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Have homogenized pitches around the world made India an unstoppable force in cricket?

SpiritOf1903

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Beyond a dank British morning, has the general lack of variety compared to even 20 years ago made India unstoppable?.

Australia have relatively dead pitches now, they have always been adept in home conditions though ironically faltered in England when the weather suited against a resurgent England.

Given they have the world's biggest production of World-class batsmanship, replicated by their women, India has the potential to be simply unrivalled.
 
Beyond a dank British morning, has the general lack of variety compared to even 20 years ago made India unstoppable?.

Australia have relatively dead pitches now, they have always been adept in home conditions though ironically faltered in England when the weather suited against a resurgent England.

Given they have the world's biggest production of World-class batsmanship, replicated by their women, India has the potential to be simply unrivalled.

India aren't even close to unstoppable.

But we are trying to punch to our weight. Having been underperforming team for most of history.
 
India aren't that good planning wise. Nowhere close to Aus/Eng/NZ in terms of efficiency in resources utilisation. They are just about PCB level with of course 5×more resources in terms of player pool and facilities.
 
India aren't that good planning wise. Nowhere close to Aus/Eng/NZ in terms of efficiency in resources utilisation. They are just about PCB level with of course 5×more resources in terms of player pool and facilities.

But it's precisely that.

It is too big considering population and breadth.

Which state could theoretically hold its own internationally?. I'm guessing Maharashtra followed by Gujrat
 
India can never be the Australia of the 90s and 2000s under ponting. Thats what they try to be, but they will never become so.
 
India could be better than Australia was potentially, but it does come with risks, people want to watch competition and if there is no competition then no one wants to watch.
 
India can never be the Australia of the 90s and 2000s under ponting. Thats what they try to be, but they will never become so.

And why is that ? We are pretty much unbeatable at home . We beat SL and Bangladesh in their home conditions . Too bad we dont get to come to Pakistan and thrash you guys 3-0 . We anyways leave that to lesser teams .
We have beaten Australia in Australia twice and drawn with England .
What makes you think we wont find a way to beat SA and NZ in the near future ?
 
And why is that ? We are pretty much unbeatable at home . We beat SL and Bangladesh in their home conditions . Too bad we dont get to come to Pakistan and thrash you guys 3-0 . We anyways leave that to lesser teams .
We have beaten Australia in Australia twice and drawn with England .
What makes you think we wont find a way to beat SA and NZ in the near future ?

home pitches.
where did Pakistan come into this?you cant make assumptions without first playing, so plz.

also first find a way to beat them than talk :) .
 
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home pitches.
where did Pakistan come into this?you cant make assumptions without first playing, so plz.

also first find a way to beat them than talk :) .

Jeez , we cant beat SA ? Everybody beats them these days . Its just a matter of time before we do .
So that leaves you with NZ . And even if we dont beat them , your great Aus Team of 90's also failed in India and called it the "final frontier" . They lost in 1996,1998 and 2001 before finally managing to beat us in 2004 .

So , we aren't as far away from them as you seem to think .
 
India can never be the Australia of the 90s and 2000s under ponting. Thats what they try to be, but they will never become so.

There has been no side equal to that Aussie side across formats. We have produced the best Asian side in Trst cricket though so that's something
 
Pakistan although a pretty average Test side have the ability to beat India in India or at least be very competitive.

Australia has a history of always struggling in India, even the superior 90s team under Mark Taylor was abysmal against a 90s Indian team which the average Indian public themselves claim lacked the killer instinct to win.

Now, besides Australia all the other SENA teams have always had a poor showing in India or in other words in the sub-continent. Pakistan and Sri Lanka are no more the formidable sides they used to be at home so Australia, England and to a lesser extent New Zealand have shown some improvements recently.

But because Pakistan are adapt at playing on slow, low bounce pitches we can definitely play much better cricket than Australia and England in India. Plus, India Pakistan cricket hype do charge up the Pakistani players.
 
Doesn't looks like this Australian team will win even a single Test in this series. It's 4-0 to India.

Beating an ordinary Pakistani team had given the Aussies a false hope that they were now ready to beat India as well.
 
India's real test will be post Ashwin/Jadeja combination. Last 10 years India has specatcularly dominaed at home because of these two individuals. It is not just bowling. But also batting. The cushion they gave at home with bat has been amazing.
 
Pakistan although a pretty average Test side have the ability to beat India in India or at least be very competitive.

Australia has a history of always struggling in India, even the superior 90s team under Mark Taylor was abysmal against a 90s Indian team which the average Indian public themselves claim lacked the killer instinct to win.

Now, besides Australia all the other SENA teams have always had a poor showing in India or in other words in the sub-continent. Pakistan and Sri Lanka are no more the formidable sides they used to be at home so Australia, England and to a lesser extent New Zealand have shown some improvements recently.

