Has Ravichandran Ashwin surpassed Anil Kumble and Harbhajan Singh as the best ever Indian spinner?

[jnaveen1980]

Average under 25 . i never expected any Indian bowler to achieve this in my life time. 59 tests 7 man of the series awards. Highest by an Indian. Should have been 8. But they went with Kohli. Second best Sehwag 5 man of the series in 103 tests, Sachin 5 man of the series in 200 tests. In Contrast Kumble 4 man of the series in 132 tests, Harbhanan 4 man of the series in 103 tests.

 

[BD-fan]

Action was questionable for a period of time. Still Kumble is ahead to me.

 

[BlackShadow]

As a Cricketer, he is ahead of Kumble. As a bowler, not yet, but on his way for sure.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Action was questionable for a period of time. Still Kumble is ahead to me.

Duh what lol he mocked other chuckers by trying to imitate chucking action. His action was always clean. He was the one spinner who was openly against chuckers.

 

[Sam99]

He may never succeed in Australia, and that says more about Aussie tracks than Ashwin in my opinion.

Lyon should get more ratings for picking most wickets in aus even after being off spinner imo.

 

[BD-fan]

Duh what lol he mocked other chuckers by trying to imitate chucking action. His action was always clean. He was the one spinner who was openly against chuckers.

I am not here to derail this thread but before your time....
http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...win-be-reported-in-this-Test&highlight=ashwin

Post #27 visual.
Read Post #94, #97.
Heck in your free time read the whole thread. It is amusing. By the way, I didn't post any in that thread.

 

[cricketjoshila]

I am not here to derail this thread but before your time....
http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...win-be-reported-in-this-Test&highlight=ashwin

Post #27 visual.
Read Post #94, #97.
Heck in your free time read the whole thread. It is amusing. By the way, I didn't post any in that thread.

Yes read that thread and see how consipracy theories are demolished.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Definately better than Bhajji. But still some distance behind Kumble.

 

[New Yorker]

Definately better than Bhajji. But still some distance behind Kumble.

The only thing Kumble has on Ashwin is longevity. Kumble needed 132 Tests to take 8 10fers, Ashwin has 7 in just 59. Ashwin has superior Ave, superior SR, was faster to 100 wickets, 200 wickets, better stats than Kumble in a number of countries, including England, if not Australia. By the time Ashwin retires he will be the best Indian spinner by far.

 

[Hasan123]

Better than Harbajahan but has a while to pass Kumble.

 

[jnaveen1980]

The only thing Kumble has on Ashwin is longevity. Kumble needed 132 Tests to take 8 10fers, Ashwin has 7 in just 59. Ashwin has superior Ave, superior SR, was faster to 100 wickets, 200 wickets, better stats than Kumble in a number of countries, including England, if not Australia. By the time Ashwin retires he will be the best Indian spinner by far.

I agree. Reason is not that he is not good. During the 90s India produced one of the worst designer pitches to improve their win record. Most of the pitches where he bowled were minefields. Ashwin didn't get that luxury. HE got assistance. But not the level of Kumble got in the 90s.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Also if you look at the 90s Kumble had hardly any bowler to share his wickets. On those pitches he just needs some random bowler to bowl at the other end. With Ashwin , Jaddu is sharing bunch of wickets.

 

[The_Odd_One]

It doesn't take much to surpass Kumble who averaged like 37 outside India.

Ashwin is easily the best spinner India has produced in the last 30 years. He's the biggest match winner for India alongside Kohli.

 

[jagatk]

Also if you look at the 90s Kumble had hardly any bowler to share his wickets. On those pitches he just needs some random bowler to bowl at the other end. With Ashwin , Jaddu is sharing bunch of wickets.

It goes both ways though, jadeja creates pressure for ashwin to work with and ashwin does the same. For kumble for most of his career, he had little help, kumble had to do everything.

 

[New Yorker]

It goes both ways though, jadeja creates pressure for ashwin to work with and ashwin does the same. For kumble for most of his career, he had little help, kumble had to do everything.

This test was a good example then of how good Ashwin can be even when bowling without much support.

 

[Slog]

350 Test wickets!

 

[tyron_woodley]

I agree. Reason is not that he is not good. During the 90s India produced one of the worst designer pitches to improve their win record. Most of the pitches where he bowled were minefields. Ashwin didn't get that luxury. HE got assistance. But not the level of Kumble got in the 90s.

designer pitches?? every team doctors the pitch to suit their team's needs. Australia does the same with flat high bouncy wickets.

s.africa are kings of doctoring pitches to suit their bowling.

I agree though. India produces good sporting pitches post 2000 but ocassionaly there has been minefields like pune test which actually backfired lol.

