Has the Holy Quran undergone any changes in its history?

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Of course you can.

If you lack integrity.

When evidence is black and white, then integrity doesn't come into it. It is true or it isn't.

Not everything is black and white.

 

[miandadrules]

When evidence is black and white, then integrity doesn't come into it. It is true or it isn't.

Not everything is black and white.

It certainly does come in to it.

Especially if one chooses to ignore the blatantly black and white.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

It certainly does come in to it.

Especially if one chooses to ignore the blatantly black and white.

Only a fool needs to argue over what is blatantly black and white.

 

[miandadrules]

Only a fool needs to argue over what is blatantly black and white.

Exactly.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Exactly.

Precisely.

 

[miandadrules]

Precisely.

Not for you though,

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Not for you though,

Prove it with evidence.

 

[miandadrules]

Prove it with evidence.

You just did it for me Genius.

 

[kk1992]

Why do most atheist comes off of as rude?

If you do not believe in religion then why get in debate with someone who does and why do you need an urge to try to discredit one?

Promoting religion should be private matter then go on about on trying to prove it fake or discredit it.

 

[troodon]

Why do most atheist comes off of as rude?

If you do not believe in religion then why get in debate with someone who does and why do you need an urge to try to discredit one?

Promoting religion should be private matter then go on about on trying to prove it fake or discredit it.

Religious folks defend their religion and seek conversion based on false claims. So it becomes the duty of educated folk to expose them and their claims.


World will be a better place without religion.

 

[Bigboii]

This is one of those threads where one should stay away because nothing good will come out of it believers will hopefully still believe and non-believers (may Allah guide tham) will likely still believe in what they believe

 

[from_da_lost_dim3nsion]

As Muslims it is our belief that Quran has never been tempered with . It has stayed unchanged throughout history . The whole reason for the Quran was that other religious texts have been changed and tempered with by kings and clergy to for their benefits. Quran OTOH was preserved because of people who literally memorized all of it(huffaz) . Not sure how much of this is historically accurate but it seems pretty on point considering there really aren't any other versions of the arabic quran , there might be different interpretations of it but teh arabic text has remained the same AFAIK.

 

[IAJ]

Religious folks defend their religion and seek conversion based on false claims. So it becomes the duty of educated folk to expose them and their claims.


World will be a better place without religion.

Edcated people? What education are you talking about? 5-7 years at uni? And you call it educated people.

Many religious scholars who have studied Islam for 70-80 years still call themselves «only pupils» and you are talking about some nobodies who have a some years as higher education as «educated people». And the video of some kids you posted above. What was that? Do you even know the basics beliefs of Islam? And how the Isnad works?

Since you like doing as many NON-muslims do, pick up random videos and post them here and quoting out of context texts I will give you link to reliable website. There you will have proper scholars, not some kids trying to act like some scholars.

But you are only here for «shararat», that is why you google the stuff you want to post here. You are clearly not one who really want to learn about Islam. Otherwise you would have not posted random stuff here.

 

[kk1992]

Religious folks defend their religion and seek conversion based on false claims. So it becomes the duty of educated folk to expose them and their claims.


World will be a better place without religion.

The dumbest redundant argument you have made to defend your beliefs.

Educated folks, there are plenty of educated folks who believe in religion, it does not make them less educated nor it degrade their degrees. An over used argument, mostly by those, who themselves do not understand atheism and are extremist atheist.

False claim, it is a belief and faith, neither you can denounce it to be false nor claim it to be true, hence religion.

So basically, you are promoting your "religion", which is atheism and trying to act similar way as those who you are criticizing for trying to promote their religion.

And it seem, your only issue is with one particular religion, not that it matter, but it should be highlighted for people to understand the complete picture.

 

[miandadrules]

Edcated people? What education are you talking about? 5-7 years at uni? And you call it educated people.

Many religious scholars who have studied Islam for 70-80 years still call themselves «only pupils» and you are talking about some nobodies who have a some years as higher education as «educated people». And the video of some kids you posted above. What was that? Do you even know the basics beliefs of Islam? And how the Isnad works?

Since you like doing as many NON-muslims do, pick up random videos and post them here and quoting out of context texts I will give you link to reliable website. There you will have proper scholars, not some kids trying to act like some scholars.

But you are only here for «shararat», that is why you google the stuff you want to post here. You are clearly not one who really want to learn about Islam. Otherwise you would have not posted random stuff here.

On a serious note.

How much have you studied? Islam I mean.

 

[kk1992]

Edcated people? What education are you talking about? 5-7 years at uni? And you call it educated people.

Many religious scholars who have studied Islam for 70-80 years still call themselves «only pupils» and you are talking about some nobodies who have a some years as higher education as «educated people». And the video of some kids you posted above. What was that? Do you even know the basics beliefs of Islam? And how the Isnad works?

