ONLY reason you follow Sunni Hadith is because you were born into a Sunni family. You would probably be vehemently defending Shia Hadith had your parents been Shia. Unfortunately, there are many others like you who are guilty of this.

2) The quran mentions the word hadith and it is somehow a prophecy against the tradition of hadith.

I think with this point you are playing with semantics. Hadith means speech, you are presenting quranic ayats which say "Who else's speech is more true then Allah". The answer is no one else's speech is more true then Allah. I fail to see how this is an argument against the tradition of hadith when no one claims the hadith are superior.

You are pitching the tradition of ahadith against Allah or the quran. This is an imaginary war and this war's non-existence is enough to counter this point.

The fact that you are using the quran in this way is an argument for how much scope there is to misinterpret static text.

No I am not playing with Semantics but showing you how the word 'Hadith' is used in the Quran. It's unfortunate you couldn't find an article on the web that you could cut and paste to counter my post.

I posted the ayahs to give you a small flavor of how Allah in his Quran totally discredits the traditional understanding of popular words such as 'Hadith' in His protected book. This is exactly the reason why all the related verses are all scattered within the Quran so the the fabricators can be caught with their pants down. The ONLY Hadith acceptable to Allah is His divinely revealed Book. No other literature is accepted.

But unfortunately only those are given guidance who approach the Quran without any preconceived notions and a pure heart.

 

[nabeel_1990]

one fawad wellwisher, would you consider alcohol and the other known major sins haram??

 

[fawad_wellwisher]

Yes Prophet Mohammad saww did tell:

I am leaviing two things; Book of Allah and Itratee (AhlulBait a.s.)

Unless you can prove with valid arguments that Hadith=Itratee, you cannot expect to be taken seriously.

 

[fawad_wellwisher]

one fawad wellwisher, would you consider alcohol and the other known major sins haram??

Forgive me for saying this but
If an extraterrestial ever visits Earth and wants to investigate why the Muslims the world over are being screwed, all he has to do is read your posts on PP.

Never have I found you posting anything original. You have not made any effort to learn the Deen on your own but always seem to display that hollow confidence.

If you think your are truthful and the belief system you follow is the correct one, then make an effort to articulate yourself a little better rather than relying on just saying 'religious scholars don't say this or that'.

 

[nabeel_1990]

Forgive me for saying this but
If an extraterrestial ever visits Earth and wants to investigate why the Muslims the world over are being screwed, all he has to do is read your posts on PP.

Never have I found you posting anything original. You have not made any effort to learn the Deen on your own but always seem to display that hollow confidence.

If you think your are truthful and the belief system you follow is the correct one, then make an effort to articulate yourself a little better rather than relying on just saying 'religious scholars don't say this or that'.

it was a simple question, i find your posts interesting but i haven't said anything to you, what makes you think you are so right about these issues? i still remember when you said to me this same crap, you even said you knew more about islam then me. Its not hard answering the question.

 

[fawad_wellwisher]

Wazeeri, you started this thread and you gave it its title "Hadith vs Quran Only". Who pitched things against Allah's word first? It would have been wiser to bump any of the old threads on this issue because I can see many things will be repeated in this thread. We've been here before. I will try my best to stay away from this dispute as it only breeds bad feelings. My stance on this issue is simple: We accuse other religions of changing the Word of Allah. We did not change the Word (Qur'an) but created SEVEN parallel texts instead. Who is more guilty of corruption? Definitive interpretations make texts static. Through hadith, these definitive interpretations were glued onto a once very dynamic text. A static text is a dead text.

It's great to see so many people here are doing their due diligence and finding out on their own what the true Deen is. Hats off to you for not being afraid to speak the truth.

 

[fawad_wellwisher]

it was a simple question, i find your posts interesting but i haven't said anything to you, what makes you think you are so right about these issues? i still remember when you said to me this same crap, you even said you knew more about islam then me. Its not hard answering the question.

I am right because I have made the effort to educate myself to learn these issues. Until you can prove me wrong using intellectual arguments, you cannot expect to earn the respect of people you are debating against.

I am sorry but if you call yourself a true muslim, you have to make an effort to educate yourself in whatever is it you are following and then ask intelligent questions.

 

[nabeel_1990]

I am right because I have made the effort to educate myself to learn these issues. Until you can prove me wrong using intellectual arguments, you cannot expect to earn the respect of people you are debating against.

I am sorry but if you call yourself a true muslim, you have to make an effort to educate yourself in whatever is it you are following and then ask intelligent questions.

learnt from who?? which scholar follows your opinions, im pretty sure you had a teacher when you were learning all this, and you still didn't answer the question about alcohol, reason im asking is there was person with similar views who said alcohol was ok.

what makes you think you are right and the majority of scholars and muslims wrong??

 

[Wazeeri]

Wiji, JosephK...etc

As I made clear in another thread, I am not labelling all hadith rejectors as submitters. What I have said is that a few submitters have returned to the forum and since then all islamic threads get turned into a hadith vs quran thread.

The purpose of this thread is to concentrate the debate up here in order to prevent thehijacking of all other threads.

 

[Wazeeri]

Wazeeri, you started this thread and you gave it its title "Hadith vs Quran Only".

This is a very apt title to the thread because that is what two three returning members of the forum have started declaring. I don't want to mention names because then that would become a personal battle between me and the the two three individuals and I want to avoid getting personal with individuals. However there is this thoughtless belief that the Quran and the hadith are at odds with each other.

