Hindu/Christian/Atheist Challenge to Al-Isra Wal-Meraj

LordJames · Tuesday at 7:28 PM

Dear @The Bald Eagle & @Cricket Warrior

@Champ_Pal has stated that he is an Atheist and does not believe in "God or Creator". He has questioned the physical Journey of Prophet Muhammad ﷺ with his Physical body in 1 night.

Al-Isra: Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon Him) traveled from Madina (Saudi Arabia) to Jerusalem and then...
Miraj: Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon Him) traveled from Jerusalem to Heavens

All in a single night over 1400+ years ago.

Can you or any other Moderator commit to deleting any posts with EmoJi, Trolling, insult, disrespect and ban whoever (Me or Him) who doesn't engage Academically and runs away from the argument.

I will engage with @Champ_Pal until the issue is responded to and then as per the deal I will ask a question. I will go first and respond to all his objections, arguments and counter arguments.

I will be hitting the report button wherever I see unnecessary posts, Emoji, Sarcasm, Disrespect and I will be providing evidence and also challenging and asking for evidence.

Thanks and let me know if you can help with this and confirm before we begin.

Champ_Pal · Tuesday at 7:38 PM

No one gets banned as no one is insulting the holy figures of any religion.

Since you opened a new thread for the discussion, lets start here then.

Explain scientifically how Miraj was done. How can a Donkey fly and how can any human breathe in outer space. Show me the evidence and explain it scientifically.

LordJames · Tuesday at 7:42 PM

Champ_Pal said:
No one gets banned as no one is insulting the holy figures of any religion.

Since you opened a new thread for the discussion, lets start here then.

Explain scientifically how Miraj was done. How can a Donkey fly and how can any human breathe in outer space. Show me the evidence and explain it scientifically.

Let me wait for the commitment from Moderators.

No Trolling, No Emojis, no time wasting and a serious discussion
I will report everything which is irrelevant and trolling.

I am giving you my word and commitment that we will discuss this topic to the best of my ability. Extremely happy to engage with you in a serious and respectful manner.

Whoever starts trolling including me should be banned, simple commitment from me that I will not waste your time and stick to the topic.

Thanks

Champ_Pal · Tuesday at 7:45 PM

No one trolls or insults anyone including religious figures.

I am sure mods will agree to this.

Just give a scientific explanation for the Night journey. Go ahead.

Cricket Warrior · Tuesday at 7:45 PM

Again, please keep your discussion positive and avoid any trolling or making fun of any religion.

LordJames · Tuesday at 7:50 PM

Champ_Pal said:
No one trolls or insults anyone including religious figures.

I am sure mods will agree to this.

Just give a scientific explanation for the Night journey. Go ahead.

Thanks

Cricket Warrior said:
Again, please keep your discussion positive and avoid any trolling or making fun of any religion.

Appreciate it

بِسْمِ ٱللهِ ٱلرَّحْمَٰنِ ٱلرَّحِيْمِ

In the name of God, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful

Champ_Pal · Tuesday at 7:51 PM

LordJames said:
Thanks

Appreciate it

Now go ahead and give your scientific explanation.

LordJames · Tuesday at 7:59 PM

Champ_Pal said:
Now go ahead and give your scientific explanation.

Dear Brother @Champ_Pal

I know that you keep mentioning the "donkey" and "space" but...

We’ll go through this topic step by step, in full detail. If there’s any Arabic, English term, or technical idea you don’t understand, ask until it’s clear.

We won’t move forward until each stage is agreed or refuted (destroyed) by you.

My job is to provide scientific evidence.
Your job is to destroy the scientific evidence and provide counter scientific evidence.

Let me prepare my Stage 1 discussion.

Thanks

Champ_Pal · Tuesday at 8:02 PM

Bhaijaan, go ahead. Please explain scientifically.

LordJames · Tuesday at 8:33 PM

Champ_Pal said:
Bhaijaan, go ahead. Please explain scientifically.

Beginning:

Characters & Setting: Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and his wife Aisha (may God be pleased with her) in a bedroom in Madinah (Saudi Arabia)

Two Journeys:

From Madinah (Saudi Arabia) to Jerusalem (about 1150 km).
From Jerusalem to beyond the 7 heavens (distance unknown).

Timing: This all happened during the night, but almost no time seemed to pass. His wife did not notice, and there were no witnesses.

Explanation Given: Scientifically, the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) entered another time dimension where time flowed differently and this is Speculative Physics. . His wife stayed in normal time, unaware of the journey, while he had a completely different experience.

To make you understand it simply, I have provided an example with @KingKhanWC. However not only there is time dimension but also Time Dilation.

Claim: This shows the journey is scientifically possible.

Request: Please without trolling agree or refute this from science before we move on to details like distance and mode of travel. We will not move forward until agree or refute me thus far using science.

Remember: We have not even begun to talk about the whole issue yet, just beginning.

Once Again: We will continue the discussion and get to your "Donkey" and "Space Suit" etc.

Ask? If you do not understand, ask questions

Champ_Pal · Tuesday at 10:12 PM

Not trolling. So no harm done from my side.

Let me dissect the argument.

You said "Scientifically, the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) entered another time dimension where time flowed differently and this is Speculative Physics. . His wife stayed in normal time, unaware of the journey, while he had a completely different experience."
If you are a person on Earth and you travel at the speed of light to outer space for a few hours and come back, your time may have passed only a few hours. But the time on Earth would have passed thousands of years if not millions.

So your time dilation argument does not work. Prophet PBUH did a night journey and came back with in a few hours(I guess). If you are using time dilation argument, then the time on earth should have at least passed several days if not years. But it did not. The time on Earth still remained the same. Which means it was not really a physical journey at least per science.

Also, he was not with his wife at that time. Read below. He was with Umm Hani as per below. Read the underlined part in red. He was also in Mecca not Medina.

"
Having gone through so much grief and suffering, the Prophet Muhammad (saw) was given a truly beautiful and comforting gift. He was transported not only to the Sacred Sanctuary and through the skies, but ultimately into the Divine Presence, the source of all comfort and hope. One of the most important lessons of Al-Isra’ wal-Mi’raj, therefore, is that ‘with every hardship [there will be] ease’ (The Noble Qur’an, 94: 5).

Al-Isra’: From the Ka’bah to Al-Aqsa

When the Prophet (saw) was sleeping in the house of Umm Hani (ra) in Makkah he said, ‘the roof of my house was opened and the Angel Jibril [as] descended’ (Bukhari). Scholars reconciling between various narrations, say the Prophet (saw) was then taken to the Hijr, the semi-circular wall of the Ka‘bah, where the Prophet (saw) said that Jibril (as), ‘opened my chest, and washed it with Zamzam water. Then he brought a golden tray full of wisdom and faith, and having poured its contents into my chest, he closed it’. [Bukhari]

The Prophet (saw) continued, ‘I was then brought a white beast which is called al-Buraq [from the Arabic word barq, meaning lightning], bigger than a donkey and smaller than a mule. Its stride was as long as the eye could reach’. [Muslim]

It is narrated by Anas (ra) that Buraq was, ‘saddled and reined, but he shied from him (saw). So Jibril [as] said to him, “Is it from Muhammad [saw] that you do this? For nobody has ridden you who is more honourable to Allah than him!” He said, “Then he started sweating profusely”’. [Tirmidhi]
"

Al-Isra' wal-Mi'raj: The Story of the Miraculous Night Journey

Al-Isra’ wal-Mi’raj (the Night Journey & Ascension) is a miracle second only to the revelation of the Qur’an. Learn more here.

muslimhands.org.uk

PS - I think @LordJames, you have got so many things wrong in this whole Al Isra Wal Miraj incident.

May be I did not read your post correctly. Explain what I said.

LordJames · Tuesday at 10:24 PM

Champ_Pal said:
Not trolling. So no harm done from my side.

Let me dissect the argument.

You said "Scientifically, the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) entered another time dimension where time flowed differently and this is Speculative Physics. . His wife stayed in normal time, unaware of the journey, while he had a completely different experience."
If you are a person on Earth and you travel at the speed of light to outer space for a few hours and come back, your time may have passed only a few hours. But the time on Earth would have passed thousands of years if not millions.

So your time dilation argument does not work. Prophet PBUH did a night journey and came back with in a few hours(I guess). If you are using time dilation argument, then the time on earth should have at least passed several days if not years. But it did not. The time on Earth still remained the same. Which means it was not really a physical journey at least per science.

Also, he was not with his wife at that time. Read below. He was with Umm Hani as per below. Read the underlined part in red. He was also in Mecca not Medina.

"
Having gone through so much grief and suffering, the Prophet Muhammad (saw) was given a truly beautiful and comforting gift. He was transported not only to the Sacred Sanctuary and through the skies, but ultimately into the Divine Presence, the source of all comfort and hope. One of the most important lessons of Al-Isra’ wal-Mi’raj, therefore, is that ‘with every hardship [there will be] ease’ (The Noble Qur’an, 94: 5).

Al-Isra’: From the Ka’bah to Al-Aqsa

When the Prophet (saw) was sleeping in the house of Umm Hani (ra) in Makkah he said, ‘the roof of my house was opened and the Angel Jibril [as] descended’ (Bukhari). Scholars reconciling between various narrations, say the Prophet (saw) was then taken to the Hijr, the semi-circular wall of the Ka‘bah, where the Prophet (saw) said that Jibril (as), ‘opened my chest, and washed it with Zamzam water. Then he brought a golden tray full of wisdom and faith, and having poured its contents into my chest, he closed it’. [Bukhari]

The Prophet (saw) continued, ‘I was then brought a white beast which is called al-Buraq [from the Arabic word barq, meaning lightning], bigger than a donkey and smaller than a mule. Its stride was as long as the eye could reach’. [Muslim]

It is narrated by Anas (ra) that Buraq was, ‘saddled and reined, but he shied from him (saw). So Jibril [as] said to him, “Is it from Muhammad [saw] that you do this? For nobody has ridden you who is more honourable to Allah than him!” He said, “Then he started sweating profusely”’. [Tirmidhi]
"

Al-Isra' wal-Mi'raj: The Story of the Miraculous Night Journey

Al-Isra’ wal-Mi’raj (the Night Journey & Ascension) is a miracle second only to the revelation of the Qur’an. Learn more here.

muslimhands.org.uk

PS - I think @LordJames, you have got so many things wrong in this whole Al Isra Wal Miraj incident.

May be I did not read your post correctly. Explain what I said.

Dear @Champ_Pal

Where did I say that he came back within a few hours???

I have not mentioned Journey, Buraq or anything at all, haven't started yet. That is coming later, please stick to this stage of the discussion. The highlighted part in RED is irrelevant to the discussion. He (Peace be upon Him) could be at his house or any other house and it does not matter.

There are two people in the incident. Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon Him) and his Aisha (May God be Pleased with her)
Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon Him) experiences (journey, travel etc) while the wife does not.

This is possible because he entered another time dimension where time flowed differently and this is Speculative Physics.

Please refute the argument using Physics.
Please explain why it is impossible using Physics.

Lastly, you are arguing about the length of Time Dilation but not the concept while I am discussing the "possibility".

Thanks

Champ_Pal · Tuesday at 10:34 PM

LordJames said:
Dear @Champ_Pal

Where did I say that he came back within a few hours???

