Hagia Sophia reopened for Muslim worship

[ahmedzee]

Don't think the Central board's education books mention anyone as "barbaric" .

Below is for CISE and I studied Matric it had similar details.

https://books.google.com/books?id=PkBjDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA28&lpg=PA28&dq=ghori+in+indian+history+books&source=bl&ots=1-fURazl7S&sig=ACfU3U1kQc8Yw2Yrlrga9MkyqEuhXauvog&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjr-oXM0MrqAhUCnKwKHfEkAmQQ6AEwCXoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=ghori%20in%20indian%20history%20books&f=false


Maybe you need to make sure your knowledge is just not posters and bollywood as well.

Yes, the books calling him plunderer and what not to keep hindu readers and their parents happy that he is the villain of the story, and then also praise him a little. lol.

Fact remains, Gauri and others after him were merciful, raised the standard of living and people cherished under him (both hindus and Muslims). If he was the so called plunderer and barbarian you guys are referring to then it is simple, you won't be alive today, your parents won't be alive, you ancestors would never have been born. Enjoy all the propaganda you guys read.

 

[JaDed]

Yes, the books calling him plunderer and what not to keep hindu readers and their parents happy that he is the villain of the story, and then also praise him a little. lol.

Fact remains, Gauri and others after him were merciful, raised the standard of living and people cherished under him (both hindus and Muslims). If he was the so called plunderer and barbarian you guys are referring to then it is simple, you won't be alive today, your parents won't be alive, you ancestors would never have been born. Enjoy all the propaganda you guys read.

Yes the Indian textbooks should say the one who brought enlightenment to India, 17 times was him .

 

[cricketjoshila]

If Mughals wanted to, they could've wiped your kind out. But, they didn't do that. If they were really barbaric invaders, they probably would've done that. Think about it.

Lol.Wiped my kind. Even today non muslims are majority in subcontinent. No mughal or their chamchas had the power to wipe them out.

Barbaric invaders are barbaric invaders,about time their signs are removed, like BLM is removing white imperialists and slavers.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Yes, the books calling him plunderer and what not to keep hindu readers and their parents happy that he is the villain of the story, and then also praise him a little. lol.

Fact remains, Gauri and others after him were merciful, raised the standard of living and people cherished under him (both hindus and Muslims). If he was the so called plunderer and barbarian you guys are referring to then it is simple, you won't be alive today, your parents won't be alive, you ancestors would never have been born. Enjoy all the propaganda you guys read.

Ghauri or his ilk didnt have the power to kill few 100 millions. The numbers were simply to big. My ancestors didnt roll over they struggled to keep their faith.

These plunderers and looters who invaded India should have their signs removed from this country.

About time we return to our roots. I am sure those supporting return of turkey to its islamic roots will have no problems.

 

[CricketCartoons]

If Mughals wanted to, they could've wiped your kind out. But, they didn't do that. If they were really barbaric invaders, they probably would've done that. Think about it.

Mughals were fine with the exception of aurangzeb (loved by islamists). Also there is no sense in killing everyone because you need farmers to feed your horses and soldiers, weavers for clothes, masons for construction and generally people alive to pay taxes. Mughals did have a barbaric culture though, the inheritance though hereditary, was decided by who could kill or imprison their fathers and brothers.

 

[Slog]

There is a 150 year old Church in Brampton, Ontario, Canada, that was bought recently (10 years ago) by Muslims (including the land). They expanded it into the parking lot and made it a mosque. Now if we go by the logic of some joshila folks here, that is still wrong because it was a church before, irrespective of purchases.

Brother the difference (and it is the most important difference which changes everything) is that Muslim group have bought the land only under the status quo government .
If the Muslims were a conquering force and then this happened then obv it would be different.

I’m not sure if I explained it well but that’s a huge difference.

I’m not defending Joshila here and he is hardly someone who’s motivations are moral and for pure justice here so don’t lump me there.

 

[Slog]

Poor Joshila bhai. He hates Mughals so much and calls them invaders and foreigners (even 5th generation ones) but forever the most inconic structure India is associated with will remain the Muslim Mughal Taj Mahal. Man it must really hurt.

 

[irfan]

Ghauri or his ilk didnt have the power to kill few 100 millions. The numbers were simply to big. My ancestors didnt roll over they struggled to keep their faith.

These plunderers and looters who invaded India should have their signs removed from this country.

About time we return to our roots. I am sure those supporting return of turkey to its islamic roots will have no problems.

I agree and the biggest sign is the Taj Mahal, don't you agree that it should be destroyed and a hindu temple put in its place?

Also all sitars in India should be destroyed, after all it was invented by Amir Khusro a descendant of Turkic Uzbek invaders.

 

[cricketjoshila]

I agree and the biggest sign is the Taj Mahal, don't you agree that it should be destroyed and a hindu temple put in its place?

Also all sitars in India should be destroyed, after all it was invented by Amir Khusro a descendant of Turkic Uzbek invaders.

Have you heard of the veena?

