Has the Holy Quran undergone any changes in its history?

[Slim]

That is not true, Where are the so called Usman’s scriptures??

Many Muslims believe that Quran of today is the version formulated by Usman, just decade or two after the death of Prophet. But no country or museum has copy of it.

What are Usman's scriptures? Compilation of Quran started in Abu Bakar's time and ended in Uthman's time. There is no sensationalism to it like you are trying to attach with your petty attempts.

 

[yasir]

What are Usman's scriptures? Compilation of Quran started in Abu Bakar's time and ended in Uthman's time. There is no sensationalism to it like you are trying to attach with your petty attempts.

OK, where is the so called original Quran that has not been altered, who has it right now??

 

[Technics 1210]

Oldest Qur'an fragments found in Birmingham University.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-33436021

Excerpts:

Radiocarbon dating found the manuscript to be at least 1,370 years old, making it among the earliest in existence.

These tests provide a range of dates, showing that, with a probability of more than 95%, the parchment was from between 568 and 645.

"They could well take us back to within a few years of the actual founding of Islam," said David Thomas, the university's professor of Christianity and Islam.

"The person who actually wrote it could well have known the Prophet Muhammad. He would have seen him probably, he would maybe have heard him preach. He may have known him personally - and that really is quite a thought to conjure with," he says.

"These portions must have been in a form that is very close to the form of the Koran read today, supporting the view that the text has undergone little or no alteration and that it can be dated to a point very close to the time it was believed to be revealed."

 

[Ronaldo7]

"little or NO alteration"

 

[Slim]

OK, where is the so called original Quran that has not been altered, who has it right now??

In your house and in every Muslim's house. The Quran is the SAME in everyone's house. Let me know if yours has a different message than the rest.

 

[Slim]

There are a lot of things one can debate about when it comes to religion but finality of the Prophet, Quran's protection from all corruption, Allah's oneness are things there is no debate about and any argument with regards to it are absolutely baseless, and pathetic at best.

 

[miandadrules]

There are a lot of things one can debate about when it comes to religion but finality of the Prophet, Quran's protection from all corruption, Allah's oneness are things there is no debate about and any argument with regards to it are absolutely baseless, and pathetic at best.

But can you at least appreciate the concerns that people will have with this narrative?

 

[Slim]

But can you at least appreciate the concerns that people will have with this narrative?

I would have if those concers had any basis to them. From the looks of it those concerns are based on concoted stories, wishful thinking, delusion and hatred for the rightly guided caliphs.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

So another thread becomes a anti islam/quran bashing thread.

This is because Islam and the Quran cause much pain and anguish to non-Muslims.

 

[miandadrules]

I would have if those concers had any basis to them. From the looks of it those concerns are based on concoted stories, wishful thinking, delusion and hatred for the rightly guided caliphs.

But you’ve just made blanket statements about the veracity of your claims without any proof yet your accuse others of the same.

Why the discrepancy?

Are you saying that your position is the rightful default position, without question?

 

[miandadrules]

This is because Islam and the Quran cause much pain and anguish to non-Muslims.

Probably true.

Blasphemy is punishable by death.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Probably true.

Blasphemy is punishable by death.

You could always avoid that by not committing blasphemy, but that itself may trigger anguish.

 

[Ronaldo7]

Probably true.

Blasphemy is punishable by death.

And how many times has anyone actually been executed due to them being blasphemous?

 

[miandadrules]

You could always avoid that by not committing blasphemy, but that itself may trigger anguish.

You could also avoid persecuting people, but that itself may trigger anguish.

 

[miandadrules]

And how many times has anyone actually been executed due to them being blasphemous?

How many have returned to normalcy after?

 

[Ronaldo7]

How many have returned to normalcy after?

Can't answer a question with a question.

 

[Mamoon]

There is no evidence to prove that Holy Quran has been altered.

Miandad rules pointed out two things; Hafs and Warsh, and the Sannah Manuscript but funny that there was literally no difference in the message of all these when i looked into these in details. A difference of We or He, in some places and thats all, the overall message of the verse is exact same.

There is literally NO evidence of alterations, i repeat but there is complete evidence of Holy Quran maintaining its true form since the time of Prophet.

I am not talking about whether the Quran has been altered or not. I have already covered it in my earlier posts in this thread.

I was objecting to the notion that Quran is the word of God because the flow and prose of the Arabic language is beyond human capabilities. That is absolutely no proof of the divinity of the Quran.

In fact, there is no proof at all. It is a matter of faith - you either believe that it is the word of Allah Almighty or you don’t.

As far as the notion that it has never been altered, I agree that there is no conclusive prove. However, the assumption that it cannot be altered or will never be altered is again a matter of faith and it cannot be proved.

The proof provided is that the Allah Almighty has promised to protect it. Again, the validity of that promise depends on your faith. If you have faith in Islam, you will accept that promise. If not, you will not believe that Quran has divine protection.

This is a futile debate because it is entirely based on faith.

 

[miandadrules]

Can't answer a question with a question.

Your reluctance speaks volumes!

 

[Ronaldo7]

Your reluctance speaks volumes!

What r u on about?

 

[miandadrules]

What r u on about?

Basic humanity.

 

[Technics 1210]

So to summarise, the Qur'an cannot be altered in Arabic as it will break the language, prose, and rhythm of the Qur'an; attributes which convinced people at the time the Qur'an is the word of God.

Any attempt to alter the Qur'an will end in ignominious failure, proven by the fact the oldest Qur'an in existence in comparison to copies today contain no differences.

Put simply, Allah's preservation guarantee is embedded within the language, rhythm, and prose of the Qur'an.

 

[Sultanofswing]

It would have broken all PP records of the longest and India bashing thread. But here culprit is China. They can do anything. Rewrite Quran or sell Pakistani girls but we shall keep silence. Iron brother is permitted to do anything.

 

[uberkoen]

There is no evidence to prove that Holy Quran has been altered.

Miandad rules pointed out two things; Hafs and Warsh, and the Sannah Manuscript but funny that there was literally no difference in the message of all these when i looked into these in details. A difference of We or He, in some places and thats all, the overall message of the verse is exact same.

There is literally NO evidence of alterations, i repeat but there is complete evidence of Holy Quran maintaining its true form since the time of Prophet.

There is evidence, in fact a lot of evidence. Look at the lower text of the Sanaa manuscript for example.

There is a study by Dr. Kieth Small entitled "Textual Criticism and Qur'an Manuscripts" which does a comparison of the popular modern Quranic text to 22 other copies of the Quran including many of the earliest manuscripts we possess as well as several medieval manuscripts and one modern edition of the Warsh text used by many Muslims in North Africa and Yemen. He focused his work specifically on Surah 14:35-41. In just these seven verses, he found nearly 350 variants among all the manuscripts he examined.

Moreover, The very story of the Quran's collection reports the addition of at least one verse. In Sahih Al-Bukhari (Volume 6, book 61, number 509), it is said that after Muhammad's death there was a battle in which many people who had memorized the Quran had died. The close companions of Muhammad who were leading the Muslim community were concerned that portions of the Quran could be entirely lost if they didn't collect all of the Quran into one written volume. Abu Bakr sent a man to gather all of the Quran together, saying:

"you should search for (the fragmentary scripts of) the Qur'an and collect it in one book." He began the project of "collecting it from (what was written on) palmed stalks, thin white stones and also from the men who knew it by heart, till I found the last Verse of Surat At-Tauba (Repentance) with Abi Khuzaima Al-Ansari, and I did not find it with anybody other than him."

From this work, one official copy of the Quran was produced and remained with Abu Bakr until he died.

The very next Hadith in the collection (Volume 6, Book 61, Number 510) explains that by the time of the third Caliph, Usman, Muslims were reciting the Quran differently from one another so significantly that it threatened to tear the Muslim community apart. Usman sent for the full copy of the Quran that Abu Bakr had made, and also sent for all the written fragments of Quranic material throughout the land and commissioned a yet another project of collecting the Quran. He ordered the production of a new authoritative edition of the Quran, a copy of which was sent to each province. All the other Quranic material was burned. The hadith ends by noting that a verse had been left out of Abu Bakr's edition that was found and added to Usman's collection.

Once again, this verse was found only with Khuzaima bin Al-Ansari, the same person who had remembered a verse no one else knew the first time the Quran was collected.

Apart from the additional verses added. Hadith also provides evidence of missing verses.

