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Has Pakistan's batting improved?

Humza_Razzaque

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Pakistans Odi win streak has been extended to a run of 9 matches and its good to see that we are performing well but what has been the reason behind our good run,is it because our batting has finally improved and we have started playing "MODERN CRICKET" or is it that we are just bowling too well and because of that our batting just isnt being exposed? Although we did put in a very good batting performance against india in the ct final but then the other day we were only able to score 220 against Sirilanka in the 2nd odi and if it were not for Babar azam's century and our good bowling we could have lost that match.
 
I would definitely say it's because our batting has indeed improved. I mean yes, Pakistan's problem is inconsistency when it comes to batting, and nobody is a stranger to Pakistani batting collapses. But please also do keep in mind that UAE pitches are tough in general for the batsman and several of our best batsman were struggling because of that. However, I think the batting line up is looking a lot better than previous years. They've finally moved away from Ahmed Shehzad as an opener and brought in Imam ul Haq to sub in for either Azhar Ali (An okay opener, needs to improve strike rate) or Fakhar Zaman if they get injured. Babar Azam is also one of our most stable ODI batsman at #3. Shoaib Malik is also a pretty good power hitter, just needs to perform more in big match situations.

The changes I would make to the batting line up is bring in Haris Sohail at #4 (only God knows why they don't even give him a chance) and have him replace Hafeez, and have Fahim Ashraf come in at #6 to replace
Imad Wasim. It would make for a really strong middle order. And don't forget about Sarfaraz at #7 and Shadab at #8, so yeah, our batting has the potential to become just as strong has our bowling too.
 
It has yet to be tested against a team that know a par score on a flat track is 340+

One thing is for sure, you do not need a Miller or Devilliers type batsman striking at 160 to reach a 350 score, the aim must be to keep going at a run a ball until the 30th over, try getting 180-200 by 30 overs. once that platform is laid you can then build on it strongly in the last 20 overs. The issue in the past was that Pakistan were no where near aiming for this, going at 4 runs per over throughout most of the game and leaving too much to do near the end 'with wickets in hand'.

Another great improvement I have noticed is Hafeez's new approach in which he looks to attack, Pakistan were clearly missing a batsman like this in the middle order especially with the overall failure of Umar Akmal. Now, Pakistan has a very long batting line up. Pakistan basically won the 2nd ODI against Sri Lanka because of its depth in the batting. Good, clean hitters also coming in.

An improvement I want to see is Babar Azam trying to take the game by the scruff of the neck instead of always hiding behind the acceleration provided by Shoaib Malik, Fakhar Zaman and Hafeez. He clearly said in a post match interview in one of the games that "Malik bhai was hitting so well so I didnt need to attack". Like why? Honestly would Joe Root or Virat Kohli ever say that Ben stokes or Sharma were hitting so well so I didnt have to play attacking? Needs to change this mindset, soon he will be found out losing games when scrutanized heavily by proper pundits in Sky Sports or when they tour Australia again
 
Yeah. You have three experienced batsmen who score at a high enough average at SR for the modern game in Babar, Malik and Sarfraz (the latter hasn't been batting enough as he's been down the order but really should promote himself). You also have Fakhar who's new but so far doing a great job. There was a time when we had zero batsmen.

Honestly this team is good enough to be in the top 4, and I look forward to it climbing the rankings in ODIs.
 
Yes it has. Compare this team to the one that played in 2015 WC.

Fakhar > Jamshed
Azhar > Shehzad
Babar > Younis
Hafeez < Haris
Malik > Misbah
Sarfraz = Akmal
Fahim > Maqsood
 
It has yet to be tested against a team that know a par score on a flat track is 340+

One thing is for sure, you do not need a Miller or Devilliers type batsman striking at 160 to reach a 350 score, the aim must be to keep going at a run a ball until the 30th over, try getting 180-200 by 30 overs. once that platform is laid you can then build on it strongly in the last 20 overs. The issue in the past was that Pakistan were no where near aiming for this, going at 4 runs per over throughout most of the game and leaving too much to do near the end 'with wickets in hand'.

Another great improvement I have noticed is Hafeez's new approach in which he looks to attack, Pakistan were clearly missing a batsman like this in the middle order especially with the overall failure of Umar Akmal. Now, Pakistan has a very long batting line up. Pakistan basically won the 2nd ODI against Sri Lanka because of its depth in the batting. Good, clean hitters also coming in.

An improvement I want to see is Babar Azam trying to take the game by the scruff of the neck instead of always hiding behind the acceleration provided by Shoaib Malik, Fakhar Zaman and Hafeez. He clearly said in a post match interview in one of the games that "Malik bhai was hitting so well so I didnt need to attack". Like why? Honestly would Joe Root or Virat Kohli ever say that Ben stokes or Sharma were hitting so well so I didnt have to play attacking? Needs to change this mindset, soon he will be found out losing games when scrutanized heavily by proper pundits in Sky Sports or when they tour Australia again

This agree!

