Have a foreign minority dominated a civilization intellectually like Jews in Europe?

[enkidu_]

As we know, Germany was the leading scientific powerhouse in the world until WWII. But the main players were not all Germans, but in fact a Semitic group : the Jews.

We also all know how they dominated the cultural trends in all of Europe in the last century (read Yuri Slezkine's The Jewish Century), but I was under the impression that, unlike Poles, Austrians, Hungarians, ... in Germany, the natives were less overshadowed, considering their own human capital ; until I read this : until 1933, when Hitler was selected, 11 out of the 35 German Nobel prizes were Jews, that's slightly less than 1/3 of the total, or 33%... (source : Jews and Sciences in German Contexts, p. 23) it's especially impressive when you know how much Jews represented demographically

According to the census of June 16, 1933, the Jewish population of Germany, including the Saar region (which at that time was still under the administration of the League of Nations), was approximately 505,000 people out of a total population of 67 million, or somewhat less than 0.75 percent.

https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005276

There was never such a domination in any other civilization AFAIK. In India the Parsis were mainly good in business and they mixed with native Indians so much over the time (mainly Gujuratis) that they weren't racially aliens, in China don't know of any, in Russia you had many Tatars (of Mongol and Turkic genes) providing great men (Ivan the Terrible, Peter the Great, Mendeleev, Dostoyevsky, ...) but still ethnic Russians weren't that dwarfed.

 

[JaDed]

As we know, Germany was the leading scientific powerhouse in the world until WWII. But the main players were not all Germans, but in fact a Semitic group : the Jews.

We also all know how they dominated the cultural trends in all of Europe in the last century (read Yuri Slezkine's The Jewish Century), but I was under the impression that, unlike Poles, Austrians, Hungarians, ... in Germany, the natives were less overshadowed, considering their own human capital ; until I read this : until 1933, when Hitler was selected, 11 out of the 35 German Nobel prizes were Jews, that's slightly less than 1/3 of the total, or 33%... (source : Jews and Sciences in German Contexts, p. 23) it's especially impressive when you know how much Jews represented demographically



https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005276

There was never such a domination in any other civilization AFAIK. In India the Parsis were mainly good in business and they mixed with native Indians so much over the time (mainly Gujuratis) that they weren't racially aliens, in China don't know of any, in Russia you had many Tatars (of Mongol and Turkic genes) providing great men (Ivan the Terrible, Peter the Great, Mendeleev, Dostoyevsky, ...) but still ethnic Russians weren't that dwarfed.

Surprising didn't know the bold part,somehow assumed them to be Vikings/Nordic or something.

 

[Yossarian]

As we know, Germany was the leading scientific powerhouse in the world until WWII. But the main players were not all Germans, but in fact a Semitic group : the Jews.

We also all know how they dominated the cultural trends in all of Europe in the last century (read Yuri Slezkine's The Jewish Century), but I was under the impression that, unlike Poles, Austrians, Hungarians, ... in Germany, the natives were less overshadowed, considering their own human capital ; until I read this : until 1933, when Hitler was selected, 11 out of the 35 German Nobel prizes were Jews, that's slightly less than 1/3 of the total, or 33%... (source : Jews and Sciences in German Contexts, p. 23) it's especially impressive when you know how much Jews represented demographically



https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005276

There was never such a domination in any other civilization AFAIK. In India the Parsis were mainly good in business and they mixed with native Indians so much over the time (mainly Gujuratis) that they weren't racially aliens, in China don't know of any, in Russia you had many Tatars (of Mongol and Turkic genes) providing great men (Ivan the Terrible, Peter the Great, Mendeleev, Dostoyevsky, ...) but still ethnic Russians weren't that dwarfed.

Money, money, money. When you control the money, you not only control the government, but also all the institutions. (Google about the power of Jewish bankers in Europe in the 19th century).
When you control all that, your kids get the best education money can buy, get first access to the best opportunities available, get a legup whenever the need arises, and perhaps even be amongst the first in line when awards are handed out.

I'm betting that during the period in question, not many of the aforementioned Nobel prize winners came from the lower echelons of society, considering that wealth distribution during those time was in the form of a pyramid, the higher the level, the lower the numbers of families and the greater the amount of wealth on average each holds. ie the lower echelons of society formed the majority of the population, but the lowest levels of supposed 'achievement'.

Even today, compare the top 'intellectual' positions in science, industry, elite universities and the higher echelons of government and civil service, with private versus state education of those in these top positions.

As I said, money, money, money. Over many generations of course.

 

[Robert]

Whom are you talking about? The atom scientists were all Jewish IIRC. Then Freud.

 

[enkidu_]

Surprising didn't know the bold part,somehow assumed them to be Vikings/Nordic or something.

That's something you'll not hear "White Supremacists" say, but India is probably more "Indo European" (or so called "Aryan") than Russia, which has a lot of Tatar (Turkic)-Mongol blood. Even other Slavs like Poles and Ukrainains mock Russians for being "Mongol mutts", while ironically these two have roots from the Sarmatians, who are Iranic steppe warriors (the Sarmatians are a branch of the Parthians, who would give ethnicities like Pashtuns and Rajputs).