The entire incident was when he was sleeping at Umm Hani's house. It happened in Mecca and not Medina. So the entire incident happened in a span of few hours.

LordJames said:
I have not mentioned Journey, Buraq or anything at all, haven't started yet. That is coming later, please stick to this stage of the discussion. The highlighted part in RED is irrelevant to the discussion. He (Peace be upon Him) could be at his house or any other house and it does not matter.

There are two people in the incident. Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon Him) and his Aisha (May God be Pleased with her)

Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon Him) experiences (journey, travel etc) while the wife does not.

This is possible because he entered another time dimension where time flowed differently and this is Speculative Physics.

Please refute the argument using Physics.

Please explain why it is impossible using Physics.

Lastly, you are arguing about the length of Time Dilation but not the concept while I am discussing the "possibility".

Thanks

You presented a dubious argument with no basis in physics and got rightfully called out. What do you mean another time dimension? He went on Buraq to heavens and came back the same night. He spoke to Allah SWT and other Prophets too during his journey.

What you presented is not scientific. Just some mumbo jumbo and you want me to refute you with Physics? Come on dude!!

I already mentioned to you how time dilation happens. Nothing like what you have presented. You are saying speculative physics and another dimension. What in the world are you talking now???

Do you at least agree that it happened in Mecca and not Medina and Prophet PBUH was at Umm Hani's house and not with Aisha ra?

LordJames · Tuesday at 10:42 PM

Champ_Pal said:
The entire incident was when he was sleeping at Umm Hani's house. It happened in Mecca and not Medina. So the entire incident happened in a span of few hours.

Dear @Champ_Pal

Two Journeys:

From Madinah (Saudi Arabia) to Jerusalem (about 1150 km).
From Jerusalem to beyond the 7 heavens (distance unknown).

Lets say that it happened in "Makkah" then the points become this:

From Makkah (Saudi Arabia) to Jerusalem (about 1460 km).
From Jerusalem to beyond the 7 heavens (distance unknown).

Please explain to me how the "source" makes a difference". Explain your point of view as to what happens if it is at a different location (400 KM away)?

Champ_Pal said:
He went on Buraq to heavens and came back the same night. He spoke to Allah SWT and other Prophets too during his journey.

I have not even got to Buraq yet!

Do you understand this 1 line?

Champ_Pal said:
Do you at least agree that it happened in Mecca and not Medina and Prophet PBUH was at Umm Hani's house and not with Aisha ra?

What is your claim that he was not with Aisha (May God be Pleased with her))? I am not talking about house of

Champ_Pal said:
What you presented is not scientific. Just some mumbo jumbo and you want me to refute you with Physics? Come on dude!!

I already mentioned to you how time dilation happens. Nothing like what you have presented. You are saying speculative physics and another dimension. What in the world are you talking now???

Do you at least agree that it happened in Mecca and not Medina and Prophet PBUH was at Umm Hani's house and not with Aisha ra?

There are two people in the incident. Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon Him) and his Aisha (May God be Pleased with her)
Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon Him) experiences (journey, travel etc) while the wife does not.

This is possible because he entered another time dimension where time flowed differently and this is Speculative Physics.

Please refute the argument using Physics.
Please explain why it is impossible using Physics.

Please explain what is mambo-jumbo and why is it wrong?

Thanks

Champ_Pal said:
I already mentioned to you how time dilation happens. Nothing like what you have presented. You are saying speculative physics and another dimension. What in the world are you talking now???

If you don't know it, how do you know its mambo-jumbo?

LordJames · Tuesday at 10:45 PM

@Champ_Pal

Do you understand when provided an example with @KingKhanWC.?

Yes/No?

Thanks

LordJames · Tuesday at 10:56 PM

LordJames said:
Beginning:

Characters & Setting: Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and his wife Aisha (may God be pleased with her) in a bedroom in Madinah (Saudi Arabia)

Two Journeys:

From Madinah (Saudi Arabia) to Jerusalem (about 1150 km).

From Jerusalem to beyond the 7 heavens (distance unknown).

Timing: This all happened during the night, but almost no time seemed to pass. His wife did not notice, and there were no witnesses.

Explanation Given: Scientifically, the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) entered another time dimension where time flowed differently and this is Speculative Physics. . His wife stayed in normal time, unaware of the journey, while he had a completely different experience.

To make you understand it simply, I have provided an example with @KingKhanWC. However not only there is time dimension but also Time Dilation.

Claim: This shows the journey is scientifically possible.

Request: Please without trolling agree or refute this from science before we move on to details like distance and mode of travel. We will not move forward until agree or refute me thus far using science.

Remember: We have not even begun to talk about the whole issue yet, just beginning.

Once Again: We will continue the discussion and get to your "Donkey" and "Space Suit" etc.

Ask? If you do not understand, ask questions

My Mistake & Apology

From Madinah (Saudi Arabia) to Jerusalem (about 1150 km).
From Jerusalem to beyond the 7 heavens (distance unknown).

@Champ_Pal has correctly pointed out my mistake and it should be this:

From Makkah (Saudi Arabia) to Jerusalem (about 1460 km).
From Jerusalem to beyond the 7 heavens (distance unknown).

It is a historical error on my part but makes no difference to the argument but is it my mistake and my error.

Thanks.

Champ_Pal · Tuesday at 11:08 PM

You are giving me some vague another dimension argument and calling it speculative physics and asking me to prove it using physics?

I don’t even know where to start.

If another dimension and speculative physics is applied to your argument, Hindus can apply the same to Hanuman’s leap to the outer space. But it got mocked by your brethren in the other thread.

The debate was on whether you can prove Miraj using science. If another dimension logic is used, we can apply it to authenticate every miracle and superhuman feats in Hindu texts. Heck, I can say that I visited God too and when asked for proof, I say it was in a different dimension.

If we are talking about verified and substantiated physics, Prophet PBUH traveled to heavens and came back. If we are regarding heavens as billions of miles away, only a person traveling at the speed of light could achieve that. In which case, due to time dilation, the time on earth would have passed thousands of years while the time for Prophet PBUH would have only passed a few minutes or hours.

Saying he went into a different dimension is a cop-out. We can say such answers for any miracle.

Lastly, the journey said that he was sleeping at Umm Hani’s house in Mecca when Isra happened.

Al-Isra’ wal-Mi'raj: The Miraculous Journeys | eArabic

Many extraordinary sights were witnessed by the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) on Isra and Miraj journey. It was also a test of faith for the Believers at the time.

earabic.io

You need to give a better reason for the Miraj journey.

Champ_Pal · Tuesday at 11:11 PM

LordJames said:
My Mistake & Apology

From Madinah (Saudi Arabia) to Jerusalem (about 1150 km).

From Jerusalem to beyond the 7 heavens (distance unknown).

@Champ_Pal has correctly pointed out my mistake and it should be this:

From Makkah (Saudi Arabia) to Jerusalem (about 1460 km).

From Jerusalem to beyond the 7 heavens (distance unknown).

It is a historical error on my part but makes no difference to the argument but is it my mistake and my error.

Thanks.

Your error makes a difference. It shows you don’t know the incident well. I remember you correcting me on something similar and when I said it does not change the argument in question, you said I did not know the subject matter. Now you are on the receiving end.
It’s not only that, he was at Umm Hani’s house.

Stewie · Tuesday at 11:11 PM

I think you need a better hobby than posting here, @Champ_Pal

LordJames · Tuesday at 11:16 PM

Champ_Pal said:
You are giving me some vague another dimension argument and calling it speculative physics and asking me to prove it using physics?

I don’t even know where to start.

If another dimension and speculative physics is applied to your argument, Hindus can apply the same to Hanuman’s leap to the outer space. But it got mocked by your brethren in the other thread.

The debate was on whether you can prove Miraj using science. If another dimension logic is used, we can apply it to authenticate every miracle and superhuman feats in Hindu texts. Heck, I can say that I visited God too and when asked for proof, I say it was in a different dimension.

If we are talking about verified and substantiated physics, Prophet PBUH traveled to heavens and came back. If we are regarding heavens as billions of miles away, only a person traveling at the speed of light could achieve that. In which case, due to time dilation, the time on earth would have passed thousands of years while the time for Prophet PBUH would have only passed a few minutes or hours.

Saying he went into a different dimension is a cop-out. We can say such answers for any miracle.

Lastly, the journey said that he was sleeping at Umm Hani’s house in Mecca when Isra happened.

Al-Isra’ wal-Mi'raj: The Miraculous Journeys | eArabic

Many extraordinary sights were witnessed by the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) on Isra and Miraj journey. It was also a test of faith for the Believers at the time.

earabic.io

You need to give a better reason for the Miraj journey.

Dear @Champ_Pal

This is possible because he entered another time dimension where time flowed differently and this is Speculative Physics.

Please refute the argument using Physics.
Please explain why it is impossible using Physics.

Please stick to the topic.

Not discussed anything about Hinduism or Hanuman or anything at all.

Please also explain what difference it makes to the incident if he was in Makkah or Madina? Provide evidence for your thoughts.

Thanks

Champ_Pal · Tuesday at 11:31 PM

LordJames said:
Dear @Champ_Pal

This is possible because he entered another time dimension where time flowed differently and this is Speculative Physics.

Please refute the argument using Physics.

Please explain why it is impossible using Physics.

Please stick to the topic.

Not discussed anything about Hinduism or Hanuman or anything at all.

Please also explain what difference it makes to the incident if he was in Makkah or Madina? Provide evidence for your thoughts.

Thanks

Was the farthest mosque he visited was in a different dimension or was it in our dimension?

LordJames · Tuesday at 11:37 PM

Champ_Pal said:
Was the farthest mosque he visited was in a different dimension or was it in our dimension?

Dear @Champ_Pal

Irrelevant question! Because we are not at the "Farthest Mosque" yet, we are at the beginning of the Journey, you will get to refute every point of view, right now here is the question again.

This is possible because he entered another time dimension where time flowed differently and this is Speculative Physics.

Please refute the argument using Physics.
Please explain why it is impossible using Physics.

Do you understand when provided an example with @KingKhanWC.

Please answer Yes/No? If you understand it extend it while taking "Time as a Dimension", if you don't understand it ask.

Please digest the information and ask relevant questions and provide reasons and state your reasons:

Science
Logic
Philosophy

Whatever your reasons are and explain your reason. I have given you a theory and reasons, refute it by providing evidence.

Thanks

Champ_Pal · Tuesday at 11:46 PM

@LordJames ,
Even if the Miraj happened in a different dimension, for Prophet to travel billions of miles, he still has to travel at the speed of light. Time dilation still applies and if he came back the same right from Miraj, the time on earth would have passed thousands and thousands of years.

I say you are clutching at straws and make no sense.

Your argument of completely different physics and laws happened when Miraj happened is possible if we talk about parallel universes according to string theory. But then we are talking about journey to Al Aqsa and to the highest heavens. Al Aqsa is in our universe and not in some parallel universe.

Explain to me physically how a human can travel to Jerusalem from Mecca and then proceed to highest heavens in this physical world. The story of Miraj is in detail in the link I posted. Prophet PBUH organs were removed and washed with holy zamzam water by angels.

Unless one has faith and belief none of these things are believable.