But because Pakistan are adapt at playing on slow, low bounce pitches we can definitely play much better cricket than Australia and England in India. Plus, India Pakistan cricket hype do charge up the Pakistani players.

I agree most of the points you made but I think gap between India and Pakistan in red ball cricket has widened. Mostly because Pakistani spin bowling has badly regressed in last 5 years in red ball cricket. It is not the 2004-06 era when Pakistan had a very good all round bowling attack.
 
And why is that ? We are pretty much unbeatable at home . We beat SL and Bangladesh in their home conditions . Too bad we dont get to come to Pakistan and thrash you guys 3-0 . We anyways leave that to lesser teams .
We have beaten Australia in Australia twice and drawn with England .
What makes you think we wont find a way to beat SA and NZ in the near future ?

Doctored pitches at home on usual dustbowls isn't something to be proud of. India outside India isn't much to talk about especially when we are talking about dominating decades. They can never be Australia of 90s or Wendies of 70s-80s. Pakistan could equally thrash India as their subcontinent records isn't bad (other than recent Pak run).
 
Doctored pitches at home on usual dustbowls isn't something to be proud of. India outside India isn't much to talk about especially when we are talking about dominating decades. They can never be Australia of 90s or Wendies of 70s-80s. Pakistan could equally thrash India as their subcontinent records isn't bad (other than recent Pak run).

Australia won just one series in India wben Sachin was missing 2 out of 4 tests. One test rain saved Australia. They still beat 2-1. India went there drew a test series. So they didn't exactly dominate India in their peak. In 2000s India won 7 Australia 7 includnig that Bucknor test. Rest ended up in draw. It is the hapless team that got canned. They are stil getting canned in Australia even after their prime.
 
There has been no side equal to that Aussie side across formats. We have produced the best Asian side in Trst cricket though so that's something

At home surely you have matched them, it’s routine a IND W at home. You’re also clever enough to prepare pitches differently for Tests and the IPL so the home advantage is never negated
 
Doctored pitches at home on usual dustbowls isn't something to be proud of. India outside India isn't much to talk about especially when we are talking about dominating decades. They can never be Australia of 90s or Wendies of 70s-80s. Pakistan could equally thrash India as their subcontinent records isn't bad (other than recent Pak run).

Doctored pitches ? I mean really ? Just because the pitches turn they are doctored ? By that logic green tops in NZ are also doctored . And English series should not be considered because all depends on who bats when there is cloud cover .

The pitch was the same for both India and Australia today . There was turn and bounce , but one side made better use .

India for sure have bottled up some away series recently which we should have won . But hey , we beat Aus in Aus twice , how many teams have managed that ?

And regarding Pak thrashing India , no comments
 
Doctored pitches ? I mean really ? Just because the pitches turn they are doctored ? By that logic green tops in NZ are also doctored . And English series should not be considered because all depends on who bats when there is cloud cover .

The pitch was the same for both India and Australia today . There was turn and bounce , but one side made better use .

India for sure have bottled up some away series recently which we should have won . But hey , we beat Aus in Aus twice , how many teams have managed that ?

And regarding Pak thrashing India , no comments

The pre-emptive whining of "doctored" pitch was just to dilute India's home wins.
 
Doctored pitches at home on usual dustbowls isn't something to be proud of. India outside India isn't much to talk about especially when we are talking about dominating decades. They can never be Australia of 90s or Wendies of 70s-80s. Pakistan could equally thrash India as their subcontinent records isn't bad (other than recent Pak run).

Pakistan's record in the subcontinent since 95 is pretty mediocre. They have lost plenty of series at home.
 
There has been no side equal to that Aussie side across formats. We have produced the best Asian side in Trst cricket though so that's something

That's not a high benchmark to be honest.
 
India doing well on any pitch in the world is more to do with the talents they have and not product of pitches.
 
Doctored pitches ? I mean really ? Just because the pitches turn they are doctored ? By that logic green tops in NZ are also doctored . And English series should not be considered because all depends on who bats when there is cloud cover .

The pitch was the same for both India and Australia today . There was turn and bounce , but one side made better use .

India for sure have bottled up some away series recently which we should have won . But hey , we beat Aus in Aus twice , how many teams have managed that ?

And regarding Pak thrashing India , no comments

Wickets in NZ have not been green for some time, due to climate change.

In England you get variations on slow seam, plus swing if there is warm moist air (not cloud). OT and Oval might turn a bit later on. Though tests don’t tend to go five days any more due to weak modern defensive batting techniques / mindset. India were quite capable of winning regardless of cloud cover, but they had stronger batsmen than they do now.

Last time England came to India, the first test was a flat wicket and England won. Then the next three were Bunsens on which even Root got 5-7. This was clear pitch-rigging. One could argue that England couldn’t bat on them due to bad modern defensive techniques, of course.
 
Wickets in NZ have not been green for some time, due to climate change.

