Hagia Sophia reopened for Muslim worship

[Slog]

From what I understand the Christians sold the church to the Ottomans. Ataturk changed the status of building to a museum, without proper legal process.

Anyway, it will be free to enter I suppose now as to entry tickets will be abolished.

Your understanding couldn’t be more wrong lol. Like where do you get this even.

It was converted by Ottomans after conquering Constantinople. That was custom of the time and besides the city was inhabited by Turks anyway so the local population became majority Muslim. I don’t think you can hold people or anyone at fault for converting at the time because that was simply the practise but just making up stories to justify is stupid

 

[cricketjoshila]

When was the last time it was a church? Also, I mentioned active church.

Furthermore, please mention something that was recent.

Why more recent? It was built as a church and forcibly converted to a mosque. Thats the reality.

Muslims shouldn't complain when others do the same to converted mosques. Jews at Al Aqsa or Hindus at Kashi and Mathura have same rights as muslims in Hagia Sofia.

Principles cant be one when Muslims are in majority and another when they are in minority.

 

[cricketjoshila]

My thoughts exactly, doesn't matter if it was a Mosque or a Church or something else in the past. This is a different time with a different demographic

This demographic excuse should be applied to all?

 

[Slog]

Why would paintings not be erasable?

Any structure can be remodeled.

Ottomans tried and they were unable to do so. And had to plaster over it which has come off.

And they hardly must have cared to preserve Christian wall paintings

 

[sweep_shot]

Why more recent? It was built as a church and forcibly converted to a mosque. Thats the reality.

Muslims shouldn't complain when others do the same to converted mosques. Jews at Al Aqsa or Hindus at Kashi and Mathura have same rights as muslims in Hagia Sofia.

Principles cant be one when Muslims are in majority and another when they are in minority.

Timeline matters.

During the old days, it was common for a conquering army to convert buildings. Many mosques were converted to churches. One example would be Cordoba mosque (now a church). Check here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianized_sites#Iberian_Peninsula.

Also, European Jews have no business being in Israel. They migrated to Israel after WW2 and replaced the ethnic Arabs. Israel was and still is an illegitimate state.

 

[sweep_shot]

Ottomans tried and they were unable to do so. And had to plaster over it which has come off.

And they hardly must have cared to preserve Christian wall paintings

Ottomans? That was 100 years ago?

I am sure there are better technologies available now. Also, modern Turkey is much more capable.

 

[Slog]

Why more recent? It was built as a church and forcibly converted to a mosque. Thats the reality.

Muslims shouldn't complain when others do the same to converted mosques. Jews at Al Aqsa or Hindus at Kashi and Mathura have same rights as muslims in Hagia Sofia.

Principles cant be one when Muslims are in majority and another when they are in minority.

I personally think there should a statute that you don’t go beyond certain point. The simple fact is that in medieval times and prior most conquerors would modify an annexed places landmarks to something closer to their own culture.

For eg I wouldn’t personally want Córdoba cathedral and Seville cathedral to be reconverted to mosques. Just recognize history at most. This way you are going down a very slippery slope.

Btw don’t support this decision either. It’s been a museum for 80 years and most people fine with it. This is obv a play to the right wing like the Ram temple issue (don’t wanna get into an argument on it or merits - but the political play is similar)

 

[TurkishCricketFan]

I was talking to a Turkish friend and he said it’s unlikely to become a full fledged mosque with daily congregational prayers etc and most likely just a small area will be set aside for prayers. It will keep functioning as a tourist site. However it’s being projected for political purposes as reconversion to being a mosque as a sign of flexing muscle to the Erdogans rural conservative base.

In any case; the blue mosque which is significantly bigger is just a stone throws away (quite literally) so I personally don’t even see the point. When I want to pray I want to pray at peace rather than it being some spectacle with paintings of Mary on the ceilings and random tourists roaming around. The artwork is huge and not erasable. Anyone who wants to genuinely pray would prefer the sultanahmet mosque.

One of my best friends in college was Turkish so I used to really follow what’s going on at turkey. Erdogan was always right wing but till 2013 or so the economy was doing well so he didn’t need to resort to throwingsuch ‘Hail Marys’ to drum up support. In recent years he’s definitely become dictatorial and quite honestly seems like he’s losing the plot. I used to be a big fan of him. He was right wing and there’s nothing wrong with that since he was reasonable in most aspects but he’s just losing the plot.

I think the biggest disqualifier for him from my perspective was that till the mid 2010s I would wish that Pakistan had a leader like him and would often just be baffled as to why my friend was so against Erdogan despite the solid performance. But now I wouldn’t want him for Pakistan either.

I was never a supporter of Erdogan and his party. But here is the thing, his movement was a collective process up until 2012-2013 which consisted of many important figures with true Islamic roots and they seemed to value free speech and were tolerant of others lifestyles etc. Economy did well, Turkey was all the while shifting right but still there was avenues for other political views to exist.

Erdogan and his recently acquired cronies got rid of all other figure heads in their own party. A cult of Erdogan was pushed first within the party and then this was extended to the whole state apparatus.

There is so much to say but just to summarise currently Turkey is a dictatorship of the majority (51%). I think the trend is common around the world where populist leaders who stir up nationalist/religious sentiments and feed on the fears of the uneducated are getting more and more power. USA / Russia / India / Brazil / Turkey for me are in a loosely similar situation.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

I was never a supporter of Erdogan and his party. But here is the thing, his movement was a collective process up until 2012-2013 which consisted of many important figures with true Islamic roots and they seemed to value free speech and were tolerant of others lifestyles etc. Economy did well, Turkey was all the while shifting right but still there was avenues for other political views to exist.