Tell me how Prophet PBUH travelled to Jerusalem. Was it in this dimension or some other dimension or parallel universe?

Champ_Pal · Tuesday at 11:47 PM

Ps - I don’t have time all day to post. If my responses are slow consider I am away.

LordJames · Tuesday at 11:58 PM

Champ_Pal said:
Was the farthest mosque he visited was in a different dimension or was it in our dimension?

Champ_Pal said:
@LordJames ,
Even if the Miraj happened in a different dimension, for Prophet to travel billions of miles, he still has to travel at the speed of light. Time dilation still applies and if he came back the same right from Miraj, the time on earth would have passed thousands and thousands of years.

I say you are clutching at straws and make no sense.

Your argument of completely different physics and laws happened when Miraj happened is possible if we talk about parallel universes according to string theory. But then we are talking about journey to Al Aqsa and to the highest heavens. Al Aqsa is in our universe and not in some parallel universe.

Explain to me physically how a human can travel to Jerusalem from Mecca and then proceed to highest heavens in this physical world. The story of Miraj is in detail in the link I posted. Prophet PBUH organs were removed and washed with holy zamzam water by angels.

Unless one has faith and belief none of these things are believable.

Tell me how Prophet PBUH travelled to Jerusalem. Was it in this dimension or some other dimension or parallel universe?

Dear @Champ_Pal

I am no hurry, take care of your family and everything else and reply at your convenience and in your time.

As stated multiple time, I have not got to anything else but it if helps get an answer from you, let me explain why your argument doesn't work!

You Provided this link: https://earabic.io/blog/al-isra-wal-miraj-the-miraculous-journeys

It is not my link but yours in this post.

Your provided information says:

Arriving at Al-Aqsa

Finally, the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) arrived in the holy city of Al-Quds (Jerusalem) and he said, ’When we reached Bait al-Maqdis [literally ‘the holy house’ another name for the Blessed Masjid Al-Aqsa] Gabriel (as) pointed with his finger causing a crack in the rock, and he tied the Buraq to it [at the western wall of the noble sanctuary]’ (Tirmidhi). Waiting inside were all 124,000 Prophets (as). Gabriel (as) led the Prophet (PBUH) to the front, and he (PBUH) led them all in prayer in this blessed space.

This is the map of Al-Aqsa (Farthest Mosque) compound today (2025), the "Masjid al-Buraq" is red is where Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon Him) stopped!

Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon Him) passed away in 632 AH
Muslims didn't conquer Jerusalem until 636 so there was no Mosque and no place to pray

Look at the picture and look at the space, can you see 120,000 in this space gathered let alone praying? In addition, these are all Prophets (meaning some of them have long passed away). Therefore this incident is not and cannot be in our time dimension.

Second Question for you:

Please provide evidence against your own information and prove that it happened in the same dimension of time.

Original Question for you:

This is possible because he entered another time dimension where time flowed differently and this is Speculative Physics.

Please refute the argument using Physics.
Please explain why it is impossible using Physics.

Do you understand when provided an example with @KingKhanWC.

Please answer Yes/No? If you understand it extend it while taking "Time as a Dimension", if you don't understand it ask.

Thanks

Champ_Pal · Wednesday at 12:37 AM

You keep referring to some example you have to Kkwc. If possible post it again.

Since you are saying the ones that prayed at the Al Aqsa mosque were prophets who were long dead, how can anyone disprove it? Did anyone in Jerusalem see it? Any independent eyewitnesses for it?

Let me tell you something. When you cook up unprovable stories by saying it happened in a different dimension, there is nothing to argue. It does not make whatever you said true. You are talking about something that is beyond physical laws. No human has ever gone beyond our 3 dimensional space. You are talking about higher dimensions and I can use the same logic to say that all Hindu deities are all miraculous and can do super human feats. You cannot disprove them. That doesn’t mean they are real.

Coming back again to your argument that the Miraj happened in alternate dimension, even if it happened , you do know that time dilation applies to higher dimensions too. Which means if the travel was indeed to highest heavens, the travel has to be done at the speed of light. Which means by the time Prophet PBUH had returned, the time on earth would have passed hundreds and thousands of years if not millions(depending on how long Prophet was gone).

Either way, your argument of alternate dimensions does not work. If the travel was done in parallel universes since string theory allows it, it means he visited everything in an alternate reality. He never visited al Aqsa in our universe.

You need to try harder. Just saying that he somehow went into some higher dimension does not suffice the proof. I explained to you both the higher dimension case along with parallel universe case in the above 2 paragraphs.

Hope you read it and answer if you can.

LordJames · Wednesday at 1:35 AM

Champ_Pal said:
You keep referring to some example you have to Kkwc. If possible post it again.

Dear @Champ

Example with @KingKhanWC.

The link is clickable, click and it will take you to the post. Do you understand it? When you understand it, add to this example "Dimension of Time"

Anything which you don't understand, ask and I will explain.

Champ_Pal said:
Since you are saying the ones that prayed at the Al Aqsa mosque were prophets who were long dead, how can anyone disprove it? Did anyone in Jerusalem see it? Any independent eyewitnesses for it?

Nobody saw it because they were in a different time dimension where time flowed differently and this is Speculative Physics.

Please refute the argument using Physics.
Please explain why it is impossible using Physics.

Disprove what I am saying using Science & Physics.

Champ_Pal said:
Coming back again to your argument that the Miraj happened in alternate dimension, even if it happened , you do know that time dilation applies to higher dimensions too. Which means if the travel was indeed to highest heavens, the travel has to be done at the speed of light. Which means by the time Prophet PBUH had returned, the time on earth would have passed hundreds and thousands of years if not millions(depending on how long Prophet was gone).

Either way, your argument of alternate dimensions does not work. If the travel was done in parallel universes since string theory allows it, it means he visited everything in an alternate reality. He never visited al Aqsa in our universe.

I am saying "another time" while you are saying "Alternate Dimension" and "Higher Dimension"

Click the example
Add "Time as Dimension"
Understand what is being said.

Space is different
Time is different

Do you understand that? Someone can be in the same space but in a different time, do you get that?

Again read the example with @KingKhanWC and then add time as a "Dimension", its there to make you understand.

Once again: Not talked about travel, donkey, Buraq or anything.

Refute me
Provide evidence

Don't just say words but provide evidence so tell me why my evidence is wrong? Here is the same discussion in Hindi from a Philosophical perspective.

Prove me wrong from logic, Philosophy or Science. What is the basis of your refutation?

Please read and realize that links are in Green and I am providing you with links for everything.

Thanks

LordJames · Wednesday at 1:47 AM

Dear @Champ_Pal

Example with @KingKhanWC.

If you cannot understand it, reply with the name of your city and I will type the whole thing again for you.

Thanks

Champ_Pal · Wednesday at 2:00 AM

LordJames said:
Dear @Champ

Example with @KingKhanWC.

The link is clickable, click and it will take you to the post. Do you understand it? When you understand it, add to this example "Dimension of Time"

Anything which you don't understand, ask and I will explain.

I will check that

Nobody saw it because they were in a different time dimension where time flowed differently and this is Speculative Physics.

Please refute the argument using Physics.

Please explain why it is impossible using Physics.

Disprove what I am saying using Science & Physics.
Neither Quran or the Hadith talk about any alternate dimension. If it happened, it would have been mentioned. Speculative physics has no physical proof. It exists only in principles.

LordJames said:
I am saying "another time" while you are saying "Alternate Dimension" and "Higher Dimension"

Click the example

Add "Time as Dimension"

Understand what is being said.

Space is different

Time is different

Do you understand that? Someone can be in the same space but in a different time, do you get that?

So what you are saying the prayer along with all dead prophets who were risen happened in our universe but at some alternate time? What does it even mean? If it happened in our space, somebody would have seen it. No independently verified source mentions any such event. I wonder why???

LordJames said:
Again read the example with @KingKhanWC and then add time as a "Dimension", its there to make you understand.

Once again: Not talked about travel, donkey, Buraq or anything.

Refute me

Provide evidence

Don't just say words but provide evidence so tell me why my evidence is wrong? Here is the same discussion in Hindi from a Philosophical perspective.

Prove me wrong from logic, Philosophy or Science. What is the basis of your refutation?

Please read and realize that links are in Green and I am providing you with links for everything.

Thanks

I have already proved 2 cases of higher time dimension as well as parallel universe case.

Again, for your benefit, I will try one last time.
-> If it happened in an alternate or different time dimension and no one saw it, traveling to highest heaven which could be billions of miles away requires travel at speed of light. Time dilation applies and by the time Prophet PBUH had returned, millions of years may have passed on earth.

Your logic of alternate time dimension travel does not work here. You need to come up with a better argument.

If I say, I or @RexRex visited God and no one saw us because we were in an alternate time dimension, would you believe us?

LordJames · Wednesday at 2:03 AM

Champ_Pal said:
View attachment 157226

So what you are saying the prayer along with all dead prophets who were risen happened in our universe but at some alternate time? What does it even mean? If it happened in our space, somebody would have seen it. No independently verified source mentions any such event. I wonder why???

I have already proved 2 cases of higher time dimension as well as parallel universe case.

Again, for your benefit, I will try one last time.
-> If it happened in an alternate or different time dimension and no one saw it, traveling to highest heaven which could be billions of miles away requires travel at speed of light. Time dilation applies and by the time Prophet PBUH had returned, millions of years may have passed on earth.
View attachment 157227

Your logic of alternate time dimension travel does not work here. You need to come up with a better argument.

If I say, I or @RexRex visited God and no one saw us because we were in an alternate time dimension, would you believe us?

Dear @Champ_Pal

Before I address your post, this is the 4th time asking.

Example with @KingKhanWC.

Have you got the example and understood it, Yes or No? Once you understand it, are you able to then understand "Time as a Dimension"?

At least reply Yes or No so I can try to get you to understand what is being said.

It is my promise to address your post.

Thanks

Champ_Pal · Wednesday at 2:14 AM

LordJames said:
Dear @Champ_Pal

Before I address your post, this is the 4th time asking.

Example with @KingKhanWC.

Have you got the example and understood it, Yes or No? Once you understand it, are you able to then understand "Time as a Dimension"?

At least reply Yes or No so I can try to get you to understand what is being said.

It is my promise to address your post.

Thanks

I will read it and respond. Most of your posts talk about alternate time dimensions etc.... I call it clutching at straws. Let me tell you again. If the journey was indeed in an alternate time dimension, Quran would have mentioned it. But it did not. which means it is all made up. None of the Hadiths or the Life story of Prophet PBUH mentions anything about time dilation. Your posts are hilarious though. Keep them coming.

I will dissect the example you mentioned soon. Bit busy right now.

LordJames · Wednesday at 2:19 AM

Champ_Pal said:
I will read it and respond. Most of your posts talk about alternate time dimensions etc.... I call it clutching at straws. Let me tell you again. If the journey was indeed in an alternate time dimension, Quran would have mentioned it. But it did not. which means it is all made up. None of the Hadiths or the Life story of Prophet PBUH mentions anything about time dilation. Your posts are hilarious though. Keep them coming.

I will dissect the example you mentioned soon. Bit busy right now.

Dear @Champ_Pal

Please don't post without reading and understanding. I am reading everything you write as best as I can. Where I don't understand something I am asking you to explain yourself.

