Has any player improved under the coaching of Mickey Arthur, Azhar Mahmood and Grant Flower?

[Titan24]

I am yet to see a player improve under this coaching trio with the exception of Babar Azam who is naturally gifted also he has played mainly under this set up so we will never know if this set up helped him or not as the set up surely didnt help any other and if they played any role why are other players not benefiting.

Fakhar Zaman: Still has the same issues as year or so before so I dont see any improvement.

Malik: Deteriorated big time under this set up, records can be looked upon and age is not helping him either.

Amir: Came back from ban well as was moving the ball at pace, Asia cup 2016 was one of his better performances. Since the last couple of years under this regime he has lost pace, swing, seam position and even point of delivery. Record of recent time speaks for itself.

Azhar Ali: Worst Phase of his career under this regime

Asad Shafiq: Worst Phase of his career under this regime

Yasir Shah: Still great in UAE tests and is still mostly ineffective in other formats and overseas tests.

Shadab Khan: When he debuted had natural flight, Spin and drift. There was a lot to built upon however he has deteriorated in every aspect except his fielding where above mentioned coaches play no role.

Hassan Ali: Improved tremendously in his first year or so but since CT LOIs performances have gone down big time and he is repeating the same mistakes again and again in terms of accuracy and setting the batsmen up.

Faheem Ashraf: Had a batting avg of around 32 in FC with 4 hundreds which shows he had the basic technique, he has deteriorated as a batsman under this regime and dont see much improvement from CT 17 as a bowler either.

Sarfaraz Ahmed: Deterioration since Mickey became coach and he became captain is visible in batting.

Shinwari: Still as inaccurate as when he started cricket, can swing the bowl from a good length sometimes but hitting that good length is a rarity. So no improvement in him as well.

So overall I dont see improvement in any player. Yes team ranking of LOIs improved a bit but thats due to new blood coming through PSL however we are not grooming them in any aspect. All of them are the same or worse cricketers they were a year before.

I dont see what difference are these coaches making in the backroom as on field I cant see any improvement.

 

[ads101]

Sign of coaching not working. Players are coming new into cricket and performing which signifies some talent. Then their performance goes, when it should be improving. It's a trend with our players.

I'd honestly get rid of all of them. Grant especially just been here too long, no difference, maybe his methods would work better somewhere else.

Mickey makes tactical errors, even gets the basics of team selection wrong consistently in Asia.

Azhar's probably the only one I think I can see something out of. Hasan improved till the CT, Shaheen's improved, and in CT looks like the fast bowlers did really well bowled well as a unit. Maybe he's just good and getting bowlers to bowl well in SENA conditions, or the fact he's played most of his cricket to the latter part in England so he knows how to bowl there. But even him, not enough.

The funny thing is that the coaches who showed the most improvement were the fielding coaches, who have both gone in pretty short succession yet the others are still there.

 

[Titan24]

Sign of coaching not working. Players are coming new into cricket and performing which signifies some talent. Then their performance goes, when it should be improving. It's a trend with our players.

I'd honestly get rid of all of them. Grant especially just been here too long, no difference, maybe his methods would work better somewhere else.

Mickey makes tactical errors, even gets the basics of team selection wrong consistently in Asia.

Azhar's probably the only one I think I can see something out of. Hasan improved till the CT, Shaheen's improved, and in CT looks like the fast bowlers did really well bowled well as a unit. Maybe he's just good and getting bowlers to bowl well in SENA conditions, or the fact he's played most of his cricket to the latter part in England so he knows how to bowl there. But even him, not enough.

The funny thing is that the coaches who showed the most improvement were the fielding coaches, who have both gone in pretty short succession yet the others are still there.

Exactly and I am surprised no one in the PCB can see the obvious. Whatever improvement there is in LOI is due to performances from players coming through of PSL. Its not like Mickey revolutionized the already available players.

 

[Titan24]

The difference a coaching set up can make a big difference as can be seen from India where bowling coach Bharat Arun has revolutionized their bowlers. Ishant Sharma was mediocre at best but since the new coaching set up he is as effective as any other bowler, same is the case with Shami who had a lot of potential but never fulfilled it earlier.

Same is the case with grooming youngsters in Kuldeep, Bumrah and Chahal. You can see huge improvement from where they were a year ago.

 

[topspin]

It's the specialist coaches in Azhar Mahmood and Grant Flower that are the culprits here.