Erdogan and his recently acquired cronies got rid of all other figure heads in their own party. A cult of Erdogan was pushed first within the party and then this was extended to the whole state apparatus.

There is so much to say but just to summarise currently Turkey is a dictatorship of the majority (51%). I think the trend is common around the world where populist leaders who stir up nationalist/religious sentiments and feed on the fears of the uneducated are getting more and more power. USA / Russia / India / Brazil / Turkey for me are in a loosely similar situation.

Do you think Turkey is still a good role model for other Muslim countries to follow? Alot of Pakistanis always looked to Turkey as a country that they would like to emulate. Turkey seemed like a country with a strong Muslim identity, but it had a separation of mosque and state. Add that economically its one of the stronger Muslim countries, people in Pakistan have idealized the "Turkish Model".

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

I personally think there should a statute that you don’t go beyond certain point. The simple fact is that in medieval times and prior most conquerors would modify an annexed places landmarks to something closer to their own culture.

For eg I wouldn’t personally want Córdoba cathedral and Seville cathedral to be reconverted to mosques. Just recognize history at most. This way you are going down a very slippery slope.

Btw don’t support this decision either. It’s been a museum for 80 years and most people fine with it. This is obv a play to the right wing like the Ram temple issue (don’t wanna get into an argument on it or merits - but the political play is similar)

Most courts recognize that principal as well. Otherwise we can back to the beginning of time. There was a case in Pakistan with the Shaheed Ganj mosque which was destroyed by Sikhs and turned into a Gurdwara. Both British and Pakistani courts refused to give the land back to Muslims because of the time that had went by.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

Why more recent? It was built as a church and forcibly converted to a mosque. Thats the reality.

Muslims shouldn't complain when others do the same to converted mosques. Jews at Al Aqsa or Hindus at Kashi and Mathura have same rights as muslims in Hagia Sofia.

Principles cant be one when Muslims are in majority and another when they are in minority.

The Second Jewish temple was destroyed by Romans. Muslims built a mosque and a shrine at that site 700 years later, when it was being used by Christians as a garbage dump. I dont know how you can blame for Muslims for that one, unless you think Muslims have an obligation before building a mosque on an empty site to check who owned that land centuries years ago.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Timeline matters.

During the old days, it was common for a conquering army to convert buildings. Many mosques were converted to churches. One example would be Cordoba mosque (now a church). Check here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianized_sites#Iberian_Peninsula.

Also, European Jews have no business being in Israel. They migrated to Israel after WW2 and replaced the ethnic Arabs. Israel was and still is an illegitimate state.

Jews were and are the original inhabitants of Israel and Jerusalem, long before Islam even came into being. Israel exists and it will continue to exist.

The hypocrisy of people like you is astonishing. If muslims conquer something, or muslims are in majority, their writ should run. But when muslims lose power or are in minority then also the majority and victors should toe the muslim line. This hypocrisy wont last long. Slowly the people are realising this. Muslims are free to do whatever they want in the countries they are in majority, but others will do as they please in the countries they are in majority. This hypocrisy will be answered in the same vein.

 

[cricketjoshila]

I personally think there should a statute that you don’t go beyond certain point. The simple fact is that in medieval times and prior most conquerors would modify an annexed places landmarks to something closer to their own culture.

For eg I wouldn’t personally want Córdoba cathedral and Seville cathedral to be reconverted to mosques. Just recognize history at most. This way you are going down a very slippery slope.

Btw don’t support this decision either. It’s been a museum for 80 years and most people fine with it. This is obv a play to the right wing like the Ram temple issue (don’t wanna get into an argument on it or merits - but the political play is similar)

There wont be a statute in muslim majority nations because people like zia ul haq or erdogan will use religion to trample over it.

This is a very bad precedent. Hagia Sofia is no ordinary place.

 

[sweep_shot]

Jews were and are the original inhabitants of Israel and Jerusalem, long before Islam even came into being. Israel exists and it will continue to exist.

The hypocrisy of people like you is astonishing. If muslims conquer something, or muslims are in majority, their writ should run. But when muslims lose power or are in minority then also the majority and victors should toe the muslim line. This hypocrisy wont last long. Slowly the people are realising this. Muslims are free to do whatever they want in the countries they are in majority, but others will do as they please in the countries they are in majority. This hypocrisy will be answered in the same vein.

First of all, it makes me laugh when you (a Hindu) tries to defend Jews. Judaism is against idol worship too. Judaism and Islam have lots of similarities theologically. We have a lot of common prophets (peace be upon them all).

Second of all, you may not understand the dynamics in that part of the world because you are not a Muslim, Christian, or Jew. You have no connection with that place like folks from Abrahamic religions have. It is not just a political conflict but also a theological conflict.

Thirdly, I posted you a link. Please check. Many mosques were converted into churches. It was quite common for a conquering army to change a religious structure. Don't let your hatred make you ignore facts.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

First of all, it makes me laugh when you (a Hindu) tries to defend Jews. Judaism is against idol worship too. Judaism and Islam have lots of similarities theologically. We have a lot of common prophets (peace be upon them all).

Second of all, you may not understand the dynamics in that part of the world because you are not a Muslim, Christian, or Jew. You have no connection with that place like folks from Abrahamic religions have. It is not just a political conflict but also a theological conflict.

Thirdly, I posted you a link. Please check. Many mosques were converted into churches. It was quite common for a conquering army to change a religious structure. Don't let your hatred make you ignore facts.