Since you like doing as many NON-muslims do, pick up random videos and post them here and quoting out of context texts I will give you link to reliable website. There you will have proper scholars, not some kids trying to act like some scholars.

But you are only here for «shararat», that is why you google the stuff you want to post here. You are clearly not one who really want to learn about Islam. Otherwise you would have not posted random stuff here.

Seen doing plenty of time Copying and Pasting stuff without clearly understanding Islam and Quran.

 

[miandadrules]

Seen doing plenty of time Copying and Pasting stuff without clearly understanding Islam and Quran.

That’s very interesting.

Can you give us examples of this and explain the context?

That will clear up all the confusion.

 

[kk1992]

That’s very interesting.

Can you give us examples of this and explain the context?

That will clear up all the confusion.

Why? What difference would it make it to you? You have made up your mind to discredit a religion and I do not need to discredit yours, known as Atheism, nor I need to defend mine, I believe what I believe.

A simple concept to comprehend.

 

[miandadrules]

Why? What difference would it make it to you? You have made up your mind to discredit a religion and I do not need to discredit yours, known as Atheism, nor I need to defend mine, I believe what I believe.

A simple concept to comprehend.

I thought as much.

Doesn’t it ring alarm bells when your first act when hearing a critique is not to study and if possible to counter, but rather to immediately attack the messenger.

An ad hominem, seems to be the standard approach when dealing with believers.

Did you manage to get to grips with the other concept?

 

[IAJ]

On a serious note.

How much have you studied? Islam I mean.

I am a nobody, but I ask the people of knowledge when I don’t know. And it should be like that. If I am not feeling well I go to a reliable doctor. I don’t start treating myself. I can Google the stuff but will that be enough? Don’t think so.

I just get irritated when people just post random stuff because on the web you will find everything you ask for.

 

[miandadrules]

I am a nobody, but I ask the people of knowledge when I don’t know. And it should be like that. If I am not feeling well I go to a reliable doctor. I don’t start treating myself. I can Google the stuff but will that be enough? Don’t think so.

I just get irritated when people just post random stuff because on the web you will find everything you ask for.

And have you ever questioned or researched what these learned scholars teach you?

Depends what you google. If you google official guidelines and peer-reviewed papers you’ll probably have a greater understanding than if you just accept what the Dr tells you.

It’s an emotive subject, and because of this we’re unlikely to have an open, honest discussion. Simply because the stakes are too high.

 

[kk1992]

I thought as much.

Doesn’t it ring alarm bells when your first act when hearing a critique is not to study and if possible to counter, but rather to immediately attack the messenger.

An ad hominem, seems to be the standard approach when dealing with believers.

Did you manage to get to grips with the other concept?

Lol, there you go again.

You’re a messenger now?

Let me simplify again for you.

I’m not here to convert or defend Islam for that matter any religion nor I’m here to criticize your religion, Atheism.

Critique Islam? a religion, a belief? It’s a belief, just like your belief, Atheism.

 

[Nadeemp]

I have made peace with the fact that the core essence of religion is faith, and faith can only be blind. Hence, I no longer question things like I used to before and thus I feel content.

However, I cannot convince or provide proof that I am on the right path. I do acknowledge that like 99% of the people, I wouldn’t have been a Muslim if I wasn’t born in a Muslim family. It is simply a matter of luck - we are all Muslims by fluke, just like people are Christian, Jews and Hindus by fluke.

That is why I have great respect for people who convert to other religions. It is a very difficult decision and takes a lot of courage.

I find all these discussions futile. The people in this thread who are trying to prove that Quran is the word of God would have found themselves on the other side of the debate if they were born in a Christian or a Hindu family, or a family with atheist beliefs.

No religion can be proved. It is impossible. That is why it is called faith - you either believe or you don’t. The vast majority of us believe because we have been programmed to believe in it.

How many of us have cared to read into other religions with an open mind? It is easy to claim over the Internet, but in real life, hardly any Muslim has read the Bible or the Vedas with an open mind and has then come to the conclusion that Islam is the only true religion.

Great post

 

[troodon]

The dumbest redundant argument you have made to defend your beliefs.

Educated folks, there are plenty of educated folks who believe in religion, it does not make them less educated nor it degrade their degrees. An over used argument, mostly by those, who themselves do not understand atheism and are extremist atheist.

False claim, it is a belief and faith, neither you can denounce it to be false nor claim it to be true, hence religion.

So basically, you are promoting your "religion", which is atheism and trying to act similar way as those who you are criticizing for trying to promote their religion.

And it seem, your only issue is with one particular religion, not that it matter, but it should be highlighted for people to understand the complete picture.

An educated religious man willfully chooses to ignore the false claims in their religious scriptures. It does not take a rocket scientist to know that.

Atheism is not a religion. We do not pray to any sky God. It is just the rejection of an all powerful, all knowing being due to lack of evidence.

My issue is with all religions. Not just Islam or Hinduism. If this was a Jewish board, I would be arguing against their faith too. This is a predominantly Muslim poster board. Topics are discussed on Islam.