In Sahih Muslim, Book 017, Number 4194, Umar is quoted as saying:

"Verily Allah sent Muhammad (may peace be upon him) with truth and He sent down the Book upon him, and the verse of stoning was included in what was sent down to him. We recited it, retained it in our memory and understood it."

In Sahih Al-Bukhari Volume 8, Book 82, Number 816, Umar is quoted as saying

"I am afraid that after a long time has passed, people may say, 'We do not find the Verses of the Rajam (stoning to death) in the Holy Book,' and consequently they may go astray by leaving an obligation that Allah has revealed."

A'isha, is also said to have reported:

"The Verse of stoning and of breastfeeding an adult ten times was revealed, and the paper was with me under my pillow. When the Messenger of Allah died, we were preoccupied with his death, and a tame sheep came in and ate it," (Sunan Ibn Majah, Volume 3, Book 9, Number 1944).

Moreover, we also find evidence that some of the early reciters that were considered to be great were also either forgetful or reciting different version of the Qur'an.

Sahih Al-Bukhari Volume 5, Book 57, Number 103 reads:

"Abdullah (bin Mas'ud) was mentioned before 'Abdullah bin 'Amr. The latter said, 'That is a man I continue to love because I heard Allah's Apostle saying, ' Learn the recitation of the Qur'an from (any of these) four persons: 'Abdullah bin Masud, Salim the freed slave of Abu Hudhaifa, Ubai bin Kab, and Muadh bin Jabal.' I do not remember whether he mentioned Ubai first or Muadh."

This same Abdullah bin Masud is also reported in Sahih Al-Bukhari as having said:

"By Allah other than Whom none has the right to be worshiped! There is no Surah revealed in Allah's Book but I know at what place it was revealed; and there is no Verse revealed in Allah's Book but I know about whom."

We cannot question, then, that Muslim tradition holds Masud as a particularly complete and trustworthy source for the Quran. Yet Muslim tradition is filled with hosts of examples of where Masud's readings were different from the standard text. In fact, some sources say his version of the Qur'an was three Surah's shorter.

Nonetheless, Masud criticized the version of the Qur'an compiled by Usman. He said

"The people have been guilty of deceit in the reading of the Qur'an. I like it better to read according to the recitation of him (Prophet) whom I love more than that of Zayd Ibn Thabit," (Ibn Sa'd, Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir, Vol. 2, p.444).

He also accused Usman's scribes of adding three extra suras (1, 113 and 114) that had never been part of the original, and of making many other small changes to the text.

Ubai bin Kab is listed above alongside Masud as one of the great reciters of the Quran commended by Muhammad himself. Sahih Al-Bukhari Volume 6, Book 61, Number 527 records about Ubai bin Kab:

"Umar said Ubai was the best of us in the recitation (of the Qur'an) yet we leave some of what he recites."

Whereas Ibn Mas'ud omitted three surahs (1, 113 and 114) from his Qur'an mashaf (codex), Ubay ibn Ka'b had 116 surahs in his, including two extra short surahs, al-Hafd (the Haste) and al-Khal' (the Separation), which he placed between what are surahs 103 and 104 in Usman's Qur'an

Abu Musa al-Ash'ari, one of the early authorities on the Qur'an text and a companion of Muhammad, claimed a surah which resembled at-Tawba (also known as Bara'at) in length and severity was forgotten and lost, but included a passage on the greed of man, which is not in today's Qur'an. (Sahih Muslim Book 5, Hadith 2286). Even ibn Abbas was unsure whether it was part of the Qur'an or not (Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 76, Hadith 445) Ubai said that it was considered as a saying from the Qur'an for a while during Muhammad's lifetime (Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 76, Hadith 446). Al-Suyuti records the recollection by Abu Waqid al-Laithii of the occasion when the lost passage about the valleys was revealed. He says that Muhammad claimed it as a revelation from Allah, just like when he received other revelations.

(I would like to add here that the above also means that the whole bring a Surah like this challenge was already met back in the time of the Prophet and the caliphs as there were non-Qur'anic surahs and verses that sounded very much like those of the Qur'an. Surah al-Hafd and Surah al-khal', and the verses about Adam and the valleys sounded so Qur'anic that they were at one time believed to be so by speakers of 7th century Arabic, Sahabah no less. Those who claim that these were once part of the Qur'an and later abrogated, or that Al-Hafd and Al-Khal' were du'as given to Muhammad by Jibril need to explain why they were abrogated when there is no obvious reason, or why Allah allowed confusion to arise about the status of the latter two when they were recorded in the mashafs of three companions.)

Furthermore, people claim that early muslims had memorized the Qur'an which has ensured its authenticity. Yet, we find from Hadith that even Muhammad himself used to forget verses of the Qur'an so how is it possible to rely on the memorization of these early muslims. Sahih Bukhari Volume 6, Book 61, Hadith 558:

Narrated Aisha:

Allah's Messenger heard a man reciting the Qur'an at night, and said, "May Allah bestow His Mercy on him, as he has reminded me of such-and-such Verses of such-and-such Suras, which I was caused to forget."

Further evidence of the Qur'an being altered can be found in other Muslim sources including the tafsir.

Narrated ‘Aasim ibn Bahdalah, from Zirr, who said:

Ubayy ibn Ka‘b said to me: How long is Soorat al-Ahzaab when you read it? Or how many verses do you think it is? I said to him: Seventy-three verses. He said: Only? There was a time when it was as long as Soorat al-Baqarah, and we read in it: “The old man and the old woman, if they commit zina, then stone them both, a punishment from Allah, and Allah is Almighty, Most Wise.” (Musnad Ahmad 21245)

“Aisha narrates: ‘Surah Ahzab contained 200 verses during the lifetime of Prophet but when the Quran was collected we only found the amount that can be found in the present Quran". (Tafsir al Qurtubi)

 

[MenInG]

A very thin and ugly line being crossed here.

We are all for debate on Islam but people here are questioning motives, memories of the companions of the Prophet PBUH.

Suggest we dont cross that line.

 

[uberkoen]

A very thin and ugly line being crossed here.

We are all for debate on Islam but people here are questioning motives, memories of the companions of the Prophet PBUH.

Suggest we dont cross that line.

No offence meant. I know it is a sensitive subject which is why I spent over an hour on the post ensuring that my sources are all authentic hadith and have mentioned the references.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

You could also avoid persecuting people, but that itself may trigger anguish.

Perhaps that is the aim of the Chinese. By rewriting the Quran and the Bible as part of their programme to re educate those who follow religious texts too enthusiastically. China's internment camps for Muslims are maybe justified from a non-Muslim's point of view if the religion is so toxic to their survival.

 

[MenInG]

No offence meant. I know it is a sensitive subject which is why I spent over an hour on the post ensuring that my sources are all authentic hadith and have mentioned the references.

But bro you know that the finality of the Quran is an important part of our religion and faith so we need to be careful how we word stuff.

 

[shaz619]

[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] Am not judging or labelling you anything but my understanding is you consider yourself to be a Muslim and believer in Islam, correct ? this is interesting considering that some of your views may not necessarily be classified as orthodox ( am no expert btw but that's just an opinion) ; therefore, what ensures your current belief ?

 

[Mamoon]

[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] Am not judging or labelling you anything but my understanding is you consider yourself to be a Muslim and believer in Islam, correct ? this is interesting considering that some of your views may not necessarily be classified as orthodox ( am no expert btw but that's just an opinion) ; therefore, what ensures your current belief ?

I have made peace with the fact that the core essence of religion is faith, and faith can only be blind. Hence, I no longer question things like I used to before and thus I feel content.

However, I cannot convince or provide proof that I am on the right path. I do acknowledge that like 99% of the people, I wouldn’t have been a Muslim if I wasn’t born in a Muslim family. It is simply a matter of luck - we are all Muslims by fluke, just like people are Christian, Jews and Hindus by fluke.

That is why I have great respect for people who convert to other religions. It is a very difficult decision and takes a lot of courage.

I find all these discussions futile. The people in this thread who are trying to prove that Quran is the word of God would have found themselves on the other side of the debate if they were born in a Christian or a Hindu family, or a family with atheist beliefs.

No religion can be proved. It is impossible. That is why it is called faith - you either believe or you don’t. The vast majority of us believe because we have been programmed to believe in it.

How many of us have cared to read into other religions with an open mind? It is easy to claim over the Internet, but in real life, hardly any Muslim has read the Bible or the Vedas with an open mind and has then come to the conclusion that Islam is the only true religion.

