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Hagia Sophia reopened for Muslim worship

Do you agree with the Turkish court's decision turn Hagia Sophia into a mosque?


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Turkey's Council of State is due to decide if the Hagia Sophia in Istanbul can be converted into a mosque.

Built in the Sixth Century on the orders of Byzantine Emperor Justinian I, it was the world's largest cathedral for nearly 1,000 years.

The Unesco World Heritage site was turned into a mosque when the Ottoman Empire captured the city in 1453, but became a museum in the 1930s.

It may become a mosque again if the court approves the move on Thursday.

Turkey's President Recep Tayyip Erdogan called for the change during an election rally last year.

Islamists in Turkey have long called for it to be converted, but secular opposition members have opposed the move. The proposal has prompted international criticism, from religious and political leaders worldwide.

The head of the Eastern Orthodox Church has opposed the move, as has Greece - home to many millions of Orthodox followers.

Culture Minister Lina Mendoni has accused Turkey of reviving "fanatical nationalist and religious sentiment", insisting no change to a Unesco World Heritage site can take place without being approved by the body's own intergovernmental committee.

Unesco deputy director Ernesto Ottone Ramirez agreed that wider approval was needed, in an interview with Greek newspaper Ta Nea.

The UN body had written to Turkey about the proposal, but received no reply, he said.

What's the history?
The iconic, domed building sits in Istanbul's Fatih district, on the west bank of the Bosporus.

Justinian I ordered the massive construction built in 532, when the city - then known as Constantinople - was the capital of the Byzantine Empire, also known as the Eastern Roman Empire. Engineers brought materials from across the Mediterranean to build the colossal cathedral.

On completion in 537 it became the seat of the Orthodox patriarch of the capital. Byzantine imperial ceremonies such as coronations took place at the building.

The Hagia Sophia served as the home of the Eastern Orthodox Church for nearly 900 years, barring a brief period in the 13th Century when it was a Catholic cathedral under control of European invaders who ransacked and occupied Constantinople during the Fourth Crusade.

But in 1453, the Ottoman Empire under Sultan Mehmed II captured Constantinople and renamed the city Istanbul, finishing off the Byzantine Empire once and for all.

On entering the Hagia Sophia, Mehmed II insisted it be renovated and converted into a mosque. He attended the first Friday prayers in the building, days after it was ransacked by invading forces.

Ottoman architects removed or plastered over Orthodox symbols inside and added spires and minarets to the structure. Until the completion of Istanbul's Blue Mosque in 1616 the Hagia Sophia was the main mosque in the city, and its architecture inspired builders of the Blue Mosque and several others around the city and the world.

After the end of World War I in 1918, the Ottoman Empire was defeated and divided by the victorious Allies. Nationalist forces, however, rose up and created modern-day Turkey from the ashes of that empire.

The founder of Turkey and the secular republic's first president, Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, ordered the Hagia Sophia to be turned into a museum. Since reopening to the public in 1935 it has become one of Turkey's most visited tourist attractions.

Why does it matter?
Because of its 1,500-year history, the Hagia Sophia holds immense religious, spiritual and political significance for groups inside and outside Turkey.

Islamist groups and devout Muslims demand the building be turned back into a mosque, and have staged protests outside it, against a 1934 law that bars religious services at the site.

President Erdogan has echoed those calls. In a campaign speech ahead of local elections last year he said it had been a "very big mistake" to turn the Hagia Sophia into a museum, and he has since reportedly asked aides to examine how to convert the building.

The head of the Eastern Orthodox Church, known as the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople, is still based in Istanbul. Patriarch Bartholomew I warned on Tuesday that the conversion of the building would "disappoint millions of Christians" and fracture two worlds.

US Secretary of State Mike Pompeo warned that any change in the Hagia Sophia's status would diminish its ability to "serve humanity as a much-needed bridge between those of differing faith traditions and cultures".

Last week US Ambassador at Large for International Religious Freedom Sam Brownback called on Turkey to leave the building as it was.

But Turkish foreign minister Mevlut Cavusoglu insisted that Athens had no say in the decision as the building was on Turkish territory.

"What we do in our country and with our property is up to us," he reportedly told Turkish broadcaster 24 TV.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53232110
 
The above article deserves a separate thread.

Irrespective I think its in India's International interest for the museum to be converted to a mosque so hopefully it happens for my selfish nationalist mindset.
 
The above article deserves a separate thread.

Irrespective I think its in India's International interest for the museum to be converted to a mosque so hopefully it happens for my selfish nationalist mindset.