There is a reason for that. Per Hindutva land belongs to people whose culture and religion originated on that land. So Jews have there religion and language originating in Palestine, so it rightfully belongs to them. So it doesn't matter if Europeans Jews look European, Middle Eastern Jews look Middle Eastern, African Jews look African. They are all natives of Palestine, and they are all the same people. It doesn't matter that the Jewish population was like 1% in the 18th century. It does not matter that the ancient Jews converted to Christianity and then Islam. The Jews are still native to that land, and the Palestinians are foreigners from Arabia.

 

[sweep_shot]

Muslims are free to do whatever they want in the countries they are in majority, but others will do as they please in the countries they are in majority. This hypocrisy will be answered in the same vein.

Blah blah.

At the end of the day, God determines the victors. If God decides to give Muslims victory anywhere, nobody has the power to stop it.

Palestine will be liberated one day by the will of God.

 

[sweep_shot]

There is a reason for that. Per Hindutva land belongs to people whose culture and religion originated on that land. So Jews have there religion and language originating in Palestine, so it rightfully belongs to them. So it doesn't matter if Europeans Jews look European, Middle Eastern Jews look Middle Eastern, African Jews look African. They are all natives of Palestine, and they are all the same people. It doesn't matter that the Jewish population was like 1% in the 18th century. It does not matter that the ancient Jews converted to Christianity and then Islam. The Jews are still native to that land, and the Palestinians are foreigners from Arabia.

Hindutva mindset/ideology is not applicable worldwide. It is something many Indian Hindus or secular Indians don't understand. Middle East is a different place with different dynamics.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

Jews were and are the original inhabitants of Israel and Jerusalem, long before Islam even came into being. Israel exists and it will continue to exist.

The hypocrisy of people like you is astonishing. If muslims conquer something, or muslims are in majority, their writ should run. But when muslims lose power or are in minority then also the majority and victors should toe the muslim line. This hypocrisy wont last long. Slowly the people are realising this. Muslims are free to do whatever they want in the countries they are in majority, but others will do as they please in the countries they are in majority. This hypocrisy will be answered in the same vein.

Muslims feel its the exact opposite, that the non Muslims are the ones who are hypocrites. For example when Muslims had political power in Spain, Christians were allowed to practice there religion. They had some discrimination, but by the standards of that era they were treated well. When Christians got political power back they expelled or forcibly converted all the Muslims. The Spanish Muslims were either natives of Iberia, or they were mixed with native and Arab/Berber blood. They were not foreigners there. Yet that did not stop them from being a victim of genocide. All there mosques were destroyed or turned into churches.

What Hagia Sophia is for Christians that's what Cordoba Mosque would be for Muslims.


Same thing happened in Sicily, Serbia, Bulgaria, Greece.

Everyone knows about the Armenian genocide, how many people know that Muslims were a victim of genocide in Europe once Ottomans lost those lands. Again those were not foreign settlers, those were Europeans who had converted to Islam, and they were either killed or forced to flee to whats now Turkey. majority of the mosques were destroyed. There is a reason that people in Turkey dont look like Central Asian Turks. They are pretty much Europeans, but because of there religion the rest of Europe could care less.

So Muslims are not getting back any of those mosques that were destroyed or turned into churches, yet they need to feel guilty for doing the same thing?

With that said i would rather the Hagia Sophia stay as a Museum. But the hypocrisy of Non Muslims is truly astonishing.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

Hindutva mindset/ideology is not applicable worldwide. It is something many Indian Hindus or secular Indians don't understand. Middle East is a different place with different dynamics.

Well most Jews feel the same way, that the land belongs to them even if they did no live there in 1,000 or 2,000 years, because there religion and language was developed there. So the land belongs to them. Most of them are convinced that the Palestinians came from Arabia, even though the majority of them would have some local blood. They are convinced that the blonde hair blue eye Jews from France are the same people as the dark skin Yemeni Jews.

 

[Savak]

Looks like Mustafa Kemal Ataturks legacy and impact on Turkey is now ending. And why not, the world will be a much more interesting place with a more Islamic Oriented Turkey

 

[sweep_shot]

You are the same person that doesn't care about 1971 but you care about 1934, why does it matter to you that it is now becoming a mosque, this is almost 80 years ago?

Well, I support Erdogan's decision and that's my choice.

 

[JaDed]

Looks like Mustafa Kemal Ataturks legacy and impact on Turkey is now ending. And why not, the world will be a much more interesting place with a more Islamic Oriented Turkey

Yup,I think religious identity is going to be a thing in this century, who would had thought in starting of the century that politics would be more along religious line.

 

[JaDed]

Well, I support Erdogan's decision and that's my choice.

Ofcourse it's your choice, question is about the reasoning of your choice where you specifically said in a post history of 1971 was long ago and it doesn't matter anymore, what you meant was you will choose which history matters to you and be a hypocrite about it..as this mosque has absolutely nothing to do with you as such.

 

[sweep_shot]

Ofcourse it's your choice, question is about the reasoning of your choice where you specifically said in a post history of 1971 was long ago and it doesn't matter anymore, what you meant was you will choose which history matters to you and be a hypocrite about it..as this mosque has absolutely nothing to do with you as such.

As a Muslim, I would support mosque wherever it is. Mosques are houses of God. How about you stop going off-topic?

I am not hypocritical. I am very secure about my stances.

 

[Slog]

Yup,I think religious identity is going to be a thing in this century, who would had thought in starting of the century that politics would be more along religious line.

It’s funny how things are turning out though lol. In the early 2000s it was almost universally accepted notion that new generations are moving away from religion and the next would be largely irreligious society.