 

[RajBan]

I have made peace with the fact that the core essence of religion is faith, and faith can only be blind. Hence, I no longer question things like I used to before and thus I feel content.

However, I cannot convince or provide proof that I am on the right path. I do acknowledge that like 99% of the people, I wouldn’t have been a Muslim if I wasn’t born in a Muslim family. It is simply a matter of luck - we are all Muslims by fluke, just like people are Christian, Jews and Hindus by fluke.

That is why I have great respect for people who convert to other religions. It is a very difficult decision and takes a lot of courage.

I find all these discussions futile. The people in this thread who are trying to prove that Quran is the word of God would have found themselves on the other side of the debate if they were born in a Christian or a Hindu family, or a family with atheist beliefs.

No religion can be proved. It is impossible. That is why it is called faith - you either believe or you don’t. The vast majority of us believe because we have been programmed to believe in it.

How many of us have cared to read into other religions with an open mind? It is easy to claim over the Internet, but in real life, hardly any Muslim has read the Bible or the Vedas with an open mind and has then come to the conclusion that Islam is the only true religion.

People who convert to other religions can be for different reasons like political, socio-economic or spiritual. I won't necessarily credit or discredit them. It's a choice and as long as the choice is voluntary , it really does not matter to anybody else.

 

[Robert]

I have made peace with the fact that the core essence of religion is faith, and faith can only be blind. Hence, I no longer question things like I used to before and thus I feel content.

However, I cannot convince or provide proof that I am on the right path. I do acknowledge that like 99% of the people, I wouldn’t have been a Muslim if I wasn’t born in a Muslim family. It is simply a matter of luck - we are all Muslims by fluke, just like people are Christian, Jews and Hindus by fluke.

That is why I have great respect for people who convert to other religions. It is a very difficult decision and takes a lot of courage.

I find all these discussions futile. The people in this thread who are trying to prove that Quran is the word of God would have found themselves on the other side of the debate if they were born in a Christian or a Hindu family, or a family with atheist beliefs.

No religion can be proved. It is impossible. That is why it is called faith - you either believe or you don’t. The vast majority of us believe because we have been programmed to believe in it.

How many of us have cared to read into other religions with an open mind? It is easy to claim over the Internet, but in real life, hardly any Muslim has read the Bible or the Vedas with an open mind and has then come to the conclusion that Islam is the only true religion.

Good post [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION]. Mostly, people believe what they are brought up to believe and what they want to believe.

 

[JaDed]

I have made peace with the fact that the core essence of religion is faith, and faith can only be blind. Hence, I no longer question things like I used to before and thus I feel content.

However, I cannot convince or provide proof that I am on the right path. I do acknowledge that like 99% of the people, I wouldn’t have been a Muslim if I wasn’t born in a Muslim family. It is simply a matter of luck - we are all Muslims by fluke, just like people are Christian, Jews and Hindus by fluke.

That is why I have great respect for people who convert to other religions. It is a very difficult decision and takes a lot of courage.

I find all these discussions futile. The people in this thread who are trying to prove that Quran is the word of God would have found themselves on the other side of the debate if they were born in a Christian or a Hindu family, or a family with atheist beliefs.

No religion can be proved. It is impossible. That is why it is called faith - you either believe or you don’t. The vast majority of us believe because we have been programmed to believe in it.

How many of us have cared to read into other religions with an open mind? It is easy to claim over the Internet, but in real life, hardly any Muslim has read the Bible or the Vedas with an open mind and has then come to the conclusion that Islam is the only true religion.

Top post, although there were lot of monetary benefits for conversion over the years and still is in India but their choice.
[MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION] what do you think on the same question that you asked Mamoon.

 

[troodon]

I have made peace with the fact that the core essence of religion is faith, and faith can only be blind. Hence, I no longer question things like I used to before and thus I feel content.

However, I cannot convince or provide proof that I am on the right path. I do acknowledge that like 99% of the people, I wouldn’t have been a Muslim if I wasn’t born in a Muslim family. It is simply a matter of luck - we are all Muslims by fluke, just like people are Christian, Jews and Hindus by fluke.

That is why I have great respect for people who convert to other religions. It is a very difficult decision and takes a lot of courage.

I find all these discussions futile. The people in this thread who are trying to prove that Quran is the word of God would have found themselves on the other side of the debate if they were born in a Christian or a Hindu family, or a family with atheist beliefs.

No religion can be proved. It is impossible. That is why it is called faith - you either believe or you don’t. The vast majority of us believe because we have been programmed to believe in it.

How many of us have cared to read into other religions with an open mind? It is easy to claim over the Internet, but in real life, hardly any Muslim has read the Bible or the Vedas with an open mind and has then come to the conclusion that Islam is the only true religion.

Good post.

However, how can a science student like you believe in the errors in the Quran? Do you ignore those errors from the all knowing all powerful God?

 

[JaDed]

Good post.

However, how can a science student like you believe in the errors in the Quran? Do you ignore those errors from the all knowing all powerful God?

He explained it once, he prayed for something that came true so he has blind faith in it.

And I think thats true for lot of us, not everyone is able to completely be like you , [MENTION=5869]yasir[/MENTION], [MENTION=1080]miandadrules[/MENTION] .

I genuinely have respect for you guys for going all the way but I think its ok to be in the middle as well..

 

[troodon]

He explained it once, he prayed for something that came true so he has blind faith in it.

And I think thats true for lot of us, not everyone is able to completely be like you , [MENTION=5869]yasir[/MENTION], [MENTION=1080]miandadrules[/MENTION] .

I genuinely have respect for you guys for going all the way but I think its ok to be in the middle as well..

I understand that due to some personal experience he may have faith in the God (Quranic God). But when he reads Quran and the Hadith, there are lot of errors. How can you reconcile with them when they are so glaring and in your face errors?

Surely whatever happened when [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] prayed may have happened due to a freak chance. I have also some experience with strange things that happened in my life. I used to be a believer in God until I was about 15. But after that it slowly vanished as I got to know the world more.

 

[JaDed]

I understand that due to some personal experience he may have faith in the God (Quranic God). But when he reads Quran and the Hadith, there are lot of errors. How can you reconcile with them when they are so glaring and in your face errors?

Surely whatever happened when [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] prayed may have happened due to a freak chance. I have also some experience with strange things that happened in my life. I used to be a believer in God until I was about 15. But after that it slowly vanished as I got to know the world more.

Well I’m sure if he rationalizes faith( one need not as its blind ) he will feel the same , I had this issue too but its easier to believe than to be an atheist in our part of the world, so its easier to ignore in South Asia unlike China or Europe where you have to rationalize..

I can rationalize and be like WTH is this when I go to temple(idols, lamps etc) but I choose to ignore, atleast that’s what I do to not question it anymore.

 

[Technics 1210]

It doesn't surprise me people whom are deeply disturbed and insecure have taken this thread as an opportunity to diss religion. Don't like religion, move on. However no one has addressed the main point in the OP. Here it is:

"All translated classic religious books should be "re-evaluated"

China is seeking to alter translations, not the original text, which as far as the Qur'an is concerned, is impossible.

Only the insecure and deeply depressive are attempting to deviate this thread with attention seeking nonsense which is designed to be deliberately controversial, obtrusive, and combative. Such people will never find internal peace - they just like to think they do.

 

[Mamoon]

Good post.

However, how can a science student like you believe in the errors in the Quran? Do you ignore those errors from the all knowing all powerful God?

Yes I ignore. if I don’t, I would lose faith and I don’t want that to happen.

Religion is beautiful because it gives you hope. A child who loses his parent is comforted when he/she is told that the parent is in heaven which is a better place in this world. It is a lot better than thinking that that his parent is now nothing but a decomposed corpse.

Religion also gives poor people hope. You would hardly find a poor person in Pakistan who is not religious and it is obviously ironic because they have very little - if anything - to be thankful for. However, they carry on with their lives because they hope that they will be rewarded in the afterlife.

If they start to believe that there is no life after death and this is all they have, they would probably kill themselves after killing the rich people.

 

[troodon]

Yes I ignore. if I don’t, I would lose faith and I don’t want that to happen.

Religion is beautiful because it gives you hope. A child who loses his parent is comforted when he/she is told that the parent is in heaven which is a better place in this world. It is a lot better than thinking that that his parent is now nothing but a decomposed corpse.