Russians had a lot of so called Viking blood (the Rurik dynasty and so on), but way more Tatar-Mongol : the latter remained there for centuries, but not only that, when they were defeated, they integrated the aristocracy by becoming military commanders, then they mixed with ethni Russians (+100 Russian noble families have Tatar names). There's a famous proverb : "scratch a Russian and you'll find a Tatar".

Money, money, money. When you control the money, you not only control the government, but also all the institutions. (Google about the power of Jewish bankers in Europe in the 19th century).
When you control all that, your kids get the best education money can buy, get first access to the best opportunities available, get a legup whenever the need arises, and perhaps even be amongst the first in line when awards are handed out.

I'm betting that during the period in question, not many of the aforementioned Nobel prize winners came from the lower echelons of society, considering that wealth distribution during those time was in the form of a pyramid, the higher the level, the lower the numbers of families and the greater the amount of wealth on average each holds. ie the lower echelons of society formed the majority of the population, but the lowest levels of supposed 'achievement'.

Even today, compare the top 'intellectual' positions in science, industry, elite universities and the higher echelons of government and civil service, with private versus state education of those in these top positions.

As I said, money, money, money. Over many generations of course.

You know, that's what I would have assumed, but that's untrue : the Jews were from what we'd call today the lower middle class, not the petite bourgeoisie, of which there were very very few, and even from them, not many Nobels.

In fact the book I quote studies all of this, and says that Jews were not "better off" than the rest, at all.

There's also a work by the late Amos Elon, "The Pity Of It All", where he shows how Jews of Germany were THE poorest community in all of Europe, but in less than 200 years rose in prominence in cultural matters - and few of them were bankers or stuff like that.

 

[James]

IMO the perceived intellectualism, ambition, studious nature and good standing of Jews was one of the main reasons for the Holocaust. A penniless painter on the backstreets of Vienna called Adolf clearly saw - and disliked very much - the consistent successes that they achieved and the spoils that they subsequently enjoyed. An adolescent's twisted murder fantasy come true, in the form of gas-stained and walled mass revenge.

 

[ShadabFakhar]

Qadianis in Pakistan. They might share racial traits with other Pakistanis but obviously a religious minority. Same could be said of the Muhajirs in Karachi.

Indians/Pakistanis in Uganda come to mind. Obviously no way their level of impact can be compared with the Jews of Europe but it was significant nonetheless.

 

[Black Zero]

We do not need complex explanation.

When these minorities are well integrated, then they flourish at higher rate.

 

[SandyB]

Money, money, money. When you control the money, you not only control the government, but also all the institutions. (Google about the power of Jewish bankers in Europe in the 19th century).
When you control all that, your kids get the best education money can buy, get first access to the best opportunities available, get a legup whenever the need arises, and perhaps even be amongst the first in line when awards are handed out.

I'm betting that during the period in question, not many of the aforementioned Nobel prize winners came from the lower echelons of society, considering that wealth distribution during those time was in the form of a pyramid, the higher the level, the lower the numbers of families and the greater the amount of wealth on average each holds. ie the lower echelons of society formed the majority of the population, but the lowest levels of supposed 'achievement'.

Even today, compare the top 'intellectual' positions in science, industry, elite universities and the higher echelons of government and civil service, with private versus state education of those in these top positions.

As I said, money, money, money. Over many generations of course.

Well you could make a similar argument for the Brahmins of the subcontinent. The controlled society, institutions, had the best access to education and academic/bureaucratic positions, and in every sense were the top placed in Subcontinental society which the Jews could never have in Europe, yet the Jew's achievement dwarfs the rest.

 

[Chrish]

Jews just don't dominate the billionaire list.. they have dominated Hollywood. Even more impressive is their domination of science (iirc 22% of Nobel prize winners are Jews despite making 0.2% of world population.)

Their achievement blows every other group out of the water

 

[Robert]

IMO the perceived intellectualism, ambition, studious nature and good standing of Jews was one of the main reasons for the Holocaust. A penniless painter on the backstreets of Vienna called Adolf clearly saw - and disliked very much - the consistent successes that they achieved and the spoils that they subsequently enjoyed. An adolescent's twisted murder fantasy come true, in the form of gas-stained and walled mass revenge.

Hitler's pathology is fascinating. I read somewhere that a Jewish doctor could not save his mother's life and he generalised this trauma into hatred of all Jewry.

Europe's intellectual loss was America's gain as Einstein, Bohr, Teller and Heisenberg all fled the Nazis courtesy of the Rockefellers.

 

[enkidu_]

Well you could make a similar argument for the Brahmins of the subcontinent. The controlled society, institutions, had the best access to education and academic/bureaucratic positions, and in every sense were the top placed in Subcontinental society which the Jews could never have in Europe, yet the Jew's achievement dwarfs the rest.