It is only fair and courteous that you do the same. This has been a long time and its in the first post

I have provided an example with @KingKhanWC.

Read it
Understand it
Then imagine "Time as a Dimension" and understand it

Once again: If you don't understand or disagree ask it.

(Repeated Promises):

I will discuss the Buraq and everything else
I will also discuss your posts about Speculative Physics.

Please read, understand and discuss what is being written. AI won't help you with basics and it is a good idea to actually understand what you are posting before copy/paste.

Thanks

Champ_Pal · Wednesday at 4:05 AM

LordJames said:
Dear @Champ_Pal

Please don't post without reading and understanding. I am reading everything you write as best as I can. Where I don't understand something I am asking you to explain yourself.

It is only fair and courteous that you do the same. This has been a long time and its in the first post

I have provided an example with @KingKhanWC.

Read it

Understand it

Then imagine "Time as a Dimension" and understand it

Once again: If you don't understand or disagree ask it.

(Repeated Promises):

I will discuss the Buraq and everything else

I will also discuss your posts about Speculative Physics.

Please read, understand and discuss what is being written. AI won't help you with basics and it is a good idea to actually understand what you are posting before copy/paste.

Thanks

Stick to one thread. We are discussing the topic of Miraj in a thread specifically opened for that. I am not going to post the same in multiple threads.

KingKhanWC · Wednesday at 12:28 PM

At the time of the Miraj, the locals who were more anti Muslim than champ pal or modi could ever be, were also laughing and mocking the Prophet(pbuh) but he then described the route perfectly pointing out landmarks etc. They were stunned as he neve travelled to these lands.

Stewie · Wednesday at 2:17 PM

My personal take is that when it comes to matters of faith, its foolish to try and use science and tech and logic to make sense of it and furthermore to try and convince someone who has pre-disposed bias.

I don't think this exercise will get us anywhere. Hindus will never believe anything Muslims have to say on the subject just like we wont believe any of their myths from their books.

KingKhanWC · Wednesday at 2:55 PM

Stewie said:
My personal take is that when it comes to matters of faith, its foolish to try and use science and tech and logic to make sense of it and furthermore to try and convince someone who has pre-disposed bias.

I don't think this exercise will get us anywhere. Hindus will never believe anything Muslims have to say on the subject just like we wont believe any of their myths from their books.

Certains events are simply beliefs but there are other beliefs which science does confirm or logic which is logical or not. E.g Islam - 1 - God - all powerful , doesnt need anyone etc. Makes sense. Hinduism - Everything can be God - a tree or a fly cannot create a world, this is illogical as we know their limitations.

Stewie · Wednesday at 3:12 PM

KingKhanWC said:
Certains events are simply beliefs but there are other beliefs which science does confirm or logic which is logical or not. E.g Islam - 1 - God - all powerful , doesnt need anyone etc. Makes sense. Hinduism - Everything can be God - a tree or a fly cannot create a world, this is illogical as we know their limitations.

I think that view sums it up nicely what I was trying to say. We have trouble accepting each others views and poke holes when we can. But in a lot of ways all human beings have more similarity than we differ, but due to our bias, our sub-concious minds do not want to accept the similarities.

A Sufi poet writes: "mujhey her cheez me khuda Nazar ata hai, usski her banai hui cheez meein usski gawahi Nazar aati hai" and we accept that but when Hindus say the same, we think its ridiculous and outrageous. For instance, the example you used, you are thinking from a Muslim's view that Hindus have made a tree or rock an actual manifestation of God, and the actual Hindu set of spiritual beliefs will tell you that's not the case even though some modern day Hindus will bow down to objects and animals thinking they are indeed gods, but that was/is not what some Hindus will tell you. The objects, animals may simply stand in as symbolism or representation of the "QUALITIES" of God. So there is a marked difference there in the underlying concept - but its true, that our beliefs are difficult for each other to understand since the underlying concepts are so utterly different.

So we joke and poke holes but I am sure we all know deep inside with these discussions, we are not going anywhere. Perhaps they are meant to convince ourselves more than they are to convince the other side.

LordJames · Wednesday at 4:38 PM

Champ_Pal said:
Stick to one thread. We are discussing the topic of Miraj in a thread specifically opened for that. I am not going to post the same in multiple threads.

Sounds good.

LordJames · Wednesday at 4:54 PM

KingKhanWC said:
Certains events are simply beliefs but there are other beliefs which science does confirm or logic which is logical or not. E.g Islam - 1 - God - all powerful , doesnt need anyone etc. Makes sense. Hinduism - Everything can be God - a tree or a fly cannot create a world, this is illogical as we know their limitations.

You are right and this enough for us.

[17:1] Glorious is He Who made his servant travel by night from Al-Masjid-ul-Harām to Al-Masjid-ul-AqSā whose environs We have blessed, so that We let him see some of Our signs. Surely, He is the All-Hearing, the All- Seeing.

Stewie said:
My personal take is that when it comes to matters of faith, its foolish to try and use science and tech and logic to make sense of it and furthermore to try and convince someone who has pre-disposed bias.

I don't think this exercise will get us anywhere. Hindus will never believe anything Muslims have to say on the subject just like we wont believe any of their myths from their books.

Not expecting or asking @Champ_Pal to believe, asking him to prove that it is impossible and provide irrefutable evidence to prove the impossibility.

Philosophical Evidence:

God is all powerful and he commands time space and can bend the rules as God sees fit.

This argument cannot be proven to be impossible, philosophically.

Scientific Evidence:

Time (or the Temporal) Dimension is the 4th fabric in spacetime continuum along with the 3 spatial dimensions which we experience in our daily lives (i.e. length, width and Height). The way the incident of Israʾ and Miʿraj is described (preparation, journey, speed, lights passing etc) it is possible by today's understanding of physics.

The narrations do not say that Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon Him) just traveled, there are dozens of details with it.

This argument also cannot be proven to be impossible, philosophically.

If @Champ_Pal doesn't think that it is impossible then there is nothing to argue because nobody can make anyone believe anything.

LordJames · Wednesday at 5:24 PM

In fact @Stewie & @KingKhanWC it is arrogance and the height of bigotry to think that any human can make another human believe anything. It is not the domain of humans.

May Allah Ta'ala save us from thoughts (Ameen)

Also humans have freewill to believe in what they wish to believe in.

His argument (the way it is framed) seems to be that he thinks that it is impossible and he needs to prove it using the knowledge which we have at our disposal today.

If @Champ_Pal says that it is impossible because his heart and mind don't accept it...it is not a valid argument but also his personal choice and he is well within his rights to believe that, although he can't prove it (to others) using any evidence.

Then as per the deal, I will ask a question and he needs to use the same principles and arguments which I used to prove his belief in "No God and No Creator".

[2:256] Let there be no compulsion in religion, for the truth stands out clearly from falsehood.

@Champ_Pal and all others have the right to believe in what they wish to believe in and we will protect their right and protect their places of worship and their way of worship as per our religion and it is an obligation upon us to protect them, their religion and places of worship.

[22:40] They are˺ those who have been expelled from their homes for no reason other than proclaiming: “Our Lord is Allah.” Had Allah not repelled ˹the aggression of˺ some people by means of others, destruction would have surely claimed monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques in which Allah’s Name is often mentioned. Allah will certainly help those who stand up for Him. Allah is truly All-Powerful, Almighty

Stewie · Wednesday at 5:30 PM

LordJames said:
In fact @Stewie & @KingKhanWC it is arrogance and the height of bigotry to think that any human can make another human believe anything. It is not the domain of humans.

May Allah Ta'ala save us from thoughts (Ameen)

Also humans have freewill to believe in what they wish to believe in.

His argument (the way it is framed) seems to be that he thinks that it is impossible and he needs to prove it using the knowledge which we have at our disposal today.

If @Champ_Pal says that it is impossible because his heart and mind don't accept it...it is not a valid argument but also his personal choice and he is well within his rights to believe that, although he can't prove it (to others) using any evidence.

Then as per the deal, I will ask a question and he needs to use the same principles and arguments which I used to prove his belief in "No God and No Creator".

[2:256] Let there be no compulsion in religion, for the truth stands out clearly from falsehood.

@Champ_Pal and all others have the right to believe in what they wish to believe in and we will protect their right and protect their places of worship and their way of worship as per our religion and it is an obligation upon us to protect them, their religion and places of worship.

[22:40] They are˺ those who have been expelled from their homes for no reason other than proclaiming: “Our Lord is Allah.” Had Allah not repelled ˹the aggression of˺ some people by means of others, destruction would have surely claimed monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques in which Allah’s Name is often mentioned. Allah will certainly help those who stand up for Him. Allah is truly All-Powerful, Almighty

I don't know what to make of your statement. Muhammad PBUH was a human and he was able to convince other humans of the truth. We are all encouraged to spread the word of God, why would God want us to do it if it was not our domain?

LordJames · Wednesday at 5:43 PM

Stewie said:
I don't know what to make of your statement. Muhammad PBUH was a human and he was able to convince other humans of the truth. We are all encouraged to spread the word of God, why would God want us to do it if it was not our domain?

Convincing and guiding are two separate issues.

[28:56] Indeed, [O Muḥammad], you do not guide whom you like, but Allāh guides whom He wills. And He is most knowing of the [rightly] guided.

No human can make another human believe

Humans can convince someone
Humans can win in a debate
Humans can convincingly destroy another argument
But Humans cannot make another Human believe

Belief is a matter of the heart and hearts are controlled by Allah Ta'ala.

Please let me know if I am mistaken.

KingKhanWC · Wednesday at 5:49 PM

LordJames said:
In fact @Stewie & @KingKhanWC it is arrogance and the height of bigotry to think that any human can make another human believe anything. It is not the domain of humans.

May Allah Ta'ala save us from thoughts (Ameen)

Also humans have freewill to believe in what they wish to believe in.

His argument (the way it is framed) seems to be that he thinks that it is impossible and he needs to prove it using the knowledge which we have at our disposal today.

If @Champ_Pal says that it is impossible because his heart and mind don't accept it...it is not a valid argument but also his personal choice and he is well within his rights to believe that, although he can't prove it (to others) using any evidence.

Then as per the deal, I will ask a question and he needs to use the same principles and arguments which I used to prove his belief in "No God and No Creator".

[2:256] Let there be no compulsion in religion, for the truth stands out clearly from falsehood.

@Champ_Pal and all others have the right to believe in what they wish to believe in and we will protect their right and protect their places of worship and their way of worship as per our religion and it is an obligation upon us to protect them, their religion and places of worship.

[22:40] They are˺ those who have been expelled from their homes for no reason other than proclaiming: “Our Lord is Allah.” Had Allah not repelled ˹the aggression of˺ some people by means of others, destruction would have surely claimed monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques in which Allah’s Name is often mentioned. Allah will certainly help those who stand up for Him. Allah is truly All-Powerful, Almighty

Ive said it before on here. There is NO such thing as an Atheist. Put Richard Dawkins or any hardcore atheist in a room, lock them up and walk away. Give them one day, 3 days, 1 week, sooner or later they will ask for help from a higher power. There is a beautiful verse in the Quran which points this. Its been a long day so cant recall it at the top off my head atm.

Champ_Pal · Wednesday at 7:27 PM

LordJames said:
Convincing and guiding are two separate issues.