Taj mahal constructed in India, by funds generated in India, by Indian workers mostly why break it?. May be we should dig around Taj mahal and see what was there previously and then simply return it to its original purpose.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Although I hate the Taj Mahal for its ugliness ( had the misfortune of visiting it when some american friends visited and wanted me to show them around ), it must be allowed to remain as it presents the veneer of india's world famous secularism to show the world. Also suits our philosophy of mooh mein Ram Ram, baghal mein churi.

 

[SpiritOf1903]

Although I hate the Taj Mahal for its ugliness ( had the misfortune of visiting it when some american friends visited and wanted me to show them around ), it must be allowed to remain as it presents the veneer of india's world famous secularism to show the world. Also suits our philosophy of mooh mein Ram Ram, baghal mein churi.

That's intriguing ..arguably India's most beautiful structure ..

 

[CricketCartoons]

That's intriguing ..arguably India's most beautiful structure ..

That is subjective ( and fair enough) but you have to see all indian structures before you can make this subjective judgement.

When I saw it, it looked much smaller than I had imagined it from pictures. The structure was mostly bare, the marble dull and the interiors damp. The one thing in its favour was the symmetry. You may find it beautiful if you think less is more and beauty lies in simplicity, but I prefer grand and exquisite architecture to be impressed.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Muhammad of Ghor and other muslim invaders killed millions in India, looted the country, destroyed places of worship.

I am alive and following the religion of my ancestors because they refused to submit and struggled on. Not because of the benevolence of some invader.

I am always intrigued by this claim from certain areas of India. What was it about your particular ancestors that gave them the steadfastness to resist the invaders where others from different parts of India "submitted"?

If I'm not wrong you are from Bengal yes? Well half of Bengal would appear to have submitted, so what was the differentiating factor between them and your noble ancestors?

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

Would you consider aurangzeb an invader even though hes a 5th generation subcontinent born and bread?

Are all muslims in india invaders to you?

Yes to Hindu Nationalist all Muslims Kings were foreign invaders as they did not assimilate into the local culture. So it doesn't matter how many generations they lived in subcontinent. And to Hindu Nationalist, Afghanistan is part of ancient Akhand Bharat, so the "foreign" Muslim Kings were for the most part even in the first generation born in "Akhand Bharat". But they are still foreign invaders.

For these clowns even Muslim Rajputs are foreign invaders. Thats why they want to rename Ahmadabad, a city built from scratch by a Muslim Rajput King, to Karnavati.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

More than 85 percent are non muslims. Muslims are free to practice their religion. But that doesn't mean the rest of the people have to keep up with the signs of tyrannical invaders.

Religion of islam is one thing.

Invaders different.

I understand Hindu Nationalist want stuff renamed, but my question was, is it possible? As in with the Muslim and Liberal Hindu vote, will they will be able to do it? From my understanding Congress is not in favor of any renaming.

 

[pillionrider]

More than 85 percent are non muslims. Muslims are free to practice their religion. But that doesn't mean the rest of the people have to keep up with the signs of tyrannical invaders.

Do you really believe that if the Mughals or earlier Muslim rulers were as fanatical about their religion, India would still be majority Hindu today. Look at Islamic countries or even Latin America where Christianity was aggressively spread.

There were nasty Muslim rulers, agreed. But maybe you need to consider how they didn't get around to converting the majority of us. It was possibly due to the politics, agreements and vastness of the country. Even thinking of it in this way would be better than blanketing and pretending that ancestors of today's non-Muslims were tough guys

 

[Slog]

Yes to Hindu Nationalist all Muslims Kings were foreign invaders as they did not assimilate into the local culture. So it doesn't matter how many generations they lived in subcontinent. And to Hindu Nationalist, Afghanistan is part of ancient Akhand Bharat, so the "foreign" Muslim Kings were for the most part even in the first generation born in "Akhand Bharat". But they are still foreign invaders.

For these clowns even Muslim Rajputs are foreign invaders. Thats why they want to rename Ahmadabad, a city built from scratch by a Muslim Rajput King, to Karnavati.

This actually is pretty funny. Never thought about it haha.

Afghanistan is park of Akhand Bharat as per Hindutvas but Afghani conquerors are foreigners as per same people. A few months ago I was talking to a modi supporter and he said he also considers Indonesia, Cambodia and some others as Akhand Bharat. He said it so casually and moved on. I was just gobsmacked to even prove further

 

[MenInG]

Mosaics in Istanbul's iconic Hagia Sophia will be covered by curtains or lasers during the Muslim prayers, the spokesman for Turkey's governing Justice and Development Party (AK Party) has said.

The Christian icons would be uncovered and be open to all visitors at other times, and admission would be free of charge, the AK Party's Omer Celik said on Monday, without explaining further.

A Turkish court last week ruled that the conversion of the sixth-century Byzantine site into a museum in 1934 was unlawful.

President Recep Tayyip Erdogan declared the building a mosque and said the first prayers would be held there within two weeks.

The move drew international criticism and concern, including from Greece, the United States and Russia, as well as UNESCO, which is now reviewing the structure's World Heritage Site status.

Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu said Ankara was surprised by UNESCO's reaction and would let it know of further steps to be taken regarding Hagia Sophia, which was a Byzantine church for nine centuries before the Ottomans converted it to a mosque.