Why is it in India's national interest? It was built as a holy church that stood for 1000 years and that is what it should be restored to.
 
This is for Turkish people and Erdogan to decide. If they want to convert it to a mosque, they have every right.

I personally would love to see it being converted to a mosque.
 
Russian Orthodox Church says 'unacceptable' to turn Hagia Sophia into a mosque: Ifax

MOSCOW (Reuters) - Converting Istanbul’s Hagia Sophia monument from a museum to a mosque would be “unacceptable”, a senior official in the Russian Orthodox Church said on Saturday.

Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan has proposed restoring the mosque status of the UNESCO World Heritage Site, a sixth century building at the heart of both the Christian Byzantine and Muslim Ottoman empires and now one of Turkey’s most visited monuments.

“We can’t go back to the Middle Ages now,” Metropolitan Hilarion, chairman of the Moscow Patriarchate’s department for external church relations, said on state television, the Interfax news agency reported.

“We live in a multipolar world, we live in a multi-confessional world and we need to respect the feelings of believers.”

He said the Russian Orthodox Church did not understand the motive for Hagia Sophia’s conversion and that it believed domestic politics was behind the move.

“We believe that in the current conditions this act is an unacceptable violation of religious freedom,” he was quoted as saying.

A Turkish court earlier this week heard a case aimed at converting the building back into a mosque and will announce its verdict later this month.

The court case, brought by an NGO for preserving historic monuments, disputes the legality of a decision in 1934, in the early days of the modern secular Turkish state under Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, to convert Hagia Sophia - known in Turkish as Ayasofya - from a mosque into a museum.

The proposal has been criticised by other religious and political leaders.

Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew, the spiritual head of some 300 million Orthodox Christians worldwide and based in Istanbul, said converting it into a mosque would disappoint Christians and would “fracture” East and West.

U.S. Secretary of State Mike Pompeo and the Greek government have also urged Turkey to keep the building as a museum.

Erdogan has described foreign criticism over the proposal as an attack on Turkey’s sovereignty.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...hagia-sophia-into-a-mosque-ifax-idUSKBN2450HP
 
Russian Orthodox Church says 'unacceptable' to turn Hagia Sophia into a mosque: Ifax

MOSCOW (Reuters) - Converting Istanbul’s Hagia Sophia monument from a museum to a mosque would be “unacceptable”, a senior official in the Russian Orthodox Church said on Saturday.

Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan has proposed restoring the mosque status of the UNESCO World Heritage Site, a sixth century building at the heart of both the Christian Byzantine and Muslim Ottoman empires and now one of Turkey’s most visited monuments.

“We can’t go back to the Middle Ages now,” Metropolitan Hilarion, chairman of the Moscow Patriarchate’s department for external church relations, said on state television, the Interfax news agency reported.

“We live in a multipolar world, we live in a multi-confessional world and we need to respect the feelings of believers.”

He said the Russian Orthodox Church did not understand the motive for Hagia Sophia’s conversion and that it believed domestic politics was behind the move.

“We believe that in the current conditions this act is an unacceptable violation of religious freedom,” he was quoted as saying.

A Turkish court earlier this week heard a case aimed at converting the building back into a mosque and will announce its verdict later this month.

The court case, brought by an NGO for preserving historic monuments, disputes the legality of a decision in 1934, in the early days of the modern secular Turkish state under Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, to convert Hagia Sophia - known in Turkish as Ayasofya - from a mosque into a museum.

The proposal has been criticised by other religious and political leaders.

Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew, the spiritual head of some 300 million Orthodox Christians worldwide and based in Istanbul, said converting it into a mosque would disappoint Christians and would “fracture” East and West.

U.S. Secretary of State Mike Pompeo and the Greek government have also urged Turkey to keep the building as a museum.

Erdogan has described foreign criticism over the proposal as an attack on Turkey’s sovereignty.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...hagia-sophia-into-a-mosque-ifax-idUSKBN2450HP

Any comments from him on how Cordova mosque and some other mosques in Spain and Sicily should be converted into museum as well? Currently they’re converted to churches and chapels.
 
Any comments from him on how Cordova mosque and some other mosques in Spain and Sicily should be converted into museum as well? Currently they’re converted to churches and chapels.

Hypocrites is what they are. It's fine the mosques which they have converted into churches for centuries. But now when Turkey is deciding to convert it into a mosque they are crying.
 
It's their country. Absolutely ridiculous other nations think they can dictate anything here. How about turning the cathedrals in Spain back to the mosques?
 