[28:56] Indeed, [O Muḥammad], you do not guide whom you like, but Allāh guides whom He wills. And He is most knowing of the [rightly] guided.

No human can make another human believe

Humans can convince someone

Humans can win in a debate

Humans can convincingly destroy another argument

But Humans cannot make another Human believe

Belief is a matter of the heart and hearts are controlled by Allah Ta'ala.

Please let me know if I am mistaken.

Is this a coping mechanism for the lack of scientific evidence you said you would provide for the Night Journey?

True, no one can make others believe. But force can make people pretend they believe. If kids are indoctrinated from childhood with a certain belief system, they will end up following the same when they are adults. This is why vast majority of people follow the religion and faith of their parents.

Champ_Pal · Wednesday at 7:29 PM

KingKhanWC said:
Ive said it before on here. There is NO such thing as an Atheist. Put Richard Dawkins or any hardcore atheist in a room, lock them up and walk away. Give them one day, 3 days, 1 week, sooner or later they will ask for help from a higher power. There is a beautiful verse in the Quran which points this. Its been a long day so cant recall it at the top off my head atm.

Sure, humans are vulnerable and afraid of death. It can make people do things that they normally would not do. Just because you put someone in a life or death situation and they pray to God for relief does not prove the existence of a God. When it comes to life or death situations, logic goes for a toss. Survival becomes the most important thing in life.

LordJames · Wednesday at 7:31 PM

Champ_Pal said:
Is this a coping mechanism for the lack of scientific evidence you said you would provide for the Night Journey?

True, no one can make others believe. But force can make people pretend they believe. If kids are indoctrinated from childhood with a certain belief system, they will end up following the same when they are adults. This is why vast majority of people follow the religion and faith of their parents.

No idea what you mean and the post was not directed at you.

Waiting for you to re-engage in the discussion as you promised that you will now read, understand and then respond to the link which has been provided.

Please take your time as you said you were busy, family and other things come first.

Champ_Pal · Wednesday at 7:32 PM

LordJames said:
In fact @Stewie & @KingKhanWC it is arrogance and the height of bigotry to think that any human can make another human believe anything. It is not the domain of humans.

May Allah Ta'ala save us from thoughts (Ameen)

Also humans have freewill to believe in what they wish to believe in.

His argument (the way it is framed) seems to be that he thinks that it is impossible and he needs to prove it using the knowledge which we have at our disposal today.

If @Champ_Pal says that it is impossible because his heart and mind don't accept it...it is not a valid argument but also his personal choice and he is well within his rights to believe that, although he can't prove it (to others) using any evidence.

Then as per the deal, I will ask a question and he needs to use the same principles and arguments which I used to prove his belief in "No God and No Creator".

[2:256] Let there be no compulsion in religion, for the truth stands out clearly from falsehood.

@Champ_Pal and all others have the right to believe in what they wish to believe in and we will protect their right and protect their places of worship and their way of worship as per our religion and it is an obligation upon us to protect them, their religion and places of worship.

[22:40] They are˺ those who have been expelled from their homes for no reason other than proclaiming: “Our Lord is Allah.” Had Allah not repelled ˹the aggression of˺ some people by means of others, destruction would have surely claimed monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques in which Allah’s Name is often mentioned. Allah will certainly help those who stand up for Him. Allah is truly All-Powerful, Almighty

I like your post.

Now you are entering into philosophy which I will never debate with anyone. I can only debate on things that is physically measurable and with in the realm of science.

Champ_Pal · Wednesday at 7:35 PM

LordJames said:
No idea what you mean and the post was not directed at you.

Waiting for you to re-engage in the discussion as you promised that you will now read, understand and then respond to the link which has been provided.

Please take your time as you said you were busy, family and other things come first.

I already responded to that example you posted. That has nothing to do with time dilation and alternate time dimensions that you mentioned. All you are saying there is, someone cannot meet or see or feel things if they are not there at the right place at the right time. It has nothing to do with time dilation or alternate time dimensions.

I already proved that Miraj happened in an alternate time dimension, even there time dilation applies. Time would have slowed down to Prophet PBUH while for others, it would have passed thousands and millions of years.

You need to try again with a better argument.

LordJames · Wednesday at 7:40 PM

Champ_Pal said:
I already responded to that example you posted. That has nothing to do with time dilation and alternate time dimensions that you mentioned. All you are saying there is, someone cannot meet or see or feel things if they are not there at the right place at the right time. It has nothing to do with time dilation or alternate time dimensions.

I already proved that Miraj happened in an alternate time dimension, even there time dilation applies. Time would have slowed down to Prophet PBUH while for others, it would have passed thousands and millions of years.

You need to try again with a better argument.

Lets start again because you have not read or understood anything.

Space Time 101:

@Champ_Pal lives in London
@LordJames lives in Chicago

But...

@Champ_Pal visits NYC Airport, Terminal 2 and stands in front of Gate F32 on August 27, 2025 at 10:50 (local time) and leaves after 15 minutes
@LordJames visits NYC Airport, Terminal 2 and stands in front of Gate F32 on August 27, 2025 at 14:50 (local time) and leaves after 15 minutes

They don't meet although they are at the same physical space (or location).

Do you agree or disagree?

Thanks

Champ_Pal · Wednesday at 7:42 PM

LordJames said:
Lets start again because you have not read or understood anything.

Space Time 101:

@Champ_Pal lives in London
@LordJames lives in Chicago

But...

@Champ_Pal visits NYC Airport, Terminal 2 and stands in front of Gate F32 on August 27, 2025 at 10:50 (local time) and leaves after 15 minutes

@LordJames visits NYC Airport, Terminal 2 and stands in front of Gate F32 on August 27, 2025 at 14:50 (local time) and leaves after 15 minutes

They don't meet although they are at the same physical space (or location).

Do you agree or disagree?

Thanks

Yes. What does it prove?

LordJames · Wednesday at 8:04 PM

LordJames said:
Lets start again because you have not read or understood anything.

Space Time 101:

@Champ_Pal lives in London
@LordJames lives in Chicago

But...

@Champ_Pal visits NYC Airport, Terminal 2 and stands in front of Gate F32 on August 27, 2025 at 10:50 (local time) and leaves after 15 minutes

@LordJames visits NYC Airport, Terminal 2 and stands in front of Gate F32 on August 27, 2025 at 14:50 (local time) and leaves after 15 minutes

They don't meet although they are at the same physical space (or location).

Do you agree or disagree?

Thanks

Champ_Pal said:
Yes. What does it prove?

Patience Brother @Champ_Pal, build on your knowledge...

Good and Thanks for taking the time to work with me.

Now moving forward from the basic example and nothing to do with Meraj but still discussing science.

Time is not only a Dimension but different to how we perceive space.

I think you understand this basic premise from about 100 years ago.

Champ_Pal said:
I already responded to that example you posted. That has nothing to do with time dilation and alternate time dimensions that you mentioned. All you are saying there is, someone cannot meet or see or feel things if they are not there at the right place at the right time. It has nothing to do with time dilation or alternate time dimensions.

I already proved that Miraj happened in an alternate time dimension, even there time dilation applies. Time would have slowed down to Prophet PBUH while for others, it would have passed thousands and millions of years.

You need to try again with a better argument.

However, you are still perceiving time dilation in our current time dimension and it is true in your assumption:

Astronaut flying at "near the speed of light" will experience minutes
While someone on Earth will experience decades

Here is how your assumption is wrong because we know that time has multiple Dimensions 2 to be precise (at least)

In fact, the most modern discovery is that Time has 3 Dimensions

Mathematical Viability of Multiple Time Dimensions

Now I have quoted you theories, studies and mathematical calculations about multi-dimensional time, please provide evidence to refute these studies conclusively.

Here is the simpler explanation in laymen terms

Time Has Three Dimensions, New Theory Says

What this means is that 2 people can/experience time differently (not just standard) faster/slower as we did 100 years ago.

Btw, this is not new but we have mathematical equations for Particle Physics.

Technics 1210 · Wednesday at 8:12 PM

I'm afraid you've fallen right into the hands of the cult trap, @LordJames

The cult cannot defend their belief, they attack our beliefs, and this thread, your thread, is a knee jerk reaction in defence of the cult attack on Islam.

Why give the cult any form of attention or legitimacy?

You are trying to convince pretend atheists that your belief is better than theirs when there is no need to defend Islam.

Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world.

What more do you want?

Suleiman · Wednesday at 8:19 PM

Thing is science is man’s attempt to understand God’s design, and many times that attempt is lagging 50, 100, 200+ years in terms of ever catching up to understanding it so much so that man may just go “well that’s impossible because I cannot imagine it based on present “research” “

Think about 1400 years ago, traveling to the moon let alone to Al Quds (Jerusalem) from Mecca in a night, would be considering impossible logically thinking from POV of the people back then.

Today we have drones and jets that can cover that distance easily in fractions of time of what it took to cover that distance back then.

Back then going to another celestial body seemed impossible.

60 odd years ago some American did it as well allegedly and so the non religious masses are willing to accept it’s possible.

Quran says the universe is expanding. Non Muslims 1400 or even 500 years ago may say “no but how is that possible” etc etc Nauzubillah

Scientists didn’t realize this until the 20th century aka very recently.

So man is always lagging behind and always will if he tries to logic his way out of it, and even then only if Allah allows him to understand it with his logical brain otherwise Allah can ensure that man delving into science with his own man made filters and metrics amounts to zero understanding if Allah so wills.

So first and foremost we always believe in these miracles because Allah Himself said so and ordered us to believe and follow Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him no matter what.

If science agrees, cool. If it doesn’t, no worries. Neither has any bearing on the validity of the miracles. They are miracles

That is my understanding, may Allah forgive me if I have erred.

Technics 1210 · Wednesday at 8:25 PM

Suleiman said:
Thing is science is man’s attempt to understand God’s design, and many times that attempt is lagging 50, 100, 200+ years in terms of ever catching up to understanding it so much so that man may just go “well that’s impossible because I cannot imagine it based on present “research” “

Think about 1400 years ago, traveling to the moon let alone to Al Quds (Jerusalem) from Mecca in a night, would be considering impossible logically thinking from POV of the people back then.

Today we have drones and jets that can cover that distance easily in fractions of time of what it took to cover that distance back then.

Back then going to another celestial body seemed impossible.

60 odd years ago some American did it as well allegedly and so the non religious masses are willing to accept it’s possible.

Quran says the universe is expanding.

Scientists didn’t realize this until the 20th century aka very recently.

So man is always lagging behind and always will if he tries to logic his way out of it, and even then only if Allah allows him to understand it with his logical brain otherwise Allah can ensure that man delving into science with his own man made filters and metrics amounts to zero understanding if Allah so wills.

So first and foremost we always believe in these miracles because Allah Himself said so and ordered us to believe and follow Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him no matter what.

If science agrees, cool. If it doesn’t, no worries. Neither has any bearing on the validity of the miracles. They are miracles

That is my understanding, may Allah forgive me if I have erred.

Science is a METHOD of discovery and 100% based on observation. Science is not the truth. Science must be falsifiable.

The Atheist will woefully attempt to explain all existence in terms of matter, chance, and time, and call it science. Bankrupt ideology. Bin it. Shred it. Burn it.

