Has the Holy Quran undergone any changes in its history?

[King_Kohli]

KUALA LUMPUR: The Malaysian Consultative Council of Islamic Organization (MAPIM) was outraged by the recent report in the Dailymail by Ryan Fahey dated Dec 24 that China will rewrite the Bible and the Quran to 'reflect socialist values' amid crackdown on Muslim Uighur minority.

Its president Mohd Azmi Abd Hamid, in a statement, demanded the Chinese authorities to explain on the report.

The report depicts an outline of China's recent policy move:

1. All translated classic religious books should be "re-evaluated":

2. The new editions must not contain any content that contradicts socialism;

3. Paragraphs deemed wrong by censors will be amended or re-translated.

"We are outraged by the strings of policies against Muslims executed by China," said Mohd Azmi.

The report reveals China will rewrite the Bible and Quran to "reflect socialist values".

It stated that new editions must not contain any content that goes against the beliefs of the Communist Party, according to a top party official.

Though the Quran and Bible were not mentioned specifically, the party called for a "comprehensive evaluation of the existing religious classics aiming at contents which do not conform to the progress of the times".

The order was given in November during a meeting held by the Committee for Ethnic and Religious Affairs of the National Committee of the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference, which oversees the ethnic and religious matters in China.

According to Xinhua News Agency, a group of 16 experts, believers and representatives of different religions from the Central Committee of the Communist Party of China attended the conference last month, supervised by Wang Yang, Chairman of the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference.

He urged the officials to build a religious system with Chinese characteristics'.

They also claimed that by "re-evaluating" religious books, they would prevent "extreme thoughts" and "heretical ideas" from eroding the country.

French newspaper, Le Figaro reported that Wang stressed that religious authorities must follow President Xi's instructions and interpret the ideologies of different religions in accordance with "the core values of Socialism" and "the requirements of the era".

If the reports are true this is a clear afront to Islam and will never be tolerated, Mohd Azmi said, adding that even Christians will despise this as an intrusion of religion by the communist party.

"The re-writing of the Quran will be seen as a war against Islam and Muslims around the world will definitely stand up to rebuke this policy.

"We remind China not to cross the redline. The already massive repression of Uyghur Muslims has been heavily criticised by the international community and the Muslims will not tolerate such abusive policy to alter the most sacred text of Islam.

"We demand the truth of this report and if China refuses to respond we will follow closely if the policy will actually be implemented or the policy be revoked.

"We call again that OIC must not be silent on the plight of the Uyghur Muslims and Muslims in general in China," added Mohd Azmi.

China cannot be allowed to reign on Muslim nations by weighing down their economic muscle to silent them under the pretext of combating terrorism.

"If the re-writing and re- interpreting of the Quran to comply with socialism by the Chinese government is allowed, and OIC keeps silent on this attrocious policy, it will no longer qualify to represent Islamic nations to protect the interest of Islam and Muslims," Mohd Azmi concluded.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nst.com.my/node/550929/amp

 

[King_Kohli]

China is very very dangerous country.

 

[Ronaldo7]

Stalin's USSR (Made in China)

 

[Lonewarrior]

Idiots, some people/nation tried to rewrite Quran for thir own narrative in the past but they never ever succeed , thres a reason they failed and chinese will fail too .... its futile and bound to fail.

 

[troodon]

China is very very dangerous country.

China wants complete allegiance from its people. They know that Abrahamic faiths do not allow that. So they will try to interpret the Bible and Quran in a way that puts China over Islam or Christianity.

 

[HasanA]

and people thought Amreeka is dangerous. Americans are just using power in a mismanagement way many times but its people and many officials are for multireligious harmony but China is pure EVIL. Its time to cleanse the world of the chinese influence even if it makes things expensive. have them manufactured in Pakistan, Vietnam, Taiwan or African continent but china needs a HARD reset.

the most dangerous upcoming world powers:

1. China under Xi (aka Winnie the Pooh)
2. India under Modi

 

[SensiblePakFan]

The Quran has never been changed and will never be changed till the end of time.

 

[sweep_shot]

If Allah (SWT) protects Quran, China can't do anything. Many have tried to destroy Islam in history and they all have failed.

 

[JaDed]

Idiots, some people/nation tried to rewrite Quran for thir own narrative in the past but they never ever succeed , thres a reason they failed and chinese will fail too .... its futile and bound to fail.

It will succeed for Muslims in China, China doesn’t care about others, they just want to brainwash their local citizens at best, similar to no Google, Fb..

 

[JaDed]

Brainwashing is not a new phenomenon, nations and religions have done it.. with so much censorship within China they can do what they want, there is nothing to verify outside..

 

[Mamoon]

Not to mention Imran Khan would have tweeted about it already.

 

[JaDed]

Not to mention Imran Khan would have tweeted about it already.

Tbf except Daily Mail and Malaysian papers there is no credibility yet, may be China wanted to do it but will now deny it..and drop the plan..

 

[troodon]

If Allah (SWT) protects Quran, China can't do anything. Many have tried to destroy Islam in history and they all have failed.

Just like how Torat and Injeel were protected?

 

[sweep_shot]

Just like how Torat and Injeel were protected?

Quran has remained unchanged. Not a single dot has been changed. Quran has survived so many brutal empires. China is nothing in front of God.

 

[ElRaja]

would be a weird move by china, the quran is intrinsically an oral object, it would be near enough impossible to rewrite it and remove all hafizes, and as long as you have any hafiz around everyone will know the chinese qurans are fake.

dont think they would be dumb enough to try this knowing how much badwill it would earn from muslim countries, open antagonising isn't china's style. they like things done behind closed doors, this gets too much attention.

guessing this was someones flight of fancy and word got out, doubt its been endorsed by the powers that be.

 

[KingKhanWC]

This wont happen.

You cannot change the Quran, it's not a book.

Yet more sensationalist attacks on China.