In England you get variations on slow seam, plus swing if there is warm moist air (not cloud). OT and Oval might turn a bit later on. Though tests don’t tend to go five days any more due to weak modern defensive batting techniques / mindset. India were quite capable of winning regardless of cloud cover, but they had stronger batsmen than they do now.

Last time England came to India, the first test was a flat wicket and England won. Then the next three were Bunsens on which even Root got 5-7. This was clear pitch-rigging. One could argue that England couldn’t bat on them due to bad modern defensive techniques, of course.

England won 3 tosses and lost the series 1-3
 
Most of the star players play in IPL. Indian players know these players' strengths and weaknesses by playing alongside them and against them. I guess that helps a bit.
 
Under-19 performances of India somewhat reflect this.

2016 world cup venue Bangladesh India reached final
2018 world cup venue New zealand India won final
2020 world cup venue South Africa India reached final
2022 world cup venue West Indies India won final.

They have a good system in place. If anything India is underachieving due to age old senioity based selections, overstaying of super stars. Also India has the most wide range of pitches in the world.
 
These are the kind of pitches served to India when they visit England. So green that it’s difficult to find it. Lol. Stop crying.

Gavaskar, Vishwanath, Vengsarker, Azhar, Tendulkar etc. could score hundreds on such tracks n England.

Their modern successors don’t have the techniques.
 
Wickets in NZ have not been green for some time, due to climate change.

In England you get variations on slow seam, plus swing if there is warm moist air (not cloud). OT and Oval might turn a bit later on. Though tests don’t tend to go five days any more due to weak modern defensive batting techniques / mindset. India were quite capable of winning regardless of cloud cover, but they had stronger batsmen than they do now.

Last time England came to India, the first test was a flat wicket and England won. Then the next three were Bunsens on which even Root got 5-7. This was clear pitch-rigging. One could argue that England couldn’t bat on them due to bad modern defensive techniques, of course.

Either your definition of Bunsen is different, or you're probably lying.

India scored 337 and 192 on pitch which you're calling as flat.

India scored 329 and 286 in 2nd test with 2 centuries and you're calling those Bunsens because England couldn't score. 615 by a side is pretty much normal in test cricket.

4th test India scored 365 which again is normal score. Again England couldn't score.

3rd test was pink ball one where ball skidded more than it turned. Also India didn't have Nadeem later who was completely ineffective in first test.

Root's failure is not a bar to decide pitch. He isn't that good.

How do you make up such stuff.
 
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What of it, if the ball is turning square from 11 am on day one? And the matches are over in two days?

You're good at making up stories.

1st test went to day 5
2nd test went to day 4
4th test went to day 3

Only 1 match ended in 2 days.

You're simply putting blame of failure of mediocre 30 averaging batsmen on pitches.

1st was lucky break for England with Root's masterclass, but a line up dependent on 1 batsman is bound to fail regularly.
 
Gavaskar, Vishwanath, Vengsarker, Azhar, Tendulkar etc. could score hundreds on such tracks n England.

Their modern successors don’t have the techniques.

And Kev Pieterson, Alistair Cook, Jonathon Trott could score 100s on spinning tracks. The modern English batsmen bar Root don’t have the techniques.
 
And Kev Pieterson, Alistair Cook, Jonathon Trott could score 100s on spinning tracks. The modern English batsmen bar Root don’t have the techniques.

Those batsmen are as good as lower order batsmen.

Rory Burns 30
Sibley 29
Lawrence 28
Stokes 36 and he is glorified savior.
Pope 32
Foakes 33
Moeen 28
Crawley 28

And people think these batsmen couldn't survive because of pitch.
 
And Kev Pieterson, Alistair Cook, Jonathon Trott could score 100s on spinning tracks. The modern English batsmen bar Root don’t have the techniques.

I agree with this. Crawley was horrendously bad, didn't seem to know what an arm ball is. We'll see what Harry Brook is like in due course.

Basically batters' skill sets have reduced in many parts of the world. You almost never get a Bunsen in England any more so the batters don't learn.
 
India can never be the Australia of the 90s and 2000s under ponting. Thats what they try to be, but they will never become so.

We have already beaten Aus twice in a row in their own backyard which Ponting failed to do. India is not invincible but neither were the Aussies of 90s n 2000s. In fact potential wise Pakistan was the best team in the 90s. I still remmeber being in awe of Saeed Anwar's leg side flicks which used to sail into the stands.
 
WI peak side was most dominant side , they ran all sides through sides both home and away. Australian peak side looked even stronger on paper but they had issues against Indian side especially in India. One of the biggest reason was Indian batsman's ability to neutralize Warne.