Please review a few recent threads on the subject and you will see what I mean.

You yourself have further reinforced that view by arguing that we have created 7 parallel texts.

In your post you have made two points
1) Hadith are used to support ritual orientated islam
2) Hadith rejectors are declared kaafirs

I know that you are not arguing for the complete removal of ahadith but I wanted to highlight that both of the above points are not arguments against ahadith but against the behaviour of individuals or groups.

was shocked to see this issue raise its head again.
It would have been wiser to bump an old thread

That was my first option but when I found the old thread on the topic, I found that it was into multiple pages and bumping it would not have avoided repetition of the same arguments.

No harm in revising the arguments anyway.

 

[Wazeeri]

But there are times I think that if something was so important an issue, then it would have been mentioned in the Quran.

Wiji
This will bring us to the age old argument of why is the salaat not explained in the quran? What about hajj? Why has only the reference been made to it? The story of miraj is also only mentioned, was it not important?

Not all communication between Allah(swt) and the Prophet(pbuh) is included in the quran. Your question and position is perfectly logical but unfortunately the criteria of what was inclued in the quran and what was left out is something we do not know. The knowledge of that is with Allah(swt).

 

[Rizwan25]

learnt from who?? which scholar follows your opinions, im pretty sure you had a teacher when you were learning all this, and you still didn't answer the question about alcohol, reason im asking is there was person with similar views who said alcohol was ok.

what makes you think you are right and the majority of scholars and muslims wrong??

Nabeel, don't waste ur time with this guy as I have wasted enough. He will never answer your question nor he will give u any ref. The only thing he will do is try to persuade you that stop following ahadiths and simply follow quran as it has everything in it but still he didn't answer many of my questions like where in quran it shows how to perform salat and what to recite in it.

 

[Ralync]

right so its not the word of god then!

A sahih hadith is from of the Prophet (PBUH)

And Allah (SWT) says about what the Prophet says

وَمَا يَنطِقُ عَنِ ٱلْهَوَىٰ
إِنْ هُوَ إِلَّا وَحْىٌۭ يُوحَىٰ

He does not speak out of (his own) desire.
It is but revelation revealed (to him).

(Surah al-Najm)

 

[nabeel_1990]

Nabeel, don't waste ur time with this guy as I have wasted enough. He will never answer your question nor he will give u any ref. The only thing he will do is try to persuade you that stop following ahadiths and simply follow quran as it has everything in it but still he didn't answer many of my questions like where in quran it shows how to perform salat and what to recite in it.

i know, he is a very confused individual, to actually outright say he knows more then me about islam (he doesn't know anything about me) shows his arrogance and ignorance.

 

[zam]

.

 

[Ralync]

The question about obeying Hadith.

وَأَطِيعُوا۟ ٱللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا۟ ٱلرَّسُولَ وَٱحْذَرُوا۟

Obey Allah, obey the Messenger, and be heedful.

Surah al-Maaidah : 92

Once a Hadith is proven to be from RasulAllah (SAW) then we must accept it.

 

[Rizwan25]

i know, he is a very confused individual, to actually outright say he knows more then me about islam (he doesn't know anything about me) shows his arrogance and ignorance.

This is his trick, he trys to put you down by saying go learn quran if you wana save urself and at the same time he has no knowledge of it himself. Lol

 

[Ralync]

Nabeel, Rizwan. No need for these sort of posts. They are against the etiquette of a Muslim.

 

[nabeel_1990]

he can believe whatever he wants, thats not my problem but if he acts like some scholar because he self-studied islam (there is no respected scholar which shares his opinion on these issues) then it gets annoying and not being to answer questions shows he doesn't know what he is talking about.

 

[Wazeeri]

Without deceiving yourself, ask yourself, 'Do I believe in both'. If you answer truthfully then you will find that you are a Hadith rejector too. Your next step should then be to ask yourself, 'Why do I only believe in 1/2'. What makes one more truthful than the other?

FWW

I have already addressed that question but I will attempt it in another way.
-Do we need ahadith?
-What about the lies within the ahadith

-Do we need ahadith?

Yes we do, why because of the following verse of the quran.

16:044 (We sent them) with Clear Signs and Books of dark prophecies; and We have sent down unto thee (also) the Message; that thou mayest explain clearly to men what is sent for them, and that they may give thought.

The prophet(pbuh)'s mission was not just to recite what was in the quran but to explain it to the people. I never received these explanations because I never met the Prophet(pbuh). The explanations can only reach me through the process which is referred to as the tradition of ahadith.

The prophet(pbuh) explained the quran to those close to him,
they explained it further,
they explained it further
...and so on until it reached me.

This is a practice which everyone is happy with, the objection arises when someone takes the explanations and puts them down on paper.

CHALLENGE
To prove the necessity of TRUE Ahadith I would like to set you a challenge.
Please explain the following ayat of the Quran without using the following ahadith.

QURAN 59:5Whatever palm-tree you cut down or leave standing upon its roots, It is by Allah's command, and that He may abase the transgressors.