Turkey is sensitive about protecting its historical character, he said. "We have to protect our ancestors' heritage. The function can be this way or that way - it does not matter," Cavusoglu told state broadcaster, TRT Haber.

On Monday, the leader of Italy's far-right League party, Matteo Salvini, led a demonstration outside the Turkish consulate in Milan to protest against the decision.

"I would stop every kind of financial aid to the Turkish regime, and I would terminate once and for all any hypothesis of Turkey entering the European Union because we have given more than 10 billion euros to a regime that transforms churches into mosques and I think they have gone over the limit," he said.

Salvini's protest came a day after Pope Francis said he was "very saddened" by Turkey's decision.

In response to the pope's remarks, Celik told a news conference in Ankara that the biggest disrespect to Hagia Sophia in history had been committed by the papacy.

He said Orthodox Christians and Hagia Sophia had suffered for years during a "Latin invasion" led by the papacy in the 13th century, when Crusaders pillaged the cathedral.

Turkish foreign ministry spokesman Hami Aksoy on Monday said Hagia Sophia is an internal matter and no country can interfere in Turkey's sovereign matters.

"Hagia Sophia will continue to embrace everyone with its new status, preserving the common cultural heritage of humanity," he said, according to an Anadolu Agency report.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020...-christian-icons-prayers-200714080942121.html

 

[TurkishCricketFan]

Agreed and it seems he's going to take Turkey's economy a ride down the drain as well.

Cause and effect order is Economy going down the drain / losing popular support - > Stir up some religious sentiments to divert attention
He has been in power for 18 years, and multiple times he made contradictory statements regarding this very topic, and now he is taking this decision. His supporters do not ask why now?

He wants this to be the main news as much as possible.

 

[TurkishCricketFan]

It is quite shameful but expected under the war criminal and self-appointed Khalifa Erdogan.

Turkey seems to be on a mission to whitewashing its Byzantine history.

War Criminal? what are you referring to?
Ottomans & Turkey had more than 500 years to whitewash Byzantine history. And to a certain extent it was done. However, Erdogan can not do anything that was not done by Fatih Sultan Mehmet and the following Sultans.

 

[Firebat]

Greece says Turkey is being 'petty' over Hagia Sophia

ATHENS (Reuters) - Greece on Tuesday described Turkey’s decision to convert the Hagia Sophia in Istanbul to a mosque as “unnecessary and petty” and called for tougher European Union action over Ankara’s gas exploration activities in the Mediterranean.

Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan’s move to switch the status of Hagia Sophia to a mosque has struck a raw nerve with many Greeks, who revere the sixth century building as a focal point of their Orthodox Christian faith.

Greece, whose relations with Turkey are fraught with historical tensions, says the matter is not a bilateral dispute.

“With this backward action, Turkey is opting to sever links with western world and its values,” Greek Prime Minister Kyriakos Mitsotakis said.

“Confronted with this unnecessary, petty initiative from Turkey, Greece is considering its response at all levels,” Mitsotakis said, in a reference to Hagia Sophia.

A Turkish court ruled last week that Hagia Sophia’s conversion to a museum in 1934 was unlawful. Declaring the building a mosque, Erdogan said prayers would be held there within two weeks, in a move that drew international criticism.

Relations between Greece and Turkey are often tense over Cyprus, divided between its Greek and Turkish Cypriot populations after an abortive Greek-inspired coup which triggered a Turkish invasion in 1974.

Moves by the island’s Greek Cypriot-led government to explore for offshore natural gas have been countered by Turkish attempts at gas exploration in the same areas.

“Europe should once and for all draft a specific list of actions, and sanctions against a country which seeks to be a regional troublemaker, and which is evolving into a threat to the stability of the whole south-east Mediterranean region,” Mitsotakis said.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...s-being-petty-over-hagia-sophia-idUSKCN24F1JZ

 

[topspin]

Cause and effect order is Economy going down the drain / losing popular support - > Stir up some religious sentiments to divert attention
He has been in power for 18 years, and multiple times he made contradictory statements regarding this very topic, and now he is taking this decision. His supporters do not ask why now?

He wants this to be the main news as much as possible.

Unfortunately history repeating itself in the Islamic world. Another "Islamic minded" leader who wants to use religion as a tool to empower himself.

 

[cricketjoshila]

I understand Hindu Nationalist want stuff renamed, but my question was, is it possible? As in with the Muslim and Liberal Hindu vote, will they will be able to do it? From my understanding Congress is not in favor of any renaming.

What is this liberal hindu vote?

Muslims are free to practice their religion. No one is interfering there. Will they object to the rest 85 per cent doing away with the signs of invaders and oppressors?

 

[KingKhanWC]

Hindus christians jews buddhists whoever wants to take back what waa historically theirs in a country they have majority, they will slowly start taking it.

Spain has removed much of its islamic history.

These days people are removing the history of slave owners and despots and tyrants.

Indians may decide to remove the signs of muslim invaders. As someone said that Turkey is rightfully moving to its islamic roots and removing Ataturks secular values, india too should move towards its cultural roots.

Muslims shouldn't have a problem. They can choose to do whatever they want in their country. Esp pakistanis who seem to be up in arms on every muslim issue anywhere.