Only thing I would add is when chasing 300+ need to stay ahead of the asking rate. If the target is 300 - bat at a run rate of 7. If the target is 350 - bat at a RR of 8 etc. Can't afford to stay behind a run chase and let the RR climb and go out of hand.
 
Our batting line up is one of the best in the world.

Any team would be lucky to have Fakhar, Babar and Malik. On top of that our lower order has to be longest in world cricket. Heck Amir comes in at 10 and he has two three fifties and can use the long handle. Imad, Shadab, Fahim, Hasan and Amir WOW

Only a matter of time when Fakhar regains his CT form and then Pak will skyrocket through the rankings. Our bowling has already brought back the era of 250 par score.
 
Our batting line up is one of the best in the world.

Any team would be lucky to have Fakhar, Babar and Malik. On top of that our lower order has to be longest in world cricket. Heck Amir comes in at 10 and he has two three fifties and can use the long handle. Imad, Shadab, Fahim, Hasan and Amir WOW

Only a matter of time when Fakhar regains his CT form and then Pak will skyrocket through the rankings. Our bowling has already brought back the era of 250 par score.

what about hafiz at 4??
 
Just need another aggressive opener to partner Fakhar, and Haris to slot in at #4 and we have the best batting lineup in the world.

Even our no 10 (Amir)can score a 50 and that too at a 200SR.

No other team bats this deep except maybe England.
 
The changes I would make to the batting line up is bring in Haris Sohail at #4 (only God knows why they don't even give him a chance)

Haris was injured during the ODI series. If he wants to be picked he should try keeping himself fit.
 
This team has some good batting depth. Only Junaid is a certified tailender. Everyone else can bat a bit.
 
Our batting line up is one of the best in the world.

Any team would be lucky to have Fakhar, Babar and Malik. On top of that our lower order has to be longest in world cricket. Heck Amir comes in at 10 and he has two three fifties and can use the long handle. Imad, Shadab, Fahim, Hasan and Amir WOW

Only a matter of time when Fakhar regains his CT form and then Pak will skyrocket through the rankings. Our bowling has already brought back the era of 250 par score.

Yes the likes of India, England, South Africa, Australia and New Zealand are ready to trade their openers for him. Fakhar is good for our standards but the fact is that he doesn't get into any top team. Probably won't make the bench either.

It simply illustrates how far behind we are in batting. None of our batsmen gets into any top side including Babar, who is a wonderful player but he is in accumulator who holds the innings together, and all top sides have better accumulators than him.
 
Our batting has improved from the dark era of 2011-2015, but it is still very mediocre compared to the top teams. It is all relative, improving on your previous mediocrity doesn't mean much as long as you continue to be well behind the serious teams.
 
Our batting has improved, but we still need to find couple of more batsmen. First haris needs to replace hafeez. we badly need a hard hitting opening batsmen. Sharjeel was ideal but..
 
Yes the likes of India, England, South Africa, Australia and New Zealand are ready to trade their openers for him. Fakhar is good for our standards but the fact is that he doesn't get into any top team. Probably won't make the bench either.

It simply illustrates how far behind we are in batting. None of our batsmen gets into any top side including Babar, who is a wonderful player but he is in accumulator who holds the innings together, and all top sides have better accumulators than him.

Wow yaar... just because the #4 ranked ODI batsman is Pakistani he won’t walk into any ODI team. Babar is already better than Root, Smith and Williamson in ODIs anyway.
 
Babar Azam better than Joe Root and Steve Smith.

What a delusional fan base we have lol.
 
This team has some good batting depth. Only Junaid is a certified tailender. Everyone else can bat a bit.

Raees/Usman can't really bat either. Amir has his moments, but still is more a tailender.

Might be the future to start lengthening our batting order, we can't seem to produce a good enough batting side from 1-7, but we might be able to mitigate that in other ways. Might be worth looking into fahim as third pacer. Might make us slightly weaker with the ball, but the extra batting boost I feel is probably worth it.
 
Babar Azam better than Joe Root and Steve Smith.

What a delusional fan base we have lol.

ODI cricket. Babar is definitely better than Joe Root at least.

Steve Smith has played a fantastic innings under pressure in a world cup semi final.
 
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ODI cricket. Babar is definitely better than Joe Root at least.

Steve Smith has played a fantastic innings under pressure in a world cup semi final.

No he isn't better than them yet. He may get there but as of now they have an extra gear which he doesn't have in particular Root does.

Yes Smith has played a pressure knock, Babar doesn't have a knock like that yet.
 
Our batting has improved but as [MENTION=143344]babajee[/MENTION] said there is need of further improvement. Something like this:

Fakhar
Attacking opener
Babar
Haris
Sarfi
Malik
Shady
Faheem
Hasan
Amir
Bowler

That will be a pretty good lineup able to consistently score 280-300 in different conditions. Malik and Sarfraz are masters against spin while Haris and Babar against pace. Fakhar is a dashing opener who can score at 100+ SR. Shady to stabalize things in a collapse and Faheem for hard hitting at death or when situation demands.
 