HADITH Volume 6, Book 60, Number 406: Narrated Ibn Umar:
'Allah's Apostle burnt and cut down the palm trees of Bani An-Nadir which were at Al-Buwair (a place near Medina). There upon Allah revealed:

'What you (O Muslims) cut down of the palm trees (of the enemy) or you left them standing on their stems, it was by the leave of Allah, so that He might cover with shame the rebellious.' (59.5)

But what about lies
This question is not only a problem for me to answer, it is a problem for you as well. The concept of ahadith is logical and necessary as shown above. We have lies in the collection of ahadith and it is our duty to work out a way of removing these lies.

You have posted about 20 such attempts.

Now to answer your question, I repeat,
Look at the method employed at disntinguishing between the lies and the truths. See which is the most robust.

My criteria is a method
1) Which does not assume knowledge of the mat'n, ie it only rejects the mat'n if it is directly in conflict with the quran.
2) The methods employed are logical ie
- Have the people mentioned in the chain actually met and learnt of each other?
- Are there other narrations/ahadith which support the message in a particular one
-...etc

Sunni vs Shia
If you were involved in many discussions I have had on this forum on the subject of the quran you would know that I have used shia ahadith in my arguments.
I personally agree with the majority of the sunni scholars who have given Bukhari and Muslim preference. These two works have been done the most methodically and the fact that they contain ahadith which supports the shia school of thought shows that the method was put infront of the nafs when compiling the work.

It's unfortunate you couldn't find an article on the web that you could cut and paste to counter my post.

I hope you are not suggesting that I am copying and pasting my posts because it takes a very long time to type them up. If you are then please google my posts and find the original.

If you can't then please desist from personal attacks so we can discuss this sensibly.

No I am not playing with Semantics but showing you how the word 'Hadith' is used in the Quran. .......... I posted the ayahs to give you a small flavor of how Allah in his Quran totally discredits the traditional understanding of popular words such as 'Hadith'.

Once again I would like to highlight that you are playing with the words of the quran (sorry to be so direct). The quran used the word for what it means.

Hadith means speech and the quran uses that word as such.
The tradition of ahadith took up the name because it is the tradition of the speech of Prophet(pbuh).

You are using the ayahs and quoting them out of context to show that these ayahs were some sort of a prophecy against ahadith.

You are misinterpreting the quran just to argue your point against me on this thread. This highlights like i said earlier the scope of misinterpretation of a static text.

 

[Wazeeri]

Guys

Can we avoid comments like

No need to waste time on these guys
These guys think.....
You and your ilk......

If you don't like the debate, you are welcome to leave the thread.
Don't ruin it.

 

[nabeel_1990]

Nabeel, Rizwan. No need for these sort of posts. They are against the etiquette of a Muslim.

fair point, ill debate properly

 

[khan-92]

I urge all those who question Hadeeth to read this article.

http://www.central-mosque.com/fiqh/asunnah1.htm

 

[Ladies Man]

OK then, show me the Quranic verse(s) that you and your ilk follow which implores upon basing your religion on a book other than the Quran.

If what you say above is true then what is stopping you from basing your religion on another corrupted holy book of the Bible? It surely can't be any worse in veracity compared to man-made and influenced hadeeth books?

If Allah wanted an uncomplicated religion with a unified structure then howcome he left it to our devices to choose from the multitude of choices a hadeeth book of our liking? And that too to accept some parts and disregard the other?

You surely cannot defy common sense.

All the high-fiving, patting on the backs, griping at an opposing poster and still none has provided answers to the above. It's true -- common sense is not too widespread after all.

Hadees books are the core reason why muslims are divided -- even more so divided into sub-sects due to the same.

You have to agree, an existence without corrupted religious books and our lives and religion would've been so much simpler.

 

[Ladies Man]

I urge all those who question Hadeeth to read this article.

So I take it that you don't possess any arguments of your own?

I refuse to click on the link as I would prefer your personal view on this -- without the cut and pastes ofcourse.

 

[Ladies Man]

Guys

Can we avoid comments like

No need to waste time on these guys
These guys think.....
You and your ilk......

If you don't like the debate, you are welcome to leave the thread.
Don't ruin it.

I appreciate your slick "mod"ing skills. We can also certainly do away with your comments like:

... relevant to "us"

You started the 'us and them' clitche from the first post. You cannot possibly blame the rest for continuing on with this tradition.

Anyways good call.

 

[Ladies Man]

Then we see that the Quran does not give detailed instructions on many things which are fard hence it is not a complete in terms of islam.

I missed this gem the first time around. Too long a post, too many words, too much muddle.

This is very interesting. So the Quran is not a complete book then. Even when explicitly stated by Allah Himself? And one of the basic premise of our religion.

 

[Zeenix]

I missed this gem the first time around. Too long a post, too many words, too much muddle.

This is very interesting. So the Quran is not a complete book then. Even when explicitly stated by Allah Himself? And one of the basic premise of our religion.

Now that you have quoted it, i myself find it very interesting. So according to Wazeeri (Imam anyone???) Allah didn't complete Quran and left it out to the likes of Imam Bukhari, Muslim, Daud, Tirmizi etc to complete it.

 

[TAK]

he can believe whatever he wants, thats not my problem but if he acts like some scholar because he self-studied islam (there is no respected scholar which shares his opinion on these issues) then it gets annoying and not being to answer questions shows he doesn't know what he is talking about.

i am thinking you are meaning actually perhaps is there is no scholar respected by me which shares his opinion on these issues

 

[Ladies Man]

Now that you have quoted it, i myself find it very interesting. So according to Wazeeri (Imam anyone???) All didn't complete Quran and left it out to the likes of Imam Bukhari, Muslim, Daud, Tirmizi etc to complete it.