The biggest reason behind Indian teams success from 1970 onwards on Indian pitches were match winning spinners, After the retirement to Spinner trio in late 70's. There was rotations of spinners who temporarily shine till Kumble arrived on scene in early 90's. This was major reason of Indian team's poor performance at home during 80's. After emergence of Harbhajan India became an even tougher side to beat at home. After Kumble's retirement and Harbhajan losing form in early 2010's. A gap appeared and Indian team got susceptible at home. However emergence of Ashwin made sure that this gap was much shorter. Jadeja later joined him to make India a very strong force at home. Another gap might appear after Ashwin-Jadeja if Kuldeep, Axar , Chahal didn't step up.
 
WI peak side was most dominant side , they ran all sides through sides both home and away. Australian peak side looked even stronger on paper but they had issues against Indian side especially in India. One of the biggest reason was Indian batsman's ability to neutralize Warne.

The biggest reason behind Indian teams success from 1970 onwards on Indian pitches were match winning spinners, After the retirement to Spinner trio in late 70's. There was rotations of spinners who temporarily shine till Kumble arrived on scene in early 90's. This was major reason of Indian team's poor performance at home during 80's. After emergence of Harbhajan India became an even tougher side to beat at home. After Kumble's retirement and Harbhajan losing form in early 2010's. A gap appeared and Indian team got susceptible at home. However emergence of Ashwin made sure that this gap was much shorter. Jadeja later joined him to make India a very strong force at home. Another gap might appear after Ashwin-Jadeja if Kuldeep, Axar , Chahal didn't step up.

You forgot the role of Indian Seamers on Indian Pitches in last decade or so! They are equally effective as spinners, they always come up with wickets! Even in the last match against Australia the seamers removed the openers cheaply on Day 1 and put them on the backfoot! They stamped the game lot earlier in India's favor! You should never ignore their role! They have played a huge role (along with Jadeja/Ashwin of course + their late order batting) in the absence of our "historical" strength (batting) which is not so good these days!

The effectiveness of Indian Seamers on Indian Pitches (and the way they outplay their opposition counterparts) should be the decisive evidence for India's success at home! If we highlight this parameter then everyone will shut their mouth (who talk about doctored pitches!) Even Anderson was successful when he applied himself on Indian pitches!

Even Javagal Srinath used to be brutal on Indian pitches in some matches (in 90s), so it is not only about spinners! If it all about spinners, then India can easily play 5 spinners and omit fast bowlers! (At times India have even played 3 seamers + 2 spinners when they felt pitches were flat - sometime between 2015 to 2020)

Someone can up with some stats to prove this theory!
 
You forgot the role of Indian Seamers on Indian Pitches in last decade or so! They are equally effective as spinners, they always come up with wickets! Even in the last match against Australia the seamers removed the openers cheaply on Day 1 and put them on the backfoot! They stamped the game lot earlier in India's favor! You should never ignore their role! They have played a huge role (along with Jadeja/Ashwin of course + their late order batting) in the absence of our "historical" strength (batting) which is not so good these days!

The effectiveness of Indian Seamers on Indian Pitches (and the way they outplay their opposition counterparts) should be the decisive evidence for India's success at home! If we highlight this parameter then everyone will shut their mouth (who talk about doctored pitches!) Even Anderson was successful when he applied himself on Indian pitches!

Even Javagal Srinath used to be brutal on Indian pitches in some matches (in 90s), so it is not only about spinners! If it all about spinners, then India can easily play 5 spinners and omit fast bowlers! (At times India have even played 3 seamers + 2 spinners when they felt pitches were flat - sometime between 2015 to 2020)

Someone can up with some stats to prove this theory!

Theory is correct one.

Since Jan 2016,

Bumrah - Avg 15
Kumar - Avg 20
Shami - Avg 21
Umesh - Avg 25
Sharma - Avg 26


Pace unit in India since 2016: 214 wickets at Avg 23
 
Theory is correct one.

Since Jan 2016,

Bumrah - Avg 15
Kumar - Avg 20
Shami - Avg 21
Umesh - Avg 25
Sharma - Avg 26


Indian pace unit in India since 2016: 214 wickets at Avg 23

Visiting teams pacers since 2016: 189 wickets at Avg 40
 
India simply had ATG bowling unit for all conditions in the last 7-8 years. Their batting was weak but bowling covered it for them. Bowling unit could do well in all conditions.


If their batting was good then Indian teams would have been one of the ATG sides. Batting is just too shaky for that. Also, this bowling unit may be done in 1-2 years. It's rare to have two spinners like Ashwin, Jadeja and gun pacers at same time.

People don't take notice due to hype of Indian batting, but bowling has bailed them out in the last 7-8 years.
 
Theory is correct one.

Since Jan 2016,

Bumrah - Avg 15
Kumar - Avg 20
Shami - Avg 21
Umesh - Avg 25
Sharma - Avg 26


Pace unit in India since 2016: 214 wickets at Avg 23


Visiting teams pacers since 2016: 189 wickets at Avg 40

Thank you very much! Now someone should send these stats onto the tables of some experts in Australia & England (ex-Cricketers, media, red-eyed fans, etc)
 
India simply had ATG bowling unit for all conditions in the last 7-8 years. Their batting was weak but bowling covered it for them. Bowling unit could do well in all conditions.