Our batting line up has improved slightly not much. Can't afford to carry Hafeez any longer and need to find Fakhar a partner. Furthermore need Shadab and Faheem to keep developing.
 
Off course batting line up has improved. Any blind man can see that. But still a long way to go before competing with best batting line ups.
 
Wow yaar... just because the #4 ranked ODI batsman is Pakistani he won’t walk into any ODI team. Babar is already better than Root, Smith and Williamson in ODIs anyway.

It is about what he brings to the team and not the ranking. He is an accumulator and the top sides already have superior accumulators. He doesn't bring anything new to the table.

No he is not better than Root, Smith and Williamson already. He is unlikely to overtake the former two, but yes he has the potential to be a better ODI batsman than Williamson if he keeps it up.
 
Haris Sohail will be 29 in a couple of months and he is starting his career only now. However, people are calling him an ATG in the making.

No player in history has managed to become an ATG by starting his career when he was almost 30. People like Gilchrist and Donald did not get going till they where 25-26, but I don't know anyone who started their careers at 30 and went on to become an ATG.

However, Haris Sohail will be the first one because he is Pakistani.
 
Has improved with regards to strike rotation but the lack of powerhitting will cost us in big chases or if we're put into bat and need to score a big total.

Fakhar's technical limitations were being exposed in the Sri Lanka series nor has he had a fixed partner in ODIs and T20Is.

As mentioned, the NZ series will be a barometer of how far this revamped ODI and T20 side has progressed.
 
Haris Sohail will be 29 in a couple of months and he is starting his career only now. However, people are calling him an ATG in the making.

No player in history has managed to become an ATG by starting his career when he was almost 30. People like Gilchrist and Donald did not get going till they where 25-26, but I don't know anyone who started their careers at 30 and went on to become an ATG.

However, Haris Sohail will be the first one because he is Pakistani.

Mike Hussey
 
Haris Sohail will be 29 in a couple of months and he is starting his career only now. However, people are calling him an ATG in the making.

No player in history has managed to become an ATG by starting his career when he was almost 30. People like Gilchrist and Donald did not get going till they where 25-26, but I don't know anyone who started their careers at 30 and went on to become an ATG.

However, Haris Sohail will be the first one because he is Pakistani.

Yeah such a shame in Haris case that he was inducted into the team so late compounded by long term injury.
 
Yeah such a shame in Haris case that he was inducted into the team so late compounded by long term injury.

He should have played 100+ ODIs and 50+ Tests by now. That is a lot of potential wasted, because he was ready for international cricket by 2011-2012. However, he can still play for 7-8 years and score around 5,000 runs in both Tests and ODIs.

Unfortunately I don't see him getting a place in the ODI team till the World Cup which means another couple of years are going to be wasted. That injury was very untimely as well, he was becoming a very key player. However, one man's loss is another man's gain, and his injury was beneficial for Babar's career.
 
Yes, it is almost impossible to have a better career if you are not an established star by the age of 30.

I think Haris will be able to establish himself as a star by the time he is 30. He showed that he was our best test batsman in the SL series.

Babar-Haris will be a fruitful combo for many years InshaAllah.
 
drop hafeez and one opener and bring umar amin and haris sohail,then this team looks good ..
 
[mention=79064]mmhs[/mention]>

Approach has changed indeed. Also, finally they have understood that MoHa is too good for Top 3 spots.

Next step is change in personal - that might take a bit longer.
 
Approach has changed indeed. Also, finally they have understood that MoHa is too good for Top 3 spots.

Next step is change in personal - that might take a bit longer.

haris or amin for hafiz and an agressive opener???what else u need??? and that can happen depending on what happens in next ten days.
 
I think Haris will be able to establish himself as a star by the time he is 30. He showed that he was our best test batsman in the SL series.

Babar-Haris will be a fruitful combo for many years InshaAllah.

Haris is a very good batsman and he can certainly be a star, but he is not going to become an ATG. It is very late for that.
 
[MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION] umar amin is so pleasing to watch.ope he find his place in odi and test.
 
Alhumdulillah I do not remember any Pakistan side having 3 batsmen averaging in the 40+

The last time we had such a strong batting line up was in 1987 WC...Even the 1999 team had poor batting apart from S.Anwer,Inzi since Yousuf never played that many matches..

The best part about the current team is that almost everyone except number 11 can bat...
 
drop hafeez and one opener and bring umar amin and haris sohail,then this team looks good ..

Akmal looked in great shape (of his standard) as well - only he in PAK can play those back-foot shots, so well. Not a bad shout for opener, if he is given a free license - one of Amin or Fakhar can partner him. Problem is, Ul Haq has placed bhatiza at the perfect time to cash on SRL and Azhar is coming back. The way Fakhar is struggling I tend to like Amin/Akmal pairing - they might end up with Azhar/Imam.