No actually he does back-track from his earlier POV with this other gem a little further down the post. INFACT the next statement!

The quran is complete as in everything which we needed to be told in the quran has been told to us.

You have to give him credit for at the least trying to cover all bases. Even if this means arguing for both sides of the debate.

 

[Ralync]

So I take it that you don't possess any arguments of your own?

I refuse to click on the link as I would prefer your personal view on this -- without the cut and pastes ofcourse.

What's the point in debating with Pakpassioners. If you are genuine with your criticisms or questions on Hadith, go to a reputable scholar and discuss it with him.

OK then, show me the Quranic verse(s) that you and your ilk follow which implores upon basing your religion on a book other than the Quran.

If what you say above is true then what is stopping you from basing your religion on another corrupted holy book of the Bible? It surely can't be any worse in veracity compared to man-made and influenced hadeeth books?

If Allah wanted an uncomplicated religion with a unified structure then howcome he left it to our devices to choose from the multitude of choices a hadeeth book of our liking? And that too to accept some parts and disregard the other?

You surely cannot defy common sense.

1) Nobody is basing Islam on any other BOOK besides the Qur'an whether it is Bukhari Shareef or Muslim Shareef or any other hadith book.

2) Rather Islam is based on the Qur'an AND the hadith of RasulAllah (SAW). The Qur'an commands

وَأَطِيعُوا۟ ٱللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا۟ ٱلرَّسُولَ وَٱحْذَرُوا۟

Obey Allah, obey the Messenger, and be heedful.

Surah al-Maaidah : 92

3) Once we understand that Islam is not being based on any specific book of Hadith, rather on Hadith of RasulAllah (SAW) then the issue arises of ensuring that the Ahadith are authentic. A hadith's authenticity is not determined by a person's desires but by strict principles which can be found in the books of Usool e Hadith. No comparison can be made between the Hadith and the Bible simply due to the millions of scholars who have spent their lives in ensuring authenticity of the Ahadith.

4) A hadith is only something attributed to the Prophet (SAW). So picking and choosing is not based on what one wants, rather on how authentic the hadith is. IF it is authentic then it must be accepted, otherwise if it is proven to be a fabrication it is not permissible to act upon the hadith.

 

[Zeenix]

I urge all those who question Hadeeth to read this article.

http://www.central-mosque.com/fiqh/asunnah1.htm

http://pakpassion.net/ppforum/showpost.php?p=2200157&postcount=97

 

[Ladies Man]

IF it is authentic then it must be accepted

Who decides: mortal flawed self-annointed men with an agenda; or messengers appointed through divine intervention?

If Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) himself proclaimed completing the final message, then why the emphasis on new books added to the religion 200 years after His death?

With so many choices of dozens of hadees books self-labeling themselves as 'The ONE', which one is that single true one then? Mind you the Quran doesn't have saheeh as a prefix in it's name.

That's a big IF bud. You are only over-complicating a simple religion with this futile sinful excercise.

 

[Ralync]

Who decides: mortal flawed self-annointed men with an agenda; or messengers appointed through divine intervention?

If Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) himself proclaimed completing the final message, then why the emphasis on new books added to the religion 200 years after His death?

With so many choices of dozens of hadees books self-labeling themselves as 'The ONE', which one is that single true one then? Mind you the Quran doesn't have saheeh as a prefix in it's name.

That's a big IF bud. You are only over-complicating a simple religion with this futile sinful excercise.

Seems you didn't read my post.

 

[rhussain33]

Praise be to Allaah.

Firstly:

Every Muslim has to believe in all the ahaadeeth of the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) – if they are saheeh – and not reject any of them, because his ahaadeeth and his Sunnah are revelation (wahy) from Allaah. Whoever rejects the hadeeth of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) has rejected revelation from Allaah.

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“By the star when it goes down (or vanishes).

Your companion (Muhammad) has neither gone astray nor has erred.

Nor does he speak of (his own) desire.

It is only a Revelation revealed.

He has been taught (this Qur’aan) by one mighty in power [Jibreel (Gabriel)].

One free from any defect in body and mind then he (Jibreel — Gabriel in his real shape as created by Allaah) rose and became stable”

[al-Najm 53:1-6]

Allaah has commanded the people to obey His Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). He has enjoined this in many verses of the Qur’aan, of which we will quote some. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Say (O Muhammad): “Obey Allaah and the Messenger (Muhammad).” But if they turn away, then Allaah does not like the disbelievers”

[Aal ‘Imraan 3:32]

“He who obeys the Messenger (Muhammad), has indeed obeyed Allaah, but he who turns away, then we have not sent you (O Muhammad) as a watcher over them”

[al-Nisa’ 4:80]

“O you who believe! Obey Allaah and obey the Messenger (Muhammad), and those of you (Muslims) who are in authority. (And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allaah and His Messenger, if you believe in Allaah and in the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for final determination”

[al-Nisa’ 4:59]

“And perform As‑Salaah (Iqaamat‑as-Salaah), and give Zakaah and obey the Messenger (Muhammad) that you may receive mercy (from Allaah)”
[al-Noor 24:56]

And there are many similar verses.

The one who rejects the Sunnah is a kaafir and an apostate.