However I would say with the exception of perhaps Western Europe most regions of the world are becoming more religiously inclined than at any point over the last century.

India, US, Turkey, Balkans, Spanish speaking South America (regions which I have followed loosely or visited) are all more religious going into the 2020s than when they entered 2000s

 

[Kashmirilion]

Awful decision and the fall of erdogan begins.

Any Muslims condoning this need to get educated.

Read below:


One of the best examples of strictly safeguarding the rights of non-Muslims and their freedom to practice their religions in early Islamic history was the practice of Umar Ibn Al-Khattab, the second caliph of Islam. Umar was particularly sensitive to the demands of justice concerning non-Muslims living under his authority. In a famous story, Umar was invited by the patriarch of the Church of the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem to pray inside the church. Umar refused, however, not out of reluctance to pray inside a church, but rather because he feared some ignorant Muslims might seize the church after him and turn it into a sort of shrine.

“If I prayed inside the church, the Muslims after me would take it and they would say: ‘Umar prayed here’,” Ibn Al-Khattab said.

This church still exists today in Jerusalem as the headquarters of the Eastern Orthodox Patriarch of Jerusalem, even though it was under the authority of Muslims for centuries.

 

[Greenstorm]

It should have remained as museum. Muslims won't get anything out of this conversion.

Instead, Erodgan should have lobbied for the conversion of Cordoba cathedral into museum/mosque while using Hagia Sophia for bargain. That move would have further enhanced his status in Muslim ummah.

 

[Greenstorm]

Awful decision and the fall of erdogan begins.

Any Muslims condoning this need to get educated.

Read below:


One of the best examples of strictly safeguarding the rights of non-Muslims and their freedom to practice their religions in early Islamic history was the practice of Umar Ibn Al-Khattab, the second caliph of Islam. Umar was particularly sensitive to the demands of justice concerning non-Muslims living under his authority. In a famous story, Umar was invited by the patriarch of the Church of the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem to pray inside the church. Umar refused, however, not out of reluctance to pray inside a church, but rather because he feared some ignorant Muslims might seize the church after him and turn it into a sort of shrine.

“If I prayed inside the church, the Muslims after me would take it and they would say: ‘Umar prayed here’,” Ibn Al-Khattab said.

This church still exists today in Jerusalem as the headquarters of the Eastern Orthodox Patriarch of Jerusalem, even though it was under the authority of Muslims for centuries.

This. It isn't Islamic at all to convert or destroy places of worship.

 

[Giannis]

Spain converted over 600 mosques to Churches, this is just one church/mosque being restored.

To the moderator team, the title isn't accurate because the Hagia Sophia was already converted to a mosque centuries ago under the Ottomans and was a functioning mosque up until the 1930s, so in reality it is being restored as a mosque.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Spain converted over 600 mosques to Churches, this is just one church/mosque being restored.

To the moderator team, the title isn't accurate because the Hagia Sophia was already converted to a mosque centuries ago under the Ottomans and was a functioning mosque up until the 1930s, so in reality it is being restored as a mosque.

Spain did the right thing, and Turkey is doing the right thing now. Claim what is theirs. The land, the laws and the landmarks should be for the use of the current owners. Surprised Turkey took so long.

 

[Kashur_Kalkharab]

Some people have really been trying to justify some crap they have been doing in their countries. The problem is simple, they view Islam as a problem and will try to use any tactics to do things against Muslims. Sometimes by acting secular,sometimes being polite, sometimes by presenting a new world order.
All people who have problem with a building being used for a particular purpose need to provide a rational reasons why is it harmful and why should be an actual scenario.

What is amazing that a building which had been used as a mosque was changed to a musium in an entirely Muslim state. This gives an indication of some conspiracies that might have been prevailing (it is no possible to get this sort of stuff done without conspiracy).
I think this move by Endrogon is actually an answer to those internal elements who played in hands of plotters.
Converting a church into mosque can be questioned but people should not have any problem with this being done to musium. Now answer to the argument that before some ages back there existed church,the state was won by them in a battle(in which you have loss of lot of possession and lives) and they had every right after that to live their lives as the would wish.
Comparing it with babri masjid, which was almost demolished by hinduvita goons, is something that every one will have hard time in justifying. At least they can hide behind their court now, but in actual world it would never be accept. Would have been more justifiable if they won it in any battle or it has currently been a mosque.

 

[Giannis]

Timeline matters.

During the old days, it was common for a conquering army to convert buildings. Many mosques were converted to churches. One example would be Cordoba mosque (now a church). Check here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianized_sites#Iberian_Peninsula.

Also, European Jews have no business being in Israel. They migrated to Israel after WW2 and replaced the ethnic Arabs. Israel was and still is an illegitimate state.

Not just the European (Ashkenazi) Jews but also the Mizrahim and Sephardi jews who migrated from other middle eastern and north african countries are also occupiers regardless of the fact that they're culturally and physically Arabs.

 

[OldWarHorse]

Hindutva mindset/ideology is not applicable worldwide. It is something many Indian Hindus or secular Indians don't understand. Middle East is a different place with different dynamics.

Its not just Hindutva ideology, Israel is a country, period. Its a recognized member of the UN and other international bodies with diplomatic missions worldwide. Only the Arabs and some Islamic nations do not recognise it but tbh nobody cares. The rising chess superstar Alireza Firouzja is going to change his nationality to France from Iran cause Iran doesn't allow its players to play against Israelis. The governing body FIDE doesn't care. Its a loss for Iran not Israel.
As you say history is written by the victors and the Jews managed to carve out their nation where they felt where their roots lied. Well you may question their ways, but that's how it has been historically. They used their political, economical and military means to stay and expand while the Arabs tried to wipe them off the Earth. It is how it is. Until that status changes, Israel is a country. You may continue to believe otherwise.