I also had Brahmins in mind, but I precised foreign ethnic group.

Jews in Europe were a bunch of Semites among an Indo European, different racial stock altogether.

Also keep in mind these Jews were not like ancient Brahmins : they weren't given the ask to study. Many of these Jews for centuries were like shudras, and only recently became vaishyas, if you want to talk in terms of varna categories. So it's quite impressive.

Jews just don't dominate the billionaire list.. they have dominated Hollywood. Even more impressive is their domination of science (iirc 22% of Nobel prize winners are Jews despite making 0.2% of world population.)

Their achievement blows every other group out of the water

Actually I've read that their Nobel prize shares goes to 25% if you restrict it to science (so without peace and literature.)

Keep in mind that many important Jewish scientists didn't get a Nobel prize either (Polish-Jew Casimir Funk who came up with the idea of "vitamin" or Polish-Jew Hilary Koprowski who came up with polio vaccine for instance.)

Hitler's pathology is fascinating. I read somewhere that a Jewish doctor could not save his mother's life and he generalised this trauma into hatred of all Jewry.

Europe's intellectual loss was America's gain as Einstein, Bohr, Teller and Heisenberg all fled the Nazis courtesy of the Rockefellers.

That's why the US became a superpower. Look at the number of Nobel Prizes they got before and after WWII (that goes from something than a dozen to +300 now.) They also shipped in many Nazi scientists from Germany, including Nazi leaders (see "Operation Paperclip".)

 

[Yossarian]

You know, that's what I would have assumed, but that's untrue : the Jews were from what we'd call today the lower middle class, not the petite bourgeoisie, of which there were very very few, and even from them, not many Nobels.

In fact the book I quote studies all of this, and says that Jews were not "better off" than the rest, at all.

There's also a work by the late Amos Elon, "The Pity Of It All", where he shows how Jews of Germany were THE poorest community in all of Europe, but in less than 200 years rose in prominence in cultural matters - and few of them were bankers or stuff like that.

But how many of these "Nobel Prize winners" came from the lower classes you mention? As opposed to generally wealthier backgrounds (with all that it implies as per my previous post)?

IMO the perceived intellectualism, ambition, studious nature and good standing of Jews was one of the main reasons for the Holocaust. A penniless painter on the backstreets of Vienna called Adolf clearly saw - and disliked very much - the consistent successes that they achieved and the spoils that they subsequently enjoyed. An adolescent's twisted murder fantasy come true, in the form of gas-stained and walled mass revenge.

It is precisely that point that reeks of double standards (not by you James, I must add)

On the one hand, going by the types of 'facts' outlined in the OP, the point that appears is being made is that Jews are a superior race because they are 'intellectually superior'. If true, then it automatically follows that they are different to everyone else. And yet, if someone states out loud that Jews are different to everyone else, then they are straight away labelled as being anti-Semitic, and lambasted as such.

So which is it? Are they a superior, hence 'different', race to everyone else, in which case you are being anti-Semitic for pointing out that they are different to everyone else, or should one be saying that they are no different to any other racial groups and thus not be accused of being anti-Semitic?

 

[enkidu_]

But how many of these "Nobel Prize winners" came from the lower classes you mention? As opposed to generally wealthier backgrounds (with all that it implies as per my previous post)?

I said from "lower middle class", not "poor" (their grandparents or great grandparents were poor). "Lower middle class" is like being the son of a merchant, shopkeeper, etc not necessarily bankers, engineers, doctors, etc

It is precisely that point that reeks of double standards (not by you James, I must add)

On the one hand, going by the types of 'facts' outlined in the OP, the point that appears is being made is that Jews are a superior race because they are 'intellectually superior'. If true, then it automatically follows that they are different to everyone else. And yet, if someone states out loud that Jews are different to everyone else, then they are straight away labelled as being anti-Semitic, and lambasted as such.

So which is it? Are they a superior, hence 'different', race to everyone else, in which case you are being anti-Semitic for pointing out that they are different to everyone else, or should one be saying that they are no different to any other racial groups and thus not be accused of being anti-Semitic?

No one talked of racial superiority. Jews in fact began to shine only in the late 19th century/early 20th century. If you read the main European intellectuals, from Voltaire who said "Jews are the only ancient group unable to have produced a civilization" to Bertrand Russel who said "Jews have played no intellectual role in the European Middle Ages", you'd know it's more complex than that.

If you were talking in the early 1900s, you could say a ton of ethnic groups were ahead (Chinese, Indians, Arabs, ...) ; but in the early 2000s there's no way you can escape from their dominance in science and arts (and, mind you, few peoples know it, but even sports : many of the early Hungarian Olympic gold medallists for instance were Jews.)

It's just an appreciation thread, nothing ideological.

Perhaps in a century Chinese and Indians will make a cultural comeback followed by their economic one currently and there'll be such threads about them, but as of now Jews are leading the dance for nearly a century now, with very few rivals.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

We do not need complex explanation.