We know that Empathy, Morals, and even Memory, cannot be quantified in materialistic terms - matter, chance, and time.

We know that Meta-Physics, the use of mathematics can be used to prove the unseen.

The doubters can take their physical world, but they can never, ever, demonstrate, elucidate, or even remotely observe life from non-animate matter to animate matter.

These materialistic numpties get pistol-whipped by their own perspective.

Champ_Pal · Wednesday at 8:31 PM

LordJames said:
Patience Brother @Champ_Pal, build on your knowledge...

Good and Thanks for taking the time to work with me.

Now moving forward from the basic example and nothing to do with Meraj but still discussing science.

Time is not only a Dimension but different to how we perceive space.

I think you understand this basic premise from about 100 years ago.

However, you are still perceiving time dilation in our current time dimension and it is true in your assumption:

Astronaut flying at "near the speed of light" will experience minutes

While someone on Earth will experience decades

Here is how your assumption is wrong because we know that time has multiple Dimensions 2 to be precise (at least)

Two-Time Physics (2T Physics)

F-Theory and Multiple Dimensions

In fact, the most modern discovery is that Time has 3 Dimensions

Mathematical Viability of Multiple Time Dimensions

Now I have quoted you theories, studies and mathematical calculations about multi-dimensional time, please provide evidence to refute these studies conclusively.

Here is the simpler explanation in laymen terms

Time Has Three Dimensions, New Theory Says

What this means is that 2 people can/experience time differently (not just standard) faster/slower as we did 100 years ago.

Btw, this is not new but we have mathematical equations for Particle Physics.

Just say what you want to say. We have been discussing this for over a day now. I am losing interest in this.

LordJames · Wednesday at 9:13 PM

LordJames said:
Patience Brother @Champ_Pal, build on your knowledge...

Good and Thanks for taking the time to work with me.

Now moving forward from the basic example and nothing to do with Meraj but still discussing science.

Time is not only a Dimension but different to how we perceive space.

I think you understand this basic premise from about 100 years ago.

However, you are still perceiving time dilation in our current time dimension and it is true in your assumption:

Astronaut flying at "near the speed of light" will experience minutes

While someone on Earth will experience decades

Here is how your assumption is wrong because we know that time has multiple Dimensions 2 to be precise (at least)

Two-Time Physics (2T Physics)

F-Theory and Multiple Dimensions

In fact, the most modern discovery is that Time has 3 Dimensions

Mathematical Viability of Multiple Time Dimensions

Now I have quoted you theories, studies and mathematical calculations about multi-dimensional time, please provide evidence to refute these studies conclusively.

Here is the simpler explanation in laymen terms

Time Has Three Dimensions, New Theory Says

What this means is that 2 people can/experience time differently (not just standard) faster/slower as we did 100 years ago.

Btw, this is not new but we have mathematical equations for Particle Physics.

@Champ_Pal

Refute this and provide evidence OR say that you accept this as valid science which it is.

We will then move on to other parts and link it.

Thanks

Champ_Pal said:
Just say what you want to say. We have been discussing this for over a day now. I am losing interest in this.

This is what a conversation looks like when a person is not allowed to troll or throw insults but actually provide evidence for what they are saying.

Thanks

anikrc1 · Wednesday at 9:45 PM

God's all powerful ness or not needs to be argued in the feamework of logic, not science. Science describes obsevable akd quantifiable phenomenon, God is neither of them accordong to most beliefs. Pure abstract logic doesn't have that shortcoming.

uppercut · Wednesday at 10:34 PM

LordJames said:
I will be hitting the report button wherever I see unnecessary posts, Emoji, Sarcasm, Disrespect and I will be providing evidence and also challenging and asking for evidence.

Thanks and let me know if you can help with this and confirm before we begin.

based on your past track record you might have to hit the report button on your own posts. Time will tell.

Champ_Pal · Wednesday at 10:45 PM

anikrc1 said:
God's all powerful ness or not needs to be argued in the feamework of logic, not science. Science describes obsevable akd quantifiable phenomenon, God is neither of them accordong to most beliefs. Pure abstract logic doesn't have that shortcoming.

Arguing about God or miracles wearing science glasses never works. Science is based on observation and irrefutable evidence.

One can argue the existence of God through logic. It will turn into an endless debate. India had a long tradition of Charvakas(Materialists/Atheists/Skeptics) arguing and challenging Vedas, Buddhism and Jainism. Indian society was always pluralistic and every philosophy was accepted. People and kings used to follow the paths they liked.

Champ_Pal · Wednesday at 10:47 PM

LordJames said:
@Champ_Pal

Refute this and provide evidence OR say that you accept this as valid science which it is.

We will then move on to other parts and link it.

Thanks

This is what a conversation looks like when a person is not allowed to troll or throw insults but actually provide evidence for what they are saying.

Thanks

What do you want me to refute? I already refuted your premise of alternate time dimension and time dilation. You need to come up with a better argument.

LordJames · Wednesday at 10:49 PM

Champ_Pal said:
What do you want me to refute? I already refuted your premise of alternate time dimension and time dilation. You need to come up with a better argument.

Dear Brother @Champ_Pal

Please refute the preliminary science or accept so we can move on.

You gave me your word that once you are done, I will get to ask you a question about your Atheist Belief.

I am patient and at your service to respond to your queries and take care of your family or whatever your needs are but get back into the argument so I get to have my turn.

Thanks

Champ_Pal · Wednesday at 11:09 PM

LordJames said:
Dear Brother @Champ_Pal

Please refute the preliminary science or accept so we can move on.

You gave me your word that once you are done, I will get to ask you a question about your Atheist Belief.

I am patient and at your service to respond to your queries and take care of your family or whatever your needs are but get back into the argument so I get to have my turn.

Thanks

Preliminary science as in your speculative science argument? If not, post the question here again and I promise I will answer it.

uppercut · Wednesday at 11:13 PM

anikrc1 said:
God's all powerful ness or not needs to be argued in the feamework of logic, not science. Science describes observable akd quantifiable phenomenon, God is neither of them accordong to most beliefs. Pure abstract logic doesn't have that shortcoming.

Not entirely true about the observable part though. I will give you some popular examples : Relativity , Gravity of Moon, Size of stars, temp on Sun's surface etc which are all calculated well before there were any sophisticated modern instruments that could independently observe, measure and confirm these scientific claims. Also there are few instances where science has had to accept flaws in what was widely accepted as scientific fact until better science came along.

LordJames · Wednesday at 11:28 PM

LordJames said:
Patience Brother @Champ_Pal, build on your knowledge...

Good and Thanks for taking the time to work with me.

Now moving forward from the basic example and nothing to do with Meraj but still discussing science.

Time is not only a Dimension but different to how we perceive space.

I think you understand this basic premise from about 100 years ago.

However, you are still perceiving time dilation in our current time dimension and it is true in your assumption:

Astronaut flying at "near the speed of light" will experience minutes

While someone on Earth will experience decades

Here is how your assumption is wrong because we know that time has multiple Dimensions 2 to be precise (at least)

Two-Time Physics (2T Physics)

F-Theory and Multiple Dimensions

In fact, the most modern discovery is that Time has 3 Dimensions

Mathematical Viability of Multiple Time Dimensions

Now I have quoted you theories, studies and mathematical calculations about multi-dimensional time, please provide evidence to refute these studies conclusively.

Here is the simpler explanation in laymen terms

Time Has Three Dimensions, New Theory Says

What this means is that 2 people can/experience time differently (not just standard) faster/slower as we did 100 years ago.

Btw, this is not new but we have mathematical equations for Particle Physics.

Dear @Champ_Pal

I had to ask to click on a link for over a day and then type out the argument again to discuss with you.

2nd Time:

Refute this and provide evidence OR say that you accept this as valid science which it is.

We will then move on to other parts and link it.

Thanks

Champ_Pal · Wednesday at 11:38 PM

LordJames said:
Dear @Champ_Pal

I had to ask to click on a link for over a day and then type out the argument again to discuss with you.

2nd Time:

Refute this and provide evidence OR say that you accept this as valid science which it is.

We will then move on to other parts and link it.

Thanks

I already responded with bold letters for that. Go to the post and read it.

LordJames · Wednesday at 11:50 PM

Champ_Pal said:
I already responded with bold letters for that. Go to the post and read it.

Dear @Champ_Pal

I am starting with an apology to you.

Here is my post.
Here is your first post (you are tired)
Here is your second response to @anikrc1
Here is your third response where you claim to have refuted something before I even posted
Here is your fourth response
Here is your fifth response that you have already answered it

I do have a problem with my eyes but where have responded to 1? it was posted today so there is nothing in response to it from you.

I have specifically discussed your time dilation argument today so do you agree with the post from today or do you disagree with the post from today and what is your evidence for disagreement?

Please point me to your response as I cannot see it.

We cannot move forward unless you agree or disagree (and state your grounds for disagreeing).

Thanks

Champ_Pal · Thursday at 12:02 AM

LordJames said:
Dear @Champ_Pal

I am starting with an apology to you.

Here is my post.

Here is your first post (you are tired)

Here is your second response to @anikrc1

Here is your third response where you claim to have refuted something before I even posted

Here is your fourth response

Here is your fifth response that you have already answered it

I do have a problem with my eyes but where have responded to 1? it was posted today so there is nothing in response to it from you.

I have specifically discussed your time dilation argument today so do you agree with the post from today or do you disagree with the post from today and what is your evidence for disagreement?

Please point me to your response as I cannot see it.

We cannot move forward unless you agree or disagree (and state your grounds for disagreeing).

Thanks

You are trying to prove something that I already disproved.

Anyways. Present the argument again. Too tired to go over all the posts. Hope you don’t mind.

LordJames · Thursday at 12:04 AM

Champ_Pal said:
You are trying to prove something that I already disproved.

Anyways. Present the argument again. Too tired to go over all the posts. Hope you don’t mind.

Where?

Champ_Pal · Thursday at 1:37 AM

LordJames said:
Where?

Read my posts about alternate time dimensions and time dilation. I posted it at least 10 times IIRC.

Now, present your case and I will respond. Do not refer to previous posts. Just reply to this post and I will respond to your case.

LordJames · Thursday at 1:46 AM

Champ_Pal said:
Read my posts about alternate time dimensions and time dilation. I posted it at least 10 times IIRC.

Now, present your case and I will respond. Do not refer to previous posts. Just reply to this post and I will respond to your case.

Dear @Champ_Pal

I posted today. Here is my post quoting theories and mathematical equations about more than singular time dimensions and addresses time dilation.
You posted your issues with time dilation yesterday
1. Then you made a promise to read yesterday
2. Then you made a post late yesterday

Please confirm that you answered my arguments over 24 hours in advance of me even posting them. If the links are different, please post them.

Thanks for your time.

Champ_Pal · Thursday at 2:30 AM

Since you are harping about this post, read my answers. I have basically answered your multiple time dimension part several times. But here you go again. Read my answers in bold.

LordJames said:
Patience Brother @Champ_Pal, build on your knowledge...

Sure. I will do my best to lessen your ignorance.

LordJames said:
Good and Thanks for taking the time to work with me.

Now moving forward from the basic example and nothing to do with Meraj but still discussing science.

Time is not only a Dimension but different to how we perceive space.