Things will be back to squire then - add to that MoHa at 4 and obviously Sarfraz will be at 6; that actually takes this thread to backwards ........ again we'll start to miss Afridi and feel that instead of Shadab/Fahim, Lala at 7/8 could have won chasing 151 in last 72 balls, Larke Lenge estyle .......
 
Akmal looked in great shape (of his standard) as well - only he in PAK can play those back-foot shots, so well. Not a bad shout for opener, if he is given a free license - one of Amin or Fakhar can partner him. Problem is, Ul Haq has placed bhatiza at the perfect time to cash on SRL and Azhar is coming back. The way Fakhar is struggling I tend to like Amin/Akmal pairing - they might end up with Azhar/Imam.

Things will be back to squire then - add to that MoHa at 4 and obviously Sarfraz will be at 6; that actually takes this thread to backwards ........ again we'll start to miss Afridi and feel that instead of Shadab/Fahim, Lala at 7/8 could have won chasing 151 in last 72 balls, Larke Lenge estyle .......

I agree with you completely, i am not convinced by fakhar yet and definetly azhar and imam are not the solution either. We need to experiment now before it's too late.

My 11 will be ( experimenting)

Amin/ Haris
Umar Akmal/ Zeeshan/ Hammad
Babar (infact him openeing won't be a bad idea)
Sarfraz/ Haris
Malik
Amir yamin/ or someone else other then hafeez
Shadab
Fahim
hasan
amir
New pacer (under 25)
 
I agree with you completely, i am not convinced by fakhar yet and definetly azhar and imam are not the solution either. We need to experiment now before it's too late.

My 11 will be ( experimenting)

Amin/ Haris
Umar Akmal/ Zeeshan/ Hammad
Babar (infact him openeing won't be a bad idea)
Sarfraz/ Haris
Malik
Amir yamin/ or someone else other then hafeez
Shadab
Fahim
hasan
amir
New pacer (under 25)

Since the PP was introduced sometimes around 1992 WC, game become head heavy - teams try to build momentum at start, reduce the asking or at least try not to raise in PP. But, to do so, you can't reach 100/4 even @ 8 RR, then you won't play out even 50 overs and fail to chase or put even par score (which has changed from 200 to 300 in course of time for several different factors).

So, Martin (Crowe) started the revolution with Greatbatch, WI also put BC at top - Arjuna (& Dav) took it to another level - 2 all-rounders at top (Kalu was an all-rounder as well), then his best 3 players at 3-5. Idea was that, if his openers blasts, game should end in 40 overs, if not still it's not a disaster, because those 2 openers had duel roles and naturally aggressive players. Interestingly, in 1996 WC, for SF & Final, SRL's openers' contribution was I believe 0, 0, 3 & 5, still it hardly mattered.

Now, not every team had a Sanath, so they started to bring their free scoring players up - idea was that these players can hit every loose ball, but good/selective enough to survive the new ball and once set, can convert starts to reach 100, can rotate in middle overs. One by one every team brought their best middle orders to open - Lara, ST, Gilly, Mark, Ganguly, Astle, Fleming, KP, Sehwag, Gibbs, Dilshan, Mahela ........ even we put Ashraful at the top!!!! It was good fortune for PAK cricket that, some how despite being aggressive players, Saeed-Sohail used to open in domestic, so they were sent as bakra (read opener), and that guy Saeed Anwar had 19 ODI hundreds in about 170 matches in 7-8 years (he had one in last 50+ months and took 3 years for 1st one) - that's in any era/standard in outstanding, and he did that at 85+ SR, which is almost blasphemous for PAK think tank (read risking to expose middle order against new ball). They tried it other way - opened with Afridi - against new ball and against best 2 pacers!!!!!!

Now, coming to openers, obviously I would like Soumya to average 50 at 100 SR, but that's a bit above average staff - next is a choice between 25/110 or 50/70. I tend to believe that, when you have Amir & Hasan at 9/10 - it's better to risk 201/4 at 35th over, rather than 150/1 - unfortunately, PAK think tank believed in the other option, hence Azhar/Shezad opened for 2 years & Umar was expected to win from #7 - again, larke lenge style.

It's a fundamental difference of how one see the game - IND think tank see it as a initiative to hold the game by it's neck from the beginning, so they sent Sehwag at 1 from 6; Pak tank see it to kill at stage (I am not sure if the term "Stage pe Maar" is familiar in PAK or not) - so they sent Umar/Maqsood from 3 to 7.

Umar should be a fantastic ODI/T20 opener, if the expectation is measured. If someone goes for the kill, obviously he'll get out softly many times - but, he is not killing the game with 19 (35) in PP - if he plays 35 balls, he'll reach 50; if he goes out for 19, won't cost more than 15/16 balls - that allows the next man time enough to reconstruct, there are 5/6 batsmen for a reason and that's why we talk about batting depth, otherwise 3 batsmen should do the job every time. In between, if say one out of 10 times, if he bats till 35th overs - it'll take herculean effort from both sides, for PAK to lose that game. Problem is, when people start discussion with - Bradman's average is 99, Viv's SR is 77 ................