Turkey reconverts Istanbul's Hagia Sophia museum into a mosque

Turkey's president Recep Tayyip Erdogan has declared Istanbul's Hagia Sophia open to Muslim worship after a top court ruled that the building's conversion to a museum by modern Turkey's founding statesman was illegal.

Erdogan made the announcement on Friday an hour after the court ruling was revealed, despite international warnings not to change the status of the nearly 1,500-year-old monument, revered by Christians and Muslims alike.

"The decision was taken to hand over the management of the Ayasofya Mosque ... to the Religious Affairs Directorate and open it for worship," the decision signed by Erdogan said.

Erdogan had previously proposed restoring the mosque status of the UNESCO World Heritage Site, a focal point of both the Christian Byzantine and Muslim Ottoman empires and now one of the most visited monuments in Turkey.

Earlier, a top Turkish court revoked the Byzantine-era Hagia Sophia's status as a museum. The Council of State, which was debating a case brought by a Turkish religious organisation, cancelled a 1934 cabinet decision that defined the sixth-century building as a museum.

"It was concluded that the settlement deed allocated it as a mosque and its use outside this character is not possible legally," Turkey's top administrative court said in the ruling.

"The cabinet decision in 1934 that ended its use as a mosque and defined it as a museum did not comply with laws," it said.

Erdogan shared on his Twitter feed a copy of the decree he had signed which said the decision had been taken to hand control of the Ayasofya Mosque, as it is known in Turkish, to the country's religious directorate and reopen it for worship.

Read more: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020...gia-sophia-museum-status-200710131419431.html
 
So when Muslims want to convert it to a mosque they become fanatics or Islamists. But when Christians are opposing it they are only referred to as orthodox Christians. Are they not equally fanatical?
 
Well done.

It is something for Turkey and Erdogan to decide. Outside world shouldn't interfere.
 
President Recep Tayyip Erdogan declared Istanbul's iconic Hagia Sophia open to Muslim worship on Friday after a top court ruled the building's conversion to a museum by modern Turkey's founding statesman was illegal.

Erdogan made his announcement, just an hour after the court ruling was revealed, despite international warnings not to change the status of the nearly 1,500-year-old monument, revered by Christians and Muslims alike.

"The decision was taken to hand over the management of the Ayasofya Mosque ... to the Religious Affairs Directorate and open it for worship," the decision signed by Erdogan said.

The UNESCO World Heritage Site in Istanbul, a magnet for tourists worldwide, was first constructed as a cathedral in the Christian Byzantine Empire but was converted into a mosque after the Ottoman conquest of Constantinople in 1453.

Awaiting of decision for Hagia Sophia trialThe court decision was followed quickly by Erdogan saying that the UNESCO World Heritage Site in Istanbul would be reopened for Muslim worship.
The Council of State, Turkey's highest administrative court, unanimously cancelled a 1934 cabinet decision and said Hagia Sophia was registered as a mosque in its property deeds.

The United States, Greece and church leaders were among those to express concern about changing the status of the huge sixth-century building, converted into a museum in the early days of the modern secular Turkish state under Mustafa Kemal Ataturk.


Below is a round-up of international reaction to Friday's decisions.

Church leaders
The Russian Orthodox Church expressed dismay at Turkey's decision to revoke the museum status of Hagia Sophia, accusing it of ignoring voices of millions of Christians.

"The concern of millions of Christians has not been heard," Russian Orthodox Church spokesman Vladimir Legoida said in comments carried by the Russian news agency Interfax.

"Today's court ruling shows that all calls for the need for extreme delicacy in this matter were ignored," Legoida said.

The Russian Orthodox Church previously urged caution over calls to alter the status of the historic former cathedral, and Russian Patriarch Kirill said he was "deeply concerned" about such a potential move and called it a "threat to the whole of Christian civilisation".

Previously, Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew, the spiritual head of some 300 million Orthodox Christians worldwide and based in Istanbul, said converting it into a mosque would disappoint Christians and would "fracture" East and West.

Cyprus

Cypriot Foreign Minister Nikos Christodoulides, a Greek Cypriot, posted on his official Twitter account that Cyprus "strongly condemns Turkey's actions on Hagia Sophia in its effort to distract domestic opinion and calls on Turkey to respect its international obligations".

Christodoulides said Turkey's "escalating, flagrant violation of its international obligations is manifested in its decision to alter the designation of Hagia Sophia, a World Heritage Site that is a universal symbol of the Orthodox faith".

Greece
Soon after the ruling, Greece branded Turkey's move an "open provocation to the civilised world".

"The nationalism displayed by Erdogan ... takes his country back six centuries," Culture Minister Lina Mendoni said in a statement.