 

[Bhaijaan]

He's even surpassed Shane Warne and Muralitharan.

As of now he's the GOAT

Having said that Jumbo, Warnh and Murali have longevity in their side.

 

[jnaveen1980]

designer pitches?? every team doctors the pitch to suit their team's needs. Australia does the same with flat high bouncy wickets.

s.africa are kings of doctoring pitches to suit their bowling.

I agree though. India produces good sporting pitches post 2000 but ocassionaly there has been minefields like pune test which actually backfired lol.

Let me refresh the memory. In the 1990s Azaharuddin was losing left and right. Right after disasterous OZ tour, world cup, SA tour the then Manager and Azharuddin came up with this idea of designer pitch. basically Kumble, an offie and a left armer (it could be anybody). Chauhan, Raju, Nikil chopra, Bahutule, Rahul Sangvi. Each ball would be like leaping cobra. Guys like gatting, Robin Smith, Gooch were clueless on those pitches. India clean swept England, Srilanka. It was basically an effort to save their a**. This strategy was employed for non-Asian teams and inexperienced test sides like SL, Zimbabwe. Against Pakistan in 1999 pitches were normal as Pakistan as spin was not exactly their weakness back then. First time in a long time i saw a good competitive pitch was in 2000/01 series at the famous Eden Gardens Test. A genuinely true wicket which offered ab it of something for everybody.

 

[Mesozoic]

He was always better than Harbhajan.

And If he plays as long as Kumble did, he'll be there no doubt as India's best ever spinner.

 

[tyron_woodley]

Let me refresh the memory. In the 1990s Azaharuddin was losing left and right. Right after disasterous OZ tour, world cup, SA tour the then Manager and Azharuddin came up with this idea of designer pitch. basically Kumble, an offie and a left armer (it could be anybody). Chauhan, Raju, Nikil chopra, Bahutule, Rahul Sangvi. Each ball would be like leaping cobra. Guys like gatting, Robin Smith, Gooch were clueless on those pitches. India clean swept England, Srilanka. It was basically an effort to save their a**. This strategy was employed for non-Asian teams and inexperienced test sides like SL, Zimbabwe. Against Pakistan in 1999 pitches were normal as Pakistan as spin was not exactly their weakness back then. First time in a long time i saw a good competitive pitch was in 2000/01 series at the famous Eden Gardens Test. A genuinely true wicket which offered ab it of something for everybody.

I don't deny that but what's wrong with designer pitches to suit ur team.

Every team does it.

 

[Last Monetarist]

Let me refresh the memory. In the 1990s Azaharuddin was losing left and right. Right after disasterous OZ tour, world cup, SA tour the then Manager and Azharuddin came up with this idea of designer pitch. basically Kumble, an offie and a left armer (it could be anybody). Chauhan, Raju, Nikil chopra, Bahutule, Rahul Sangvi. Each ball would be like leaping cobra. Guys like gatting, Robin Smith, Gooch were clueless on those pitches. India clean swept England, Srilanka. It was basically an effort to save their a**. This strategy was employed for non-Asian teams and inexperienced test sides like SL, Zimbabwe. Against Pakistan in 1999 pitches were normal as Pakistan as spin was not exactly their weakness back then. First time in a long time i saw a good competitive pitch was in 2000/01 series at the famous Eden Gardens Test. A genuinely true wicket which offered ab it of something for everybody.

Disagree about the Eden Gardens pitch in 2001 being the first competitive pitch produced in India during that period. There was nothing fundamentally different between that wicket and the one produced for the test against South Africa in 1996 (Donald and Klusener got plenty of help, batsmen were able to play their shots, and there was help for spinners too), or the pitch produced for the game against Pakistan in 1999. The ex-curator at the Eden Gardens, Prabhin Mukherjee, was always been given a great deal of independence to produce the kind of wickets he wanted across his tenure. He got into a strop with Dhoni in 2012 because he refused to provide designer pitches.

 

[tyron_woodley]

again nothing wrong with designer pitches????

every team can tailor the pitches at home.

 

[MenInG]

Veteran India off-spinner Ravichandran Ashwin suffered a serious injury during Delhi Capitals’ first game of the ongoing season of Indian Premier League against Kings XI Punjab in Dubai on Sunday. The off-spinner, who made a move from KXIP to DC after last season, started off his stint with DC on a high, picking up two wickets in his first over itself.

Delhi captain Shreyas Iyer gave Ashwin the ball in the 5th over of the innings, and on the first ball itself, the Tamil Nadu bowler sent back Karun Nair to the pavilion. Ashwin teased Nair with a slow delivery, and the batsman went for a big shot on the leg-side, but could not connect. The top edge went high in the air and Prithvi Shaw completed a good catch at short fine-leg.