I am pretty sure, by now apart from their die hard fans, most people watching PAK's game actually prays that Azhar, Sarfraz, MoHa, Shehzad doesn't last long (but they do expect that PAK's RR should never go below 5 at any stage !!!!!!!) - that's the travesty of PAK ODI team; skill or batting talent isn't the big issue even in batting.
 
Since the PP was introduced sometimes around 1992 WC, game become head heavy - teams try to build momentum at start, reduce the asking or at least try not to raise in PP. But, to do so, you can't reach 100/4 even @ 8 RR, then you won't play out even 50 overs and fail to chase or put even par score (which has changed from 200 to 300 in course of time for several different factors).

So, Martin (Crowe) started the revolution with Greatbatch, WI also put BC at top - Arjuna (& Dav) took it to another level - 2 all-rounders at top (Kalu was an all-rounder as well), then his best 3 players at 3-5. Idea was that, if his openers blasts, game should end in 40 overs, if not still it's not a disaster, because those 2 openers had duel roles and naturally aggressive players. Interestingly, in 1996 WC, for SF & Final, SRL's openers' contribution was I believe 0, 0, 3 & 5, still it hardly mattered.

Now, not every team had a Sanath, so they started to bring their free scoring players up - idea was that these players can hit every loose ball, but good/selective enough to survive the new ball and once set, can convert starts to reach 100, can rotate in middle overs. One by one every team brought their best middle orders to open - Lara, ST, Gilly, Mark, Ganguly, Astle, Fleming, KP, Sehwag, Gibbs, Dilshan, Mahela ........ even we put Ashraful at the top!!!! It was good fortune for PAK cricket that, some how despite being aggressive players, Saeed-Sohail used to open in domestic, so they were sent as bakra (read opener), and that guy Saeed Anwar had 19 ODI hundreds in about 170 matches in 7-8 years (he had one in last 50+ months and took 3 years for 1st one) - that's in any era/standard in outstanding, and he did that at 85+ SR, which is almost blasphemous for PAK think tank (read risking to expose middle order against new ball). They tried it other way - opened with Afridi - against new ball and against best 2 pacers!!!!!!

Now, coming to openers, obviously I would like Soumya to average 50 at 100 SR, but that's a bit above average staff - next is a choice between 25/110 or 50/70. I tend to believe that, when you have Amir & Hasan at 9/10 - it's better to risk 201/4 at 35th over, rather than 150/1 - unfortunately, PAK think tank believed in the other option, hence Azhar/Shezad opened for 2 years & Umar was expected to win from #7 - again, larke lenge style.

It's a fundamental difference of how one see the game - IND think tank see it as a initiative to hold the game by it's neck from the beginning, so they sent Sehwag at 1 from 6; Pak tank see it to kill at stage (I am not sure if the term "Stage pe Maar" is familiar in PAK or not) - so they sent Umar/Maqsood from 3 to 7.

Umar should be a fantastic ODI/T20 opener, if the expectation is measured. If someone goes for the kill, obviously he'll get out softly many times - but, he is not killing the game with 19 (35) in PP - if he plays 35 balls, he'll reach 50; if he goes out for 19, won't cost more than 15/16 balls - that allows the next man time enough to reconstruct, there are 5/6 batsmen for a reason and that's why we talk about batting depth, otherwise 3 batsmen should do the job every time. In between, if say one out of 10 times, if he bats till 35th overs - it'll take herculean effort from both sides, for PAK to lose that game. Problem is, when people start discussion with - Bradman's average is 99, Viv's SR is 77 ................

I am pretty sure, by now apart from their die hard fans, most people watching PAK's game actually prays that Azhar, Sarfraz, MoHa, Shehzad doesn't last long (but they do expect that PAK's RR should never go below 5 at any stage !!!!!!!) - that's the travesty of PAK ODI team; skill or batting talent isn't the big issue even in batting.

foregt about umar akmal.the only place he can come is wicket keeper which looks impossible.he is done and dusted.
 
No he isn't better than them yet. He may get there but as of now they have an extra gear which he doesn't have in particular Root does.

Yes Smith has played a pressure knock, Babar doesn't have a knock like that yet.

Firstly, dude what's with this "Babar can't accelerate" stuff that's been circulating around so much. Just have look at the Windies Series (both in UAE and in WI) or even against the World XI, after he gets set, the shots he hits are incredible. Don't just base all his potential on one series played on very slow pitches. The guy is just a kid, with very less meat on him. Let him build that up, and he'll be smacking it everywhere. Secondly, I think the Root example is very misplaced. If you haven't followed him porperly, Root was actually criticised a lot for his lack of power, as recent as the IndvsEng 2016 series. WC 2016 was probably the time he started working on his power hitting (judging from the inings vs South Africa), but it took him quite some time to integrate that to his regular game (as evident in the IndvsEng 2016). Thirdly, why are we hell bent on making our very own replica of modern batting exponents. Why can't we just be happy, that we have a guy who can score consistently and in all places and in all situations. Atm, I'd like to think of Babar as more of Pakistan's Hashim Amla. I'm sure he'll improve his hitting ability (In Sha Allah), but he has showed quite a few glimpses as well.
 