Mendoni further said the court ruling "absolutely confirms that there is no independent justice" in Turkey.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020...ting-hagia-sophia-mosque-200710135637861.html
 
Turkey was declared a republic in 1923 at which time Hagia Sophia was a mosque. President Ataturk by decree turned it into a museum. So the question before the courts was that move legal.

The courts have ruled that his decree was illegal. For the people who disagree with that verdict, and think that Ataturk had a right to make it into a museum, then President Erdogan also should have the right to turn it into a mosque. If you agree it was illegal, then it should go back to being a mosque.

In the ideal situation Hagia Sophia would be a church again, and Cordoba Cathedral would be a mosque again. Second best option would be for Hagia Sophia to stay as a museum, as Turkey gets a lot of tourist money for that. But its Turkey's choice for what they want to do.
 
Turkey's influence reduces.

Turkey will get more influence in the Middle East now. Europe would never accept the Turks as European, so its not a huge loss that the Europeans are mad.

Same way rest of the world did not reduce India's influence after Babri Masjid. No one cared outside of subcontinent Muslims.
 
Why is it in India's national interest? It was built as a holy church that stood for 1000 years and that is what it should be restored to.

In a perfect scenario there would be a trade. Hagia Sophia becomes a church again, and the Cathedral of Cordoba becomes a mosque again. However that will never happen.
 
Hypocrites is what they are. It's fine the mosques which they have converted into churches for centuries. But now when Turkey is deciding to convert it into a mosque they are crying.

Yep. Same thing they did with the Armenian genocide. Everyone knows about it now. However what is not taught was there was a genocide of Muslims in Europe when the Ottoman Empire lost there European lands. Those were not foreign settlers, those were Europeans who had converted to Islam, and they were either killed or forced to flee to whats now Turkey. majority of the mosques were destroyed. There is a reason that people in Turkey dont look like Central Asian Turks. They are pretty much Europeans, but because of there religion the rest of Europe could care less.
 
Well done.

It is something for Turkey and Erdogan to decide. Outside world shouldn't interfere.

maybe the same muslims, all over the world should stay out of issues regarding Palestine, Kashmir, Uighur, Burma etc,. too in that case.
 
maybe the same muslims, all over the world should stay out of issues regarding Palestine, Kashmir, Uighur, Burma etc,. too in that case.

Buildings aren't living things. Converting one into another doesn't hurt anyone.

Palestinians, Kashmiris, Uighurs, Rohingyas etc. are humans and they are suffering.

That's the difference.
 
Irrespective of what christian right wingers want, this is the right step and only turks get to decide. Others have no locus standi on this matter.
 
if by converting into a mosque they mean stick loudspeakers on it and allow people to pray in there, i dont see any problem, shouldn't change the architecture tho.

it was a mosque for 500 years anyway, as long as people can go and see it and its christian history isn't whitewashed then it doesnt really matter.
 
This is for Turkish people and Erdogan to decide. If they want to convert it to a mosque, they have every right.

I personally would love to see it being converted to a mosque.

I wonder why most people dont have similar considerations when Hindus want their temples back.
 
I wonder why most people dont have similar considerations when Hindus want their temples back.
Christians in Turkey represent 0.3 to 0.4 % of the population but in India Muslim are around 14% and these mosques are used heavily

and from what I've heard stories of temples turning into mosques are mostly bogus most of the time
 
Buildings aren't living things. Converting one into another doesn't hurt anyone.

Palestinians, Kashmiris, Uighurs, Rohingyas etc. are humans and they are suffering.

That's the difference.

Its the same issue really.

Humans suffer because they protect there lands and buildings in those places, if they let go i doubt anyone will suffer.

...and even if we talk about buildings alone, muslims always have problems with china destorying mosques, India regarding law change for hindus to buy land in kashmir, etc.

But when it comes to turning churches into mosque, its an internal matter, thats just double standards and hypocrisy of the highest level.
 
I wonder why most people dont have similar considerations when Hindus want their temples back.

Wrong comparison.

Hagia Sophia has not been a church in a long time. It was a museum. I see no issue in converting a museum into a mosque.

If Hindus want to convert active mosques into temples, that's not logical because those mosques are being used by Muslims and those Muslims are also citizens of the country.
 
I wonder why most people dont have similar considerations when Hindus want their temples back.

Because there is a difference in maintaining the status quo that existed when a country is formed vs going back to the status that existed centuries before a country existed.

An example is of the Shaheed ganj Mosque in Lahore. The Sikhs occupied it and turned into a Gurdwara. But the British refused to let it reopen as a mosque because of statue of limitations, and once Pakistan was created the Pakistani courts refused to change the status as well.
 