Al-Suyooti (may Allaah have mercy on him) said in his essay Miftaah al-Jannah fi Ihtijaaj bi’l-Sunnah:

Note that whoever denies that the hadeeth of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), whether it describes his words or deeds, so long as it meets the conditions outlined by the scholars, may be quoted as evidence, is a kaafir and has gone beyond the pale of Islam; he will be gathered with the Jews and the Christians or whomever Allaah wills among the kaafir sects [i.e., on the Day of Resurrection].

Those who want to restrict themselves to the Qur’aan only are called al-Qur’aaniyyoon. This view of theirs is an old view which the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) warned against in more than one hadeeth, as we shall see below. Among the soundest evidence that this view is false is the fact that those who say this do not really follow what they say.

How do these people pray? How many times do they pray each day and night? What are the conditions and details of zakaah? What is the nisaab (threshold of wealth) for paying zakaah? What is the amount that must be paid? How do they do Hajj and ‘Umrah? How many times do they circumambulate the Ka’bah? How many times do they go back and forth between al-Safa and al-Marwah?

There are many other issues the details of which are not narrated in the Qur’aan, rather they are mentioned in the Qur’aan in general terms, and the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) explained them in detail in his Sunnah.

Would these people refrain from acting upon these rulings because they are not narrated in the Qur’aan?

If their answer is yes, then they have passed judgement against themselves that they are kaafirs, because they have denied a basic principle of Islam that no Muslim has any excuse for not knowing and on which there is unanimous consensus among the Muslims.

If they reply that they do not refrain from following these rulings, then they have demonstrated that their view is false.

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah said – after quoting the verses that enjoin following the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) –

These texts enjoin following the Messenger even if we do not find what he said specifically referred to in the texts of the Qur’aan. These verses also enjoin following the Qur’aan even if we do not find what is said in the Qur’aan specifically mentioned in the hadeeth of the Messenger.

So we must follow the Qur’aan and we must follow the Messenger. Following the one implies following the other, for the Messenger conveyed the Book, and the Book commands us to follow the Messenger. The Book and the Messenger do not contradict one another at all, just as the Book does not contradict itself. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Had it been from other than Allaah, they would surely, have found therein many a contradiction”

[al-Nisa’ 4:82]

And there are many ahaadeeth from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) which state that it is obligatory to follow the Qur’aan and that it is obligatory to follow his Sunnah, for example, the hadeeth in which he said: “I do not want to find any one of you reclining on his pillow, and when he hears of something that I have commanded or forbidden, he says, ‘Between us and you there stands this Qur’aan, whatever we find is permissible in it we will take as permissible, and whatever we find is forbidden in it we will take as forbidden.’ For I have been given the Book and something like it with it; it is like the Qur’aan or more.” This hadeeth is narrated in the books of Sunan and Musnad from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) with a number of isnads from Abu Tha’labah, Abu Raafi’, Abu Hurayrah and others.

In Saheeh Muslim is it narrated from Jaabir that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said in his Farewell Sermon: “I am leaving behind among you something which, if you adhere to it, you will not go astray after that. It is the Book of Allaah.” The version narrated by al-Haakim says “The Book of Allaah and my Sunnah.” (Classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Jaami’, 2937).

In al-Saheeh it is narrated from ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Abi Awfa that it was said to him: Did the Messenger of Allaah leave a will? He said, No. It was said, How then is it prescribed for people to make wills when the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) did not make a will? He said, He made a will in which he enjoined (adherence to) the Book of Allaah.

(Narrated by Muslim, 1634)

The Sunnah of the Messenger of Allaah explains the Qur’aan, as it explains the number of prayers, how much should be recited in them, which should be recited out loud and which quietly. It also explains the amounts of zakaah to be paid and the threshold at which zakaah becomes due; the rituals of Hajj and ‘Umrah; how many times one should circumambulate the Ka’bah, go between al-Safa and al-Marwah and stone the Jamaraat, etc.

When any Sunnah is proven to be saheeh, the Muslims are agreed that it is obligatory to follow it. There may be something in the Sunnah which a person thinks appears to go against the apparent meaning of the Qur’aan and add to it, such as the Sunnah which explains the threshold of stealing at which the hadd punishment becomes due, and the Sunnah which stipulates that the married adulterer is to be stoned. This Sunnah must also be followed, according to the view of the Sahaabah and those who followed them in truth, and all the groups of Muslims.

Adapted from Majmoo’ al-Fataawa, 19/84-86

That which was brought by the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) is true just as the Qur’aan is true.

Secondly:

You should not forsake your family; rather you should treat them kindly and strive to call them to follow and accept the Sunnah.

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Invite (mankind, O Muhammad) to the way of your Lord (i.e. Islam) with wisdom (i.e. with the Divine Revelation and the Qur’aan) and fair preaching, and argue with them in a way that is better. Truly, your Lord knows best who has gone astray from His path, and He is the Best Aware of those who are guided”

[al-Nahl 16:125]

“And We have enjoined on man (to be dutiful and good) to his parents. His mother bore him in weakness and hardship upon weakness and hardship, and his weaning is in two years give thanks to Me and to your parents. Unto Me is the final destination.

But if they (both) strive with you to make you join in worship with Me others that of which you have no knowledge, then obey them not; but behave with them in the world kindly, and follow the path of him who turns to Me in repentance and in obedience. Then to Me will be your return, and I shall tell you what you used to do”

[Luqmaan 31:14-15]

And Allaah knows best.