If their batting was good then Indian teams would have been one of the ATG sides. Batting is just too shaky for that. Also, this bowling unit may be done in 1-2 years. It's rare to have two spinners like Ashwin, Jadeja and gun pacers at same time.

People don't take notice due to hype of Indian batting, but bowling has bailed them out in the last 7-8 years.

Exactly! For India to match ATG WI & Aus Sides, then they have to form a hybrid team from 00's batting + 10's bowling (with Pant forming the bridge/icing on cake between them!)
 
Indians doing well has very little to do with Pitch. Indians have ATG bowling unit since 2016. Their batting is not great, but bowling has been right up there with the best in history.


Fans have witnessed something special when it comes to Indian bowling in the last 7-8 years. Indian pacers and spinners have out bowled visiting bowling units by a wide margin at home, but let's ignore at home.


At home, pitch and ball tempering accusation will come in all eras so let's focus on how they did when playing away.
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Away from home in 80s: Only one below 30 Avg - Great WI bowling unit
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Away from home in 90s: Only one below 30 Avg - Great SA bowling unit
View attachment 118691
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Away from home in 2010's: Only one below 30 Avg - Great Aus bowling unit
View attachment 118692
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Away from home since 2016: Only one below 30 Avg - Great Ind bowling unit
View attachment 118693
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Bowling sides who have been standout in their eras: WI side in 80s, SA side in 90s, Aus side in 00s, Now this India side

If their batting was stronger then would have been unbeatable , similar to WI and Aus side. They are not unbeatable because batting is not that great, but it takes nothing away from bowling. No need to rank them, but it should be obvious that we are witnessing something special. At home, Indian bowling record will be probably top 2-3 in history. Combine away with home, and it elevates them even more as ATG bowling side.

Simply said, if you don't realize what you are witnessing then you are missing the pig picture. This unit is going be done in few years, but we are witnessing ATG bowling unit in front of us. It's not the pitch, it's not the ball, it's not the conditions.... It's their great bowling unit. I have heard some older poster making non-sense comment like, batsmen now days are not good in so and so that's why Indian bowling unit has ATG record. That's ridiculous point, because if it's the case of batsmen being inept then what other bowling units are doing?

Bumrah joining Ahswin/Jadeja and at same time Sharma/Shami improving made them a really gun bowling unit. They have skills to do well in all surfaces. That's rare in history and reflected in record. Just enjoy it till they last.
 
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I have compared Indian Spinner vs Pacer record on Indian pitches 1970's onwards.

[table=class: grid, align: center]
[tr][td]Span [/td][td]Mat [/td][td]S.Overs [/td][td]S.Wkts [/td][td]S.Ave [/td][td]S.SR [/td][td]S.5W [/td][td]P.Mat [/td][td]P.Overs [/td][td]P.Wkts [/td][td]P.Ave [/td][td]P.SR [/td][td]P.5W [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]1972-1979 [/td][td]34 [/td][td]4340.1 [/td][td]359 [/td][td]27.62 [/td][td]72.5 [/td][td]15 [/td][td]34 [/td][td]1554.4 [/td][td]153 [/td][td]30.14 [/td][td]60.9 [/td][td]6 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]1980-1988 [/td][td]42 [/td][td]4466 [/td][td]318 [/td][td]33.14 [/td][td]84.2 [/td][td]15 [/td][td]42 [/td][td]2452.3 [/td][td]224 [/td][td]33.62 [/td][td]65.6 [/td][td]12 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]1990-1999 [/td][td]30 [/td][td]3591.4 [/td][td]328 [/td][td]25.45 [/td][td]65.7 [/td][td]17 [/td][td]30 [/td][td]1518.4 [/td][td]161 [/td][td]26.25 [/td][td]56.5 [/td][td]6 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]2000-2009 [/td][td]47 [/td][td]5689.1 [/td][td]508 [/td][td]30.77 [/td][td]67.1 [/td][td]33 [/td][td]47 [/td][td]3063.4 [/td][td]234 [/td][td]40.69 [/td][td]78.5 [/td][td]6 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]2010-2019 [/td][td]50 [/td][td]5769.5 [/td][td]598 [/td][td]25.4 [/td][td]57.8 [/td][td]37 [/td][td]50 [/td][td]2722.3 [/td][td]298 [/td][td]27.92 [/td][td]54.8 [/td][td]7 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]2021-2023 [/td][td]9 [/td][td]908.1 [/td][td]141 [/td][td]15.92 [/td][td]38.6 [/td][td]11 [/td][td]9 [/td][td]294.3 [/td][td]37 [/td][td]22.27 [/td][td]47.7 [/td][td]1 [/td][/tr]
[/table]