Three deliveries later, Ashwin cleaned up the dangerous Nicholas Pooran with a stunner. The bowler tossed it between middle and leg, and the ball held its line and castled the stumps as Pooran looked to offer a defensive shot.

But on the final delivery of the over, Ashwin tried to dive to save a single from Glenn Maxwell’s shot. But while diving, Ashwin’s left shoulder hit hard on the turf, and he lay in pain on the ground after that.

Ashwin, visibly looking in pain, and his shoulder being supported by the medical staff, went back to the pavilion immediately afterwards for treatment. An official word on Ashwin’s injury is still being awaited.

Delhi Capitals were asked to bat first by Kings XI Punjab captain KL Rahul and they posted 157/8 in 20 overs, courtesy of a brisk fifty by Marcus Stoinis.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/cric...off-injured/story-w0Dpnib6oxtFOTU5YHMJRM.html

 

[sweep_shot]

No. Ashwin hasn't surpassed Bhajji or Kumble.

Kumble is possibly the best Indian spinner of all time.

 

[shamaan]

Ashwin doesnt even come close to singh or kumble

 

[tyron_woodley]

ashwin is better than kumble and bhaji easily. way better.

 

[sweep_shot]

ashwin is better than kumble and bhaji easily. way better.

How? Kumble has like 600 Test wickets.

Bhajji dominated against ATG Aussie team.

 

[andy0204]

For me Bedi and Chandrashekhar are the best spinners of India.

 

[sweep_shot]

For me Bedi and Chandrashekhar are the best spinners of India.

Possible. Never seen them live. But, Kumble is the best Indian spinner statistically (600+ Test wickets, 10 wickets in an innings etc.).

 

[Hitman]

For me Bedi and Chandrashekhar are the best spinners of India.

Agree with Bedi.

 

[Slog]

His career kinda derailed few years ago. Don’t get why

 

[tyron_woodley]

ashwin is better than kumble and bhaji easily. way better.

depends on conditions. in subcontinent I would back ashwin. Away from home in SENA probably kumble

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

First of all, Harbhajan singh is not even amongst the top 6 indian spinners.
Ashwin is better than bhajji.

Top 6 (not in order)
Bedi
Kumble
Chandra
Ashwin
Gupte
Prasanna

 

[therealAB]

How? Kumble has like 600 Test wickets.

Bhajji dominated against ATG Aussie team.

Bhajji was Qadir level incompetent overseas

 

[tyron_woodley]

jadeja should be in the conversation too. I don't care what you say, jaddu bhai is a stud. He is a phenomenal cricketer. clutch player. Pure match winner in sub continent. Good away from.home too.

 

[ShoonyaSifar]

No way. Ashwin's own pathetic performances in SENA and Jadeja's performance at home in the last 3-4 years has put Ashwin's home record in perspective. Each poor away series is a nail in Ashwin's reputation, who with his current record will be remembered at best as a HTB or spinning conditions bully. His batting has gone down drastically else he could still have built a reputation as an allrounder in away tests (which he once was fully capable of) and not the lead spinner.

Hypothetically, if Ashwin was not to be available for a home series vs a top side,don't think India will miss him much. Kuldeep, Shahbaz Nadeem, even Jayant Yadav or Krishnappa Gowtham - any of these guys will team up with Jaddu to successfully lead our bowling attack.

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

Bowled well against Australia today.

 

[NauV]

So so impressed by Ashwin! I remember when Ashwin and Yasir were toe to toe . . dominating in their home matches . . bucketing wickets and taking five-fors for fun! and both struggling away from home . .

However, Yasir has stayed where he was (maybe even regressed), whereas Ashwin has clearly improved immensely away from home! Had a good tour of England and Australia previously as well . . though, India have preferred to play Jadeja over Ashwin in overseas games, the improvement is quite stark!

Unfortunate that his overall results will not show that because of his incredible dominance at home! but he has definitely come leaps and bounds!

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Ashwin was absolutely outstanding today. Ran through Australia's middle order and most importantly, got the all important wicket of Smith, against whom he has an abysmal record.

The only thing stopping him from being called the greatest spinner of his generation is his record in SENA. He has taken an important first step in rectifying that today.

 

[Bhaijaan]

Bowled well. Respect

 

[shah_1]

Legendary bowler

 

[Slog]

Can’t believe he is already 34. Time flies

Hopefully he gets to 450 wickets

 

[Slog]

The great thing about him is the willingness to learn and adapt. He saw his bowling style did not fit in SENA so he spent lot of time thinking about his bowling and how he can be a better bowler in these countries. Back to back county stints.