 

[Tubs]

This is the typical lazy and unintelligent argument used to prove that Quran is the word of God.

The Quran is not easy to memorize. Any book can be memorized if you practice. The reason why almost every Muslim has learned several verses by heart is because of repeated learning during their childhood years.

Anything part of your Long-term memory cannot be altered. That is why it is part of your long-term memory. I can recall some of the verses of Quran just like I can recall Baa Baa Black Sheep, Humpty Dumpty and Wheels on the Bus even though it has been decades since I have read them.

As I said, long-term memory cannot be altered but it can be forgotten. It is actually still there but you are unable to recall them. That is why quite a few Hafiz-e-Quran forget some of the verses when they don’t rehearse regularly.

Secondly, the quality of Arabic and prose is no proof that it is the word of God. Look at the works of high fantasy authors like Tolkien and Martin. When you read LOTR and ASOIAF, it is hard to believe that a human mind is capable of such imagination.

Not only have they created new worlds, new religions, new cultures etc., in Tolkien’s case, he has constructed new languages with proper grammar rules. A normal person cannot construct five words.

Had they written their work 2,000 years ago and declared it the word of God where He described a different world that He created, thousands of people would have believed him.

The invention of religions and the occurrences has stopped with the advent of modern science and technology. Moses could convince his people in 1350 BCE that he turned his stick into a snake but people cannot do it in 2019.

Similarly, Jesus could walk on water then but no one can do it now. Someone will upload his video on YouTube and it will be exposed as a hoax.

Abraham was ready to slaughter his son because God ordered him to do so, but if someone does that today he will end up in an asylum.

There are two main reasons why so many people of Prophet Muhammad’s time believed that Quran is the word.

(1) the source
(2) the message

The source, i.e. Prophet Muhammad, was considered a man of great integrity and honor long before he declared himself as the final messenger of God. He was trustworthy and no one considered him to be a liar, and thus, when he declared his prophethood, a lot of his close companions and other people immediately joined him because they had the conviction that he would never lie and is not someone who is interested in power and glory.

If he did not have that reputation, his companions would have been far ore skeptical in accepting his message.

The message, i.e. the teachings of the Quran. In a society where the disparity between the rich and the poor was immense, slavery was widespread and baby girls were buried alive, a man preaching equality and declaring that in God’s eyes a master is no better than his slave, the message of Quran was very attractive and uplifting for the destitute, the oppressed and the slaves of that society.

Someone like Bilal, the slave of Umayyah was not attracted to the Quran because of the standard of Arabic and the prose; he was attracted to the Quran because it was an opportunity for him to escape slavery.

That is why the majority of the initial followers were either close friends/relatives of the Prophet or people at the lowest rung of the society. These poor people couldn’t even read and hence were not in a position to be convinced by the Arabic and prose of the Quran.

The chieftains who were masters of poetry were not attracted by the Quran because it challenged their status and superiority in the society. The masters did not want to be on equal footing with their slaves and the sons did not want to be equal to the daughters. That is why the opposed this new religion that promoted equality.

The success and failure of any new religion was largely dependent on the social construct of the time. That is why almost every prophet/messenger appealed more to the poor and oppressed people of the time, because the religion is not only about the afterlife but it is also an opportunity for them to improve their status.

You believe the Quran is the word of God or you don’t. If you believe in the Quran, it is a matter of faith. You cannot prove or disprove it. It is something that you believe in. It is not verifiable.

Bit late to the party, but great post.

 

[sweep_shot]

Holy Quran has never been changed. Not a dot has been changed. Anyone who claims otherwise is a blind hater.

Islam is going nowhere (by the will of God). Haters can keep on hating.

 

[uberkoen]

Holy Quran has never been changed. Not a dot has been changed. Anyone who claims otherwise is a blind hater.

Islam is going nowhere (by the will of God). Haters can keep on hating.

What about the likes of Hazrat Aisha and various other companions of the prophet who have been quoted as saying that the Quran has changed in the books of Hadith?

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Tom Holland's works gives a compelling argument for why the later commentaries on the Qur'an were probably constructed in a manner to explain the more problematic , opaque verses of the Qur'an that were composed nearly a 100 years before the first commentary was written.

 

[IAJ]

What about the likes of Hazrat Aisha and various other companions of the prophet who have been quoted as saying that the Quran has changed in the books of Hadith?

You need to mention proper source of what you are saying so people can check the chain, authenticity, in what context it was said and so on. It’s not enough to just post random stuff and expect an answer.

 

[GoUgandaCranes]

You need to mention proper source of what you are saying so people can check the chain, authenticity, in what context it was said and so on. It’s not enough to just post random stuff and expect an answer.

Some of these folks find out something and then jump around in joy as if they have discovered candy for the first time. Not even knowing that if they just searched even a little bit on some popular search engine, they'd find the answer they are looking for.