Religion also gives poor people hope. You would hardly find a poor person in Pakistan who is not religious and it is obviously ironic because they have very little - if anything - to be thankful for. However, they carry on with their lives because they hope that they will be rewarded in the afterlife.

If they start to believe that there is no life after death and this is all they have, they would probably kill themselves after killing the rich people.

It’s a mental disease. The more you suffer, the more you believe. I find it funny when the religious heads says that poor are suffering because god is punishing them for their previous wrongdoings and they will be rewarded in afterlife which no one is any proof that it even exists.
Considering the amount of silly mistakes in religious texts, it is obvious that those scriptures were written by medieval illiterates. Even a 2nd grade science book is more accurate than the so called book of the all powerful god.

What the world needs is people loving each other for being humans. Not because certain fool believes in the same fairytale as I believe.

Half of the problems in the world will be solved if religion ceases to exist right now. No Kashmir problem, no Palestine conflict, no more terrorism in the name of invisible sky man.

 

[1ManArmy]

Yes I ignore. if I don’t, I would lose faith and I don’t want that to happen.

Religion is beautiful because it gives you hope. A child who loses his parent is comforted when he/she is told that the parent is in heaven which is a better place in this world. It is a lot better than thinking that that his parent is now nothing but a decomposed corpse.

Religion also gives poor people hope. You would hardly find a poor person in Pakistan who is not religious and it is obviously ironic because they have very little - if anything - to be thankful for. However, they carry on with their lives because they hope that they will be rewarded in the afterlife.

If they start to believe that there is no life after death and this is all they have, they would probably kill themselves after killing the rich people.

Which "errors" in the Quran have you chosen to ignore?

Please let us know too

 

[1ManArmy]

It’s a mental disease. The more you suffer, the more you believe. I find it funny when the religious heads says that poor are suffering because god is punishing them for their previous wrongdoings and they will be rewarded in afterlife which no one is any proof that it even exists.
Considering the amount of silly mistakes in religious texts, it is obvious that those scriptures were written by medieval illiterates. Even a 2nd grade science book is more accurate than the so called book of the all powerful god.

What the world needs is people loving each other for being humans. Not because certain fool believes in the same fairytale as I believe.

Half of the problems in the world will be solved if religion ceases to exist right now. No Kashmir problem, no Palestine conflict, no more terrorism in the name of invisible sky man.

Who says the Kashmir issue is because of religion?

It's a political issue.

One party is suppressing the other and the party that is being suppressed is fighting back.

 

[Mamoon]

Which "errors" in the Quran have you chosen to ignore?

Please let us know too

It is not just the supposed errors in the Quran per se, but the several flaws in the religion itself. I don’t pay too much heed to supposed errors and contradictions because the verses are so vague that they can be interpreted to your convenience.

As far as the general flaws in religion are concerned, the fundamental belief in Islam is that only Muslims are eligible to go to heaven, and if you do not have faith in Allah SWT and his final messenger, you will not be rewarded in the afterlife regardless of your service to humanity.

For example, someone like Bill Gates has helped eradicate polio in all but three countries. He has done mankind greater service than billions of Muslims but since he is not a Muslim, he will be barbecued in hell after he dies. Does that sound fair and reasonable? To me it doesn’t.

Secondly, what is the fault of a person who is born in a Christian or a Hindu family? Why is he supposed to research about Islam and come to the conclusion that Islam is the only true religion? Why are Muslims not supposed to study other religions and then decide for themselves that Islam is the only true religion?

Furthermore, what is the fault of the people who are handicapped or who are born in a poor family? We are told that they will be rewarded in the afterlife, but then there are Muslims in the world who are blessed with everything but will still be rewarded in the afterlife because they are devout Muslims. In other words, they have the best of both worlds because God said so.

Then there are certain stories of the Prophets and rituals that make no sense whatsoever. For example, what would you say if your neighbor has put his foot on his son’s throat and is ready to slaughter him because his God ordered him to?

Will you believe that he is a prophet and follow his religion or will you call the authorities because he is a threat to society?

What will you say about your neighbor’s unmarried daughter who comes home with a son in her arms and claims that no man has touched her?

And then there is the story of Adam & Eve and Iblees. So if Iblees would have obeyed Allah SWT’s command and if Adam was not tempted by Iblees to eat the forbidden fruit, we would not be tested today? Would we all be living and chilling in heaven without being tempted to do evil stuff?

Then there is Hajj. What is the purpose of shaving your head and wearing Ihram? Why hit a rock with stones and pretend that it is iblees, a bizarre practice that leads to several people getting injured every year because they get on the head by pilgrims with poor aims.

What do we gain from fasting for a month and then resuming our normal routine? I have never seen any person get healthy in Ramzan or gain any long-term benefits.

There are of course many, many other examples. The more you think about these things, the more your faith weakens and religions starts to look an ancient cult that does not belong in a civilized world. That is why I try to not think about these things anymore.

 

[1ManArmy]

It is not just the supposed errors in the Quran per se, but the several flaws in the religion itself. I don’t pay too much heed to supposed errors and contradictions because the verses are so vague that they can be interpreted to your convenience.

As far as the general flaws in religion are concerned, the fundamental belief in Islam is that only Muslims are eligible to go to heaven, and if you do not have faith in Allah SWT and his final messenger, you will not be rewarded in the afterlife regardless of your service to humanity.

For example, someone like Bill Gates has helped eradicate polio in all but three countries. He has done mankind greater service than billions of Muslims but since he is not a Muslim, he will be barbecued in hell after he dies. Does that sound fair and reasonable? To me it doesn’t.

Secondly, what is the fault of a person who is born in a Christian or a Hindu family? Why is he supposed to research about Islam and come to the conclusion that Islam is the only true religion? Why are Muslims not supposed to study other religions and then decide for themselves that Islam is the only true religion?

Furthermore, what is the fault of the people who are handicapped or who are born in a poor family? We are told that they will be rewarded in the afterlife, but then there are Muslims in the world who are blessed with everything but will still be rewarded in the afterlife because they are devout Muslims. In other words, they have the best of both worlds because God said so.

Then there are certain stories of the Prophets and rituals that make no sense whatsoever. For example, what would you say if your neighbor has put his foot on his son’s throat and is ready to slaughter him because his God ordered him to?

Will you believe that he is a prophet and follow his religion or will you call the authorities because he is a threat to society?

What will you say about your neighbor’s unmarried daughter who comes home with a son in her arms and claims that no man has touched her?

And then there is the story of Adam & Eve and Iblees. So if Iblees would have obeyed Allah SWT’s command and if Adam was not tempted by Iblees to eat the forbidden fruit, we would not be tested today? Would we all be living and chilling in heaven without being tempted to do evil stuff?

Then there is Hajj. What is the purpose of shaving your head and wearing Ihram? Why hit a rock with stones and pretend that it is iblees, a bizarre practice that leads to several people getting injured every year because they get on the head by pilgrims with poor aims.

What do we gain from fasting for a month and then resuming our normal routine? I have never seen any person get healthy in Ramzan or gain any long-term benefits.

There are of course many, many other examples. The more you think about these things, the more your faith weakens and religions starts to look an ancient cult that does not belong in a civilized world. That is why I try to not think about these things anymore.

If you disobey God by not believing in him despite having the knowledge of God then it doesn't matter what you do, you'll not be allowed into Heaven. Some good deeds won't cancel out the hefty bad deeds. You can research about this more and then you'll understand. It took me some time to understand this too.

The poor are being tested more, which is why they'll gain more in Heaven. How many rich people do you see who are actually devote Muslims?
A poor, devout muslim will be rewarded more than a rich, devout muslim from what I understand.

As for the prophet stories, those are believed by every monotheistic religion. Some aspects may be different but the concept is pretty much the same. It's all about faith as you've said. Either you believe it or you don't.

As for the story of Adam and Eve, it was destined to happen. Iblees was going to disobey Allah. It's like you asking "What if I wasn't born?" That question doesn't mean anything because you were destined to born which is why you're here today. If you look at the probability of you actually being alive (science wise), you'd think you had no chance of being alive as there were so many factors, which had to go your way. But at the end of the day you realise that you were destined to be born, so the probability of you being alive right now was actually 100%.

Hajj is supposed to help you repent. You are supposed to reflect upon your bad deeds and try to not repeat them. We have to shave our heads because Allah has ordered us to do so. Both Al-Bukhari and Muslim quote the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) as saying,“May Allah bless those who shaved (their head during Hajj).”