Win Loss Record
[table=class: grid, align: center]
[tr][td]Decade [/td][td]Teams [/td][td]Mat [/td][td]Won [/td][td]Lost [/td][td]Tied [/td][td]Draw [/td][td]W/L [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]1970s [/td][td]1 [/td][td]34 [/td][td]11 [/td][td]7 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]16 [/td][td]1.57 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]1980s [/td][td]1 [/td][td]42 [/td][td]8 [/td][td]9 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]24 [/td][td]0.89 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]1990s [/td][td]1 [/td][td]30 [/td][td]17 [/td][td]5 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]8 [/td][td]3.40 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]2000s [/td][td]1 [/td][td]47 [/td][td]21 [/td][td]8 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]18 [/td][td]2.63 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]2010s [/td][td]1 [/td][td]50 [/td][td]37 [/td][td]4 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]9 [/td][td]9.25 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]2020s [/td][td]1 [/td][td]9 [/td][td]7 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]7.00 [/td][/tr]
[/table]

Spinners vs Pacers Ratio by decades
[table=class: grid, align: center]
[tr][td]Span [/td][td]Mat [/td][td]R.Overs [/td][td]R.Wkts [/td][td]R.Ave [/td][td]R.SR [/td][td]R.5W [/td][td]W/L [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]1972-1979 [/td][td]34 [/td][td]2.79 [/td][td]2.35 [/td][td]0.92 [/td][td]1.19 [/td][td]2.50 [/td][td]1.57 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]1980-1988 [/td][td]42 [/td][td]1.82 [/td][td]1.42 [/td][td]0.99 [/td][td]1.28 [/td][td]1.25 [/td][td]0.89 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]1990-1999 [/td][td]30 [/td][td]2.37 [/td][td]2.04 [/td][td]0.97 [/td][td]1.16 [/td][td]2.83 [/td][td]3.40 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]2000-2009 [/td][td]47 [/td][td]1.86 [/td][td]2.17 [/td][td]0.76 [/td][td]0.85 [/td][td]5.50 [/td][td]2.63 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]2010-2019 [/td][td]50 [/td][td]2.12 [/td][td]2.01 [/td][td]0.91 [/td][td]1.05 [/td][td]5.29 [/td][td]9.25 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]2021-2023 [/td][td]9 [/td][td]3.09 [/td][td]3.81 [/td][td]0.71 [/td][td]0.81 [/td][td]11.00 [/td][td]7.00 [/td][/tr]
[/table]
 
Ever since India decided to play with 5 regular bowlers (which most other teams don't do), they have started seeing success. Ashwin/Jadeja have played a crucial role in bringing this composition first, because of their absolute alround ability (both in bowling & batting) at home. India felt that there is no need of 6th batsman in the side and they can do away with these 2 players & wicketkeeper! And since Pant arrived, it took to a all new level and they never thought of extra batsman even on tough pitches! Part of the reason for this is also due to absence of enough middle order batsmen in the country, so they felt these two could do better than even specialist batsmen! (Many times they are outscoring most of the top order batsmen!) This meant that we always had the luxury to pick extra spinner at home, and extra pacer away!

Probably this (average batting unit) is the reason why we lost many overseas matches (at home it is not such a factor). If we had strong batting unit, we could have won many matches . We could have won the last two series against South Africa (especially the 2018 one which was a mere batting shootout!) We could have also tried to win the 2018 England series (which we lost 4-1), we came so close in many matches! Again batting was the issue... We won the match when Pandya played an important role.

We have complaints about not having enough pace bowling alrounders (Pandya couldn't continue to succeed in tests) and Jadeja/Ashwin ineffective overseas! But the main problem is our batting! If our batting was strong, then even Jadeja/Ashwin would have been effective overseas! Our batsmen never took the game to 5th (and even 4th) day! 5th day pitch and scoreboard pressure could have brought Ashwin/Jadeja into equation, there were not many such instances. (This in the only way Spinners can succeed outside Asia! Including Shane Warne! Without a strong batting unit & pace bowling unit, Warne couldn't have achieved all that! In fact he failed in India which is so-called Spinner's Paradise simply because their batting used to fail in India so he couldn't penetrate much!)

Instead of attacking option (with attacking field) we always tried Ashwin/Jadeja to defend & give rest to pacers! And accused them expecting bigger things considering how good they are at home & failing to replicate that in overseas! We even lost that last test match against England (when Bazball attacked us) because of batting failure in 2nd innings, and trying to put responsibility on bowlers always (and accuse them for not defending on that day!) Probably another small reason for losing that match was over-aggression & over-confidence (Shastri/Kohli brought lots of aggression to our test team - they are instrumental of bring 5 pure bowlers in every format of game including tests, but sometimes rarely it can backfire also), that match we should have played safely, and "draw" should have been the first priority (because series victory was on the line!)