When these minorities are well integrated, then they flourish at higher rate.

Jews are like Indians in that regard, they have generally been quite happy to put their Jewishness in the background, I'm not even sure a lot of them in the UK even think much about their Jewish identity. Most of them probably don't even bother about stuff like kosher meat.

 

[KingKhanWC]

[MENTION=137893]enkidu_[/MENTION] Is there a point to this thread or just for information purposes? The reason I say this is because Jews as people are close community and hard working who put a lot into the importance of study. But they are no more special than any other people.

Jews have been successful for hundreds of years in various fields but until the lat 1800's they were never so powerful. It was the Diamond industry esp De Beer which started their passage to money and power. Followed by the banking industry and media , they are rich and powerful.

The noble prize doesn't many much, Obama and Kissinger have this also. If a Jew needs a job other Jews will get him/her one.

I dont think Hitler hated them because he was jealous, he thought and many feel rightly they would cause global issues with their power. Most of these Jews in power today are Zionist Jews and have ruined the planet.

Their achievement may be huge but not a good thing for the world.

 

[Chrish]

[MENTION=137893]enkidu_[/MENTION] Is there a point to this thread or just for information purposes? The reason I say this is because Jews as people are close community and hard working who put a lot into the importance of study. But they are no more special than any other people.

Jews have been successful for hundreds of years in various fields but until the lat 1800's they were never so powerful. It was the Diamond industry esp De Beer which started their passage to money and power. Followed by the banking industry and media , they are rich and powerful.

The noble prize doesn't many much, Obama and Kissinger have this also. If a Jew needs a job other Jews will get him/her one.

I dont think Hitler hated them because he was jealous, he thought and many feel rightly they would cause global issues with their power. Most of these Jews in power today are Zionist Jews and have ruined the planet.

Their achievement may be huge but not a good thing for the world.

Does this post highlight the general sentiment people have on here about the group they dislike?

Needless to say it's way off the mark.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Does this post highlight the general sentiment people have on here about the group they dislike?

Needless to say it's way off the mark.

I dont agree with what Hitler did but was just pointing out his reasoning as ive read.

But please feel free to correct it. Just saying it's off the mark does no favours to anyone.

 

[Chrish]

I dont agree with what Hitler did but was just pointing out his reasoning as ive read.

But please feel free to correct it. Just saying it's off the mark does no favours to anyone.

No one stopped any other group from pursuing diamond industry, media or banking if being rich and powerful was that easy.

And LOL at Nobel prize being irrelevant. Do some research on Nobel laureates in science before spouting nonsense.

 

[Pakistanian]

The Aryans in India.

 

[Nostalgic]

Hitler's pathology is fascinating. I read somewhere that a Jewish doctor could not save his mother's life and he generalised this trauma into hatred of all Jewry.

Actually that doctor, Eduard Bloch, and Hitler's commanding officer in WWI, Hugo Gutmann, were perhaps the only two Jewish people he approved of.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eduard_Bloch

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_Gutmann

 

[KingKhanWC]

No one stopped any other group from pursuing diamond industry, media or banking if being rich and powerful was that easy.

And LOL at Nobel prize being irrelevant. Do some research on Nobel laureates in science before spouting nonsense.

I know . So ? It's how the power & money is used which is important.

its an award given by some to others . It has little relevance to what those with power have done . Jews like others have often been figures in society a long time before this award was conceived

 

[Leo23]

what does this have to do with the jewish religion? what are the aspects of their religion that has enabled them to excel in the fields of science?

why is this characterization as a religious group important instead of focusing on the individuals who excelled unless being jewish was the reason they excelled

 

[TM Riddle]

[MENTION=137893]enkidu_[/MENTION] Is there a point to this thread or just for information purposes? The reason I say this is because Jews as people are close community and hard working who put a lot into the importance of study. But they are no more special than any other people.

Jews have been successful for hundreds of years in various fields but until the lat 1800's they were never so powerful. It was the Diamond industry esp De Beer which started their passage to money and power. Followed by the banking industry and media , they are rich and powerful.

The noble prize doesn't many much, Obama and Kissinger have this also. If a Jew needs a job other Jews will get him/her one.

I dont think Hitler hated them because he was jealous, he thought and many feel rightly they would cause global issues with their power. Most of these Jews in power today are Zionist Jews and have ruined the planet.

Their achievement may be huge but not a good thing for the world.

Nobel prize in science doesn't mean much?
Now I've heard it all.

 

[santos11]

what does this have to do with the jewish religion? what are the aspects of their religion that has enabled them to excel in the fields of science?

why is this characterization as a religious group important instead of focusing on the individuals who excelled unless being jewish was the reason they excelled

And then how can Amir, Shadab , Sarfaraz and other winners of CT can be recognized as representatives of Pakistan ? How can personal achievements of a few individual Cricketers can be credited to an entire Nation of 180 million people ? Unless simply being born inside the borders of Pakistan has enabled them to excel in field of Cricket.