The great thing is that he thinks about his bowling rather than mindlessly going through the motions.

 

[tyron_woodley]

Can’t believe he is already 34. Time flies

Hopefully he gets to 450 wickets

Bro spinners can play till 37 lol.
India will need to replace them. It's going to be hard. Jaddu and Ashwin are match winners.

We do have some talent coming up though.

 

[WhenSultansBowled]

It is unfair to compare Harbhajan / Ashwin to Kumble.

Despite stats etc. Kumble had a clean action and rarely had such spin friendly wickets.

Also, in my opinion Kumble played against better players of spin.

 

[Slog]

It is unfair to compare Harbhajan / Ashwin to Kumble.

Despite stats etc. Kumble had a clean action and rarely had such spin friendly wickets.

Also, in my opinion Kumble played against better players of spin.

Ashwin has one of the cleanest actions there is. It’s Pakistani fantasy to cast doubt on him because of the troubles Ajmal faced.

Harbhajan definitely did not have a clean action. Ashwin did

 

[WhenSultansBowled]

Ashwin has one of the cleanest actions there is. It’s Pakistani fantasy to cast doubt on him because of the troubles Ajmal faced.

Harbhajan definitely did not have a clean action. Ashwin did

Until he is tested there will be a question mark. Maybe people like me are wrong, maybe not. A test could shut critics up.

 

[Slog]

Until he is tested there will be a question mark. Maybe people like me are wrong, maybe not. A test could shut critics up.

No it won’t shut you up. Because you will then bring up some conspiracy theory after he passes that “Tests are rigged since ICC=BCCI.”

Besides bowlers won’t be tested simply because a random fans think he is chucking. Otherwise every international bowler will need to be tested due to salty opposition fans.

 

[AamchiMumbaikar]

Ash action is clean. Bhajji was probably not.

Anyway he has bowled well so far this match. Respect!

 

[DRsohail]

I just checked the record, kumle has 141 wicekts in SENA in 35 tests, while Ashwin has 70 in 24 tests, shows ashwinwas selectively used despite that Kumble has better overseas average, I think Kumble win.

 

[DRsohail]

Plus his action was clear , Ashwin bowling acti is doubtful too.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Plus his action was clear , Ashwin bowling acti is doubtful too.

When was Ashwin called for chucking?

 

[Mesozoic]

I just checked the record, kumle has 141 wicekts in SENA in 35 tests, while Ashwin has 70 in 24 tests, shows ashwinwas selectively used despite that Kumble has better overseas average, I think Kumble win.

While Ashwin hasn't been that good in SENA barring a few series', it's easy to forget the fact that Kumble got benefited by having to bowl with a mediocre pace attack. He used to have a lot of 5/140, 6/176 type outings with a whole lot of soft wickets.

Ashwin for the last 5 years has been bowling alongside a gun Indian fast bowling attack and had a lot of "decent" support acts. And when you consider his batting too, it's a no-brainer that most teams would want an Ashwin over Kumble even outside the SC.

 

[Mesozoic]

When was Ashwin called for chucking?

It's futile to even ask.

There's a reason why Pakistani fans are the only ones that seem to constant question the bowling actions of Ashwin and Bumrah..

 

[Pakhs]

When was Ashwin called for chucking?

All offspin bowler actions are slightly doubtful compare to leg spin bowlers. I dont think there is much wrong with his action personally.

 

[Pakhs]

It's futile to even ask.

There's a reason why Pakistani fans are the only ones that seem to constant question the bowling actions of Ashwin and Bumrah..

Who is questioning Bumrah action? Bumrah action is dodgy in terms how unusual its but he does not throw I dont think you can with that action.

 

[Pakhs]

Coming back to the original question I believe Kumble is probably just ahead as on average he bowled on less turners than Ashwin.

 

[Mesozoic]

Who is questioning Bumrah action?Bumrah action is dodgy in terms how unusual its but he does not throw I dont think you can with that action.

Please check the Hasnain thread.

 

[Mesozoic]

All offspin bowler actions are slightly doubtful compare to leg spin bowlers. I dont think there is much wrong with his action personally.

And why the need to compare with leg spinners. It's physically impossible for a wrist spinner to chuck so even a clean fast bowler with an over head action would look "doubtful" when you compare with wrist spinners.