WHy dont you start with the Taj Mahal. THE building which most people recognise as India.

It must hurt so bad, the one building which represents India worldwide and the greatest building in India was built by a Muslim.

 

[BreadPakoda]

About time we return to our roots. I am sure those supporting return of turkey to its islamic roots will have no problems.

What would be the difference between India and the fanatical extremist countries if we start replicating what they are doing?

 

[pillionrider]

What is this liberal hindu vote?

Liberal has become a bad word in India.

But I think what he means is - Since Modi's BJP won just over 37% of the vote share, there must be a significant number of people in the rest of the roughly 63% vote who don't care about him, or even dislike him. A number of them could be against any change in signs.

Personally, I don't think we should have anything named in honour of an invader.

But what is an invader. Is it someone who just came, laid waste to the place and left. Or do his descendants who were born here also count. And if they were cruel, was cruelty restricted to Muslims. Were there no cruel Hindu kings ever whose names can be traced down to modern things in India. Serious question - is there anything named in India after an invader.

A good start would be to stop fawning over Saif Khan's son who shares a name with someone who not only destroyed Delhi but also brutalized other Muslim kings all across the North. Won't be surprised if most of the kid's fans are Modi fans. And if you want to go further, I read one of Timur's sons and kings was named Shah Rukh though I don't think he ruled over any Indian region

 

[cricketjoshila]

What would be the difference between India and the fanatical extremist countries if we start replicating what they are doing?

If BLM protests can target and remove statues of iconic white people, why the same can happen in India?

 

[BreadPakoda]

If BLM protests can target and remove statues of iconic white people, why the same can happen in India?

I take your point. Who decides which statues to remove and which ones to keep?

 

[shaykh]

I’m no fan of Erdogan but if the above is true ...ie curtains will only be used during prayers then there really isn’t a problem ...the laser thing not so sure about ...dunno if it will damage the mosaics...

Why it has become a discussion about Indian temples or mosques or landmarks I don’t know...

Again the Hagia Sophia hasn’t been Christian for over 500 years ...it’s been a mosque for the majority of the last 500 years and has been a museum for 85 years...

Converting it back into a mosque is hardly a major issue....mountains and molehills come to mind ...

Destroying minority religious structures and replacing them with majority religious structures is hardly the same as this...

 

[CricketCartoons]

I take your point. Who decides which statues to remove and which ones to keep?

The ruling majority.

 

[sweep_shot]

If BLM protests can target and remove statues of iconic white people, why the same can happen in India?

There's no Islamic holy site that exists in India anyway. India is no Jerusalem, Mecca, or Medina.

 

[PetroDollars]

For those naive people still defending extremists like Erdogan, who has taken Turkey and its economy to the dumps while completely radicalising its people, think that this case has nothing to do with a war against non-muslims.

 

[Buffet]

If BLM protests can target and remove statues of iconic white people, why the same can happen in India?

Taking extremist behavior in other parts of world to justify extremist behaviour is a slippery slope.

Most of the protesters were peaceful and not involved in statue nonsense. Yes, there are some idiots who took part in or supported taking down statues during protests, but they are in minority.

 

[Buffet]

If BLM protests can target and remove statues of iconic white people, why the same can happen in India?

Anyway, how many invaders statues, who came from outside, exists in India?

 

[OldWarHorse]

Taking extremist behavior in other parts of world to justify extremist behaviour is a slippery slope.

Most of the protesters were peaceful and not involved in statue nonsense. Yes, there are some idiots who took part in or supported taking down statues during protests, but they are in minority.

Very true.
If this process is adopted what's going to stop people from Odisha to start destroying Ashokan rock edicts and stupas. Or some hyper nationalist Bengalis to revolt against the Maratha symbols across the country. Its an extremely slippery slope especially in such a pluralistic country like ours.

 

[Slog]

Anyway, how many invaders statues, who came from outside, exists in India?

Islam doesn’t believe in statues anyway so the three ‘invaders’ he doesn’t like do not have statues to begin with.

 

[JaDed]

If BLM protests can target and remove statues of iconic white people, why the same can happen in India?

If? Didn't you say every country has its own rules now you want similar situation as that exist in States or UK?

 

[Buffet]

If? Didn't you say every country has its own rules now you want similar situation as that exist in States or UK?

It wasn't a rule to take down status by mobs in US/UK. Some idiots doing it doesn't mean that US/UK support such actitivies.

You can always pick out extremist behaviour like playing soccer with heads in Afghanistan, but copying that will a poor idea. If all of us started copying extreme ideas becasue it's done somehwere else then world will become a horrible place.

 

[Buffet]

Islam doesn’t believe in statues anyway so the three ‘invaders’ he doesn’t like do not have statues to begin with.

It was more of rhetorical question. We can replace status with monuments or something else.

Anyway, world shouldn't try to copy poor bahavior done in one part to justify similar behavior.

On another note, fighting over boundary of nation and hating others is absurd. Boudaries of countries will keep changing. World looks different than what it looked 100 years back and it will surely look different after 100 years. All we need to make sure that the government in specific boudary is working to make citizen's life better. I often see people losing sense of rationality when it comes to religion or patriotism. That makes it so easy to exploit. I try to avoid religion related debates, but some time I forget about patritism can trigger poor reaction when discussing topics. Not talking about this thread, just a general observation.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

What is this liberal hindu vote?