 

[Leo23]

And then how can Amir, Shadab , Sarfaraz and other winners of CT can be recognized as representatives of Pakistan ? How can personal achievements of a few individual Cricketers can be credited to an entire Nation of 180 million people ? Unless simply being born inside the borders of Pakistan has enabled them to excel in field of Cricket.

what is your point? please answer what qualities does the jewish religion possess that has enabled the jews to excel in fields of science and banking to name a few

 

[enkidu_]

what does this have to do with the jewish religion? what are the aspects of their religion that has enabled them to excel in the fields of science?

why is this characterization as a religious group important instead of focusing on the individuals who excelled unless being jewish was the reason they excelled

The Jewish religion definitely had its role. Jews are one of the rare groups who were highly literature from the Late Antiquity onwards, because their religion push for literacy in order to understand the Torah. The rabbi Abraham Heschel (better known for being the Jewish collaborator of Martin Luther King Jr.) wrote in some of his book how in the Middle Ages even illiterate Jews had a tradition of reading : in their houses they all kept books. They have that culture.

In Christianity too Protestantism was more favourable than Catholicism to literacy, and it was mainly due to the fact that with the advent of the printing press Protestant leaders used the opportunity to teach masses "the true Christian faith", considering the common man was shielded from reading the Bible by the Catholic Church.

With Jews you could add what anti Semitic sociologist Kevin B. MacDonald calls "a culture of critique" : not only because they were a minority, but because they were a persecuted minority, the Jews developed a psychology of "dominance" - every Jewish parent pushed his children to be the élite in order to influence the political power which oppressed them much, and bourgeois Europe, the one after the French Revolution which didn't believe in "birth rights" but "excellency of the individual through his work alone", gave that chance to Jews.

 

[CricketCartoons]

The mohajirs from Pakistan have also dominated bollywood, and parsees have dominated business. [MENTION=137142]JaDed[/MENTION]

 

[SandyB]

The mohajirs from Pakistan have also dominated bollywood, and parsees have dominated business. [MENTION=137142]JaDed[/MENTION]

Doesn't that have to do with the desi love for fair skinned tall handsome men, which the Mojahirs had in plenty ?

And regarding Parsees, both them and the Gujjus have a culture of being exceedingly good in Business. But I don't think it was related to religion.

You have the same situation in far south where the Moplah/Mappilah muslims who have build huge business empires in Kerala and the Middle east, which they attribute to their historical roots in arriving here as traders. Before the Moplahs, the Jews of south india dominated the trade in India's west coast, but their reluctance to intermarry among other South Indian's meant they got outnumbered by the Moplahs and Syrian Christians and lost their hegemony.

 

[Specialisttailender]

Jews are truly united and they help each other and push each other towards success.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Nobel prize in science doesn't mean much?
Now I've heard it all.

Its an award given to individuals by a commitee. My point was this doesn't do much for the bigger picture of why Jews are so powerful today, there are more important factors and even more importantly what they have done with this power and wealth.

 

[James]

what is your point? please answer what qualities does the jewish religion possess that has enabled the jews to excel in fields of science and banking to name a few

There is definitely a link between Judaism and literacy at the very least. Most religions are extremely easy to convert to, some would say a bit too easy. All you have to do is start attending services, dunk your head in some water, read out a short statement of faith, etc.

But Judaism is completely different. You have to touch base with a local synagogue and have an initial meeting with the Rabbi, then if you're serious about conversion you need to study Judaism for at least a year and commit to regular worship, whilst taking weekly night classes to learn everything there is to do about the religion, before you are even considered by a panel of independent Jewish judges as a potential convert, and if accepted you have to keep up the studying, reading and discussion throughout your life.

As a result of this, Jewish culture in general is highly intellectual and very much centred on personal growth, communal debate and the search for knowledge. This approach is why you get so many wise, creative and successful Jews.

 

[Yossarian]

There is definitely a link between Judaism and literacy at the very least. Most religions are extremely easy to convert to, some would say a bit too easy. All you have to do is start attending services, dunk your head in some water, read out a short statement of faith, etc.

But Judaism is completely different. You have to touch base with a local synagogue and have an initial meeting with the Rabbi, then if you're serious about conversion you need to study Judaism for at least a year and commit to regular worship, whilst taking weekly night classes to learn everything there is to do about the religion, before you are even considered by a panel of independent Jewish judges as a potential convert, and if accepted you have to keep up the studying, reading and discussion throughout your life.

As a result of this, Jewish culture in general is highly intellectual and very much centred on personal growth, communal debate and the search for knowledge. This approach is why you get so many wise, creative and successful Jews.

I was once told by a Jewish colleague that one cannot convert to Judaism. One has to be born a Jew, and only then if one's mother was a Jew.

Incidentally, the UK Race Relations Act classifies Jews (and Sikhs) as a race. So if one can convert and become a Jew via the method you've outlined, does that then mean they have undergone a miracle of nature and changed their race from non-Jew to Jew?