Mickey has an excellent track record as evident from his CV and has done as best as he can with the constraints one has to contend with Pakistan cricket i.e. poor cricketing set up which reaps mediocre players these days. This is why it would be some task trying to convince a world class non-Pakistani coach to manage this side.

Unlike Geoff Lawson and other foreign coaches in the past (who were merely there to collect their paycheck), we're lucky to have a coach who cares to such extent, he is actually emotionally invested in Pakistan cricket. Mickey has flaws, notably with how to utilise spin bowlers as we saw during the SL whitewash series.

If it isn't Mickey we will see the return of Waqar Younis for his 3rd stint in the role and this would be a horrific return who will make the team go backwards. The biggest tactical failure you'll find from all the ATGs who've played the game. His cricketing philosophy in regards to batting entails having defensive batsmen at the top of the order and your best stroke players batting out of position down the order. He even did this to Babar Azam at the start of his career batting him at 6 in ODIs. His cricketing brain is as backwards as it gets and it comes to no surprise why he was such a shambles during his captaincy days.

It isn't Waqar Younis (or a world class overseas coach) it will be an even inferior Pakistani coach given the standard of coaching in Pakistan is awfully substandard.

I see too much credit being given to Inzy but truth is he would be better served as a batting coach for the side. We should cherish Mickey's presence and drive to enhance the standard of Pakistan cricket.

Under Misbah and Waqar this team was a 9th ranked ODI side and were responsible for Pakistan's worst ever ICC tournament during the 2013 CT.

They're still far from world class but they've made progress. CT was a purple patch however without progression Pakistan wouldn't have stood a chance of winning this tournament. Compare this performance with the previous CT held in the same venue but under an incompetent coach.

 

[Mueez]

This is a very underestimated point.

Coaching really does make a difference, however I think Mickey as head-coach is extremely good choice, but the bowling and batting coach haven’t done anything special.

Steve Rixon was an excellent fielding coach, but it is sad to see all the hard work being undone by Grant Luden.

Pakistan is also lacking a spinners coach, who can flourish our spinners in the squad. A coaching stint of Mushi will do wonders with Shadab’s bowling.

I think we only need to replace Azhar and Grant Flower, the rest is fine.


If only Wasim Akram was eligible to become bowling coach of this team...

 

[Pete Rose]

We could hire trevor bayliss

 

[Markhor]

Azhar Ali had his best phase of his career under this regime between 2016-17. Sharjeel Khan was progressing well until his ban. Fakhar Zaman's international record is fine. He struggled in the Tests in SA but so have countless Pak batsmen on their first tour. He improved in the 4th and 5th ODI. Mohammad Abbas has been excellent while Imam-ul-Haq was the leading run scorer in the ODI series.

Faheem was always a mediocre cricketer so you can't deteriorate any further. Where Mickey deserves criticism is picking this club level player for so long.

 

[mastersaan10]

soooo under which coach did any player improve???
we are acting as if other coaches turned salman butt into shikhar dhawans and we had 50 averaging batsmen before grant came. In all honesty, the batsmen now are a lot better than before but the issue remains that the talent is very limited. We don't have any dynamic players who can either hit big or even at a decent pace consistently. In the end, it comes down to our Pakistani mentality, where we just want to be better than the other players in the team. This is the reason that Babar is actually scoring, albeit not always in pressure situations, as he has said multiple times he wants to be a better batsman.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Babar . He's the only batsmen who has the potential to be ATG and is on his way under Mickey esp in the limited overs game.

Coach can only do so much, it's up to the selectors to give the coach better assets and its up to the players to work hard for self improvement.

 

[gazza619]

I would actually give credit to Mickey for the development of Babar and Fakhar. I know Fakhar is going through a bad phase but he will remain to be our gun player in limited overs cricket.

 

[Titan24]

It's the specialist coaches in Azhar Mahmood and Grant Flower that are the culprits here.

Mickey has an excellent track record as evident from his CV and has done as best as he can with the constraints one has to contend with Pakistan cricket i.e. poor cricketing set up which reaps mediocre players these days. This is why it would be some task trying to convince a world class non-Pakistani coach to manage this side.

Unlike Geoff Lawson and other foreign coaches in the past (who were merely there to collect their paycheck), we're lucky to have a coach who cares to such extent, he is actually emotionally invested in Pakistan cricket. Mickey has flaws, notably with how to utilise spin bowlers as we saw during the SL whitewash series.