Its the same issue really.

Humans suffer because they protect there lands and buildings in those places, if they let go i doubt anyone will suffer.

...and even if we talk about buildings alone, muslims always have problems with china destorying mosques, India regarding law change for hindus to buy land in kashmir, etc.

But when it comes to turning churches into mosque, its an internal matter, thats just double standards and hypocrisy of the highest level.

Again, Hagia Sophia hasn't been a church in a very long time. It was a mosque before it was a museum.

Ataturk turned it into a museum from a mosque. Erdogan is simply correcting Ataturk's mistake.
 
Its certain that the average joe or unless you have visited the site wouldn't have known its status until now.
 
For the people who disagree with that verdict, and think that Ataturk had a right to make it into a museum, then President Erdogan also should have the right to turn it into a mosque.

Converting a 1000 year old church into a mosque in 1450 is illegal, not what Attaturk did.
 
I wonder why most people dont have similar considerations when Hindus want their temples back.

problem is that even when the hindus tore down a mosque and claim it was a temple, your top historians still claim they cannot say the temple was in its the exact place
 
Because there is a difference in maintaining the status quo that existed when a country is formed vs going back to the status that existed centuries before a country existed.

No, there isn't. You're just making up these caveats with each argument lol.

Since the argument here is Turkey is currently in possession of this land and has sovereign rights over it, I don't see anything wrong if tomorrow Netanyahu passes an order to demolish the Al-Aqsa mosque and Dome of the Rock since it stands on holy territory of Jews and Christians. Muslims must not protest.
 
No, there isn't. You're just making up these caveats with each argument lol.

Since the argument here is Turkey is currently in possession of this land and has sovereign rights over it, I don't see anything wrong if tomorrow Netanyahu passes an order to demolish the Al-Aqsa mosque and Dome of the Rock since it stands on holy territory of Jews and Christians. Muslims must not protest.

Muslims are still praying in Al-Aqsa though. It is not an inactive mosque or a museum. That's the difference.
 
Muslims are still praying in Al-Aqsa though. It is not an inactive mosque or a museum. That's the difference.

That is not an argument. Christians would have prayed in the Hagia Sophia if they weren't prevented and had it been restored decades ago to it's original heritage.
 
Here is Orya Maqbool Jan frothing at the mouth hardly a week ago regarding the government's possible plans to allot land for constructing a Hindu temple in Pakistan:



Here is he again yesterday, gleefully planning a trip to say Friday prayers at the Hagia Sophia:

 
No, there isn't. You're just making up these caveats with each argument lol.

Since the argument here is Turkey is currently in possession of this land and has sovereign rights over it, I don't see anything wrong if tomorrow Netanyahu passes an order to demolish the Al-Aqsa mosque and Dome of the Rock since it stands on holy territory of Jews and Christians. Muslims must not protest.

Turkey did not exist as a republic until 1923. When the republic was formed a mosque already existed at that site. When Israel was formed in 1947 a mosque already existed at that site.

So the argument is once a modern country is formed it should respect the status of religious structures at the time of its findings. Not open a Pandora's box in trying to change status to what happened centuries ago. If you open a Pandora's box you will have to go back to the beginning of time.

So if its not clear enough, let me add one more example. India was formed on August 15, 1947. It should not have changed the status of Babri Masjid as no law was violated by Babur if he destroyed a Mandir, but the RSS/VHP ceranilty violated the law when they destroyed it.
 
Christians in Turkey represent 0.3 to 0.4 % of the population but in India Muslim are around 14% and these mosques are used heavily

and from what I've heard stories of temples turning into mosques are mostly bogus most of the time

Doesn't matter if they are used or not. If a majority community in turkey can change a church to mosque to museum to mosque and muslims support it, then same applies to other majority communities in other countries.
 
That is not an argument. Christians would have prayed in the Hagia Sophia if they weren't prevented and had it been restored decades ago to it's original heritage.

How do you know that? Christianity is in decline anyway.

Also, this is about modern Turkey (Turkey from 1921). Not sure why you are bringing up 1430. That period is irrelevant.
 
Wrong comparison.

Hagia Sophia has not been a church in a long time. It was a museum. I see no issue in converting a museum into a mosque.

If Hindus want to convert active mosques into temples, that's not logical because those mosques are being used by Muslims and those Muslims are also citizens of the country.

Muslims can convert active church into mosque, but active mosques which were active temples when converted to mosques cannot be converted to temples?

Have you heard of the word hypocrisy?