 

[James]

I was once told by a Jewish colleague that one cannot convert to Judaism. One has to be born a Jew, and only then if one's mother was a Jew.

Incidentally, the UK Race Relations Act classifies Jews (and Sikhs) as a race. So if one can convert and become a Jew via the method you've outlined, does that then mean they have undergone a miracle of nature and changed their race from non-Jew to Jew?

Your colleague was either misinformed, had a superiority complex, or was lying through prejudice. The Torah explicitly permits conversion, and therefore all major denominations of Judaism (Reform, Conservative, Orthodox - even the Ultras) will accept converts as Jews regardless of lineage.

The opinions of individual Jews are irrelevant to what the denominations have clarified. Being born to a Jewish mother is absolutely the golden ticket, however anyone can in theory become a Jew.

The UK Race Relations thing is ridiculous though I agree. Jews a race?? SIKHS a race??!!

 

[KingKhanWC]

Your colleague was either misinformed, had a superiority complex, or was lying through prejudice. The Torah explicitly permits conversion, and therefore all major denominations of Judaism (Reform, Conservative, Orthodox - even the Ultras) will accept converts as Jews regardless of lineage.

The opinions of individual Jews are irrelevant to what the denominations have clarified. Being born to a Jewish mother is absolutely the golden ticket, however anyone can in theory become a Jew.

The UK Race Relations thing is ridiculous though I agree. Jews a race?? SIKHS a race??!!

I would assume this was done to protect Jews against 'racism' and the Sikhs later who must have worked hard to gain the same recognition.

Of course they aren't a race, they are Jews because they believe in Judaism. As for conversion Ive been told until the commitee allows conversion nobody can become a Jew. Again this is ridicioulous, in Islam is someone believes he merely has to say the shahada with a witness. Even without the person once stating this will be a Muslim. I think Jews care more about not having people join so they can take advantage of being part of a community to help each other in almost all situations.

 

[Yossarian]

No one talked of racial superiority. Jews in fact began to shine only in the late 19th century/early 20th century. If you read the main European intellectuals, from Voltaire who said "Jews are the only ancient group unable to have produced a civilization" to Bertrand Russel who said "Jews have played no intellectual role in the European Middle Ages", you'd know it's more complex than that.

If you were talking in the early 1900s, you could say a ton of ethnic groups were ahead (Chinese, Indians, Arabs, ...) ; but in the early 2000s there's no way you can escape from their dominance in science and arts (and, mind you, few peoples know it, but even sports : many of the early Hungarian Olympic gold medallists for instance were Jews.)

It's just an appreciation thread, nothing ideological.

Perhaps in a century Chinese and Indians will make a cultural comeback followed by their economic one currently and there'll be such threads about them, but as of now Jews are leading the dance for nearly a century now, with very few rivals.

You've started a thread on Jewish intellectual domination, and quoted facts to support this viewpoint.
You've agreed that this is not due to some aspect of racial differences, ie racial superiority.
You've shot down my suggestion that this is the result of money, wealth and power, and all the benefits resulting from that.
With the above in mind, surely there is an onus on you to give us your theory as to the reasons for this intellectual domination that you claim exists?

 

[James]

I would assume this was done to protect Jews against 'racism' and the Sikhs later who must have worked hard to gain the same recognition.

Of course they aren't a race, they are Jews because they believe in Judaism. As for conversion Ive been told until the commitee allows conversion nobody can become a Jew. Again this is ridicioulous, in Islam is someone believes he merely has to say the shahada with a witness. Even without the person once stating this will be a Muslim. I think Jews care more about not having people join so they can take advantage of being part of a community to help each other in almost all situations.

Yes the Rabbi of a prospective Jew's synagogue has to arrange a 3-person committee who decide if the new recruit is to be made permanent or not. Apparently most students get accepted, but there have reportedly been occasions where an individual's 2 years of hard honest graft and obsessive reading goes to waste and they get turned away.

There is also a legend (strongly evidenced to be true) that in Orthodox circles you will be rejected on three separate occasions when initially asking your local Rabbi to support your conversion journey. If you are resilient / unhinged enough to go back a fourth time, they will then change their tune and take you in. There is a sequence in the movie Fight Club where the disaffected young men who want to join 'Project Mayhem' are repeatedly rejected on the doorstep until they are finally accepted due to persistence; this could be based on Judaism, either in tribute or satirically.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Yes the Rabbi of a prospective Jew's synagogue has to arrange a 3-person committee who decide if the new recruit is to be made permanent or not. Apparently most students get accepted, but there have reportedly been occasions where an individual's 2 years of hard honest graft and obsessive reading goes to waste and they get turned away.

There is also a legend (strongly evidenced to be true) that in Orthodox circles you will be rejected on three separate occasions when initially asking your local Rabbi to support your conversion journey. If you are resilient / unhinged enough to go back a fourth time, they will then change their tune and take you in. There is a sequence in the movie Fight Club where the disaffected young men who want to join 'Project Mayhem' are repeatedly rejected on the doorstep until they are finally accepted due to persistence; this could be based on Judaism, either in tribute or satirically.