Muslims are free to practice their religion. No one is interfering there. Will they object to the rest 85 per cent doing away with the signs of invaders and oppressors?

As in people who vote for Congress, or other liberal parties (the only parties i know are Congress & BJP).

Is Congress not liberal? From my understanding Congress does not consider Mughals, and other Muslim rulers as invaders and they dont consider the majority of them to be oppressors.

So with 15% Muslim vote and the Congress/and other liberal parties, wont it be hard to have a consensus on renaming the signs of those Kings.


And why cant you dislike the Mughals and other Muslim rules, without having to consider them as foreign invaders.

I have never heard people in England say that every King after the William the Conqueror was a foreign invader. For like 400 years after William the Conqueror the Kings had a French origin. However the people in England view them as English Kings, even though they spoke French for centuries, before adopting English. Same way how Mughals spoke Persian before adopting Urdu.

So why not just say we dislike the Indian Muslims Kings, for whatever reason you may have?

 

[KB]

I always believe this stems from the Turkish Independence War where the muslim Indians were the only nation which supported our cause.

I have often wondered about the strong emotions displayed by Indian Muslims during the Khilafat movement.

No doubt such emotions were shaped by a variety of factors but I think the sense of civilisational decline was central to it. For over a thousand years Islam and power seemed to go hand in glove. In just over a hundred that power was smashed in many places as the imprint of western colonialism was felt. In British India the sense of decline prompted many poems of anguish and nostalgia especially after the trauma of the Rebellion of 1857. The elegiac poems of Hali were particularly influential. The educational movements associated with Deoband and Aligarh in the late nineteenth century in their different ways sought cultural regeneration.

For many Indian Muslims, Turkey represented the last great vestige of Muslim civilisation, a living symbol of Islamic eminence. The point can illustrated by referring to a poem by Shibli Nomani, on the tumult (hungama) of the Balkans. Though written before the War of Independence, against the background of the Tripolitan and Balkan wars, it is a lament for the fate of Turkey and what it meant for the Muslim community more widely.

Each couplet of Shibli’s poem ends with “how long” (kab tak). How long will the Ottoman Empire, which he refers to as a guttering candle (Chiragh-e kashta), last? Morocco has gone, Persia has gone; how long will Turkey - the ‘sick man of Europe’ (mariz-e sakht jan) - last? How long will the sighs of the oppressed be able to withstand the flood of misery coming from the Balkans? In the final couplet he asks if he wants to migrate, there is still Syria, Najd and Kairouan, but for how long?

 

[cricketjoshila]

If? Didn't you say every country has its own rules now you want similar situation as that exist in States or UK?

Yes. And we can make a law in India to not have glorification of invaders by any means.

 

[JaDed]

Yes. And we can make a law in India to not have glorification of invaders by any means.

Invaders not born in India , sure like Babar, anyone that is born in undivided India is Indian.

 

[MenInG]

ANKARA

Converting the Hagia Sophia into a mosque is a matter of sovereignty, Turkey's president told reporters on Friday.

Turkey does not see international reactions on the reopening of the Istanbul landmark to Muslim worship as binding, Recep Tayyip Erdogan stressed.

The first prayers will be held on July 24 for 1,000-1,500 worshipers at the same time, Erdogan added.

Azerbaijan-Armenia conflict

"Turkey will never leave Azerbaijan alone," Erdogan said, following recent cross-border artillery fire by Armenia attack.

"[Upper Karabakh] is under occupation. The Minsk trio has left the issue on the table for 25-30 years," he added.

OSCE Minsk Group -- co-chaired by France, Russia and the US -- was formed to find a peaceful solution to the conflict, but has yet to get any results.

Last Sunday, the Armenian army attempted to attack Azerbaijani positions with artillery fire towards the northwestern Tovuz border district, withdrawing after suffering losses following retaliation from the Azerbaijani military.

Twelve Azerbaijani soldiers -- including a major general and a colonel -- were martyred in the clashes that injured four others.

Despite international calls for restraint, Armenian troops also opened fire on residential areas in the villages of Agdam and Dondar Kuscu. A 76-year-old Azerbaijani man lost his life in the attacks by Armenia, which Baku has accused of hiding losses.

Azerbaijan has blamed Armenia for the "provocative" actions, with Turkey throwing its weight behind Baku and warning Yerevan that it would not hesitate to stand against any kind of attack on its eastern neighbor.

The Armenian military in 1991 illegally occupied the Upper Karabakh region, an internationally recognized territory of Azerbaijan.

Four UN Security Council and two UN General Assembly resolutions, as well as decisions by many international organizations, refer to this fact and demand the withdrawal of the occupational Armenian forces from Upper Karabakh and seven other occupied regions of Azerbaijan.

Libya conflict

Speaking on the Libyan conflict, Erdogan said Turkey will continue to discharge its responsibility in Libya.

"We will not leave our Libyan brothers alone. Our relationship with Libya covers over a 500-year period," he added.