Cuties

 

[uberkoen]

You need to mention proper source of what you are saying so people can check the chain, authenticity, in what context it was said and so on. It’s not enough to just post random stuff and expect an answer.

It has already been mentioned extensively in this thread earlier with sources and everything.

 

[ataullah]

Holy Quran has never been changed. Not a dot has been changed. Anyone who claims otherwise is a blind hater.

Islam is going nowhere (by the will of God). Haters can keep on hating.

Our beloved prophet Muhammad SAW's ways, sunnah is safeguarded and so is the book of Allah. May Allah guide to non believers. They will be in for a shock in the hereafter.

Everything has a purpose and the best of creation doesnt?

 

[sweep_shot]

Our beloved prophet Muhammad SAW's ways, sunnah is safeguarded and so is the book of Allah. May Allah guide to non believers. They will be in for a shock in the hereafter.

Everything has a purpose and the best of creation doesnt?

"Indeed, it is We who sent down the Qur'an and indeed, We will be its guardian." [Al-Quran - 15:9]

God mentioned of protecting Quran and it has been protected for the past 1400 years (and continues to be protected). Alhamdulillah.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

An educated religious man willfully chooses to ignore the false claims in their religious scriptures. It does not take a rocket scientist to know that.

Atheism is not a religion. We do not pray to any sky God. It is just the rejection of an all powerful, all knowing being due to lack of evidence.

My issue is with all religions. Not just Islam or Hinduism. If this was a Jewish board, I would be arguing against their faith too. This is a predominantly Muslim poster board. Topics are discussed on Islam.

True enough. But as the majority of poster here are Pakistani and Indian, then by the same token we need to discuss Islam and Hinduism respectively. If we had Arabs, Eskimoes or Japanese participating, then perhaps we could widen the discussion.

 

[ishtiaq_ctg]

Well Quran dosent have an alternate version & none was present ever, wasn't it? Even from a neutral POV, we have to give the benifit of doubt in the non-alteration of Quran as there has never been a complete compiled Alternate Quran.
Referring to the hadiths, yes there are hadiths present in both Shia & Sunni literature that seem to indicate that Quran has had some alteration. Like Ibn Mas'ud's(RA) hadith opinion that Suratul Falaq & Naas are not part of Quran, Aisha(RA)'s hadith of goat eating way the portion of Quran. I dont have much idea of shia hadiths but there were existing views among the minority of Shia scholars about the distortion of Quran. But I myself find the hadiths extremely problematic as they in many ways contradict the Quran & as a muslim i will never judge Quran by hadiths but do the opposite & judge hadiths by Quran.

 

[uberkoen]

Well Quran dosent have an alternate version & none was present ever, wasn't it? Even from a neutral POV, we have to give the benifit of doubt in the non-alteration of Quran as there has never been a complete compiled Alternate Quran.
Referring to the hadiths, yes there are hadiths present in both Shia & Sunni literature that seem to indicate that Quran has had some alteration. Like Ibn Mas'ud's(RA) hadith opinion that Suratul Falaq & Naas are not part of Quran, Aisha(RA)'s hadith of goat eating way the portion of Quran. I dont have much idea of shia hadiths but there were existing views among the minority of Shia scholars about the distortion of Quran. But I myself find the hadiths extremely problematic as they in many ways contradict the Quran & as a muslim i will never judge Quran by hadiths but do the opposite & judge hadiths by Quran.

Not true about the alternate version and this has already been addressed earlier in the thread with proper sources

 

[yasir]

Why do most atheist comes off of as rude?

If you do not believe in religion then why get in debate with someone who does and why do you need an urge to try to discredit one?

Promoting religion should be private matter then go on about on trying to prove it fake or discredit it.

Why we as a society try to discredit Dogma, racism and other prejudices??

Why feminist fight for equal rights??

Why there was a civil rights movement??

Atheism is about taking away special privileges of religion (in spreading ignorance by publicly funded tax payer money, free hand in legislation etc). How you get rid of dogma? by ridiculing it...Other examples are smoking, junk food. Drugs etc...

Atheists don’t want special privileges, but a fair chance in this fight. Religion is supported heavily by governments without been challenge, these special protections are the reason Muslim culture in general is so backward and science literacy is so low.

Remember:
Faith: Believe without evidence
Science: Believe with evidence.

These two ideas are completely opposite, fight is inevitable... this is current pressing ideological issue, that effects everything in society, not just some passing historical or sports stats discussion!!

 

[PakistanMeriJaan]

Tbf except Daily Mail and Malaysian papers there is no credibility yet, may be China wanted to do it but will now deny it..and drop the plan..

Of what relevance is Imran Khan to somebody asking if the Quran-e-Pak has been changed by man?

Oh right absolutely nothing.