 

[KingKhanWC]

and people thought Amreeka is dangerous. Americans are just using power in a mismanagement way many times but its people and many officials are for multireligious harmony but China is pure EVIL. Its time to cleanse the world of the chinese influence even if it makes things expensive. have them manufactured in Pakistan, Vietnam, Taiwan or African continent but china needs a HARD reset.

the most dangerous upcoming world powers:

1. China under Xi (aka Winnie the Pooh)
2. India under Modi

US policies in the last 20 years have killed millions and destroyed numerous nation and you call this mismanagement and China the evil ones. Put the pipe down.

 

[PetroDollars]

quran has not remained unchanged, it has been tampered with during times of umayad and abbaid empires and continued well after, of course muslims dont like accepting the truth when it goes against there confirmation bias, which is quite natural.

however this is what people need to realise, china is only the new wannabe super power on the block, romans, who still rule today have been doing this for over 1000 years.

 

[KingKhanWC]

quran has not remained unchanged, it has been tampered with during times of umayad and abbaid empires and continued well after, of course muslims dont like accepting the truth when it goes against there confirmation bias, which is quite natural.

however this is what people need to realise, china is only the new wannabe super power on the block, romans, who still rule today have been doing this for over 1000 years.

Ok go on , please post the verses which have changed, the dates when this change was made and some sort of evidence to back this up. Ill get he popcorn out.

 

[Technics 1210]

At best translations can change but the authentic language of the Qur'an (Arabic) is impossible to change for those who understand language and prose of Arabic.

Move along.

 

[mgtow]

Armies with huge elephants even tried to destroy Holy Kaaba where it was defenceless and still is and ALLAH sent small birds with small pebbles were enough to destroy the entire armies and made elephants revolt against their own trainers.

It will be China’s last mistake. There is reason I mentioned long time ago that as per prophecies; Islamabad will be centre of the Muslim worlds.

Little do China knows that they will be part of Muslim worlds soon, In Sha ALLAH, never mind unable to change Holy Quran. ALLAH will make it happen as ‘be’ and ‘it is’.

 

[Hornbill]

If they are serious about this then they will seize the original copies with the help of high resolution cctv cameras installed everywhere and state sponsored sleepover friends.

 

[farz88]

According to which Muslims? No scholar says this. In East or west.

The whole Quran was compiled within the year of the death of the prophet saw. And confirmed by all sources.

 

[Mamoon]

Pretty much all your comments on all threads start with favouring of India and ends with criticism of Imran Khan.

For a change why don't you stick to the topic and condemn or support China on this issue.

Someone has to call Imran out for his con-artistry and paid acting. There are plenty of Modi critics here anyway.

 

[andy0204]

No one can do that,if they do they will have to face consequences.

 

[uberkoen]

According to which Muslims? No scholar says this. In East or west.

The whole Quran was compiled within the year of the death of the prophet saw. And confirmed by all sources.

This is a silly question. The books of Hadith are filled with ahadith that talk about the corruption and missing verses of quran

 

[BreadPakoda]

The Chinese media has to confirm this. Masala story, otherwise.

Move along.

 

[Mamoon]

A lot of the missing verses and corruption in the Quran are because under Usman, the previous copies were burned because of the differences in dialect.

The process of compilation actually started under Abu Bakr but they didn’t agree on one standard dialect.

Usman chose the Quraysh dialect and obviously not every Muslim was happy about that decision.

 

[Mueez]

Quran has remained unchanged. Not a single dot has been changed. Quran has survived so many brutal empires. China is nothing in front of God.

Absolutely.

May it be secured forever. Ameen

 

[Varun]

Made in China copies of the Quran?

Chala toh chand tak
Warna shyam tak

Pun intended.

 

[Robert]

This wont happen.

You cannot change the Quran, it's not a book.

Or course you can. The Bible has been edited many times and people forget the original text over time as it dies with them. Though the Gospels are already socialistic so I don’t know why China would bother.

 

[HasanA]

The Chinese media has to confirm this. Masala story, otherwise.

Move along.

you trust state propoganda?

 

[Hermoine Green]

Made in China copies of the Quran?

Chala toh chand tak
Warna shyam tak

Pun intended.

What is Shyam?

 

[Hermoine Green]

Someone has to call Imran out for his con-artistry and paid acting. There are plenty of Modi critics here anyway.

Lots of threads about it and and i would like to welcome you there, and am pretty sure as always you will be running away from all those threads.

 

[Varun]

What is Shyam?

Evening.

The entire phrase is a jab at Chinese-made electronic products.

 

[miandadrules]

Idiots, some people/nation tried to rewrite Quran for thir own narrative in the past but they never ever succeed , thres a reason they failed and chinese will fail too .... its futile and bound to fail.

There are differences between the hafs and warsh versions that are currently in circulation.

 

[barah_admi]

So basically it means you would have loved it if it was India and Nawaz may be

Mamoon would have been buying those Indian copies

 

[KingKhanWC]

Or course you can. The Bible has been edited many times and people forget the original text over time as it dies with them. Though the Gospels are already socialistic so I don’t know why China would bother.

lol. The Quran is NOT a book, which you ignored. It's an oral recitation with millions around the world able to recite each word to perfect accuracy from start to finish. You can write the Quran in a book format and change some words but it will be clearly known to be false. You should try learning instead of guessing.

Not sure why my earlier post was deleted but we have proof the Quran has not changed. The Birmingham library has the oldest Quran(written down) radiocarbon dated to between 568 and 645 CE. It is exactly the same as we have today, which proves it hasn't changed at all. There are ignorant Muslims too I can see on this thread who think their own God lied. lol.

 

[last_knight]

lol. There are ignorant Muslims too I can see on this thread who think their own God lied. lol.

Logic is always free from fashion. Some people add fashion to logic, a combination that is always a disaster.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Logic is always free from fashion. Some people add fashion to logic, a combination that is always a disaster.

Most on here are social outcasts and need some type of attention otherwise it makes no sense for a Muslim to still believe if he/she thinks the Quran is not the word of God.