 

[Zaz]

I guess under a legal ruling the conversion to a mueseum could be viewed as illegal as it was a masjid 90 years back and beyond for 500 years

However Theres no reason to turn the hagia sophia back into a masjid now unless your looking to gain political leverage and islamic votes

 

[globalcitizen]

If majority practices Islam, then there is no reason for church to exist there. historically it was a mosque and converted later.
It’s an internal matter and no one outside can question whatever their reasons are.
But always apply the same logic to what happens in other countries. No outsider can question them what ever their reasons or motives are.

 

[gani999]

Do you think Turkey is still a good role model for other Muslim countries to follow? Alot of Pakistanis always looked to Turkey as a country that they would like to emulate. Turkey seemed like a country with a strong Muslim identity, but it had a separation of mosque and state. Add that economically its one of the stronger Muslim countries, people in Pakistan have idealized the "Turkish Model".

Turkey is better than most others as a role model but its imperious, conquering and somewhat bloody past (the Armenian massacre and the others) goes against it somewhat.

I have always thought that Indonesia is better role model for muslim countries than Turkey. Indonesia is over 90% muslim and apart from some bad press in East Timor (now independent) has had an excellent record of human rights and respect for its minorities.

 

[JaDed]

It’s funny how things are turning out though lol. In the early 2000s it was almost universally accepted notion that new generations are moving away from religion and the next would be largely irreligious society.

However I would say with the exception of perhaps Western Europe most regions of the world are becoming more religiously inclined than at any point over the last century.

India, US, Turkey, Balkans, Spanish speaking South America (regions which I have followed loosely or visited) are all more religious going into the 2020s than when they entered 2000s

I do think current generations are less religious in a " devoted faith" way, my assumption is its more of a political movement.

Also the monetary movements of Evangelicals in USA where they showed the entire world how using media tremendous money could be made is another reason for the reach of religion within each country.

Latin America tbf is the most shocking of em, esp Brazil they have almost gone alt right.

 

[MenInG]

I am glad that Turkey has taken this decision.

I have always loved Turkey for its Islamic heritage and I hated what Ataturk did to them by wiping away their language and Islamic roots.

Well done to Erdogan.

 

[sweep_shot]

This. It isn't Islamic at all to convert or destroy places of worship.

Awful decision and the fall of erdogan begins.

Any Muslims condoning this need to get educated.

This was a museum though.

Ataturk turned it into a museum which Erdogan is now reversing.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

While I would have like for this to stay a museum, or go back to being a church if Muslims got Cordoba Mosque, people are ignoring the following facts.

1 - Turkey was founded in 1923, at which point Hagia Sophia was a mosque.
2 - President Ataturk made it into a Museum. So the question before the court is was that decision legal.
3 - The courts ruled that the decision was not legal, so therefore the Museum goes back to the status it was before it was made a museum.
4 - Turkish courts are under no obligation to open a Pandora's Box and legislate on matters centuries before the country was formed.

If people look at this without emotion, morality, and simply in terms of legality the decision is sound.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

Turkey is better than most others as a role model but its imperious, conquering and somewhat bloody past (the Armenian massacre and the others) goes against it somewhat.

I have always thought that Indonesia is better role model for muslim countries than Turkey. Indonesia is over 90% muslim and apart from some bad press in East Timor (now independent) has had an excellent record of human rights and respect for its minorities.

All of humanity has a bloody past. But i agree that Indonesia is also a good role model for other Muslim countries. But it might be a stretch to say it has an excellent record on human rights.

 

[topspin]

I am glad that Turkey has taken this decision.

I have always loved Turkey for its Islamic heritage and I hated what Ataturk did to them by wiping away their language and Islamic roots.

Well done to Erdogan.

I don't know if you've been to Turkey but if you have, you will know Ataturk is a revered figure over there. There are countless number of statues, paintings and etc of him wherever you go in Turkey. The reason is because his reforms made Turkey a more prosperous nation. They are well ahead of all other Muslim majority countries in terms human development.

I don't agree with some of the things that Ataturk did, such as when he had banned the adhaan. However, there are no developed Muslim countries but Turkey is the closest you will find to reaching that status. Turkey owes him for making their country the modern state that it is today.

As mentioned by kashmirlion and Greenstorm (in posts 106-108), it is actually unislamic to convert what was originally a place of worship for Christians.

 

[sweep_shot]

I don't agree with some of the things that Ataturk did, such as when he had banned the adhaan. However, there are no developed Muslim countries but Turkey is the closest you will find to reaching that status. Turkey owes him for making their country the modern state that it is today.

If Ataturk had banned adhan, what does it tell you about him? What kind of idiot bans adhan in a Muslim state?

 

[KB]

I do think current generations are less religious in a " devoted faith" way, my assumption is its more of a political movement.

I am not sure whether this correct or not. But the distinction hinted here between religion as faith and religion as identity, reminds me of a couplet from that wonderful poet of satire, Akbar Allahabadi (1846-1921), who noted sarcastically:

Nai tahzib men diqqat ziyada to nahin hoti
Mazahib rahte hain qaaim faqat imaan jaata hai

(Not so troubling are these modern times / religions remain intact, only faith is lost).

 

[topspin]

If Ataturk had banned adhan, what does it tell you about him? What kind of idiot bans adhan in a Muslim state?

Go to Turkey and tell them that Ataturk was an idiot. Let me know how they react. That's ofc if you make it back to Canada alive, without being arrested.