 

[PakistanMeriJaan]

quran has not remained unchanged, it has been tampered with during times of umayad and abbaid empires and continued well after, of course muslims dont like accepting the truth when it goes against there confirmation bias, which is quite natural.

however this is what people need to realise, china is only the new wannabe super power on the block, romans, who still rule today have been doing this for over 1000 years.

Interesting to note you have a quote of the great Salahuddin the liberator of the holy land, yet you disagree with the word of Allah SWT that he will protect the Quran till the end of time. If you as a muslim believe it has been changed I feel sorry for you. The beauty of the hafiz of Quran, the protector of the Quran, has never and will never allow any change to Allah SWTs book.

 

[uberkoen]

Interesting to note you have a quote of the great Salahuddin the liberator of the holy land, yet you disagree with the word of Allah SWT that he will protect the Quran till the end of time. If you as a muslim believe it has been changed I feel sorry for you. The beauty of the hafiz of Quran, the protector of the Quran, has never and will never allow any change to Allah SWTs book.

But it has and there’s a lot of evidence showing that it has

 

[kk1992]

Why we as a society try to discredit Dogma, racism and other prejudices??

Why feminist fight for equal rights??

Why there was a civil rights movement??

Atheism is about taking away special privileges of religion (in spreading ignorance by publicly funded tax payer money, free hand in legislation etc). How you get rid of dogma? by ridiculing it...Other examples are smoking, junk food. Drugs etc...

Atheists don’t want special privileges, but a fair chance in this fight. Religion is supported heavily by governments without been challenge, these special protections are the reason Muslim culture in general is so backward and science literacy is so low.

Remember:
Faith: Believe without evidence
Science: Believe with evidence.

These two ideas are completely opposite, fight is inevitable... this is current pressing ideological issue, that effects everything in society, not just some passing historical or sports stats discussion!!

People of faith believe in science, too.

Rest is just semantic to describe and promote religion, Atheism.

 

[miandadrules]

People of faith believe in science, too.

Rest is just semantic to describe and promote religion, Atheism.

Please elaborate on people of faith believing in science. Just sounds like the many platitudes you’ve espoused without even having knowledge of the subject matter.

Hopefully, you’ll prove me wrong.

 

[kk1992]

Please elaborate on people of faith believing in science. Just sounds like the many platitudes you’ve espoused without even having knowledge of the subject matter.

Hopefully, you’ll prove me wrong.

Not in the business of proving anyone wrong, but it seem a acquired business of ex-muslim athiests, though, nothing wrong in it.

My comment is self explanatory, People of faith also believe in science.

Know plenty of people of faith doing great science.

 

[miandadrules]

Not in the business of proving anyone wrong, but it seem a acquired business of ex-muslim athiests, though, nothing wrong in it.

My comment is self explanatory, People of faith also believe in science.

Know plenty of people of faith doing great science.

Very conclusive answer.

Thank you. Allows the reader to really understand your views and how you’ve reached them.

I guess this is the same rationale that claims Jizya is just the same tax with a different name.

 

[kk1992]

Very conclusive answer.

Thank you. Allows the reader to really understand your views and how you’ve reached them.

I guess this is the same rationale that claims Jizya is just the same tax with a different name.

I guess you did not like the fact that many people who has "belief" also believe in science?

You are in the business of proving Islam fake but it is faith, belief, just like your believe that god does not exist.

Neither you nor I can prove either one of them, hence faith.

Jizya was a tax, your definition of tax in current time may be different, mechanism of collecting it may be different but never the less, it was tax.

 

[miandadrules]

I guess you did not like the fact that many people who has "belief" also believe in science?

You are in the business of proving Islam fake but it is faith, belief, just like your believe that god does not exist.

Neither you nor I can prove either one of them, hence faith.

Jizya was a tax, your definition of tax in current time may be different, mechanism of collecting it may be different but never the less, it was tax.

I can don’t need to prove my point of you, you do genius. I don’t need to prove a negative.

That’s basic science.

But your already knew that with your knowledge of science?

It’s the one making the claim that has to provide the proof.

I’d love for you to share the material you studied to reach these conclusions. Please share.

Good one about Jizya being just a different name.

 

[kk1992]

I can don’t need to prove my point of you, you do genius. I don’t need to prove a negative.

That’s basic science.

But your already knew that with your knowledge of science?

It’s the one making the claim that has to provide the proof.

I’d love for you to share the material you studied to reach these conclusions. Please share.

Good one about Jizya being just a different name.

I see you are getting upset for not believing in same doctrine as you but I also believe that you are entitled to believe whatever you wish to. So you have called me names, now when I replied to your name calling you will accuse me of ad hominem.

I am not making claim of anything, all I have said, I know plenty of people who has belief and believe in science? How difficult is that to understand.

Here is an issue with you, you want to prove me wrong about belief and faith, I do not need to prove you wrong because I believe everyone is entitled to believe whatever they wish to believe, your belief happened to be, Atheism.