As for the injuries from the stones, there's a risk with everything. You can die by a brick smacking you on the face, you can die by slipping in the bathroom. The possibilities are endless. This practice is symbolic of Prophet Ibrahim's Hajj when he was tempted to disobey Allah's orders.

I'm surprised to see that you don't know the reason we fast. Becoming healthy is a by product of fasting but it's not our main objective. Fasting is supposed to help us reflect on what we've done and it helps us become more patient. When you're hungry, you tend to be more agitated so this helps you to control your anger and frustration.

I'm actually pretty surprised to see how weak your knowledge is about Islam. As a Muslim, you should know a lot more about your religion. Maybe that is the reason why you're questioning your religion, you don't have the knowledge. So I'd advise you to learn about Islam in detail so you can clear up whatever doubts you have.

 

[Mamoon]

As expected, you did not answer my questions. You sidestepped them and this always what happens when you ask questions when it comes to religion.

If you disobey God by not believing in him despite having the knowledge of God then it doesn't matter what you do, you'll not be allowed into Heaven. Some good deeds won't cancel out the hefty bad deeds. You can research about this more and then you'll understand. It took me some time to understand this too

I am not talking obedience and disobedience. I am asked a simple question which you chose to ignore. Let me ask it again - what is the fault of a person who is born in a Christian or a Hindu household?

Why is he/she expected to have knowledge of Islam and why is he/she expected to come to the conclusion the Islam is the only true religion?

Do children in Muslim households spend their formative years studying other religions or do they spend their formative years reading the Quran and being fed the idea that their religion is the only true one?

It is simply a matter of luck. If you were not born in a Muslim family, would you be a Muslim today? It is extremely, extremely unlikely, assuming that you are not a convert.

The poor are being tested more, which is why they'll gain more in Heaven. How many rich people do you see who are actually devote Muslims?
A poor, devout muslim will be rewarded more than a rich, devout muslim from what I understand.

There are plenty of rich people who are devout Muslims as well. They help the poor people and they also fulfill their other duties. Hence, as per the teachings of Islam, they will be rewarded in the afterlife.

So again, what was the fault of someone who was born in a poor family?

You say that a poor, devout Muslim will be rewarded more after death. However, the rich, devout Muslim will also be in heaven and he was also blessed in this world with money and comfort. Does this sound fair?

Again, as in the case of people born in other religions, it is a matter of pure luck.

As for the prophet stories, those are believed by every monotheistic religion. Some aspects may be different but the concept is pretty much the same. It's all about faith as you've said. Either you believe it or you don't

Yes they are not exclusive to Islam only, but I mentioned them because we are discussing Islam here. Yes it is blind faith, but the point is that faith does not hold up once you start asking questions and start to think too much.

As for the story of Adam and Eve, it was destined to happen. Iblees was going to disobey Allah. It's like you asking "What if I wasn't born?" That question doesn't mean anything because you were destined to born which is why you're here today. If you look at the probability of you actually being alive (science wise), you'd think you had no chance of being alive as there were so many factors, which had to go your way. But at the end of the day you realise that you were destined to be born, so the probability of you being alive right now was actually 100%.

I am not talking about birth. I am talking about the examination in the world, the challenge to resist the evil temptations of Iblees and stay true to the path laid out by the Allah SWT and His final messenger.

If Iblees would not have disobeyed Him and if he would not have tempted Adam to disobey Allah SWT, we would not be tested today. Again, of course it is something that He intended (which is why free will is an illusion), but the point is that mankind is suffering because of no fault of theirs.

We are failing in an examination that we did not choose to take.

Hajj is supposed to help you repent. You are supposed to reflect upon your bad deeds and try to not repeat them. We have to shave our heads because Allah has ordered us to do so. Both Al-Bukhari and Muslim quote the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) as saying,“May Allah bless those who shaved (their head during Hajj).”

Why can’t we repent with hair on our heads and by wearing regular clothes? Again, to say that Allah has ordered us to do is not the answer. Of course He did, but that is the whole point. When you ask questions and think your faith weakens and answers like “Allah ordered us to do so” do not make sense.

As for the injuries from the stones, there's a risk with everything. You can die by a brick smacking you on the face, you can die by slipping in the bathroom. The possibilities are endless. This practice is symbolic of Prophet Ibrahim's Hajj when he was tempted to disobey Allah's orders.

Going to the bathroom is a necessity, but performing a creepy ritual of hitting a rock with stones to punish the devil is not. It is a ritual that does not belong in a civilized world.

I'm surprised to see that you don't know the reason we fast. Becoming healthy is a by product of fasting but it's not our main objective. Fasting is supposed to help us reflect on what we've done and it helps us become more patient. When you're hungry, you tend to be more agitated so this helps you to control your anger and frustration.

What are the long-term benefits of fasting? Do we get patient for only a month only or does it have lasting implications?

Can you link to me any research that shows that Muslims are more patient than non-Muslims because they fast for one month every year?

Moreover, I have hardly noticed in any patience in others and myself during the month of Ramzaan. All I see is people getting lazy and unproductive because their sleep cycles are disrupted and they don’t have energy because of not eating and drinking for a very long period time.

I'm actually pretty surprised to see how weak your knowledge is about Islam. As a Muslim, you should know a lot more about your religion. Maybe that is the reason why you're questioning your religion, you don't have the knowledge. So I'd advise you to learn about Islam in detail so you can clear up whatever doubts you have.

The problem is that people who claim to have knowledge do not answer questions. They sidestep or deflect, and come up with illogical analogies and justifications. It is pretty clear that they don’t have answer to the questions that you pose.

Unfortunately, your response falls in the same category but I do appreciate the fact you took your time out to answer the questions.

Nevertheless, let’s recap: you did not explain why it is fair for someone to be born in a non-Muslim family or for someone to be born poor.

You did not explain why it is fair to see a great humanitarian, for example Bill Gates, burn in hell for eternity in spite of the fact that his services to humanity are greater than that of billions of Muslims.

You did not explain the wisdom behind shaving heads and wearing Ihram during Hajj. Your response was that because Allah SWT ordered us to, which unfortunately is not a valid response. We all know that, but it is the logic that we are interested in. Unfortunately, it appears that there is no logic.

You made an absurd analogy by comparing the ritual of pelting the Iblees rock with stones by comparing it to going to the bathroom.

You made a completely unverified claim that fasting helps us become more patient. There is no evidence or research to back up the claim and there is no evidence that shows that Muslims are indeed more patient than non-Muslims.

In conclusion, it brings me back to my original point. When you ask questions, your faith weakens because religion does not hold up to logic and common sense.

There are certain questions that cannot be answered and if you don’t want to lose faith, you are better off not asking those questions.

Cognition is the biggest threat to any religion. To be faithful, you need to develop a cult mentality.

 

[1ManArmy]

As expected, you did not answer my questions. You sidestepped them and this always what happens when you ask questions when it comes to religion.



I am not talking obedience and disobedience. I am asked a simple question which you chose to ignore. Let me ask it again - what is the fault of a person who is born in a Christian or a Hindu household?

Why is he/she expected to have knowledge of Islam and why is he/she expected to come to the conclusion the Islam is the only true religion?

Do children in Muslim households spend their formative years studying other religions or do they spend their formative years reading the Quran and being fed the idea that their religion is the only true one?

It is simply a matter of luck. If you were not born in a Muslim family, would you be a Muslim today? It is extremely, extremely unlikely, assuming that you are not a convert.



There are plenty of rich people who are devout Muslims as well. They help the poor people and they also fulfill their other duties. Hence, as per the teachings of Islam, they will be rewarded in the afterlife.

So again, what was the fault of someone who was born in a poor family?

You say that a poor, devout Muslim will be rewarded more after death. However, the rich, devout Muslim will also be in heaven and he was also blessed in this world with money and comfort. Does this sound fair?

Again, as in the case of people born in other religions, it is a matter of pure luck.



Yes they are not exclusive to Islam only, but I mentioned them because we are discussing Islam here. Yes it is blind faith, but the point is that faith does not hold up once you start asking questions and start to think too much.



I am not talking about birth. I am talking about the examination in the world, the challenge to resist the evil temptations of Iblees and stay true to the path laid out by the Allah SWT and His final messenger.

If Iblees would not have disobeyed Him and if he would not have tempted Adam to disobey Allah SWT, we would not be tested today. Again, of course it is something that He intended (which is why free will is an illusion), but the point is that mankind is suffering because of no fault of theirs.