 

[TurkishCricketFan]

I am glad that Turkey has taken this decision.

I have always loved Turkey for its Islamic heritage and I hated what Ataturk did to them by wiping away their language and Islamic roots.

Well done to Erdogan.

Main reason why a person like Erdogan who you love so much could come to power is because of the principles that were laid out by Ataturk.

It really makes my blood boil when I see people who talk without really understanding my country talk all this nonsense about Ataturk.

I am sorry to break it to you but Turkey will not become an Islamist state, that is just not going to happen.

 

[topspin]

Main reason why a person like Erdogan who you love so much could come to power is because of the principles that were laid out by Ataturk.

It really makes my blood boil when I see people who talk without really understanding my country talk all this nonsense about Ataturk.

I am sorry to break it to you but Turkey will not become an Islamist state, that is just not going to happen.

Couldn't agree more.

 

[Napa]

Turkey has been on verge of economic collapse in recent years. All the gains made have been offset by over capitalism. Teksim Sq rebellion could've been catastrophic for turkey all due to Erdogan's strange juxtaposition.

Turkey did well economically under Erdogan towards the beginning, but the past few years it has steadily deteriorated as can be seen from the lira losing about 80% of its value vs. the US dollar over the last 10 years.



Heck, the lira has even lost value against the Pakistani Rupee!

 

[sweep_shot]

May God preserve Erdogan and allow him to handle his enemies.

Enemies have tried to take him down and they failed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Turkish_coup_d'état_attempt.

All the best to this great leader.

 

[TurkishCricketFan]

May God preserve Erdogan and allow him to handle his enemies.

Enemies have tried to take him down and they failed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Turkish_coup_d'état_attempt.

All the best to this great leader.

How much do you know of this event? How much do you know of the movement who tried to overthrow Erdogans government? Do you know how they became a state within a state?

 

[TurkishCricketFan]

Do you think Turkey is still a good role model for other Muslim countries to follow? Alot of Pakistanis always looked to Turkey as a country that they would like to emulate. Turkey seemed like a country with a strong Muslim identity, but it had a separation of mosque and state. Add that economically its one of the stronger Muslim countries, people in Pakistan have idealized the "Turkish Model".

we have to ask ourselves: Why is Turkey a role model for the muslims who view it to be so?

If the answer is, because Turkey has always been a predominantly muslim country who was able to adapt to the times, which had relative freedom, a loose class system with ties to the west and east, that is slowly eroding.

It seems to me that all the rest of the muslim world is looking up to Turkey but at the same time trying to pull Turkey back to the medieval stuff.

Erdogan is trying to keep his power. That is his game, he is no different to any other politician who exploits religion to solidify his power. (Whoever claps Erdogan should also clap Modi)

Anyway, Ayasofya (as we call it) to me can be a mosque and that is for the Turkish people to decide. However to use it as a political tool to attack Ataturk is where the problem lies to me and millions of other Turkish people.

 

[OldWarHorse]

Main reason why a person like Erdogan who you love so much could come to power is because of the principles that were laid out by Ataturk.

It really makes my blood boil when I see people who talk without really understanding my country talk all this nonsense about Ataturk.

I am sorry to break it to you but Turkey will not become an Islamist state, that is just not going to happen.

What is the general public reaction to these events ?

 

[TurkishCricketFan]

What is the general public reaction to these events ?

divided right in the middle as always

 

[sweep_shot]

How much do you know of this event? How much do you know of the movement who tried to overthrow Erdogans government? Do you know how they became a state within a state?

I know about Kemalist/Gulen movement. It is basically people who subscribe to Ataturk's ideologies.

 

[TurkishCricketFan]

I know about Kemalist/Gulen movement. It is basically people who subscribe to Ataturk's ideologies.

Kemalist / Gulen movement?

what are you on about ?
you dont know jack. do some research first.

Kemalist and Gulenist have nothing in common. nothing

 

[sweep_shot]

Kemalist / Gulen movement?

what are you on about ?
you dont know jack. do some research first.

Kemalist and Gulenist have nothing in common. nothing

Are you a Muslim?

Ataturk stopped the Arabic adhan and started Turkish adhan (I don't know what that even is). How can you support such a man?

If any leader changes adhan in my home country (Bangladesh), he/she can be in very big trouble.

 

[TurkishCricketFan]

Are you a Muslim?

Ataturk stopped the Arabic adhan and started Turkish adhan (I don't know what that even is). How can you support such a man?

If any leader changes adhan in my home country (Bangladesh), he/she can be in very big trouble.

Do you know that Turkey was invaded by 4 different countries after WW1? England - France - Italy & Greece. Do you know who led the Turkish nation to fight against these countries with almost no external support (except for some money from Indian muslims) against these powers?

It was Ataturk. If there is no Ataturk, there is no Istanbul, it would be Constantinople. Today we would be talking about Sultan Ahmet (Blue) Mosque being a church.
Ataturk was not a devout muslim but he was a muslim, he did attend Friday prayers and his sins are for Allah to judge not you!

Turkish ezan was so that the people understood what was said instead of blindly following some Imams who exploited our religion. I dont think that Allah only speaks arabic either.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Are you a Muslim?

Ataturk stopped the Arabic adhan and started Turkish adhan (I don't know what that even is). How can you support such a man?

If any leader changes adhan in my home country (Bangladesh), he/she can be in very big trouble.

Looks like ataturk wanted to inject the evil of multiculturalism into Islam. Good that modern day Turks have rejected him.

 

[Khan12]

Great News. A lot of people are crying.