I do not understand why do you have to become an online militant about promoting, supporting, and imposing your beliefs on other.

Almost similar to those who you accused of spreading their beliefs?

Again and for the 100th times, It is a faith and belief.

 

[kk1992]

Here is a definition of Jizya

Definition of jizya
: a capitation tax formerly levied on non-Muslims by an Islamic state

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/jizya

 

[miandadrules]

I see you are getting upset for not believing in same doctrine as you but I also believe that you are entitled to believe whatever you wish to. So you have called me names, now when I replied to your name calling you will accuse me of ad hominem.

I am not making claim of anything, all I have said, I know plenty of people who has belief and believe in science? How difficult is that to understand.

Here is an issue with you, you want to prove me wrong about belief and faith, I do not need to prove you wrong because I believe everyone is entitled to believe whatever they wish to believe, your belief happened to be, Atheism.

I do not understand why do you have to become an online militant about promoting, supporting, and imposing your beliefs on other.

Almost similar to those who you accused of spreading their beliefs?

Again and for the 100th times, It is a faith and belief.

First you claimed that I couldn’t prove my point. When pointed out that basic science means the one making the claim needs to provide evidence. The burden of proof is on you.

Can you grasp this concept?

Now you say you’re not making a claim. Make your mind up.

 

[miandadrules]

Here is a definition of Jizya

Definition of jizya
: a capitation tax formerly levied on non-Muslims by an Islamic state

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/jizya

Why the discrepancy between Muslim and non-Muslim?

Please give details of the break down percentage wise, as they should be equal?

 

[kk1992]

Why the discrepancy between Muslim and non-Muslim?

Please give details of the break down percentage wise, as they should be equal?

So from not being a tax to now provide break down? LOL

My initial argument was, it was a tax.

I think it is about time for you to stop digging that hole.

 

[Musakhel]

Why the discrepancy between Muslim and non-Muslim?

Please give details of the break down percentage wise, as they should be equal?

Because zakat and jizya are not the same.

Zakat is not just a tax it is an act of worship for us muslims, as told to us by Allah in the Quran.

Jizya is not a act of worship but a protection tax given by non muslims.

 

[miandadrules]

So from not being a tax to now provide break down? LOL

My initial argument was, it was a tax.

I think it is about time for you to stop digging that hole.

It’s a protection racket masquerading as a tax. That’s always been the point.

If you can provide a break down to prove that it was a fair and just taxation I’m more than happy to review it.

 

[miandadrules]

Because zakat and jizya are not the same.

Zakat is not just a tax it is an act of worship for us muslims, as told to us by Allah in the Quran.

Jizya is not a act of worship but a protection tax given by non muslims.

Breakdown please.

As well the manner it is collected.

You friend above seems to disagree with your definition.

 

[kk1992]

Because zakat and jizya are not the same.

Zakat is not just a tax it is an act of worship for us muslims, as told to us by Allah in the Quran.

Jizya is not a act of worship but a protection tax given by non muslims.

Goal is not to understand the difference, the goal is simple, to degrade and discredit Islam.

If as an atheist, your goal is to discredit and degrade other beliefs than i believe you have defeat the purpose of being atheist. lol

 

[kk1992]

Breakdown please.

As well the manner it is collected.

You friend above seems to disagree with your definition.

He is not my friend. I do not know him.

Here is another time.

Here is an official definition from a non-religious reputable website.

Definition of jizya
: a capitation tax formerly levied on non-Muslims by an Islamic state

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/jizya

 

[Musakhel]

Breakdown please.

As well the manner it is collected.

You friend above seems to disagree with your definition.

Zakat is collected usually by scholars or those given the task by the Caliph/ ruler, and they are also responsible for distributing it.

Jizya is collected by whoever's the ruler employs to collect it from whoever is eligible to pay the jizya as outlined in the fiqh of tax collection.

Zakat is 2.5% of your wealth as you probably already know.

Jizya there is no Fixed percentage it is left at the discretion of the ruler.

 

[yasir]

People of faith believe in science, too.

Rest is just semantic to describe and promote religion, Atheism.

This is Not true... For people of Faith, Faith(belief without evidence) is more important... Evidence or Science is secondary, not primary factor...

You don’t first understand and then belief. People are forced or doctrine into religion at 3/4/5 years age. We don’t do that for Science or Civic. It’s only in religion we force knowledge at such a young age and with lots of fear... because at mature age(adult), nobody will believe in dogma and superstition of religion. They have to be brain watched at really young. Religion dies off very quickly, if indoctrination of children is prohibited

 

[andy0204]

He is not my friend. I do not know him.

Here is another time.

Here is an official definition from a non-religious reputable website.

Definition of jizya
: a capitation tax formerly levied on non-Muslims by an Islamic state

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/jizya

Why you are wasting your energy?
If he wants to understand he will otherwise leave it.

 

[miandadrules]

Zakat is collected usually by scholars or those given the task by the Caliph/ ruler, and they are also responsible for distributing it.