 

[Justcrazy]

Quran cannot be changed . Its not impossible.

 

[troodon]

There are differences between the hafs and warsh versions that are currently in circulation.

I have read somewhere that Hafs was a fraud. But somehow his recitation of Quran was accepted.

 

[Hermoine Green]

Quran cannot be changed . Its not impossible.

Ammh..what?

 

[Abdullah719]

I have read somewhere that Hafs was a fraud. But somehow his recitation of Quran was accepted.

I can imagine where you may have read that...

 

[Waleed93]

The Quran can't be changed. It's literally impossible.

 

[Robert]

lol. The Quran is NOT a book, which you ignored. It's an oral recitation with millions around the world able to recite each word to perfect accuracy from start to finish. You can write the Quran in a book format and change some words but it will be clearly known to be false. You should try learning instead of guessing.

Not sure why my earlier post was deleted but we have proof the Quran has not changed. The Birmingham library has the oldest Quran(written down) radiocarbon dated to between 568 and 645 CE. It is exactly the same as we have today, which proves it hasn't changed at all. There are ignorant Muslims too I can see on this thread who think their own God lied. lol.

But weren’t there a number of Arabic dialects at the time? How do you know the right one got written down? In which case, how do you know modern Muslims are making the same recitation as the Prophet?

Isn’t said Birmingham copy just two pages? And haven’t the two pages got dotted verse endings which were not written into the original copies?

 

[miandadrules]

lol. The Quran is NOT a book, which you ignored. It's an oral recitation with millions around the world able to recite each word to perfect accuracy from start to finish. You can write the Quran in a book format and change some words but it will be clearly known to be false. You should try learning instead of guessing.

Not sure why my earlier post was deleted but we have proof the Quran has not changed. The Birmingham library has the oldest Quran(written down) radiocarbon dated to between 568 and 645 CE. It is exactly the same as we have today, which proves it hasn't changed at all. There are ignorant Muslims too I can see on this thread who think their own God lied. lol.

What about the Saana palimpsest?

 

[miandadrules]

I have read somewhere that Hafs was a fraud. But somehow his recitation of Quran was accepted.

I haven’t read enough in to it, to comment. But I don’t think it adds anything to the underlying discussion i.e. the preservation of the Quran.

 

[miandadrules]

I think even under the traditional Islamic narrative, there is the possibility that Umar stamped his personality on the Quran.

Umar was regarded as the most authoritarian and “right wing” of the companions according to Islamic tradition.

 

[KingKhanWC]

But weren’t there a number of Arabic dialects at the time? How do you know the right one got written down? In which case, how do you know modern Muslims are making the same recitation as the Prophet?

Isn’t said Birmingham copy just two pages? And haven’t the two pages got dotted verse endings which were not written into the original copies?

There are many Qurans from the 7th century, all are exactly the same as the one we have today. Again, it's a recitation and the language is so unique even a child can memorise it and millions have. This is unique to any other 'book' of faith, the bible has tens of thousands of errors.

Dialects make no difference, the words and meanings cannot be changed as even a small change can be spotted. Muslims recite the Quran daily in their prayers.

 

[Technics 1210]

But weren’t there a number of Arabic dialects at the time? How do you know the right one got written down? In which case, how do you know modern Muslims are making the same recitation as the Prophet?

Isn’t said Birmingham copy just two pages? And haven’t the two pages got dotted verse endings which were not written into the original copies?

I don't think you understand, and I would go as far as saying 99% of Muslims are clueless in this regard.

What do you think convinced the people at the time the Qur'an was the word of God? It was not the stories in the Qur'an, given many of the stories found in the Qur'an are also found in the Torah and Bible. It was the language and the prose of the Qur'an which convinced people (Arabs at the time) the Qur'an is the word of God.

During the time of revelation, Arabs were masters at poetry, but then comes the Qur'an revelation. The language and prose was so far advanced that Arabs couldn't even conceive the language and the prose. The recitation is not only rich in content, but is 100% rhythmic.

Any change in the language/prose breaks the rhythm of the Qur'an and it is for this reason the Qur'an cannot be altered in Arabic. The moment a single word/letter changes, the rhythm is broken, and this signals the Qur'an has been altered. This is how the Qur'an is preserved.

The Qur'an mentions how the Bible and Torah have been altered hence God revealed the Qur'an.

The very rhythm and prose of the Qur'an means the Qur'an can be memorised - thus there was no need to tabulate the revelation. Once in memory, there is no way to alter Qur'an.

Many have tried and failed to produce a single verse like that of the Qur'an.

The language and prose convinced people at the time that the Qur'an is the infallible word of God, and to add, previous scriptures such as the Bible/torah are confirmed through the rich language, prose, and rhythm of the Qur'an.

So people can alter the translation, but it is impossible to alter the Qur'an in Arabic without breaking the rhythm.

 

[mgtow]

Quran cannot be changed . Its not impossible.

That is the only argument they have that they can be changed because they know Islam hasn’t changed ever since 1400 years ago revealed to Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W).

As for the future, only Muslims know by heart and by faith that Holy Quran will remain the unchanged till the judgement day.

Because Holy Quran is the truth - exact words of ALLAH with no opinion of Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W). It is all straight from ALLAH which to this day hasn’t challenged never mind unchanged.

Verily, the words of ALLAH will fall on deaf ears - very those who are still blind despite the working eyes. No point wasting our time with those whose hearts are sealed until ALLAH permits.

 

[Musakhel]

Shites often accuse uthman and other companion of tampering with the Quran, and there books are littered with this, same argument that non muslims use, but the Quran was preserved through memorization of the earliest muslims, even if you remove the written book, the Quran is preserved through memorisation by the masses, and The statement Of Allah is certainly true When he says He has made the Quran easy to memorize.