We lost even that WTC Finals against NZ not because of picking both Jadeja & Ashwin, it was again because of batting failures, we picked both Jadeja & Ashwin more because of their batting cushion than their bowling. 3 pacers were enough, all we needed were proper 6 batsmen (we should have played a 6th batman), if we were to combine with late 90s & early 00s team we would have played all those 6 batsmen in this match (Sehwag, Gambhir, Dravid, Sachin, Ganguly, Laxman + Pant + Ashwin/Jadeja + 3 pacers. We would have then dropped one of Ashwin/Jadeja.)

The problem with our current batting line up is except Rohit, nobody else is reliable. Rahul was slightly doing his job but even he is shaky now, Pujara fights it out at times, Iyer is showing some hope, and we should start grooming Gill and others. But as [MENTION=97523]Buffet[/MENTION] is guessing, we may start to find that strong batting unit back, but then we may lose this strong bowling by then! But we will hope to find both! (strong batting & strong bowling in future. Axar is looking to be a good deputy to Jadeja. Can Sundar become another Ashwin? Fingers crossed!)

I think we belong to the category of Strong South African team of 90s who was similar to us! (Not complete dominance, but threatening enough, doing very well even outside home, and also more than 4 bowlers in the team - alrounders like Ashwin/Jadeja/Axar/Thakur) South African team is never considered as strong as those past WI & Aus teams (which had pure & perfect Specialist Bowlers & Batsmen)
 
OP has a point. Australia, England, SA look for maximum revenue when India tours for tests. So the matches should last 5 days. That's why docile pitches are created. India is under no such compulsion.
That's why Mitchell Johnson was breathing fire on England in 2013 ashes but had non supporting pitches in subsequent India series.
 
OP has a point. Australia, England, SA look for maximum revenue when India tours for tests. So the matches should last 5 days. That's why docile pitches are created. India is under no such compulsion.
That's why Mitchell Johnson was breathing fire on England in 2013 ashes but had non supporting pitches in subsequent India series.

You seem to like fiction.
 
OP has a point. Australia, England, SA look for maximum revenue when India tours for tests. So the matches should last 5 days. That's why docile pitches are created. India is under no such compulsion.


That's why Mitchell Johnson was breathing fire on England in 2013 ashes but had non supporting pitches in subsequent India series.

So Indian bowlers are averaging 26 on docile away pitches? Yes, they are great bowling side, but not that great to average 26 on docile pitches when playing away.
 
OP has a point. Australia, England, SA look for maximum revenue when India tours for tests. So the matches should last 5 days. That's why docile pitches are created. India is under no such compulsion.
That's why Mitchell Johnson was breathing fire on England in 2013 ashes but had non supporting pitches in subsequent India series.

I don' think OP says that. Secondly this theory is absurd given that when you look at Australia's home average against different teams in the last 5 years
werwerwe.jpg
 
Once again an Indian Pacer picks 4 wickets on a doctored pitch!
 
Siraj was insanely good upfront. Too unlucky not to take 1 or 2 wickets.

Yes, its about time Siraj becomes lucky to pick up more wickets. He could be a massive upgrade to the likes of Shami, Yadav, Ishant & even Bumrah (at least in Tests). India should keep grooming substitutes for pacers from time to time (Pacers contribution to Indian test team - both home & away is an underestimated & unthought factor!)
 
The wicket nature of the 22-yard strip at the Holkar Stadium where deliveries started turning square from the word go has reignited the debate of the India dishing out under-prepared surfaces for the ongoing Border-Gavaskar Trophy games against Australia.The ICC match referee Chris Broad is almost certain to take cognisance of the diabolical nature of the track and it won't be surprising that after Nagpur and Delhi which were rated "average", the track for the ongoing Test match could well get a "Below Average" rating. India were all out for 109 in just over a session while Australia managed to crawl to 156 for 4 as 14 wickets fell by the end of the day's play.

All teams like to have conditions of their choice at home but what should be the extent of that home advantage? Another Test is set to be completed inside three days. Is that good for the game? And did the curators get enough time prepare the surface with announcement of the game being shifted from Dharamsala coming only two weeks ago? Could have the BCCI have managed the last minute change of venue better? These are some of the lingering questions that deserve an answer.

All the Test matches of the series so far have attracted healthy crowds but will the fans continue to flock the venues if the standard of pitches is not addressed? Matthew Kuhnemann had India skipper Rohit Sharma stumped in the sixth over of the game with the ball turning a proverbial mile.

The degree of turn was a massive 8.3. Nathan Lyon got one to dart back in from way outside the off stump and that too with ball keeping low. Ut left Cheteshwar Pujara surprised. That turned 6.8 degrees.

Both Rohit and Pujara could have used discretion with their shot selection but to have ball turning at right angles in the first hour left a lot to be desired. Should the ball have turned that much so early in the game? Former India captain Dilip Vengsarkar feels the trend of three-day finishes in India makes a mockery of Test cricket.