Islam Q&A

http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/9067

 

[Wazeeri]

Imam Wazeeri......I missed out this Gem

Really childish guys. How about we give the topic the respect it deserves rather then getting into a personal fight?

Ladies Man,

If you wish to debate then you will have to try and be a bit more polite.

 

[Wazeeri]

For those who missed it first time around.

CHALLENGE
To prove the necessity of TRUE Ahadith I would like to set you a challenge.
Please explain the following ayat of the Quran without using the following ahadith.

QURAN 59:5Whatever palm-tree you cut down or leave standing upon its roots, It is by Allah's command, and that He may abase the transgressors.

HADITH Volume 6, Book 60, Number 406: Narrated Ibn Umar:
'Allah's Apostle burnt and cut down the palm trees of Bani An-Nadir which were at Al-Buwair (a place near Medina). There upon Allah revealed:

'What you (O Muslims) cut down of the palm trees (of the enemy) or you left them standing on their stems, it was by the leave of Allah, so that He might cover with shame the rebellious.' (59.5)

 

[Zeenix]

Imam Wazeeri......I missed out this Gem

Really childish guys. How about we give the topic the respect it deserves rather then getting into a personal fight?

How about clarifying the garbage you posted about Quran not being a complete book. Does winning an argument mean so much to you, that you take upon the Holy Quran. You were having a go at those who are skeptical about the authority of Ahadith calling them submitters (For those of you not aware of submitters it is a group of people taking Rashad Khalifa as their messenger), now whom should you be taken as..

However i shouldn't have been surprised. After all this has been the attitude all along. Portray Quran as an incomplete book, cast doubts upon it by bringing abrogation, bring up missing verses narrations.

6:114
Shall I seek a judge other than Allah while it is He Who has sent down unto you the Book (The Quran), explained in detail." Those unto whom We gave the Scripture [the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] know that it is revealed from your Lord in truth. So be not you of those who doubt.

P.S
After studying the below Ayat i take back the comment re Imam because it was indeed a sarcastic comment.

Al-Hujraat Ayat No-11
O you who believe! let not some men among you laugh at others: it may be that the (latter) are better than the (former): nor let some women laugh at others: it may be that the (latter) are better than the (former): nor defame nor be sarcastic to each other, nor call each other by (offensive) nicknames: Ill-seeming is a name connoting wickedness, (to be used of one) after he has believed: And those who do not desist are (Indeed) doing wrong..

 

[Wazeeri]

Zeenix

I seriously don't understand the attitude you have taken in this debate.

I have explained the submitters comment to you twice on two different threads.

It seems you are more interested in an argument rather then a debate.

You posted one part of my comment on the completeness of the quran leaving the other one out which answers your question and you talk about someone trying to win a debate. I am arguing against your understanding of the statement re: the completeness of the quran not the completeness of the quran itself.

Shall I seek a judge other than Allah while it is He Who has sent down unto you the Book (The Quran), explained in detail."

(We sent them) with Clear Signs and Books of dark prophecies; and We have sent down unto thee (also) the Message; that thou mayest explain clearly to men what is sent for them, and that they may give thought.

 

[fawad_wellwisher]

FWW

But what about lies
This question is not only a problem for me to answer, it is a problem for you as well. The concept of ahadith is logical and necessary as shown above. We have lies in the collection of ahadith and it is our duty to work out a way of removing these lies.

You have posted about 20 such attempts.

Now to answer your question, I repeat,
Look at the method employed at disntinguishing between the lies and the truths. See which is the most robust.

My criteria is a method
1) Which does not assume knowledge of the mat'n, ie it only rejects the mat'n if it is directly in conflict with the quran.
2) The methods employed are logical ie
- Have the people mentioned in the chain actually met and learnt of each other?
- Are there other narrations/ahadith which support the message in a particular one
-...etc

I am glad that we are now seeing things the same way. It is encouraging to see you agree that Hadith contains lies.

Just to be clear, am I to assume that you have evolved in your pursuit of religious knowledge to the extent that you are ready to reject all hadith that contradicts the Quran?

Sunni vs Shia
If you were involved in many discussions I have had on this forum on the subject of the quran you would know that I have used shia ahadith in my arguments.
I personally agree with the majority of the sunni scholars who have given Bukhari and Muslim preference. These two works have been done the most methodically and the fact that they contain ahadith which supports the shia school of thought shows that the method was put infront of the nafs when compiling the work.

You need to define the scope of the literature you are defending. I only use Quran to follow my Deen. What do you rely on? Please post a list of material that you are defending so that we can set boundaries. That would include I assume both Sunni and Shia Hadith books. Please provide a laundary list so that in order to have a debate with you I can also go and verify your claims.

Once again I would like to highlight that you are playing with the words of the quran (sorry to be so direct). The quran used the word for what it means.

Hadith means speech and the quran uses that word as such.
The tradition of ahadith took up the name because it is the tradition of the speech of Prophet(pbuh).

Here is a challenge for you. Kindly show me from the Quran where the word Hadith has been used in the same meaning as it is being used by traditional muslims.

You are using the ayahs and quoting them out of context to show that these ayahs were some sort of a prophecy against ahadith.
You are misinterpreting the quran just to argue your point against me on this thread. This highlights like i said earlier the scope of misinterpretation of a static text.

And you are being unreasonable and unfortunately not utilizing your God given intellectual and reasoning powers to understand the Quran.