Muslims supporting this decision shouldn't complain about hindus or christians or jews converting mosques to their original place of worship.
 
So the argument is once a modern country is formed it should respect the status of religious structures at the time of its findings.

says who lol? There you go.. making up your own moral codes again. Why is 'respecting a religious structure's status' applicable only in 1923 and not in the 1450s?
 
Muslims can convert active church into mosque, but active mosques which were active temples when converted to mosques cannot be converted to temples?

Have you heard of the word hypocrisy?

Muslims supporting this decision shouldn't complain about hindus or christians or jews converting mosques to their original place of worship.

Where are Muslims converting active churches into mosques? Give evidence.

Christians are considered as ahlul kitab (people of the book) in Islam.

Please show some examples.
 
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says who lol? There you go.. making up your own moral codes again. Why is 'respecting a religious structure's status' applicable only in 1923 and not in the 1450s?

1450 is a long time ago. 1923 is more relevant because modern Turkey started from 1920's.

You don't pick and choose. Why stop at 1450? Why not go back to 5000 BC?
 
Because there is a difference in maintaining the status quo that existed when a country is formed vs going back to the status that existed centuries before a country existed.

An example is of the Shaheed ganj Mosque in Lahore. The Sikhs occupied it and turned into a Gurdwara. But the British refused to let it reopen as a mosque because of statue of limitations, and once Pakistan was created the Pakistani courts refused to change the status as well.

By the time pakistan was created, Shaheed ganj mosque was demolished.

How come the statue of limitations doesn't apply to an order passed in 1935?
 
says who lol? There you go.. making up your own moral codes again. Why is 'respecting a religious structure's status' applicable only in 1923 and not in the 1450s?

Once modern countries were created they drafted constitutions which protected the rights of the citizens of those countries. That concept did not exist before. So by saying LOL, it does not change the fact that no Law existed in 1450 which prevented the change of a church into a mosque. But laws certainty existed after 1923 once the Turkish republic was formed, which protects religious sites.

Not a hard concept to understand that humans had different moral standards then. The values we have today did not exist at 1450, so you need to judge people by the time period that they lived in.
 
Once modern countries were created they drafted constitutions which protected the rights of the citizens of those countries. That concept did not exist before. So by saying LOL, it does not change the fact that no Law existed in 1450 which prevented the change of a church into a mosque. But laws certainty existed after 1923 once the Turkish republic was formed, which protects religious sites.

Good. So it's all about sovereignty and laws at the end of the day.

If Netanyahu tomorrow passes a law through his parliament to abolish Dome of the Rock/Al-Aqsa which is on holy territory of Jews and Christians, please don't complain. It doesn't matter whether the site is active or not, law is supreme.
 
Good. So it's all about sovereignty and laws at the end of the day.

If Netanyahu tomorrow passes a law through his parliament to abolish Dome of the Rock/Al-Aqsa which is on holy territory of Jews and Christians, please don't complain. It doesn't matter whether the site is active or not, law is supreme.

First of all, Netanyahu doesn't have the balls to do that. He knows it can bring in trouble for him.

Second of all, Israel was never a legal country in the first place. It is as legal as Crimea (presently occupied by Russia).
 
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Good. So it's all about sovereignty and laws at the end of the day.

If Netanyahu tomorrow passes a law through his parliament to abolish Dome of the Rock/Al-Aqsa which is on holy territory of Jews and Christians, please don't complain. It doesn't matter whether the site is active or not, law is supreme.

Going by your logic if Netanyahu passes a law through parliament saying slavery is legal then it should also be ok then. No one should complain right? But for most people sovereignty is not enough to do whatever you want. You have to respect modern values or you end up as pariah.
 
In the ideal situation Hagia Sophia would be a church again, and Cordoba Cathedral would be a mosque again. Instead of criticizing Turkey, these European leaders should make an offer to trade those two sites. Hagia Sophia is one of the most famous churches, and it would be great for Christians if they could worship there. Same way the Cathedral of Cordoba is one of the most famous mosques and Muslims would love to be able to pray there. Both Turkey and Spain already get a lot of money from those sites, but they would make even more, so there is an economic benefit for both countries as well.
 
Again, Hagia Sophia hasn't been a church in a very long time. It was a mosque before it was a museum.

Ataturk turned it into a museum from a mosque. Erdogan is simply correcting Ataturk's mistake.

It was built to be a church, a landmark church just like Al Aqsa, so why cry when israelis want to shut it down, no locals go to al aqsa, its a tourist spot for muslims, just like the turkish churches would be if the muslims didnt shut them down.