If it isn't Mickey we will see the return of Waqar Younis for his 3rd stint in the role and this would be a horrific return who will make the team go backwards. The biggest tactical failure you'll find from all the ATGs who've played the game. His cricketing philosophy in regards to batting entails having defensive batsmen at the top of the order and your best stroke players batting out of position down the order. He even did this to Babar Azam at the start of his career batting him at 6 in ODIs. His cricketing brain is as backwards as it gets and it comes to no surprise why he was such a shambles during his captaincy days.

It isn't Waqar Younis (or a world class overseas coach) it will be an even inferior Pakistani coach given the standard of coaching in Pakistan is awfully substandard.

I see too much credit being given to Inzy but truth is he would be better served as a batting coach for the side. We should cherish Mickey's presence and drive to enhance the standard of Pakistan cricket.

Under Misbah and Waqar this team was a 9th ranked ODI side and were responsible for Pakistan's worst ever ICC tournament during the 2013 CT.

They're still far from world class but they've made progress. CT was a purple patch however without progression Pakistan wouldn't have stood a chance of winning this tournament. Compare this performance with the previous CT held in the same venue but under an incompetent coach.

I totally agree with what you have said but players produced from PSL coincidentally happened to be at the same time when Mickey took charge. He had a lot of better options to built his team upon. However, the improvement we all wanted to see in the guys is yet to be seen.

Even Misbah and Waqar combo won PSL with these young guys and to be honest some of them were looking more effective under them in PSL, yes standard is different but they were actually playing better cricket.

I think Mickey Arthur sometimes get too emotional for a coach and Australia fired him for very same reason with homework gate scandal.

Dont want Waqar to be coach but wont mind seeing someone like Mohsin Hassan in future.

 

[Titan24]

I would actually give credit to Mickey for the development of Babar and Fakhar. I know Fakhar is going through a bad phase but he will remain to be our gun player in limited overs cricket.

His player development has been great but then again he had players to develop which he got from PSL. Its not like he developed Shehzad or Umar Akmal, or improved Asad and Azhar.

 

[Titan24]

soooo under which coach did any player improve???
we are acting as if other coaches turned salman butt into shikhar dhawans and we had 50 averaging batsmen before grant came. In all honesty, the batsmen now are a lot better than before but the issue remains that the talent is very limited. We don't have any dynamic players who can either hit big or even at a decent pace consistently. In the end, it comes down to our Pakistani mentality, where we just want to be better than the other players in the team. This is the reason that Babar is actually scoring, albeit not always in pressure situations, as he has said multiple times he wants to be a better batsman.

I have given an example of Ishant, he was at best mediocre 3 years ago but look what this coaching setup has done with him.

Players developed under Bob Woolmer and as bowling coach under Waqar you could see the obvious difference in many bowlers. Also Mohsin Hassan Khan got the best out of most players for whatever limited time he was the coach you can check the record.

We havent had a great coach for a long time.

 

[Rana]

We could hire trevor bayliss

That should be the next step. Bayliss is Australian and I dont know if he is comfortable by going to the lion's den itself (Pakistan and its domestic set up) by unearthing limited overs talent the way he did with England. But if he is willing to do so I believe he will be the one that will develop the gems unearthed by Mickey into the next level.

Players like Talat Hussain, Faheem Ashraf, Bilal Asif, potentially Umar Akmal and other potential explosive batsmen will find a new realm to their batting under him. I also believe he will make Babar Azam into the complete batsman, the one who will potentially dispatch a mediocre bowler for 3-4 sixes when set at the crease

 

[Pete Rose]

That should be the next step. Bayliss is Australian and I dont know if he is comfortable by going to the lion's den itself (Pakistan and its domestic set up) by unearthing limited overs talent the way he did with England. But if he is willing to do so I believe he will be the one that will develop the gems unearthed by Mickey into the next level.

Players like Talat Hussain, Faheem Ashraf, Bilal Asif, potentially Umar Akmal and other potential explosive batsmen will find a new realm to their batting under him. I also believe he will make Babar Azam into the complete batsman, the one who will potentially dispatch a mediocre bowler for 3-4 sixes when set at the crease

Was trolling. Bayliss getting England walloped vs the windies

 

[Dr_Bassim]

OP, most of the players you have mentioned have performed tremendously in their first year or few years and then started deteriorating.