Since April 2019, Haftar's illegitimate forces have launched attacks on the Libyan capital of Tripoli and other parts of northwestern Libya, resulting in more than 1,000 deaths, including civilian women and children.

However, the Libyan government has recently achieved significant victories, pushing Haftar's forces out of Tripoli and the strategic city of Tarhuna.

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/politics/hagia-sophia-a-matter-of-turkeys-sovereignty-erdogan/1913812

 

[Abdullah719]

Turkey's Erdogan visits Hagia Sophia after reconversion to mosque

Spoiler

Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has paid a surprise visit to Hagia Sophia just days before the first Muslim prayers are due to be held at the Istanbul landmark since it was reconverted to a mosque last week.

In a quick visit billed as an inspection, Erdogan took stock of the conversion work, the president's office said on Sunday, providing pictures showing scaffolding inside the building.

The Diyanet, the country's religious authority, said Christian icons would be curtained off and unlit "through appropriate means during prayer times".

It was unclear whether Erdogan planned to be among some 500 worshippers set to attend Friday prayers.

Turkey's top court paved the way for the conversion in a decision to revoke the edifice's museum status conferred nearly a century ago.

The sixth-century building had been open to all visitors, regardless of their faith, since its inauguration as a museum in 1935.

Earlier this week, the Diyanet said the building would continue to be open to all visitors outside the hours given over to prayer.

The UNESCO World Heritage site was built as a cathedral during the Byzantine empire but converted into a mosque after the Ottoman conquest of Constantinople in 1453.

It was designated a museum in a key reform of the post-Ottoman authorities under the modern republic's founder Mustafa Kemal Ataturk.

Erdogan said last year it had been a "very big mistake" to convert the Hagia Sophia into a museum.

The reconversion sparked anger among Christians and tensions between historic foes and uneasy NATO allies Turkey and Greece.

https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/...phia-reconversion-mosque-200719142917508.html

 

[The Viper]

Hagia Sophia mosaics will be covered with curtains during prayers - Turkish presidential spokesman

Mosaics depicting Christian figures in Istanbul’s ancient Hagia Sophia will be covered with curtains during Muslim prayers, Turkish presidential spokesman Ibrahim Kalin said on Sunday, as work to prepare the building for use as a mosque continues.

Authorities had said last week that the mosaics would be concealed with either curtains or lasers when the first prayers are held next Friday.

In a move that sparked sparked international criticism and concern, President Tayyip Erdogan declared Hagia Sophia open to Muslim worship earlier this month following a court ruling that said the building’s conversion to a museum in 1934 was unlawful.

Hagia Sophia dates back to the sixth century and has a history as both a church and a mosque before it was turned into a museum.

In an interview with broadcaster NTV, Kalin said some mosaics of Mary and Gabriel that are positioned in the direction of Qiblah, where Muslims face during prayer, would be covered with curtains.

He said other mosaics of Jesus and other Christian figures did not pose an obstacle for Muslim prayers because they are not located in the direction of Qiblah. But he did not say whether they would remain uncovered at all times.

Outside prayers, Hagia Sophia will be open to all visitors and tourists and all mosaics will be uncovered, authorities have said.

Erdogan visited the mosque earlier on Sunday to inspect the progress in preparing the building.

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-t...ish-presidential-spokesman-idUKKCN24K0OO?il=0

 

[MenInG]

Friday prayers are to be held at Istanbul's iconic Hagia Sophia building for the first time since the celebrated museum was turned back into a mosque.

"Muslims are excited, everyone wants to be at the opening," Istanbul Governor Ali Yerlikaya said on Thursday.

The 1,500-year-old Unesco World Heritage site became a museum in 1934.

But earlier this month, a Turkish court annulled Hagia Sophia's museum status, saying its use as anything other than a mosque was "not possible legally".

Turkey's President Recep Tayyip Erdogan then announced that the world-famous site would be used as a mosque for Friday prayers from 24 July.

Mr Erdogan said the Hagia Sophia would remain open to all Muslims, non-Muslims and visitors
The move was criticised by religious and political leaders worldwide.

Hagia Sophia was built as an Orthodox Christian cathedral and first converted into a mosque after the Ottoman conquest nine centuries later.

What will prayers at the site look like?
In a televised address on Thursday, Governor Yerlikaya urged those attending prayers on Friday to bring "[face] masks, a prayer rug, patience and understanding" as measures to help prevent the spread of Covid-19 would be in place.

He added that healthcare workers would be made available at the site.

Turkey's religious affairs minister, Ali Erbas, said that about 1,000 people would be able to attend prayers at the site at any one time.

He said that "modifications" had been made inside and that a "garden setup" had been prepared, adding that the site would remain open overnight.

A turquoise carpet was laid on the floor to prepare for prayers and Christian relics were reportedly covered up with white drapes or obscured by lighting.

The head of Turkey's Religious Affairs Directorate visited the site on Wednesday as the rug was being laid
Scaffolding was erected inside the dome as builders scrambled to convert the interior of the ancient building.

Among the Christian mosaics expected to be obscured during Muslim prayer was the ninth-Century mosaic of the Virgin Mary and Jesus inside the apse.

The former Byzantine Cathedral is renowned for its large mosaics depicting Jesus and the Virgin Mary
Mr Erdogan is expected to be among the worshippers on Friday.