We are failing in an examination that we did not choose to take.



Why can’t we repent with hair on our heads and by wearing regular clothes? Again, to say that Allah has ordered us to do is not the answer. Of course He did, but that is the whole point. When you ask questions and think your faith weakens and answers like “Allah ordered us to do so” do not make sense.



Going to the bathroom is a necessity, but performing a creepy ritual of hitting a rock with stones to punish the devil is not. It is a ritual that does not belong in a civilized world.



What are the long-term benefits of fasting? Do we get patient for only a month only or does it have lasting implications?

Can you link to me any research that shows that Muslims are more patient than non-Muslims because they fast for one month every year?

Moreover, I have hardly noticed in any patience in others and myself during the month of Ramzaan. All I see is people getting lazy and unproductive because their sleep cycles are disrupted and they don’t have energy because of not eating and drinking for a very long period time.



The problem is that people who claim to have knowledge do not answer questions. They sidestep or deflect, and come up with illogical analogies and justifications. It is pretty clear that they don’t have answer to the questions that you pose.

Unfortunately, your response falls in the same category but I do appreciate the fact you took your time out to answer the questions.

Nevertheless, let’s recap: you did not explain why it is fair for someone to be born in a non-Muslim family or for someone to be born poor.

You did not explain why it is fair to see a great humanitarian, for example Bill Gates, burn in hell for eternity in spite of the fact that his services to humanity are greater than that of billions of Muslims.

You did not explain the wisdom behind shaving heads and wearing Ihram during Hajj. Your response was that because Allah SWT ordered us to, which unfortunately is not a valid response. We all know that, but it is the logic that we are interested in. Unfortunately, it appears that there is no logic.

You made an absurd analogy by comparing the ritual of pelting the Iblees rock with stones by comparing it to going to the bathroom.

You made a completely unverified claim that fasting helps us become more patient. There is no evidence or research to back up the claim and there is no evidence that shows that Muslims are indeed more patient than non-Muslims.

In conclusion, it brings me back to my original point. When you ask questions, your faith weakens because religion does not hold up to logic and common sense.

There are certain questions that cannot be answered and if you don’t want to lose faith, you are better off not asking those questions.

Cognition is the biggest threat to any religion. To be faithful, you need to develop a cult mentality.

I've said whatever I had to say. Nothing more to add. If you really care about your faith then you should consult with an Islamic scholar and ask your questions to him. If you're still not satisfied then you just have to accept it. Some questions just don't get answered.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

It doesn't surprise me people whom are deeply disturbed and insecure have taken this thread as an opportunity to diss religion. Don't like religion, move on. However no one has addressed the main point in the OP. Here it is:

"All translated classic religious books should be "re-evaluated"

China is seeking to alter translations, not the original text, which as far as the Qur'an is concerned, is impossible.

Only the insecure and deeply depressive are attempting to deviate this thread with attention seeking nonsense which is designed to be deliberately controversial, obtrusive, and combative. Such people will never find internal peace - they just like to think they do.

Is that why there are 1000 word essays in posts following this one, prompted by an Indian who likes to quote from Islamic scriptures sourced from anti-Islam sites?

I am still trying to link this with the OP article about China, but am struggling to make the connection.

 

[MenInG]

Is that why there are 1000 word essays in posts following this one, prompted by an Indian who likes to quote from Islamic scriptures sourced from anti-Islam sites?

I am still trying to link this with the OP article about China, but am struggling to make the connection.

To be honest, so am I.

In fact this whole thread seems to have been infested with everything other than what China is doing!

 

[Musakhel]

It is not just the supposed errors in the Quran per se, but the several flaws in the religion itself. I don’t pay too much heed to supposed errors and contradictions because the verses are so vague that they can be interpreted to your convenience.

As far as the general flaws in religion are concerned, the fundamental belief in Islam is that only Muslims are eligible to go to heaven, and if you do not have faith in Allah SWT and his final messenger, you will not be rewarded in the afterlife regardless of your service to humanity.

For example, someone like Bill Gates has helped eradicate polio in all but three countries. He has done mankind greater service than billions of Muslims but since he is not a Muslim, he will be barbecued in hell after he dies. Does that sound fair and reasonable? To me it doesn’t.

Secondly, what is the fault of a person who is born in a Christian or a Hindu family? Why is he supposed to research about Islam and come to the conclusion that Islam is the only true religion? Why are Muslims not supposed to study other religions and then decide for themselves that Islam is the only true religion?

Furthermore, what is the fault of the people who are handicapped or who are born in a poor family? We are told that they will be rewarded in the afterlife, but then there are Muslims in the world who are blessed with everything but will still be rewarded in the afterlife because they are devout Muslims. In other words, they have the best of both worlds because God said so.

Then there are certain stories of the Prophets and rituals that make no sense whatsoever. For example, what would you say if your neighbor has put his foot on his son’s throat and is ready to slaughter him because his God ordered him to?

Will you believe that he is a prophet and follow his religion or will you call the authorities because he is a threat to society?

What will you say about your neighbor’s unmarried daughter who comes home with a son in her arms and claims that no man has touched her?

And then there is the story of Adam & Eve and Iblees. So if Iblees would have obeyed Allah SWT’s command and if Adam was not tempted by Iblees to eat the forbidden fruit, we would not be tested today? Would we all be living and chilling in heaven without being tempted to do evil stuff?

Then there is Hajj. What is the purpose of shaving your head and wearing Ihram? Why hit a rock with stones and pretend that it is iblees, a bizarre practice that leads to several people getting injured every year because they get on the head by pilgrims with poor aims.

What do we gain from fasting for a month and then resuming our normal routine? I have never seen any person get healthy in Ramzan or gain any long-term benefits.

There are of course many, many other examples. The more you think about these things, the more your faith weakens and religions starts to look an ancient cult that does not belong in a civilized world. That is why I try to not think about these things anymore.

I'll just reply to the part regarding salvation, since this is always brought up, The great humanitarian works of non muslims, does not signify anything before Allah, since he is the one that enabled them to do so in the first place and we know this from Quran where Allah mentions that he created us and what we do I.e our Actions, it is The greatest failure of any human being who does good but fails to Acknowledge the One without Which nothing they do would be possible, since These great Humanitarian Non muslims failed to Acknowledge the creator, so to Shall Allah not acknowledge their good deeds on Judgement day.

Say (O Muhammad SAW): Shall We tell you the greatest losers in respect of (their) deeds?
Those whose efforts have been wasted in this life while they thought that they were acquiring good by their deeds!
They are those who deny the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of their Lord and the Meeting with Him (in the Hereafter). So their works are in vain, and on the Day of Resurrection, We shall not give them any weight”
[al-Kahf 18:103-105].

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

To be honest, so am I.

In fact this whole thread seems to have been infested with everything other than what China is doing!

I have no problem with people questioning religion, especially Islam as we can expect on Pakistani sites, but if you have a general dilemma about your faith, why not open a dedicated thread to the aspect you are concerned about?

This thread was purportedly about the Chinese rewriting the Quran and the Bible, do we really need to hear musings about posters personal anguish over hypothetical afterlife scenarios? In this thread?

 

[troodon]

I'll just reply to the part regarding salvation, since this is always brought up, The great humanitarian works of non muslims, does not signify anything before Allah, since he is the one that enabled them to do so in the first place and we know this from Quran where Allah mentions that he created us and what we do I.e our Actions, it is The greatest failure of any human being who does good but fails to Acknowledge the One without Which nothing they do would be possible, since These great Humanitarian Non muslims failed to Acknowledge the creator, so to Shall Allah not acknowledge their good deeds on Judgement day.

Say (O Muhammad SAW): Shall We tell you the greatest losers in respect of (their) deeds?
Those whose efforts have been wasted in this life while they thought that they were acquiring good by their deeds!
They are those who deny the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of their Lord and the Meeting with Him (in the Hereafter). So their works are in vain, and on the Day of Resurrection, We shall not give them any weight”
[al-Kahf 18:103-105].

So all bad deeds that people do are also enabled by Allah?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

^ Case in point.

 

[Musakhel]

So all bad deeds that people do are also enabled by Allah?

Yes, But there is choice to do good or bad, That is why The scholars say if you Do good for Allah than your reward is with Allah, if you do it for anything else than ask for your reward from whom you done it for.

https://youtu.be/EJqxs_tzhfE

This Sheikh explains better than I can.