 

[TurkishCricketFan]

another who talks without knowing jack.
Go have your fundamentalist fantasies about Turkey, if that keeps you happy. Turkish nation including most of Erdogan supporters love & respect Ataturk.

We are a warring nation / we respect our leaders who won wars on the battlefield.

 

[Slog]

This is very irony filled and laughable.

Most Muslims always point to turkey as being an example for rest of the Muslim world but at the same time want turkey to enact policies which would bring it down to their level.

You do know it’s doesn’t work like that.

Besides in my experience in Turkey the great thing is that if you wanted to be devout Muslim you will have no issues and no discouragement to stop you from doing so. But at the same time if you don’t want to be devout and be the ones who have belief and go Friday prayers etc then you can be that too. There’s no compulsion to act a certain way to be considered Muslim and that’s literally what the Quran days: “Let there be no compulsion in religion”

 

[Slog]

I don’t think people here understand why there is so much love and respect for Mustafa Kemal. Even the staunch conservatives there have respect for him if not outright love.

What forms modern Turkey would likely have been another Palestine chopped up into different pieces by the Allied Powers and the last powerless and defeated Ottoman Ruler was on board with the treaty which would have done so till Mustafa Kemal fought the war and drove out the Different foreign powers to establish the modern Turkish state

 

[finalfantasy7]

Jews were and are the original inhabitants of Israel and Jerusalem, long before Islam even came into being. Israel exists and it will continue to exist.

The hypocrisy of people like you is astonishing. If muslims conquer something, or muslims are in majority, their writ should run. But when muslims lose power or are in minority then also the majority and victors should toe the muslim line. This hypocrisy wont last long. Slowly the people are realising this. Muslims are free to do whatever they want in the countries they are in majority, but others will do as they please in the countries they are in majority. This hypocrisy will be answered in the same vein.

you are really not the brightest - before israel that same land was called Canaan - the native were pagan tribes - The Bible says the last Canaanites to rule the city were the Jebusites.,

the jews were allowed entry into jerusulem.

 

[CricketCartoons]

you are really not the brightest - before israel that same land was called Canaan - the native were pagan tribes - The Bible says the last Canaanites to rule the city were the Jebusites.,

the jews were allowed entry into jerusulem.

disagree. He is the brightest indian poster here.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I am glad that Turkey has taken this decision.

I have always loved Turkey for its Islamic heritage and I hated what Ataturk did to them by wiping away their language and Islamic roots.

Well done to Erdogan.

What was the Turkish language? I am always slightly confused by the western script which they use, seems inauthentic for some reason. I assume they had their own written language before switching at some point in history.

 

[JaDed]

Except Greece and Modern Muslims that look towards Turkey as bastion of hope don't think anyone else will have an issue with this decision, as an Indian this is perfect and covered by entire Western Media incl some joke of headlines from CNN -
Turkey's Erdogan orders the conversion of Hagia Sophia back into a mosque lol
https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/10/europe/hagia-sophia-mosque-turkey-intl/index.html


The hypocrisy of Erdogan is there to utilize, also gives us a slight breathing space from all the Turkish criticism which wouldn't amount to much anymore.

Now only if we could throw away our right wing nutcases, one can only dream

 

[JaDed]

I am not sure whether this correct or not. But the distinction hinted here between religion as faith and religion as identity, reminds me of a couplet from that wonderful poet of satire, Akbar Allahabadi (1846-1921), who noted sarcastically:

Nai tahzib men diqqat ziyada to nahin hoti
Mazahib rahte hain qaaim faqat imaan jaata hai

(Not so troubling are these modern times / religions remain intact, only faith is lost).

Below is my personal opinion: (not an attack).

Pakistani Muslims are not as faith oriented as current Indian Muslims similarly I found the South Indian Hindus to be more faith oriented than North Indian ones.

The similarity I found was among North Indian Hindus and Pakistani Muslims, religion is intermingled with nationalism .

 

[CricketCartoons]

Below is my personal opinion: (not an attack).

Pakistani Muslims are not as faith oriented as current Indian Muslims similarly I found the South Indian Hindus to be more faith oriented than North Indian ones.

The similarity I found was among North Indian Hindus and Pakistani Muslims, religion is intermingled with nationalism .

You need all kind for the survival and sustainment of a religion. The political ones, the hard core orthodox ones, the spiritual ones, the moderate ones. Too much of spiritual weakens the religion, and the moderate should defend the orthodox ones from outside criticism, they should not try to moderate down the religion

 

[Abdullah719]

Hagia Sophia: World Council of Churches appeals to Turkey on mosque decision

The World Council of Churches has called on Turkey's President Recep Tayyip Erdogan to reverse his decision to turn the celebrated Hagia Sophia museum back into a mosque.

In a letter to Mr Erdogan, the Council, which counts 350 churches as members, said the move would sow division.

The Unesco World Heritage site in Istanbul has been a museum since 1934.

The president announced his decision on Friday following a court ruling which annulled its museum status.

The Hagia Sophia was built 1,500 years ago as an Orthodox Christian cathedral, but was converted into a mosque after the Ottoman conquest in 1453.

It was converted to a museum on the orders of Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, the founding father of modern, secular Turkey.

Since then religious services have been banned at the site, but devout Muslims have long campaigned for worship to be allowed.

What does the letter say?

The Geneva-based World Council of Churches says it represents more than 500 million Christians.

The letter is from Ioan Sauca, interim general secretary, who says the Council feels "grief and dismay".

"By deciding to convert the Hagia Sophia back to a mosque you have reversed that positive sign of Turkey's openness and changed it to a sign of exclusion and division."