Interesting thanks. I wonder if Jews can marry outside of their religion and if so do they have to convert in the same fashion?

 

[James]

Interesting thanks. I wonder if Jews can marry outside of their religion and if so do they have to convert in the same fashion?

Orthodox (fundamentalist) synagogues never allow interfaith marriage because they believe it leads to less fully Jewish couples having children. Some of the bigger fruitcakes in the Orthodox community go a step further and dub this practice a "Silent Holocaust", essentially the slow and nonviolent self-extermination of the Jewish people - completely insane stuff of course, and a disgraceful abuse of the H word.

Conservative (moderate) synagogues have less restrictions on interfaith marriage but still discourage it, and some Conservative Rabbis are still strongly against it.

Reform (liberal) synagogues are generally more than warm towards the idea of interfaith marriage, and same-sex marriage as well interestingly enough. Reform is the only denomination that seems to genuinely welcome everyone into the congregation.

Reform and particularly Conservative synagogues would still like it if the non-Jewish spouse of a Jew was on the journey towards conversion, but they can't make anyone do anything. Israel has even started accepting same-sex interfaith couples as citizens if one of the partners is a Jew.

Synagogues just want to create more Jewish babies!!

 

[KingKhanWC]

Orthodox (fundamentalist) synagogues never allow interfaith marriage because they believe it leads to less fully Jewish couples having children. Some of the bigger fruitcakes in the Orthodox community go a step further and dub this practice a "Silent Holocaust", essentially the slow and nonviolent self-extermination of the Jewish people - completely insane stuff of course, and a disgraceful abuse of the H word.

Conservative (moderate) synagogues have less restrictions on interfaith marriage but still discourage it, and some Conservative Rabbis are still strongly against it.

Reform (liberal) synagogues are generally more than warm towards the idea of interfaith marriage, and same-sex marriage as well interestingly enough. Reform is the only denomination that seems to genuinely welcome everyone into the congregation.

Reform and particularly Conservative synagogues would still like it if the non-Jewish spouse of a Jew was on the journey towards conversion, but they can't make anyone do anything. Israel has even started accepting same-sex interfaith couples as citizens if one of the partners is a Jew.

Synagogues just want to create more Jewish babies!!

Interseting mix of views in the community. Thanks James.

 

[Yossarian]

Your colleague was either misinformed, had a superiority complex, or was lying through prejudice. The Torah explicitly permits conversion, and therefore all major denominations of Judaism (Reform, Conservative, Orthodox - even the Ultras) will accept converts as Jews regardless of lineage.

The opinions of individual Jews are irrelevant to what the denominations have clarified. Being born to a Jewish mother is absolutely the golden ticket, however anyone can in theory become a Jew.

The UK Race Relations thing is ridiculous though I agree. Jews a race?? SIKHS a race??!!

If a person can convert to Judaism, then surely the notion that Jews somehow have a right over the lands that Israel claims, on the basis that their ancestors lived there thousands of years ago, is partly based upon a falsehood since down the centuries anyone who converted to Judaism would not have had any ancestral links to these lands, and neither would their descendants.

 

[James]

If a person can convert to Judaism, then surely the notion that Jews somehow have a right over the lands that Israel claims, on the basis that their ancestors lived there thousands of years ago, is partly based upon a falsehood since down the centuries anyone who converted to Judaism would not have had any ancestral links to these lands, and neither would their descendants.

Yes it's a load of nonsense essentially. Some of the most important people in Jewish history were converts. So, not a race of people - a religious community.

If a non-Israeli Jew wants to 'return to Israel' in the sense that they want to buy a house / flat in Tel Aviv for example, nothing wrong with that and good luck to them.

However it is the illegal settlements that devour Palestinian territory for which many Muslims (and Jews) eventually pay with their lives that are unacceptable and need to be stopped.

 

[KingKhanWC]

The concept of returning to the holy land hasn't even been fullfilled according to Jewish scripture. They are supposed to be in Exile under the Messiah returns and the temple is built. They are trying hard to build the temple though.

 

[enkidu_]

You've started a thread on Jewish intellectual domination, and quoted facts to support this viewpoint.
You've agreed that this is not due to some aspect of racial differences, ie racial superiority.
You've shot down my suggestion that this is the result of money, wealth and power, and all the benefits resulting from that.
With the above in mind, surely there is an onus on you to give us your theory as to the reasons for this intellectual domination that you claim exists?

"Race" or "wealth" are not the only parameters. Have you tried... "culture" ?

 

[Yossarian]

"Race" or "wealth" are not the only parameters. Have you tried... "culture" ?