Erdogan is not correcting anyones mistakes lol, he can only dream about becoming Ataturk, and is only an ISIS extremist.
 
Turkey will get more influence in the Middle East now. Europe would never accept the Turks as European, so its not a huge loss that the Europeans are mad.

Same way rest of the world did not reduce India's influence after Babri Masjid. No one cared outside of subcontinent Muslims.

Actually it did... if it wasn't for IRAN, OIC along with USA would had killed us, the gold mortgaging also screwed us though.

It was a combination of things.

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/analysis/opinion-saudis-follow-iran-s-1994-somersault-on-kashmir-at-oic/1730770
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Sit down ppl Sultan Mehmed was the one who conquered the great city of Constantinople and it was his decision the convert Hagia Sophia into the mosque!</p>— K. (@thelostcomrade) <a href="https://twitter.com/thelostcomrade/status/1281635268576108544?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">July 10, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 
They should create a corridor with Greece using public money in times of recession for Greek pilgrims to visit as it'll generate billions in goodwill
 
They should create a corridor with Greece using public money in times of recession for Greek pilgrims to visit as it'll generate billions in goodwill

Lol.. I somehow feel you have a massive dislike for Sikhs?
 
It was built to be a church, a landmark church just like Al Aqsa, so why cry when israelis want to shut it down, no locals go to al aqsa, its a tourist spot for muslims, just like the turkish churches would be if the muslims didnt shut them down.

Erdogan is not correcting anyones mistakes lol, he can only dream about becoming Ataturk, and is only an ISIS extremist.

How is Erdogan an ISIS extremist? Turkey actually fought ISIS. ISIS even killed Turkish troops.

Ataturk wanted to eliminate Turkey's Islamic culture which Erdogan is now restoring.
 
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Lol.. I somehow feel you have a massive dislike for Sikhs?
Nah just dismayed at the naivety of Pakistanis. It's an insidious culture that's of major detriment to Pakistani values - I refer to Indian Punjabi culture.
 
It was built to be a church, a landmark church just like Al Aqsa, so why cry when israelis want to shut it down, no locals go to al aqsa, its a tourist spot for muslims, just like the turkish churches would be if the muslims didnt shut them down.

Erdogan is not correcting anyones mistakes lol, he can only dream about becoming Ataturk, and is only an ISIS extremist.

Don’t know much internal Turkish politics but this part makes no sense tbh. Turkey is actively fighting ISIS aren’t they?
 
Don’t know much internal Turkish politics but this part makes no sense tbh. Turkey is actively fighting ISIS aren’t they?
Stupid remark but Erdogan is becoming a dictator. It's such a fine margin between Muslime and 'secularists' that it can turn either way and Iran is the dangerous precedent.
 
Stupid remark but Erdogan is becoming a dictator. It's such a fine margin between Muslime and 'secularists' that it can turn either way and Iran is the dangerous precedent.

In 'dictators' tenure Turkey's economy has massively improved. They have relied on indigenous development on all fields to move away from West's dependence and has steadily emerged as a strong regional power.

You don't know what you are talking about.
 
In 'dictators' tenure Turkey's economy has massively improved. They have relied on indigenous development on all fields to move away from West's dependence and has steadily emerged as a strong regional power.

You don't know what you are talking about.
Turkey has been on verge of economic collapse in recent years. All the gains made have been offset by over capitalism. Teksim Sq rebellion could've been catastrophic for turkey all due to Erdogan's strange juxtaposition.
 
How is Erdogan an ISIS extremist? Turkey actually fought ISIS. ISIS even killed Turkish troops.

Ataturk wanted to eliminate Turkey's Islamic culture which Erdogan is now restoring.

Don’t know much internal Turkish politics but this part makes no sense tbh. Turkey is actively fighting ISIS aren’t they?

There have been strong reports about Erdogan and ISIS, especially how he use to buy all there stolen oil in the early days, even his family was involved. His daughter ran an NGO on the border treating ISIS solders.

Nevertheless whether you believe it or not, he is most defiantly rather extreme which is quite a fact now.
 
There have been strong reports about Erdogan and ISIS, especially how he use to buy all there stolen oil in the early days, even his family was involved. His daughter ran an NGO on the border treating ISIS solders.

Nevertheless whether you believe it or not, he is most defiantly rather extreme which is quite a fact now.

Turning a cathedral in to a mosque makes his views on Al Aqsa hypocritical
 
This is for Turkish people and Erdogan to decide. If they want to convert it to a mosque, they have every right.