Jizya is collected by whoever's the ruler employs to collect it from whoever is eligible to pay the jizya as outlined in the fiqh of tax collection.

Zakat is 2.5% of your wealth as you probably already know.

Jizya there is no Fixed percentage it is left at the discretion of the ruler.

Thank you.

 

[kk1992]

This is Not true... For people of Faith, Faith(belief without evidence) is more important... Evidence or Science is secondary, not primary factor...

You don’t first understand and then belief. People are forced or doctrine into religion at 3/4/5 years age. We don’t do that for Science or Civic. It’s only in religion we force knowledge at such a young age and with lots of fear... because at mature age(adult), nobody will believe in dogma and superstition of religion. They have to be brain watched at really young. Religion dies off very quickly, if indoctrination of children is prohibited ��

You are trying to discuss something else.

Do people of faith believe in science? Yes or No?

Again, it is a faith, and those who wants to hold on to it they can and those who don't, like yourself can't.

Those atheist who wants to convert to other belief can and have.

I replied to your comment, which was, people of faith believe in science as well.

You are using science as a tool to attempt to discredit faith. For the 1000th times, it is a faith.

Definition of faith : strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.

 

[miandadrules]

He is not my friend. I do not know him.

Here is another time.

Here is an official definition from a non-religious reputable website.

Definition of jizya
: a capitation tax formerly levied on non-Muslims by an Islamic state

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/jizya

No one is disputing that definition.

It is it’s very existence and practice which are discriminatory.

 

[kk1992]

No one is disputing that definition.

It is it’s very existence and practice which are discriminatory.

LOL, sure.

 

[miandadrules]

LOL, sure.

So, we’ve finally got to your grasp of the topic.

 

[kk1992]

So, we’ve finally got to your grasp of the topic.

I believe I have wasted enough time with you and your inability to comprehend elementary point is getting pathetic.

My initial comment in other thread (or maybe this one) was, it was a tax.

In this thread it was same. From post of mine, #285

Jizya was a tax, your definition of tax in current time may be different, mechanism of collecting it may be different but never the less, it was tax.

And the only reason you have to change your goalpost because I provided the definition from a reputable non-religious website.

Definition of jizya
: a capitation tax formerly levied on non-Muslims by an Islamic state

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/jizya

You, as an atheist, is here to discredit and degrade anyone who believe in faith. I am not, I respect your beliefs.

I do not see the difference between you and those who promote and shove down their beliefs on other and get upset when they do not agree with your personal beliefs.

 

[Musakhel]

I believe I have wasted enough time with you and your inability to comprehend elementary point is getting pathetic.

My initial comment in other thread (or maybe this one) was, it was a tax.

In this thread it was same. From post of mine, #285



And the only reason you have to change your goalpost because I provided the definition from a reputable non-religious website.



You, as an atheist, is here to discredit and degrade anyone who believe in faith. I am not, I respect your beliefs.

I do not see the difference between you and those who promote and shove down their beliefs on other and get upset when they do not agree with your personal beliefs.

His whole argument is that it is discriminatory to have zakat for muslims and jizya for Non muslims, however that is not the point they are not the same, zakat is an act of worship done by muslims and muslims only of course it is discriminatory because that Is how Allah has outlined it, how can you ask a non believer to give zakat which is an act of worship for Allah, when they do not believe In Allah in the first place.

 

[miandadrules]

I believe I have wasted enough time with you and your inability to comprehend elementary point is getting pathetic.

My initial comment in other thread (or maybe this one) was, it was a tax.

In this thread it was same. From post of mine, #285



And the only reason you have to change your goalpost because I provided the definition from a reputable non-religious website.



You, as an atheist, is here to discredit and degrade anyone who believe in faith. I am not, I respect your beliefs.

I do not see the difference between you and those who promote and shove down their beliefs on other and get upset when they do not agree with your personal beliefs.

My point from the start is that Jizya is a protection racket masquerading as a tax. Please show where I have deviated from this. You can simply do this by quoting the post.

And I challenge your assertion that it is merely a difference of semantic or of its collection method.

I hope that for the first time you will address these specific points rather than acting oblivious to them and regurgitating the same lines.

 

[cric_man]

My point from the start is that Jizya is a protection racket masquerading as a tax. Please show where I have deviated from this. You can simply do this by quoting the post.

And I challenge your assertion that it is merely a difference of semantic or of its collection method.

I hope that for the first time you will address these specific points rather than acting oblivious to them and regurgitating the same lines.

What is your concept of Tax?

 

[DeadBall]

What is your concept of Tax?

Something that is applied equally for everyone regardless or religion, race, creed etc for starters?

 

[Bewal Express]

My point from the start is that Jizya is a protection racket masquerading as a tax. Please show where I have deviated from this. You can simply do this by quoting the post.

And I challenge your assertion that it is merely a difference of semantic or of its collection method.