More than coaching it seems, when you first come to the scene, there is a mystery around you, and other teams don't know your weaknesses and strengths and you can have the luck going your way to claim extra scalps or score extra runs.

But when teams do video analysis and start targeting your weaknesses, you will naturally slip a bit downwards.

What happens afterwards is entirely upto the batsmen and the plans they have to counter it. An example would be Kohli failing miserably in England in his first tour and succeeding personally the second time around. At this professional level, most coaches don't teach you how to bat, but fine tune your game.

Any technical deficiency that exists, must be corrected by the batsmen himself at grassroot level, or back to the square board and then perform the extra mile.

I can agree its time to replace Grant Flower and Azhar should be on tenterhooks as well regarding the bowling going down.

But until the players themselves do not have the motivation to learn extra skills and learn the tricks of the trade and are content on status quo, no coach in the world is going to make a difference.

 

[Rana]

Was trolling. Bayliss getting England walloped vs the windies

Although I believe Test match dominance should be the ultimate goal, the Pakistani public and fans would like to see Pakistan dominate in the shorter format for certain. ECB wanted to go down this route and yes their Test cricket has suffered, but at least they feel comfortable knowing that they are entering ICC tournaments as one of the firm favourites be it T20 or ODI. Pakistan will only Improve as a Test team because they have hit rock bottom, but Improvements in limited overs cricket would make them a formidable force.

 

[Khwaja78]

Grant Flower is probably the worst but can they be blamed for the players available to them? The selectors are being protected here who are doing open nepotism and protecting certain favorites for last 2 years who are in the team without performing.
First they targeted Sarfraz now they are targeting Micki but trying to shield cs Inzamam, the real problem for the team. He has stopped its growth completely. Not a single debut batting soul picked in last 18-24 months apart from his nephew with a 33 average.

Most of Inzamam picks are averaging 20s in test format. And no one wants to question him. He picked HAfeez when he was captain and retained him with Hafeez touching new lows like 18 average as opener yet he was'nt dropped.

 

[topspin]

I totally agree with what you have said but players produced from PSL coincidentally happened to be at the same time when Mickey took charge. He had a lot of better options to built his team upon. However, the improvement we all wanted to see in the guys is yet to be seen.

Even Misbah and Waqar combo won PSL with these young guys and to be honest some of them were looking more effective under them in PSL, yes standard is different but they were actually playing better cricket.

I think Mickey Arthur sometimes get too emotional for a coach and Australia fired him for very same reason with homework gate scandal.

Dont want Waqar to be coach but wont mind seeing someone like Mohsin Hassan in future.

I agree the PSL has aided Mickey and Pakistan cricket with scoping the talent pool more effectively but you still have to utilise them the right way in LOIs in which Waqar failed miserably because of he dictated a conservative batting approach.

I doubt he would want Fakhar opening the batting in the CT. Mickey has to be given credit for his CT performances. If you remember before the tournament he looked substandard during the 2 or so T20Is in WI but somehow managed to change his mindset and approach just in time.

I know we agree on Waqar but I wouldn't read too much into his PSL accomplishments because I know for a fact if he was in charge he would bring this side so far down the rankings, they would have to enter WC qualification, after all they almost missed out on the CT being outside the top 8. If he was managing the side today, Azhar Ali would be in this XI as evident from his on air disgust of his exclusion during the WI tour. It wouldn't be a surprise if he was to bat Babar out of position as well. Mickey deserves credit for developing him at 3.

The homework gate scandal was a farce and I agree Mickey was far too emotional which inevitably resulted with him falling out with a fair few Aussie players. He deserved the sack for that but this is something he acknowledges as a regretful episode in his coaching career and I trust he has learnt his lesson. I don't advocate Sohail Khan's place in the side but he is another example of a player being a victim to Mickey's emotional side as shown from his exclusion in the Pakistan team and in the PSL for Karachi Kings. I had hoped he would have been persisted for a little longer as he bowled well in the last WC and was turning out to be a useful tail end slogger.

When you say Mohsin Hassan - are you referring to Mohsin Hassan Khan? (as in the PCB committee member).

 

[Greenstorm]

Grant Flower should have been fired a long time ago. Batsmen have actually regressed under him.

 

[ahmadharis1]

Dumb question, but why is Azhar Mahmood our bowling coach when he was such a mediocre bowler in his time? Averages of 36 in tests and 39 in ODIs don't scream "I know proper bowling methods" to me.