I think you understand this basic premise from about 100 years ago.

No Sheet Sherlock.... I never denied that.

LordJames said:
However, you are still perceiving time dilation in our current time dimension and it is true in your assumption:

Astronaut flying at "near the speed of light" will experience minutes

While someone on Earth will experience decades

You take any dimension of time, anyone who travels at the speed of light or at least close to it, time dilation happens.

LordJames said:
Here is how your assumption is wrong because we know that time has multiple Dimensions 2 to be precise (at least)

Two-Time Physics (2T Physics)

F-Theory and Multiple Dimensions

Time can theoretically have multiple dimensions. Though it is still not physically proven. But Einstein's Mathematical equations allows it. I never denied that. I never assumed that Prophet PBUH was traveling in our time dimension. I always assumed he was in a different time dimension. Even then, Time dilation happens when someone travels at near speed of light.

LordJames said:
In fact, the most modern discovery is that Time has 3 Dimensions

Mathematical Viability of Multiple Time Dimensions

Now I have quoted you theories, studies and mathematical calculations about multi-dimensional time, please provide evidence to refute these studies conclusively.

What are you on about? You are doing strawman here. I never denied there are multiple time dimensions. Even in an alternate time dimension, anyone traveling at the speed of light(assuming Prophet pbuh was traveling to highest heavens and came back the same night).

LordJames said:
Here is the simpler explanation in laymen terms

Time Has Three Dimensions, New Theory Says

What this means is that 2 people can/experience time differently (not just standard) faster/slower as we did 100 years ago.

Btw, this is not new but we have mathematical equations for Particle Physics.

Yes. 2 People can experience time differently. That is called Time dilation. It happens in which ever dimension you take. Anyone traveling at the speed of light will experience time dilation. Not only that, even Gravity effects time. If you travel to the nearest black hole or a Neutron star and park your spaceship for a few moments and comeback to earth, the time on Earth would have passed several centuries. It does not matter which dimension you travel in. Be it space or time.

Now don't say I did not understand your points and keep repeating the same points. Let me explain it to you one last time. No matter which dimension (space or time) you travel in, anyone traveling at the speed of light or approaching speed of light will experience time dilation. Its a physical phenomenon and no one can escape it. Its the law of universe.

Now will you put this topic to rest and come up with something new?

LordJames · Thursday at 2:46 AM

Champ_Pal said:
Since you are harping about this post, read my answers. I have basically answered your multiple time dimension part several times. But here you go again. Read my answers in bold.

Sure. I will do my best to lessen your ignorance.

No Sheet Sherlock.... I never denied that.

You take any dimension of time, anyone who travels at the speed of light or at least close to it, time dilation happens.

Time can theoretically have multiple dimensions. Though it is still not physically proven. But Einstein's Mathematical equations allows it. I never denied that. I never assumed that Prophet PBUH was traveling in our time dimension. I always assumed he was in a different time dimension. Even then, Time dilation happens when someone travels at near speed of light.

What are you on about? You are doing strawman here. I never denied there are multiple time dimensions. Even in an alternate time dimension, anyone traveling at the speed of light(assuming Prophet pbuh was traveling to highest heavens and came back the same night).

Yes. 2 People can experience time differently. That is called Time dilation. It happens in which ever dimension you take. Anyone traveling at the speed of light will experience time dilation. Not only that, even Gravity effects time. If you travel to the nearest black hole or a Neutron star and park your spaceship for a few moments and comeback to earth, the time on Earth would have passed several centuries. It does not matter which dimension you travel in. Be it space or time.

Now don't say I did not understand your points and keep repeating the same points. Let me explain it to you one last time. No matter which dimension (space or time) you travel in, anyone traveling at the speed of light or approaching speed of light will experience time dilation. Its a physical phenomenon and no one can escape it. Its the law of universe.

Now will you put this topic to rest and come up with something new?

Dear @Champ_Pal

Argument:

The argument is not also Time Dilation happens. Your argument in this post as worded by you is as follows:

If you are a person on Earth and you travel at the speed of light to outer space for a few hours and come back, your time may have passed only a few hours. But the time on Earth would have passed thousands of years if not millions.

Also underlined in the post above.

(Wrong) Assumption:
Your argument is based on a singular time dimension, we now know that time has multiple dimensions (2 at least)

In fact, the most modern discovery is that Time has 3 Dimensions

Mathematical Viability of Multiple Time Dimensions

In simple terms, the model is changing therefore the impact also changes.

Implication:

When time has taken to be multi-dimensional instead of singular then your assumption (underlined above) is no longer valid because the model of time has changed.

Please respond at your convenience to what is written and provide evidence.

Thanks

sweep_shot · Thursday at 3:07 AM

Mr. @Champ_Pal. Do not deflect. Try to give straight answers. :inti

All you are doing is going around circles.

Take a deep breathe. Clean your heart. Clean your mind. Read the questions and answer calmly and honestly.

Champ_Pal · Thursday at 3:38 AM

sweep_shot said:
Mr. @Champ_Pal. Do not deflect. Try to give straight answers.

All you are doing is going around circles.

Take a deep breathe. Clean your heart. Clean your mind. Read the questions and answer calmly and honestly.

I already answered several times. It’s not my problem if you or LordJanes does not want to accept the answer. I gave scientific answer.

Champ_Pal · Thursday at 4:11 AM

LordJames said:
Dear @Champ_Pal

Argument:

The argument is not also Time Dilation happens. Your argument in this post as worded by you is as follows:

If you are a person on Earth and you travel at the speed of light to outer space for a few hours and come back, your time may have passed only a few hours. But the time on Earth would have passed thousands of years if not millions.

Also underlined in the post above.

(Wrong) Assumption:
Your argument is based on a singular time dimension, we now know that time has multiple dimensions (2 at least)

Two-Time Physics (2T Physics)

F-Theory and Multiple Dimensions

In fact, the most modern discovery is that Time has 3 Dimensions

Mathematical Viability of Multiple Time Dimensions

In simple terms, the model is changing therefore the impact also changes.

Implication:

When time has taken to be multi-dimensional instead of singular then your assumption (underlined above) is no longer valid because the model of time has changed.

Please respond at your convenience to what is written and provide evidence.

Thanks

For the last time. I am not denying multi time dimensions and space dimensions. Einstein’s math equations allows them.

If Prophet pbuh travelled in an alternate time dimension at the speed of light and then switched to our current time dimension, it is impossible to tell how it effects the current time dimension. Prophet PBUh could end up in a parallel universe and will that universe obeys the laws of our universe? No one knows as it breaks the laws of physics. Scientifically it is impossible to predict. No one knows. Not with the current understanding of Physics. This is what I gathered from the research I have done. Read the screenshots I posted below.

The concept you are describing is speculative physics and has no basis in established physics.
Basically you need to smoke some good stuff to think over the possibilities and even then you will never arrive at any conclusion. It needs a leap of faith(blind) to think that someone travelled at speed of light in an alternate time dimension and switched back to our time dimension and everything was normal. So it cannot be proven with established physics. Even with speculative physics, you cannot arrive at any conclusion as it cannot predict the outcomes of such events. But it’s a fun topic to discuss the possibilities with friends at a party with psychedelics.
Now come with a new theory to prove scientifically that the night journey by prophet PBUh was real and not just a dream or spiritual.

BouncerGuy · Thursday at 6:30 AM

MOCKING EACH OTHER'S RELIGIONS IS NOT GONNA HELP ANYBODY HERE..

ENOUGH

LordJames · Thursday at 5:47 PM

Champ_Pal said:
For the last time. I am not denying multi time dimensions and space dimensions. Einstein’s math equations allows them.

If Prophet pbuh travelled in an alternate time dimension at the speed of light and then switched to our current time dimension, it is impossible to tell how it effects the current time dimension. Prophet PBUh could end up in a parallel universe and will that universe obeys the laws of our universe? No one knows as it breaks the laws of physics. Scientifically it is impossible to predict. No one knows. Not with the current understanding of Physics. This is what I gathered from the research I have done. Read the screenshots I posted below.

The concept you are describing is speculative physics and has no basis in established physics.
Basically you need to smoke some good stuff to think over the possibilities and even then you will never arrive at any conclusion. It needs a leap of faith(blind) to think that someone travelled at speed of light in an alternate time dimension and switched back to our time dimension and everything was normal. So it cannot be proven with established physics. Even with speculative physics, you cannot arrive at any conclusion as it cannot predict the outcomes of such events. But it’s a fun topic to discuss the possibilities with friends at a party with psychedelics.
Now come with a new theory to prove scientifically that the night journey by prophet PBUh was real and not just a dream or spiritual.
View attachment 157253
View attachment 157255

Dear @Champ_Pal

I appreciate you making the screen resolution bigger for my eyes but I read 2 days ago which you wrote. However, you neither read or understood what I wrote 24 hours later.

Please read and refute what is being written and ask for clarification if something is not clear and I will be happy to explain. I am going to clearly reference everything I say and provide links for you to check but I am after all human and due to my (age & eyes) I make mistakes so please point out errors which can be corrected.

I have not done screenshots I have given evidence, links and summarized the concepts for you to read, check, verify and refute.

Kletetschka 3D Time Concept (Peer Reviewed Scientific Paper)

This paper introduces a theoretical framework based on three-dimensional time, where the three temporal dimensions emerge from fundamental symmetry requirements. The necessity for exactly three temporal dimensions arises from observed quantum-classical-cosmological transitions that manifest at three distinct scales: Planck-scale quantum phenomena, interaction-scale processes, and cosmological evolution. These temporal scales directly generate three particle generations through eigenvalue equations of the temporal metric, naturally explaining both the number of generations and their mass hierarchy.

Where is a Theory in Physics?

A well-supported, comprehensive explanation of an aspect of the natural world, formed from a collection of verified facts, principles, and laws that are integrated into a self-consistent framework.

Where is a Framework in Physics?

A framework is a fundamental structure or set of rules, assumptions, and mathematical tools that provides a way to describe and analyze physical systems, guiding the formulation of theories and the solution of problems

Where is the Discussion?

I can argue with your AI screenshots but instead I have moved the argument and presented a theoretical model and gone even beyond and given a framework (see definitions above)

Why your AI screenshots are irrelevant?

They do not discuss a multidimensional time model.

Why your Time Dilation argument made 48 hours ago no longer works?

Because in your model time is linear (as proposed by Albert Einstein) but in Kletetschka 3D Time Concept time is not a single linear progression but has three independent axes, similar to space. In his model, time is the fundamental "canvas" of the universe, and space is a secondary effect.

Time Dilation is a concept is a concept from Albert Einstein [1879-1955] theories (specifically from Special relativity) and it is when we understood time to be a singular dimension.

We now know that time has multiple dimensions so the older concept of time dilation cannot be predicted because in a multidimensional time.

Why your argument about "Speculative" Physics is wrong?

Everything in Physics starts as a speculation but it needs to be grounded in Math and not Guesswork, let me give you 3 examples (from physics) of what started out as speculations and now are observable:

Atoms was a "speculation" by Democritus (around 460 BC)
Black Holes was "speculation" by Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
Gravitational waves were speculation Albert Einstein paper (1916) but observed almost 100 years later in 2015.