He writes that the decision "will inevitably create uncertainties, suspicions and mistrust, undermining all our efforts to bring people of different faiths together at the table of dialogue and co-operation".

"In the interests of promoting mutual understanding, respect, dialogue and co-operation, and avoiding cultivating old animosities and divisions, we urgently appeal to you to reconsider and reverse your decision," the letter continues.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53375739

 

[cricketjoshila]

First of all, it makes me laugh when you (a Hindu) tries to defend Jews. Judaism is against idol worship too. Judaism and Islam have lots of similarities theologically. We have a lot of common prophets (peace be upon them all).

Second of all, you may not understand the dynamics in that part of the world because you are not a Muslim, Christian, or Jew. You have no connection with that place like folks from Abrahamic religions have. It is not just a political conflict but also a theological conflict.

Thirdly, I posted you a link. Please check. Many mosques were converted into churches. It was quite common for a conquering army to change a religious structure. Don't let your hatred make you ignore facts.

Jews not being idol worshippers has nothing to do here. Its about they having the right over israel and Jerusalem and doing what they want there as Muslims are doing in Hagia Sofia.

Jews do not consider themselves to be part of any Islamic narrative.

Its a political conflict and thats how it will be solved. The one reigning over that place will run his writ. Others will have to accept it.

If conquering Army A has the right to change something, so does conquering army B and next C.

So if Muslims converted a church or a temple to mosque when they were in power, the other side too has the right to do so. And that applies to every side.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Blah blah.

At the end of the day, God determines the victors. If God decides to give Muslims victory anywhere, nobody has the power to stop it.

Palestine will be liberated one day by the will of God.

God right now has given Israel to jews. Accept it and move on.

 

[cricketjoshila]

you are really not the brightest - before israel that same land was called Canaan - the native were pagan tribes - The Bible says the last Canaanites to rule the city were the Jebusites.,

the jews were allowed entry into jerusulem.

Have the canaanites raised a claim to the place? The jews have.


Remember Kabaa was used by pre islamic arabs to worship their idols. These idols were broken and Kabaa was taken over.


The holiest place of the jews, right now has a mosque standing over it. Dont they have the right to build their temple there? If not why?

 

[from_da_lost_dim3nsion]

How is this different than building ram mandir where babri mosque stood ?

 

[El Generico]

[MENTION=76058]cricketjoshila[/MENTION] Don’t you keep parroting “Our country, Our rules” when someone talks about India? Then why do you care so much about what Turkey and other countries are doing? Follow your Own standard of “their country, their rules.“

 

[IAJ]

Jews were and are the original inhabitants of Israel and Jerusalem, long before Islam even came into being. Israel exists and it will continue to exist.

The hypocrisy of people like you is astonishing. If muslims conquer something, or muslims are in majority, their writ should run. But when muslims lose power or are in minority then also the majority and victors should toe the muslim line. This hypocrisy wont last long. Slowly the people are realising this. Muslims are free to do whatever they want in the countries they are in majority, but others will do as they please in the countries they are in majority. This hypocrisy will be answered in the same vein.

You obviously don’t know much about Islam and the history of muslims. Islam is the last link in the chain of divine religion revealed to all the Prophets and messangers, beginning with the first human ever Adam and ending with Muhammad - Peace and blessing be upon them all. All the Prophets were muslims. Muslims history goes back to the first human so don’t even start this discussion.

 

[El Generico]

A bit off topic but what’s with some Indians claiming this structure was a temple? Saw some “detailed” twitter post by Indians trying to prove that Hagia Sophia used be a temple before it was a church lol. Why do some Indians think everything in the world used to be a temple?

 

[Buffet]

Main reason why a person like Erdogan who you love so much could come to power is because of the principles that were laid out by Ataturk.

It really makes my blood boil when I see people who talk without really understanding my country talk all this nonsense about Ataturk.

I am sorry to break it to you but Turkey will not become an Islamist state, that is just not going to happen.

It will be a sad outcome if It becomes a islamic state. I have good memories of visting Turkey.

 

[El Generico]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Indians have no right to express outrage over Turkey's decision to convert <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/HagiaSophia?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#HagiaSophia</a> in a mosque. When our government did the same with <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/BabriMasjid?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#BabriMasjid</a>, we automatically surrendered the right to comment on other nation's internal affairs. <a href="https://t.co/PI4IG7Tbqm">pic.twitter.com/PI4IG7Tbqm</a></p>— Møhit (@incisivewriter) <a href="https://twitter.com/incisivewriter/status/1281862383565017088?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">July 11, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>


Pretty interesting point. If you were celebrating the Mandir decision then why be outraged here?

 

[Buffet]

Jews not being idol worshippers has nothing to do here. Its about they having the right over israel and Jerusalem and doing what they want there as Muslims are doing in Hagia Sofia.

Jews do not consider themselves to be part of any Islamic narrative.

Its a political conflict and thats how it will be solved. The one reigning over that place will run his writ. Others will have to accept it.

If conquering Army A has the right to change something, so does conquering army B and next C.

So if Muslims converted a church or a temple to mosque when they were in power, the other side too has the right to do so. And that applies to every side.

Right to be at gutter level is not a good thing. It was not a good thing 1000 years ago and it's not a good thing right now. Now what constitutes a gutter level may vary from person to person, but simple test is to treat others the way you want to be treated.

 

[Syed1]

[MENTION=76058]cricketjoshila[/MENTION] Don’t you keep parroting “Our country, Our rules” when someone talks about India? Then why do you care so much about what Turkey and other countries are doing? Follow your Own standard of “their country, their rules.“

Checkmate