 

[jeetu]

Indian Spinners Away test record (min 50 wickets)
[table=class: grid, align: center]
[tr][td]Player [/td][td]Span [/td][td]Mat [/td][td]Wkts [/td][td]Ave [/td][td]Econ [/td][td]SR [/td][td]5W [/td][td]10W [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]SP Gupte [/td][td]1953-1959 [/td][td]15 [/td][td]65 [/td][td]28.52 [/td][td]2.3 [/td][td]74.4 [/td][td]6 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]R Ashwin [/td][td]2011-2022 [/td][td]34 [/td][td]126 [/td][td]31.88 [/td][td]2.93 [/td][td]65.2 [/td][td]6 [/td][td]1 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]B Chandrasekhar [/td][td]1967-1979 [/td][td]26 [/td][td]100 [/td][td]32.66 [/td][td]2.89 [/td][td]67.7 [/td][td]8 [/td][td]1 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]RA Jadeja [/td][td]2013-2021 [/td][td]22 [/td][td]69 [/td][td]33.56 [/td][td]2.75 [/td][td]73.2 [/td][td]2 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]B Bedi [/td][td]1967-1979 [/td][td]37 [/td][td]129 [/td][td]33.72 [/td][td]2.37 [/td][td]85 [/td][td]6 [/td][td]1 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]EAS Prasanna [/td][td]1962-1978 [/td][td]27 [/td][td]94 [/td][td]33.85 [/td][td]2.49 [/td][td]81.4 [/td][td]5 [/td][td]1 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]A Kumble [/td][td]1990-2008 [/td][td]69 [/td][td]269 [/td][td]35.85 [/td][td]2.88 [/td][td]74.5 [/td][td]10 [/td][td]1 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Harbhajan Singh [/td][td]1998-2015 [/td][td]48 [/td][td]152 [/td][td]38.9 [/td][td]3.06 [/td][td]76.2 [/td][td]7 [/td][td]1 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]MH Mankad [/td][td]1946-1955 [/td][td]21 [/td][td]59 [/td][td]42.42 [/td][td]2.17 [/td][td]117.2 [/td][td]4 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]RJ Shastri [/td][td]1981-1992 [/td][td]42 [/td][td]78 [/td][td]42.85 [/td][td]2.42 [/td][td]106.1 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]S Venkataraghavan [/td][td]1967-1983 [/td][td]25 [/td][td]62 [/td][td]44.4 [/td][td]2.5 [/td][td]106.4 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[/table]

 

[DRsohail]

While Ashwin hasn't been that good in SENA barring a few series', it's easy to forget the fact that Kumble got benefited by having to bowl with a mediocre pace attack. He used to have a lot of 5/140, 6/176 type outings with a whole lot of soft wickets.

Ashwin for the last 5 years has been bowling alongside a gun Indian fast bowling attack and had a lot of "decent" support acts. And when you consider his batting too, it's a no-brainer that most teams would want an Ashwin over Kumble even outside the SC.

It can be said the other way around, Kimble did not get the support on the other end whil Ashwin did get, despite that he did well, .

 

[DRsohail]

It's futile to even ask.

There's a reason why Pakistani fans are the only ones that seem to constant question the bowling actions of Ashwin and Bumrah..

He is probably a border like chucker but who cares.

 

[DRsohail]

When was Ashwin called for chucking?

He can throw at times will never be called for.its ok but he ***** that's what I think, you may disagree.

 

[Ab Fan]

Ashwin is a home bully and a condition specific bowler but it is hillarious to claim that he is by any means a chucker lol.

On thread, Kumble is much better. He has a 8-fer against the greatest batting lineup of all-time in their backyard in 2003 Sydney test. With more support from bowlers, that would have been a match and series winning performance from Kumble. He also has great performances in South Africa too.

Ashwin is a joke in SENA conditions, producing one or two good performances and zero fi-fers tells us all we have to know about him in SENA.

He was lucky that Lanka currently don't have peak Jayasuriya, Aravinda, Sangakkara, Jayawardene and Samarweera helped with a bowling support of Murali and Vaas otherwise he would have averaged 40 there also and same would have been the story against Younis Khan and co on flat dry UAE pitches.

 

[MenInG]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-partner="tweetdeck"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">&#55357;&#56787;️ <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/OnThisDay?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#OnThisDay</a> in in Perth<a href="https://twitter.com/anilkumble1074?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@anilkumble1074</a> became the first Indian bowler to claim Test Wickets &#55357;&#56399;&#55356;&#57339;&#55357;&#56399;&#55356;&#57339;<a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/TeamIndia?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#TeamIndia</a> <a href="https://t.co/Tt4CP7Li9O">pic.twitter.com/Tt4CP7Li9O</a></p>— BCCI (@BCCI) <a href="https://twitter.com/BCCI/status/1615193658990657538?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 17, 2023</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[MP2011]

What a great test match that was at WACA!