 

[troodon]

Yes, But there is choice to do good or bad, That is why The scholars say if you Do good for Allah than your reward is with Allah, if you do it for anything else than ask for your reward from whom you done it for.

https://youtu.be/EJqxs_tzhfE

This Sheikh explains better than I can.

So It is your choice then. Allah has no control over what you do. This means Allah does not know the future.

But Quran says Allah has already written for you what you do and whether you go to Hell or Heaven before you were born.

 

[Musakhel]

So It is your choice then. Allah has no control over what you do. This means Allah does not know the future.

But Quran says Allah has already written for you what you do and whether you go to Hell or Heaven before you were born.

Allah creates the choices, you choose them, At any moment in time Allah creates X number of choices for you, you choose one that is your free will, Allah knows what you will choose but does not force you to choose that particular choice.

Yes Because Allah Has knowledge over All things he knows which of his creation will be in hell or heaven, before they are even created.

 

[1ManArmy]

So It is your choice then. Allah has no control over what you do. This means Allah does not know the future.

But Quran says Allah has already written for you what you do and whether you go to Hell or Heaven before you were born.

Just because Allah doesn't decide what you do doesn't mean he doesn't know what you will do.

You have freewill but Allah is aware of how you're going to use that freewill.

 

[Mamoon]

Free will cannot exist when God has knowledge of your will.

 

[andy0204]

If you dont have faith then you are not allowed to give your opinion.

 

[DeadBall]

If you dont have faith then you are not allowed to give your opinion.

On what?

 

[cric_man]

Free will cannot exist when God has knowledge of your will.

I have always struggled with that. I have found Dr Israr's commentary on the subject to be most pertinent.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/OnXJFcPLz1E" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[Musakhel]

Free will cannot exist when God has knowledge of your will.

That would be true, If God compelled you to do your deeds, But We experience Free will as a reality because we don't feel compelled to do what we choose to do.

What muslims don't believe in is that Man Creates His own Intention and choices, God Creates our choices and intentions but doesn't force us to act upon them, that Is free will as the Ashari scholars explain it to the best of my knowledge.

 

[Mamoon]

I have always struggled with that. I have found Dr Israr's commentary on the subject to be most pertinent.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/OnXJFcPLz1E" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Yes I have seen this before. Israr Ahmed was a very charismatic and captivating scholar. Always great to listen to.

 

[Mamoon]

That would be true, If God compelled you to do your deeds, But We experience Free will as a reality because we don't feel compelled to do what we choose to do.

What muslims don't believe in is that Man Creates His own Intention and choices, God Creates our choices and intentions but doesn't force us to act upon them, that Is free will as the Ashari scholars explain it to the best of my knowledge.

You are describing destiny and that makes free will an illusion. God does not compel us to do certain deeds, but He knows that we will do it.

That means that He was the one to make that choice for us and we then make the same choice to fulfill our destiny.

For example, if I am given a choice between X and Y and I choose X, is it my free will or is it my destiny to choose X?

Since Allah knows that I will choose X, that means that my decision to choose X has been determined already.

The concept of destiny and free will cannot coexist. Either there is no destiny or there is no free will.

 

[Musakhel]

You are describing destiny and that makes free will an illusion. God does not compel us to do certain deeds, but He knows that we will do it.

That means that He was the one to make that choice for us and we then make the same choice to fulfill our destiny.

For example, if I am given a choice between X and Y and I choose X, is it my free will or is it my destiny to choose X?

Since Allah knows that I will choose X, that means that my decision to choose X has been determined already.

The concept of destiny and free will cannot coexist. Either there is no destiny or there is no free will.

Man does not Have complete free will, neither does he not have any free will, sounds confusing but Imam Ali explains it best.

Someone asked him “O Imam which of my actions are free will and which are predestined?" To which Imam replied, “Lift your right leg” the man did it and then he was told “that is free will”. Then the Imam said to “lift the other as well.” which obviously the man could not. To which Imam replied, “That is your predestination

The free will that we do have is what we are accountable for.

 

[PakLFC]

The noble Qur'an has been memorised in millions of hearts around the world. The word of Allah in it's truest form is available in it's original text in all countries so rewriting it will have no effect at all. The mostly English written Bible which is impossible to memorise is under much greater threat here. Many years back Christian missionaries tried the same tactic writing a book called "The True Furqan" that they passed on as the real Qur'an. Needless to say their plan completely flopped to the point that the missionaries were humiliated. Allah has promised to preserve the Qur'an until near the end of time irrespective of how hard the enemies of Islam try. China's attempts will fail too.

 

[Mamoon]

Man does not Have complete free will, neither does he not have any free will, sounds confusing but Imam Ali explains it best.

Someone asked him “O Imam which of my actions are free will and which are predestined?" To which Imam replied, “Lift your right leg” the man did it and then he was told “that is free will”. Then the Imam said to “lift the other as well.” which obviously the man could not. To which Imam replied, “That is your predestination

The free will that we do have is what we are accountable for.

But Allah knew that Ali would ask the man to lift his right leg (and not left leg) and thus the man would oblige by lifting his right leg and not left leg.

So was it really the man’s decision to lift his right leg and was it really Ali’s decision to ask the man to lift his right leg?

Both decisions were already taken because Allah had prior knowledge, and hence both Ali and the man fulfilled their destiny.

 

[Musakhel]

But Allah knew that Ali would ask the man to lift his right leg (and not left leg) and thus the man would oblige by lifting his right leg and not left leg.

So was it really the man’s decision to lift his right leg and was it really Ali’s decision to ask the man to lift his right leg?

Both decisions were already taken because Allah had prior knowledge, and hence both Ali and the man fulfilled their destiny.

Exactly that Is the extent of our free will, what we experience of when we are in control of our actions that is our free will, Allah having Full knowledge of what we will choose does not nullify our ability to choose, whatever we choose, Allah knows beforehand, so whatever your choice it was your destiny, but you still choose it.

 

[Mamoon]

Exactly that Is the extent of our free will, what we experience of when we are in control of our actions that is our free will, Allah having Full knowledge of what we will choose does not nullify our ability to choose, whatever we choose, Allah knows beforehand, so whatever your choice it was your destiny, but you still choose it.

But we choose because it is our destiny. In other words, our choice does not determine our destiny; our destiny determines our choice.

Hence, our free will is an illusion. We are not in control of our actions. We just think that we are.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

If you dont have faith then you are not allowed to give your opinion.

If you have faith in her Majesty's empire then you are free to give opinion on every subject since the British opinion is clearly respected worldwide.

 

[Robert]

The noble Qur'an has been memorised in millions of hearts around the world. The word of Allah in it's truest form is available in it's original text in all countries so rewriting it will have no effect at all. The mostly English written Bible which is impossible to memorise is under much greater threat here. Many years back Christian missionaries tried the same tactic writing a book called "The True Furqan" that they passed on as the real Qur'an. Needless to say their plan completely flopped to the point that the missionaries were humiliated. Allah has promised to preserve the Qur'an until near the end of time irrespective of how hard the enemies of Islam try. China's attempts will fail too.

Unsure why you think the Bible is impossible to memorise.

It’s just that nobody would bother. There isn’t any point. If you want to know something, just look it up.

You could change a lot of verses and the central theme would still remain - treat others as you would like them to treat yourself, forgive those who trespass against you, ask Jesus for forgiveness from sin in order to gain salvation.

 

[daytrader]

I actually welcome this challenge by China. This could be God's will for some people to read and understand the Quran eventhough their intentions are to change it

 

[andy0204]

On what?

Obviously Allah.

 

[andy0204]

If you have faith in her Majesty's empire then you are free to give opinion on every subject since the British opinion is clearly respected worldwide.

This is not freedom of speech,its about religion,some questions cannot be answered.

 

[CricketCartoons]

If you dont have faith then you are not allowed to give your opinion.

If I am not a communist, I am not allowed to give opinion on communism, my right wing friend?

 

[Musakhel]

But we choose because it is our destiny. In other words, our choice does not determine our destiny; our destiny determines our choice.

Hence, our free will is an illusion. We are not in control of our actions. We just think that we are.

The reality of providence is conveyed to us through the literary images of the Pen, the Preserved Tablet, and the records of deeds. Allah decreed all things on the Preserved Tablet, which in an absolute sense does not change. However, the fulfillment of those decrees can change based upon the actions we take. If Allah decreed an evil fate for us, He may change it if we sincerely supplicate to him or perform a good deed for His sake. Our God-given will, subordinate to the will of Allah, directs the destiny Allah brings into being for us. All people ultimately have two possible destinations decreed in the afterlife, Paradise or Hellfire, and only one of them will be fulfilled.