 

[Ahmed4472]

Shites often accuse uthman and other companion of tampering with the Quran, and there books are littered with this, same argument that non muslims use, but the Quran was preserved through memorization of the earliest muslims, even if you remove the written book, the Quran is preserved through memorisation by the masses, and The statement Of Allah is certainly true When he says He has made the Quran easy to memorize.

Not the mainstream Shites, but yes there is a small sect who do the accusation of changing/deleting chapters of Quran. They claim Naa'uzbilla that Ali(R.A) was the actual person to ascend to prophethood but Jibrael(A.S) was mistaken and he gave it to Muhammad(SAW). That sect is not even considered muslim by Shites or Sunnis.

 

[Bhaijaan]

Has Tweetu Sultan tweeted anything on it yet?

GoP's silence on these issues related to China is quite shameful. I wonder with what authority they often speak against the Arabs warming up to Indians when they can't be honest about China's atrocities on muslims.

 

[Robert]

I don't think you understand, and I would go as far as saying 99% of Muslims are clueless in this regard.

What do you think convinced the people at the time the Qur'an was the word of God? It was not the stories in the Qur'an, given many of the stories found in the Qur'an are also found in the Torah and Bible. It was the language and the prose of the Qur'an which convinced people (Arabs at the time) the Qur'an is the word of God.

During the time of revelation, Arabs were masters at poetry, but then comes the Qur'an revelation. The language and prose was so far advanced that Arabs couldn't even conceive the language and the prose. The recitation is not only rich in content, but is 100% rhythmic.

Any change in the language/prose breaks the rhythm of the Qur'an and it is for this reason the Qur'an cannot be altered in Arabic. The moment a single word/letter changes, the rhythm is broken, and this signals the Qur'an has been altered. This is how the Qur'an is preserved.

The Qur'an mentions how the Bible and Torah have been altered hence God revealed the Qur'an.

The very rhythm and prose of the Qur'an means the Qur'an can be memorised - thus there was no need to tabulate the revelation. Once in memory, there is no way to alter Qur'an.

Many have tried and failed to produce a single verse like that of the Qur'an.

The language and prose convinced people at the time that the Qur'an is the infallible word of God, and to add, previous scriptures such as the Bible/torah are confirmed through the rich language, prose, and rhythm of the Qur'an.

So people can alter the translation, but it is impossible to alter the Qur'an in Arabic without breaking the rhythm.

So you are saying that the Qu’ran crystallised Arabic, in the same way that the King James Bible crystallised English a thousand years later?

I don’t understand how changing one word changes the flow of the poetry as this is quite possible in English, but then I only speak English and am not a linguist so will have to take your word for it.

But surely if 99% of Muslims don’t get this either, surely it is possible to change the text by flooding the world with changed copies and suppressing the 1% who would notice?

 

[Technics 1210]

So you are saying that the Qu’ran crystallised Arabic, in the same way that the King James Bible crystallised English a thousand years later?

I don’t understand how changing one word changes the flow of the poetry as this is quite possible in English, but then I only speak English and am not a linguist so will have to take your word for it.

But surely if 99% of Muslims don’t get this either, surely it is possible to change the text by flooding the world with changed copies and suppressing the 1% who would notice?

The Bible was originally tabulated/revealed in Aramaic language; the King's James' bible is in English. The Qur'an was revealed in Arabic and remains in Arabic.

Flow and Rhythm are 2 distinct characteristics. Flow can be maintained by adding/deleting syllables/words, rhythm on the other hand is like changing the number of bars/groove. Imaging your favourite song shifting from 4/4 to a 3/4 bars during a chorus, you would know instantly something is not right.

All I am saying is that it was the language and prose that convinced people at the time the Qur'an is the word of god. 99% muslims today are unaware of this fact.

 

[Mamoon]

I don't think you understand, and I would go as far as saying 99% of Muslims are clueless in this regard.

What do you think convinced the people at the time the Qur'an was the word of God? It was not the stories in the Qur'an, given many of the stories found in the Qur'an are also found in the Torah and Bible. It was the language and the prose of the Qur'an which convinced people (Arabs at the time) the Qur'an is the word of God.

During the time of revelation, Arabs were masters at poetry, but then comes the Qur'an revelation. The language and prose was so far advanced that Arabs couldn't even conceive the language and the prose. The recitation is not only rich in content, but is 100% rhythmic.

Any change in the language/prose breaks the rhythm of the Qur'an and it is for this reason the Qur'an cannot be altered in Arabic. The moment a single word/letter changes, the rhythm is broken, and this signals the Qur'an has been altered. This is how the Qur'an is preserved.

The Qur'an mentions how the Bible and Torah have been altered hence God revealed the Qur'an.

The very rhythm and prose of the Qur'an means the Qur'an can be memorised - thus there was no need to tabulate the revelation. Once in memory, there is no way to alter Qur'an.

Many have tried and failed to produce a single verse like that of the Qur'an.

The language and prose convinced people at the time that the Qur'an is the infallible word of God, and to add, previous scriptures such as the Bible/torah are confirmed through the rich language, prose, and rhythm of the Qur'an.

So people can alter the translation, but it is impossible to alter the Qur'an in Arabic without breaking the rhythm.

This is the typical lazy and unintelligent argument used to prove that Quran is the word of God.

The Quran is not easy to memorize. Any book can be memorized if you practice. The reason why almost every Muslim has learned several verses by heart is because of repeated learning during their childhood years.

Anything part of your Long-term memory cannot be altered. That is why it is part of your long-term memory. I can recall some of the verses of Quran just like I can recall Baa Baa Black Sheep, Humpty Dumpty and Wheels on the Bus even though it has been decades since I have read them.

As I said, long-term memory cannot be altered but it can be forgotten. It is actually still there but you are unable to recall them. That is why quite a few Hafiz-e-Quran forget some of the verses when they don’t rehearse regularly.

Secondly, the quality of Arabic and prose is no proof that it is the word of God. Look at the works of high fantasy authors like Tolkien and Martin. When you read LOTR and ASOIAF, it is hard to believe that a human mind is capable of such imagination.