Please read my post again. All I did was to leave the word Hadith untranslated and left it to the reader to decide the meaning. It is the traditional translators who have intentionally mistranslated this word in the Quran to fit the verses according to their belief system. All I did was to leave it in its original state. That fact of the matter is that you are interpreting the verses yourself.

I urge you to indulge yourself in some independent thinking and anlysis instead of relying on third party sources to form your religious beliefs and ideas.

 

[fawad_wellwisher]

For those who missed it first time around.

CHALLENGE
To prove the necessity of TRUE Ahadith I would like to set you a challenge.
Please explain the following ayat of the Quran without using the following ahadith.

QURAN 59:5Whatever palm-tree you cut down or leave standing upon its roots, It is by Allah's command, and that He may abase the transgressors.

HADITH Volume 6, Book 60, Number 406: Narrated Ibn Umar:
'Allah's Apostle burnt and cut down the palm trees of Bani An-Nadir which were at Al-Buwair (a place near Medina). There upon Allah revealed:

'What you (O Muslims) cut down of the palm trees (of the enemy) or you left them standing on their stems, it was by the leave of Allah, so that He might cover with shame the rebellious.' (59.5)

Wazeeri, I truly believe you can do better than that.

The fact of the matter is that this Hadith hardly explains anything but simply/maybe gives a historical context of what allegedly may have happened. I would accept it as an explanation if it would help me following my Deen a little better. That unfortunately it doesn't.

 

[fawad_wellwisher]

Praise be to Allaah.

Firstly:

Every Muslim has to believe in all the ahaadeeth of the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) – if they are saheeh – and not reject any of them, because his ahaadeeth and his Sunnah are revelation (wahy) from Allaah. Whoever rejects the hadeeth of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) has rejected revelation from Allaah.

So you believe Hadith to be divine revelation (Wahy) from Allah? If it is Wahy then why did Allah not promise to protect Hadith from being corrupted just as He did with the Quran?

The one who rejects the Sunnah is a kaafir and an apostate.

FYI, According to the Quran, the criteria of being a kaafir is not to accept/reject 'Sunnah'!


2:256
YUSUFALI: Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.

 

[Ralync]

FYI, According to the Quran, the criteria of being a kaafir is not to accept/reject 'Sunnah'!

2:256
YUSUFALI: Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.

Bro, how can you seriously bring this Ayah to support your point? Please elaborate on how this is a proof for what you say.

 

[Wazeeri]

Just to be clear, am I to assume that you have evolved in your pursuit of religious knowledge to the extent that you are ready to reject all hadith that contradicts the Quran?

Fawad
I hope we can have a decent debate and in order to do so I hope you avoid loaded statements like the above. Contradiction with the quran is a criteria which all famous muhadith and nearly all muhadith set when assessing Hadith. This is not something new which people who reject ahadith as a whole have developed.

You need to define the scope of the literature you are defending.

From this quote I understand that you don't have a problem with the concept of ahadith but particular collections.

I am not willing to defend any collection because they are all works of humans and thus they are likely to contain problems. I generally use all books of ahadith as a source of knowledge, Out of all the famous collection of ahadith I feel sahih Bukhari and Muslim have been collected the most methodically.

Here is a challenge for you. Kindly show me from the Quran where the word Hadith has been used in the same meaning as it is being used by traditional muslims.

That is not an argument against the concept of ahadith. Please elaborate on what exactly you are arguing.
Hadith means speech/saying, the word hadith has been adopted as the title given to the tradition of collecting the sayings of the prophet(pbuh). Is your objection against the name given to this tradition?

I don't understand what argument you are trying to present.

It is the traditional translators who have intentionally mistranslated this word in the Quran to fit the verses according to their belief system

I think your last two arguments have now been confused with each other.

The fact of the matter is that this Hadith hardly explains anything but simply/maybe gives a historical context of what allegedly may have happened.

Is that not what is being argued? that hadith are historical accounts?
I asked you a simple question, explain the ayat without the aid of the hadith.
You replied suggesting that the hadith gives a historical context to the ayat which I would argue proves the importance of ahadith.

I urge you to indulge yourself in some independent thinking and anlysis instead of relying on third party sources to form your religious beliefs and ideas.

Can we keep the debate as academic as possile please.
This suggestion that if I independently read the quran I will agree with you is not an argument but a belief which helps in avoiding the opposing points.

 

[Zeenix]

Zeenix

I seriously don't understand the attitude you have taken in this debate.

I have explained the submitters comment to you twice on two different threads.

It seems you are more interested in an argument rather then a debate.

You posted one part of my comment on the completeness of the quran leaving the other one out which answers your question and you talk about someone trying to win a debate. I am arguing against your understanding of the statement re: the completeness of the quran not the completeness of the quran itself.

Ok, lets have your version. Do you believe

1) That the Ahadith in itself (as in isolation) IS A SOURCE OF LAW.
2) That the Ahadith or Sunnah can abrogate Quran.
3) The Ahadith or Sunnah is immutable.
4) The Quran can Only be understood CORRECTLY under the light of Ahadith.

 

[Ladies Man]

Ok, lets have your version. Do you believe

1) That the Ahadith in itself (as in isolation) IS A SOURCE OF LAW.
2) That the Ahadith or Sunnah can abrogate Quran.
3) The Ahadith or Sunnah is immutable.
4) The Quran can Only be understood CORRECTLY under the light of Ahadith.