My thoughts exactly, doesn't matter if it was a Mosque or a Church or something else in the past. This is a different time with a different demographic
 
I wonder what was the need for Erdogan to stir this pot at this moment?
There is an even bigger Blue Mosque right across the courtyard :ehh
 
I wonder what was the need for Erdogan to stir this pot at this moment?
There is an even bigger Blue Mosque right across the courtyard :ehh

well turkey is transforming back into being religious - the people are becoming more Islamic
 
Don’t know much internal Turkish politics but this part makes no sense tbh. Turkey is actively fighting ISIS aren’t they?

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Ankara claims to oppose the Islamic State. Its actions suggest otherwise.

Beginning in late 2013 and early 2014, Turkish border cities became the chief logistical hubs for foreign fighters seeking to enter Syria and Iraq to join the Islamic State and other rebel groups. By all accounts, foreign fighters from around the globe first traveled to Turkey and then on to Iraq and Syria, forming the backbone and striking power of the Islamic State. In 2013 alone, some 30,000 militants traversed Turkish soil, establishing the so-called jihadi highway, as the country became a conduit for fighters seeking to join the Islamic State.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/04/12/turkeys-double-isis-standard/

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From what I understand the Christians sold the church to the Ottomans. Ataturk changed the status of building to a museum, without proper legal process.

Anyway, it will be free to enter I suppose now as to entry tickets will be abolished.
 
This move is mainly for the internal politics, the economy is not doing that well, last remnants of free speech being destroyed.
Ofcourse it is easy to sell it as being Islamic and all that, there will always be a lot of people who buy that **.
Political islam is all about symbols and much less about being actually a good person. That is why it is such a big lie.
 
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Ankara claims to oppose the Islamic State. Its actions suggest otherwise.

Beginning in late 2013 and early 2014, Turkish border cities became the chief logistical hubs for foreign fighters seeking to enter Syria and Iraq to join the Islamic State and other rebel groups. By all accounts, foreign fighters from around the globe first traveled to Turkey and then on to Iraq and Syria, forming the backbone and striking power of the Islamic State. In 2013 alone, some 30,000 militants traversed Turkish soil, establishing the so-called jihadi highway, as the country became a conduit for fighters seeking to join the Islamic State.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/04/12/turkeys-double-isis-standard/

-------------------------------

These two are facts - 1) Turkey has fought ISIS, and 2) ISIS has killed Turkish troops.

I used to follow Syrian conflict quite extensively. I was following people who were in Syria (journalists, Kurdish activists, YPG, YPJ, Syrian rebels etc.). What I found out was Turkey turned a blind eye to ISIS to avoid potential retaliation. It worked because ISIS for a while didn't attack Turkey.

It is wrong to say Turkey or Erdogan supported ISIS.
 
This move is mainly for the internal politics, the economy is not doing that well, last remnants of free speech being destroyed.
Ofcourse it is easy to sell it as being Islamic and all that, there will always be a lot of people who buy that **.
Political islam is all about symbols and much less about being actually a good person. That is why it is such a big lie.

I was talking to a Turkish friend and he said it’s unlikely to become a full fledged mosque with daily congregational prayers etc and most likely just a small area will be set aside for prayers. It will keep functioning as a tourist site. However it’s being projected for political purposes as reconversion to being a mosque as a sign of flexing muscle to the Erdogans rural conservative base.

In any case; the blue mosque which is significantly bigger is just a stone throws away (quite literally) so I personally don’t even see the point. When I want to pray I want to pray at peace rather than it being some spectacle with paintings of Mary on the ceilings and random tourists roaming around. The artwork is huge and not erasable. Anyone who wants to genuinely pray would prefer the sultanahmet mosque.

One of my best friends in college was Turkish so I used to really follow what’s going on at turkey. Erdogan was always right wing but till 2013 or so the economy was doing well so he didn’t need to resort to throwingsuch ‘Hail Marys’ to drum up support. In recent years he’s definitely become dictatorial and quite honestly seems like he’s losing the plot. I used to be a big fan of him. He was right wing and there’s nothing wrong with that since he was reasonable in most aspects but he’s just losing the plot.

I think the biggest disqualifier for him from my perspective was that till the mid 2010s I would wish that Pakistan had a leader like him and would often just be baffled as to why my friend was so against Erdogan despite the solid performance. But now I wouldn’t want him for Pakistan either.
 
When I want to pray I want to pray at peace rather than it being some spectacle with paintings of Mary on the ceilings and random tourists roaming around. The artwork is huge and not erasable. Anyone who wants to genuinely pray would prefer the sultanahmet mosque.

Why would paintings not be erasable?

Any structure can be remodeled.
 
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