Not only have they created new worlds, new religions, new cultures etc., in Tolkien’s case, he has constructed new languages with proper grammar rules. A normal person cannot construct five words.

Had they written their work 2,000 years ago and declared it the word of God where He described a different world that He created, thousands of people would have believed him.

The invention of religions and the occurrences has stopped with the advent of modern science and technology. Moses could convince his people in 1350 BCE that he turned his stick into a snake but people cannot do it in 2019.

Similarly, Jesus could walk on water then but no one can do it now. Someone will upload his video on YouTube and it will be exposed as a hoax.

Abraham was ready to slaughter his son because God ordered him to do so, but if someone does that today he will end up in an asylum.

There are two main reasons why so many people of Prophet Muhammad’s time believed that Quran is the word.

(1) the source
(2) the message

The source, i.e. Prophet Muhammad, was considered a man of great integrity and honor long before he declared himself as the final messenger of God. He was trustworthy and no one considered him to be a liar, and thus, when he declared his prophethood, a lot of his close companions and other people immediately joined him because they had the conviction that he would never lie and is not someone who is interested in power and glory.

If he did not have that reputation, his companions would have been far ore skeptical in accepting his message.

The message, i.e. the teachings of the Quran. In a society where the disparity between the rich and the poor was immense, slavery was widespread and baby girls were buried alive, a man preaching equality and declaring that in God’s eyes a master is no better than his slave, the message of Quran was very attractive and uplifting for the destitute, the oppressed and the slaves of that society.

Someone like Bilal, the slave of Umayyah was not attracted to the Quran because of the standard of Arabic and the prose; he was attracted to the Quran because it was an opportunity for him to escape slavery.

That is why the majority of the initial followers were either close friends/relatives of the Prophet or people at the lowest rung of the society. These poor people couldn’t even read and hence were not in a position to be convinced by the Arabic and prose of the Quran.

The chieftains who were masters of poetry were not attracted by the Quran because it challenged their status and superiority in the society. The masters did not want to be on equal footing with their slaves and the sons did not want to be equal to the daughters. That is why the opposed this new religion that promoted equality.

The success and failure of any new religion was largely dependent on the social construct of the time. That is why almost every prophet/messenger appealed more to the poor and oppressed people of the time, because the religion is not only about the afterlife but it is also an opportunity for them to improve their status.

You believe the Quran is the word of God or you don’t. If you believe in the Quran, it is a matter of faith. You cannot prove or disprove it. It is something that you believe in. It is not verifiable.

 

[Mamoon]

The Bible was originally tabulated/revealed in Aramaic language; the King's James' bible is in English. The Qur'an was revealed in Arabic and remains in Arabic.

Flow and Rhythm are 2 distinct characteristics. Flow can be maintained by adding/deleting syllables/words, rhythm on the other hand is like changing the number of bars/groove. Imaging your favourite song shifting from 4/4 to a 3/4 bars during a chorus, you would know instantly something is not right.

All I am saying is that it was the language and prose that convinced people at the time the Qur'an is the word of god. 99% muslims today are unaware of this fact.

Absolutely not. It mainly appealed to the poor and the oppressed and many of then couldn’t even read. It was no different to other prophets either. The followers of Jesus, Moses, Abraham, David, Noah etc. were also mostly from the lower runs of society.

Religion challenges the status of the rich and provides opportunities to the poor.

 

[Technics 1210]

[/b]

Absolutely not. It mainly appealed to the poor and the oppressed and many of then couldn’t even read. It was no different to other prophets either. The followers of Jesus, Moses, Abraham, David, Noah etc. were also mostly from the lower runs of society.

Religion challenges the status of the rich and provides opportunities to the poor.

That's right Mamoon many couldn't read. Hence recitation. You don't have to read to recite. The term Qur'an means the recitation.

Come back with a more intelligent argument if you want to be deliberately controversial for the sake of attention.

 

[Mamoon]

That's right Mamoon many couldn't read. Hence recitation. You don't have to read to recite. The term Qur'an means the recitation.

Come back with a more intelligent argument if you want to be deliberately controversial for the sake of attention.

Again - the gist of your (weak) argument was that the Arabs were convinced that Quran was the word of God because as masters of Arabic poetry, they recognized that the flow of Arabic and the prose used in the Quran was beyond human capability.

What you fail to understand is that the majority of the followers at the time were poor and uneducated people who couldn’t read or write, and hence they were not masters of Arabic poetry and hence they were not in a position to appreciate the standard of Arabic in the Quran.

There is a big difference between speaking a language and reading/writing. For example, a person who can speak Urdu but does not know how to read and write cannot distinguish between great Urdu poetry and mediocre Urdu poetry.

Islam was largely attractive to the destitute because it presented an opportunity for them to change their social status and improve their lives.

They did not embrace Islam because they were impressed by quality of Arabic in the Quran. They were in a position to judge it.

 

[Technics 1210]

Again - the gist of your (weak) argument was that the Arabs were convinced that Quran was the word of God because as masters of Arabic poetry, they recognized that the flow of Arabic and the prose used in the Quran was beyond human capability.

What you fail to understand is that the majority of the followers at the time were poor and uneducated people who couldn’t read or write, and hence they were not masters of Arabic poetry and hence they were not in a position to appreciate the standard of Arabic in the Quran.

There is a big difference between speaking a language and reading/writing. For example, a person who can speak Urdu but does not know how to read and write cannot distinguish between great Urdu poetry and mediocre Urdu poetry.

Islam was largely attractive to the destitute because it presented an opportunity for them to change their social status and improve their lives.

They did not embrace Islam because they were impressed by quality of Arabic in the Quran. They were in a position to judge it.

As I have said, you don't have to read to recite. Uneducated people can still understand language despite not being able to read. So save the essays and save the uneducated/couldnt read argument.

Anyway, you lost faith in Islam, then regained your faith.

You are just arguing for the sake of it.