Actually Wazeeri, in addition to the legit questions listed above please answer the following as well. I really want you to be very honest to both yourself and everyone else.

5) Do you believe the Quran is complete?
6) Do you believe Allah completed His final message with Prophet Mohammad (PBUH)?

 

[Wazeeri]

1) That the Ahadith in itself (as in isolation) IS A SOURCE OF LAW.
Not in isolation. By law I assume you mean shariah, this is a long and complicated topic but in summary. A lot of the shariah can be changed according to the times and the environment. So whether ahadith is a source of shariah is irrelevant.

But yes it is a source of law but not in isolation.

2) That the Ahadith or Sunnah can abrogate Quran.
No but there are instances where an ahadith is from a time before the completion of the quran hence the quran has abrogated the mat'n of the hadith.

3) The Ahadith or Sunnah is immutable.
No Ahadith is the name given to the tradition of collecting the saying and actions of the prophet(pbuh). Sunnah are the sayings and actions of the Prophet(pbuh).

4) The Quran can Only be understood CORRECTLY under the light of Ahadith.
The quran can only be completely understood by the explanations and teachings of the Prophet(pbuh). He was sent down for this purpose only. A lot of the ayats are straightforward and simple to understand but there are some which we can't just understand by reading alone. This is why the Prophet(pbuh) was sent to us. His explanations are recorded for us in what is know as the tradition of ahadith.

I presented earlier an ayat which you can't understand without the historical context contained only in the ahadith I presented with it.

5) Do you believe the Quran is complete?
Yes but I differ with your (i am assuming) understanding of the word. I don't agree with the belief that this means absolute completeness because if that was the case then we would have a book with infinite pages.

Could I please have your definition of completeness

I believe like I have stated already, Quran has given guidance on every subject we needed spiritual guidance on. The prophet(pbuh) was here to explain this guidance.

6) Do you believe Allah completed His final message with Prophet Mohammad (PBUH)?
Ofcourse I do, and the prophet(pbuh) then explained this message to his people.

 

[Wazeeri]

I really want you to be very honest to both yourself and everyone else.

Can we please have less of the above. You have not attempted any arguments or points so far. The only thing you have added to this thread is pot shots at me and this notion that people who are rejecting ahadith are somehow spiritually superior and honest and those who follow ahadith are part of some big conspiracy.

Let's have a sensible debate.

 

[Wazeeri]

I would also like to ask you guys 1 or 2 questions.

1) Do you agree that there are ayats in the quran which can only be understood by the information we have through ahadith? (if not please answer the post titled challenge).

2) Do you believe that the prophet(pbuh) didn't understand the quran better then us and hence his explanations of the book are not needed?

3) What is your definition of completeness of the quran? please consider salaat, hajj...etc in your answer.

 

[Ladies Man]

2) Do you believe that the prophet(pbuh) didn't understand the quran better then us and hence his explanations of the book are not needed?

This is the crux of the matter that you are unable to grasp. No one here is debating Prophet Mohammad's (PBUH) understanding or commitment to His religion. His sunnah is sufficiently documented in the Quran; and this is what is supposed to be followed blindly no questions asked.

But what you make it sound like though is those hadees books are either in the same category as the Quran; or were written directly by the Prophet, which ofcourse is laughable. Turning a blind eye to these flawed books is neither a crime nor a sin. Rather latching on to innovative ideas listed in these fictional books IS a sin. In fact you haven't listed as to where Allah has encouraged following one hadees book or the other. Why would He to begin with?

Not believing in flimsy storylines of dajjal amongst other notable things surely makes me superior than the rest any given day.

 

[Ladies Man]

3) What is your definition of completeness of the quran? please consider salaat, hajj...etc in your answer.

If you didn't learn namaaz through hadeeth but rather through your elders then don't ever bring up this point in a debate.

You cannot preach to others what you don't follow yourself.

 

[Wazeeri]

If you didn't learn namaaz through hadeeth but rather through your elders then don't ever bring up this point in a debate.

That is the tradition of ahadith.
Prophet(pbuh) taught someone something, that person taught someone else, that person taught someone else.

You are happy with the above process but the problem comes when at some point in this chain people start writing these teachings down.

Please also note you have asked questions, I answered them but you are unwilling to answer my questions.

If you don't want a debate or a discussion please feel free to obstain from posting. If you want a debate then stop repeating rhetoric and debate.

 

[Ladies Man]

Pot calling the kettle black.

You haven't answered my question yet. Where in the Quran does Allah encourage muslims to follow books other than the Quran?

Allah and His Prophet (PBUH) called the Quran complete in every aspect. You chose to call it otherwise. Enough said.

I will not ask you to abstain as the more you debate the deeper the hole you dig yourself into.

ps: there's a general consensus on what the word complete means...you might want to look it up

 

[Wazeeri]

Where in the Quran does Allah encourage muslims to follow books other than the Quran?

Who is talking about other books up here? We are talking about the Prophet(pbuh)'s teachings reaching us as the method of prayer, hajj...etc reached us.

there's a general consensus on what the word complete means...you might want to look it up

Your tone seems very frustrated why can't you just discuss sensibly?
Notice how you didn't answer the question directly, you have just pointed me in the pursuit of some conensus which was reached when I wasn't paying attention.

Tell me what you take complete to mean. Simple request.
Don't point me in the direction where I can get the answer, give me the answer.