"The pitch makes all the difference if you want to watch good cricket. You must have wickets with even bounce so that both batters and bowlers get equal opportunity. If the ball turns from day one and first session itself and that too with uneven bounce, it makes a mockery of Test cricket,” Vengsarkar told PTI.

"It is important to get crowds back for Test cricket. You see that in England and Australia but unfortunately it is not happening in India. People will come back to Test cricket only if it is interesting. Nobody wants to see bowlers dominating the batters from first session itself,” added one of the finest batters of spin bowling India have produced.

Australian great Matthew Hayden was critical of the Indore pitch and felt sorry for the fans of Test cricket.

"No way spinners should come to bowl in the sixth over. This is the reason I don't like these kinds of surfaces. It shouldn't be keeping this low and turning so much on Day 1. It doesn't matter whether Australia wins this Test or India. These kinds of surfaces are not good for Test cricket," said Hayden on air.

The pitch behaved like it did may be because it was over-used and the curators did not get enough time to prepare as the announcement was made in the 11th hour after Himachal Pradesh CA failed to get its ground ready. The ground was hosting domestic cricket since September and only last month an ODI was played.

"That could be also the reason the bounce is uneven. They did not get much time to water and hold the wicket," opined Vengsarkar. A pitch expert who did not wish to be named said it takes at least a month to prepare a good wicket for a Test match. The square houses pitches both with red and black soil but the game is played on the latter.

It is believed that black soil helps in offering more turn and also retains moisture which helps in deviation in the air also.

"It takes at least month to prepare a Test wicket. Pitches too need rest. In this case, there was not even two weeks of time in between Ranji Trophy semi-final and this game. Before that there was an ODI played against New Zealand last month. That seems to have contributed to how the pitch is behaving," said an expert in know of things.

NDTV
 
Beyond a dank British morning, has the general lack of variety compared to even 20 years ago made India unstoppable?.

Australia have relatively dead pitches now, they have always been adept in home conditions though ironically faltered in England when the weather suited against a resurgent England.

Given they have the world's biggest production of World-class batsmanship, replicated by their women, India has the potential to be simply unrivalled.

I can’t think of a current world-class Indian batter now that Kohli is in a slump, though he is young enough to recover. Maybe he needs six months off. None of these guys would get into the Indian
side of a decade or so ago.

Conversely. India’s fast bowling is the best in its history and puts pressure on batting teams. It’s helped by the fact that most teams have weak test batting these days.

India’s spin attack is very effective at home but relatively poor travellers.
 
Jeez , we cant beat SA ? Everybody beats them these days . Its just a matter of time before we do .
So that leaves you with NZ . And even if we dont beat them , your great Aus Team of 90's also failed in India and called it the "final frontier" . They lost in 1996,1998 and 2001 before finally managing to beat us in 2004 .

So , we aren't as far away from them as you seem to think .

That's the problem when u say matter of time before we best SA. It's not about winning one out of 10 times and start calling yourself world beaters, Australia used to win 9 out of 10 times at their peak. India has toured eng/aus/sa/NZ multiple times in the last few years and baring defeating Australia they have done nothing significant to talk about. Winning one match here or there in SENA, even Lanka is able to do that without much noise.
 
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Pitches have become a subject of intense debate in the four-match series with former players criticising the rank turner at Holkar Stadium. However, Steve Smith is not perturbed by that and loves the challenge.

"All the wickets have spun, haven't they? We haven't got three days yet. That shows there has been spin from day one in all Tests. I prefer to play on these wickets than a genuine flat one that goes five days and... it can be boring in stages.”

"There's always something happening on these wickets. You got to really work hard for your runs but guys have shown they can do it. Usman in the first innings, Pujara, Rohit in Nagpur, Axar throughout, Handscomb... so guys can do it and you also need some luck.”

"With this one, yeah, whether it might have been a little bit too extreme potentially from the first ball, I'm not entirely sure but it was still an enjoyable Test," said Smith, referring to the Indore pitch.

‘Pakistan didn't really spin much’

Australia toured Pakistan for the first time in 24 years and ended up winning the three-Test series 1-0. The flat wickets came in for harsh criticism during the series last year. Smith said playing in India and Pakistan is a different ball game.

"The styles of play here and in Pakistan are very different. Pakistan didn't really spin much. You had to play the waiting game a lot in Pakistan. In India, you have to be ahead of the game, think on your feet and make changes constantly to try and make things happen."


"I spoke to the spinners on the morning of Day 1 that they have to take our egos out of play. For them, the pitch is spinning and they want to be bowling.”

"But we have got three of you. If I take you off, it doesn't mean you are bowling badly.”

"It's just that someone else may be able to do a better job at that point of time. When you have got three spinners, you have to work them that way and keep them as fresh as possible. I was pleased with the way I handled that," added Smith.

https://m.rediff.com/cricket/report...y-different-smith-australia-test/20230303.htm
 
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