Enjoy the rest of your honeymoon!

 

[Abdullah719]

Again - the gist of your (weak) argument was that the Arabs were convinced that Quran was the word of God because as masters of Arabic poetry, they recognized that the flow of Arabic and the prose used in the Quran was beyond human capability.

What you fail to understand is that the majority of the followers at the time were poor and uneducated people who couldn’t read or write, and hence they were not masters of Arabic poetry and hence they were not in a position to appreciate the standard of Arabic in the Quran.

There is a big difference between speaking a language and reading/writing. For example, a person who can speak Urdu but does not know how to read and write cannot distinguish between great Urdu poetry and mediocre Urdu poetry.

Islam was largely attractive to the destitute because it presented an opportunity for them to change their social status and improve their lives.

They did not embrace Islam because they were impressed by quality of Arabic in the Quran. They were in a position to judge it.

In many cases, it was the higher-ups and leaders of the tribes who accepted Islam first, and then their followers (commoners) did the same as a result.

 

[miandadrules]

In many cases, it was the higher-ups and leaders of the tribes who accepted Islam first, and then their followers (commoners) did the same as a result.

That’s called patronage.

 

[Mamoon]

As I have said, you don't have to read to recite. Uneducated people can still understand language despite not being able to read. So save the essays and save the uneducated/couldnt read argument.

Anyway, you lost faith in Islam, then regained your faith.

You are just arguing for the sake of it.

Enjoy the rest of your honeymoon!

There is a difference between understand a language and appreciating poetry. Even a child can understand a language but he cannot appreciate poetry and cannot distinguish between good poetry and bad poetry.

Your claim for Quran’s divinity is that the Arabs were masters of Arabic poetry and they realized that a human being is incapable of such flow, rhythm and prose.

However, the uneducated and illiterate masses who embraced Islam were not qualified to make that judgement.

Similarly, no ordinary person is capable of writing high fiction. A regular brain does not have the imaginative powers of people like Tolkien, Martin or even low fantasy writers like J. K. Rowling.

As I said earlier, if these extraordinarily creative and imaginative people lived thousands of years ago and declared their work as God’s narration of a different world, many people would have believed them.

I am not arguing for the sake of arguing. I am arguing for the sake of convincing you and others that there is no way of proving that Quran is the word of God. It is purely a matter of faith.

You either believe or you don’t. You cannot convince anyone or even yourself because that is not how faith works.

No one can prove that Quran is the word of God. Not me, not you, not the Imam of Kaabah or the Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia.

Before you repeat yourself, tell me to enjoy my honeymoon and expect me to go in circles, look - if you want to have the last word then you can have the last word.

I am perfectly fine with that, but my point is that you are wasting your time if you think that you have cracked the code for proving the divinity of Quran unlike 99% of the Muslim population.

You are not among the esteemed 1% who can prove the Quran. No, you are just a deluded individual who does not understand what it means to have faith.

 

[Technics 1210]

There is a difference between understand a language and appreciating poetry. Even a child can understand a language but he cannot appreciate poetry and cannot distinguish between good poetry and bad poetry.

Your claim for Quran’s divinity is that the Arabs were masters of Arabic poetry and they realized that a human being is incapable of such flow, rhythm and prose.

However, the uneducated and illiterate masses who embraced Islam were not qualified to make that judgement.

Similarly, no ordinary person is capable of writing high fiction. A regular brain does not have the imaginative powers of people like Tolkien, Martin or even low fantasy writers like J. K. Rowling.

As I said earlier, if these extraordinarily creative and imaginative people lived thousands of years ago and declared their work as God’s narration of a different world, many people would have believed them.

I am not arguing for the sake of arguing. I am arguing for the sake of convincing you and others that there is no way of proving that Quran is the word of God. It is purely a matter of faith.

You either believe or you don’t. You cannot convince anyone or even yourself because that is not how faith works.

No one can prove that Quran is the word of God. Not me, not you, not the Imam of Kaabah or the Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia.

Before you repeat yourself, tell me to enjoy my honeymoon and expect me to go in circles, look - if you want to have the last word then you can have the last word.

I am perfectly fine with that, but my point is that you are wasting your time if you think that you have cracked the code for proving the divinity of Quran unlike 99% of the Muslim population.

You are not among the esteemed 1% who can prove the Quran. No, you are just a deluded individual who does not understand what it means to have faith.

What are you bleating on about now?

Who said the Qur'an is proof of god? I said the language and prose convinced people at the time the Qur'an is the infallible word of god. Belief in God is a matter of faith, even the Qur'an states this many times.

You just learned something new today and since you are some self proclaimed novelist you think you have a grasp on language. You do not. You cannot even distinguish between proof and faith, or read and recite.

Your contribution in this thread starts with the usual anti Pakistan/IK vitriol, followed by a summation from Google, and now you are wasting your time on something you had no idea of, because had you done, your initial contribution would've revealed so.

 

[Mamoon]

In many cases, it was the higher-ups and leaders of the tribes who accepted Islam first, and then their followers (commoners) did the same as a result.

Correct. That is why I said that the character of Prophet Muhammad as his reputation as an honorable and trustworthy individual was hugely important.

If someone like Abu Lahab would have declared himself as the Prophet people would have been far more skeptical.

People trusted him and thus a lot of believed in his message. That is why someone like Usman, who was one of the richest people of his time was amongst the earliest people who embraced Islam.

But the message of the Quran was extremely attractive to the lower rungs of the society who saw it as a means to improve their social status.

Amongst the many reasons that attracted people to Islam, the flow and style of the recitations is probably the last reason why they were attracted to the religion. The source (Muhammad pbuh) and the message were the major factors why Islam made strides.

If anyone wants to prove that Quran is the word of God because of the standard of Arabic or because of any other reason(s), he/she is simply wasting time. Religion cannot be proved. It is a matter of faith.

 

[miandadrules]

I don't think you understand, and I would go as far as saying 99% of Muslims are clueless in this regard.