Elaborate. You're saying that "culture" is what enabled all the Jews you mention in the OP receiving Nobel Prizes? Presumably you are implying that their ethos on education is the primary factor? Considering that you've sidestepped the question of how many of these exalted Nobel prize winners (both Jewish and non-Jews) were the beneficiaries of expensive private, as opposed to state, education, are you still saying that wealth is not a major component in the 'culture' of those in receipt of these Nobel prizes?

In fact what is the point you're trying to make vis-a-vis the thread and the OP? That the Jews are superior than the rest of us in some way or other? And/or their 'culture' makes them superior, meaning their 'culture' is superior to other cultures?

"There are lies, damned lies. and then there's statistics"

 

[enkidu_]

[MENTION=4930]Yossarian[/MENTION] it's all about culture, the proof being that Sephardim (Iberian and North African Jews) can be as successful, despite being in less affluent European countries and being a bit different "racially" from Ashkenazim.

Look at Italy for example. It has 20 Nobel Prizes ; of these, 13 are in science (=/= peace and literature) ; and of these, 4 are Jews. So Jews make 30% of Italian Nobel Prizes in science (basically nearly the same as pre-Hitlerian German Jewry did) while representing a population of something around 0.04% (25 000 out of a population of 60 millions.)

 

[Yossarian]

[MENTION=4930]Yossarian[/MENTION] it's all about culture, the proof being that Sephardim (Iberian and North African Jews) can be as successful, despite being in less affluent European countries and being a bit different "racially" from Ashkenazim.

Look at Italy for example. It has 20 Nobel Prizes ; of these, 13 are in science (=/= peace and literature) ; and of these, 4 are Jews. So Jews make 30% of Italian Nobel Prizes in science (basically nearly the same as pre-Hitlerian German Jewry did) while representing a population of something around 0.04% (25 000 out of a population of 60 millions.)

You keep quoting these 'facts'. But you still haven't explained what point you are trying to make!

As for this aspect of 'culture', are you saying that the Jewish 'culture' is somehow superior to all other cultures? And if so, in what way? And what aspect of this 'superior culture' lies behind these 'facts' you keep posting?

And you still have not answered the question I asked, ie Since you're claiming wealth is not a factor, how many of these Nobel Prize winners (both Jewish and non-Jews) were the beneficiaries of expensive private, as opposed to state, education?

"There are lies, damned lies. and then there's statistics"

 

[enkidu_]

You keep quoting these 'facts'. But you still haven't explained what point you are trying to make!

As for this aspect of 'culture', are you saying that the Jewish 'culture' is somehow superior to all other cultures? And if so, in what way? And what aspect of this 'superior culture' lies behind these 'facts' you keep posting?

And you still have not answered the question I asked, ie Since you're claiming wealth is not a factor, how many of these Nobel Prize winners (both Jewish and non-Jews) were the beneficiaries of expensive private, as opposed to state, education?

"There are lies, damned lies. and then there's statistics"

"Culture" is a complex organic whole which encompasses a lot of psychology and behaviour.

I'd say the place education takes in their culture is superior to anywhere else.

As I've stressed again and again the European Jews were not "better off". In Germany it was polarized (and keep in mind, as I have stated, that the "rich" Jews were the poorest Jews some 3-4 generations ago, so it's not as if money fell from heaven), but in Poland for instance certainly not.

In fact you could use such argument for the Anglo Irish, who were at the vanguard of Irish cultural production, in literature (Swift, Stoker, Wilde, Shaw, Yeats, Beckett, ...) or science (Boyle, Hamilton, ...), because they were the landed gentry/aristocracy, thus had the economic capital to transform it into an economic capital. [MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION] [MENTION=1842]James[/MENTION]

But if you look at Jewish men of science and arts they were from "lower middle class" backgrounds. For instance, the most famous of them, Einstein, I think his father was educated but worked as a salesman or something. He was no Rothschield I mean.

 

[Yossarian]

"Culture" is a complex organic whole which encompasses a lot of psychology and behaviour.

I'd say the place education takes in their culture is superior to anywhere else.

As I've stressed again and again the European Jews were not "better off". In Germany it was polarized (and keep in mind, as I have stated, that the "rich" Jews were the poorest Jews some 3-4 generations ago, so it's not as if money fell from heaven), but in Poland for instance certainly not.

In fact you could use such argument for the Anglo Irish, who were at the vanguard of Irish cultural production, in literature (Swift, Stoker, Wilde, Shaw, Yeats, Beckett, ...) or science (Boyle, Hamilton, ...), because they were the landed gentry/aristocracy, thus had the economic capital to transform it into an economic capital. [MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION] [MENTION=1842]James[/MENTION]

But if you look at Jewish men of science and arts they were from "lower middle class" backgrounds. For instance, the most famous of them, Einstein, I think his father was educated but worked as a salesman or something. He was no Rothschield I mean.

Try addressing directly the points I've listed. Especially the first one, ie What point are you trying to make with this thread and your 'facts'? That the Jews are superior to everyone else in some way or other? That their 'culture' is superior to others? That you've studied history and/or reads books on the topic?