Haris Sohail will be 29 in a couple of months and he is starting his career only now. However, people are calling him an ATG in the making.

No player in history has managed to become an ATG by starting his career when he was almost 30. People like Gilchrist and Donald did not get going till they where 25-26, but I don't know anyone who started their careers at 30 and went on to become an ATG.

However, Haris Sohail will be the first one because he is Pakistani.

Hussey?
 
Pakistan's batting talent has not improved much albeit i have to say that with the limited batting talent , the Players know their roles better.
 
Also Matthew Hayden. Even though he made his debut in 1994, he made a come back in 2001 series in India when he was 30 and had a brilliant career after that.

Hayden is an Australian great..not an ATG.
 
Also Matthew Hayden. Even though he made his debut in 1994, he made a come back in 2001 series in India when he was 30 and had a brilliant career after that.

Yes good example!
 
I still advocate Haris Sohail for the opening spot which will be a big improvement in our lineup. But the guy seems more fragile than glass.
 
Since the PP was introduced sometimes around 1992 WC, game become head heavy - teams try to build momentum at start, reduce the asking or at least try not to raise in PP. But, to do so, you can't reach 100/4 even @ 8 RR, then you won't play out even 50 overs and fail to chase or put even par score (which has changed from 200 to 300 in course of time for several different factors).

So, Martin (Crowe) started the revolution with Greatbatch, WI also put BC at top - Arjuna (& Dav) took it to another level - 2 all-rounders at top (Kalu was an all-rounder as well), then his best 3 players at 3-5. Idea was that, if his openers blasts, game should end in 40 overs, if not still it's not a disaster, because those 2 openers had duel roles and naturally aggressive players. Interestingly, in 1996 WC, for SF & Final, SRL's openers' contribution was I believe 0, 0, 3 & 5, still it hardly mattered.

Now, not every team had a Sanath, so they started to bring their free scoring players up - idea was that these players can hit every loose ball, but good/selective enough to survive the new ball and once set, can convert starts to reach 100, can rotate in middle overs. One by one every team brought their best middle orders to open - Lara, ST, Gilly, Mark, Ganguly, Astle, Fleming, KP, Sehwag, Gibbs, Dilshan, Mahela ........ even we put Ashraful at the top!!!! It was good fortune for PAK cricket that, some how despite being aggressive players, Saeed-Sohail used to open in domestic, so they were sent as bakra (read opener), and that guy Saeed Anwar had 19 ODI hundreds in about 170 matches in 7-8 years (he had one in last 50+ months and took 3 years for 1st one) - that's in any era/standard in outstanding, and he did that at 85+ SR, which is almost blasphemous for PAK think tank (read risking to expose middle order against new ball). They tried it other way - opened with Afridi - against new ball and against best 2 pacers!!!!!!

Now, coming to openers, obviously I would like Soumya to average 50 at 100 SR, but that's a bit above average staff - next is a choice between 25/110 or 50/70. I tend to believe that, when you have Amir & Hasan at 9/10 - it's better to risk 201/4 at 35th over, rather than 150/1 - unfortunately, PAK think tank believed in the other option, hence Azhar/Shezad opened for 2 years & Umar was expected to win from #7 - again, larke lenge style.

It's a fundamental difference of how one see the game - IND think tank see it as a initiative to hold the game by it's neck from the beginning, so they sent Sehwag at 1 from 6; Pak tank see it to kill at stage (I am not sure if the term "Stage pe Maar" is familiar in PAK or not) - so they sent Umar/Maqsood from 3 to 7.

Umar should be a fantastic ODI/T20 opener, if the expectation is measured. If someone goes for the kill, obviously he'll get out softly many times - but, he is not killing the game with 19 (35) in PP - if he plays 35 balls, he'll reach 50; if he goes out for 19, won't cost more than 15/16 balls - that allows the next man time enough to reconstruct, there are 5/6 batsmen for a reason and that's why we talk about batting depth, otherwise 3 batsmen should do the job every time. In between, if say one out of 10 times, if he bats till 35th overs - it'll take herculean effort from both sides, for PAK to lose that game. Problem is, when people start discussion with - Bradman's average is 99, Viv's SR is 77 ................

I am pretty sure, by now apart from their die hard fans, most people watching PAK's game actually prays that Azhar, Sarfraz, MoHa, Shehzad doesn't last long (but they do expect that PAK's RR should never go below 5 at any stage !!!!!!!) - that's the travesty of PAK ODI team; skill or batting talent isn't the big issue even in batting.

Actually, would just like to correct on one thing.

Lara, SRT, Mark Waugh all opened before Sanath and Kalu started.

Lara in 92, SRT in 94 and both were successfull and attacking.

Lanka took it to another extreme where both used to just attack and wouldnt think of saving there wicket but this approach only worked till 98.
 