What do you think convinced the people at the time the Qur'an was the word of God? It was not the stories in the Qur'an, given many of the stories found in the Qur'an are also found in the Torah and Bible. It was the language and the prose of the Qur'an which convinced people (Arabs at the time) the Qur'an is the word of God.

During the time of revelation, Arabs were masters at poetry, but then comes the Qur'an revelation. The language and prose was so far advanced that Arabs couldn't even conceive the language and the prose. The recitation is not only rich in content, but is 100% rhythmic.

Any change in the language/prose breaks the rhythm of the Qur'an and it is for this reason the Qur'an cannot be altered in Arabic. The moment a single word/letter changes, the rhythm is broken, and this signals the Qur'an has been altered. This is how the Qur'an is preserved.

The Qur'an mentions how the Bible and Torah have been altered hence God revealed the Qur'an.

The very rhythm and prose of the Qur'an means the Qur'an can be memorised - thus there was no need to tabulate the revelation. Once in memory, there is no way to alter Qur'an.

Many have tried and failed to produce a single verse like that of the Qur'an.

The language and prose convinced people at the time that the Qur'an is the infallible word of God, and to add, previous scriptures such as the Bible/torah are confirmed through the rich language, prose, and rhythm of the Qur'an.

So people can alter the translation, but it is impossible to alter the Qur'an in Arabic without breaking the rhythm.

But the numbers don’t support your claim.

When an appeal was made through language the number of Muslims was few and far between. It was only once power was consolidated did the numbers grow exponentially.

Surely, if what you say is true, this discrepancy wouldn’t exist?

 

[Mamoon]

What are you bleating on about now?

My “bleating” hasn’t changed since I replied to your post in this thread. You are the one forcing me to go in circles.

Who said the Qur'an is proof of god?

You did.

I said the language and prose convinced people at the time the Qur'an is the infallible word of god.

So the language and prose is proof the Quran is the infallible word of God and yet you claim that you are not insisting that it is the word of God?

Are you even listening to yourself and the contradiction in your argument?

Belief in God is a matter of faith, even the Qur'an states this many times.

How can it be a matter of faith when (as per you) the language and the prose in the Quran is prove that it is the infallible word of God?

Again, are you listening to yourself and can you spot the contradiction in your argument?

You just learned something new today and since you are some self proclaimed novelist you think you have a grasp on language. You do not. You cannot even distinguish between proof and faith, or read and recite.

I am trying to. It has been over a decade and I am not even half done. I am either suffering a severe writer’s block or perhaps my imagination is not strong enough to be a fiction writer.

Thus, I am amazed by people like Rowling who was able to write the entire Harry Potter series in about 15 years. I have nothing but admiration for these writers.

My grasp of the English language may not be perfect but I think it is reasonable enough for me to communicate without people mocking me for my poor English to use it as a shield against their weak, contradictory argument.

Your contribution in this thread starts with the usual anti Pakistan/IK vitriol, followed by a summation from Google, and now you are wasting your time on something you had no idea of, because had you done, your initial contribution would've revealed so.

You call it vitriol because I raised a valid question - if this indeed true, would Imran Khan launch an aggressive verbal attack on China just like he attacks Modi for his discrimination against Indian Muslims? If no, why not?

Secondly, what point of my argument was a summation of google? Besides, let’s suppose I used Google. What is wrong with that? When you are not clear on something it is also good to double-check and verify your sources.

Isn’t it far better than making up stuff? For example, do you remember your embarrassment in the Star Wars thread when you claimed that Disney only produces movies with female protagonists?

A quick Google check prior to that post would have saved you the embarrassment of propagating false information.

 

[Technics 1210]

My “bleating” hasn’t changed since I replied to your post in this thread. You are the one forcing me to go in circles.



You did.



So the language and prose is proof the Quran is the infallible word of God and yet you claim that you are not insisting that it is the word of God?

Are you even listening to yourself and the contradiction in your argument?



How can it be a matter of faith when (as per you) the language and the prose in the Quran is prove that it is the infallible word of God?

Again, are you listening to yourself and can you spot the contradiction in your argument?



I am trying to. It has been over a decade and I am not even half done. I am either suffering a severe writer’s block or perhaps my imagination is not strong enough to be a fiction writer.

Thus, I am amazed by people like Rowling who was able to write the entire Harry Potter series in about 15 years. I have nothing but admiration for these writers.

My grasp of the English language may not be perfect but I think it is reasonable enough for me to communicate without people mocking me for my poor English to use it as a shield against their weak, contradictory argument.



You call it vitriol because I raised a valid question - if this indeed true, would Imran Khan launch an aggressive verbal attack on China just like he attacks Modi for his discrimination against Indian Muslims? If no, why not?

Secondly, what point of my argument was a summation of google? Besides, let’s suppose I used Google. What is wrong with that? When you are not clear on something it is also good to double-check and verify your sources.

Isn’t it far better than making up stuff? For example, do you remember your embarrassment in the Star Wars thread when you claimed that Disney only produces movies with female protagonists?

A quick Google check prior to that post would have saved you the embarrassment of propagating false information.

Yes I do call your initial contribution vitriol, because Pakistan and IK are irrelevant to this thread. Boy you must be mentally scarred.

Now you are putting words in my mouth by claiming I said the Qur'an is proof of God in this thread.

Thankfully I'm not the only one who sees this.

You need to see a doctor. No wait.

Happy trolling dear boy.

 

[Slim]

I am truly sad to see the ignorant and full of jahalat comments of [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] and [MENTION=1080]miandadrules[/MENTION]. I hope your intentions were not what you have shown here. You are comparing the word of Allah with Tolkein and GRRM? Are you insane?

The word of Holy Quran came through Prophet Muhammad, who was an illiterate, from Allah.

Holy Quran can not be altered, Allah almighty has taken responsibility of safe guarding it. The Holy Quran has been memorized since the time of Prophet and therefore has not been altered.