Why was Erdogan's move controversial?
Islamist groups and devout Muslims in Turkey had long called for the Hagia Sophia to become a mosque again, but secular opposition members opposed the move.

When President Erdogan announced the decision to do so on 10 July, it was met with widespread criticism.

Pope Francis responded by saying that his "thoughts go to Istanbul," adding: "I think of Santa Sophia and I am very pained."

The head of the Eastern Orthodox Church, Patriarch Bartholomew I, warned that the conversion of the building would "disappoint millions of Christians" and fracture two worlds.

The World Council of Churches, which counts 350 churches as members, called for the decision to be reversed, saying it would sow division.

Unesco said it deeply regretted the move, which further enflamed tensions with neighbouring Greece, home to millions of Orthodox followers.

Why tensions have flared between Turkey and Greece
Erdogan: Turkey's pugnacious president
But Mr Erdogan defended the move, stressing that the country had exercised its sovereign right.

"After 86 years, Hagia Sophia will serve as a mosque again, in the way Fatih the conqueror of Istanbul had indicated in his deed," he said.

He added that the building would remain open to all Muslims, non-Muslims and foreign visitors.

What's the history?
The iconic, domed building sits in Istanbul's Fatih district, on the west bank of the Bosporus, overlooking the Golden Horn harbour.

Hagia Sophia's complex history began almost 1,500 years ago, when Byzantine emperor Justinian built the huge church in the year 537.

In 1453, in a devastating blow to the Byzantines, Ottoman Sultan Mehmed II captured Istanbul (formerly known as Constantinople) and the Hagia Sophia - an Orthodox Christian cathedral - was converted into a mosque for Friday prayers.

Four minarets were added to the exterior, while ornate Christian icons and gold mosaics were covered with panels of Arabic religious calligraphy.

After centuries at the heart of the Muslim Ottoman empire, it was turned into a museum in 1934 in a drive to make Turkey more secular.

It has since become one of Turkey's most popular tourist sites, receiving more than 3.7 million visitors last year.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-53506445

 

[The Viper]

Turkey and Greece in war of words over Hagia Sophia

Turkey and Greece have exchanged harsh words over the conversion of Istanbul's Hagia Sophia into a mosque, a day after Islamic prayers were held at the ancient site for the first time in 90 years.

Relations between NATO allies Ankara and Athens have been uneasy in recent months but tensions have recently increased over Hagia Sophia and energy riches in the eastern Mediterranean.

"We see that the targets of those countries who have made so much noise in recent days are not Hagia Sophia or the eastern Mediterranean," Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan said in a televised speech on Saturday.

"[Their targets] are the presence itself of the Turkish nation and Muslims in this region."

He also condemned hostile statements by the Greek government and Parliament members and Turkish flag-burning in the Greek city of Thessaloniki.

Erdogan joined thousands for the first Islamic prayer on Friday since Hagia Sophia was reconverted into a mosque this month.

Hagia Sophia was previously a museum and most Greeks view it as central to their Orthodox Christian religion: Church bells tolled in mourning across Greece on Friday.

Greek Prime Minister Kyriakos Mitsotakis on Friday said what was happening in Istanbul was "not a show of force, but proof of weakness".

He also called Turkey a "troublemaker", and the conversion of the site an "affront to civilisation of the 21st century".

In a statement on Saturday, the Turkish foreign ministry spokesman said: "Greece showed once again its enmity towards Islam and Turkey with the excuse of reacting to Hagia Sophia Mosque being opened to prayers."

The Greek foreign ministry responded with its own statement, saying: "The international community of the 21st century is stunned to observe the religious and nationalist fanatic ramblings of today's Turkey."

Greece and Turkey disagree on a range of issues from airspace to maritime zones in the eastern Mediterranean and ethnically split Cyprus.

https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/...00725150113704.html?__twitter_impression=true

 

[Abdullah719]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Hagia Sophia opens as mosque for Muslim prayers for the first time in 86 years — in pictures <a href="https://t.co/irTMocutdv">https://t.co/irTMocutdv</a> <a href="https://t.co/jpipU7dR5w">pic.twitter.com/jpipU7dR5w</a></p>— Al Jazeera English (@AJEnglish) <a href="https://twitter.com/AJEnglish/status/1287119211064688641?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">July 25, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[uberkoen]

The absolute lie circulating on the web about Hagia Sophia is that Sultan Muhammad Fateh bought it from the Christians. This is absolute nonsense. No evidence for this ridiculous claim. Anyone making this claim is sadly either ignorant or is deliberately lying.

 

[MenInG]

 

[PakLFC]

Great decision by Mr Erdogan. I fully support the Sophia being converted to a Masjid. No one spoke when so many Masjids were converted to churches or nightclubs in Europe or Israel. Nice to see the shoe on the other foot for a change. Might is right in today's world.

 

[The Viper]

Great decision by Mr Erdogan. I fully support the Sophia being converted to a Masjid. No one spoke when so many Masjids were converted to churches or nightclubs in Europe or Israel. Nice to see the shoe on the other foot for a change. Might is right in today's world.

Exactly. Great decision by President Erdogan.