I hope that for the first time you will address these specific points rather than acting oblivious to them and regurgitating the same lines.

Was the requirement on non Muslims as the same as the Muslims? Did they have to pay Zakat? Did they have to serve in the army?

 

[miandadrules]

Was the requirement on non Muslims as the same as the Muslims? Did they have to pay Zakat? Did they have to serve in the army?

Please scroll through the thread.

This has been covered.

Are you also saying it is merely a matter of semantics and not a discriminatory policy?

 

[KingKhanWC]

Please scroll through the thread.

This has been covered.

Are you also saying it is merely a matter of semantics and not a discriminatory policy?

I wonder if you spent so much time and effort asking such questions at home?

Please add your experience to this...

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/showthread.php?292154-How-do-ex-Muslims-deal-with-family

 

[miandadrules]

I wonder if you spent so much time and effort asking such questions at home?

Please add your experience to this...

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/showthread.php?292154-How-do-ex-Muslims-deal-with-family

Oh now you want to engage.

I thought you didn’t wish to interact with me.

Let me guess what happened.

You stumbled across a thread which you couldn’t formulate a legible response and created a thread to attack the individuals instead.

How did I do?

 

[KingKhanWC]

Oh now you want to engage.

I thought you didn’t wish to interact with me.

Let me guess what happened.

You stumbled across a thread which you couldn’t formulate a legible response and created a thread to attack the individuals instead.

How did I do?

I was being sarcastic and making a point. Carry on with your great vision of liberating random people on the internet from the evils of Islam and don't worry about home.

 

[miandadrules]

I was being sarcastic and making a point. Carry on with your great vision of liberating random people on the internet from the evils of Islam and don't worry about home.

And what point is that?

Are you sure want to know how I engage?

 

[DeadBall]

Oh now you want to engage.

I thought you didn’t wish to interact with me.

Let me guess what happened.

You stumbled across a thread which you couldn’t formulate a legible response and created a thread to attack the individuals instead.

How did I do?

Good job, when he uses the emoji, it means that he's really irritated.

 

[miandadrules]

Good job, when he uses the emoji, it means that he's really irritated.

It’s rinse and repeat.

 

[kk1992]

Was the requirement on non Muslims as the same as the Muslims? Did they have to pay Zakat? Did they have to serve in the army?

Valid point that had been ignored or goalpost changed when explained.

 

[yasir]

You are trying to discuss something else.

Do people of faith believe in science? Yes or No?

Again, it is a faith, and those who wants to hold on to it they can and those who don't, like yourself can't.

Those atheist who wants to convert to other belief can and have.

I replied to your comment, which was, people of faith believe in science as well.

You are using science as a tool to attempt to discredit faith. For the 1000th times, it is a faith.

Definition of faith : strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.

Bingo!! One of the purpose of Science is to get rid of and discredit dogma, supernatural, superstition... Science has discredited all religions. We are not ashamed of that, but sell it as feature of Science not some Hidden political motive, it’s like blaming Feminist, that “you are trying to make men and women equal”, “discrediting religion is mission statement”

science gets rides of shaddy and pseudo religious logic, that’s the value of it. Muslim world scholar are scared of it for a reason... Ig will kill their business...Pakistan does not need more money spent on education, but freedom of speech, where free thinking Culture can thrive...

Side effect of that would be culture of Islam will be damaged...Like Age of Scientific enlightenment damaged Christian culture in significant way, that has allowed western society to progress and prosper far behind eastern civilization...
Money wise 400/500 years ago Mongal and Ottaman empires had lot more money and resources then westerns... What tilted the balance was Science took hold in major way, they led to enlightenment, exploration, industrial revolutions, separation of Church and state etc, these ideas transform their society and culture... Most Asian culture and specially Muslims are resisting it to date.

 

[kk1992]

Bingo!! One of the purpose of Science is to get rid of and discredit dogma, supernatural, superstition... Science has discredited all religions. We are not ashamed of that, but sell it as feature of Science not some Hidden political motive, it’s like blaming Feminist, that “you are trying to make men and women equal”, “discrediting religion is mission statement”

science gets rides of shaddy and pseudo religious logic, that’s the value of it. Muslim world scholar are scared of it for a reason... Ig will kill their business...Pakistan does not need more money spent on education, but freedom of speech, where free thinking Culture can thrive...

Side effect of that would be culture of Islam will be damaged...Like Age of Scientific enlightenment damaged Christian culture in significant way, that has allowed western society to progress and prosper far behind eastern civilization...
Money wise 400/500 years ago Mongal and Ottaman empires had lot more money and resources then westerns... What tilted the balance was Science took hold in major way, they led to enlightenment, exploration, industrial revolutions, separation of Church and state etc, these ideas transform their society and culture... Most Asian culture and specially Muslims are resisting it to date.

Islam and Qu’ran does not prevent anyone to excel in science.