Some Shias in their hatred for Umar, Usman have lose their damn minds concocting such false tales with no evidence. Hell, some even took Ali as the next Prophet, god forbid.

There is no compromise on the seal of Prophets and the scarcity and protection of the Holy Quran.

 

[Slim]

Hadiths are from the time of the Prophet, how can they prove that Quran compilation might have involved some corruption when the compilation happened after the demise of Prophet? This whole ** reasoning falls apart.

And what are those hadiths to begin with?

 

[Captain caveman]

In many cases, it was the higher-ups and leaders of the tribes who accepted Islam first, and then their followers (commoners) did the same as a result.

This is very true for most ancient religions.
Christianity being one of the most famous for this, despite being started by Jesus(pbuh), it was only a small group who believed in christianity, christianity became a global religion when emperor constantine of rome converted to christianity in the fourth century and all his people followed(catholic church).
King Henry viii started off the anglican church.
So its the leaders of ancient times usually who decide the religious beliefs of the people.

In a funny but not really funny way, president Xi of china is trying to do the same thing with his socialist way of representing islam.

 

[Mamoon]

I am truly sad to see the ignorant and full of jahalat comments of [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] and [MENTION=1080]miandadrules[/MENTION]. I hope your intentions were not what you have shown here. You are comparing the word of Allah with Tolkein and GRRM? Are you insane?

The word of Holy Quran came through Prophet Muhammad, who was an illiterate, from Allah.

Holy Quran can not be altered, Allah almighty has taken responsibility of safe guarding it. The Holy Quran has been memorized since the time of Prophet and therefore has not been altered.

Some Shias in their hatred for Umar, Usman have lose their damn minds concocting such false tales with no evidence. Hell, some even took Ali as the next Prophet, god forbid.

There is no compromise on the seal of Prophets and the scarcity and protection of the Holy Quran.

You believe that the Quran cannot be altered because Allah Almighty has take responsibility for it. You also believe that is the word of the Almighty Allah. However, this is your faith and you cannot prove it. No one can.

If you were not born in a Muslim household you wouldn’t have believed any of the above that you now staunchly believe. That is why it is about faith and not something that can be proved or disproved.

My point is that the you cannot use the flow of language and prose in the Quran to prove that it is divine. You can use that logic for works of high and low fantasy as well which cannot be reproduced by the common man and require extraordinary powers of creativity and imagination.

If Tolkien lived thousands of years ago and called his work as the word of God as a story of another world, many people would have believed because his work is nothing short of a miracle.

I repeat that there is absolutely no way that anyone can prove that it is the word of God. You either believe that it is or you don’t.

 

[Technics 1210]

Ladies and gentlemen. Do not fall for the bait and switch routine.

What started off as a thread on the integrity of the Qur'an and Bible has now turned into an attempted proof vs faith argument because of attention seeking based on Google searches.

Don't fall for it, and let's maintain the integrity of this thread.

 

[Slim]

You believe that the Quran cannot be altered because Allah Almighty has take responsibility for it. You also believe that is the word of the Almighty Allah. However, this is your faith and you cannot prove it. No one can.

If you were not born in a Muslim household you wouldn’t have believed any of the above that you now staunchly believe. That is why it is about faith and not something that can be proved or disproved.

My point is that the you cannot use the flow of language and prose in the Quran to prove that it is divine. You can use that logic for works of high and low fantasy as well which cannot be reproduced by the common man and require extraordinary powers of creativity and imagination.

If Tolkien lived thousands of years ago and called his work as the word of God as a story of another world, many people would have believed because his work is nothing short of a miracle.

I repeat that there is absolutely no way that anyone can prove that it is the word of God. You either believe that it is or you don’t.

There is no evidence to prove that Holy Quran has been altered.

Miandad rules pointed out two things; Hafs and Warsh, and the Sannah Manuscript but funny that there was literally no difference in the message of all these when i looked into these in details. A difference of We or He, in some places and thats all, the overall message of the verse is exact same.

There is literally NO evidence of alterations, i repeat but there is complete evidence of Holy Quran maintaining its true form since the time of Prophet.

 

[miandadrules]

I am truly sad to see the ignorant and full of jahalat comments of [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] and [MENTION=1080]miandadrules[/MENTION]. I hope your intentions were not what you have shown here. You are comparing the word of Allah with Tolkein and GRRM? Are you insane?

The word of Holy Quran came through Prophet Muhammad, who was an illiterate, from Allah.

Holy Quran can not be altered, Allah almighty has taken responsibility of safe guarding it. The Holy Quran has been memorized since the time of Prophet and therefore has not been altered.

Some Shias in their hatred for Umar, Usman have lose their damn minds concocting such false tales with no evidence. Hell, some even took Ali as the next Prophet, god forbid.

There is no compromise on the seal of Prophets and the scarcity and protection of the Holy Quran.

What exactly disgusted you?

And what are my intentions?

Thank you for all the evidence you have provided. Appreciate it.

 

[Technics 1210]

There is no evidence to prove that Holy Quran has been altered.

Miandad rules pointed out two things; Hafs and Warsh, and the Sannah Manuscript but funny that there was literally no difference in the message of all these when i looked into these in details. A difference of We or He, in some places and thats all, the overall message of the verse is exact same.

There is literally NO evidence of alterations, i repeat but there is complete evidence of Holy Quran maintaining its true form since the time of Prophet.

Exactly.

Despite what people may think of the content in the Qur'an, the Arabic language of the Qur'an remains identical till this day. A testament to Allah's guarantee.

 

[Kashmirilion]

So another thread becomes a anti islam/quran bashing thread.

 

[yasir]

Quran has remained unchanged. Not a single dot has been changed. Quran has survived so many brutal empires. China is nothing in front of God.

That is not true, Where are the so called Usman’s scriptures??

Many Muslims believe that Quran of today is the version formulated by Usman, just decade or two after the death of Prophet. But no country or museum has copy of it.