These literary images are the best and easiest way to understand what is an otherwise complicated philosophical controversy. In light of this, the scholars told us to suspend judgment at the texts and to avoid the hazards of debating this topic.

An extract from an essay on the subject of Qadr and free will, you can read the full article here: https://yaqeeninstitute.org/justin-...e-decree-and-free-will-in-islam/#.Xgx6LrenyDY

 

[andy0204]

If I am not a communist, I am not allowed to give opinion on communism, my right wing friend?

I was reading some of the posters and they were questioning on Quran so I get angry about it,And Iam not leftist,liberal,extremists,right wing my friend.
Iam just a common man.

 

[1ManArmy]

If I am not a communist, I am not allowed to give opinion on communism, my right wing friend?

If you don't have knowledge about something then you can't give your opinion on it.

If a Hindu, who doesn't know much about Christianity, tries to give his opinions on Christianity then it won't work.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

If you don't have knowledge about something then you can't give your opinion on it.

If a Hindu, who doesn't know much about Christianity, tries to give his opinions on Christianity then it won't work.

Yes it will if the Hindu has a gun. Or even if he has 1000 rupees. With the right leverage you can spout any nonsense you like and pass it as opinion.

 

[Prince of Pakistan]

As expected, you did not answer my questions. You sidestepped them and this always what happens when you ask questions when it comes to religion.



I am not talking obedience and disobedience. I am asked a simple question which you chose to ignore. Let me ask it again - what is the fault of a person who is born in a Christian or a Hindu household?

Why is he/she expected to have knowledge of Islam and why is he/she expected to come to the conclusion the Islam is the only true religion?

Do children in Muslim households spend their formative years studying other religions or do they spend their formative years reading the Quran and being fed the idea that their religion is the only true one?

It is simply a matter of luck. If you were not born in a Muslim family, would you be a Muslim today? It is extremely, extremely unlikely, assuming that you are not a convert.



There are plenty of rich people who are devout Muslims as well. They help the poor people and they also fulfill their other duties. Hence, as per the teachings of Islam, they will be rewarded in the afterlife.

So again, what was the fault of someone who was born in a poor family?

You say that a poor, devout Muslim will be rewarded more after death. However, the rich, devout Muslim will also be in heaven and he was also blessed in this world with money and comfort. Does this sound fair?

Again, as in the case of people born in other religions, it is a matter of pure luck.



Yes they are not exclusive to Islam only, but I mentioned them because we are discussing Islam here. Yes it is blind faith, but the point is that faith does not hold up once you start asking questions and start to think too much.



I am not talking about birth. I am talking about the examination in the world, the challenge to resist the evil temptations of Iblees and stay true to the path laid out by the Allah SWT and His final messenger.

If Iblees would not have disobeyed Him and if he would not have tempted Adam to disobey Allah SWT, we would not be tested today. Again, of course it is something that He intended (which is why free will is an illusion), but the point is that mankind is suffering because of no fault of theirs.

We are failing in an examination that we did not choose to take.



Why can’t we repent with hair on our heads and by wearing regular clothes? Again, to say that Allah has ordered us to do is not the answer. Of course He did, but that is the whole point. When you ask questions and think your faith weakens and answers like “Allah ordered us to do so” do not make sense.



Going to the bathroom is a necessity, but performing a creepy ritual of hitting a rock with stones to punish the devil is not. It is a ritual that does not belong in a civilized world.



What are the long-term benefits of fasting? Do we get patient for only a month only or does it have lasting implications?

Can you link to me any research that shows that Muslims are more patient than non-Muslims because they fast for one month every year?

Moreover, I have hardly noticed in any patience in others and myself during the month of Ramzaan. All I see is people getting lazy and unproductive because their sleep cycles are disrupted and they don’t have energy because of not eating and drinking for a very long period time.



The problem is that people who claim to have knowledge do not answer questions. They sidestep or deflect, and come up with illogical analogies and justifications. It is pretty clear that they don’t have answer to the questions that you pose.

Unfortunately, your response falls in the same category but I do appreciate the fact you took your time out to answer the questions.

Nevertheless, let’s recap: you did not explain why it is fair for someone to be born in a non-Muslim family or for someone to be born poor.

You did not explain why it is fair to see a great humanitarian, for example Bill Gates, burn in hell for eternity in spite of the fact that his services to humanity are greater than that of billions of Muslims.

You did not explain the wisdom behind shaving heads and wearing Ihram during Hajj. Your response was that because Allah SWT ordered us to, which unfortunately is not a valid response. We all know that, but it is the logic that we are interested in. Unfortunately, it appears that there is no logic.

You made an absurd analogy by comparing the ritual of pelting the Iblees rock with stones by comparing it to going to the bathroom.

You made a completely unverified claim that fasting helps us become more patient. There is no evidence or research to back up the claim and there is no evidence that shows that Muslims are indeed more patient than non-Muslims.

In conclusion, it brings me back to my original point. When you ask questions, your faith weakens because religion does not hold up to logic and common sense.

There are certain questions that cannot be answered and if you don’t want to lose faith, you are better off not asking those questions.

Cognition is the biggest threat to any religion. To be faithful, you need to develop a cult mentality.

As far as I know shirk is the worst possible sin which can't be forgiven and will cost you heaven at any cost. There is certainly hope for Jews, Christians and others who believe in one God. But Hindus who do shirk everyday are hopeless.

The shirk criteria makes sense to me. The rest of the sins can be forgiven if one tries hard, but shirk is something God despises regardless of someones faith or deeds.

So in theory people like Bill Gates or others who believe in a God have a chance. It's Rabb ul alimeen after all and not Rabb ul muslimeen.

 

[Mamoon]

The reality of providence is conveyed to us through the literary images of the Pen, the Preserved Tablet, and the records of deeds. Allah decreed all things on the Preserved Tablet, which in an absolute sense does not change. However, the fulfillment of those decrees can change based upon the actions we take. If Allah decreed an evil fate for us, He may change it if we sincerely supplicate to him or perform a good deed for His sake. Our God-given will, subordinate to the will of Allah, directs the destiny Allah brings into being for us. All people ultimately have two possible destinations decreed in the afterlife, Paradise or Hellfire, and only one of them will be fulfilled.

These literary images are the best and easiest way to understand what is an otherwise complicated philosophical controversy. In light of this, the scholars told us to suspend judgment at the texts and to avoid the hazards of debating this topic.

An extract from an essay on the subject of Qadr and free will, you can read the full article here: https://yaqeeninstitute.org/justin-...e-decree-and-free-will-in-islam/#.Xgx6LrenyDY

But Allah has knowledge of whether we will sincerely supplicate and perform a good deed or not.

Since He has knowledge of it, it means that He is the one to decide whether a person will sincerely supplicate and perform a good deed or not.

He is the one to decide because nothing happens without His command. Hence, he chooses who goes astray and who follows the right path, while the person himself is living under the illusion that he is making the choice out of his/own freedom.

If Allah knows that I will commit an evil act 10 years from now then I am not responsible for that act simply because I am following my destiny which has been determined by Him.

Free will vs destiny is a fundamental paradox in religion and people are unable to satisfactorily reconcile the two because it is not possible. The two cannot coexist.

If you believe in destiny then it is not possible to have a free will, and if you have free will then it is not possible to believe in destiny.

I believe we are going in circles now so perhaps it is time to agree to disagree.

 

[Mamoon]

As far as I know shirk is the worst possible sin which can't be forgiven and will cost you heaven at any cost. There is certainly hope for Jews, Christians and others who believe in one God. But Hindus who do shirk everyday are hopeless.

The shirk criteria makes sense to me. The rest of the sins can be forgiven if one tries hard, but shirk is something God despises regardless of someones faith or deeds.

So in theory people like Bill Gates or others who believe in a God have a chance. It's Rabb ul alimeen after all and not Rabb ul muslimeen.

Christians commit shirk. Catholics, Protestants and the Eastern Orthodox all believe that Jesus is divine.

Furthermore, Islam is an exclusive religion. To enter heaven, you have to be a Muslim. To be a Muslim, you have to believe in the six fundamentals which include belief in Prophet Muhammad PBUH and Quran.

Hence, regardless of how great your service is to humanity, if you do not believe in Muhammad PBUH and the Quran, you are condemned to an eternity in Hell.