 

[shariqnoor]

People still not focusing on the root causes of mediocre batsmen and bowlers. It's not the bowling or batting coaches. It's the grassroot and domestic system that is churning mediocre cricketers. No batting or bowling coach can elevate these bunch of cricketers to greatness.

Mushtaq Ahmed worked wonders with the England team. Employed by Pakistan and we saw no improvements in the spin quality of the Pakistani bowlers. Saqlain Mushtaq does well with England and Bangladesh but fails to elevate a single Pakistani bowler.

Similarly, Azhar Mahmood around the world will have more success than with Pakistani bowlers. Pakistani players are coming out of a system that just isn't international standard at all. They are all playing on a little bit of natural talent without having the required technique to succeed in international cricket on a sustained basis.

These coaches need to be employed at U-13 level in order for us to see some change. What you guys are asking from them is nothing short of a miracle.

 

[Markhor]

Dumb question, but why is Azhar Mahmood our bowling coach when he was such a mediocre bowler in his time? Averages of 36 in tests and 39 in ODIs don't scream "I know proper bowling methods" to me.

What was Bob Woolmer's cricketing record before he became Pakistan's most successful coach ?

Great players don't always make great coaches. Sometimes they struggle to articulate what made them so successful. Some batsmen relied not so much on solid, well constructed techniques but good hand eye coordination and mental strength.

 

[Hasan123]

I think players have improved under this coaching staff. But Grant Flower needs to be moved on as he had long enough.

 

[sshakir411]

I don’t think Micky and Grant are the issue. Maybe the players can’t communicate or understand them due to the language. Moin as manager or something wouldn’t be bad. Will help Sarf too..and before he screwed it up by going to a casino during a wc he was doing an okay job being the buffer between the players and coach Waqar.

 

[todfod 11]

I am yet to see a player improve under this coaching trio with the exception of Babar Azam who is naturally gifted also he has played mainly under this set up so we will never know if this set up helped him or not as the set up surely didnt help any other and if they played any role why are other players not benefiting.

Fakhar Zaman: Still has the same issues as year or so before so I dont see any improvement.

Malik: Deteriorated big time under this set up, records can be looked upon and age is not helping him either.

Amir: Came back from ban well as was moving the ball at pace, Asia cup 2016 was one of his better performances. Since the last couple of years under this regime he has lost pace, swing, seam position and even point of delivery. Record of recent time speaks for itself.

Azhar Ali: Worst Phase of his career under this regime

Asad Shafiq: Worst Phase of his career under this regime

Yasir Shah: Still great in UAE tests and is still mostly ineffective in other formats and overseas tests.

Shadab Khan: When he debuted had natural flight, Spin and drift. There was a lot to built upon however he has deteriorated in every aspect except his fielding where above mentioned coaches play no role.

Hassan Ali: Improved tremendously in his first year or so but since CT LOIs performances have gone down big time and he is repeating the same mistakes again and again in terms of accuracy and setting the batsmen up.

Faheem Ashraf: Had a batting avg of around 32 in FC with 4 hundreds which shows he had the basic technique, he has deteriorated as a batsman under this regime and dont see much improvement from CT 17 as a bowler either.

Sarfaraz Ahmed: Deterioration since Mickey became coach and he became captain is visible in batting.

Shinwari: Still as inaccurate as when he started cricket, can swing the bowl from a good length sometimes but hitting that good length is a rarity. So no improvement in him as well.

So overall I dont see improvement in any player. Yes team ranking of LOIs improved a bit but thats due to new blood coming through PSL however we are not grooming them in any aspect. All of them are the same or worse cricketers they were a year before.

I dont see what difference are these coaches making in the backroom as on field I cant see any improvement.

some pkayers just got a big head after champions trophy 2017 to be honest. they never tried improving their skills.

 

[Shafi]

If the coaching and facilities really help students 100% then all the rich people's kids will be top position in the schools and students and poor people kids will be the bottom. But the reality is whoever has talent will shine whether he/she gets facilities or not. Prime example is M Yousuf.

Our current batch of players apart from 2-3 none of them have any talent and coaching will not improve them a lot unless they work hard to improve some sort of.

Sad to say but talent wise we are far behind than top 5 teams. Its sound ridiculous when people are boasting we have better talent than others. Its other way around