Firstly, dude what's with this "Babar can't accelerate" stuff that's been circulating around so much. Just have look at the Windies Series (both in UAE and in WI) or even against the World XI, after he gets set, the shots he hits are incredible. Don't just base all his potential on one series played on very slow pitches. The guy is just a kid, with very less meat on him. Let him build that up, and he'll be smacking it everywhere. Secondly, I think the Root example is very misplaced. If you haven't followed him porperly, Root was actually criticised a lot for his lack of power, as recent as the IndvsEng 2016 series. WC 2016 was probably the time he started working on his power hitting (judging from the inings vs South Africa), but it took him quite some time to integrate that to his regular game (as evident in the IndvsEng 2016). Thirdly, why are we hell bent on making our very own replica of modern batting exponents. Why can't we just be happy, that we have a guy who can score consistently and in all places and in all situations. Atm, I'd like to think of Babar as more of Pakistan's Hashim Amla. I'm sure he'll improve his hitting ability (In Sha Allah), but he has showed quite a few glimpses as well.


Well against Australia, his SR before he reached 50 was very slow.

Yes I know Root has improved his power hitting, if Babar wants to be up there with the best he will need to show he can maintain a high strike rate for most of his innings. Most of the top ODI batters now can bat at a strike rate of 90 for a majority of there innings.

Yes we are happy with his start so far but what's wrong with wanting him to improve? If he carries on the way he is he won't have much impact on games. All the top batsmen are always looking to improve.
 
Pakistan’s batting has been pretty dismal especially in recent test matches. It’s not the first time our bowling attack has bailed out our batsmen. Recent bowling performances meant, batting hasn’t come under scrutiny. The opening batsmen slot is still questionable, no solid middle order batsmen and no big hitter to rapidly escalate the run rate. Our batsmen clearly get exposed against good bowlers and challenging batting conditions. So overall, NO our batting has not progressed but regressed.
 
Actually, would just like to correct on one thing.

Lara, SRT, Mark Waugh all opened before Sanath and Kalu started.

Lara in 92, SRT in 94 and both were successfull and attacking.

Lanka took it to another extreme where both used to just attack and wouldnt think of saving there wicket but this approach only worked till 98.

Thanks, I know this actually - that’s why I mentioned that Arjuna took it to another level - instead of Sanath-Ari he brought Kalu to open with Samantha.

Order should have been better in my post, but the idea is same. However, I think SRL started using Sanath as opener sometimes in 1993/94 and Kalu a little later - it was WC that they got the notice, but I can recall Kalu almost winning WSC of 1995 as opener.

Regarding effectiveness, it didn’t work after few years because Kalu wasn’t that good a batsman - his overall career stats is like 23/90, therefore he was bound to fail, particularly if you consider the opening bowling pair of almost every team. But, it (bringing WK as opener and give him a free license - since he is in duel purpose, even a duck isn’t disaster in terms of contribution unless he takes 12 balls to svorebthat duck) did work for AUS, partially for WI as well.
 
Well against Australia, his SR before he reached 50 was very slow.

Yes I know Root has improved his power hitting, if Babar wants to be up there with the best he will need to show he can maintain a high strike rate for most of his innings. Most of the top ODI batters now can bat at a strike rate of 90 for a majority of there innings.

Yes we are happy with his start so far but what's wrong with wanting him to improve? If he carries on the way he is he won't have much impact on games. All the top batsmen are always looking to improve.

Yeah I agree with you on the part that he should be looking to improve. But my point is that we shouldn't forget that he's atleat 4 years younger than all the best batsmen of the modern era. We need to give him time and not just say that he isn't better than someone (although his stats, consistency and records indicate that) just because he doesn't have the same hitting ability. He is better than most modern batsmen were at his age. But again, I do agree that he should improve his game.
 
Yeah I agree with you on the part that he should be looking to improve. But my point is that we shouldn't forget that he's atleat 4 years younger than all the best batsmen of the modern era. We need to give him time and not just say that he isn't better than someone (although his stats, consistency and records indicate that) just because he doesn't have the same hitting ability. He is better than most modern batsmen were at his age. But again, I do agree that he should improve his game.


He shouldn't be compared to the top batsmen of this generation. If he is than of course I will respond by saying has not better. He can get to that level if he makes improvements and maintain his current hunger for runs.
 
Haris is a very good batsman and he can certainly be a star, but he is not going to become an ATG. It is very late for that.

Yes but keep in mind that Pakistani cricketers play long atleast till 40s...
That has been the trend post 2010
 
Babar is the greatest thing to happen to pakistan's batting lineup in the past 10 years. Anyone who thinks his strike rate is abysmal clearly doesnt understand the batting lineup's approach of batting around babar. I dont recall kohli having the same hitting capability at babar's age. He developed that capability after focussing on fitness and hitting the gym to build up muscle mass, which takes years to achieve in itself. Strike rate is something that babar will increase with time. I dont think we want another akmal bradri type player who keeps trying to hit boundries regardless of the match situation and getting out at crucial points.
 