Suggested background reading for your argument:

Your argument (and old understanding) of Time Dilation is discussed in "A Brief History of Time" by Stephen Hawkins [1942-2018]

Wrote the Thesis in 1965 and this is his PhD Thesis (for laymen)
Published in 1983 (first edition)

I read this years ago as a boy but I am confident after all these years that it is one of the best books on the subject which you are describing.

What is your Job?

Please:

Read
Understand
Respond to what is being written
Prove it to be impossible!

If you cannot prove the theoretical model and framework to be impossible then it is in the realms of possibility.

Sherlock Holmes:

When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

Thanks for your time.

Champ_Pal · Thursday at 6:33 PM

LordJames said:
Dear @Champ_Pal

I appreciate you making the screen resolution bigger for my eyes but I read 2 days ago which you wrote. However, you neither read or understood what I wrote 24 hours later.

Please read and refute what is being written and ask for clarification if something is not clear and I will be happy to explain. I am going to clearly reference everything I say and provide links for you to check but I am after all human and due to my (age & eyes) I make mistakes so please point out errors which can be corrected.

I have not done screenshots I have given evidence, links and summarized the concepts for you to read, check, verify and refute.

Kletetschka 3D Time Concept (Peer Reviewed Scientific Paper)

This paper introduces a theoretical framework based on three-dimensional time, where the three temporal dimensions emerge from fundamental symmetry requirements. The necessity for exactly three temporal dimensions arises from observed quantum-classical-cosmological transitions that manifest at three distinct scales: Planck-scale quantum phenomena, interaction-scale processes, and cosmological evolution. These temporal scales directly generate three particle generations through eigenvalue equations of the temporal metric, naturally explaining both the number of generations and their mass hierarchy.

Where is a Theory in Physics?

A well-supported, comprehensive explanation of an aspect of the natural world, formed from a collection of verified facts, principles, and laws that are integrated into a self-consistent framework.

Where is a Framework in Physics?

A framework is a fundamental structure or set of rules, assumptions, and mathematical tools that provides a way to describe and analyze physical systems, guiding the formulation of theories and the solution of problems

Where is the Discussion?

I can argue with your AI screenshots but instead I have moved the argument and presented a theoretical model and gone even beyond and given a framework (see definitions above)

Why your AI screenshots are irrelevant?

They do not discuss a multidimensional time model.

Why your Time Dilation argument made 48 hours ago no longer works?

Because in your model time is linear (as proposed by Albert Einstein) but in Kletetschka 3D Time Concept time is not a single linear progression but has three independent axes, similar to space. In his model, time is the fundamental "canvas" of the universe, and space is a secondary effect.

Time Dilation is a concept is a concept from Albert Einstein [1879-1955] theories (specifically from Special relativity) and it is when we understood time to be a singular dimension.

We now know that time has multiple dimensions so the older concept of time dilation cannot be predicted because in a multidimensional time.

Why your argument about "Speculative" Physics is wrong?

Everything in Physics starts as a speculation but it needs to be grounded in Math and not Guesswork, let me give you 3 examples (from physics) of what started out as speculations and now are observable:

Atoms was a "speculation" by Democritus (around 460 BC)

Black Holes was "speculation" by Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

Gravitational waves were speculation Albert Einstein paper (1916) but observed almost 100 years later in 2015.

Suggested background reading for your argument:

Your argument (and old understanding) of Time Dilation is discussed in "A Brief History of Time" by Stephen Hawkins [1942-2018]

Wrote the Thesis in 1965 and this is his PhD Thesis (for laymen)

Published in 1983 (first edition)

I read this years ago as a boy but I am confident after all these years that it is one of the best books on the subject which you are describing.

What is your Job?

Please:

Read

Understand

Respond to what is being written

Prove it to be impossible!

If you cannot prove the theoretical model and framework to be impossible then it is in the realms of possibility.

Sherlock Holmes:

When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

Thanks for your time.

I never denied the existence of multiple time dimensions and I am not assuming time is linear. So you can put your lecture to rest.

However, in the case of Night Journey, if we assume Prophet PBUH went into an alternate time dimension and then travelled at the speed of light and then jumped back into our current time dimension does not work. Science does not know what the outcome will be. He might end up in a parallel universe and it can create paradoxes. There is no way Science can prove that everything would be normal when he came back from the alternate time dimension. The laws of physics will break if the event happened the way I described. It needs a leap of faith(blind) to accept that that is how the events happened. Which is not scientific.

I am not going to keep repeating the same again and again. You sound very similar to certain Islamic online debater by the name Nadir Ahmed.

Lastly, neither Quran nor hadith talk anything about alternate time dimensions. If it was, then it would have been noted. This is similar to Hindus claiming that Brahmastra used in Indian epics was a nuclear bomb. Because a nuclear bomb is the only one that can cause the destruction as described in Hindu Texts. Logic and science does not work like that.

Ok, just tell me this. Do you believe that Prophet PBUH traveled in an alternate time dimension, travelled to highest heaven, met God and Prophets and then jumped back to our current time dimension and everything was normal? Do you agree that this is how the events unfolded? Let me know.

LordJames · Thursday at 6:43 PM

Champ_Pal said:
I never denied the existence of multiple time dimensions and I am not assuming time is linear. So you can put your lecture to rest.

However, in the case of Night Journey, if we assume Prophet PBUH went into an alternate time dimension and then travelled at the speed of light and then jumped back into our current time dimension does not work. Science does not know what the outcome will be. He might end up in a parallel universe and it can create paradoxes. There is no way Science can prove that everything would be normal when he came back from the alternate time dimension. The laws of physics will break if the event happened the way I described. It needs a leap of faith(blind) to accept that that is how the events happened. Which is not scientific.

I am not going to keep repeating the same again and again. You sound very similar to certain Islamic online debater by the name Nadir Ahmed.

Lastly, neither Quran nor hadith talk anything about alternate time dimensions. If it was, then it would have been noted. This is similar to Hindus claiming that Brahmastra used in Indian epics was a nuclear bomb. Because a nuclear bomb is the only one that can cause the destruction as described in Hindu Texts. Logic and science does not work like that.

Ok, just tell me this. Do you believe that Prophet PBUH traveled in an alternate time dimension, travelled to highest heaven, met God and Prophets and then jumped back to our current time dimension and everything was normal? Do you agree that this is how the events unfolded? Let me know.

Dear @Champ_Pal

I am not saying time is linear, saying has multiple dimensions. The impact is that your theory of time dilation no longer works and your assumptions from 48 hours ago are no longer true. There is no leap of faith here at all.

No idea about the individual you are discussing and take your concerns about him to him.

Not discussed the underlined parts yet, at all.

Be Patient, digest the material and refute with evidence. Provide your reasons, your rationale and your evidence as I am.

Read the entire piece, again.

LordJames said:
Dear @Champ_Pal

I appreciate you making the screen resolution bigger for my eyes but I read 2 days ago which you wrote. However, you neither read or understood what I wrote 24 hours later.

Please read and refute what is being written and ask for clarification if something is not clear and I will be happy to explain. I am going to clearly reference everything I say and provide links for you to check but I am after all human and due to my (age & eyes) I make mistakes so please point out errors which can be corrected.

I have not done screenshots I have given evidence, links and summarized the concepts for you to read, check, verify and refute.

Kletetschka 3D Time Concept (Peer Reviewed Scientific Paper)

This paper introduces a theoretical framework based on three-dimensional time, where the three temporal dimensions emerge from fundamental symmetry requirements. The necessity for exactly three temporal dimensions arises from observed quantum-classical-cosmological transitions that manifest at three distinct scales: Planck-scale quantum phenomena, interaction-scale processes, and cosmological evolution. These temporal scales directly generate three particle generations through eigenvalue equations of the temporal metric, naturally explaining both the number of generations and their mass hierarchy.

Where is a Theory in Physics?

A well-supported, comprehensive explanation of an aspect of the natural world, formed from a collection of verified facts, principles, and laws that are integrated into a self-consistent framework.

Where is a Framework in Physics?

A framework is a fundamental structure or set of rules, assumptions, and mathematical tools that provides a way to describe and analyze physical systems, guiding the formulation of theories and the solution of problems

Where is the Discussion?

I can argue with your AI screenshots but instead I have moved the argument and presented a theoretical model and gone even beyond and given a framework (see definitions above)

Why your AI screenshots are irrelevant?

They do not discuss a multidimensional time model.

Why your Time Dilation argument made 48 hours ago no longer works?

Because in your model time is linear (as proposed by Albert Einstein) but in Kletetschka 3D Time Concept time is not a single linear progression but has three independent axes, similar to space. In his model, time is the fundamental "canvas" of the universe, and space is a secondary effect.

Time Dilation is a concept is a concept from Albert Einstein [1879-1955] theories (specifically from Special relativity) and it is when we understood time to be a singular dimension.

We now know that time has multiple dimensions so the older concept of time dilation cannot be predicted because in a multidimensional time.

Why your argument about "Speculative" Physics is wrong?

Everything in Physics starts as a speculation but it needs to be grounded in Math and not Guesswork, let me give you 3 examples (from physics) of what started out as speculations and now are observable:

Atoms was a "speculation" by Democritus (around 460 BC)

Black Holes was "speculation" by Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

Gravitational waves were speculation Albert Einstein paper (1916) but observed almost 100 years later in 2015.

Suggested background reading for your argument:

Your argument (and old understanding) of Time Dilation is discussed in "A Brief History of Time" by Stephen Hawkins [1942-2018]

Wrote the Thesis in 1965 and this is his PhD Thesis (for laymen)

Published in 1983 (first edition)

I read this years ago as a boy but I am confident after all these years that it is one of the best books on the subject which you are describing.

What is your Job?

Please:

Read

Understand

Respond to what is being written

Prove it to be impossible!

If you cannot prove the theoretical model and framework to be impossible then it is in the realms of possibility.

Sherlock Holmes:

When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

Thanks for your time.

Tell me why and provide evidence.

Champ_Pal · Thursday at 7:21 PM

LordJames said:
Dear @Champ_Pal

I am not saying time is linear, saying has multiple dimensions. The impact is that your theory of time dilation no longer works and your assumptions from 48 hours ago are no longer true. There is no leap of faith here at all.

No idea about the individual you are discussing and take your concerns about him to him.

Not discussed the underlined parts yet, at all.

Be Patient, digest the material and refute with evidence. Provide your reasons, your rationale and your evidence as I am.

Read the entire piece, again.

Tell me why and provide evidence.

I never disagreed that Time can have multiple dimensions. So Stop putting words into my mouth. It is speculative and has no base in reality.

Time dilation does happen no matter which time dimension you are in if you travel at the speed of light. It may be different due to different set of Universal constants like gravity.

You are posting theories that does not support the supposed jumping of time dimensions to achieve the night journey. One can technically jump time dimensions. However, the result of such action can lead to paradoxes and one might end up in a parallel universe. It is speculative Physics. There is no evidence that one can jump back to current dimension after traveling at speed of light in an alternate time dimension. I am tired of repeating the same over and over again. Science cannot confirm jumping of time dimensions after traveling at speed of light will all work smoothly. No one knows what kind of universal constants like Gravity work there.

Just because some speculative science theories allow for speculative alternate time dimensions does not mean one can travel in that and then comeback to our own time line as if nothing has happened.

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