 

[Slog]

Sultan Mehmet bought the church and made it a mosque.


If I buy a property and add another floor to it, will the previous owner come back and say I sold you one storey house you can't convert it to two storey house?


<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">When Sultan Mehmet conquered Constantinople at the age of 21 and ended the Byzantine Empire in 1453, he paid for the property of <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/HagiaSophia?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#HagiaSophia</a> from his personal wealth before converting it into a mosque. The details of the renumeration are still saved in Turkish museums. <a href="https://t.co/pnFZf5SqrQ">pic.twitter.com/pnFZf5SqrQ</a></p>— Fidato (@tequieremos) <a href="https://twitter.com/tequieremos/status/1281864855251755010?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">July 11, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[MENTION=107753]uberkoen[/MENTION]

is this fake?

though in my opinion even if true i wouldnt put much stock into it due to likelihood of duress but ure saying this isnt even true anyway?

 

[uberkoen]

[MENTION=107753]uberkoen[/MENTION]

is this fake?

though in my opinion even if true i wouldnt put much stock into it due to likelihood of duress but ure saying this isnt even true anyway?

All the Christian and Muslim sources from the siege agree that Mehmet simply turned it into a mosque. There is no mention of any purchase in any of the sources.

When Mehmet entered the city after the siege he allowed his soldiers to loot the city for 3 days. After the three days of pillaging were over, Hagia Sophia was used for Friday prayers for the first time. The seat of the Greek patriarch moved to the Church of the Holy Apostles, but that church was already in ruins and there wasn't much chance of fixing it now. The site was abandoned and eventually Mehmed built a mosque there too (Fatih Mosque).

Hagia Sophia became a Waqf (Islamic endowment) property under Mehmed II and remained so until it became a museum.

The document that is being posted looks like the waqfiya of Mehmed II. The waqfiya does not indicate Hagia Sophia being bought at all.

Furthermore, looking at how things worked and taking an example of the Ottomans conquering Greece following the fall of Constantinople. They converted the Acropol in Athens into a mosque as well. There was no purchase that took place.

 

[JaDed]

https://www.france24.com/en/20200821-turkey-s-erdogan-converts-another-former-church-into-mosque

Turkey's Erdogan converts another former church into mosque

Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan on Friday ordered another ancient Orthodox church that became a mosque and then a popular Istanbul museum to be turned back into a place of Muslim worship.

The decision to transform the Kariye Museum into a mosque came just a month after a similarly controversial conversion for the UNESCO World Heritage-recognised Hagia Sophia.

Both changes reflect Erdogan's efforts to galvanise his more conservative and nationalist supporters at a time when Turkey is suffering a new spell of inflation and economic uncertainty caused by the coronavirus.

But they have added to Turkey's tensions with Greece and its Orthodox Church.

The Greek foreign ministry called the decision "yet another provocation against religious persons everywhere" by the Turkish government.

- 'Steeped in history' -

The 1,000-year-old building's history closely mirrors that of the Hagia Sophia -- its bigger neighbour on the historic western bank of the Golden Horn estuary on the European side of Istanbul.

The Holy Saviour in Chora was a medieval Byzantine church decorated with 14th-century frescoes of the Last Judgement that remain treasured in the Christian world.

It was originally converted into the Kariye Mosque half a century after the 1453 conquest of Constantinople by the Ottoman Turks.

It became the Kariye Museum after World War II as Turkey pushed ahead with the creation of a more secular new republic out of the ashes of the Ottoman Empire.

A group of American art historians then helped restore the original church's mosaics and opened them up for public display in 1958.

But Erdogan is placing an ever greater political emphasis on the battles that resulted in the defeat of Byzantium by the Ottomans.

Turkey's top administrative court approved the museum's conversion into a mosque in November.

"It's a place steeped in history which holds a lot of symbolism for a lot of different people," said 48-year-old French tourist Frederic Sicard outside the building.

"For me, (these conversions) are a little difficult to understand and to follow. But we would visit if it were a mosque. We might just have to arrange visits around prayer times."

- 'Tolerance' -

The sandy-coloured structure visible today replaced one created as a part of a monastery in the fourth century when Constantinople was the new capital of the Roman Empire.

It features a minaret in one corner and small cascading domes similar to those of other grand mosques whose calls to prayer echo over Istanbul.

But inside it is filled with magnificent frescoes and mosaics that represent some of the finest examples of Byzantine art in the Christian world.

Turkey's tumultuous efforts to reconcile these two histories form the underpinnings of the country's contemporary politics and social life.

Opposition HDP party lawmaker Garo Paylan called the transformation "a shame for our country".

"One of the symbols of our country's deep, multicultural identity and multi-religious history has been sacrified," he said in a tweet.

Yet some locals fully supported the change.

"There are dozens, hundreds of churches, synagogues in Istanbul and only a few of them have been opened to prayer as mosques," said Yucel Sahin as he strolled by the building after the morning rain.

"There is a lot of tolerance in our culture."

 

[MenInG]

After 88 years....

<iframe width="700" height="713" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/FHh6t3qFryw" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[JaDed]

Seems like the win was celebrated here, I see how iconic religious leaders time their win along with their location.