Babar is the greatest thing to happen to pakistan's batting lineup in the past 10 years. Anyone who thinks his strike rate is abysmal clearly doesnt understand the batting lineup's approach of batting around babar. I dont recall kohli having the same hitting capability at babar's age. He developed that capability after focussing on fitness and hitting the gym to build up muscle mass, which takes years to achieve in itself. Strike rate is something that babar will increase with time. I dont think we want another akmal bradri type player who keeps trying to hit boundries regardless of the match situation and getting out at crucial points.

Not sure what you are talking about but Virat Kohli scored that amazing 133 of 80 odd balls when he was just 24. This was way before Virat started working on his fitness. The fitness thing is just over the last 2 or 3 years. He also scored that amazing 183 against Pakistan around the same time.
 
He shouldn't be compared to the top batsmen of this generation. If he is than of course I will respond by saying has not better. He can get to that level if he makes improvements and maintain his current hunger for runs.

Yes I understand what you're trying to say, but on what basis can you say that he isn't better than some of the other players. Remember when we're comparing a player whose played 30 odd matches to people who have played about 80 odd, it means the main basis will be on the performance of both at the same stage of the career. Like for example, Virat Kohli, when we compare him to SRT, we compare their stats at the same age or after the same number of matches. I think it's imperative we don't just play down Babar just because we are too afraid to laud our own talent who has clearly shown much more cosistency than the players we are too circumspect to compare against.
 
Yes but keep in mind that Pakistani cricketers play long atleast till 40s...
That has been the trend post 2010

Which cricketer apart from Misbah has played till his 40s?

And performances decline with age anyway. Cant become an ATG like that.
 
Which cricketer apart from Misbah has played till his 40s?

And performances decline with age anyway. Cant become an ATG like that.

While I do agree that you can't become an ATG just like that, I would like to point out that playing till at least 38-40 has become some sort of a template in the recent past. Apart from Misbah, you have Younis who played till he was 39. Hafeez at 37 and Malik at 35 will play till the 2019 WC. Then we also have Shahid Afridi, who retired at 37, but was most porbably 39-40 as well. Having said that, I do agree that performance declines with age, but here's to hoping that Haris's don't (In Sha Allah).
 
Yes I understand what you're trying to say, but on what basis can you say that he isn't better than some of the other players. Remember when we're comparing a player whose played 30 odd matches to people who have played about 80 odd, it means the main basis will be on the performance of both at the same stage of the career. Like for example, Virat Kohli, when we compare him to SRT, we compare their stats at the same age or after the same number of matches. I think it's imperative we don't just play down Babar just because we are too afraid to laud our own talent who has clearly shown much more cosistency than the players we are too circumspect to compare against.

Comparing at the same stage of there careers is fine but I have seen some posters saying he is better than Root and Smith as of now which isn't the case.
 
Comparing at the same stage of there careers is fine but I have seen some posters saying he is better than Root and Smith as of now which isn't the case.

Its not as far off as you think. He already has 7 ODI 100's, Smith has 8, Williamson has 9 & Root 10.

He has done quite well.
 
Its not as far off as you think. He already has 7 ODI 100's, Smith has 8, Williamson has 9 & Root 10.

He has done quite well.

They have performed for nearly a 100 games. Babar has only played in 30 games, little too early to compare imo.
 
Not sure what you are talking about but Virat Kohli scored that amazing 133 of 80 odd balls when he was just 24. This was way before Virat started working on his fitness. The fitness thing is just over the last 2 or 3 years. He also scored that amazing 183 against Pakistan around the same time.

Those examples are correct but I'm talking about the fact that kohli himself has said that after his fitness transformation he feels sharper in the field and has enchanced his stamina and helps him play longer innings at a faster strike rate.
 
I don't think out batting has improved at all. It's just that our bowling has restricted other teams to very low totals so no pressure on the batsmen.
 
Comparing at the same stage of there careers is fine but I have seen some posters saying he is better than Root and Smith as of now which isn't the case.

Yes my bro, I agree with you on that point. We, Pakistanis, are a very emotional qoum and hence sometimes we get a little ahead of ourselves and let patriotism tint our judgement. Which isn't a wrong thing, mind you, and sth I have done myself numerous times. But this stuff usually amasses undue stress on the players.
 
I don't think out batting has improved at all. It's just that our bowling has restricted other teams to very low totals so no pressure on the batsmen.

tbh, your batting has improved definitely, though its not become the best as a couple of posters have claimed.

Thing is Fakhar Zaman has been a like for like replacement for Sharjeel, so no change there.

But, Babar has definitely added a sense of stability in the middle order which will help when chasing medium sized totals or setting just below par (5% below par) scores. If you could have a couple more flamboyant batsmen at 7 and 8 then you would reach par totals consistent basis. This is a significant improvement than where you were this time last year.

Even currently, your bowling (namely Hasan Ali) is good enough to defend slightly below par totals.
 
We need more attacking players, we are too dependent on Fakher Zaman for good fast starts and our bowlers
 
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